Canada is Tariffable

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clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 25, 2017 - 06:09am PT
Canada allegedly has got subsidized wood to USA markets and this little American piggy has slapped it with tariffs(up to 24%). On the other hand when USA milk flows north it is sucked over the border with up to 292% tariffs.

All is not fair in trade. We should institute single-payer healthcare in retaliation.


Trump's tariffs come as the U.S., Canada and Mexico prepare to renegotiate NAFTA, the 1994 free trade agreement. Trump has directed almost all of his NAFTA criticism at Mexico, which makes this decision even more surprising.
When Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau visited Trump in February, Trump said he only expected to be "tweaking" the U.S.-Canada trade relationship.
The tariffs -- also called duties -- ranged from 3% to 24% on five specific Canadian lumber companies. For all other Canadian lumber companies, there's a nearly 20% tariff on exports to the US.
The five firms were: West Fraser Mills, Tolko Marketing and Sales, J.D. Irving, Canfor Corporation, and Resolute FP Canada. West Fraser Mills will pay the highest duty of 24%.
The duties were imposed to create a level playing field for American lumber companies.
U.S. lumber companies allege that Canadian firms are provided with unfair subsidies by the Canadian government.
Canadian exports of softwood lumber to the United States were valued at $5.6 billion last year, according to the Commerce Department.
The Commerce Department said the duties are preliminary and a final determination will be made in September. The U.S. Lumber Coalition, which represents the industry, said the duties will likely take effect starting sometime next week. The Commerce Department wasn't available to clarify.
The administration didn't say why they went after five specific firms or why the others had to pay the 20% tariff. The Commerce Department only said the duties were commensurate to the subsidies the companies received from the Canadian government.
Related: America's NAFTA nemesis: Canada, not Mexico
Canadian firms immediately denounced the decision.
"Managed trade only serves to benefit large timber barons in the U.S. while adversely impacting U.S. consumers and millions of hard-working Americans in the housing sector," a spokesperson for Resolute said in a statement. One firm declined to comment and three others didn't immediately respond.
Canadian leaders also criticized the move.
"The government of Canada disagrees strongly with the U.S. Department of Commerce's decision to impose an unfair and punitive duty," Canada's Minister of Foreign Affairs, Chrystia Freeland, and Natural Resources Minister Jim Carr said in a joint statement.
The lumber dispute isn't new, and it's not the first the U.S. has imposed tariffs on Canadian lumber.
In fact, it goes back decades. U.S. lumber companies started alleging in the 1980s that Canadian companies have been unfairly subsidized by their government. In 2002, the U.S. imposed a 30% tariff on Canadian softwood lumber, which Canadian firms claimed cost 30,000 jobs at the time.
Canada has consistently denied it subsidizes its lumber companies. The World Trade Organization sided with Canada in 2004 and the two sides came to a temporary agreement in 2006, which expired last October.
Related: Mexico economy minister warns Trump about tariffs
Despite the agreement, U.S. lumber firms continued to allege that their Canadian counterparts had an unfair advantage which allowed them to sell their lumber in the U.S. market at prices American firms couldn't sell at.
U.S. firms declared victory Monday night.
"Today's ruling confirms that Canadian lumber mills are subsidized by their government and benefit from lumber pricing policies," Cameron Krauss, legal chair for the U.S. Lumber Coalition, said in a statement.
Resolute, the Canadian lumber firm, denied it is subsidized. The Canadian officials called the subsidy allegations "baseless and unfounded."
The move came after there was no breakthrough in U.S. talks on Canadian dairy tariffs. Canada has long taxed U.S. diary products. Some U.S. milk exports, depending on the fat content, face tariffs as high as 292%, according to Canada's Agriculture Department.
The Canadian milk tariffs were grandfathered into NAFTA, one of the few areas of trade where major tariffs still exist.
That could change when Canada, Mexico and the US begin renegotiating NAFTA, a trade deal under pressure in the Trump era.
by Patrick Gillespie CNN
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Apr 25, 2017 - 06:18am PT
This hit my feed too. Why is it Canada that is receiving the opening blast in the Trade War he promised ? Is it something that was already in the bureaucratic pipeline? Looks like Canada will pay for the wall.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 25, 2017 - 06:22am PT
Looks like Canada will pay for the wall.

At this rate, Canada may make the USA pay for a Northern wall.
AP

Trad climber
Calgary
Apr 25, 2017 - 06:37am PT
Do you think free trade really exists outside of the drug world?
Every govt props up or subsidizes something.
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Apr 25, 2017 - 07:50am PT
Ivanka got booed in Germany. Would be interesting if the Trade War moved in that direction.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Apr 25, 2017 - 08:04am PT
The US and Canada have been fighting over lumber for decades.

1. US timber industry complains that Canada subsidizes its timber industry, thus allowing US consumers to buy cheap Canadian lumber instead of expensive US lumber.

2. US government says, "Damn! That ain't right!" and imposes a tax/duty/tariff on Canadian lumber entering the US.

3. Canadian timber industry complains that the US is effectively subsidizing its timber industry by imposing unfair penalty on Canadian lumber.

4. Canadian government says, "Damn! That ain't right!" and takes the case to the World Trade Organization.

5. WTO rules in Canada's favor, and US Government removes the tax/duty/tariff.

All is well for about three minutes, and then...

1. US timber industry complains that Canada subsidizes its timber industry, thus allowing US consumers to buy cheap Canadian lumber instead of expensive US lumber.

Repeat endlessly.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 25, 2017 - 08:17am PT
What about Canadian wheat, huh?
hippielogger

climber
Townsend,Mt
Apr 25, 2017 - 08:32am PT
One of the immediate affects is that Canadian mills will put on a third shift at their soft-wood processing centers increasing the out-put by about 24-30%
At-least that's been the response in the past, I don't know what the answer is?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 25, 2017 - 08:39am PT
the answer is?

Pass ordinances against building 6000 SF homes out of termite food!

And use condoms, dammit!
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Apr 25, 2017 - 08:59am PT
The real problem is that US loggers can't accept the fact that Canadian loggers get better wood.
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Apr 25, 2017 - 09:00am PT
Pass ordinances against building 6000 SF homes out of termite food!


That sounds like a start. Here in nyc, they use steel dimension lumber for fire retardation.

That said, I passed a construction site earlier, they had the whole street torn up to expose all of the pipes, there was an amazing amount of heavy wood in there, much like an old time mine.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Apr 25, 2017 - 11:47am PT
Looks like Canada will pay for the wall.

The American consumer will pay for the tariffs. The cost of imported goods will rise accordingly, and since we can't meet our own demand prices of American made goods will rise as well. A double whammy for the average American.

Protectionism is almost always a failure.
Bad Climber

Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
Apr 25, 2017 - 12:38pm PT
Let's put a big fat tariff on this route snagging, Canadian crank meister!


BAd
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Apr 25, 2017 - 01:18pm PT
First, I speaking in more general terms (so I'm probably OT on this thread.) Second, a tariff is a tax in drag, and my Libertarian streak is not fond of using taxes to cause market dislocation or direct personal behaviors.

On the other hand I just looked up the stats on Canadian lumber exports, and I was quite surprised. US imports about $25B annually. China is second at $5B.

Edit: That guy better not bite the rope if he peels.


Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 25, 2017 - 01:45pm PT
OK, you hosers, quit whining, eh? Dodge is gonna send you 300 new 'Demons'
so that should zero out all this nonsense. Just don't be stuffing yer
Tim Horton holes when you engage launch control and try for a 9.7 sec 1/4 mile, eh?
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Apr 25, 2017 - 03:41pm PT
Aw, c'mon, cold for sure, but tariffable? - I don't think so. It's got all of that great scenery and nice Canadians.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Apr 25, 2017 - 04:11pm PT
What's it really all about? Here's the _real_ story:

This week, the Trump administration slapped Canada with tariffs of up to 24% on lumber shipped to the United States.

The stated reasons? The Canadian government allegedly provides unfair subsidies to Canadian lumber firms like West Fraser Mills and Canfor Corp.

Also: Milk.

As Trump tweeted, "Canada has made business for our dairy farmers in Wisconsin and other border states very difficult. We will not stand for this. Watch!"

Now for the real reasons, which I think are obvious: Justin Trudeau's handshake, Samantha Bee's insults, and Canada's superior lumberjacks.

First, the handshake. Did you see the viral video of Trump literally jerking people around with his bizarre handshake? It's a habit of his to suddenly pull people forward, mid-handshake, making them practically topple over. A signature Trump alpha-monkey move. He even does it to people he likes. Bet you didn't expect to practically lose an appendage during that handshake, did you, Neil Gorsuch?

But Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, famous for his athletic ability, was well prepared for Trump's maneuver. In February, when they met, Trump tried several times to jerk Trudeau forward, but eventually gave up and let him walk into the White House as the clear handshake victor.

It was all caught on camera. How embarrassing. And Trump isn't going to let that kind of humiliation go unpunished.

Next: One of the most incisive and effective Trump critics — and there are some great ones all around the world — is undoubtedly Samantha Bee. Here are just a few of her descriptions of Trump:
• Orange supremacist
• First-grader with a head injury
• George Wallace in a wig
• Melting hunk of uninformed apricot Jell-O

And can you guess where Bee is from? Toronto. Surely even more infuriating to Trump, she's the only woman hosting a late-night satire show. Can Trump sit idly by and let a Canadian woman come down into our country, taking what should be a man's job, and use her bully pulpit to criticize him? There must be retribution for this grave offense.

Finally, there's the Canadian lumberjack factor. Did you know — and this is a scientific fact — that Canadian lumberjacks are, on average, 25% more masculine than American lumberjacks? Did you also know that some say Paul Bunyan himself was of French Canadian origin?

The insult to Trump's masculinity is just too much. He had to fight back. Frankly, he didn't have a choice. And what's the best way to fight back? By starting a trade war.

Sure, Canada is a NATO ally, a great northern neighbor and a trade partner to the tune of more than half a trillion dollars a year, benefiting both countries. And sure, trade wars usually only encourage one-upmanship, and tit-for-tat retaliation, creating losers on both sides of the border.

But this trade war is going to be different. Why? Because Trump always wins. That's why he's had such a successful first 100 days in office, with landmark legislation, record-high approval ratings, and the ability to draw Americans closer together in a spirit of bipartisanship not seen in decades.

That's if a trade war happens.

If a real war happens, well, I think Alan Alda said it best in the movie "Canadian Bacon": "Surrender pronto, or we'll level Toronto!"
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 25, 2017 - 04:21pm PT
Torrential sarcasm Ghost.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Apr 25, 2017 - 07:53pm PT
These fabricated protectionist claims arise every ten years or so. Every time the USA loses in the various courts and tribunals, and is forced to make a face-saving deal.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Apr 25, 2017 - 07:59pm PT
Ekat...That's what Lake Mary road looked like in Febuary...j-werd
hamie

Social climber
Thekoots
Apr 25, 2017 - 08:39pm PT
Ghost.

A point of clarification:

While the US may well have a category of forestry workers referred to as "lumberjacks", the Canadian equivalent is LOGGERS or FALLERS. :) :)

Cheers, eh.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Apr 25, 2017 - 08:42pm PT
^^^ Too FUNNY, Jim B!




edit - I wonder if Trump has seen this video?

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
Apr 25, 2017 - 11:17pm PT
Perhaps there is glut of Pine soft wood in the U.S. due to drought and bark beetle? Which means we don't have a need to clear cut and or import it to grow the housing sector?

Now is an opportune time to make a sh#t show of it to renegotiate.

AP

Trad climber
Calgary
Apr 26, 2017 - 06:35am PT
Trump and his administration remind me of schoolyard bullies. They stomp around yelling at everyone then find the weak kids to pick on. It could be undocumented immigrants or maybe Canada. Come on what are we going to do outfit moose with suicide bomber vests and send them south?
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 26, 2017 - 06:58am PT
Yeah Anders, its like being neighbours with North Korea, except we're fighting over 2x4's.

LOL !

That is funny. I would like to hear Bob and Doug's perspective though.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 26, 2017 - 09:55am PT
Rejoice, Snowflakes, the sky may not actually be falling!

Canada and the United States have made progress in recent days on a dispute over Canadian lumber exports "but we are not there yet", Canadian Foreign Minister Chrystia Freeland said on Wednesda

Canada reports progress with U.S. on lumber, deal not in sight
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-canada-trade-idUSKBN17S1IG

nah000

climber
no/w/here
Apr 26, 2017 - 10:24am PT
"Rejoice, Snowflakes, the sky may not actually be falling!"

and even if it is, given this administrations ability to send aircraft carriers in the wrong direction, to repeatedly sign presidential orders that are immediately struck down and to not even be able to get his own party to agree to the thing they've been campaigning on for a good half a decade now...

well.. you know the point.

just more bluster and blow from the huffy and puffy in chief...

as long as no american toddlers are killed by toppling lifts of canuck 2X4s we should be safe from about the only decisive thing he's actually accomplished, for now...



when ivanka starts giving speeches regarding how softwood is the world's newest wmd, that's when i start to worry...
dirtbag

climber
Apr 26, 2017 - 05:09pm PT
Breaking news, the USS Nimitz (CVN-68) Carrier Strike Group is currently in-route to the waters off the Canadian Riviera aka Vancouver Island. At the same time the USS George H.W. Bush (CVN-77) Carrier Strike Group has sailed out of Norfolk VA and is currently traversing the St Lawrence Seaway in route to Lake Ontario.

That's now old news. The breaking news is that Trump has no idea where these ships are, either.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2017 - 06:24am PT

I asked what the tariff affect was on prices at the lumber yard. They said at this time it was the price of cedar that was going up. A contractor has a bid for $82,000 dollars of cedar siding that will go up 17% if he doesn't order it by Friday.

I am sure that 17% will be used to make America greaterer.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 27, 2017 - 05:44pm PT
Well, you can look at the glass as half empty or, as the high ranking
Chinese diplomat I talked to last week said*, the President is proving he
is able to change his mind.

It was a surreal and stimulating conversation held in the shadow of the
Sipapu Natural Bridge in Natural Bridges NM, aka Da Bears Ears NM.
Dude was one of the funniest and most engaging people I've ever met.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Apr 27, 2017 - 09:22pm PT
"Today's ruling confirms that Canadian lumber mills are subsidized by their government and benefit from lumber pricing policies," Cameron Krauss, legal chair for the U.S. Lumber Coalition, said in a statement.


Oh, that's what it is, "a ruling"---of course, that is what you get from your RULER. Glad to know that new title for the President.

Nowhere in anything I've read, could I find what the nature of the "support" that Canadian lumber producers receive?
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2017 - 10:39pm PT
Canada is Tariffable

terrible spelling

next time just go with Terrific, you'll be right on 2 counts

Can you chuck wood? Can u chuck wood? Can-u-ck wood?



I never have been back to Alaska since my parents moved to Boston when I was one, but have made it to Canada once a decade and it certainly is terrific.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jun 4, 2018 - 12:18pm PT
Google Doodle praises Tom Longboar and rightly so, but Canada's greatest distance runner?

I'd put Ed Whitlock (RIP - 3/13/2017) up there with him. First sub-3 marathon by someone of 70 years of age (among others).

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 4, 2018 - 01:00pm PT
Stock up on poutine and maple syrop, y’all!
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jun 4, 2018 - 01:04pm PT
I can live without ever tasting poutine. But maple syrup? oh the horror.
AP

Trad climber
Calgary
Jun 4, 2018 - 01:56pm PT
Hey give us a break on lumber.
Thanks to our cold climate is takes longer to grow a tree here.
How else can we compete with Georgia?

The US govt doesn't support Boeing? All of the military technology and testing procedures that are then applied to passenger planes with much lower effective cost?

wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Jun 4, 2018 - 03:04pm PT
Down here we do not have enough good softwood to sustain the amount of growth in housing expected.

Do you know what happens next?
AP

Trad climber
Calgary
Jun 4, 2018 - 04:54pm PT
All of the latest trade moves will drive up prices
One more govt tax
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Jun 7, 2018 - 10:08am PT
Here we go,two weeks ago a 2x4 x96 inches was 3.25 per,today 5.75.

Thank you very little.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 7, 2018 - 11:02am PT
Lumber prices have been unnaturally low for decades.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Jun 7, 2018 - 11:39am PT
I disagree,construction lumber damn near doubled during our last recession,within 2 years it normalized.

We only have one thing to blame this on and you know it.

Are you implying that lumber is subsidized?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 7, 2018 - 02:46pm PT
DUH, by the Forest Circus. They built roads and subsidized the timber companies forever!
When did they even require replanting?
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Jun 7, 2018 - 03:53pm PT
Reilly,I am sure the US taxpayer is on the losing end of the forest service's practices.

That said, the USFS takes in a lot of money in leases and fees to the timber industry,I doubt it is a wash or sustainable.

I am just a lowly carpenter ,end consumer and my next 4 jobs are going to struggle to break even in light of these increases.

First world problem I guess,certainly not what I expected.

Cheif,really like Prince Rupert and all the way to Whitehorse.

I do not think Canada has unfairly subsidized their timber,I believe you just have more of a good thing.The last time I had a piece of SSpruce in my hands was in 2000,when I was in Ketchikan.

That and Yellow Cedar ,beautiful trees.

Cheers
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jun 7, 2018 - 04:44pm PT
Some U.S. milk exports, depending on the fat content, face tariffs as high as 292%, according to Canada's Agriculture Department.

Canada also claim that 73% of USA milk is subsidized. I don’t doubt it. It would make sense that milk tariffs based on fat content would be much higher for cheeses.

Plus, retaliating on a state Trump won( Wisconsin cheese!) makes perfect sense in a trade war, as does tariffs on Burbon and pork.
Messages 1 - 44 of total 44 in this topic
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