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Messages 1 - 74 of total 74 in this topic
Q- Ball

Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 23, 2017 - 12:07pm PT
If you found an untouched valley full of arch stuff from an unknown civilization what would you do?
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Apr 23, 2017 - 02:31pm PT
Re-read Enchanted Vagabonds and Finders Keepers.

And get rich Nugga!!!
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Apr 23, 2017 - 02:37pm PT
Based on awesome TR you shared in past, I would pay attention to local country laws and political sensitivities.

Just don't trust anyone who says "you throw me the idol, I throw you the whip!"
Q- Ball

Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 23, 2017 - 04:52pm PT
I haven't been able to get in touch with the mammoth Doctor! The politics of the area are difficult and several different groups are wanting information. If I tell the arch guys they will fly in and box it up. If I don't within 20 years it will be looted. At the same time I have the memory burned in my head of my indigenous friend after showing him. His reaction upon seeing it brings tears to my eye.
nah000

climber
no/w/here
Apr 23, 2017 - 05:12pm PT
i'd be researching/vetting the hell out of anyone i told about it, prior to divulging the info.

and then i'd probably try to tell two or three individual/groups with vested interests... something like a local indigenous organization, an active archaeologist local to that country, and another archaeologist with a more global reach...

that way, if you are able to vet them well, they can oversee each other, and the necessary dialogue and compromise can start from the get go, rather than having one party get a "head start" due to your only telling one group...

tricky one though. best of luck.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Apr 23, 2017 - 05:18pm PT
Yo, take all the pics you can even movies. Then try figure out which tribe its from.. And go tell their children.
Q- Ball

Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 23, 2017 - 05:51pm PT
I know it is a tricky one. The vetting is difficult due to internal disagreements with some involved in HN archeology. Also the usa government and Honduran government are getting involved.

I have been in contact with arch guys all over. Everyone says hmmm...tell me!
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Apr 23, 2017 - 06:02pm PT
Fill the valley with a meter of topsoil and put in a golf course.
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Apr 23, 2017 - 06:05pm PT
I would contact a archaeological magazine and in agreement for them getting first photos and information and publication rights oon the whole thing, they promote your Go Fund me site, for the sites preservation.
Q- Ball

Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 23, 2017 - 06:10pm PT
It will take more than a meter of dirt to cover this up! And I hate hiking with shovels. Sounds like to much work for me!
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Apr 23, 2017 - 06:15pm PT
Hire studly;)
Q- Ball

Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 23, 2017 - 09:40pm PT
An Indian associated with this wants to tell everyone. It is a strange battle. He thinks media attention will help save the area. Honduras is always tricky. He doesn't know the location.
i-b-goB

Social climber
Wise Acres
Apr 23, 2017 - 10:03pm PT
Woolly Mammoth Terrace?
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Apr 24, 2017 - 04:05am PT
Recognizing drainages of vast potential from the air seems common?
Are others out there trying to guzump your claim?

While seeing a decline in the whole production, I think that "National Geographic" is still the paying publication with a big enough footprint to throw elbows with the Hondurans.
The magazine, has for the last few years been weak sauce, compared to pre-Internet days.
But the organization still stands for research and preservation.
feralfae

Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
Apr 24, 2017 - 04:42am PT
Get in touch with these people, as they can probably steer you in the proper direction for proper mitigation of the area.

https://eca.state.gov/cultural-heritage-center/cultural-property-protection/bilateral-agreements/honduras

Here's another contact, closer to home: http://source.colostate.edu/csu-archaeologist-returning-to-honduran-jungle/

Good luck. I don't personally know any archaeologists working in Honduras at this time.
ff
Nick Danger

Ice climber
Arvada, CO
Apr 24, 2017 - 06:54am PT
I can't speak for Central American arch, but I had a similar experience on a big Federal project in the southern Great Basin. I took lots of photos and notes, then told my archaeology colleagues about it and took them in to see it. They still refer to that day as "the death march" because it was so far back in.

On another occasion (same part of the world, different project and different Federal agency) we were at this fabulous arch site with two Tribal Representatives, one Shoshone and one Paiute. For a couple of hours as we sat in this cave surrounded by all of these undisturbed artifacts these two Elders of the Tribe told us stories about the meaning of the place, about the origin stories of their people, and about the relationship between these two tribes. It was perhaps the single best day of field work I have ever had. I later learned that the tribal representatives had never intended to tell us so much, but we had made a real connection with them during the day and had earned their trust. A day of magic for me, to be sure.
hamie

Social climber
Thekoots
Apr 24, 2017 - 08:09am PT
Sounds like this might be referring to the boulders area above Camp 4?

Have you contacted Indiana Jones?

drindyj@arch.com Yes, he's willing to help.
Q- Ball

Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 24, 2017 - 08:56am PT
Actually there is gold in all the surrounding creeks.

Nick Danger, your story is great!
ionlyski

Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
Apr 24, 2017 - 09:29am PT
Geez Q-Ball, keep it on the down low for as long as you can at least until you have if figured out huh? Definitely not media. Leverage the situation so that it will continue to involve you I guess.

Arne
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 24, 2017 - 09:42am PT
Just visited the Edge Of The Cedars Museum in Blanding, UT. They have an
interesting display about people who have discovered things and done the
standup thang. Sadly, that involves a lot of BS while BLM people get their
donuts in a row. Nevertheless, it is nice to know there are people out there
being good citizens as opposed to the looters, some of whom have used helos
and rappelling to get to sites to loot them.
Q- Ball

Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 24, 2017 - 09:47am PT
No one has been able to put a name on these people. I suspect the Pech which migrated north from South America. Certain trees around sites are only known from South America/Panama. That's just my theory.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Apr 24, 2017 - 11:04am PT
Is this the trip where your DeLorme device malfunctioned and sent out a string of distress calls? If so it might not be too hard for inquiring minds to find out where you went.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 24, 2017 - 01:43pm PT
Seriously, you have to be careful about picking up pot shards or any archeology stuff on public land. Federal Law is pretty serious, and you don't want the wrath of a Federal Prosecutor to descend on you. They do prosecute these infractions.

I have found pots and other stuff way out in the middle of the Sonoran Desert, dozens of miles from water or a road. When I find something like this, I try to take a GPS fix, or if I don't have one, make a precise mark on a map, and take photos, all of which I share with the local office when I get out. I don't touch a thing.

They are rarely enthused, but at least I am doing the right thing.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Apr 24, 2017 - 01:52pm PT
Listen to feralfae if this is not a troll.

Also, you can can contact Columbia University for good advice.

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/archaeology/
Q- Ball

Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 24, 2017 - 05:25pm PT
Ksolem, yes it is. I am not worried about the people who received the false SOS.
This area is very remote and difficult to access, I had to guide a indigenous local for 6 days to show show/reach it.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 24, 2017 - 05:27pm PT
When I find something
I throw it in to nearby bush, so no one will EVER find it
I call it the Stahl Bro. Policy

because we all know that the next (or the next) human will pick it up and put it in his/her pocket
feralfae

Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
Apr 24, 2017 - 08:08pm PT
I was working on a series of rock art sites years ago, mapping and photographing a whole series of clifftop petroglyphs, during days of rain. My tent was perched between two Hopewell mounds on the cliff tops. I woke one Sunday morning and looked out at a huge mud-earth-rock slide just off to one side. Jumbled in the mud was a collection of 2000 year-old pottery, shards, and some small effigy figures. I photographed it all, made drawings, wrote pages of descriptions in my field journal, and left to go back to campus in a few days, reporting the site to the state museum and state archaeologist. I told no one else.

After the state archaeologist had visited the site, he called me and gently chastised me for not salvaging and storing the larger vessels. But nothing was taken. Everything I had photographed was still there. Sometimes, there's just no pleasing everyone. So, guided by your integrity, please yourself. Sketch, photograph, video, and do drawings. Write up descriptions. Once things are disturbed, learning from the site will diminish as evidence is sorted and stored away. So keep good records, too.

And remember that this site we are discussing -- and its artifacts--are owned by the people of Honduras. It is their heritage.

ff
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Apr 24, 2017 - 10:19pm PT
Yes. Document all you can before it is looted. Even this thread could have started a gold rush somewhere. This site is very well accessed by search engines.

You might even consider deleting this thread before it is around too long.

Find some academics you trust who also have good funding. Sounds like it would cost huge amounts to secure and study the site.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Apr 24, 2017 - 10:42pm PT
I'm not exactly sure what you are seeking with this thread?

It seems like an announcement, more than anything.

For those who doubt the power of looking at things how they lie, I strongly recommend the book "The Man From the Cave", by Colin Fletcher. Out of print, but available, probably in most libraries. An amazing story of investigation.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Apr 25, 2017 - 07:15am PT
Q- Ball,

It depends upon whether it seems important to you, and just how important. You’ve neglected to tell us just how important the finding seems to you.

I’ve had some students engaged in a social entrepreneurship program at Santa Clara University when I taught there. Some got involved, travelled to a third world country to help people, had a great experience, and then came back to finish college and go on to grad school (often using the experience to get the school they wanted). Others moved to the country they worked in and stayed.

You can do the same. Pack your bags and move there. Dig in. Engagement in any project that is deeply meaningful will reward you and others in more ways than you could count.

But, you know, . . . you gotta believe.

I mean, that’s the real question, isn’t it?
feralfae

Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
Apr 25, 2017 - 07:17am PT
Yes, and almost anything written by another Colin—Colin Renfrew—will help to guide anyone who discovers an archaeological site.
It seems that almost anywhere we stand today—as a human exploring our Earth—we are standing in the footprints of those who lived here before us. Taking a bit of time to learn from their lives can broaden our sense of time, of life, and of our humanity.
It is exciting to make these discoveries.

Spider, you may be right that this thread should be deleted, although it is not very specific on locations. So much of the archaeological heritage of Honduras is as yet unexplored.
Well, most of the heritage of the world is unexplored, come to that. :)

ff
WyoRockMan

climber
Grizzlyville, WY
Apr 25, 2017 - 08:17am PT
I was working on an exploration staking contract a few years ago. While walking to the next location, I came across the remains of an old prospector's cabin. Part of the contract stated to note any archeological finds, which in this case was any manmade object >50 years old per the USFS. I took a quick picture and a GPS coordinate. When I dropped the staking documentation off at the USFS office I mentioned the cabin and its general condition to the gov't geo in charge of permitting.

Fast forward a year and I found myself in the USFS office on a follow up project. I inquired if the site was actually investigated. He said it had been and they actually found some "pretty cool stuff". I asked if I could see the report and without losing a beat he said that I could not, archaeological reports are held in confidence. When I asked the reasoning behind that, he told me that the report couldn't be viewed as it had sensitive location information in it and releasing the info could lead to looting. I let out a small laugh and asked if I should delete my GPS data.
ionlyski

Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
Apr 25, 2017 - 02:27pm PT
Listen to feralfae if this is not a troll.

Q-Ball ain't no troll, you can take that to the bank.
Q- Ball

Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 25, 2017 - 02:37pm PT
I spent several hours on the phone today with both sides involved. Both seem like good guys with very different opinions on how to protect this whole region. I've decided to not tell locations to them. Getting deep into Honduran politics is a game of Russian roulette I don't play. That's how I stay safe in these areas.

This area means a lot to me! And especially my Pech friends being killed by the drug cartels.

I'm not worried with the vague statements I've made here. Trust me, this area is very remote and untraveled in modern times..
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Apr 25, 2017 - 02:51pm PT
How do you know it is an unknown civilization?
Q- Ball

Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 25, 2017 - 02:56pm PT
Stahlbro,
Maybe I should have said undocumented city. Also there is no formal name for the people that inhabited this region.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Apr 25, 2017 - 03:19pm PT
Ok. Thanks Q.

I would still recommend that someone formally survey the site, even if the location is kept on the down low.

Very exciting stuff.
Q- Ball

Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 25, 2017 - 05:22pm PT
Nope, but I have used LIDAR maps to help arch guys in Copan Ruinas
Q- Ball

Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 25, 2017 - 07:05pm PT
The memory that still brings tears to my eyes is of a Pech friend sitting on a log in pouring rain for hours. He mumbled over and over this is very special for my people. How did you find it?

I had guided him to it which in itself seems strange for a hillbilly from TN.

It was a very powerful moment.. For that reason I've decided to not share info for now.
John M

climber
Apr 25, 2017 - 10:31pm PT
An Indian associated with this wants to tell everyone. It is a strange battle. He thinks media attention will help save the area. Honduras is always tricky. He doesn't know the location.

It seems like this might come out whether you want it to or not.
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Apr 26, 2017 - 12:54am PT
I learned the hard way that sometimes the best move is to say nothing, to simply keep it to yourself. I know the impulse to share such an exciting and unusual discovery is overpowering, but the moment you let someome else in on your discovery, a sort of countdown starts and it becomes a simple matter of time before someone strip mines the place -- either a so-called "legitimate" group of government site vandals with their degrees and academic training and Federal funding and permits, or it's old folks like us thinking that the gorgeous pot sitting there would look great on the fireplace mantle, or -- this is the worse case scenario -- a Troop of Utah Boy Scouts stumbles onto it and it's game over.

It took me about a year of getting burned by Friends who would go back and loot to realise that finding a beautiful point, or a pot, or a ladle, and thier moral compass goes haywire. And then there were Cultural Resources staff who would go back (without saying a single f*#king word to me) to catalog, collect and remove all the artifacts -- well, at the end of the day that the only folks you could count on were freinds who had no idea how to get back to the spot -- just no way to find it on their own.

feralfae

Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
Apr 26, 2017 - 06:10am PT
But Q, you have already shared info.
And if one of those people tells another person . . . and so on.
If you can keep it on the low, good for you. But I think the site has been exposed to several people, although perhaps only one person. Please continue to document as much as you are able to do so.

I'd be concerned about securing the area, but the local people-—the descendants, if you will—should have first knowledge and first say about what happens there, I'd think. If you've read 1491, you know that entire cultural communities were decimated by early Europeans, whether through diseases or warfare. So the locals may not be direct descendants, but they deserve to have some say in this. And it may be that they are happy if you never speak of this place again.

If you are using LIDAR, then you may be an investigative sort of person anyway, so you can map and document pretty well. Best of luck to you in your preservation efforts.
ff
Nick Danger

Ice climber
Arvada, CO
Apr 26, 2017 - 07:17am PT
Regarding bvb's story above, I recall seeing incredibly well preserved early uranium prospecting and mining camps and workings from the 1950's, with magazines, dishes, and utensils still laid out on tables, even glass windows still intact. I just marveled at these finds. When I went back two or three decades later these wonderful finds had just been stripped bare. If I am participating on a Federal project I take photos and notes and do due diligence insofar as my professional colleagues are concerned. If I am out on my own I still take the photos, but don't really tell anyone else. In a way, it's sad to acknowledge this level of distrust in my fellow citizens. That being said, I actually understand the desire to collect a talisman from a prior era, it seems like a very human thing to do. I actually do the same when it comes to some particularly wonderful river rounded rock that I collect on almost every river trip. Somehow, though, I feel the river is OK with that.
Tobia

Social climber
Denial
Apr 26, 2017 - 09:32am PT
When I was in the logging business in the 90's we cut a tract of land that was part of a large family estate, that had holdings across the state.

In the middle of the tract there was a small cluster of acres that had never been cut since the land was used for growing cotton, which would give the trees approximately 50-60 years of growth. There were no existing roads or signs of such until we cut them, just an old gate.

In the heart of the tract was a an old house, not very large (less than a 1000 sq ft),but well preserved. The roof, windows and doors were all intact. Large pines and hardwoods hid the house and until the tree harvesting machine operators discovered it.

The door didn't have a lock and an irrepressible curiosity made me go inside. The other guys on the crew didn't have the least bit of interest in it. It was obviously untouched in the decades since it was abandoned. It looked as if the occupants left one day with every intention of returning, but didn't.

It had a beautiful ornate wood burning stove and oven, ice box and a pantry full of canned and jarred foods. An old depression era telephone was mounted on the wall, the bedrooms were furnished and still had linen on them. Newspapers, a Sears and Roebuck Catalog and other printed items of the day were right where they had been the last time someone looked at them.

It was hard to leave a treasure trove of antiquities in place, especially for someone like myself who loves that sort of thing, but that is what I did. When the timber company representatives came to check on their procurement and our progress, I tried to learn something about the landowners, but there wasn't much information shared, except the fact that the family had been in a estate dispute for decades and the cutting of the timber was about all that had been agreed on in many years.

We left the trees near the house and the rest of the land was replanted in pines. Our entrance to the tract was blocked with a large pile of pine and hardwood limbs. In the 20+ years since, much of the land has been parceled out. Some developed, but the larger portion is still covered in trees. I never learned what became of the house and all its belongings, but I suspect it was all looted.

Using Google Earth and the historical imagery I can see the old house site and in the current imagery, no building.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 26, 2017 - 09:42am PT
Found this little house last week. I looked in on the current inhabitants and probably contracted Hanta. Serves me right for sticking my nose where it don't belong.

ionlyski

Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
Apr 26, 2017 - 11:21am PT
Tobia, fantastic write up! That was a very cool find. The old cabins are my favorite ones but never heard of one that well preserved.

Arne
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Apr 26, 2017 - 01:44pm PT
Shall remain anonymous...



Q- Ball

Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
Topic Author's Reply - May 16, 2017 - 08:30pm PT
I'm still torn on how to handle it. The drug guys are for real. My friend was just shot several times sitting in his office in western HN. He was supposed to be with me on the last trip when this occurred. He is going to be okay! Being a scientist nonsense makes no sense to me.
Like i stated the situation is tricky. If you are inclined, please pray for my friend.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
May 16, 2017 - 08:34pm PT
Right on BVB about the magic of navigationally challenged adventure partners. Right f*#kin' on.
feralfae

Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
May 17, 2017 - 05:30am PT
Q-Ball, prayers certainly on the way to you and your friend. I'm glad you are protecting the information about this site. A friend and fellow archaeologist and I discovered a significant site at the confluence of two drainages (this was about 40 years ago) and just walking over the site, we discovered such an assortment of artifacts that we decided we needed to back off until we could get an adequate research team out there. So we did no excavations, only some photos and field drawings of surface finds. Because we were very busy with two other, earlier (archaic) sites, we did not get back to those field notes for about ten years. The site was still absolutely pristine in its remote location.

Maybe time will be kind and no one will invade your Honduran site for a long while. It has been sitting there for some time, apparently undisturbed. By then, later on, there may be better technology, field techniques, and an adequate crew to carefully explore and preserve the site, if that is called for. But I think we all must accept that people go everywhere, love finding things, and enjoy exploring sites, taking an artifact for a souvenir, and telling friends about their finds. So for now, the best you may be able to do is survey, record, and preserve. Good luck to you.

I hope things stay peaceful and that your friend recovers completely from the violence that seems to erupt far too often between humans. I hope that whatever you decide—and what others decide—that no more violence comes into your or your friends' lives. Nothing is worth losing life. Well, maybe a few things, but not archaeological sites or artifacts, Indiana Jones notwithstanding. :)

Thank you for sharing your wonder and enthusiasm about your remarkable find. I do hope it works out well.
feralfae
Q- Ball

Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
Topic Author's Reply - May 17, 2017 - 07:50am PT
Feralfae, thank you for the kind words and prayers for my friend.

I'm definitely guilty of picking up souvenirs in my corn fields after being disked/plowed. You seem like A very knowledgeable person, hell, I will walk you to it! It is a bitch of a walk/swim though! Thanks again for your kind words and thoughts.
Qball
Crazy Bat

Sport climber
Birmingham, AL & Seweanee, TN
May 17, 2017 - 11:08am PT
Do not get in a hurry. I know a couple of guys who found a cave full of mud glyphs. They sat on the discovery for 8 years before they found an archeologist they felt had the right background and morals. The cave was gated shortly thereafter. I was lucky enough to tour it. Very very fragile stuff which opened up our eyes to the use of caves by pre columbians in our area. They absolutly did the right thing by not getting in a hurry.
Q- Ball

Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
Topic Author's Reply - May 17, 2017 - 12:56pm PT
Crazy bat, thanks for your advice.
Funny story about mud glyphs ...growing up in rural Tennessee my mother always warned me not to go in a cave on a near by farm. That only made me more curious and of course I crawled in it. After getting about one mile back I was looking at mud glyphs and then noticed my mother's name next to them scratched on the wall! Ha!

This cave is now gated and I also found a population of endangered cave salamanders.
feralfae

Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
May 18, 2017 - 07:56pm PT
Q-Ball, love that you found the salamander.
Thank you for the nod on visiting the site. I don't know that area, but it would be lovely to go if I thought I'd not be a whining, dragging along at the back of the party sort of person. My broken tibia needs more healing right now, and at 70, I am more careful of setting off in real adventures. I would be totally embarrassed if I needed a rescue.

Thank you.
Yes, be patient. Things will work out with your wonderful site.
Kind regards,
ff
feralfae

Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
May 18, 2017 - 10:41pm PT
This is an actual argument in modeling from typing of artifacts. And from my favorite cartoons. :)

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/artifacts.png
Q- Ball

Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
Topic Author's Reply - May 22, 2017 - 12:06pm PT
Timid top rope,
My friend is a Mexican biologist we hired to run our Scarlet Macaw reintroduction efforts throughout HN. There was jealousy from others about this young guy showing up and becoming there boss. In HN if you piss someone off they just shoot you.

The shooter has been arrested but we are still sorting out who hired him. Always interesting stuff going on down there.

http://gardenandgun.com/feature/the-birdman-of-honduras/ Article about some of our Macaw work in HN.
Qball
Q- Ball

Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
Topic Author's Reply - May 22, 2017 - 04:06pm PT
Feralfae,
Wishing for you to heal up quick! A guy I correspond with in HN told me, "I'm too old to walk those mountains, so I use a helicopter now". Ha! Made me laugh. Sending healing thoughts to you.
Qball
Q- Ball

Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2017 - 08:38am PT
My friend that was shot up is doing great! We just had a new release of 23 scarlet macaws on an island off the coast... And a a few yellow lored amazons. The national bird of HN is flying wild again!!!

Edit- I decided to keep my secret valleys secret. I don't trust the Nat Geo guys.
Q- Ball

Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2018 - 10:16am PT
Just got word of a meeting in DC that potentially several million bucks has been raised to protect this region. My secret rivers may not be secret much longer, but it will be good for the jungle...I think...
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 2, 2018 - 11:25am PT
Good work! Mixed blessings, huh, Q? I wouldn’t trust Nat Geo either, just another corporation.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 2, 2018 - 11:34am PT

Imiwaia


Imiwaia Hill

Q- Ball

Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2018 - 06:02pm PT
Reilly,
I have mixed feelings and some are selfish. I pray that the guys spending the money gets done correctly. I do believe it is a good move, but not sure how to process it.
Q- Ball

Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2018 - 10:21pm PT
XCon, without getting into details, other groups are working in nearby drainages/river systems. I still haven't told details on exact locations of which valleys I wander....and they use helicopters and special forces for access, haha!

I just hope this area gets protection even though I will loose my secret valleys.
Qball, confused jungle wanderer.

Edit... The metates are made of sandstone and I also know of a quarry I found several years ago. I have visited it a few times and look at the half completed metates and scratch my head. It is a pretty wild walk to get there.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 3, 2018 - 01:22am PT

The Garbage Project and the Lean Cuisine Syndrome etc (1992)


To an archaeologist, ancient garbage pits or garbage mounds, which can usually be located within a short distance from any ruin, are always among the happiest of finds, for they contain in concentrated form the artifacts and comestibles and remnants of behavior of the people who used them. While every archaeologist dreams of discovering spectacular objects, the bread-and-butter work of archaeology involves the most common and routine kinds of discards. It is not entirely fanciful to define archaeology as the discipline that tries to understand old garbage.

But when all the piles have been sorted and counted and weighed and all that data has been entered into computer databases, there is a payoff: facts. ``Garbage . . . represents physical fact, not mythology,`` the authors write. Garbage offers a reality-check, a chance to place what we do against what we think we do.

For example, there is what the Garbage Project calls the Lean Cuisine Syndrome: When people are asked about their eating habits, they say one thing. When you examine their garbage, you find out something else.

``People consistently underreport the amount of regular soda, pastries, chocolate, and fats that they consume; they consistently overreport the amount of fruits and diet soda,`` Rathje and Murphy note.

People tend to underestimate their intake of sugar by 94 percent, chips and popcorn by 81 percent and candy by 80 percent. They tend to overestimate their intake of tuna by 184 percent, liver by 200 percent and cottage cheese by 311 percent.

And when people get the advice to reduce fat intake by eating less fat by cutting away fat from red meat, they do so, but at the same time they start eating more sausage (high on fat).

Given the heightened health awareness in the U.S., such self-deception is probably understandable. But the Garbage Project has also come up with findings that fly in the face of what you`d expect.

For example, when an item, like red meat or sugar, is in short supply, you`d think that people would be especially careful not to waste it. But the opposite turns out to be true. During a beef shortage in the early 1970s, ``people wasted three times more beef when it was in short supply than they did when it was plentiful.``

Why? Apparently, because of the shortage, people ``were buying up all the beef they could get their hands on, even if some of the cuts were unfamiliar.`` But they didn`t know how to cook those unfamiliar cuts and didn`t like the way they tasted. Thus, more garbage.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 3, 2018 - 07:19am PT
On a kayak trip along the west coast of Vancouver Island we camped on a beach next to a midden that had to be 3 meters high. Didn’t dig thru it but it looked to be 99% clam shells.
Nothing but Lean Cuisine for those folks. We certainly enjoyed a fine dinner there.
Q- Ball

Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2018 - 09:57am PT
Reilly,
Shell middens are my specialty! Haha! I first got started in malacology digging through old muskrat middens below my house. Up to 76 species from one shoal. Been helping a grad student with her project to date the material. Some results show that muskrat ate them 1000 years ago!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 3, 2018 - 11:29am PT
Q, we gotta have a beer so I can tell you about digging with Dr Leakey! Yes, that guy. 😽
ionlyski

Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
Aug 3, 2018 - 10:58pm PT
I'll buy the beer!

Arne
Q- Ball

Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 4, 2018 - 07:02am PT
Reilly and Arne,
Come on over, cooking up some venison and beef steaks later today for a bunch of folks. May go tubing on the river later. I know it is short notice, sorry for that.
Qball
Q- Ball

Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 17, 2019 - 06:28pm PT
A couple of my"secret valleys" in HN have been looted. It is not unexpected but the reason I started this thread.

I had hoped I had a few years to get it protected... More protected is better wording.

I can't blame the folks that removed artifacts to get money for feeding their kids. I don't worry about anything written on supertopo. They had no knowledge of the areas or arch stuff, just random Indians hauling stuff out to buy rice for family... Ughhhh makes me sick
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 17, 2019 - 07:01pm PT
The sad thing is those indios are probably getting pennies on the dollar compared to what the rich gringo sh!thead collector is paying after it goes through 2 or 3 middlemen, huh?

A propos of indios - saw an ad on a bus in Columbia for something stoopid. The ad started out
“No seas un indio, you need to buy this!
Q- Ball

Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 18, 2019 - 11:50am PT
Pennies if they are lucky. I tracked them for 2.5 walking days to see the route used to access the area and where they came from. It was a completely different route from mine but was trending towards a village a few days further.

Again, not surprising, but disappointing. I would love to meet these locals and learn jungle tricks on how they navigate without a map.

An obscure creek off unnamed rivers and mountains that takes 5 days to reach from a village.

I'm impressed with the route they found and ability to cruise through the woods. I wonder if they are the naked guys with bows and arrows some Pech talked about a few years ago.

And yes, I have been hired as a tracker in the past, this is random brain thoughts piecing together the limited sign I followed for many miles. I was happy to be able to follow them as far as I did.
Nick Danger

Ice climber
Arvada, CO
Mar 18, 2019 - 01:59pm PT
I found some cool arch sites in the southern Great Basin while doing geologic mapping for the Feds on a DOE project. I did the programatically right thing by taking the cultural resource folks back to this site. They did their own due diligence with photos and note-taking, but removed nothing. Interestingly, these sites were so far off the beaten path that the arch folks never went back, and that day went into the local lore as "Nick's death march". It's on a restricted access patch of land associated with the Nevada Test Site so I remain unconcerned that anyone else will ever go back there and loot the place. Discovering it was totally awesome, though.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 18, 2019 - 02:06pm PT
I remain unconcerned that anyone else will ever go back there and loot the place.

If there’s enough money in it somebody will do it. Not a matter of if.
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