Discussion Topic |
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 13, 2017 - 01:38pm PT
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Hmmmm....the wife and I each get to check two 70 lb. bags free of charge for the rest of our lives....that works for me.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 13, 2017 - 01:43pm PT
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Hmmmm...if your dog is flying United I hope the co-pilot is a cat.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 13, 2017 - 02:15pm PT
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Tami...the United incident is an anomaly. They wouldn't still be in business if what happened was standard procedure. I've flown alot and I have found that airlines in general are not as customer friendly as many industries with a few exceptions. United is no better or worse than the majority of airlines. You suck it up when you tighten your seatbelt and look foward to your destination.....unless, of course, your handcuffed to a police officer.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 13, 2017 - 02:35pm PT
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What a stoopid American sheep letting himself get dragged out like that.
He should have clocked that tool and thrown him out himself .....
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Apr 13, 2017 - 03:25pm PT
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I fly the cheapest fare and expect to get treated poorly. Got a round trip coast to coast for next month for 180 bucks. Sure you can bump me off my flight, I made 1200 in bumps last year, I can take the abuse.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Apr 13, 2017 - 04:48pm PT
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United sucks, but not anymore then Delta or American.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Apr 13, 2017 - 07:13pm PT
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For many years I flew internationally for work mostly on Continental Airlines. Continental was, in my opinion, the best US carrier. When they were acquired by United, the change was obvious. I started carefully observing employees and tried to guess which were Continental and which were United. I could guess right most of the time. Whereas Continental's culture was to too pay very close attention to the close-in details of passengers and what they needed, United's culture seemed to be more akin to prison guards--focus on the procedure.
In the Atlanta airport--we visited often as our youngest daughter lived there at the time--a supervisor was upset about something the gate staff was doing. The gate staff was trying to deal with some flight or gate change and confused and frustrated passengers. They seemed to doing okay. But the supervisor decided that berating the staff was a good way to move the work along. The staff keep doing their jobs, but they were upset about the the yelling. I decided to see if filming the supervisor would have any effect. So I moved in so everyone could see me and filmed the supervisor with my phone. She noticed, looked a little concerned, but didn't change her approach or tact. If supervisors are that tone deaf, it is not hard to see that calling the police to haul someone off a plane is good procedure.
Unfortunately for me, I still have 250,000 points left in my United account.
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Branscomb
Trad climber
Lander, WY
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Apr 14, 2017 - 05:49am PT
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My daughter had a terrible time with United at Xmas--cancelled her flight from Seattle to Denver, fortunately she got them to switch her to Delta so she could get to Casper the next day. She went to Hawaii later in winter break and United delayed the flight for 24 hours--some maintenance issue. First world problems but other airlines don't seem to screw up as much or be so obnoxious.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Apr 14, 2017 - 06:04am PT
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Someone needs to make United great again.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 14, 2017 - 09:47am PT
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Apr 14, 2017 - 01:37pm PT
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United's pilots are blaming this on Republic Airline, which is apparently on the verge of bankruptcy.
http://www.businessinsider.com/united-airlines-pilots-letter-2017-4
"This occurred on one of our contracted Express carriers, separately owned and operated by Republic Airline, and was ultimately caused by the grossly inappropriate response by the Chicago Department of Aviation," the pilots wrote.
Major US airlines — including American, Delta, and United — subcontract some of their flights to regional carriers under sub-brands such as American Eagle, Delta Connection, and United Express. Tickets on these flights are sold by the mainline carrier, but are crewed exclusively by the regional airline.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 14, 2017 - 01:45pm PT
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CEO Oscar Munoz -- "..we approached one of these passengers to explain apologetically that he was being denied boarding,.."
Denied boarding?
The dude was already on board!
Stoopid American CEO clown ......
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Apr 14, 2017 - 02:19pm PT
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^^^^
i agree partially.
what i don't understand is why united is taking basically all of the heat on this...
when to me it seems like this falls squarely and primarily on the shoulders of the cops.
if i phone the cops and tell them i have a trespasser in my yard and they need to remove him and then when the cops come over "the tresspasser" is standing on the sidewalk, but the cops still beat the shIt out of him and take him downtown...
am i responsible?
seems like the cops should know the law [and as far as i've seen there is no law that says an airline has the right to kick out a compliant and paying customer by force once they are seated], and then for the sake of argument, even if there was a law broken that the cops were there to enforce, no united official told them to use the force that was used...
i don't get how the cops are basically getting a free pass [from the public] on this one.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Apr 14, 2017 - 03:24pm PT
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I am sort of curious as to what law Dr. Dao broke by refusing to leave the plane--my few minutes of "legal research" (Google) didn't really turn up anything.
We've got 49 U.S. Code § 46504, but that doesn't seem applicable to me:
An individual on an aircraft in the special aircraft jurisdiction of the United States who, by assaulting or intimidating a flight crew member or flight attendant of the aircraft, interferes with the performance of the duties of the member or attendant or lessens the ability of the member or attendant to perform those duties, or attempts or conspires to do such an act, shall be fined under title 18, imprisoned for not more than 20 years, or both. However, if a dangerous weapon is used in assaulting or intimidating the member or attendant, the individual shall be imprisoned for any term of years or for life.
We can all agree it's clear that United didn't have to let him board the plane in the first place, but it doesn't necessarily follow that they had the right to kick him off the plane after they did.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Apr 14, 2017 - 03:32pm PT
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^^^^
my legal research consisted of reading reddit... ha! but the hivemind did, at one point, come to the same consensual conclusion that you did: prior to boarding a carrier can refuse a seat even if you have a ticket, but once they've taken that ticket unless you're breaking some law [by being a threat to staff or other passengers for example] they have no right to throw you off...
so far i have seen no one be able to dispute this replete with a referential citation...
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Apr 14, 2017 - 03:59pm PT
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^^^^
quite possibly.
though, i suspect there are some much smarter lawyers than either you or i, building an argument as to why your logic is mistaken, right now as we speak/write.
and if united lets this goto court, and i'm sure they will do everything in their power to make sure it doesn't, then i'd also bet you we will, among other definitive rulings, find out if an airline can with [reasonable] force remove an otherwise compliant and paying customer who has already been allowed to board.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Apr 14, 2017 - 04:32pm PT
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No person may assault, threaten, intimidate, or interfere with a crewmember in the performance of the crewmember’s duties aboard an aircraft being operated under this part.
Is it a crewmember's duty to kick off a lawfully boarded passenger?
You are making some assumptions--possibly correct but not self-evident.
Did the pilot order that Dr. Dao leave? Possibly, but I'm not sure I've seen that reported.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Apr 14, 2017 - 04:54pm PT
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The only wiggle room is that the plane was still at the gate and the door was still open. However, given one is not allowed to board unless the captain and crew are already there, I'm pretty sure that won't help.
If the flight attendant, upon captain's orders, tells a passenger to leave the plane and that person refuses, that person is violating federal law by interfering with a flight crew in the course of their duties.
I think it would be difficult to ask a passenger to leave the plane, if the door was not open. It would also be difficult to do if the plane is at flight altitude........
:)
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John M
climber
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Apr 14, 2017 - 05:01pm PT
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that is addressed in the article I posted.
"This is not a denied boarding incident, which is covered by the contract; this man was already boarded. This is not an oversold incident, as provided for by the contract; this airplane was not oversold - every passenger was ticketed and had a seat.
"This was not a situation where the passenger was unruly, committed a criminal act, interfered with the flight crew, was incapable of being a passenger by himself or anything of that nature, obviously until they attempted to physically throw him off the airplane.
"So to me, United Airlines breached their own contract of carriage."
I don't really know, but I'm betting they try really hard to settle because this is a publicity nightmare.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Apr 14, 2017 - 06:01pm PT
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aiight DMT... now you have me doing unpaid actual research.
here is united airline's contract of carriage.
as this is unpaid, i will admit i skimmed, but in skimming two parts caught my eye:
Rule 21: lays out the reasons why united airlines "shall have the right to refuse to transport or shall have the right to remove from the aircraft at any point, any Passenger for the following reasons:"
i read through the list, and there is nothing definitive on that list, that i am seeing, that mr. dao was in transgression of.
Rule 25: covers the ins and outs of denial of boarding. there is nothing in there, that i am seeing, that explicitly says that united has a right to rescind their allowing someone to board and then more importantly to enforce that decision by force. ie. it clearly lays out that united has the right to deny someone boarding. it doesn't say they can force you off the plane after they have already allowed you to board, only due to overbooking.
as per your examples:
1. if a new plane arrived and it was smaller, one would have to reboard the new plane and this would fall under Rule 25, denial of boarding, which they have every right to do.
2. if people arrived late and had a connector so had priority on an already completely booked flight: united can certainly request that people who have already boarded give up their seats as per the protocols outlined in Rule 25. they can also refuse boarding to people who haven't already boarded but do have a ticket, also as per Rule 25. i see nothing that says if they've allowed a person to board that they have the right to physically remove you from the plane solely due to overbooking...
because that is what makes this interesting. sure, all carriers have a right to not allow you onto the plane, due to overbooking or just about any ole reason. the question is are they really prison ships, as you've argued, where they can physically enforce whatever whim they make, including physically enforcing the rescinding of previously made decisions regarding allowing someone to board, due only to overbooking?
i'm not seeing it in the contract. and even if it's there, i suspect a good [hell, the bad ones too] lawyer will be arguing like i am...
because if it is there, i'm not seeing it as being explicit, like a good contract should be.
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Apr 14, 2017 - 06:09pm PT
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DMT When you walk down the jetway you are surrendering your freedom. Those planes are (small) prison cells. Fighting with air marshals is not going to produce happiness. If they tell you to get off the plane, sorry but you gotta get off the plane.
I feel sad that the guy couldn't figure it out without getting hurt. If it is your car and you had to throw someone off you wouldn't think twice. It's their plane and their rules. Don't fly if you don't want to play by their rules.
Or get upset it's subsidized with you tax dollars and get drug off?
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Apr 14, 2017 - 06:28pm PT
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capseeboy:
fortunately [this part of] the world doesn't work that way...
a customer paid money.
there is a contract in place.
the terms of that contract govern both parties.
most importantly and fortunately: we don't live in somalia just yet.
[ie. this ain't no private car with no court enforceable contracts in place.]
as such if there is a case to be made, then united is about to parse some nuance for us... that is assuming mr. dao isn't in need of cash and wants to prove a point by taking this through the courts [and forego the ridiculous cash settlement in combination with a nda that he is certainly going to be repeatedly offered].
and don't worry JB... i try to keep the faith that all of us are open to a bit of persuasion now and again... even me... ha!
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Apr 14, 2017 - 07:28pm PT
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nahOOO [ie. this ain't no private car with no court enforceable contracts in place.]
You give up your rights when you willingly submit to a body search before boarding. But you allow it for the privilege of flying. My point is, it's their plane, your contract is toilet paper. They call the shots in THEIR space. You don't listen and you will get hurt. They are the thugs. You will lose. Use your reasoning. It will serve your health better then your belief in enforceable contracts after your skull is split open while protesting.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Apr 14, 2017 - 07:44pm PT
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capseeboy wrote: "You will lose. Use your reasoning. It will serve your health better then your beliefs in enforceable contracts after your skull is split open while protesting."
two points:
1. tell that to mr. dao after he has either settled for millions or becomes one of united's newest shareholders due to a court decision... ;)
2. do you always let people fUck you when you agree to terms on a contract?
or just when it's an airline?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Apr 14, 2017 - 07:46pm PT
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I've flew a lot of miles in my 35 years overseas and the two worst airlines I ever experienced were Syrian Arab Airways and United. Granted, I never had the nerve to fly Aeroflot.
What I really detested about United was how they served good food and free booze on the western side of the dateline because that was international regulation and the Japanese would accept no less. As soon as we crossed over into American air space however, it was sandwiches, $5 for a beer and a free sneer with it. By the time I had to fly from the west coast to Colorado, it was peanuts and they didn't even bother to sneer.
Then there was the flight back to Japan when we sat for three hours in 95 degree heat on the Denver runway and they wouldn't let us off or tell us when the plane would be fixed, Finally they brought a big air hose in and pumped cool air in that way because there were several babies turning beet red and screaming. That made me late for my connecting flight in San Francisco so I had to run for miles dragging my luggage behind me. Then they were so late arriving in Tokyo at Narita that we had to run for miles through that airport and be bussed to Haneda where we ran through that airport to catch the last flight to Okinawa. Altogether a 21 hour horror flight.
Nothing compares to the Continental flight though which left San Francisco 3 hours late after repairing the plane, 6 hours late from Hawaii after repairing it again and 8 hours late from Guam. That was a 32 hour horror show. They lost their government contract after that fiasco and no longer flew across the Pacific. The difference though, is that Continental screwed up once like that and United did on every flight.
After that, I flew all Nippn Airways back and forth. Nary a problem and quality Japanese service all the way.
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Apr 14, 2017 - 08:05pm PT
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2. do you always let people fUck you when you agree to terms on a contract?
The guy thats right doesn't always win. They sometimes end up shot and nobody is persecuted.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Apr 14, 2017 - 08:24pm PT
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capseeboy: no disagreement there. and i'll give you this: if i was mr. dao, i almost certainly would have left, for exactly the reasons you've been arguing. sometimes it ain't worth the fight.
that's cause usually they don't bust your teeth out, cause facial reconstruction and create viral outrage... usually you just get your time wasted with garden variety disrespect and/or harassment.
otoh, in this case, i suspect, mr. dao is probably going to come out of this just fine in the long run.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 14, 2017 - 09:07pm PT
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Just see how stoopid the gross materialists make this world ........
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Apr 14, 2017 - 09:18pm PT
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You do have a choice in airlines and
We thank you for choosing PSA
PSA Jets roundball squad.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Apr 14, 2017 - 10:13pm PT
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I remain confused by the police involved getting a free pass.
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JC Marin
Trad climber
CA
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Apr 14, 2017 - 10:19pm PT
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Thought I was getting on a red eye flight...turned into a black eye instead.
Flying the friendly skies!!!
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Apr 15, 2017 - 12:28pm PT
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I think the guy who's shot is persecuted and the one who holds the contract is never prosecuted...
Thank you for discombobulating my cornfuzzion.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Apr 15, 2017 - 04:26pm PT
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It's funny, when I was a professional dirtbagger I used to pray to be the guy kicked off the plane in return for cash or flight miles. I remember breaking out the sleeping bags and spending the night on the floor at LAX in return for free round-trip passage on the trip of my choice. Of course, this was back in the 70's, long before flying became the survival situation that it is today. Last time I flew was about a year ago on Delta, I flew first class only to discover that even first class is pretty bleak...but at least I had a roomy seat.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Apr 15, 2017 - 08:36pm PT
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I fly a fair bit for work. Maybe not as much as Dingus, but more than most.
If I have to fly domestic US, Alaska and Southwest are far better choices than American, Delta, or United. Sure, it's all low-cost-carrier cattle class, but there is a big difference.
I also fly trans-Pacific a lot, and... well... Anyone who flies between Asia and North America on a US airline is either stupid, or had no choice.
Okay, maybe "stupid" is the wrong term. Plenty of Americans think everywhere else is backwards and quaint, and that any US company (airline or anything else) is obviously better. The right term for them is "ignorant." As Jan posted above about All Nippon, pretty much any Asian airline is going to treat you better than American, Delta, or United. Ditto for any Middle East airline.
I work in the aviation industry, and, in that industry, AA, DE, and UA are considered the bottom feeders... the airlines that you use if you absolutely can't get a ticket on a decent airline. They are profitable precisely because they don't give a sh#t about you.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Apr 15, 2017 - 08:39pm PT
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I'd like to put in a good word for military flights - the kind where you sit on canvas cots along the sides of the plane, with the cargo heaped up in the middle. There was always some guy with a flashlight peering up into the exposed piping which inevitably was leaking from the ceiling to the floor.
The toilet was a Portapotty placed on a dais with steps leading up to it and surrounded by a shower curtain for privacy. You could only pray that you didn't hit bumpy weather while sitting on it and go flying through the curtain into the open bay. Food was cans of cold beanie weenies and M and Ms, potato chips and Coke. However, they were free if you were an ID card holder and they got you there and with a much better attitude than United.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Outside the Asylum
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Apr 15, 2017 - 08:45pm PT
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The origin of much of aviation law is maritime law. With considerable encrustations and infestations of commercial law, almost always tilted toward the corporation. And with a pile of government regulation on top, most of it good. (After all, government money has paid for most aviation innovation.) Which explains why airplanes have captains who are also pilots.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Apr 16, 2017 - 09:30am PT
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I'd like to put in a good word for military flights - the kind where you sit on canvas cots along the sides of the plane
Hell yeah, hops, aerial hitch-hiking. I saw the far east on hops out of Iwakuni Japan in the late 70s. We would get a C-130 up to the big AFB near Tokyo and go to where ever was available, the PI or South Korea. Once I missed the last MAC flight of the day out of Osan , of course I was broke and trying to get home. The terminal closed and 10 pm and there was martial law and a curfew in Korea at the time. Luckily the Marine Corps had a bird going back to Iwakuni so I talked my way onto it.
My buddy once caught a hop on the generals private jet, MAC rules were that any empty seats on a MAC flight were fair game for hops.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Apr 21, 2017 - 08:04pm PT
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Those United employees should apply for jobs with the Chicago Aviation Police. Or maybe vice versa. Heck I can't even tell them apart - they're probably all Trump supporters anyway.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 22, 2017 - 09:43am PT
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BITD I only flew UA cause my uncle was friends with the CEO (as well as Pres of the Am Soc of
Travel Agents) so free was the operative word. It also was nice flying free first class when I
wore my uniform - way better than jump-seating some sh!tty Navy transport. UA started its
downhill slide when the inmates gained control.
These days Alaska is my first choice followed by American, with British for all overseas.
When you show some loyalty they do too. It was nice being upgraded to business from
econ+ in Zurich. Even nicer was being upped to first from MIA to EZE (Buenos Aires)!
Had to rough it in business on the return. :-/
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 22, 2017 - 09:53am PT
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The only way to die, I mean fly!
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 22, 2017 - 11:53am PT
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I'd pay double to fly without entitled moms and their spoiled brats.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Apr 22, 2017 - 12:25pm PT
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About the only airlines that I've had zero problems over the years have been Lufthansa and Delta. UAL is at the bottom of the barrel, with American a close second. When Continental was still owned by Robert Six and was Denver based, it was great. The it was sold, and sold again to United.
On International flights my one rule is the flight deck crew better be speaking English or German.
According to customer evaluations on TripAdvisor.com, their #1 for service is United Arab Emirates, followed by Singapore Airlines. Highest rated U.S. based airline is Jet Blue.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 22, 2017 - 02:06pm PT
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Roger that, Roger! 'oo else but a icy cool Brit would make an announcement to the pax after
a 747 four engine flameout caused by flying into an unreported volcanic cloud as follows?
"Ladies and gentlemen, this is your captain speaking. We have a small problem. All four
engines have stopped. We are doing our damnedest to get them going again. I trust you are
not in too much distress."
Of course, they landed safely. It was just a spot of bother, after all.
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Lollie
Social climber
I'm Lolli.
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Apr 22, 2017 - 02:14pm PT
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Don't volunteer for being bumped:
"A common practice among airlines in the U.S. is to offer a voucher for displaced travelers, but once passengers accept it, they enter a new agreement with the airline and waive their rights to further compensation. In the U.S., passengers who are delayed by more than an hour can receive 200% of the value of a one-way flight, capped at $650, while those delayed by more than two hours can receive 400% of the value, with a maximum at $1,300."
I have never been bumped. But then I mostly fly SAS, Lufthansa or some other European airline.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Apr 22, 2017 - 06:48pm PT
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Apparently not many TRANSLOVE AIRWAYS travelers, eh!
Get ya there on time.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 23, 2017 - 08:47am PT
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JB, Justin blocked yer vid from elucidating us!
Can't believe I got this ad! BwaHaHaHa!
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Karkoekstan, Former USSR
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Apr 23, 2017 - 09:05am PT
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How about dumbass air guard agent who left his loaded gun in the bathroom and a passenger find it and returned it to crew during flight.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Apr 23, 2017 - 12:04pm PT
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What's crazy to me is how United had no problem physically handling and harming someone as part of a commercial transaction. In a normal legal world if the passenger was contractually obligated to give up a seat and refused to do so he would be liable for the costs incurred by the airline finding some other solution. Instead they just beat his ass like the mafia or something.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Apr 27, 2017 - 03:32pm PT
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Don't volunteer for being bumped:
"A common practice among airlines in the U.S. is to offer a voucher for displaced travelers, but once passengers accept it, they enter a new agreement with the airline and waive their rights to further compensation.
That might be true but that is not how all airlines operate. I once took a bump and the flight I was moved to was full so they asked for volunteers, they were going to pay me again to bump, but by the time the flight was ready to go they did not need the seat.
You might be able to get more than 400 for a bump but in my experience there are always plenty of volunteers for 400 bucks.
United did a confidential settlement with the doctor they smacked around.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 27, 2017 - 05:48pm PT
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Tad, the good news is that flying has never been safer* so yer not gonna die.
The bad news is that dealing with United you may wish you would.
*Provided yer on one of my 'approved airlines'. ;-)
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2017 - 06:44pm PT
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Who wants to be a millionaire!
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Apr 27, 2017 - 07:15pm PT
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A question for you Reilly: You say your preferred carrier for "overseas" is British. I assume you mean British Airways -- which, in my experience, is pretty much the United of Europe. So my question is this: Have you ever flown on an Asian or Middle East airline?
If so, what happened that you didn't like?
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