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nocogear.com
Sport climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 1, 2017 - 12:45pm PT
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Hi all, just rummaging through our gear boxes and came upon this KB, just wondering if you think it is a Chouinard? No markings and very thick stock.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Not a Knifeblade per se due to the thickness but it certainly looks like an early Bugaboo style Chouinard piton with no stamp. The shape of the eye is distinctive. This piton doesn't appear to be cut by hand and likely was punched from sheet material using a profile die which would put it in the mid 1960s when Tom Frost started working with Yvon. I would have to check some catalogs to really pin this down, excuse the pun.
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nocogear.com
Sport climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 1, 2017 - 12:59pm PT
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Thanks! Yup good call, should've Bugged this one too, not just KB'd it.
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EdBannister
Mountain climber
13,000 feet
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possibly a first edition from Camp of Premana, Italy, they eventually produced the blades of this type for Chouinard Equipment.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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nocogear: Here's some photos of two of my old long medium Bugaboos. One is stamped <c> USA & one has no marking, but is obviously also a Chouinard Bugaboo, likely from from the early 1960's. The thickness of the steel around the eye ( 1/8") seems to be much less than yours, but I'll leave that up to you and folks that have a closer eye for details than I do.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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^^^ Ditto. I used one of his first blades on a climb we did together. Quite thin and rectangular.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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is there any dif b/w knifeblade and bugaboo?
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Here's a little help for the Chouinard Knifeblade & Bugaboo challeged.
The 1968 Chouinard catalog page on the subject.
Here's a photo of my collection of post 1972 Chouinard Knifeblades & Bugaboos. To me, the tips are all rounded.
And here is the 1972-74 Chouinard catalog page, with the expanded collection of Knifeblades & Bugaboos.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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The two thinnest versions of this style piton (standard and thick) were referred to as Knifeblades and the thicker ones as Bugaboos. Early on there were two followed by three thicknesses (thin, medium and thick) of Bugs offered in short and long versions but over time the thick versions were dropped from the line. The 1972-4 catalog page that Fritz posted shows the broadest selection.
Before the outline was standardized for production with dies in the mid 1960s there were all manner of lengths and thicknesses produced for this offset horizontal type of piton.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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I will pay an imaginary ten dollars to someone who posts a real, non-imaginary personal photo of a kb/bugaboo actually being used in climbing.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Mongolian Jugf*#kers in Heaven summit anchor, after second ascent (we hadda DC after the first).
I did sink and leave a #1 on lead about a month ago.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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I need to elaborate on the subject of rounded tips on Chouinard Knifeblades & Bugaboos.
The pre-1972 Knifeblades & Bugaboos had more rounded tips & the post-1972 were more squared-off & only rounded at the edges. Same with Chouinard Lost Arrows.
In this photo of 3 Long Medium Bugaboos, the one at left is unmarked & is likely from the early 1960's. the center one is likely from 1968 -1972 & is marked USA, & the right one with a more squared-off tip, has a second hole & dates post 1972, to about 1975-76, when Chouinard dropped that model of Bugaboo.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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This thread made me go to the attic, where my pins are molting.
Four things made the trip to my messy desk.
the Buggaboo is on the left, Lmost as thick as the OP's?The Tips Look Square to me.
Then there is one of (of,3) these,? the only markings are the stamped number 21"I'll call it my Tiny knife blade is it a RUP?
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WBraun
climber
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Knifeblades are thin.
Bugaboos are thick.
Why look at these pins?
Stick em into the rock where they belong .......
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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I looked in the garage where I thought I had a few old pitons left, but couldn't find any. The knife-blade I lost in 1959, I think, when Yvon and I were doing a climb in Garnet Canyon, was flat and rectangular, perhaps 2 inches long and an inch wide, and no 90 degree bent section where the hole was. The smaller flat rectangular area where there was a hole was a little thicker than the actual blade. But still not the same as the photos that are posted here. The square tip of the blade was almost sharp. This must have been one of his very early designs.
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Happy Cowboy
Social climber
Boz MT
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My first thought when I saw the pin was "CMI" Bugaboo. They were thicker than Chouinard blades and a slightly different shape. They also would mar more easily than Chouinard, as this pin shows.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Gnome- CMI Cracktacks.
CMI blades have a distinctive rounded eye shape unlike the shouldered anvil shape of the Chouinard blades.
These are some of my earliest unstamped Chouinard blades.
John- Yvon did make some vertical blades early on which seems to be what you are recalling. The blades were drawn out much like the offset blades shown above leaving a wavy surface.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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I agree with the square-tip coming from the GPIW in Ventura. But, wear may have rounded the corners.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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so, are KBs mainly driven in horizontally??? and vertically once in a while?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Since pitons are generally relegated to aid routes and aid routes usually follow vertical crack systems, most KB placements are vertical. The offset eye does help the piton resist shifting if it contacts the rock so the offset configuration is useful even in the vertical orientation.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Actually, since most of my walls have been FAs or clean ascents I have done very little stacking along the way. Leeper cam hooks changed everything.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Apr 26, 2017 - 09:20pm PT
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OK, I found three of my old blades. Unfortunately, I don't have a camera at this time so I can only describe them. One looks like the small one in the 1968 catalogue posted by Fritz. The one I described as about two inches long, an inch wide, flat and rectangular, with a hole in one thickened end, is stamped Holubar. The third is interesting: it is flat, very thin, rectangular with a half inch extension with a larger hole where it thickens slightly, but no 90 degree bend. It's purely a vertical pin, with no markings. Quite pretty, in fact. If I get a camera I'll post pictures. I'm guessing this last one must have been an early Chouinard experiment.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 26, 2017 - 10:56pm PT
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John,
If the photos below match your pitons, you may not need to find a camera.
earliest(?) Chouinard horizontal style knifeblade, from March 1960 Dolt Hut Catalogue Supplement #2
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=727870&tn=20
(thanks to Joe/guido)
Holubar knifeblade, photo by Steve Grossman
Chuck Wilts style knifeblade, photo from Yosemite Climbing Association
Chouinard vertical knifeblade, photo from March 1960 Dolt Hut Catalogue Supplement #2
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 27, 2017 - 02:07am PT
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When good knifeblades go bad...
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Apr 27, 2017 - 07:23pm PT
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Bug eaten...
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Apr 27, 2017 - 08:01pm PT
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The Holubar one is the one I have. The no. 206 in the last photo is like the last one I described, but mine has different dimensions, a longer blade and more attractive with the extension and hole closer in. Would look good on a necklace. Thanks.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Apr 30, 2017 - 06:29pm PT
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It's very hard to get a complete picture from just one image.
To me, it looks as if there's a pretty poor weld on the inside of the bend to the eye. A welded knifeblade would definitely an amateur garage job. Possibly a one off prototype. A picture of the bend from the outside would confirm or deny my guess.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Apr 30, 2017 - 06:56pm PT
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Man, my knifeblade collection has the living snot beaten out of it. The thin ones deform fairly easily with the crack. They could be really bomber if the crack was deep. If not, you tied them off, and they could still be really good..for aid.
A couple of the pics back, one looked like they had been put through a roller. There were several obvious steps down in thickness. I've done this in metal working class with softer metals. It must have been rolled when it was still glowing and soft.
The bent clip in hole was necessary if it was in a corner. That flat sucker would have been hard to even tie off if it had been placed in a corner.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Apr 30, 2017 - 07:56pm PT
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There is no weld on any production Chouinard blade.
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Gilroy
Social climber
Bolderado
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I agree but does that mean all Chouinard knifeblades are 'forgeries'? :)
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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some more questions -- apologies, but my generation doesn't know anything about pitons. Pretty much anyone under 30 has no experience with these things
q1 -- Orientation. I asked above about orientation, and someone answered (paraphrase) that the usual orientation is vertical as opposed to horizontal. Follow-up question -- is there an up/down orientation? i.e. do the eyelets tend to be in the high or low position upon placement?
q2 -- Clipping. There are two eyelets. I guess either one is clipped. Pictures would be nice to see.
q3 -- Cleaning. On a big wall I guess the cleaner just whacks on it upward, side to side, whatever, until it's loose enough to extract. Or maybe use a funkness device while wearing safety glasses (hopefully). Is this accurate? I know these things sometimes get welded and are left fixed. In an alpine context, is it as above (whacking on it with a tool)?
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Question one and two: The Bugaboos and knifblades with two holes can be used as a horizontal and a vertical piton. In my experience if the piton fits it is used regardless of what orientation it was meant for or listed for by the manufacturer or other.
Question three: Yes
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Another bit of arcane nomenclature: Piton Keeper
You youngsters will never know the powerful and manly feeling of a steel hammer swinging from your waist. It's heyday was the rise of the proletariat, the triumph of the Proud Worker.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Especially when heading for Sickle Ledge...LOL
So why did you forsake that manlyfest destiny for a chalkbag and some shorts then?
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the_dude
Mountain climber
anchorage, alaska
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I just climbed a route in Alaska that hadn't been climbed before. I found a big cache of Japanese gear from a 1978 attempt, including a sh#t ton of pitons.
All of these orange pitons had "Evernew" stamped on them. They were like any other basic piton of their era. We took 15 or so with us and used the sh#t out of them on the way up the route.
Has anyone ever seen one of these pitons around America before? I think it was a Japanese brand.
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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the_dude, I have been in touch with more than three hundred persons during the past twenty years but, unfortunately, none of them has been able to tell me if there were (if there are) manufacturers of climbing hardware in Japan, specialized in nuts and camming devices. I only have an old and heavy “wall hauler” stamped “made in Japan” in my collection and the company that made it, Alpine Top, seems not to be in the business anymore. In 1985, when visiting Chamonix, I bought a Friend extractor made or marketed by Miyazaki (?).
So, the_dude, were there nuts in the Japanese gear that you found in Alaska?
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the_dude
Mountain climber
anchorage, alaska
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Well, we sure as hell didn't see any, but there was a lot of ice surrounding that gear, so it's very possible there was a whole plethora of gear that we didn't see. Cool find none the less and we definitely used the hell out of about half of those pitons!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Very cool find!
Evernew is definitely a Japanese outdoor gear maker that I first became aware of for their cooking gear and headlamps. I don't think that they could compete with European hardware very well so you don't find it in the US very often.
Hope is another Japanese gear maker. Lots of their Alpinist ice axes were imported and sold by outfits like REI. Not so much of their other hardware shows up here.
In the 1970s Japanese expeditions were very numerous because their economy was doing well so I would suspect that these companies got into hardware to meet that demand alone.
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