Discussion Topic |
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| Messages 1 - 145 of total 145 in this topic |
Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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We are Devo!
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Thanks for the report.
They had a "scientist" on KPPC this morning regurgitating the same and stating that because of GW the Sierra Snowpack got considerably more water than snow this year so we are still in a drought.
Doesn't get much faker than that.
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brotherbbock
climber
Alta Loma, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 9, 2017 - 02:13pm PT
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^^^Great points made.
Yes the searches are so simple when you look into it.
I really think it is just plain stupidity nowadays.
I am just trying to do my part and talk to as many people as I can about it, especially the young ones. I've literally taught the basics of climate change and CO2 impacts to thousands of students at this point. Most feedback is positive although I can always tell the ones who have influence at home and are more close minded.
Before I had my son I wasn't as fearful for the future. Now my vested interest is in people and not money.
This is a fukd world we live in. Our priorities are so screwed....
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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This is a fukd world we live in.
Bad attitude.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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You don't understand. If they say it enough, its true.
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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Chump has turned the world upside down :-( He appointed an enemy of the environment to run the EPA. Pruitt's statements RE Climate Change prove that he is not qualified to run the EPA.
And, IMO, the EPA is in need of reform but NOT the ones that Pruitt has in mind. He will sacrifice air and water quality for fossil fuel and mining industry profits, as he did while AG of Oklahoma.
In the past few years, he has cast doubt on one of the central findings of climate science. He has sued the EPA to block it from enforcing rules against regional smog and airborne mercury pollution. At one point, he copy-and-pasted a letter from an oil company onto official state letterhead, added his signature, and mailed it to the agency he will soon run.
He even has a long-running kerfuffle about chickenshit. Drew Edmondson, Pruitt’s predecessor, alleged that Tyson Foods and other poultry companies were dumping too much chicken manure into the Illinois River. The river had become choked with toxic algae. But after becoming attorney general in 2011, Pruitt dropped that case, downgrading it to a voluntary investigation. He simultaneously dismantled his office’s in-house environmental-protection unit. The poultry industry later donated at least $40,000 to his reelection campaign.
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/01/scott-pruitt-and-oklahomas-manmade-earthquakes/513437/
Not to mention the swarm of man made earthquakes that occurred during his watch as Oklahoma AG that were caused by underground injection of oil field waste water and hydraulic fracturing...
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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as the petrochemist turned union buster said: "I like smog. It means someone is making money."
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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The EPA has been destoying quality of life in the U.S. for decades.
They may as well rename it now.
Maybe the Human Protection Agency?
Their clusterf*#k of regulations are being dismantled daily.
Finally.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Are you surprised? Many of Trump's picks are 2 beers short of a six pack
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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that's where Trump plans to build the first section of " The Wall "....
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Good post Locker. Trust the private companies to make money while saving the environment at the same time! After they've polluted the soil and groundwater, they'll just look to the Fed to fund a Superfund cleanup at taxpayer expense. That's the American way!
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Models looking pretty good, Pud. Thanks for asking.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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we debunked that Roy Spencer plot long ago... and it hasn't gotten any better with time..
if you're interested we could do it again, in fact, we can walk you through the steps to make your very own plots...
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monolith
climber
state of being
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And here's the update debunking Spencer and Christy's misleading graph.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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here is my plot with the RSS data...
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Too bad for you, the current government has no interest in walking through your graphs either Ed.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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the earth abides, brah. men shall not. - der Biblio del diablito
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Too bad for everyone pud.
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Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
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It's really damned simple. Look at the IR absorption spectrum of CO2. Consider a column as tall as the atmosphere, containing 0.025% of the stuff. Now consider the same column, containing >0.04% CO2.
That is why CO2 was understood to be a greenhouse gas in the late 1800s.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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ok. can you rephrase that for the LCD?
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Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
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Yeah, CO2 absorbs strongly in the infrared. That is an easy measurement to make. A measurement that any reasonably competent first-year college chemistry student could make. A measurement first made well over a hundred years ago.
The CO2 in the atmosphere traps heat, as in a greenhouse or a solar oven.
More CO2, more trapped heat.
CO2 in the atmosphere is now approaching twice the concentration it's been at any point in the last 800,000 years.
More heat is going to get trapped. The climate is going to get warmer.
Consequences will ensue.
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Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
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Too bad for you, the current government has no interest in walking through your graphs either Ed.
Pud is shown to be a lying piece of sh#t, and so he deflects.
The geophysics does not care what the current government thinks.
If Pud has kids they will suffer for his and the current government's lies.
Tell the kids what you think now, Pud. Tell them repeatedly, and often.
That way, they will be able to curse your memory.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Spiny I don't know who the fuk you are and don't really care.
A little man acting like a badass behind a keyboard is what you appear to be.
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brotherbbock
climber
Alta Loma, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 9, 2017 - 10:08pm PT
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Pud you are the one with a bad attitude. I'm just being realistic and realize where our governments priorities are when it comes to appeasing big oil for the sake of $$. It's fukd alright...
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Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
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"Spiny I don't know who the fuk you are and don't really care.
A little man acting like a badass behind a keyboard is what you appear to be.
You either understand the science — science that has been established for over a hundred years — or you don't, Pud.
We have known that combustion of carbon-based fuels releases CO2 for at least that long, and we've known that CO2 absorbs infrared for at least that long.
We've known for well over fifty years that the ability of the oceans to absorb all that CO2 is finite. We've known for well over fifty years that the excess CO2 is ending up in the atmosphere.
The rest follows.
Lie to your kids about the science, Pud. You too, Jody.
They will remember.
If you are lucky they will think only that their fathers were stupid, rather than malevolent.
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brotherbbock
climber
Alta Loma, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 9, 2017 - 10:22pm PT
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Yep not much to argue with there Spiny....
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Mar 10, 2017 - 12:34am PT
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Too bad for you, the current government has no interest in walking through your graphs either Ed.
more correct, the current administration, but that administration will not be in WDC forever.
and my guess is that the Congress, and the courts will have their say (and listen) in the meantime.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 10, 2017 - 01:07am PT
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Trump's administration is looking better every day.
As a bunch of carpetbagging traitors sacking, looting and dismantling the government goes, sure.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Mar 10, 2017 - 07:19am PT
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pud, Roy Spencer? Nice quote there...
Good thing Trump has dismantled all our efforts to collect data on climate, because then graphs like pud posted can't be contradicted with real data.
The EPA has been destoying quality of life in the U.S. for decades.
...
Their clusterf*#k of regulations are being dismantled daily.
Indeed. Now coal companies can pollute streams and small rivers without worrying about breaking any regulations. Progress!
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Mar 10, 2017 - 07:25am PT
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Different people come to Supertopo for different things. When some of us talk about science or politics, we come with a sincere mind to discuss ideas. Others of us have no such agenda. For some, it is simply a game to find a button in other people, to exploit what is perceived as a weakness to agitate them, and it somehow brings psychic relief or distraction from whatever ails the person.
When people are too wrapped up in their own issues and how to avoid them, they don't have the mental space to consider issues bigger than themselves. That is the source of the lack of concern for our collective well/being. A hungy kid can't focus on learning in a classroom, so the schools had subsidized meal programs. What can be done for these people here who are suffering and seek a combative distraction, need to feel some minor victory achieved by pushing other people's buttons?
Pud, Jody: what can other people do to help bring out a constructive version of yourselves? Can you envision a way to ease whatever ails you while applying yourself to the collective well-being rather than pitting yourselves against it?
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Mar 10, 2017 - 07:28am PT
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Trump's administration is looking better every day.
Sure, if you are uneducated.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Mar 10, 2017 - 07:28am PT
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And RJ Reynolds swore that cigarette smoking didn't cause cancer.. No suprise that Pruitt is going to pitch his product at any cost...No conflict of interest here , eh.. ?
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dirtbag
climber
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Mar 10, 2017 - 07:43am PT
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You can't reason with the willfully ignorant: you have to defeat them.
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dirtbag
climber
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Mar 10, 2017 - 08:17am PT
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Please tell us again how creation mythology is real...
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Mar 10, 2017 - 08:18am PT
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By the way, I hate to break it to you but consensus, computer models, etc. is NOT proof or science.
Well, there is no proof of science, is there Jody? That's why you think (using the term loosely) your uninformed opinions should have equal weighting with rigorous scientific analysis.
Curt
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brotherbbock
climber
Alta Loma, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 10, 2017 - 08:20am PT
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People like Jody are the problem.
Thanks for setting us back decades.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Mar 10, 2017 - 08:20am PT
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I think the attitude of seeking to defeat them is part of the problem because you win nothing when you "defeat" them. If we consider this virtual crucible as a model of the real world, what is the real-world analog of "defeating" them? Killing them, jailing them, or simply disempowering their "stupid" voices? Shunning them, so they collect together under a different banner with a new source of identity and then they have power to vote for choices that crumble what has taken decades to build?
That way doesn't work. That is the arrogance of the liberal side that in part brought our nation to the present mess, adding to the polarization of identity politics. Being technically correct is not justification to overpower rather than educate and build consensus. When we respond to unproductive attitudes with escalated rhetoric or use of force, seeking to overpower other voices with our "rightness", we lose the moral imperative and whatever goodwill needs to be built up for our peaceful coexistence and eventual victory of the "rightness" we seek.
In a virtual world we can just avoid people whose expressed ideas we strongly object to. One of the main reasons I don't do that here is because I'm trying to understand how to cut through identity politics and tap into our collective best interest to stop our governmental insanity.
Obviously I haven't cracked the code yet, but I know suppressing people who express different ideas isn't the way. My personal challenge is how to entice people of very different ideologies to see what serves our collective interest, and to accept when people are blatant in their preference for their personal comfort regardless of impact to others, because I can't change people. I can just introduce ideas and hope we find a common path for what is best for both/all of us.
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Mar 10, 2017 - 08:24am PT
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brotherblock, complain all you want, and then look at the scoreboard. :)
Hitler was pretty smug in the mid 1930's too.
Curt
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brotherbbock
climber
Alta Loma, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 10, 2017 - 08:27am PT
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brotherblock, complain all you want, and then look at the scoreboard. :)
In this thread you seem to be losing hahaha.
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brotherbbock
climber
Alta Loma, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 10, 2017 - 08:34am PT
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I'm pretty far from liberal actually....
You are making assumptions based on nothing. Makes sense now why you choose to ignore the science that the vast majority of the scientific community agree on.
Thanks for lumping up all the people who choose to look at the data all in one great big pot. You have proved your ignorance once again.
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Cragar
climber
MSLA - MT
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Mar 10, 2017 - 08:54am PT
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Jody or pud, can you explain how the science is wrong? Can you refute Ed or Spiny's simple plots?
Your lack of understanding science is your problem, it isn't about sides and scoreboards. I believe that's what team sports should take care in regards to the EGO. This subject is entirely different.
What if your doctor showed up to perform open heart surgery on you wearing a flannel, chaps and carrying a Stihl 044Mag? I assume you'd be ok with that based on your posts on this thread.
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brotherbbock
climber
Alta Loma, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 10, 2017 - 08:59am PT
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Like I said, consensus is NOT science.
I like James Balog's dentist analogy for people who don't believe in consensus.
Check out his documentary Chasing Ice and tell me what you think. As an added bonus he tries to not use all the fancy graphs you people on the "other side" fear so much but instead tells his story with simple pictures.
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Mar 10, 2017 - 09:03am PT
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Jody or pud, can you explain how the science is wrong? Can you refute Ed or Spiny's simple plots?
Jody can't. He has had ample opportunity to explain how the data is wrong, but can't.
Ed Hartuni:
Jody, what is your evidence that any of that data was incorrect?
k-man:
Jody, I'm actually interested in your reply to Ed's question because I want to understand how folks can look at scientifically verified reports and call them fake or false.
When confronted on facts, he simply goes silent--only to reappear much later to lob another hand grenade. He really is the ultimate troll.
Curt
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c wilmot
climber
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Mar 10, 2017 - 09:06am PT
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So what's the plan to reduce human caused climate change? How many want strict immigration control and a reduction of the US population?
It seems wildly hypocritical that the people most "concerned". About climate change are the same people who want an open border
"Researching" a problem you have no intention of fixing is quite pointless
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Mar 10, 2017 - 09:06am PT
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Let's bring back leaded fuel...Smog is actually not detrimental to your health...There's no consensus on the risks of breathing smog...
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brotherbbock
climber
Alta Loma, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 10, 2017 - 09:07am PT
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Here is the analogy Balog uses:
"If you had an abcess in your tooth,
would you keep going to dentist after dentist
until you found a dentist that said,
ahhh, don't worry about it.
Leave that rotten tooth in.
Or would you pull it out because more
of the other dentists told
you you had a problem?
That's sort of what we're
doing with Climate Change.
We'll be arguing about this for centuries.
We're still arguing about a
minor thing called evolution,
a minor thing about whether man
actually walked on the moon.
We don't have time."
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Mar 10, 2017 - 09:14am PT
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The bleeding hearts here pretend to know the future. Their crystal ball is clear and they can tell us all the future horrible effects of our existence.
Your fear based ideologies and unproven theories and huge ego's must spell truth!
You speak of your concern for children then you want to tax the air.
Even if it causes pain, suffering and death in poorer nations struggling to take care of their populations.
Hypocrites at best.
You are right and everyone else is wrong. You have "proof"! Look at the models, the graphs, the theories!
Oh wait,
it's all based on theory and you have no proof.
Fortunately, the adults are now in charge and your insanity is contained, for the time being.
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brotherbbock
climber
Alta Loma, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 10, 2017 - 09:16am PT
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^^^Wow!
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Cragar
climber
MSLA - MT
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Mar 10, 2017 - 09:30am PT
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pud, why the insults and hyperbole? Can you refute the simple plots to back up your claims? If you need to you can still include insults but it would be nice to see some articulation of your claims.
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Nick Danger
Ice climber
Arvada, CO
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Mar 10, 2017 - 09:44am PT
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I have steered clear of posting on these kinds of threads in the past, and may regret doing so today, but here goes.....
First off, I don't think Jody and Pud are "Lying pieces of sh#t". I have seen both artistry and thoughtfulness in some of their previous posts, just not here today. I find it just sad when the discussion degenerates into name calling and us vs them diatribes. These gentlemen believe what they believe and others disagree, but nothing is gained by being poopy towards one another. Along those lines, I have developed a real admiration for Nutagain's thoughtful posts, both here and elsewhere.
I have loved science since I was but a wee lad, which is probably why I became a scientist. While my area of expertise, such as it is (or isn't) is not climate science, I have indulged in a bit of paleoclimatology in some of the projects I have worked on. As such, I rather think that the whole anthropogenic warming of the climate train has left the station. At this point going forward humanity is going to be dealing with the results. During the last glacial period Dansgaard-Oeschger events manifested temperature increases of 5 to 8 degrees C over the course of a few decades (typically 40 to 50 years), then required several hundred years to dampen that temperature signal out to the previous norm. While the cause of D-O events is not definitively known, some researchers suspect changes in deep ocean circulation patterns as a likely cause. (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dansgaard%E2%80%93Oeschger_event and references therein for more details). This seems likely to me, although I have no special insight into their cause. The shutting down of the North Atlantic deep circulation pattern is one of the results forecast in many climate models going forward with increasing sea surface temperatures. Additionally, the example of D-O events suggests that relatively sudden increases in atmospheric and ground surface temp resulting from anthropogenic increases in CO2 will likely take many hundreds of years to dampen out. The average dwell time of CO2 in the atmosphere is likely going to extend the period of re-equilibration as well. There might also be a "tipping point" where the climate re-equilibrates to a new normal that is warmer than the recent Holocene has been for thousands of years, but we simply don't have enough data presently to do more than speculate on that one. Geologic history records periods of both "hot house earth" and "ice house earth", and the Holocene has largely been in the middle of those extremes. Really, the Holocene climate has been like little baby bear's porridge insofar as the development of complex societies are concerned - just right.
Humanity has survived worse climates than the one we are on a trajectory towards, including glacial maxima. While humanity will likely survive, I am less convinced that society will survive in its present form. As a species, we are destined to live through some very interesting times.
I close with this, every single person on Supertopo is my brother or sister, and I have the utmost respect and affection for all of you.
Cheers
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brotherbbock
climber
Alta Loma, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 10, 2017 - 10:18am PT
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For me I am less concerned with the advance and retreat of glaciers.
What concerns me is pollution.
We are poisoning our atmosphere and our oceans every day and now that activity is manifesting itself in perverse ways all around the world.
Climate has always changed and will always change. Our quality of life though is subject to what kinds of stewards we are to our planet. In my opinion we are not good stewards and our political leaders have failed us. They shine the shoes of big oil and cater to the ones with $$$.
Nice post Nick btw...
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Mar 10, 2017 - 10:31am PT
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nothing is gained by being poopy towards one another
Except for, you know, the Presidency, and stuff ...
Humans have the wildly advantageous adaptation to believe whatever is advantageous for them to believe, depending on their environment, and regardless of the truth, or which way their information/observations points. If part of your environment is that you need a job, science might not seem quite so believable.
But it runs both ways. It's not just a problem for them - it's a problem for us, and our beliefs, too. The way that we want human belief processes (and social interactions) to work may not be the way they actually do work.
The issue is not so much what is true about climate change - the scientists are telling us that - it's more about what is true about why people believe what they believe.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Mar 10, 2017 - 10:46am PT
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All that advancing and retreating wasn't caused by human greenhouse emissions.
Nicely said! You've effectively refuted the proposition that humans are responsible for all of the changes in climate during the earths history. But I think the debate is about something else.
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Cragar
climber
MSLA - MT
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Mar 10, 2017 - 10:54am PT
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Thanks Jody but like rbord said, it is something different. RE: the 'science' you posted above, what makes it more credible than the graphs from Ed and Spiny? Also, what drove you to assemble the statement, question, link to wiki and lastly your final statement? Is there some science in there that you believe?
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Mar 10, 2017 - 10:56am PT
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One point I seldom hear discussed about climate change is the impact of deep ocean currents. Rachel Carson wrote a great book in the 1950s called "The Sea Around Us". She talks about the effect of deep ocean currents with different temperature profiles, and the major impact that long-term cycles in these deep currents can have on surface weather, and she muses on how these patterns may have contributed to human history in terms of periods of exceptionally harsh weather in Europe that altered the outcome of different wars, etc.
https://www.amazon.com/Sea-Around-Us-Special/dp/0195069978
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Mar 10, 2017 - 10:59am PT
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Jody, I appreciate the track of your last post. Thank you!
It is easy to replicate an experiment to show that increased CO2 in a gas causes retention of heat.
The point at which I became a believer in human-caused CO2 was review of the ice core data in the early 1990s, which showed historical cycles of CO2 in the range of 200-300 parts per million, and then a big spike near the time of the industrial revolution. Something like this:
If you want to be skeptical of the method of data collection and analysis, that is very reasonable and scientific. Explore a variety of hypotheses for how this could be massaged to obtain a preconceived result. I'm open to that discussion.
Here is one website that explores that line of thinking:
https://www.skepticalscience.com/co2-measurements-uncertainty.htm
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Mar 10, 2017 - 05:10pm PT
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By the way, I hate to break it to you but consensus, computer models, etc. is NOT proof or science.
a point of fact, Jody is no scientist, and many prolonged discussions with him on STForum has demonstrated little knowledge of what constitutes scientific proof, or what science is.
His current posts on this thread are entirely consistent with his posts in the past, and even when we've had discussions and rather detailed descriptions of science, he will generally take his point of view over any evidence which might indicate otherwise.
pud doesn't like someone like me telling him anything, especially if it is contrary to what he knows, and prefers to take his "authority" from some one he has never even had a discussion with, over someone who is willing to have a discussion. That's too bad.
As for what might happen to humans, we don't know, and that is precisely the point. As much as we study the past and piece together the history of climate, the relevant period is the past 2 to 5 million years, which is very recent. The Earth that went through such extreme climate changes was not one that humans had to deal with (Jody, in the past, would debate the age of the Earth).
Now we could ask the question: is it necessary to vent all that CO₂ into the atmosphere? In particular, the problem we have was caused by the USA's energy production, and while the USA is not currently the largest emitter of CO₂ it is the second largest, for most (all?) of the 20th century it was number 1.
The risks of emitting that much CO₂ are real, what will happen we don't know for sure, but we do know that waiting to find out may put us in a situation where we cannot respond. We have no known way of extracting the CO₂ rapidly from the atmosphere, and its lifetime is estimated to be 100 years or so.
Given the risks, and the science predictions of the climate's response to increased CO₂ emissions, a country like the USA can find ways of generating the necessary energy without those emissions. It certainly will not be without increased costs, but pricing the cost associated with the risks indicates that what we spend now will be much less than what we would have to spend later if we do nothing.
The vast majority of economists looking at this conclude that a CO₂ tax is the best, most direct way to alter our energy use habits. And it is perhaps the most flexible in terms of responding to our increased knowledge of climate science as well as responding to climate change. It gives you the freedom to choose your own energy use, recovering the costs associated with that use.
And while the EPA Chief is entitle to his opinion, he is sworn to up hold the Constitution and the laws of the land, and those are not going to change very rapidly.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Mar 10, 2017 - 06:11pm PT
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I pity the person(s) who think they can debate scientific fact, with Ed.
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Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
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Mar 10, 2017 - 06:15pm PT
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Well and clearly said, Ed.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
Bishop,CA
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Mar 10, 2017 - 06:16pm PT
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^^^^^^^^^^
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Mar 10, 2017 - 06:36pm PT
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As for what might happen to humans, we don't know
Thanks for your insight and ability and generosity in sharing it!
I agree - but maybe from a different point of view.
That uncertainty about what will happen to humans - the fact that we compute our beliefs using incomplete information - is also, IMHO, precisely the point that allows (encourages? supports?) our human ability and willingness and predisposition to form beliefs and points of view that aren't supported by the evidence, but that maybe will turn out to be more effective in producing an outcome that is more favorable to humans (or maybe just the human forming the belief).
Logic on incomplete information is not guaranteed to produce a true belief, but we might produce a true belief using other diverse methods. When push comes to shove, it doesn't really matter what other people believe - even the vast majority of other people - each human instance believes what they believe.
But that belief is not produced by logic on our current incomplete information in all human instances. IMHO, on average, science will produce the best results for one instance. But with a large number of instances, one instance might produce better results (a true belief) "randomly." Or seemingly randomly, given our lack of information to understand it.
Human lives are cheap, and it may be that the human belief processes that have evolved, where everyone doesn't use logic on our currently incomplete information, may be more effective in producing one instance with a fitter answer than science on incomplete information has produced.
But how do we tell? That's above my pay grade, but I think it's time's job.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Mar 10, 2017 - 06:40pm PT
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I'm not seeing the connection between paying more money to the government ( tax ) and the climate.
What would the government spend the money on that would do anything positive for the climate? Especially our government.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Mar 10, 2017 - 06:42pm PT
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You have no problen taxing people that have to fight hunger everyday just to survive because you "think" you can predict the future.
Big brain maybe. Small heart for sure.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Mar 10, 2017 - 06:46pm PT
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Seems like the wrong tool for the job.
Praying To Jesus would be just as effective - and a whole lot less expensive.
I spent a lifetime in the alcohol biz. Trust me, that's not an example that's going to work.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Mar 10, 2017 - 06:52pm PT
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Pud, what do you think is a better alternative to account for the increased risk of making highly populated areas of our planet unlivable in the future? Is it ok for a small group of folks to have jobs in a dying industry while someone else has to pay for the consequences, including moving millions of people and restructuring cities, utility distribution, land ownership issues when speculators have bought up the alternative spots, etc....
What if my way of making a living involved burning down your house. Are you cool with that? Probably not.
As for people starving or barely getting by... that is what other parts of our national economic policies need to deal with (for example, baseline income, taxing higher those who are aggregating the wealth, etc.) Ignoring problem X because of problem Y is not sensible.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Mar 10, 2017 - 06:54pm PT
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I deal with people who are short on their rent from time to time - and it terrifies them. Twenty bucks or so is enough to make a big difference sometimes.
Any new tax is going to f*#k those folks.
Edited for NutAgain's next post:
Just totally f*#king heartless. Nobody wants welfare.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Mar 10, 2017 - 06:56pm PT
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Chaz, see my previous post.
It boils down to paying for the TRUE cost of using a resource, even if that cost is not obvious right away. Collectively we cannot avoid paying the cost prescribed by the laws of physics. But the question is, do we allow companies (and all of us) to exploit the time-delay loophole to steal profits or artificially get lower prices while someone else will have to be accountable for that?
A funny story that serves as a perfect metaphor: After going to a dentist one time, my younger brother was amused at how numb his face was from a local anesthetic. He repeatedly hit himself in the mouth to show how it didn't hurt. You can imagine how he felt when the time-delayed consequences of those actions caught up with him. Now imagine if I was the one hitting him in the face to show him it didn't hurt. Would you think I was being fair?
For the slow folks in the audience, in that metaphor, I'm the petroleum industry and climate change deniers, and my younger brother is everyone else.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Mar 10, 2017 - 07:13pm PT
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The fact is, the GW alarmists here and elsewhere have lost the war but continue to battle.
This is a good place for you all to keep talking about how right you are.
Carry on.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Mar 10, 2017 - 07:18pm PT
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In response to: "Just totally f*#king heartless. Nobody wants welfare."
I agree it would be better if we can support a system that empowers everyone to enjoy the dignity of work. But the fact is, removing regulations to let businesses operate unfettered is not going to create that circumstance. If you want to talk about heartless, talk about the people lying to the masses about how removing government regulations is going to make their lives better.
As for cost-accounting now for the future mitigation of our present actions, I think an old adage says it best: "a stitch in time saves nine." To me, one stitch is less heartless than nine stitches.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Mar 10, 2017 - 07:23pm PT
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dee ee
Mountain climber
Of THIS World (Planet Earth)
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Mar 10, 2017 - 07:59pm PT
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it's probably already been said but "f*#kin' idiot."
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dirtbag
climber
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Mar 11, 2017 - 07:21am PT
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Jody, if you really cared you could spend 12 seconds googling and find an explanation.
But you don't care, you're just wanking.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Mar 11, 2017 - 07:37am PT
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^^^
Well that's proof enough for me. Matter settled!
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Mar 11, 2017 - 07:56am PT
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Nobody has yet explained to me why the ice age began melting 10000 years ago.
Dang Jody, you haven't been able to figure that out yourself after all this time? They are call Milankovitch cycles. And we are on the generally downward temp phase of the interglacial period. That is until humans started emitting CO2 in massive amounts.
Anthropomorphic forcing is much stronger than Milankovitch cycles.
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Mar 11, 2017 - 08:15am PT
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Sheesh, do you folks EVER relax and just enjoy life?
In case anyone wondered where "ignorance is bliss" came from.
Curt
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Mar 11, 2017 - 08:34am PT
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It says a lot about human psychology that it takes a war for us to come together in a big way and spend a lot of money to solve a technical problem such as with the Manhattan project.
When it comes to climate change, which is a huge threat, we argue about whether it is real or whether we need to do anything.
Our economic models and systems do not take into account the full costs of an activity.
A carbon tax is a good start, we just have to figure out a method to apply in correctly.
We even have a carbon tax in fossil fuel rich Alberta, few people complain about it, and it is not destroying our economy.
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Mar 11, 2017 - 11:05am PT
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Enjoy your paranoid, worrisome life.
You enjoy your's too.
Curt
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Mar 11, 2017 - 11:55am PT
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We do have some control in choosing where we live, which will matter in the future. Even without climate change there will be population and water issues. Don't buy seaside property, make sure you will have fresh water
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Mar 11, 2017 - 12:04pm PT
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Deleted, so as not to be too much of an a-hole.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 11, 2017 - 02:56pm PT
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Let's be clear, there is currently a radical assault underway on the very fabric of our government and way of life that had it been launched by a foreign power (and it may well have been) we would be at war. There is now a pillaging carpetbagger at the head of each federal agency and these are not 'reformers', people who care about the working people, or people with integrity - no, each and every one of them is a handpicked rapist assigned to kill their agency and dismantle the federal government. Traitors to a man and women as far as I'm concerned. And by the time they're done the working men and women of America who voted for them are going to be rueing the that day because the damage that's going to be inflicted is mainly going to land on their and their children's heads.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Mar 11, 2017 - 02:58pm PT
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One big element of control we have includes our choice of elected leaders.
Everyone has acces to watching the Steve Bannon video at CPAC where he specifically says the heads of these departments were picked to facilitate the deconstruction of those agencies. That is not a conspiracy theory- those were his own words and him fully on the record in a publicly released video within the last month.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 11, 2017 - 02:59pm PT
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And we just failed one the biggest intelligence tests ever given.
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divad
Trad climber
wmass
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Mar 11, 2017 - 03:00pm PT
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"Such are promises, all lies and jest
Still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest"
Paul Simon
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Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
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Mar 11, 2017 - 03:55pm PT
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No, not ignorance, just the ability to NOT worry about something I have no control over.
Jody has repeatedly demonstrated that he knows essentially nothing about the relevant science — and that some of the things he "knows" are wrong in ways that are trivial to demonstrate.
That is the definition of ignorance.
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Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
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Mar 11, 2017 - 03:57pm PT
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The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which low-ability individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly assessing their ability as much higher than it really is. Dunning and Kruger attributed this bias to a metacognitive incapacity, on the part of those with low ability, to recognize their ineptitude and evaluate their competence accurately.
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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Mar 11, 2017 - 08:56pm PT
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Mar 12, 2017 - 09:50am PT
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This has to be one of the most incompetent administrations the US has ever seen.
I am sure there will be lots of unintended consequences from their legislation and we will look back and say what were they thinking.
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brotherbbock
climber
Alta Loma, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 13, 2017 - 08:15am PT
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Spiny,
I never heard of the DK effect before. Damn it all makes so much sense now.... :)
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 13, 2017 - 08:22am PT
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This has to be one of the most incompetent administrations the US has ever seen.
No, they aren't incompetent, they're traitors to a man and woman. This week they're about to launch the worst assault on our government and way of life since Pearl Harbor.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Mar 13, 2017 - 09:11am PT
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healyje:
No, they aren't incompetent, they're traitors to a man and woman. This week they're about to launch the worst assault on our government and way of life since Pearl Harbor.
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brotherbbock
climber
Alta Loma, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 13, 2017 - 09:31am PT
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Pud as well as Jody are low-ability individuals I guess according to the DK effect.
LO FUKN L
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Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
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Mar 13, 2017 - 10:55am PT
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So far as I can tell, Jody has his areas of proficiency. Just not in science. If Pud has any areas of proficiency they're not evident.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Mar 13, 2017 - 11:07am PT
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The only thing worse than someone who is dumb and lazy is someone who is dumb and eager
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Mar 13, 2017 - 11:11am PT
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chaz wrote:
"I'm not seeing the connection between paying more money to the government ( tax ) and the climate.
What would the government spend the money on that would do anything positive for the climate? Especially our government."
This is why a carbon tax needs to be revenue NEUTRAL.
RNCF = Revenue Neutral Carbon Fee.
All money taken in will be paid out in reduced income and social security tax rates on low and middle income brackets. Every year an estimate will be made of the carbon revenue and income/Soc Sec rates will be reduced AHEAD of time to balance out to zero. So there is no New tax. It is a tax SHIFT.
It doesn't violate the Republicans pledge for no new taxes.
To the government, there is no more revenue money than before.
Any slight remainder will go into the calculation for the next year.
I say this because it will be a complete bureaucratic waste of money if it gets treated like a typical California initiative with 300 pages of forming new permanent government commissions who will burn thru all the funds.
Although there are some things that some of the money should be spent on: 1. just bringing back the federal transport fund back into balance (since gas taxes haven't increased in decades) and
2. incentives to partly cover the cost of green energy,
I think those things are best treated separately, to keep the main policy of a RNCF simple.
No other factors need to be considered. No additional government agency is even needed since we already have the existing very simple gas tax system. The RNCF simply makes people pay for the external costs of their carbon emissions. This makes a strong incentive for all other sources of energy and conservation, without the government actually picking any winners. The amount of the RNCF can be increased over a period of 5 years to phase it in so people can plan how they choose to adapt their own emissions.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Mar 13, 2017 - 12:01pm PT
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We almost all know co2 is causing warming but I will wait out 4 more trips of the Sun going around the earth to give those dumb ass deniers time to learn some science before I really complain that it is getting to damn hot here.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Mar 13, 2017 - 12:12pm PT
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Hexxus Pruitt has spoken. So it shall be...
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Mar 13, 2017 - 02:11pm PT
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Pseudo scientists complimenting one another's intellect. The irony!
How do all you big brains fit into one thread?
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Mar 13, 2017 - 02:25pm PT
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How do all you big brains fit into one thread?
The space you and Jody don't need probably gets reallocated.
Curt
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Cragar
climber
MSLA - MT
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Mar 13, 2017 - 02:36pm PT
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Ha! Curt chimes in appropriately
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Mar 13, 2017 - 03:00pm PT
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You got a little something on your chin there crager
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Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
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Mar 13, 2017 - 03:19pm PT
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Tell us about the IR absorption spectrum of CO2, Pud. It's been known for over a century. Easily reproduced by any reasonably competent first year chemistry major.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Mar 13, 2017 - 03:57pm PT
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I can tell you about the decomposition rate of high vs low explosives, I do not however hold a degree in chemistry.
You do?
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Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
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Mar 13, 2017 - 04:16pm PT
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So might be better to defer to people who actually know what they are talking about, yes?
I'll defer to you on the decomposition rate of explosives. Or, you know, do some serious reading if I at some point decide I need to not look like a moron when talking about explosives.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Mar 13, 2017 - 04:25pm PT
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You didn't answer my question
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Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
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Mar 13, 2017 - 04:43pm PT
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I am a life science professor, in a medical school. I have done a fair amount of undergrad and grad level chemistry coursework, though my degrees are not in chemistry. My spouse did grad work in oceanography which necessarily included a lot of atmospheric science as well.
I know enough to know that mainstream climatologists tend to say things that are compatible with the fundamentals of physics and chemistry, while most climate deniers I've encountered routinely say things that are not compatible with those fundamentals.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Mar 13, 2017 - 05:16pm PT
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Some of the deniers make Al Qaeda look progressive
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Mar 13, 2017 - 05:27pm PT
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Spiney,
You sound like a bright guy. If this is true you would understand the medium you are using and how ineffective it is at judging others.
I'm also guessing you're a pretty badass fighter from the way you address others when they don't see things your way. Of course, I doubt you are just talking the talk when you refer to others as a "lying piece of shit" and am sure you could back up this type of talk in person.
Not everyone is going to agree with you.
I have never 'denied' our climate is changing.
The fact is, you don't know what the future holds and you don't know if we can do anything to prevent or stop climate change.
Throwing money at this issue in the hopes that governments around the world will use this capital appropriately and combat pollution is naive at best.
The very best thing one can do is to live efficiently. Don't waste, don't litter, always conserve, vote and teach your children to do the same.
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Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
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Mar 13, 2017 - 06:07pm PT
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Pud, you posted a data graphic that used cherry-picked data to indicate something about climate that was categorically untrue.
When called on it by Ed and others, you did not do what an honorable person would do: admit the error (or rebut Ed's data with better data) and move on. Instead you dissembled, evaded, tried to change the subject.
On this topic, at least, you're not honest. I stand by my assessment.
Maybe in other domains you're a different person. I've seen no evidence of that one way or another.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Mar 13, 2017 - 06:41pm PT
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Does he have to be more honest than your President?
Or maybe he didn't mean what he said?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Mar 13, 2017 - 07:53pm PT
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pud: "Pseudo scientists..."
pot calling the kettle black?
I'm am a scientist... you are not.
I suspect this will not alter one bit your own belief... you don't care about evidence, and the evidence is that humans are the major contributing cause to the 20th century climate.
As such, we can alter our behavior and reduce our contributions.
What do you teach your children?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Mar 13, 2017 - 08:12pm PT
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I'm am a scientist... you are not.
I'm glad you're not an English professor.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Mar 13, 2017 - 08:46pm PT
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And TGT2 posts & apparently believes that one cold front means the whole scientific history of global warming is wrong.
TGT2! Here's another group of deniers for you to join.
It's likely that you can start new Pro-Global warming groups in the mountains of any western state after this winter.
and
You will all be wrong, because you think, or pretend to think, a single obsevation is more important than a long-term trend.
Sigh.
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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Mar 13, 2017 - 11:02pm PT
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Boyz, boyz, boyz...please now, lets be civil :-)
None of us can predict the future. However, we can make informed predictions based on scientific evidence that is preserved in the stratigraphic record. For example the Paleocene Eocene Thermal Maximum (PETM) about 56 million years ago (MYA) serves as an interesting analogue for the current climatic trends and the impact that these trends are likely to have on the future quality of life on our planet.
The Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum: A Perturbation of Carbon Cycle, Climate, and Biosphere with Implications for the Future
Annu. Rev. Earth Planet. Sci. 2011. 39:489–516
This article’s doi: 10.1146/annurev-earth-040610-133431
ABSTRACT
During the Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum (PETM), ∼56 Mya, thousands of petagrams of carbon were released into the ocean-atmosphere system with attendant changes in the carbon cycle, climate, ocean chem- istry, and marine and continental ecosystems. The period of carbon release is thought to have lasted <20 ka, the duration of the whole event was ∼200 ka, and the global temperature increase was 5–8 C. Terrestrial and marine organisms experienced large shifts in geographic ranges, rapid evolution, and changes in trophic ecology, but few groups suffered major extinctions with the exception of benthic foraminifera. The PETM provides valuable insights into the carbon cycle, climate system, and biotic responses to environmental change that are relevant to long-term future global changes.
The PETM has been identified and documented in over 140 locations worldwide as shown in this Paleogeographic map showing the distribution of the continents 56 MYA and the locations where the Paleocene-Eocene boundary has been sampled. The marine stratigraphic record across the Paleocene-Eocene boundary almost universally exhibits a decrease in carbonate content indicating ocean acidification. Note the Indian sub-continent has separated from Africa and is on its way to a collision event with the Eurasian plate forming the Himalayas.
One of the possible explanations for the source of all that CO2 that was released into the atmosphere during the PETM is the recycling of the carbonate rocks on the descending plate in front of the Indian subcontinent as it is subducted beneath Eurasia resulting in melting and outgassing of CO2 into the atmosphere due via volcanic eruptions as shown in this conceptual model...
More on the PETM from Skeptical Science….
But now that we humans have embarked on a global warming experiment, there are some useful lessons from the past (PETM):
1) The rapid pulse of PETM CO2 followed by rapid warming (figure 2e) indicates high climate sensitivity.
2) CO2 does indeed appear to have a long atmospheric lifetime.
3) Ocean acidification (of the deep sea at least) can occur even under conditions of CO2release much slower than today.
4)Present acidification of the ocean is far greater than the PETM, and is probably unprecedented in the last 65 million years.
Whether the plants and animals upon which humans depend can survive the present rapidly changing environment remains to be seen.
https://www.skepticalscience.com/news.php?p=2&t=65&&n=797
What eventually happened to all that CO2 that ended up in the atmosphere during the PETM?
Silicate rock weathering following the rise of the Himalayas resulted in a natural CO2 sink that essentially transferred CO2 from the atmosphere and deposited it in the oceans in the form of carbonate rocks. A complete recycling of the oceanic crust on time scales of 150-200 million years.
The weathering of rocks is estimated to involve the drawdown of about a gigaton of atmospheric carbon dioxide a year. That sounds a bit hopeless when compared to the ~30 gigatons emitted by humans burning fossil fuels every year. Over geological timespans, however, the amount of carbon dioxide removed from the atmosphere via weathering is huge, at around a million gigatons per million years. Globally, limestones and other carbonate-based sedimentary rocks are a phenomenally important carbon sink that is relatively stable in nature: they are estimated to hold over 60 million gigatons of carbon - compared e.g. to the estimated total of 720 gigatons carbon dioxide that is present in the atmosphere and the 38,400 gigatons present in all of the oceans.
Silicate minerals occur widely in nature. Some globally-abundant rocks - such as basalts - are mostly composed of silicates. There exists a great variety of different silicate minerals - for example the feldspars, micas, olivines, pyroxenes and amphiboles to name but a few groups - that combine silicon and oxygen with potassium, sodium, calcium, magnesium, aluminium, iron and many other elements. Silicates weather via rather more complex reactions, but let's simplify things with a generalised equation for the process using the calcium silicate CaSiO3, which occurs naturally as the mineral wollastonite:
2CO2 + 3H2O + CaSiO3 = Ca2++ 2HCO3– + H4SiO4
carbon dioxide + water + calcium silicate = calcium ions + bicarbonate ions + silicic acid (in solution)
The dissolved calcium and bicarbonate ions travel in groundwater to the rivers and thereby find their way to the sea, where they are reprecipitated as calcium carbonate. The reprecipitation is mainly biogenic - it involves various creatures making their shells or skeletons from calcium carbonate:
Ca2++ 2HCO3– = CaCO3 + CO2 + H2O
https://www.skepticalscience.com/weathering.html
Rock weathering, in addition to the establishment of the circ#m-Antarctic current, lead to global cooling that persisted throughout the remainder of the Cenozoic until the industrial age (last 150 years) when fossil fuel burning created a CO2 flux into the atmosphere that is unprecedented since before the PETM. Atmospheric heating associated with this excess flux of anthropogenic CO2 into the atmosphere has forced the icehouse trend into the current greenhouse (aka hothouse) trend.
As monolith posted ^^^,
They are call(ed) Milankovitch cycles. And we are on the generally downward temp phase of the interglacial period. That is until humans started emitting CO2 in massive amounts.
Anthropomorphic forcing is much stronger than Milankovitch cycles
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 13, 2017 - 11:19pm PT
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noreaster
If you had ever lived in the NE you'd know there nothing uncommon about nor'easters - late winter nor'easter are not even vaguely uncommon in the NE. The year I moved from NH to OR we got dumped on by two feet of wet snow on April 18th the destroyed a massive amount of old sugar maples - still, nothing terrible out of the ordinary.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Mar 14, 2017 - 05:10am PT
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Pud,
go pound your pud ..........
It is a private matter when you need to satisfy such fantasies ....
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divad
Trad climber
wmass
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Mar 14, 2017 - 06:55am PT
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And TGT2 posts & apparently believes that one cold front means the whole history of global warming is wrong.
And 3 weeks ago we had a first ever February tornado in Massachusetts. Not that it means anything...
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brotherbbock
climber
Alta Loma, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 14, 2017 - 08:18am PT
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Thank you Fritz for saying what was on the tip of my tongue as well. TG's posts are the most laughable type of counter evidence.
People don't realize that a warming trend can ironically cause cooler temperatures in certain places. For example continued melting of ice will undoubtedly change the thermohaline circulation of the North Atlantic Current and thus the amount of heat that Europe normally receives.
Climate deniers seem to miss these points.
The very best thing one can do is to live efficiently. Don't waste, don't litter, always conserve, vote and teach your children to do the same.
Pud it would seem that by based on what you say you actually care about pollution. Why do you not seem to care that the chemistry of the air you and your children breathe is changing? The oceans are the biggest absorbers of our CO2 and the chemistry is changing there as well. Climate is going to always change I agree....regardless of what humans do. But to be so naive and say we are not having any effects on our planet at all is mind blowing.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Mar 14, 2017 - 02:56pm PT
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There was a similar ST thread that went for many thousands of posts that ultimately got deleted; in between the usual insults there was also sorts of interesting info.
But it may not be as much fun without The Chief and some of the others that I think are gone now.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Mar 15, 2017 - 12:18pm PT
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Overall, One party hates the Earth, one wants to save it.
The vote was 52-46.
Two Democrats voted to confirm Pruitt: Sen. Heidi Heitkamp of North Dakota and Sen. Joe Manchin of West Virginia. Just one Republican voted against Pruitt: Sen. Susan Collins of Maine. Two senators did not vote: Democratic Sen. Joe Donnelly of Indiana and Republican Sen. John McCain of Arizona.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Mar 15, 2017 - 04:26pm PT
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But to be so naive and say we are not having any effects on our planet at all is mind blowing.
Where do you get this?
Talk about mind blowing. How about all the wannabe scientists here acting as though they just discovered penicillin?
Or Ed hartuoni raving about how important his ideas are.
Or Spineless talking about his wife being a climate change pro and his peripheral expertise.
Give me a fuking break.
You people don't really care about the future of the children, if you did you wouldn't promote a tax that would harm so many of them. You are mostly bored, middle age men without cause, looking for a reason to bitch.
I really like ST for many reasons.
The crybabies on this thread, not so much.
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Mar 16, 2017 - 07:55am PT
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Talk about mind blowing. How about all the wannabe scientists here acting as though they just discovered penicillin?
Or Ed hartuoni raving about how important his ideas are.
You should probably direct your undeserved arrogance elsewhere. I have never heard Ed claim that his ideas are "important" and he is unbelievably patient in trying to explain how real science works to people like you, who don't understand it.
Curt
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Mar 16, 2017 - 08:24am PT
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You should probably direct your undeserved arrogance elsewhere.
This statement literally makes no sense.
Your're a sharp one alright.
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brotherbbock
climber
Alta Loma, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 16, 2017 - 10:24am PT
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Pud you are the biggest whiner of all.
Chill out.
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brotherbbock
climber
Alta Loma, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 16, 2017 - 12:15pm PT
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Here is where mein Fuhrer stands with his perception of importance...
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Key provisions in the Clean Water Act are now under the control of one person at the US Environmental Protection Agency -- Administrator Scott Pruitt, according to a leaked memo obtained by CNN.
In the new directive, Pruitt states he will make final critical decisions about preservation of streams, ponds and wetlands.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/04/politics/clean-water-act-epa-memo/
From Wikipedia:
After winning Attorney General election (of Oklahoma - remember fracking earthquakes?) in 2010, Pruitt dissolved the Environmental Protection Unit in the Attorney General's office. (see refs) He stated a desire to increase operational efficiency and shifted the attorneys responsible for environmental protection to the Attorney General's Public Protection Unit and the Solicitor General's Unit. Pruitt stated that "the Oklahoma Department of Environmental Quality – not the Office of Attorney General – has primary responsibility for implementing and enforcing environmental laws in Oklahoma."(see refs)
Fast forward...
"Thousands of emails detail EPA head’s close ties to fossil fuel industry". Pretty damning excerpts of emails showing he is a puppet to echo the requests of oil and gas companies to dismantle environmental protections:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2017/02/22/oklahoma-attorney-generals-office-releases-7500-pages-of-emails-between-scott-pruitt-and-fossil-fuel-industry/?utm_term=.57ae40681870
His calendar indicates where his time and attention are... packed schedule with execs of major polluting companies, very few with environmentalists. Their defense? “As E.P.A. has been the poster child for regulatory overreach, the agency is now meeting with those ignored by the Obama administration,” an emailed statement from the agency said:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/03/us/politics/epa-scott-pruitt-calendar-industries-coal-oil-environmentalists.html
And how is Oklahoma water quality by the way? (which, to be fair, can be affected by more than the decisions that Pruitt made when he was in charge of it):
24/7 Wall St. reviewed the number of water quality violations the Environmental Protection Agency issued to each public water system in the United States and its territories from September 30, 1980 to July 3, 2017 with data from the EPA’s Safe Drinking Water Information System. https://247wallst.com/special-report/2017/08/29/counties-with-the-most-contaminated-water/
Oklahoma has 8 of the 23 counties in USA that have 50+ violations.
So yep.... let's put him in charge of water quality final decisions across America? Oh, there's also the current corruption/bribery scandals.
#MAGA #draintheswamp
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Cragar
climber
MSLA - MT
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Ha!
Where my family lives they love that he pisses off the liberals!
Oh, and they are hella christian too.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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oh no, don't go jerking the pud again
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brotherbbock
climber
So-Cal
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2018 - 12:10pm PT
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I miss Pud and his solid evidence.
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couchmaster
climber
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To Pud and Jody, guys, with all due respect what happens if you are wrong?
Like a lot of ST climbers: I look at the glaciers I climbed in my youth and can see shrinkage, and if I look at early climbing climbing photography shots much much more, shockingly so.
Now, the discord is how much of the warming is man-made. Experiments in the 1800s demonstrated this greenhouse effect folks are discussing. It's not a new idea that Al Gore invented. It's been demonstrated over and over. Only in the 50s did we really ramp up industry enough that it started to be significant.
In the most recent case of the EPA chief rejecting increased CAFE standards, it seems to be the case that even if you had looked at all the clear evidence for man-made cause and said: "hey, it's not 100% clear to me that any of this obvious warming is man made". So we shouldn't do anything. Nothing. Suppose you are wrong? Do you think we can go back and stuff the genie back in the bottle? That we will be able to suck that co2 back out of the oceans or dump in enough baking soda to neutralize the acidification that we are seeing with our own eyes? We're seeing unprecedented huge Oyster spat dies offs that were finally diagnosed as increased acidity in the ocean water. Places where Oyster grew naturally for thousands of recorded years (natives ate them and toss the shells in piles) will no longer successfully breed in those locations. We may get lucky and have an asteroid hit us or a huge volcano erupt and all be happy that we have greenhouse effects, but why base your policy on such far out unlikely hopes and watch species die off due to it?
Aren't you left asking "what if I'm wrong?" When I ask myself that question, all I get is something to the effect of, well, we have reduced the pollution in the atmosphere but it's still getting warm. Clearly the ice age ended and we are in a long term warming trend, but we'll be breathing easier if say Ed or I am wrong about this. We should at least to the easy stuff to reign it in, and easy is increasing the CAFE standards. Which we were going to do until the EPA chief woke up on the wrong side of the bed or something similar.
My best to you both.
ps, always sad to see idiots like the shithead who posted above me doesn't have the brains to approach the question with facts and so is reduced to personal attacks. Perhaps we can try to ignore the child? SomebodyAnybody too chickenshit to use his real name quote:"Ah yes, the 50 something uneducated motorhead, along with his buddy, the 50 something uneducated retired pig, and their other buddy the 70 something glorified plumber, moaning about "fake scientists" to a group of people consisting largely of career scientists with graduate degrees.
Who knew that eating donuts on your ass in a patrol car, playing toughguy on the internet, and making racist cracks between changing out water flanges instilled such an impressive depth of understanding of the scientific method and data analysis?
Maybe we can get that 50 something retired swabbie midget back up in here to go on one of his napolean complex rants with random capitalization of people's first names. Whatdya say CHEF? "
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labrat
Trad climber
Erik O. Auburn, CA
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Hear hear couchmaster!
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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wasting your time, couch.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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They want transparency? WTF, maybe they could start by letting the public know what chemicals are contained in fracking water, since we have to drink that stuff.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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It's nice they play their treason out live and in the media.
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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Heidi & I were trading High-5's last night, after she mentioned that Trump's oceanside resorts & especially Mir a Lago would soon be victims of his stupidity.
Yes, because the global warming all began on Jan 20, 2017 and flying a big old jet airliner all over the place for mountain recreation and stories about places and peaks can't even name got nothing to do with, right?
treason traitors
Oh my!
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Here's Esquire today with a heavy dose of coverage for the egregious ethics violations of Pruitt, and a humorous swipe at Fox for actually asking the tough questions:
https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a19690828/fox-news-scott-pruitt-swamp/
It should be somewhat obvious though that Fox is just a tool to bring down Pruitt so that Trump doesn't have to take another ding for firing someone and publicly acknowledging he made a mistake, when he is already on thin ice.
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