Discussion Topic |
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 25, 2017 - 01:27pm PT
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Areas that are unique in some respect and get people around the world to pony up for an international flight.
I say there are four.
Yosemite.....the Mecca for rock climbers worldwide.
The Alaska Range....great alpine climbing only a stones throw from where the bush pilot puts you.
Indian Creek....best place in this planet to learn/perfect crack climbing.
The Red River Gorge....only sport climbing area in the states a self respecting European would spend bucks to get to.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 25, 2017 - 01:42pm PT
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Ouray for ice climbing? with the San Juans nearby?
what is "world class" ice climbing, anyway?
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO & Bend, OR
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Feb 25, 2017 - 01:46pm PT
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Jim: How about Grand Tetons and Red Rocks, Las Vegas?
Do foreign climbers visit these areas with regularity? I suspect so.
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Ezra Ellis
Trad climber
North wet, and Da souf
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Feb 25, 2017 - 01:52pm PT
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City of rocks
Cochise stronghold
New river gorge
Incredible Hulk??
Whitney?
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Killer K
Boulder climber
Sacramento, CA
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Feb 25, 2017 - 01:54pm PT
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Smith, Rifle, Jailhouse, bishop, tahoe bring people from all over the world.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Feb 25, 2017 - 02:22pm PT
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Hueco Tanks
...and although widely debated- JTree. Nowhere like it!
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toyon
climber
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Feb 25, 2017 - 02:48pm PT
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Sustained good weather is an essential criteria, whatever else goes into the definition. Basically the same as asking 'If climbing was your end all and be all, where would you move?' Tends to whittle down the list of 'world class' because actual climbing days get factored in.
Hence any Mediterranean climate, or moist desert a la JTree.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Feb 25, 2017 - 02:49pm PT
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The environment counts as much as the moves. A mediocre route in a great location is still pretty good. A good route in a great location is a great route.
Besides Alaska where is your favorite alpine area Jim?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Feb 25, 2017 - 03:56pm PT
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Here's a question for all who would say this or that climbing area in the USA is world class: How many places in the rest of the world have you climbed?
If you say, for example, that the Red River Gorge is a world-class climbing area, what are you comparing it to? Is it better than Verdon? Better than El Chorro? Better than...
Same for, say, Ouray as a world-class ice climbing area. Is it in the same league as what is available in the Canadian Rockies?
None of which is meant to say there are no world-class climbing venues in the US, just that it's easy to get carried away with rating our own favorite places as more than they really are.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Feb 25, 2017 - 04:09pm PT
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It is probably hard to beat the Cdn Rockies for accessible ice. Huge choice and quality with a many routes within 1 hour of the car. I haven't been to Ouray but can say that many people fly from Europe to hit the ice in Alberta. Big Drip in the Ghost is considered to be one of the best mixed routes anywhere.
I have climbed in the Verdon and I would say the good rock routes in the Ghost River are on par
Josh is maybe the best landscape of all. Who described it as 2 star routes in a five star setting?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 25, 2017 - 04:10pm PT
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the implicit definition is a place that foreign climbers pay to go to...
I have no problems with Jim's list, as I've interacted with foreign climbing visitors who specifically chose to travel to those destinations at all of them... I can't remember if it was true at Ouray or not...
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Feb 25, 2017 - 04:14pm PT
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For me, the backdrop and scenery matters as much as the climbing itself. My wife was born and raised in Italy, grew up taking the school bus to go skiing after school in the Alps and as a young adult spent weekends in Dolomites, Val di Mello, and places like that. She paid to come to USA to spend a month climbing and exploring Utah.
She would not have done the same for the Sierra Nevada because it is too similar to what she grew up around, and in many cases she finds the Sierra Nevada not very dramatic because of the Alps as a frame of reference. But the red stone of Utah is like another planet.
And so what piques people's interest is as much a function of what they are familiar with and what they consider exotic as much as anything else. Why buy a plane ticket to travel around the world to be in a place just like your back yard?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Feb 25, 2017 - 04:21pm PT
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Why buy a plane ticket to travel around the world to be in a place just like your back yard?
I dunno. Ask the two Swiss guys who spent a month at The Needles in the summer of 2012. They ticked the place and went on their way...
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Feb 25, 2017 - 04:22pm PT
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Vedauwoo!
Arguably, some others....
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Feb 25, 2017 - 04:43pm PT
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Yosemite
Tetons
Tucson (greater area including Cochise)
Moab (greater area)
Boulder (greater area)
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Feb 25, 2017 - 04:52pm PT
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I've been around, not as much as Jim, but his list is fair. I would add the Red Rocks to it
cause I like long routes and rest day debauchery. Nowhere compares with Norway for ice.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Feb 25, 2017 - 04:54pm PT
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Besides what's already up...
Winds
Granite Mt.
Squamish
Devils Tower
And, I love basalt ...The Forks
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Feb 25, 2017 - 05:36pm PT
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Red Rocks.
St. George area has what I'd call world class climbing...and, its in the venerable "west". Plus, you'd get to gawk at Zion(s). Cathedral, VRG, etc... Butch Cassidy country. Maybe the Bundy's could do a cattle drive as a bonus (ha ha).
I'd think New River Gorge would be up there, especially if a road trip involved Seneca and a few other areas. Easy combo with a tour of D.C.
North Carolina (Stone, Looking Glass, Rumbling Bald, Linville Gorge. Take in some bar-b-que and local moonshine and you have a great trip.
Acadia.
Devil's Tower and the Black Hills. Plenty of history there too. Buff'ler.
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seano
Mountain climber
none
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Feb 25, 2017 - 05:36pm PT
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Squamish Did we invade Canadia while I wasn't paying attention? 54.40 or fight!
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fgw
climber
portland, or
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Feb 25, 2017 - 05:49pm PT
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What areas in the lower 48 would be worth an overseas trip if I lived elsewhere? Uniqueness & multi pitch climbing are my personal key criteria.
Yosemite Valley (not Tuolumne)
Greater Moab Area (towers & IC)
Sierras (incl. Needles)
Red Rocks
Devils Tower
The Diamond
2nd Tier:
Zion
Black Canyon (never been but looks big & unique)
Cochise
Cirque of Towers
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WyoRockMan
climber
Grizzlyville, WY
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Feb 25, 2017 - 05:50pm PT
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I'd put Hyalite and Cody above Ouray for an ice destination.
If the Canadian Rockies didn't exist, Hyalite would for sure be world class.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Feb 25, 2017 - 05:53pm PT
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Hyalite by day and Ted's at night!
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Feb 25, 2017 - 06:26pm PT
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If the qualification is which areas would many Europeans with good climbing in their back yard come to, here's what I'd list:
Alaska
Yosemite
Maybe Bishop
Smith at one point, maybe not anymore
Moab area (maybe Zion too)
Hueco (though restrictions have made it less good than 25 years ago)
Red River
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flatlandermcjack
Trad climber
Speardawg, SD
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Feb 25, 2017 - 06:29pm PT
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+1 wyorockman Ouray aint even close to either cody or hyalite!!!
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Feb 25, 2017 - 06:36pm PT
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WTF. Is this a popularity contest?
Avoid the crowds of Prima Donna's. For a world class personal experience try something new off the beaten path.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Feb 25, 2017 - 07:46pm PT
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Maybe Gunks?
I'm not really qualified to say what is world class, but I don't think I've seen better trad cragging in the US, and it's got awesome bouldering as a perk.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 25, 2017 - 08:07pm PT
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If it's in your heart its world class
If it's only in your head it ain't .......
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Feb 25, 2017 - 08:52pm PT
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Black Canyon
Bugaboos (USA backyard)
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Inner City
Trad climber
Portland, OR
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Feb 25, 2017 - 09:35pm PT
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A whole bunch of these areas are so great that to not be 'world class' does not diminish them.
Red Rocks is an obvious addition. That development proposal is scary.
So many cool areas. I like Castle Crags CA, Courtright Reservoir is great, Lovers...so many awesome spots...Winds, Tets are up there too.
Are there this many interesting climbing areas in Europe? It seems unlikely beyond the splendid Alps Alpine Climbing.
I was thinking that the dream of a euro-climber is to do some Western States climbing road trip..right?
Personal Fav. Tuolumne of course!
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Feb 25, 2017 - 10:05pm PT
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the question shoulda been, is there any worldclass climbing outside of Cali...
;)'
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Dan McDevitt
Trad climber
yosemite
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Feb 25, 2017 - 10:12pm PT
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Shuteye
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JimT
climber
Munich
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Feb 26, 2017 - 12:37am PT
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As a Euro who goes to the US occasionally I´d say the criteria has to be is it different? Deserts are hard to find over here so places like Cochise are worth travelling to, the Gunks isn´t. JTree was a nice place but the climbing indifferent, Red Rocks is definately a destination for the sheer number of good, easy routes on rock we don´t have.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Feb 26, 2017 - 06:42am PT
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this is a list based on places i've seen/heard of people regularly being willing to book an overseas flight to climb solely at [ie. this is not based on what should or could be a world class area nor does it include places that are global destinations due to being visited in conjunction with other areas. rather it is limited to those places that are regularly the only reason someone books that flight.] basically places that if you goto during the climbing season you are almost certainly going to have a euro, or a an aussie or etc party who booked a flight primarily to be at that venue and did not just tack it onto a larger u.s. or north american trip.
and i'm widening the scope to north america...
u.s:
alaska range mountaineering
indian creek trad climbing
red rocks sport climbing
yosemite wall climbing
canada:
baffin wall climbing
bugaboos climbing
cirque of the unclimbables climbing
rockies ice climbing
rogers pass ski touring/mountaineering
mexico:
portrero chico sport climbing
there are a few places that definitely were world class in the past but i'm not sure they still meet the fuzzy bar i've set [smith sport climbing and hueco tanks bouldering come to mind]. there are a few places that are likely on the verge of being or are on that list but i haven't visited recently or ever and so i am not sure whether or not they are the sole regular drivers to those overseas booking a flight [bishop bouldering and red river gorge sport climbing are a couple of those] and finally there are those areas that are, ime, world class in terms of setting and quality of climbing but as far as i know haven't drawn people in regular and sufficient numbers to meet the imaginary bar i've set just yet [the ghost climbing and cochise stronghold climbing are two of those].
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Feb 26, 2017 - 06:43am PT
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A lot of folks come from other countries to climb Lac Willoughby Ourey is pretty much just an outdoor climbing gym. I would however not be supprised if Bridalveil falls was a goal worth traveling for?
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rincon
climber
Coarsegold
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Feb 26, 2017 - 07:41am PT
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Stoney Point!!!!!!!!!
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Feb 26, 2017 - 08:32am PT
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Tollhouse
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David Knopp
Trad climber
CA
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Feb 26, 2017 - 10:34am PT
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Pinnacles baby!!!
Run out, choosy, high historical value.
What's not to love. And over 1000 routes-ask mtn. young, he probably put up 1/2 of em.
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Inner City
Trad climber
Portland, OR
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Feb 26, 2017 - 10:59am PT
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...blissful ignorance...
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Feb 26, 2017 - 11:05am PT
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Omg this went downhill fast.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Feb 26, 2017 - 12:47pm PT
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North Cascades is world class but too burly for dainty Californians.
I hope it remains that way.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 26, 2017 - 12:51pm PT
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Lots of great climbing areas being offered up.....BUT they don't meet the criteria I proposed. They need to have a uniqueness, reputation or quality that draws people from different continents. The Needles, City of Rocks, Elephants Perch, Gunks and others are what I would call national class in that they draw people from all over the states..
Red Rocks might qualify as some foreign climbers have posted on this thread.
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ecdh
climber
the east
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Feb 26, 2017 - 01:47pm PT
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Hyalite
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slabbo
Trad climber
colo south
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Feb 26, 2017 - 02:31pm PT
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Gotta add Needles (CA) IMO,, just so good..The Gunks was but has faded..kinda like Hueco
Maybe the Boulder area, if you include RMNP..but that's like Bishop if you add the Sierra's
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Feb 26, 2017 - 03:14pm PT
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What Donini wrote just upthread is exactly right. Which brings up an important qualifier: our impressions of what is or is not "world class" mutates over time. For example, if this question were posed to the group in 1985, Joshua Tree would easily make almost everyone's list. It was the premier world crossroads for winter rock climbing. Everybody who was anybody came through, and everybody who was nobody was there as well.
But Werner really nails it:
If it's in your heart its world class
If it's only in your head it ain't ......
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steve s
Trad climber
eldo
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Feb 26, 2017 - 03:26pm PT
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Like BVB states what's world class changes with time. Back in the 80's lots of euro,s would make the pilgrimage to Eldo....But not anymore more. Eldo, Yosemite, Jtree, and the Gunks were the top four back then. Yosemite will always make the list.
If yer gonna put Jail House rock out there might as put Devil,s Lake , Wisconsin on the list !
Cheers
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Feb 26, 2017 - 04:00pm PT
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Smith Rocks, 1987, hosted the top climbers from around the globe. It was "world class" by every definition of the term. That is no longer the case.
On the other hand, in the lower 48, Yosemite will always be, and always has been, *the* must-tick world class crag for everyone who owns a rack and a rope. For pure rock climbing, Yosemite is probably alone in a standard that wildly exceeds mere "world class." I think every other crag mentioned in this thread may trend up or down in favor, subject to the dictates of time and trends and taste, but Yosemite is, well, it's the f*#king Valley.
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trailridge127
Trad climber
Loveland, CO
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Feb 26, 2017 - 04:17pm PT
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Rocky Mountain National Park(including lumpy)
The Diamond is not really an area. RMNP is probably world class with much help from the diamond, but great climbing else where in the range.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Feb 26, 2017 - 04:23pm PT
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ah, devil's lake, wisconsin
many a euro has been spat out there
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Feb 26, 2017 - 05:43pm PT
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Big Rock
Oh hell yeah!
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Feb 26, 2017 - 06:14pm PT
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Assuming Jim means only purchase 1 international flight ticket to reach 1 area, then there are very few areas indeed.
Yosemite
Smith Rocks
Donner Summit (could have been in the late 80s early 90s)
American Fork (could have been in the late 80s early 90s)
RRG (perhaps is today's AF)
Red Rocks
Bishop, for sure
Hueco
BC for ice
Zion
and fricking Pinnacles!!!
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timy
Sport climber
Durango
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Feb 26, 2017 - 06:22pm PT
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jeez, I gotta disagree about Indian Creek. Super soft slippery rock that barely holds pro. Thuggish, painful climbing, drab landscape, buncha idiots from Boulder and everywhere else. Dirty. Shitty camp hole. Seems like a bandwagon. Almost anywhere else is preferable.
Ouray rock climbing is getting to be world class.
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steve s
Trad climber
eldo
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Feb 26, 2017 - 06:30pm PT
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Ouray is world class ? Better than Jailhouse? Or Eldo ?
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
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Feb 26, 2017 - 07:21pm PT
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How many worthless climbing areas in the USA?
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Feb 26, 2017 - 08:24pm PT
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I haven't seen Eldorado Canyon pop up once. I know for a fact
that internationals travel here to climb . . .
My .02
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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Feb 26, 2017 - 08:45pm PT
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Ouray rock climbing is getting to be world class.
Perhaps Ouray and environs . . . Ophir wall is our Eldorado, but the rock is very different. The Falls wall area also contributes to making Ouray a potential WC destination.
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kpinwalla2
Social climber
WA
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Feb 27, 2017 - 07:54am PT
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When Europeans come here to climb seems they're often looking for great climbing in a unique landscape. Interestingly, two places on my list, RRG and Smith, didn't "take off" as climbing destinations until "European-style" rap-bolting tactics were employed in the 1990s. I started climbing in the 1970s (pre-bolt)in the RRG and many of us thought of it as just our local crag that was hopefully prepping us for the "real thing" out west. I remember the first time I heard a west coast climber say he was traveling back east to climb at "the Red" (what we always called "the gorge") - blew me away.
Yosemite
Smith Rock
City of Rocks
Red River Gorge
Joshua Tree
Desert Towers/Indian Creek
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newport
Sport climber
UK
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Feb 27, 2017 - 08:13am PT
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I think I would distinguish between worth a visit and world class. Out of all the places I've climbed (40+ years, 30+ countries) the standout destination for me is around Moab. I agree that Indian Creek is amazing, but to climb the same splitters on some of the desert towers in Canyonlands, Castle Valley etc. is even better. Not forgetting the Fisher Towers! As others have mentioned, you can't separate the moves from the whole experience of being where the climbs are situated.
I thought we had some world class climbing (such as Pembroke) here in the UK, but it seems we don't meet some peoples' weather criteria!
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Feb 27, 2017 - 08:40am PT
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World class -
Grit
North Wales
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slabbo
Trad climber
colo south
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Feb 27, 2017 - 03:24pm PT
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Grit would be except for the USA part ?
Gunks for sure was, but Skytop isn't legal anymore,,,and tha'ts the best crag there.
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