When Feminism Goes Too Far - Climbing Article

"The reality is that we’ve forgotten, in our politically correct culture, that men and women are sometimes rude to one another."

Tami: Learn to speed-read!!!

Feminists want so badly to believe that their bodies and their brains aren't fundamentally built to bear and care for children.

If women are approaching climbing with the goal of outperforming men, they're missing out on a lot of good stuff

Shelma Jun is the founder of female/climbing-empowerment website Flash Foxy, as well as the Flash Foxy Women’s Climbing Festival. She’s been a huge force for female empowerment in climbing, and one of the reasons that we women have it so great in climbing today.

I'm saying a woman's physiology and mindset makes it more challenging for her to compete with a male climber.

For starters I enjoy when cat and warbler discuss men/women climbing issues, immensely.

I don't agree that are 'basically no men' who would do that, particularly if we substitute 'the most' with 'a'.

I'm gonna guess the male climber death rate is ten times the female. It would be interesting to know.

Climbing history is full of epic tales of death and near death in the mountains, and nearly all the players in those epics are males.

It's unfortunate that the mental fortitude and commitment it takes to do serious leads is not respected as a hard earned skill by many modern gymbred climbers.

I agree with all that stuff cat. It's your sister shelma that is putting the spotlight on competition

I hear what you're saying about rock climbing being a contrived activity serving no real purpose for survival...

I was chasin' sun on 101
somewhere around Ventura
I lost a universal joint and I had to use my finger
This tall lady stopped and asked
If I had plans for dinner
Said no thanks ma'am, back home
we like the girls that sing soprano

Cause where I come from
It's cornbread and chicken
Where I come from a lotta front porch sittin'
Where I come from tryin' to make a livin'
And workin' hard to get to heaven
Where I come from

I like the fact no amount of money can buy your way up a route on lead - it's an ideal equalizer.

healyje:

... any given motivated woman can completely smoke your ass. I personally just don't see or consider 'gender' as a gender or any other class doesn't tie into a rope, a solitary human does and - male or female, young or old - that's all I see, look at, and care about, the rest is irrelevant to me.

Plastic pulling? Utterly boring and would not watch it let alone attend.

Hardcore Feminists want to impose their perspectives and standards on their fellow men and women,

Pushing the limits of climbing is an ongoing positive progression with no downside...

This left coast centric forum doesn't represent

They feel things more strongly and acutely .. it's one of the things that makes a woman irresistibly attractive.

If feminism is anything, it is the work of untangling these biases, recognizing the merits of everyone in an unbiased way, and providing equal opportunities to all.

recognizing the merits of everyone in an unbiased way, and providing equal opportunities to all.

The word babe for instance. I see it as a term of affection, or as a description of a beautiful woman, feminists see it as a belittling, sexually suggestive term. So we disagree. Which interpretation is more positive and loving, and which is more negative and combative? Hardcore Feminists want to impose their perspectives and standards on men and their fellow women, a effort that denies equal rights.

the potential for death should be there.

But if I use the name women have taken for themselves, and refer to them accordingly, as in Yo Babes, in historical context even, I'm now being sexist or somehow naïvely or intentionally supporting sexism?

do guys just make themselves a doormat to any fanatical ruling coming their way for the next 100 years in the interest of setting things straight for all? I can't see that working.

This isn't to say that issues like gender and race relations don't still have some ways to go toward resolution.
Her [Davita's] point is: don't be petty and choose your battles. This doesn't weaken the cause, it strengthens it.

do guys just make themselves a doormat to any fanatical ruling coming their way for the next 100 years in the interest of setting things straight for all? I can't see that working.

Namely: do guys just make themselves a doormat to any fanatical ruling coming their way for the next 100 years in the interest of setting things straight for all? I can't see that working.

And Norway is a rather different place than the USA, having had several female prime ministers, and with about half of all elected officials women for some time.

Her [Davita's] point is: don't be petty and choose your battles. This doesn't weaken the cause, it strengthens it.

the particular relationship between the individuals involved

When was the last time you heard a man complain about sexist treatment?

but there are societal biases against men that are well entrenched in our society and sexist by the dictionary definition of the word. I never hear feminists acknowledge that

I'm sure you didn't mean it this way, but I've heard that statement many times in regard to giving men sex and getting something in return. My generation of feminists said no thanks, we'll work 2 or 3 times harder than a man to get to the same place. The next generation said, why should we have to?

The third generation is saying we don't even want to hear mention of it.

The crazy thing is is that feminists love to be objectified in just the right circumstances with just the right person.

Maybe the woman you think is overly sensitive has had such an experience. It might be worth keeping in mind before getting upset at her for being overly sensitive.

The sexism towards men in our society that I experience has nothing to do with abortion or parental leave. Those are issues that indirectly affect women, and as such, are an understsndable topic amongst your feminist friends. What about the draft? What about false accusations of sexual assault or harassment? What about restraining orders against men requested by women? What about the difference in courtesy shown to men at many places of business? What about unequal societal expectations of income, alimony in divorce, and obligations in dating?

The extension of her findings doesn't reach beyond those boundaries. She speaks about the fringe, as you alluded. And she's hoping it stays there (and flattens out). It's less an overarching critique on the current state of feminism in total.

What about this alternative to the "climbing is totally sexist and racist to boot"/"sexism and racism in climbing is totally made up" debate:
Climbing itself is very open and welcoming and, in 2017 at least, is not particularly sexist or racist, but in society at large there still exist many pressures and implicit restrictions on women and minorities that might make them less likely to participate in activities such as climbing. Societal expectation might keep some people away from climbing, but climbing itself isn't sexist.

(Facts and emotions are a tangle, not so independent)

what kind of red meat do we need to toss up

While the womenfolk were tending children and keeping house or cave, if you will.

"My mother explained this to me when I was in kindergarten or so.. she explained that women are different beings than men , that is women are more intelligent, more aware, and they have a full chromosome to carry those better traits. She explained that men lack a whole leg of the chromosome, so they cannot even tell when they are wrong or short sighted. She also explained that because of this women are the weavers of the fabric of society, arts and letters, diplomacy , social economics , health and welfare, education etc. Therefore men , being expendable, are hunters and warriors, because it doesn't make any great difference if they die in the process. Let that woolly mammoth take down a couple men because there will always be another one at the ready. Women will see to that in the raising of the children successfully, keeping the fabric of society intact. Men are welcome to be invited in because they are pleasing or worthy, and just as easily ushered out. Like buses, there's one by every few minutes. She explained to me that men will thump chests and expound on the inferiority of women because they lack that leg of the chromosome that gives them some perspective. So just let them have at it as they really are simply entertaining themselves since they don't have much else of any real importance to do. She said men will always compete, because they are not able to understand otherwise. She advised me to know my own legacy.

True story. Thank you, Mom.

Feb 14 Anniversary of Meltdown 5/14c Hardest valley trad climb until the Dawn Wall went free. Thank you Beth Rodden

ST has become so silly I hardly ever look at it anymore. Enjoy my post as I'm not likely to respond further. Cheers Y'all."

I understand the difference between men and women, what I don't understand are claims that feminist climbers make that women are equal in climbing performance to men across the climbing spectrum.

I'm getting really tired of being reminded that my friend Lynn did the FFA of The Nose when these feminist climbers try to prove that women are equal to or better than men when climbing at the uppermost levels. Lynn admits herself her small fingers and body size are advantageous on the cruxes of The Nose. It was still an amazing feat and one of the milestones in the evolution of freeclimbing. However, virtually every other milestone in the evolution of freeclimbing has been accomplished by males. That makes Lynn's ascent, however outstanding, an anomaly.

Lucky Pink: "My mother explained this to me when I was in kindergarten or so.. she explained that women are different beings than men , that is women are more intelligent, more aware, and they have a full chromosome to carry those better traits. She explained that men lack a whole leg of the chromosome, so they cannot even tell when they are wrong or short sighted. She also explained that because of this women are the weavers of the fabric of society, arts and letters, diplomacy , social economics , health and welfare, education etc. Therefore men , being expendable, are hunters and warriors, because it doesn't make any great difference if they die in the process. Let that woolly mammoth take down a couple men because there will always be another one at the ready. Women will see to that in the raising of the children successfully, keeping the fabric of society intact. Men are welcome to be invited in because they are pleasing or worthy, and just as easily ushered out. Like buses, there's one by every few minutes. She explained to me that men will thump chests and expound on the inferiority of women because they lack that leg of the chromosome that gives them some perspective. So just let them have at it as they really are simply entertaining themselves since they don't have much else of any real importance to do. She said men will always compete, because they are not able to understand otherwise. She advised me to know my own legacy.

So they evolved with a higher percentage of their time and energy spent hunting, gathering, and risk taking (climbing)(PLAYING).

While the womenfolk were tending children and keeping house or cave, if you will.(WORKING)

When women climb at the level of the best men across the spectrum, I will happily admit that I was wrong.

Out of all the guides reviewed here, Advanced Rock Climbing offers the most representation for female climbers. In the text, women and men are represented almost equally, with 72 photos depicting climbers who appear to be women and 73 photos showing climbers who appear to be men.

Yet the majority of the personal story sections (35 out of 41) are written by men. With only 15 photographs of women and 148 of men, Training for New Alpinism has the lowest woman-to-man ratio of all the books in this review.

Including a variety of people in how-to-climb guides will not only offer a more accurate representation of the climbing population, but will also provide readers with a wider range of perspectives and experiences.

Mei: I read the books to seek knowledge; I don't read the books to seek gender validation. 

What I really can't understand is how you, BigBlue, feel "punished" as a woman if you go on a bold adventure. This sounds to me like imagined victimization with an implied finger pointed at men as the culprits.

What I am saying is that society expects women not to be bold, and this expectation is drilled into us from the day we’re born.

women are biologically not as "bold" as men. Society doesn't "expect" it - rather, society exists because of it. Do young women take up arms and face death and disfigurement in battle against other women? As men have done, and still do, for all of history?

Serious alpine climbing has some of the same dynamics as battle.

Testosterone has been proven over and over to encourage aggressive and risk taking behavior

After years of accusing men of limiting female potential through sexism and misogyny, and being accused themselves of sexism and misandry, hard core feminists now feign fairness by also blaming their fellow (unenlightened) women for the insurmountable differences btw the sexes

GreatGooglyMoogly

So why are there so many sport climbing women of note, and so few alpine climbing women of note?
Because there are less photos of women alpine climbers?
What are examples of societal constraints that govern one but not the other?

35 years ago, I and 2 friends of mine (all 3 engineers) taught ourselves almost everything, with no mentors, no guiding, no videos, no internet, no cell phones, no superlight gear, Just some magazines, and slowly bought enough gear like first generation cams, straight shaft axes, heavy boots, guidebooks from roper, wilts, & wolfe.

Splater, your personal experience doesn’t disprove that we all participate in a larger system. It also doesn’t change the fact that most alpinists came up through a mentorship environment dominated by men.

Is it a "fact" that most alpinists were mentored rather than self-taught? Is it actually harder for an inexperienced woman to find a mentor than it is for an inexperienced man? Is it even true that females are underrepresented to a greater degree in alpine climbing compared to sport climbing? If any research has been posted on any of these subjects, I missed it.

I ain't buying the photo excuse

"My first response was like...'No no no no, I'm an O.G. feminist, man! I was raised by a single mother in the '70s,'" he said. "She had a shirt that said 'A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.' I felt like sh#t in my own house for being me."

"There are things in it that are untrue, that are...an implication of true piggishness that I felt was untrue," Stewart added.

He went back to the writers' room to rail about the article and realized, looking around the room, that it was right. Stewart thought his show was ahead of the game because it took blind submissions, but the submissions came from agents – who tended to be biased toward white men from Ivy League schools.

"To change that system takes actual effort," Stewart said. Once he got past his defensiveness to examine the criticism, he tried to do better.

It’s a fact that alpinism is hard for anyone to get into, much harder than sport climbing. It’s also a fact that it’s harder for women to get into than men.

An adventure with a guide falls short of a true adventure for the guided

I have noticed that male climbers are often eager to mentor young female climbers.

Falling on your ass bouldering is more common than falling on your neck

So now, men who mentor women climbers must prove that their goals are not to impress them, but to fulfill their obligation to foster equality in numbers and performance among female climbers in general.

”F*ck off, eat sh*t, and die! You've got to be kidding me!" That's a quote.

"I’ve been somewhat confused and disappointed by the recent spate of articles and online commentaries that suggest that women climbers are being held back by a community that is slow to accept their presence. All of which has been launched under the guise of “feminism