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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 15, 2017 - 11:35am PT
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I recently bought a copy of Anthony Greebank's Introduction to Rock Climbing published in 1963 and was surprised to find that he was describing the "modern" rappel technique at that time as a single carabiner attached to a seat sling with the rope passing directly up and over the shoulder and around the back.
Mechanical brakes using brake bars were used in WWII and it made me wonder when the one-on-two and two-on-two carabiner brake systems in common use later in the sixties were broadly introduced. Those of you here on the forum who were actively climbing in the early 1960s, when and how did you learn to use a brake bar and then a carabiner brake system?
I recall seeing carabiner brake systems in the Chouinard catalogs by the late 1960s even though Yvon's modified "D" carabiner was less than ideal for that particular application.
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TLP
climber
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Jan 15, 2017 - 12:50pm PT
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FossilClimber must know about this. They did a lot of rappelling off the Nose, and though it seems to me I have seen a photo of Harding with a leather shoulder patch, you'd think somebody, like Dolt at least, might have thought there needed to be a better mousetrap. I don't know myself, started in 1967 and both the biner-biners and biner-brakebar options were established at that time.
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PhilG
Trad climber
The Circuit, Tonasket WA
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Jan 15, 2017 - 02:06pm PT
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Good question Steve.
To the best of my recollection, when I took a "basic rock climbing" course offered by the Sierra Club (early 60's), they only taught the good ole body rappel. We didn't do a whole lot of rappelling at Tahquitz or Big Rock in those days.
By the time I got to the Valley (1967) carabiner brake bar was the only way we rappelled.
I would look in the early mountain rescue and/or early caving literature for your answer.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 15, 2017 - 02:25pm PT
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I started climbing in 1970 so I have little relevant background here. My suspicion is that the use of carabiner brakes somewhat coincided with the introduction of tied webbing swami belts with integral leg loops and the increasing popularity of ever steeper climbs and descent routes. Some interesting history here I suspect since a whole generation came back from the various wars having used military issue brake bars and walked away from the leather era methods of the 1950s.
It seems that cavers were usually in front of climbers technically out of necessity so it would be interesting to see if there is a crossover here as Phil suggests. Doing a tandem rappel in a rescue situation on a brakebar would be way out of bounds so perhaps a rescue accident lead to this shift.
Werner- Ask John Dill if he knows anything about this evolution if you would.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 15, 2017 - 02:37pm PT
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I remember in the late 60s using a single piece of webbing that went around your butt and you pulled up through your crotch and was unattached to your swami and made a "perfect" seat. No problem with free rappel using three biners one with a locking gate. The fearful used a pusik attached to their swami. it all worked great. I didn't get a biner with a bar (which I still have) until much later.
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rmuir
Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
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Jan 15, 2017 - 02:42pm PT
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In 1967—in the SF Bay area—break-bars were widely used by rappellers. These guys had contraptions that used a gang of brake-bars in series for extra friction. Real climbers, though, carried a break bar to be used with an oval 'biner, specifically for rappelling, and these could be purchased from places like The Ski Hut in Berkeley, etc. The Sierra Club Rockclimbing Section required those of us taking the RCS course to regularly use a Dulfersitz rappel, including on overhanging rappels.
By 1969, at least, we were rapping with 'biner brakes using multiple 'biners exclusively, using a swami belt combined with a runner twisted into a figure-eight as leg loops. This was far easier that carrying a single-purpose brake bar on your rack.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jan 15, 2017 - 02:53pm PT
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Mechanical brakes using brake bars were used in WWII and it made me wonder when the one-on-two and two-on-two carabiner brake systems in common use later in the sixties were broadly introduced
My guess is that someone who had used a carabiner-plus-brake-bar system found himself without the bar one day. "Oh shit!. I left the brake bar in my pack. Now what?" And then, a lightbulb moment... "Hey, if I put this other carabiner cross-ways, it'll work just like the brake bar."
We always used six ovals. That put the rig in the right orientation, and a bit further off the harness, which seemed to be just the right spot.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 15, 2017 - 02:54pm PT
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Ask John Dill if he knows anything about this evolution
Steve just call him in his office if he's in there (he's probably there right now) .....
(two zero nine)-(three seven two)-(zero two one six)
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BooDawg
Social climber
Butterfly Town
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Jan 15, 2017 - 03:23pm PT
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Yes, Fossil Climber can probably shed some light on this. I remember watching him as Manager of the Yosemite Mountaineering school, instructing a basic class where he taught the 6-biner set-up. So he was certainly one of its early promoters. Royal's books and school as well. And yes, the RCS taught the dulfersitz during the earliest 1960's.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jan 15, 2017 - 03:36pm PT
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Mountaineering , Freedom of the Hills? The first edition was 1960.
Where did it first show up?
I learned the dulferstitz in 63 or '64. I remember seeing a brake bar in an rei catalog, which seemed extravagant at the time, as it required a dedicated piece of equipment. Good for only one purpose. Most ( but not all) climbers already had six 'biners....
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jan 15, 2017 - 04:27pm PT
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Whenever the change to brake systems came, it happened not all at once, it seems. Think about how there was a time lag on most new ideas back then, when there was no instant messaging, etc., and things published in monthly journals were the normal guides or instruments of change.
Word of the new-fangled did not spread like a virus then as now.
This will be a tough question to nail down, Steverino. It's not like Jumars, whose sales can be tracked by date.
As Jaybro says, everyone had carabiners already.
The combination of a over-the-shoulder system with a brake system is indicative, I think. The old could simply not be let go (no pun intended) until the new had proven itself to the older school.
It took some time, but it happened eventually.
Permutations of the system were around, too--brake bars from SMC being one. Like Jaybro, I never bothered with single brake bars--not because of distrust but simply from not needing the things.
Then again, we could just ask Fossil Climber. :0)
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steve s
Trad climber
eldo
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Jan 15, 2017 - 04:48pm PT
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I always thought carabiner brake rappel system were an offshoot from the brake bar system which came from cavers. But who knows?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 15, 2017 - 05:21pm PT
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"A carabiner brake rappel, how logical."
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Outside the Asylum
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Jan 15, 2017 - 05:32pm PT
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"Ropes, Knots and Slings for Climbers" (first edition 1960; revised edition, 1967, Walt Wheelock) says: "Although not true knots, the friction brakes are used in conjunction with the friction knots in rescue work, when it is necessary to lower a heavy load under complete control. The brakes are quite easily constructed from the drawings. The cross-bars may be either other carabiners, hammer handles (!), sticks (!!), or the special bars manufactured for this purpose. The single carabiner brake supplies a very limited amount of friction, and most of the load must be supplied by standard belays. The double carabiner brake supplies quite a large amount of friction, and it may be necessary to actually feed the line through the system to get the load to descend."
The diagram of a "single carabiner brake" shows a single oval, with a bight of rope through, and the handle of a hammer as the crosspiece.
The "double carabiner brake" diagram show two consecutive carabiners, each with a single cross brake bar.
It also has two diagrams of "diaper slings".
Perhaps carabiner brakes were first used in rescue applications?
Nothing relevant in "Belaying the Leader".
"Basic Rockcraft" (1971, Robbins) shows diaper slings, full carabiner brakes, etc etc.
Instructional books from Norway and Quebec from the early 1970s refer only to the classic Dulfersitz.
Around here in the early 1970s, the Dulfersitz was used by mountaineers, i.e. that's what most started with. We'd heard of carabiner brakes, but until we saw diagrams and had diaper seats (and enough carabiners) they were somewhat academic. I once saw a European climber descend a short vertical cliff by wrapping the rope once or twice around his wrist/lower arm, across his back, then around the other wrist. Looked rather exciting.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 15, 2017 - 05:58pm PT
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Good work Anders!
Not sure how widely read Wheelock's book was but the rescue aspect sure makes sense. That would have spread pretty quickly.
I was in new staff training with Colorado Outward Bound school when the instructor asked us what equipment was necessary to do a multi person litter lower. I asked if there were trees around and when he said "yes, I suppose" I answered "then none". Everyone looked at me quizzically until I walked over to a nearby tree and set up a Munter Hitch around it and said "the tree is going to get trashed but here you are".
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jan 15, 2017 - 06:10pm PT
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I don't know the answer to your original question, but doing a bit of digging turned up some pretty interesting photos mostly from a site called verticalarchaeology.com...
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TLP
climber
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Jan 15, 2017 - 06:30pm PT
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It is so fun to try to peer back into the murky past through smoke-filled haze... Some good bits here, but also a few I don't think are pertinent. As for the move to steeper climbs and descents affecting methods, I'm not so sure. Higher Spire was 1944, and it's a pretty steep rappel descent. Lower was climbed in the 30s. But definitely, methods the made sense in Britain wouldn't have been the best in Yosemite.
Seems to me we occasionally twisted a 1" sling into a figure 8 to make leg loops, or clipped a biner through it at both sides and between the legs to make a diaper sling, but usually just rapped on the swami. We (well, me personally) definitely did not own any locking biners in the 60s, and also never used 6 of them to rappel. At most 4: one for the slingage, two with gates opposed, and one for the brake bar. Six biners for each guy rappelling adds up to 12 plus any to clip in (hmmm, maybe didn't bother). That's more free biners than we usually (ever?) had. Jaybro nails it: we didn't buy those brake bars right off, it was a single purpose item and that made no sense then. Where do you put it? Every biner got used leading, there weren't spares to hold useless things like brake bars.
Were there really any rescues back then? I thought mostly you either topped out or someone cratered. Rescue was completely unthinkable.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 15, 2017 - 06:34pm PT
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Ghost- That is a US military issue steel brake bar from WWII used on a steel oval carabiner. I have one somewhere...Not sure what the "aluminum" version is all about. Spooky!
TLP- I think that sling arrangement was called a "Swiss seat".
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Jan 15, 2017 - 07:57pm PT
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In Boulder in 1963 we were using 6 carabiner brake bars. In that region I'm guessing they were pioneered by Layton Kor? Many people preferred the old goldline ropes for rappelling for the extra friction and because they wanted to spare their expensive new perlon ropes.
Some people like me got a belay when learning to rappel but I don't recall prusiks on a rappel rope. I was taught the old over the shoulder system and the dulfersitz mainly for use in an emergency (in case someone dropped all the gear) and for history's sake.
I can't remember when we used the first nylon slings for rappelling but I think it was after we had tied them into steps with knots for aid climbing. I'll have to check with some early climbers of that era but I think the aiders came first, then the swami and then the diaper sling.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jan 15, 2017 - 07:58pm PT
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When I started in 1957, it was the Dulfersitz, but the Swiss Seat and swami belts followed very soon after that. Swami belt adoption accelerated after Chouinard (belayed by Kamps) fell 150 feet on the North Face of the Crooked Thumb (Teewinot) in 1959. The Swiss seat method still burned your shoulder and/or neck---most climbers at the time had scars from it, and the iconic Holubar NP22 parka had a leather shoulder patch to protect against those burns.
Somewhere in the mid-sixties we started using carabiner brakes. I suspect the Chouinard catalog had something to do with popularizing them. Here, in a shot taken in the mid-sixties, Bob Williams is using a Swiss Seat, three cross-piece carabiners to supply enough friction for a single-strand rappel.
There's a lot more info (see especially posts Gary Storrick and Kerwin) at http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/482821/History-of-rappelling .
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slabbo
Trad climber
colo south
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Jan 16, 2017 - 06:48am PT
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Yikes ! Those brake bars always scared the crap out of me, it seemed like they always needed tension to stay put, though i have used a 1/2" pin instead.
Carabiner brake must have had a great impact 'cause I still use it since the 70's
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jan 16, 2017 - 07:54am PT
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Rich, I see Bob Williams also has a pair of husky-looking gloves to provide even greater friction and protect his palms!
Jaunty pair of knickers, too!
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Jan 16, 2017 - 08:34am PT
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1973.... on my second trip to the Valley... a wise old climber took away my Brake Bar and threw it in the trash. He showed me how easy it was for the gate of the one biner to snap off causing the complete failure of the rig.
So I learned how to do it with six ovals... to this day I try to make sure I have six ovals on the rack that can become a good way to rap.
Knowing how to do a body rap is also a good thing.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jan 16, 2017 - 09:08am PT
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Actually, I came to prefer D-shaped carabiners, at least for the body of the biner brake (it didn't matter what cross-pieces were). The reason was to have an additional friction adjustment: small ends forward gave more friction, large ends forward gave less friction.
The original set-up method involved pushing a bight through the body carabiners and then clipping the crossbar carabiners across underneath the bight. This was always awkward and seemed even more so when D-shaped carabiners were involved. Eventually we realized (duh!) there was a better way to set up the system that avoided all the awkwardness, as in
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Does anyone remember that the Chouinard catalog recommended that the two body carabiners be oriented with the gates on the same side rather than gates on opposite sides, so that the crossbar carabiner could just be pulled to disconnect the rappel? This always freaked me out and I never did it. I think one purpose was to avoid what most people I knew learned the hard way, that you can lose a pair of carabiners if you just pull the rope out of the system at the base of a rappel.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 16, 2017 - 09:35am PT
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Did this not too long ago. Forgot my harness somehow, but we went ahead and did a two-pitch .10b lead tied in to the end of the rope. Rapped on a biner brake (petzl spirits) while still tied in to the end of the rope. A little hassle and a somewhat dubious younger partner, but it went just fine.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jan 16, 2017 - 10:06am PT
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I am not sure that I like peering into the dark past when it is so muddled, which is to say, I can remember all of the above rappel methods, but I have no idea which I actually used on actual rappels or when.
In the mid-60s, I remember that I had a leather patch to protect my shoulder from goldline rope burn; but I also drove a 58 VW bus with sliding windows and wore baggy wool knickers, ala Gastlyrubberfat, and reveled in romanticized storybook climbing. That said, I think that we used six-biner brakes in Pinnacles in the mid to late-60s. Also Galen has a picture in "The Vertical World of Yosemite" of rappelling with a carabiner brake on the South Face of Half Dome when he and Warren were caught in a storm in October 1968--the first Yosemite big-wall rescue, I think.
I remember having a brake bar but all I can remember is I thought it as very dangerous since it sideloaded the gate of a single binner--as noted above. (I remember that I had a party trick in which I would open a carabiner and then push the gate sideways with my thumbs so that it passed the gate--Royal freaked out when I did that with one of his new, light weight biners: not that it said anything about the strength of the biner.)
At YMS and RockCraft we taught a six-carabiner brake with each pair reversed so that both gates could not open at the same time. (I was shocked at Chouinard's same orientation of the carabiner. I thought it was a serious lapse for Yvon given that most deaths had occurred with rapelling accidents.) The reversed 6-biner brakes are shown in detail in the 1974 3rd Edition of 'Mountaineering: the Freedom of the Hills."
In the early 70's, Royal promoted a figure-8 doohickey with a funny hook on the top for rappelling, along with Sticht-plates (I don't remember how we attached them to our diaper slings), the thick piece of aluminum with two slots for the rappel ropes, which I think we (his guides) thought was an unnecessary bit of additional gear. That said, the new, "D" shaped binners did not make for easy building of a six-binner brake--I keep old ovals to build rappels.
With regard to the question, I think that Beck or Erb, both of whom were active Valley climbers in the mid-sixties can say when they started using brakes.
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Tom Turrentine
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Jan 16, 2017 - 10:21am PT
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first rappelled at Boys Brigade summer camp in 1966 (14 years old) on a 3/4 inch manila line and dulfersitz- nearly crushed my balls.
next got pants with leather crotch and sewed patch to shoulder for goldline rappels in 1967 from telephone pole in front of home, (and tyrolian traverses between trees ) and any other wall I could find
-all how to information gathered from from photos in books (mostly in Alps)
took climbing lessons through a sports shop in Los Gatos from Bob Summers in 1969/70 (16 years old) and learn swami belt, with Swiss seat and 6 carabiner rappel on multi pitch in Yosemite
finally forest leg loops in 72??, full harness in late 80s??? also tried aluminum break bar and stitch plate in 1980s, figure 8 for a couple of years (but twisted rope)
began spending all money on gear and trips to valley, and preferred mostly multi-biner rappels for at least 15 years, using locking biners and extra cross biners for friction when working on walls
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Nick Danger
Ice climber
Arvada, CO
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Jan 16, 2017 - 10:27am PT
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When I started climbing in the summer of 1966 in Colorado Springs, we used a bowline to tie into the end of the rope (goldline rope) and the diaper sling with loops around the waist and up through the crotch clipped with one biner to rappel with (eventually using a locking biner for this when I could afford one). To this biner was clipped a second biner with a third biner used as the brake bar. My first biners were steel because they were cheaper than those new fangled aluminum biners. The aluminum brake bar was available at the local climbing shop (Mountain Chalet) run by Muff Cheney (a fabulous climber in his own right), and I eventually bought one and used it when I felt flush enough to be able to own a piece of equipment that served only one function. That didn't last long and I went back to using two biners as brake bars because they gave me more friction and a slower descent. Eventually the whole apparatus was replaced by a figure 8 descender many years later. I have no idea what ever became of that first goldline rope, though.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 16, 2017 - 11:07am PT
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I started climbing in 1959 as a consequence of having several housemates being interested in it. The University of Colorado had a Summer Mountain Recreation program through the Physical Education department. BITD,they had a 5 week Rock climbing school, and it was normally taught by Cary Huston (Huston Crack on Cob Rock fame). The Rock School had almost uniformly adopted the diaper seat and single carabiner-over the shoulder belay system and that was being taught in their classes. Brake bars or braking systems were known at the time, but most guys simply had leather rappel patches sewn to their climbing parkas (easily obtained at Holubar's). My first exposure was from Big Bob Lagrange, and he used crossed carabiners. Not all were suitable for that use in the early 1960s, but the availability of the military surplus "Army Aluminum" high strength oval carabiners allowed them to become the Gold Standard for use in braking systems and as brake bar substitutes. By the mid 1960s, dedicated brake bars were readily available at the usual mountaineering supply shops in Boulder (Holubar's and Gerry Mountain Sports). The Rocky Mountain Rescue Group was using a 2 carabiner braking system for lowering Stoke's litters, composed of 2 oval carabiners with brake bar joined by another doubled pair with gates crossed for strength
and safety. About 1970 and thereabouts, figure 8s were becoming widespread as well.
Added as a P.S.: it was ~ 1960 or 1961 that I was introduced to the crossed carabiner version of a brake bar.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Jan 16, 2017 - 11:08am PT
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Maybe a silly question here: what's the point of doing a biner brake as opposed to simply using a Munter hitch with only a single biner? Is it to minimize twisting/tangling the rope?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 16, 2017 - 11:28am PT
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I also remember using the figure-8 a lot for both belaying and rappeling, and the stitch-plate.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jan 16, 2017 - 11:52am PT
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In other words:
"In modern Yosemite Climbing rappelling has proved more dangerous than leading. To promote equal sharing of risk for all members of a climbing team, not just those who lead, easy detachment from the rappel brake can be obtained if the two body carabiners are oriented identically. This orientation facilitates easy detachment at the end of the rappel as well any combination of events which could cause the brake carabiners to pull to one side while rappelling, such as maneuvering over a ceiling.
Reducing the risk of frustration is an important element in safe climbing. Unfortunately, in the case of an accidental detachment while a climber is rappelling, the braking carabiner will fall free of the carabiner brake and could be lost or damaged. To prevent any frustration that the lose of this carabiner might create with the remaining members of the climbing team, a prusik knotted sling can be clipped into the braking carabiner to retain it upon system failure. The carabiners attached to the dead climber should be inspected carefully to insure that no damage has occurred which might render them unsafe for use."
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Outside the Asylum
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Jan 16, 2017 - 12:14pm PT
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This is one of those times when you wish for a multinational and multilingual forum, where we could hear more about these things from climbers in Europe. They were climbing and descending long, steep cliffs even before 1914, and certainly in the 1920s and 1930s. They undoubtedly ran into the same problems with attaching to the rope - that is, that any waist or chest tie in causes asphyxiation, if you hang from it for long. And for descending, and in rescues.
It seems possible that the earliest sit harnesses, however improvised, and the earliest brake rappels, were developed in Europe and then improved upon in North America. Was the Whillans harness the first commercially produced sit harness, and the Stitch plate the first commercial rappel/lower device?
The single carabiner rappel, with or without brake bar, never seemed secure to me. When we adopted the carabiner brake, we used the 2 x 2 x 2 system, with all gates opposed, and for really steep situations, 2 x 2 x 3. But a carabiner brake only works if you have some sort of sit harness.
I liked Steve's story of using a tree for a Munter.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Jan 16, 2017 - 12:20pm PT
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A Reference for that quote please Roger B ?
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jan 16, 2017 - 12:34pm PT
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Hi Jan, Happy New Year.
I think the quote is from Heroes an otherwise lost play by Aristophanes, c. 400 BC. Not sure. Might be apocryphal.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 16, 2017 - 02:30pm PT
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Winged klettershoes worked well for those folks while descending from the lofty spots. LOL
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Fossil climber
Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
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Jan 16, 2017 - 04:06pm PT
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I have a strong inclination that Royal started the 6 biner brake, though I couldn't swear to it.
Starting in 69 we taught it at YMS routinely. One pair of biners clipped into harness or leg loops, one more pair outboard of them ( all gates reversed so far), then a pair across those, both hard side up serving as the brake. Sometimes used it with a single biner bar for less friction. Always felt very secure with it.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jan 16, 2017 - 04:22pm PT
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Lack of other options along with the fact that oval carabiners worked well. The important thing is that old systems and equipment passed into the dustbins of history as better things came along.
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Fossil climber
Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
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Jan 16, 2017 - 04:37pm PT
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NutAgain -
As I recall the Munter hitch worked a lot better on kernmantle than on the old laid nylon, which tended to twist - especially the gold line.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jan 16, 2017 - 05:09pm PT
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what's the point of doing a biner brake as opposed to simply using a Munter hitch with only a single biner? Is it to minimize twisting/tangling the rope?
You are presumably talking about now.
BITD, the carabiner brake system showed up well before the Munter hitch, so it wasn't as if people were deciding between them.
That said, there are still some advantages to the carabiner brake method.
1. As mentioned, far less twisting of the rope.
2. Works without any screwgate carabiners.
3. Works with carabiners that are inappropriate or downright dangerous with a Munter hitch---there has to be enough size to keep the turns of the Munter hitch comfortably far from the gate.
5. Wider range of friction adjustment (by adding crossbar biners).
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jan 16, 2017 - 05:40pm PT
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It seemed to me that the Munter hitch could too easily melt the rope. I don't know if that is more or less likely than with a carabiner brake system, but nylon on nylon was always risky.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 16, 2017 - 06:13pm PT
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It seemed to me that the Munter hitch could to easily melt the rope
Well so can nylon against steel or aluminum.
We had an El Cap rescue years ago on the Tangerine Trip in 100 degree weather.
While lowering the rescuer to the victim the sheath of the rope traveling thru the brake bars started to melt.
We had to pack the brake bars with ice to keep them cool.
I came down from above Camp 4 (Muir Wall) once using a petzl stop non stop in abot 10 minutes ( speed raps) on fixed lines and melted the sheath at the bottom.
Speed rapping should never be done by n00bs.
When speed rapping you never daisy or anchor into the belays when transferring from one rope to the next.
Just one aider to stand in and switch ropes.
If you blow it your number is up ......
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TomKimbrough
Social climber
Salt Lake City
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Jan 16, 2017 - 06:32pm PT
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I remember (I think, memory being what it is.) Pratt telling me that they (Robins, Frost, Fitchen, Pratt) used 6 carabiner brakes on the 1960 ascent of the Nose.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 16, 2017 - 06:39pm PT
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That said, there are still some advantages to the carabiner brake method.
And I discovered there are disadvantages, too. There I was, on a winter solo in the Cascades.
I thought I was being so cutting edge by taking a long 7mm for the descent. I drop over the
overhanging cornice in the first rappel with the doubled 7mm and a two biner brake and all
hell 'brakes' loose! Suddenly I'm in mid-air holding on for dear life and I see the two biners
have slid off the other two biners cause the 7mm were too skinny! Ya mean I shoulda tried
this sh!t out first? Really?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Jan 16, 2017 - 07:37pm PT
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One dangerous thing I was repeatedly warned against which had happened to others, was catching clothing or long hair in the biner brake bar.
As for using it on the first ascent of the Nose, that sounds about right given its widespread usage by 1963.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jan 16, 2017 - 07:40pm PT
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That is interesting, Tom. When did you start using carabiner brakes?
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TomKimbrough
Social climber
Salt Lake City
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Jan 16, 2017 - 07:59pm PT
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In the fall of '65 I did Slab Happy Center with Pratt. I had an aluminum Holubar brake bar.
Pratt instructed me in the disadvantages of the brake bar, demonstrated the 'biner brake and that was it for the bar.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jan 16, 2017 - 08:03pm PT
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It seemed to me that the Munter hitch could too easily melt the rope. I don't know if that is more or less likely than with a carabiner brake system, but nylon on nylon was always risky.
I've heard of ropes being glazed by fast rappelling using all kinds of gadgets, and I suspect that a metal descender is much more likely to cause this than a Munter hitch, for the simple reason that the metal stays in place and heats up, whereas the Munter knot is always moving and so always rubbing sections that haven't been heated yet. (Of course, the Munter is also heating the HMS carabiner, and it could glaze the rope, but this wouldn't be essentially different from what happens with other rap devices.)
I do think that if you regularly rappel with a Munter (does anyone know anyone who actually did?), you'd probably fuzz up the sheath.
One dangerous thing I was repeatedly warned against which had happened to others, was catching clothing or long hair in the biner brake bar.
This is nasty possibility associated with virtually every descender; nothing special about the biner brake. I suspect it can occur with a Munter as well, but maybe the chances of snagging are lower and it might be easier to extract the hair or clothing.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 16, 2017 - 08:27pm PT
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Munter rappel will twist the ropes like hell.
That's one reason it never became popular.
Munter rappel also requires a larger biner to get both ropes thru.
Munter did get used quite often as belay device.
We used to use the Munter as a belay device for a couple of years.
It also twisted the rope like hell.
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Jan 17, 2017 - 12:11am PT
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I started climbing in 1958-9 and met Layton either near the end of 60 or start of 1961. From that moment we used the 6-carabiner brakebar system and none else. Before we started to climb with Layton, Larry Dalke and I had been mentored by Baker Armstrong and Dale Johnson who both at times used the system. We knew about actual brakebars, but thought they were unnecessary and something extra to carry. So I know we used them from 1960. I'm not sure who invented the idea, could have been just about anyone back then, and perhaps someone well before Layton. They far preceded swami-belts and harnesses. Whenever we saw someone with a harness we thought, again, that something was odd and unnecessary about that. Of course by about the mid-1970's harnesses would start to be everyone's favorite, while the old guard, Kamps, myself, and others continued to use either a swami or a single loop with a bowline.... Erickson was using a harness in the early 1970's, one of the earlier people around Boulder to use a harness. But back to brakebars,I think some of the more mountaineer types likely used the 6-brakebar system for ready use in the mountains, people in Colorado such as Cary Huston, Tom Hornbein, possibly even the Stettner Brothers....
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Jan 17, 2017 - 05:48am PT
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The inventor?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 17, 2017 - 08:19am PT
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Werner- What is the logic behind not attaching yourself to the belay anchors when changing ropes set up station to station? Seems like you are putting a lot of faith in a single aider and your balance if I understand you correctly.
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Scole
Trad climber
Zapopan
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Jan 17, 2017 - 11:36am PT
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I still use the carabiner break on occasion. I like how friction can easily be adjusted by adding another cross biner, or even a second break. When rapping the East Ledges after soloing the Shield, I was able to rap with all of my gear at one time by clipping the pig directly into a 12 biner break.
Every climber should know how use a carabiner break. Many modern climbers are screwed if they drop their gri gri or belay device, yet they have everything they need on them
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Jan 17, 2017 - 11:49am PT
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I popularized it for myself after my first or second dulfer in 1969.
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Tom Turrentine
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Jan 17, 2017 - 11:52am PT
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A question for those who have actually used a munter on double rope rappels.
Did you tie a separate munter for each rope side by side on single, large locking biner (as Werner specifies) or use two locking biners? (I'm guessing you can't tie a double rope into a single munter.
(good thing to know in some weird escapade, but I'm guessing I would prefer to use the two locking biners in a cross brake configuration (if that is all I had...) rather than for a munter.
TT
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Jan 17, 2017 - 12:00pm PT
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But a carabiner brake only works if you have some sort of sit harness.
IIRC... we used swamis made from 1 inch tape and just clipped the 6 biners to this....you couldn't hang around to much but no sit harness was ever used
by me ... this changed when a bunch of Colorado climbers showed up at Josh in like 78 or so .... that's when I went out and bought one for the first time (a chounard)
good topic... I always felt that the gear was different around the globe. When I started climbing with these Norwegian dudes... I first watched a muntner in use, and those boys ate some really strange food I tell ya... raw eggs into the Mac n Cheese with FISH.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jan 17, 2017 - 01:10pm PT
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People definitely rapped off just their swamis, even on overhangs. But someone also died that way in the Needles (SD, not CA). I don't recall details other than it was on the Sore Thumb; somehow they got stuck hanging and suffocated.
This was particularly sad since for some time we knew to turn upside down when hanging if swami pressure had to be relieved. Pratt had written an article for summit which illustrated how to turn upside down, step through a figure-eight sling while inverted, and then straighten back up, weighting the sling in the process.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 17, 2017 - 01:54pm PT
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Wasn't that maneuver called the "monkey hang" or something like that?
A holdover from the bowline waist tie in of yesteryear that had the same problem as a swami with no leg loops.
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Jan 17, 2017 - 01:56pm PT
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We rappeled on swamis for several years before harnesses appeared. I even did the King Swing on the Nose with a big wall rack and a swami. I was a little out of breath at the end of it. Fortunately, that was a lighter version of myself.
I was with Bridwell one time and for some reason, we didn't have enough carabiners for both of us to set up a proper brake. He showed me a version using only two carabiners. Anybody else ever use that one?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 17, 2017 - 02:01pm PT
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Yes, both carabiners are flat and the rope winds around the radiused ends.
I used that method for a while because it looked cool but it was clearly unsafe.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Jan 17, 2017 - 02:14pm PT
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Two things :
1)I am sure that there was young climber in the Pinacels of central Cali in the late 70s,who also
Succumbed due to a rappel gone wrong.
2) rick sumner, Trad climber, Reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Jan 17, 2017 - 11:49am PT
I popularized it for myself after my first or second dulfer in 1969. I hate that you were proud of your choice, but politics aside
I too, was the one to popularize it & legs loops, for myself.
(If I recall correctly, Craft weighed near 230lbs, and copied me)
I used 1inch webbing for a swami, A piece of 1inch tied with two loops that I then used wrapped around and tucked it to the resulting swami.
When it came time to rap, I pulled the two loops out and stepped into them.
Then clipped either to a short sling or the 'biener brake, directly to the Gap, that was between the two loops.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Jan 17, 2017 - 07:09pm PT
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Thanks all for posting up your thoughts & memories. I looked at the first few posts on this thread a couple days back & just re-read those & the entire thread.
All fun & fascinating history for me.
I started technical climbing in 1969. Winter of 69-70 in snowy & cold Ketchum Idaho, my friends Chris, Gordon & I would read "Ropes, Knots and Slings for Climbers" revised edition, 1967, Walt Wheelock, while smoking pot. Then we would practice knots, while our stoned state would help to duplicate stressful conditions. Most all the knots I learned have stuck like glue to my memory all these years.
By summer 1970, I had a diaper seat & was using the 6-biner rappel, but I did buy one of those trendy brake bars that slipped onto the gate of an oval carabiner. Unfortunately, it came from REI with no instructions & none of my peers had used one.
The first time I tried it, I was with a group of (once again) stoned friends in Idaho's Pioneer Range. I clipped the two ropes in & started to back over the edge, & the brake-bar popped open & the ropes fell out. I made a second try & once again the brake-bar popped open & the ropes fell out.
After a few seconds of deep thought on the subject, I reversed the brake bar, so the rappel ropes held it in place & I completed the rappel without incident. I never felt safe with one of those brake-bars afterwards.
And I stopped using drugs while climbing soon thereafter.
And for fun, here's another Ketchum friend with harness & 6-biner brake demonstrating how Austrian ski instructors rappel, at Peshastin Pinnacles in 1974.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jan 17, 2017 - 07:15pm PT
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After reading these posts, I wonder if climbers today engage in adhocry to get down.
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Juan Maderita
Trad climber
"OBcean" San Diego, CA
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Jan 17, 2017 - 07:38pm PT
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A "baby angle" piton seemed just as effective as my aluminum brake bar.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Jan 17, 2017 - 07:53pm PT
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I just about suffocated myself rapping straight down off Sickle in January 1976 with a 1" swami, no leg loops, on four ropes tied together, and packing a 75 lb haul bag. The last 2 free hanging rope lengths just about choked me out. Fortunately I was relieved at each knot by standing in aiders attached to jumars for the passover. Not well thought out, but I graduated to a 2" swami and leg loops thereafter.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jan 17, 2017 - 08:03pm PT
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Worked ok for caving as well.
160ft free hanging to the bottom room.
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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Jan 17, 2017 - 08:15pm PT
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"the thickness of the aluminum where it is notched to ride on the biner seemed
very thin."
My guess is that the biner gate would let go before the brake bar.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jan 17, 2017 - 08:30pm PT
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Gnome recalled:
1)I am sure that there was young climber in the Pinacels of central Cali in the late 70s,who also
Succumbed due to a rappel gone wrong.
Yes. Mitchell Haydon (age 16) died in 1976 at the Pinnacles when he was rapping with a carabiner brake on a swami belt,
plus a prusik above the brake that apparently tightened and he was unable to loosen it.
The full story is here, written by Jim Langford who was head ranger at the time (with edits and additions from Jody Langford):
http://web.stanford.edu/%7Eclint/pin/acc/765tomb.htm
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Darwin
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 17, 2017 - 08:59pm PT
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^ Arg. So sorry for Haydon and family back in the day. I suspect when a lot of us were starting out, we weren't far from that kind of disaster. I wasn't. I know now that we might think of how to get out of it, but would we have back then?
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rmuir
Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
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Jan 17, 2017 - 09:11pm PT
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Mr. Haan and I rapped down from Sickle Ledge on Glen Denny's old (very old) fixed lines back in 1969-70. Those ropes had been up there for years! (Somehow we managed to drop our own cords while setting up the rappel…) I recall using carabiner brakes and some form of leg slings with our swami. Not too clear on the details…
But I do remember the stiff oval cross sections of rope twisting over the 'biners in fits and starts, and the perlon dust collecting and blowing away as we watched our lives dangle before our eyes!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 18, 2017 - 11:26am PT
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Does anyone have a 1960 copy of Mountaineering- The Freedom of the Hills to see if they show a carabiner brake in that early version?
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jan 18, 2017 - 01:49pm PT
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Steve, does your question about the 1960 Mountaineers:FotH mean that carabiner brakes were in the 1967 version?
I have been trying to figure out how to answer your initial question: who popularized the CBR setup. Wayne thinks Royal, but Basic Rockcraft was published in 1971, and it seems that most of us think we were using the CBR setup by then. If Kro and Pratt were using CBR in 1960, then how do you define 'popularize'? Any one have a collection of Summit magazines to look through. Is Don Lauria reading along? When do your recall climbers for CBR setups--I cannot remember when your store opened.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 18, 2017 - 03:12pm PT
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Roger- My sense about the timing has been reinforced by Pat's contribution which is to say about 1960. If the Mountaineers promoted the method at the time of their first edition of Freedom of the Hills that would nail down the mechanism by which it spread as that book was widely read as was Wheelock's offering from around the same time.
I don't recall seeing anything in the early Summit magazines about carabiner brakes.
I think it is safe to say that the rescue community was likely responsible for the broader development of carabiner brakes for single line lowering of litters prior to being applied to rappelling situations.
By narrowing the question to the mechanism of popularization within the climbing community, it does allow a reasonable answer to be found in my estimation.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jan 18, 2017 - 03:16pm PT
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I recall seeing improvised brake bars, eg angle pitons, suggested in very early rescue texts. I was reading them in the late fifties and they were probably written in the forties.
Another question is when the cavers, who have typically been ahead of the curve when it came to rappelling, started using brake bars or those racks of brake bars they use now.
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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Jan 18, 2017 - 04:48pm PT
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I started using a rappel rack in 1974. I never saw carabiner brake bar usage but then a rack would be a better descending device. I'm guessing the rappel rack came about in the early or mid 60's. Cavers used rappel spools, dulfersitz, racks, munter hitches, whale tails, and probably biner brake bar rigs. I know of one that went down and back up a chain that he clipped biners through. The less efficient methods fell by the wayside.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 18, 2017 - 04:54pm PT
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And I stopped using drugs while climbing soon thereafter.
Hmmm, back in SoIll we quite intuitively all had the exact opposite response...
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jan 18, 2017 - 04:57pm PT
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The picture I posted of my brother was probably '71. Cave of the Winding Stair. We learned to dulfersitz in '69, but it was for emergencies only. We always used a 5-6 oval 'biner brake for climbing. My and bro and I were so light back then we only used a double brake for overhanging stuff or single strand.
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Tricouni
Mountain climber
Vancouver
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Jan 18, 2017 - 08:17pm PT
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The 1960 "Freedom of the Hills" (the 1st edition) mentions carabiner brake systems in the chapter on Rescue. For ordinary rappels, they recommed the Dulfersitz. They do discuss a single-carabiner rap system, using a diaper or figure-8, but don't really recommend them.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Outside the Asylum
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Jan 18, 2017 - 09:29pm PT
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All very interesting!
A copy of Wastl Mariner's 1963 book "Mountain Rescue Techniques" might help shed light on this. Or some earlier rescue manual, although they may only be in German. Has anyone got a copy?
Through the great kindness of Stewart W, who sometimes posts here, I recently acquired copies of the early MSR newsletters (early 1970s), which include information on home-tied sit and chest harnesses, and lots of entertaining editorials.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 18, 2017 - 09:50pm PT
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A couple of dulfersitz's was more than enough for all of us to immediately sort out another approach to rappelling given a lot of our crag was overhanging on the lower half.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 18, 2017 - 09:52pm PT
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Figure 66c was reproduced in later editions... it is not a good way to rappel...
note where the slack is...
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Jan 18, 2017 - 10:12pm PT
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Clearly the people I climbed with in 1963 had read that book. They all gave lip service to the dulfersitz and other body rappels at the same time they gave all the cautions mentioned in the book concerning brakebars and then went ahead and used six biner breakbars anyway.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jan 19, 2017 - 06:08am PT
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So, interesting observation in the Freedom of the Hills regarding weather and dulfersitz vs carabiner brake rappel. If it is too cold and icy to build a 3 (not 6) carabiner brake, dulfersitz.
In the Valley, as we all know, it is always 70 degrees, dry, with a slight, cooling breeze.
Back to Steve's question. The carabiner brakes were seen as a tool to lower someone on a rope, but not as a means to rappel, in 1960, in the books, but climbers were using the carabiner brakes. In 1971, Robbins was teaching 6 carabiner, reversed gates, brake rappels. What was in the 1967 Freedom of the Hills?
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HeldUp
climber
Former YNP VIP Ranger
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Jan 19, 2017 - 11:36am PT
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This is such fascinating history. It's interesting that with technology and lighter materials that something else hasn't taken its place.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 19, 2017 - 06:11pm PT
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I do most of my rappelling on an ATC these days or I carry a figure eight if weight isn't an issue.
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Tom Turrentine
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Jan 19, 2017 - 09:32pm PT
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anyone ever try that arm rappel?
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john hansen
climber
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Jan 19, 2017 - 09:41pm PT
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I think the arm rappel may have only been ment for low angle stuff, maybe getting troops down 30 or 40 degree slopes..
Interesting subject.
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Tricouni
Mountain climber
Vancouver
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Jan 19, 2017 - 09:47pm PT
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We did a lot of long, free body-wraps before we knew any better. These are about 1961, before the police cared about such stuff.
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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Jan 20, 2017 - 01:50am PT
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A modest contribution to a great thread...
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Tricouni
Mountain climber
Vancouver
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Jan 20, 2017 - 09:36am PT
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I used one of those brake bars for decades. Steel bar, slips onto a steel biner.I loved that system.
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Fossil climber
Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
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Jan 20, 2017 - 12:20pm PT
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Mighty Hiker - I've got a copy of Wastl Mariner's Mountain Rescue Techniques. For a biner brake rappel it is pretty much identical to the 1960 Freedom of the Hills, except that for a double brake it shows two miners connected by cord, with two hammers as brakes.
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Rustie
climber
Coeur d\\\\\\\'Alene
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Jan 20, 2017 - 12:25pm PT
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Hi there!
Sorry to drop out of sight......too much mountain bike trail politics.......even worse than bolt wars!
Are you doing a gig in Sedona this spring?
OK -- Abseiling.....
Thats what it really was, back in Auld Lang Syne.....
And it was bloody dangerous! "Tous Les Chefs se sont tue en rapell" .......Lionel Terray.
I came in just after the Full Body Dulfersitz gave way to the Sling And Biner (over the shoulder) method.
(There were some 30 variations of The Dulfer).
In Rhodesia It was considered cool to have a white Abseil mark engraved deep into the shoulder skin and muscle. The "birds" loved admiring it at the pool......or so we hoped.
Stitching a patch onto the shoulder was more comfortable ........but totally sissy.
If you were smart the rope was connected via a "Swiss Seat".....a 48" sling of 7mm rope. If not, a shorter sling would do, but would increase the risk of falling out of the whole shebang.
The more comfortable one inch military surplus webbing was unknown outside of the US.
In 1965 I "jumped ship" and tried to pick up some new techniques from the Americans, camped in the dirtbag Brit site in Chamonix. Royal Robbins taught me the Carabiner Brake Rapell. Much safer and comfortable........if, like most Americans, you had a whole bunch of Bedayn Oval carabiners to magically thread together.
The C Brake was pretty good. It could be adapted to control any size of rope, single or double. Just took some practice, and sleigh of hand.
Just about this time Clog was coming out with prototypes of it's game-changing Figure 8 device. When Royal came over to star in the BBC Live TV show. The Red Wall, in Wales, in 1966, I presented him with a Clog 8, in return for his original coaching.
It's sad to remember that Royal's partner on the show was the Enigmatic Doctor, Tom Patey, who was later killed abseiling off a sea stack, on a Fig 8.
Was this your question?
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Tom Patterson
Trad climber
Seattle
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Jan 20, 2017 - 12:36pm PT
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There may already be one (or more), but I think it'd be cool--and useful--to have a thread on the various ways to improvise when you lose a critical piece of equipment, much like the carabiner brake system. I mean, no offense intended to recent converts from the gym to real rock, but how would most of them know how to do this, if some of us old-skoolers didn't show them? I've done that several times, and it's always been met with slack jawed responses, like, "Whoa! How did you know how to do that?" And because it would make no sense to them to say, "Well, the dulfersitz (like the Whillans Harness) was the mother of invention," I just explain that the method was standard before things like ATCs, etc. But man, what great backup knowledge, right?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 20, 2017 - 01:40pm PT
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Hey Rusty- I'll be announcing the Sedona Festival very soon.
I have used the "Swiss Arm Rappel" on the Glacier Point Apron where all the rules of climbing do not apply. Worked like a charm since low angle slabs are exactly what this technique was developed to deal with.
I am curious if anyone ever used the lowering setup shown in Tricouni's post above? The rope enters that brake system at a very hard angle and given that goldline was the rope du jour it would seem to put a lot of torque on the single (gasp!) oval carabiner body which would get very hot as a result.
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Fossil climber
Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
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Jan 21, 2017 - 02:53pm PT
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Steve -
If you are referring to the double brake in Tricouni's illustrations, no - but used the 6-biner rig which is the same as the rappel setup to lower stretcher, victim and handler when I was doing some of the first ranger training sessions in 1959. Two biners, reversed gates, all the way except the brake bars which of course used the hard back. Worked very well, and you could add another biner bar for a heavier load, or even another unit entirely for a really heavy load, or reduce it if needed. Trouble was that it was difficult to adjust the level of friction once you were started, but if there wasn't quite enough the belayer on a separate rope could help out, or even support the load while you adjusted.
We also used Mariner's method of temporarily tying off the lowering line while passing a knot through the brake. Very useful on E. Face Clyde Minaret in about '73, where we lowered TM and a victim around 800' with multiple recreational (dynamic) ropes tied together. Can't recall if they were goldline.
I'm sure current rescuers use much more sophisticated equipment for such maneuvers now, but hell - they worked.
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Kironn Kid
Trad climber
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Jan 21, 2017 - 10:50pm PT
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I leaned to rap with a 4 biner brake setup tethered to my swami.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 22, 2017 - 04:50pm PT
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Necessity is the mother of invention when it comes to rescue work.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Jan 22, 2017 - 07:19pm PT
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A few years ago Kris and I climbed Bear Creak Spire without any gear... he assured me that the down climb "was casual" ....
F no.... your way up in the sky.
He quickly went over the edge and yelled up... "just start, the big holds show up after a few moves" That is Kris for you.
I was screwed... then I saw a party setting up a rappel. I walked over and asked if I could go down their ropes. The dude said "sure... but it looks like you don't have a ATC or a harness, how are you going to do that?"
"Easy i said, dulfersitz... all the old times did it this way"
no fun at all and i burned my balls a bit, but down safe is down safe..
fantastic topic
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Jan 22, 2017 - 07:27pm PT
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Agreed. One of the more interesting threads lately.
Here's hoping Steve or others can come up with more threads that involve people contributing their personal climbing experiences.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Outside the Asylum
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There is a photo of Wayne rappelling in "Yosemite in the Fifties" (page 182). On the FA of the Nose of El Capitan, probably autumn 1958. Looking rather dashing - and wearing what clearly is a diaper sling arrangement of some kind, using wide webbing at that. But not using a carabiner brake, simply the rope running through carabiners and over his shoulder.
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Tricouni
Mountain climber
Vancouver
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Does anyone know when aluminum carabiners displaced steel biners in common use in Yosemite?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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There is nothing like "rocket science" when it comes to climbing technique and equipment. Given the intelligence and education levels of climber I have always been puzzled by the glacial progress in the development of technique and gear.
I mean, really, front pointing on ice took a century to figure out.
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Happy Cowboy
Social climber
Boz MT
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Like K Kid I also used the 4-biner brake for years and still when necessary.
I've a distinct memory from my first Valley wall climb in spring 72', on the south face of the Column. Late on our first day I led the Kor roof, then prepared to rap back to Dinner ledge using my 9 mm perlon haul line (first kermantle rope I owned). The exposure was terrifying and I remembered a rap while descending on Denali the summer before where I left a serac on the same rope, single line running thru 4-biners (doubled, gates reversed) and dropped like a rock. I was carrying a heavy pack. Scared the sh#t out of me.
Back to the Column with that memory fresh I decided to add another 6 biners for friction. Big mistake as I bobbled my way down with way too much resistance. Next morning I was to jug back up and partner Guy would clean the roof. I was scared the moment I left Dinner ledge not realizing more to come. As I approached the roofs corner I could see major fray caused by the bobbling rap prvious nite. Knowing I had to remove a jug, push out
And reconnect As I swore away Guy yelled up what's wrong? I screamed "shut up, I'm freaking" and made the transition with adrenaline pulsing. The roofs edge had worn well into the core. Learned to leave a piece of my Levi's for protection!
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Alan Rubin
climber
Amherst,MA.
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In the midwest/east starting in '63, basically the same as others from that vintage. Started with body rappel (Dulfersitz) on Goldline (and I still believe, as stated upthread a bit, that everyone should learn and practice this--and a body belay--just in case). But soon transitioned to swami belt (nylon tape webbing was just becoming widely available)and leg loops. Some folks bought a lot of webbing and basically created their own primitive harnesses, but most of us just used a webbing sling in a figure 8 as removable leg loops. Initially using this system for rappels we'd pass the lower part of the rope through 2 biners with reversed gates (or a--rare--locking biner)clipped into both the waist and leg loops but then have the upper part of the rope run over the shoulder and across the back as in the body rappel. Pretty soon--especially for longer and steeper rappels, biner brakes (or brake bars for some)became the norm, though my memory is that we only used 4 biners, not 6--however 6 does make more sense so maybe my memory is wrong. All these transitions happened within a quite short span of time--and I didn't think that any of these were 'new' techniques--it is just that more 'equipment' became available to enable us to utilize them. In those days there were no stores selling climbing equipment in the midwest and only a couple in the northeast (and, really, only a handful in the rest of the country)so most gear had to be ordered from the west (Colorado or Seattle) or Europe.
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Happy Cowboy
Social climber
Boz MT
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Such an honor to see/feel some of the ST postings and by whom. Never met you Al ^^^^^ but revered your early Mountain Mag corespondent days, and when I climbed w' Johnny on Hunter south ridge. Your comments in the J. Waterman appreciation thread are as spot on as any I've read or personally felt.
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BBA
Social climber
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Rip van Winkle here… In early June 1960 I was invited up the Lost Arrow by Royal to join him and Janie Taylor. This was a horrible experience because I had never prusiked, done hardly any rappelling (it hurt too much) and wasn’t ready to step around from the Notch to the exposed face. We all used the Dulfersitz method to get back down to the Notch. I had an old Army surplus green jacket which I brought along to protect my shoulder. That one pitch rappel off the Arrow was the longest in the world, to hear my crotch tell about it.
I worked in the summer then came back at the end of August and remember using the carabiner brake to descend Apron climbs in my several trips up that area through September and October. My recollection supports what Tom Kimbrough wrote in this thread on Jan 17, as any new technique used by top climbers spread like wildfire.
It occurred to me that the system was not as safe as it could be. If you used two carabiners, a gate might open, and if you had a bar, it might flip up. If a rappel was going to be part of the plan for a climb, I brought two locking carabiners which I believe were steel Army surplus. Aluminum was expensive.
Bill Amborn
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Initially using this [swiss seat] system for rappels we'd pass the lower part of the rope through 2 biners with reversed gates (or a--rare--locking biner)clipped into both the waist and leg loops but then have the upper part of the rope run over the shoulder and across the back as in the body rappel.
Yup, that's what we all did for quite a while. I had a horrendous experience with this once rappelling in the (SD) Needles. I only had a t-shirt on top and the rope burned a groove in my neck/shoulder, leaving a scar that took years to disappear. It was an overhanging rappel, and the rope was covered with a fine grit of crystals from the Needles rock. The urge to let go and relieve the pain was almost overwhelming in spite of the obvious fatal consequences.
Shortly after that epic Bob Kamps taught me an obvious variation: stuff your t-shirt down the back of your pants for padding and instead of passing the rope over your shoulder, run it around your back at hip level as you would for a hip belay. Poof---problem solved. That's the way I rappelled until carabiner brakes became the better way.
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Alan Rubin
climber
Amherst,MA.
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Happy---Thanks for the compliments. Obviously you spent time with Johnny on Hunter so must have experiences of your own to add to that thread--which is due for a 'bump' anyway.
Rich--I never saw or even thought of a 'hip' rappel--except maybe on very low angle terrain. Trying to picture it, it seems like the 'center of balance' would be 'off', even on moderately steep terrain and more so as it got steeper--increasing the likelihood of tipping over backwards and losing control. Obviously you used this method and are still around, but can you explain why this wouldn't be a significant risk with your described technique or how you were able to counter it. Alan
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Alan, the main pivot point is at the carabiner in either method. If you are doing the classical method and pivot backwards around that point, the rope over your shoulder doesn't try to lengthen, as I think it is the radius of the circle arc traced by the shoulder. If this is correct, then the rope over the shoulder doesn't provide any resistance to tipping over and so the hip method is no worse in that regard.
In any case, there is always the "feeling hand" to keep you upright. I never had any problems even on overhanging rappels.
It is interesting that method which was so superior for lightly-clad rappellers never gained any general acceptance or even recognition. But those were days when there were only a few books, whose authors apparently assumed that there was an inch of Swiss boiled wool between every potentially vulnerable part of anatomy and the rope, and information dispersed slowly if at all, since climbers only communicated by word of mouth (and maybe a letter every now and then).
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Happy Cowboy
Social climber
Boz MT
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Feb 10, 2017 - 10:19am PT
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Perhaps not probable some clarification to comments Al made above.
A "4 biner brake" IMO refers to the braking/friction properties of the technique. In practice 2 additional biners were often needed for the 4 biners to lay flat when connected to a swami.
Of relevance, I just finished reading "The Shining Mountain" by Peter Boardman "Two men on Changabang's West Wall" curtesy Avery (mentioned in his "Genuine Collectable" thread). Early on the climb Boardman drops his Clog descender, "we had not any spares. I fumbled for some Karabiners and clipped six of them together to form a friction brake". He continues in this manner for the entire rest of their epic climb, with frost nipped fingers no less! Later Tasker on their final descent drops his and comments "how difficult this must've been for Peter". This was Fall, 1975.
This got me thinking, 6 biners must've meant no locking biner used. More so the role Clog played. If my memory serves me well(Thanks Levon)Clog was my first figure eight but importantly first trustworthy locking biner?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 28, 2017 - 11:44am PT
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So many things wrong with this 1941 Canadian Rockies body rappel shot. OUCH!
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clifff
Mountain climber
golden, rollin hills of California
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May 29, 2017 - 12:49am PT
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In the early 1970s I practiced the Dulfersitz off the roof of a house many times. Lose the proper orientation and the rope will ride up out of the crouch resulting in total failure. I think it's extremely dangerous. The picture above shows it at its worst. I happily adopted the carabiner brake.
Rappelling - Be Vigilant! thread:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1662153&tn=140
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