Discussion Topic |
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| Messages 1 - 38 of total 38 in this topic |
Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Dec 10, 2016 - 12:18am PT
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Holy ghost... that's bat sh#t crazy... Chapeau...
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EdBannister
Mountain climber
13,000 feet
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Dec 10, 2016 - 01:16am PT
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Norman Kingsley wrote the first English Language book on Ice Climbing..
He did not do a self promoting video...
but he did have 200 first ascents...
some were formidable peaks..
all with crazy marginal gear...
or, Jeff Lowe climbed the north face of Ama Dablam, solo, in a DAY.
so to call yourself the climber of the most difficult ice climb, on that, is, well, embarrassing.
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Dec 10, 2016 - 02:37am PT
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A very difficult climb, but I am concerned that because the entire route is bolt protected and it was clear from the video that some of the bolts are hard to find will that wall become festooned with added bolts as parties attempt to repeat the route, but can't find previous bolts.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 10, 2016 - 06:53am PT
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It's a sport ice climb where the emphasis is entirely on the physical difficulty. All of the hardest "mixed' climbs are in the same mode.
In real ice and mixed climbing, physical prowess is important but the mental part is paramount.
What they did required tremendous physical gifts but is a an entirely different animal from onsight ice/mixed climbs.
Two different activities.....choose your poison.
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looks easy from here
climber
Ben Lomond, CA
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Dec 10, 2016 - 11:01am PT
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Clipping bolts while hanging off of hooks = sport aid.
:p
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Dec 10, 2016 - 11:06am PT
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If you watch the video, the mental aspect is quite obvious with falling ice and stone.
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ecdh
climber
the east
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Dec 10, 2016 - 11:13am PT
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Its a phase. Theyve raised the athletic bar relatively safely, someday someone will do it without bolts. Gadd has been toying with modified spectres for the foamy ice where screws wont work.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Dec 10, 2016 - 11:21am PT
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Stellar ice pump FA! Good use of a metal detector!
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TYeary
Social climber
State of decay
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Dec 10, 2016 - 11:32am PT
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Ed, wasn't Jeff's route on Ama Dablam the South Face? Just asking..
TY
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Dec 10, 2016 - 11:50am PT
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Nice camera work and editing. Looks like a pain in the ass to prep the draws for the send, knocking blocks of ice off, metal detector to find a hanger...
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Dec 10, 2016 - 04:00pm PT
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This may not translate
Sick and Twisted!
Ice is nice I love ice ,even though it's always trying to kill me,
Full conditions, Way more than That there , -was More than I could chew. . . .
It is okay if only I see the skull face at the bottom Lots of bolts on this would be fun, it gets phatt
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Dec 10, 2016 - 04:10pm PT
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You're gonna die!!!
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Dec 10, 2016 - 05:14pm PT
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Definatly a sport climb.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Dec 10, 2016 - 07:31pm PT
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come on ole timers...
first EdBannister wrote: "Norman Kingsley wrote the first English Language book on Ice Climbing.. He did not do a self promoting video..."
really? does switching the sentence order help you to see the irony in the implication of your assertions:
Norman Kingsley did not do a self promoting video... He did write the first English Language book on Ice Climbing..
ie. if instagram had existed, you're making a great case that kingsley would have been the "first" to adopt it...
that was followed up with: "so to call yourself the climber of the most difficult ice climb, on that, is, well, embarrassing."
no more embarrassing than saying that tommy and kevin's ascent of the dawn wall is the most difficult rock climb when alex hasn't free soloed it.
while the sentence may technically be incomplete as it should have said "the most technically difficult single pitch [mostly] water ice climbing", it certainly isn't anywhere near "embarrassing"...
ie. your shade is shady... :)
then with all due respect to a master we have donini's: "In real ice and mixed climbing, physical prowess is important but the mental part is paramount. What they did required tremendous physical gifts but is a an entirely different animal from onsight ice-mixed climbs. Two different activities.....choose your poison."
so... you think sitting in an amphitheatre with a 500' active waterfall, while climbing overhanging and car sized styrofoam ice is the same as clipping bolts at ceuse just because... it is bolt protected?
nah, there's a reason gadd and emmett, the two guys who opened up this game, probably have, in combination, as many/more, heady ice climbing free soloes and naturally protected and onsight big mountain ice climbs, than almost anyone else in the crowd.
and it ain't because this is a completely different activity...
while the psychological component may not be quite as strong, it certainly hasn't been eliminated, at least in that environs [and at least from the perspective of this soon to be old person's armchair]...
thanks for the post Watermann2!!!!!
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Dec 10, 2016 - 08:11pm PT
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Pretty wild stuff! At first I wasn't quite sure what was going on. So they rapped down the route, exposed the bolts, put in the draws, and sent? That looked like some crazy fun. Hats off! But keep the helmets on....
BAd
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cavemonkey
Ice climber
ak
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Dec 10, 2016 - 08:33pm PT
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Klemen is the real deal for those of you who don't know
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Dec 10, 2016 - 08:54pm PT
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ice inna the eyeballs
that alone is crazyshite
beautiful setting for sure
TFPU!
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Dec 10, 2016 - 09:33pm PT
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XTreme sport, bolt protected ice climbs, vs traditional ice climbs are very impressive.
Vs Trad waterfall leads, equals: Another something to argue about.
Where's the "yure gunna die" factor these bolt-protected, but way X-Treme Dazes?
I'll live with my stodgy & boring past, which is way more stodgy & boring than many of the old climbers here experienced.
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micro_marc
Gym climber
Squamish
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Dec 11, 2016 - 07:47am PT
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"nah, there's a reason gadd and emmett, the two guys who opened up this game, probably have, in combination, as many/more, heady ice climbing free soloes and naturally protected and onsight big mountain ice climbs, than almost anyone else in the crowd"
I don't think this is true. Tim has been on an expedition to the Garwal once, and climbed in Scotland in winter. Will has done one hard alpine route in the Rockies (Howse of Cards) Overall alpinism isn't their focus nor heady solos.
While clearly burly and not completely safe in terms of objective hazard this is still sport climbing. Not that there is anything wrong with that, it looks like a wild pitch!
Water ice normally only gets so hard. Grade 6+ is pretty simple for strong climbers. It's not surprising that in the search of difficulty that ice climbing has gone in this direction.
The hardest ice I've led is always in the mountains. Thin pasty smears with poor protection.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Dec 11, 2016 - 08:55am PT
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^^^^
i guess it depends on how we agree to define "big mountain" and "the crowd"...
given how "big mountain" is typically defined you have a fair point. i was including all of the 500-1000m naturally protected WI6+ ice climbing that gadd and i assummed [maybe incorrectly?] that emmett had done in there, but fair enough that that terminology was a bit misleading. i should have just left it as "many/more, naturally protected and onsight big water ice climbs, than almost anyone else in the crowd"
regarding heady solos not being their focus, a couple things... didn't intend to imply that that is what they have focused on nor that that is primarily what they are known for. and if "the crowd" we are comparing them to consists of lacelle, leclerc, and pucher then your point is well taken and gadd and emmett are just a couple of punters like the rest of us... otoh, and maybe i am incorrect on this, as i looked for documentation and couldn't find any readily available, i thought gadd did a bunch of free soloing of hardish water ice in his youth and pretty much got to the point where he was bored with that. but you likely know better than me, and maybe he's done less unroped climbing than i thought...
however regarding helmcken, i'm going to continue to [potentially] dig a deeper hole with what i wrote from the armchair unless you've actually climbed there or unless emmett, gadd, premerl or someone else shows up to give horse's mouth information.
if we were to create an ice climbing continuum of hazard and psychological challenge where 0 was overhanging, uniced bolted mixed climbing ala the ciniplex cave in the rockies and 10 was an onsight free solo of infinite patience on mt. robson, then for sure helmcken is far closer to a 0 than a 10.
at the same time, i'm arguing it's also not a zero and that it is not nearly as black and white as donini assserted...
but thanks for dropping your two bits, as i may have inadvertently exaggerated for the sake of making an argument ;) and it never hurts to be respectfully called out... [and if anyone who's actually climbed there, you included, has a different opinion, i'll be happy to stand down...]
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micro_marc
Gym climber
Squamish
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Dec 11, 2016 - 09:16am PT
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^ yes I have climbed there (Helmken) and we had to leave because conditions were far too hazardous. Too wet with spray shooting everywhere due to an in-formed ice cone beneath the falls.
I was only referring to the comment about 'big mountain' climbing. But if you meant 'multipitch ice/mixed' than it makes sense. While I have loads of respect for these guys and their accomplishments I don't put them in the 'primarily Alpinist' category like Jeff Lowe or Donini.
For the record 'infinite patience' was not very hard technically. It's definitely not a 10 on your theoretical hazard scale. It was just a good climb maybe blown a little out of proportion due to the 'legendary' status of the emperor face.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Dec 11, 2016 - 09:23am PT
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^^^^
hahahaha... nothing like arguing with someone who's not in an armchair... thanks for sharing your perspective...
so honest question: if doing an onsight free solo of a big alpine route that has only had on the order of a dozenish roped ascents is not a ten on a theoretical "hazard and psychological challenge [and not technical difficulty] scale", what would be?
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micro_marc
Gym climber
Squamish
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Dec 11, 2016 - 09:28am PT
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Doing the same thing on the Shining Wall of GIV
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Dec 11, 2016 - 09:35am PT
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^^^^
when that gets free soloed, i'll amend the proposed scale accordingly... ;) and if you're arguing that the original ascent was the 10, then fair enough, but that robson onsight can't be too far behind on the proposed scale... and arguing which is the 9.5 and which is the 10 is kind of like arguing about which third party took more hits of acid... ie. it's way way beyond my pay grade.
cheers dude. and congrats on one hell of a couple of years.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Dec 11, 2016 - 10:38am PT
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Anyone know how they got the full-face shots. Minicams attached to their axes?
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Dec 11, 2016 - 10:51am PT
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^ Roger, I'd assume the cams were attached to their tools. In the Youtube info about the video is says, "Shot 100% on the HERO4® camera".
Then in the comments, someone asks:
Are the GoPro channel videos all actually shot entirely on a GoPro? I've seen a lot of GoPro footage and it's never looked as good as these, not to mention the sound quality is much better than other ones I've heard. For example: When they're in the vehicle.
Team Elevate (Tim Emmet replies):
We used the go pro out of the case for better sound quality :-)
Its not entirely clear, but seems like only GoPro cameras were used... and probably attached to their axes for the views you mention.
edit - re. nah000's comment, "hahahaha... nothing like arguing with someone who's not in an armchair..." - hahaha exactly, as I realize who micro_marc is.... "Gym climber" :-)
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ecdh
climber
the east
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Dec 11, 2016 - 11:09am PT
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Kunlun, ha yeah thats them, the modded spectres. Be interesting to try but dont look simple to place.
As far as i know gadd, emmet bolt because theres no other way to protect the routes, doing as much on lead hanging off tools as possible, sometimes tagging the drill. Ive seen gadd do FAs of WI6/7 routes bolting on lead and didnt raise an eyebrow, tho he puts immense time into making routes safe.
I think they care less about the grades than the media puts out, as gadds instagrade comments indicate. But i also think he is a safety neurotic who simply climbs more each year than most people think is possible. Add it all up and bar is raised pretty high.
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TYeary
Social climber
State of decay
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Dec 11, 2016 - 01:16pm PT
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TY
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Gerry
Mountain climber
Suffolk, UK
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Dec 22, 2016 - 01:02am PT
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I don't think this is true. Tim has been on an expedition to the Garwal once, and climbed in Scotland in winter. Will has done one hard alpine route in the Rockies (Howse of Cards) Overall alpinism isn't their focus nor heady solos.
i guess it depends on how we agree to define "big mountain" and "the crowd"...
given how "big mountain" is typically defined you have a fair point. i was including all of the 500-1000m naturally protected WI6+ ice climbing that gadd and i assummed [maybe incorrectly?] that emmett had done in there, but fair enough that that terminology was a bit misleading. i should have just left it as "many/more, naturally protected and onsight big water ice climbs, than almost anyone else in the crowd"
- Correct IMHO
Whilst I'm not sure about Will, Tim I know has done some longer routes in Europe such as Crack Baby (IV WI 6)-no bolts!
Both Tim and Clem are phenomenal climbers. With Tim it is all about speed and power, what would take me a day often only takes him and hour or two!
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Dec 22, 2016 - 06:52am PT
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This video proves, beyond any shadow of doubt, that there is something seriously wrong with ice climbers.
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cuvvy
Sport climber
arkansas
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Dec 23, 2016 - 12:00am PT
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Here goes some more of that ape creature chest beating. I would be impressed if it was climbed like a real ice climb I suppose. But I kind of thought that was part of ice climbing...... that is wasnt sport climbing?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 23, 2016 - 02:34am PT
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There's nothing about doing the best climbs of any era that renders them illegitimate in context to the present state of the art.
Unless of course a metal detector is involved.
Anyone know how they got the full-face shots. Minicams attached to their axes?
WiFi Boltcams.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Dec 23, 2016 - 03:31am PT
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I bet joe is correct. the cams were possitioned on bolts?
I have a friend who probobly could not climb M10 or 11 but he is legendary for climbing ice/mixed and putting up routs that the bolt boys cant do.. He does place bolts on summer rock climbs but dosen't believe bolts belong in the ice world. he is usually the first of the season to climb le Promenade
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Dec 23, 2016 - 05:11am PT
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I think that stuff is awesome, bolts or not. It requires vision and a lot of work.
Hats off to Will and Tim for inventing a new style of ice, just like Jeff Lowe introduced Will to mixed climbing many years ago.
So this may not relate to other forms of ice.
Big deal.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 23, 2016 - 08:40am PT
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Wonderful climb but I question the grade, it seems very arbitrary. The Australian system was open ended from the start others became so as standards leaped forward. You climb someting harder you add a number or letter.....they took a giant leap forward, where's the justification?
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| Messages 1 - 38 of total 38 in this topic |
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