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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 9, 2016 - 12:14pm PT
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Wifey's car broke down and we are in the market. We somewhat reached an impasse in that my version of adventure-mobile includes acceptable damage from tree branch scrapes, bottoming out, river crossings, etc... and she doesn't want to scratch the paint or mess up the furniture inside if I am messy with skis/snowboards/crampons or other stuff with sharp edges. Assuming we work through those issues (i.e. I learn to become a little domesticated in order to get access to an offroad-capable comfortable sleep vehicle):
What is the choice of base vehicle these days?
 Ford Econoline: tried and true for 4x4 conversions and applications where clearance matters... my leading choice, but crappy mpg, and stopped being made in 2014. The mechanical parts should carry on through 2020 for the cutaway models though?
Ford Transit: crappy small wheel wells, low clearance, suspension leafs hang down asking to be smashed by a rock. But, they are officially supported with Quigley 4x4 conversion with 2" lift. Still plagued by small tire problems and who knows what delicate stuff at risk of rubbing on the belly, and some issue with clearance of a steering rod or something if you try to go bigger on tires (even if you chop out the wheel well). And they are too new to know what long term issues will plague them. But they are way better mpg and power that similar econolines.
Promaster: maybe a great choice if staying 2WD because it is the only front wheel drive van, good snow handling for 2wd.
Should anything else be on my radar as a strong contender?
Now, 4x4 conversions:
Quigley: seems like best for very conservative folks who want to maintain full Ford support. But they seem to have performance issues where they bottom out (limited suspension travel), jarring the spine of vehicle occupants.
Quadvan in Oregon seems unprofessional, or focused on fleet/larger deals. I left several emails and tried on the phone with no response, and their website has no useful details about what they do
AgileOffroad in SoCal looks the best to me... They fix Quigley and Quadvan conversions to improve their performance, and they do their own conversions too. They told me Econoline is way more offroad-worthy than Transit, which is consistent with everything I've found from internet searching, but perhaps that is biased because it is their specialty.
Now the engine debate if going Econoline: 6.0 vs 7.3L diesel, or 5.4L V8 gas, or 6.8L V10 gas. Diesel seems to be the rage for better mpg and torque for towing power with less engine strain. But I'm not into doing extra work to maintain the engine, or deal with more expensive engine maintenance or taking extra stuff apart to get at the components for repair. And I don't think I need the extra torque: I'm not going to tow anything, just do a camper conversion (which might run a bit heavy because wifey wants full nice quality furniture (but thankfully no shower/toilet). It would have pop-top, galley with cook surface and fridge, etc.) Biggest strain for me would be the long haul up Owen's Grade on Hwy 395, maybe loaded with 4-5 people and camping and skiing and climbing gear, and maybe a couple of Kayaks.
Offroad performance I'm looking for access to Saline Valley when it's raining (but not trying to cross the monster wash-outs that happen); access to backcountry skiing trailheads when it's rainy/muddy/slushy on the approach dirt roads; Jackass Meadows out near Lake Florence in Western Sierra... places like that. No expectations of rock crawling, but want reasonably full access to offroad camping.
Other items: I'm pretty much an auto mechanical idiot, but I've figured out enough to be dangerous. I think I want a limited slip differential in the back for normal 2WD mode, with an option to turn on locking diff in front when the 4WD is engaged. Does this give me the best compromise for gas mileage but also serious performance for mud/snow/funky eastern sierra road in bad conditions?
I think my ideal looks like a 6" lifted 2011-2014 Ford Econoline E-350 passenger wagon extended with 33-35" tires, if I can learn to accept the gas mileage. Probably 5.4L V8 engine. I would be content with a foam pad on plywood over milk crates in the back, with a fridge to keep food from rotting, but wifey wants something more like a Westfalia/Sportsmobile. I'm ok with that but I'm worried that my habit of being hard on my shoes/clothes/vehicles/stuff would destroy delicate furniture.
So what do you all do? What is the current state of the art for folks who have a heart attack about Sportsmobile prices, want to be offroad capable, but have a platform that would be reasonable as a base to invest more money in a nicer furniture install?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Those Sprinters seem like the answer but why do they have such small wheels
and lack of clearance?
Get an Earthroamer! Built on an F-550 chassis!
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norm larson
climber
wilson, wyoming
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We have a Chevy Express AWD cargo van that we really like. Not really a bruiser off road vehicle but awesome in the snow which is important where we live and travel. 17.7 mpg. No matter how fast we drive. Easy to get parts and maintain anywhere. It's only a half ton vehicle but with airbags in the rear and a simple build inside it does all we need for extended climbing or skiing trips. Unfortunately they stopped making the AWD version a few years ago so they are harder to find now. Clearance is decent and we've taken to some pretty rough places. The AWD handles really well compared to a full four wheel lifted rig.
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H
Mountain climber
there and back again
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any pics Norm
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Ah, starting price for the Earth Roamer? $280K. Have at it, Mr. Trump!
BAd
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GuapoVino
climber
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I was going to suggest.....then I saw you wanted to put giant tires and a lift kit on it.
In that case go to govplanet.com and check out the LMVT's. It's a site auctioning off military equipment. You can get them for as cheap as $4000 with as little as 2000 miles on them (but 20 years old). You can find videos on Youtube where people or conversion companies have converted them into overland campers. Caterpillar diesel with an Allison transmission. I've read and talked to people who get anywhere from 10-13 mpg. Stock they only go about 55mph but you can change the gearing in the axles and disbale the limiter to go about 80.
I toyed around with doing that but just decided to be normal and get a Promaster.
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jonnyrig
climber
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Stay away from the 6.0 and 6.4 liter ford diesels. They will break, you won't be fixing them yourself, and it's expensive. The 6.0 can be bullet-proofed for a pile of money; but you probably don't want to spend that either. The 7.3 ford diesel is far more reliable, though you'd be getting an older engine. They can have their own problems, like injectors wearing out, and if you go anywhere without having a crankshaft position sensor and a 10mm wrench in your glovebox (along with knowing how to change it) you're a bit foolish.
Personally, given that most 4x4 van conversions are specialized and therefore servicing them is specialized and expensive, I'd stick with a 4x4 truck and a camper shell (not necessarily a full-on cab-over camper though). For my money (and I happen to have recently bought one) I would consider the dodge mega cab series. Just for grins, why not go down and take a look at one? Seriously, the back seats recline. Also, they fold down fully forward, and though I haven't tried it yet, I think it makes a flat enough platform to sleep on. I would imagine you could get creative with the pickup bed with a shell and some kind of home-made insert (I haven't got that far yet). For ours, both kids car seats fit easily, with plenty of room for myself, my wife, and another passenger. But hey, that's just my take on it. It has the 5.9 diesel with a 6spd, 4x4, and I'm averaging between 14 and 18mpg at 70-75mph everywhere.
Then again, I see your wife wants to be able to stand up and move about, cook, etc. Pickup with a flip-top camper instead? Maybe not.
Good luck with your search.
or.....
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psykokid
Mountain climber
Pasadena
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You dont need a humungo van with a 6" lift and 33's or 35's to go where you have listed as your backcountry destinations. A good set of AT or MT tires and some driving skill can get you a ton a places.
That being said since you are looking for a van to convert I'd second DMT's recommendation of looking at the Sprinter 4x4. We've got a 170" hi-top version at work (albeit non 4x4) and it's really nice to drive.
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Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
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Mitsubishi Delica
buy an import in BC and bring south across border. hell buy 2, you'll need the second one for parts. ($10K each)
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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my thought too, psykokid: just drive it off the road, any old van will do.
I see the length of wheelbase on those sprinters and I feel kinda queasy, like I might get stuck like a turtle on a fencepost. desert pinstripes would be the least of the worries in something that long.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Nut.... seeing how you roll in that Prius, I think that you would love a VW Van..... the old style one, motor in the back, H2O cooled, with camper pop top. Get a 88 or newer....
Some will yell that the maintenance is way to hi, but compared to the GIANT 4X4..... its cheap.
http://www.gowesty.com/
EDIT.... The next rig for me will be something just like Cragman posted.
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Juan Maderita
Trad climber
"OBcean" San Diego, CA
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NutAgain!,
You might state your budget. Also anticipated miles driven per year, etc.
I'm a hardcore 4x4 Ford van guy. On my third one, currently a 1997 E-350 extended, V-10. 33" BFG AT, 3.73:1 axle ratio, 12k winch. ARB Air Lockers and onboard air, manual locking hubs. It sees 100+ miles of dirt roads in Baja per month, desert and mountains. The V-10 sucks gas, but it can pull a fully loaded 20' enclosed trailer full of desert toys over the mountains without slowing down.
A Ford Econoline (E150, E250, E350) is built on a solid truck frame, has readily available and inexpensive (comparatively) parts, and any mechanic can work on it. Aftermarket parts for offroad are available.
The 5.4L seems to give the best mileage and sufficient power if not towing heavy trailers. The 7.3L diesel is an older engine with a reputation for reliability, but IIRC out of production for 10+ years. Haven't heard good things about the 6.0L diesel's reliability. With the changes in smog laws and required equipment on new diesel engines, I'd stick with gas. Unless driving excessive miles per year, like 25K plus miles, it probably has no cost benefit.
The Econoline should accommodate 33's with a moderate lift. You could get by with 3.73 gears without having to replace the ring & pinion set in both axles. 35's are likely problematic and I think you would need 4.10 or lower gears with the 5.4L. No need to go that route as it only gives another 1" of clearance under the diffs anyway.
You wrote, "I think I want a limited slip differential in the back for normal 2WD mode, with an option to turn on locking diff in front when the 4WD is engaged."
A limited slip differential may be helpful, assuming it works and the internal clutches are not worn out. The torque bias is useful on the road, but not powerful enough offroad when you really need it. Add a true locking differential in the rear if you want to increase traction capability. A "selectable locker" will give you the option to turn it on and off, to avoid the unusual and sometimes objectionable handling characteristics of a full-time locker. The Eaton E-Locker is my preference. Engage with the press of a button. http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/ProductsServices/Vehicle/Differentials/index.htm
ARB Air Lockers are durable, but it requires a source of compressed air (more expense) and the pump or airline can fail. Avoid going cheap with a "lunchbox locker" such as, Powertrax "LockRight". Not suitable for a rear diff and when it grenades you will have to replace other parts at great expense.
Much of the time I get by with locking the rear diff and remaining in 2WD. A rear locker in 2WD is sometimes as capable or more capable than 4WD with open diffs. 4WD with conventional open diffs only provides traction to 2 wheels, one front and one rear, those with the least amount of traction!
You could put a limited slip in the front diff. A heavy duty gear-driven type like the Detroit TrueTrac would be best. http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/ProductsServices/Vehicle/Differentials/detroit-truetrac/index.htm#tabs-1 That avoids some steering issues that a locking diff would create. But, if you want the ultimate in traction, then go with a selectable locker up front, in addition to the rear locker.
If budget is a consideration, you might look for a used 2WD camper van conversion. 4WD is a big add-on expense, even in the used market, though there are some deals to be found. Add a rear locking diff to the 2WD and a moderate lift with 31"-33" all terrain tires. Pencil the build for new, longer, shocks. That will take you most places. The rear overhang (departure angle) of the extended van is a compromise (interior space vs. offroad capability). If you aren't already informed about tire pressure, read up on it; it's a huge factor when it comes to traction and flotation on sand.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Toyota Tundra 4x with full sized camper?
Reliable
Not as expensive as new Sprinter (at least until you put the camper on it)
4x4 with loads of clearance
Toyota in grey means the desert pin striping doesn't show up... as bad
Full sized camper means amenities and sleeping space
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Psilocyborg
climber
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My 4runner works out great. On the outside its all city and has dark tinted windows, so no matter where it is parked it does not look like people are sleeping inside. Especially when parked next to a camper van haha. Me and my sweetheart can sleep comfy in the back no problem. EZ-UP over the back provides a living room. Yeah a van would be more comfortable, but I drive it to work too.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Your budget is a big part of the question.
Also do you expect it to be a daily driver too?
I looked at lots of options and projected the costs. It made sense to buy 2 cars and a truck for us. I kept my Subaru for ski day trips and my daily driver. Bought my wife a nice Prius that gets used for long trips and is the first choice of car unless awd or the truck is needed.
Then we only use the truck for camping trips and towing. Only about 3,000-5,000 miles a year. So I bought an older 1999 f250 crew cab 7.3 diesel 4x4 with a medium amount of miles for its age 200,000 but the 7.3 can go 500,000. And a pretty big slide in camper. Since we have 2 kids. I've had no problems with it and I'm very happy with it. It will go anywhere with a lot of power. Gets about 14 with the camper 17-19 without. I love having the bathroom at about 4 in the morning when I need to take a leak. And I love the shower, full kitchen, solar panel, heater, queen bed that you don't have to set up. Etc. all for about $17k!
Sprinters are expensive and not that reliable and cost a lot to repair. Toyotas and full size American pickups are the vehicles that will go 300k miles plus.
I'd go pick up with a pop up slide in camper if my family was smaller. For a daily driver too I'd probably go with an awd chevy express van.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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I too am a fan of the big old ford with a slide-in. Hallmark makes some nice ones but it really depends on whether you need to be able to bake a pie and flush a toilet in your truck bed. I kinda hate the Earthroamers, seem like a lotta nice exterior work, a cumbersome package a d outrageous prices.
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EdBannister
Mountain climber
13,000 feet
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Dec 10, 2016 - 12:55am PT
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sprinter now has a 4x4 version
the problem with a ford or a chevy is you have a ford or a chevy.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 10, 2016 - 06:48am PT
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Always have a backup!
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Dec 10, 2016 - 07:23am PT
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^^^^. Ahh Mike got the (rebuilt again) truck back! Too bad I came back to Santa Cruz early.
Maybe he'll indulge me for an off road camper that I've been lusting after
Susan
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Dec 10, 2016 - 07:29am PT
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You see a lot of this style around Moab. They're always Euros.
This was outside Gear Heads. I love it.
Susan
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zip
Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
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Dec 10, 2016 - 07:57am PT
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I have a '03 E350 7.3 Quigley Sportsmobile that I have been very happy with.
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hooblie
climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
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Dec 10, 2016 - 08:47am PT
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not a ford or chevy ...
seatbelts, sheetmelts
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rwedgee
Ice climber
CA
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Dec 10, 2016 - 09:41am PT
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17-19mpg from a 7.3 sounds plenty optimistic.
The early Sprinter 2.7 engine gets better mileage than the bigger new ones. I added the Green Diesel Engineering econo tune and eliminated the whole EGR system which bumped the mileage up about 1.5 mpg, so I'm at 22mixed, 24mpg highway. By the way, I only stumbled on GDE because the van wouldn't pass smog and after $2k in unnecessary "repairs" and visits to the CA smog referee who said to keep replacing stuff until it passes. I later learned that the computer will not allow it to pass smog...great. If someone wants to borrow the programming unit the cost is only ~$200
http://www.greendieselengineering.com/SelectProd.action?prodId=36&manufacturer=Green+Diesel+Engineering&category=Sprinter&name=Sprinter+2.7l+CDI+ECO+Tune&model=++
The road to Saline can be very bumper with Sprinter suspension and it's a long road going 5mph. Not sure how the suspension on the 4x4 unit is, perhaps it isn't as stiff as the cargo van units ?
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Dec 10, 2016 - 10:11am PT
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never had a problem with clearance as far as rocks and roots and rough roads in our 2wd sprinter. But it's the long wheel base so we could have issues with quick changes in slope angle or large water bars. i doubt they even make the 4wd in the 170" wheelbase though.
Also I didn't see white feathers mentioned in the list of conversion companies.
http://whitefeather4x4conversions.com/
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Dec 10, 2016 - 10:18am PT
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I love these threads where people with 0 offroad experience start asking about $$$ off road capable vehicles.
As has been mentioned above several times by those who have apparently at least gone shopping as well at some point - hope you have a fuk-ton of cash laying around. Getting a shiny new vehicle in your driveway is the cheap part.
And for what?
The premis that you'll have a vehicle to "get away from it all" is a fantasy only held by those who have - 0 experience. Reality is a tank of gas and a 4x4 is pretty cheap and common among "fat redneck with a gun" types. Have fun with your new friends, you'll look reeel prreeetty to them in your rig.
You also say you want to combine the dust and damage that comes with 4x4 roads with a nice swank interior conversion? Good luck with that part, too.
And you'll be approaching rock climbs with this thing and you'll be able to access SO MUCH more...yeah, yeah, yeah...never heard this one before either...
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Dec 10, 2016 - 10:43am PT
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I love the people that come on here and act like they know it all. If you have all this vast experience perhaps share instead of belittling those that are trying to provide helpful info. We routinely go days without seeing anyone. Just go midweek and all the rednecks with guns are nowhere to be seen. Also, nowhere did the OP say he wanted to 'Get away from it all'. He stated pretty clearly what he wants to get out of the van.
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zip
Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
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Dec 10, 2016 - 11:01am PT
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IGD,
👍
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Dec 10, 2016 - 12:09pm PT
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Nutagain,
If you've got the bucks the way to go is with these guys
http://ujointoffroad.com/
I'm down in ventura now so if you ever want to look at our 4x4 ford rig you're welcome to come over! Ours is more of a modified Salem/Kroger setup
kev
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Dec 10, 2016 - 01:28pm PT
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17-19mpg from a 7.3 sounds plenty optimistic
I don't know about a 4x4 van, which is probably worse, but my F250 is as big as they come. Crew cab, 4x4, long bed, big heavy brush guard on the front. I get 17 on average, mostly highway, consistently. I got just over 19 once on almost all freeway (filled up, drove highway, filled up again) at 65 mph on mostly flat ground. I wanted to see how good it could do. That's with a camper shell which probably helps a little bit. Measured by miles / amount of gas I pump in, waiting for the diesel bubbles to subside. It's also got a chip for better mileage / more power and a non-stock exhaust, but nothing fancy. Stock tire size. 3.73 gear ratio.
One thing people forget a lot is that 99%+ of your driving will be on roads. And they get big 4x4s for that <1% of your driving. Not only is mpg worse but handling, ride, climbing in and out, tire cost, repair cost, parking, etc are all worse. I love 4x4 because I go in the snow and sand, but stock tire size is fine for almost everything. If you need big tires, get out an walk and save wrecking your ride.
Sprinter vans aren't much better than Chevy/Ford vans. All are above average.
http://longtermqualityindex.com/
This site is for real LONG TERM quality, not the 3 years than Consumer Reports considers "long term". I usually buy cars at least 3 years old, but in excellent condition.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Dec 10, 2016 - 01:44pm PT
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I edited and it deleted some of my reply. I'll try to remember what I wrote.
I did 5 year and 10 year total cost of ownership estimates last time I bought. It can be eye opening. Purchase price, fuel cost, insurance, maintenance/repairs, tires, registration, resale value at the end. It's what made me realize it was cheaper to have two cars and a truck instead of a car and a daily driver truck. It also convinced me to get a prius. It was cheaper to buy a prius and a truck than buy just a truck and use it as a daily driver, for the options we were looking at.
If it's not a daily driver fuel cost savings may not be all that much. e.g. you may buy a Sprinter thinking you'll save money in fuel cost, but if you pay $10,000 more for the Sprinter you'd have to do a TON of driving to make that up.
I drove trucks for years, mostly toyotas. For the last 10 years I've driven a Subaru and I don't miss driving a truck daily one bit.
Oh yeah, California and the stupid weight fee. In CA if you have a pick up or a cargo van you get charged a weight fee and have to get commercial plates, for us it would be an extra $250 a year! My truck was converted to a "house car" with a campershell and carpet kit before I bought it, I think it's getting harder to get that designation. So you may want to start with a passenger van and convert it, rather than a cargo van. But I guess if you converted a cargo van you should be able to transfer it to a house car with the DMV.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Dec 10, 2016 - 01:57pm PT
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I think the chevy awd is a viscous coupling awd. So you have front wheel drive until a wheel spins and then it sends power to the back axle too, or maybe vice versa. Real 4x4 with a transfer case sends power to both axles when engaged, so it's more capable off road but worse mpg.
You can convert an express to full 4x4 but then you are dealing with a customized application which is harder / more expensive to work on as mentioned up thread on the ford van 4x4 conversions.
It's kind of the same thing with powering the left and right wheels. Only one wheel gets power at a time. But if you have a limited slip differential and one wheel spins power will go to the other wheel too. My truck has it and it makes a huge difference.
Another good option would be a Ram with a cummins diesel and a pop up camper. Ram/dodge is not a great chassis (ford is the best) but the cummins is the best engine. They get great mpg. A pop up camper is small and light enough to not hold you back much on rough roads. A big hard sided camper is heavy and wide and you have to drive slowly and carefully off road.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Dec 10, 2016 - 05:12pm PT
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We did a ton of 4 wheeling in our AWD astro this summer. It went everywhere! If the Express has a simeler AWD I bet it does just fine.
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rwedgee
Ice climber
CA
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Dec 10, 2016 - 06:57pm PT
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The Fet, I've had several Fords mostly the 7.3's but a 6.0 also , the 6.0 got better mileage but still not as much as yours. I drive mellow, not heavy on the pedal and coast before I'm on the brakes. On my 3rd Subaru now and love it looking for something similar that has a low range 4x4 with a 4 cylinder and gets over 20mpg city. Not a huge Jeep fan but the Patriot has an inline 4 and their "Freedom Off Road Group" package with Continuously Var. Trans with Off-Road Crawl Ratio. Similar size and mileage to a Forester. The Jeep Compass has ~10Cubic feet less cargo so that's a no go. Really hard to find a used one as they list as 4x4 but that is really AWD, not with the 4x4 low. Silver or tan but most are black and white. Thought I found the perfect one but it had manual windows.
LOL who even makes those on a 2015 model ?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Dec 10, 2016 - 07:02pm PT
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I want something big enough to have an indoor kitchen for bug season and crappy weather. big enough to have a bit of breathing room for 2 people and all their gear for extended everyday liveing. we did it in the astro this summer but it was tight.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 11, 2016 - 06:10am PT
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Looks like a successful moment there, though!
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Dec 11, 2016 - 11:18am PT
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The express awd (and Gmc version) are hard to find in CA.
The only ones I found were at a used truck dealership and they wanted over retail value and wouldn't budge. But I was impressed with them. Drove nice, good power. They are a much newer design vs the ford E series.
I saw an express awd conversion van on Craigslist a couple hours away. I drove down, it looked great. Was planning on buying it but crawled under to start inspecting it and thought where's the awd system? The guy thought it was awd and listed it as such but was plain old rwd. WTF?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Dec 11, 2016 - 04:00pm PT
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Jay. the entire summer was a grand success. Bummed we did not get to hook up with you. We did meet WYO rock man. Super awsome dude. As soon as we got back to the north east we ended up cooking in the rain.. I could get an awning but I really want to be able to stand up to put my pants on ;) There was a bit of Sprinter envy this summer but we also went way, way deeper than we saw the sprinters go.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 12, 2016 - 11:58am PT
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Thanks tons for all the input folks!
Updates:
1. Will not be used as daily driver. I work from home, would use it for grocery runs and occasional errands, and then for adventures.
2. Each summer would do at least one big drive from SoCal up through Oregon or out to Utah. So lots of highway miles, but then go bouncing around on dirt roads to explore. I've never been to North Rim of Grand Canyon, Tuweep/Toroweap and want to visit places way out with no fear of getting stuck in mushy clay when it rains.
3. In between adventures would be climbing and/or backcountry ski runs in the eastern sierra, and some more summer trips with the kids in the eastern sierra, winter/spring break exploring death valley or saline valley, etc.
4. Xmas, winter break ski trips with kids in Tahoe area sleeping in parking lots.
For wifey, truck with camper-shell is a non-starter. Same with trailer. So we are definitely looking at a van. I've thrown out Promaster because of the ridiculously low rear axle even though the front wheel drive was very attractive, and thrown out Transit for the low hanging leaf springs in the back.
Chevy Express or GMC with AWD could be a contender... but what we are focusing on now are Econoline and Mercedes Low Roof Sprinter 4x4 Passenger Wagon. Seems like Mercedes would be better on the highway and the Econoline would be better off-road because of the shorter wheel base and higher clearance with the 4wd conversion and bigger tires. I haven't done homework on how a lift would impact the stock Mercedes Sprinter 4x4.
I've spread-sheeted up the costs for Econoline (9mpg) vs. Mercedes Sprinter 4x4 (16mpg) and honestly it's not much different for 8k-10k miles per year. Especially when cost of a 2014 Econoline with a brand new badass 4wd conversion dictated by us is $36k and cost for a new stock Mercedes Sprinter 4x4 is about $60k out the door. It would take $5/gallon gas and 22,000 miles driving per year before you hit a 5-year break-even on the total cost (also factoring in the $200 oil changes for Mercedes vs $40 oil changes for Ford).
So, Dingus I was almost sold on the fear of Frankstein 4wd conversions... but then I thought if we get the 4wd conversion ourselves from a semi-local highly regarded converter, and we know EXACTLY what parts are modified, it will make it easier to get serviced when needed. Maybe I'm just a fool that needs to get burned before I take my hand out of the fire.
Any other things I should be paying attention to? I'm going to do more homework on these items:
1) Feasibility of getting the cheaper 2wd Mercedes Sprinter and then doing the after-market 4wd conversion to get similar wheel travel and clearance as the Econoline conversion.
2) Explore stock Mercedes Sprinter 4x4 with a lift and bigger tires.
3) Spot check mechanics in the towns nearest to where I'm likely to break down and see where I can find people qualified to deal with either case.
4) What exactly is converted in the badass 4wd conversion and is it all stock parts easy to source or weird stuff with custom welding and drill-holes?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 12, 2016 - 12:11pm PT
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I would bet gud money a lift of the Merc would be difficult, if even possible, and a likely voiding of the warranty. It would also be pretty useless unless you put bigger wheels on which might not fit.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Dec 12, 2016 - 12:28pm PT
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Couple of quick things
1. What would the base interior be like in the econoline vs sprinter.
2. You've done the research but isn't the stock sprinter 4x4 way less than 60k? I thought it was well under 50k.
3. Our converted 158"sprinter with solar panels and roof racks gets over 20mpg regularly. Edmunds says the 4x4 sprinter is right at 20mpg. Others say higher.
4. The sprinter is likely to have MUCH higher resale value.
5. You appear to be using the upper end cost of a sprinter oil change and the low end for the econoline.
OTOH, if the Sprinter breaks down it is typically very expensive to fix. We were just recently almost stuck in Lake Isabella for 2 weeks waiting for a part but the mechanic was able to Frankenstein some hoses together to get us back.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Dec 12, 2016 - 12:36pm PT
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which of your preferences do you want to scratch up on creosote and juniper? I know which I'd pick. But then not all people've got the good itch for the rough roads.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Dec 12, 2016 - 12:54pm PT
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from http://whitefeather4x4conversions.com/faqs/
Q: Do you upgrade to off road tires?
A: Yes, the Dana’s front axle has about 36% more stopping power brakes than a stock Sprinter and requires a 17 inch wheel so we include 17 inch Michelin or BFG load range E tires with the conversion on steel or forged aluminum wheels.
Q: Can I have different tires installed?
A: Sprinters are sensitive to tire sidewall construction, their stability sensors like sturdy sidewalls which Michelin and BFG tires have.
Q: Can I have oversized tires installed as part of the conversion?
A: The Sprinter wheel wells won’t allow much of a tire size increase plus the sliding side cargo door will hit the right rear "door" if the tires are much wider or installed on the wrong backspace wheel. Our standard LT 245 tire keeps the speedometer correct and the ABS function correct.
I assume "door" is supposed to be tire
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 12, 2016 - 01:11pm PT
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Thanks Gumby - I came up with $60k because the website configurator was about $53k not including taxes and whatever else they tack on, and they seem to go for a premium if you take a very low miles used one. I haven't factored in whatever haggling/deal-making room there is for a new one. I updated my model with more optimistic mpg for Mercedes, and lower price.
Edit: Thanks for the Sprinter Whitefeather info... that data clarifies how much wiggle room for improving clearance. Econoline can be more aggressive, but the MB might be enough. The whitefeather conversion is a boatload of money, and results in more lift than the stock 4x4.
Definitely the stock 4x4 MB option is better resale value and larger addressable market of people interested vs. a customized Econoline. That said, we have no intention to sell in less than 20 years and would only get rid of it for some sort of financial disaster or family emergency. We'd be paying cash, not financing it.
Bravecowboy, I am a solid desert pinstripe dude, but that's not how I'll keep my marriage working so this vehicle would have to be cared for in a more gingerly fashion. So western sierra overly overgrown roads will be avoided but lots of open stuff on eastside and beyond. Maybe I could find some of those magnetic business signs to pile along the surfaces when I go through zones of creosote and yucca and black-banded rabbit brush scratching.
I don't think she'd look underneath the vehicle so I can still go over parallel track with tall sage in the middle.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Dec 12, 2016 - 03:22pm PT
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Talked to a 4x4 sprinter family this fall. Thing looked pleanty high off the ground to me.; Certainly way more clearance than my Astro. they told me they were getting 20mpg. what is this about $200.00 oil changes? i have never owned a diesel? you can't change your own oil on a diesel?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Dec 12, 2016 - 03:55pm PT
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I think you owe it to yourself to at least check out a truck camper before committing to van. There's lots of love for vans in the climber world but truck campers have some serious pluses (and some minuses too). I looked at vans and truck campers and ended up with a truck camper and I'm glad I went that route.
For two people a van is great.
For a family of 4, trying to live out of a van for a week or more is a recipe for driving each other crazy. My boys are 7 and 15 and it's already getting hectic in our truck camper.
Truck camper pros: you'll get much more for the money. I see people paying $40,000 plus for a van, for that kind of money you could get a really nice used truck + camper with way more room and amenities.
You can take the camper off and have a good 2nd vehicle.
Very capable off road in stock form.
Oil changes, repairs, maintenance can be done anywhere and are cheap. You may need to take of the camper so they can put it on a lift.
The camper can be a guest room at your house.
There's a lot more of them around vs. 4x4 vans, so it's much easier to find a good deal used. Even used 2wd Class B vans cost more for what you get IMO.
You don't have to spend a lot of time working on it and converting it. I see the appeal of building your own rig, it would be fun, but I don't have much spare time and I'd rather spend it doing adventures.
It's nice to have a heater, especially on ski trips. It's nice to have hot water for doing dishes. It's nice to have a ceiling fan which sucks the hot air out. There's lots of amenities, you get right off the bat with a truck camper, that can do without, but once you have them you really appreciate them.
Truck camper minuses: typically slower, worse handling and ride than a van. Some places may charge you more to park. Not as stealth. While driving you are in the cab (must get a crew cab for 4 people IMO) and can't sit a table and play games or otherwise take advantage of the room in back.
I love my camper. If it's raining, or I simply come down from a climb and want lunch, it's great to have a comfortable, relatively roomy place to hang out. Easily get stuff out of the fridge and make lunch. Go to the bathroom, etc.
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hooblie
climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
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Dec 12, 2016 - 08:12pm PT
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nutagain!, i can read past your screen name. you're not a yahoo. here's an exclusive:
you're just 9 hours west of here. there's a myriad of forks in the dirt roads, at any compass
heading and it's a wide horizon, plus a couple paved ones to williams, the south rim, and flagstaff. choose any long weekend, bring your kit, it's a cargo van (there's a passenger seat, has fuzzy paneling over insulated walls and ceiling, and not much else. couple 6' long toolboxes if you want) it's not for sale ... ever again, (thanks, Mike. it's perfect!) but i'll top it up and hand you the keys ... after a few days, you refill it (diesel) and leave a case of castrol GTX high-mileage 10W-30 (for other rigs.)
it's a quigley, comes with a few pinstripes, and i can rinse the mud.
a weekend test drive will help.
(928) sixthirtyfive oh-oh 69
early AMs, ask for hooblie
~~~~
afterwards, you can take the unconverted e250 out for a much less
cumbersome romp. maybe a locker rearend like pud's is about right
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climbingcoastie
Ice climber
Wasilla, AK
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Dec 12, 2016 - 09:23pm PT
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Not sure if you're against Chevy, but haven't seen you mention a new Chevy/GMC with a Quigely conversion.
Quigely uses OEM parts off 4x4 trucks (for all makes) except for a couple machined parts that make the two compatible. So any mechanic can work on them.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Dec 12, 2016 - 10:36pm PT
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Talked to a 4x4 sprinter family this fall. Thing looked pleanty high off the ground to me.; Certainly way more clearance than my Astro. they told me they were getting 20mpg. what is this about $200.00 oil changes? i have never owned a diesel? you can't change your own oil on a diesel? They (or at least ours) take EXACTLY 9.5 quarts and they recommend high quality synthetic oil. So your looking at roughly $60 for the oil and then disposing of 9.5 quarts as well. Plus the filter, etc.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 12, 2016 - 10:50pm PT
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Dayum Hooblie, that's a mighty fine offer!!! You got the hamster wheel a turnin' in my head and trying to figure out when I can make it happen with you. I'll follow up w/ you. Since I'm a Prius-drivin' wannabe, it's hard for me to know where the line is between what I really "need" to get where I want to go, vs. how much I am enslaved by the fantasy of bigger/more/gnarlier/go-fartherer.
And Kev, thanks for those ujoint vids. I checked out some of them too late one night last week, imagining my automotively ignorant self painting by numbers watching youtube vids figuring out how to do the work or making better buddies with a local mechanic... How to know I'm in over my head from the Ujoint FAQ:
Q. Does the conversion require any special tools?
A. Nothing specific. A 90 degree drill or plasma cutter will make the shackle sleeve install much easier. Welding is required. Yeah. Plasma cutter. Do you have to be careful to not cross the beams?
In theory it all can be learned even by someone like me... the question is how much do I want to dedicate to learning it now, what else am I willing to give up to learn it, and how likely is my marriage to survive it? So I'd probably better not get the do-it-yourself kit for now. Maybe after building some credibility with finishing projects and dumping a few major life responsibilities ;)
But I am seriously investigating the Ujoint guy vs. AgileOffroad. Seems to be a major difference in approaches, with the Twin Traction Beam used by AgileOffroad and their tuning for high-speed offroad, vs. the straight axle approach of Ujoint. The Ujoint approach seems less complex, which would seem to indicate more bomber. But those Baja races of the AgileOffroad folks would probably lead to a bomber setup too. One alarm bell raised by the Ujoint vid: they disabled the Roll Stability Control from Ford which is not a street-Kosher thing to do, but they were showing high performance street driving (such as might be required for fast lane changes in Los Angeles freeway traffic).
Again, I appreciate the input from you all. I've always found it gratifying that the more I put myself out there with this community the more I get back.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 13, 2016 - 05:42am PT
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For the "Trad Climber" the choice is clear!
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labrat
Trad climber
Erik O. Auburn, CA
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Dec 13, 2016 - 11:39am PT
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The picture above is awesome in so many ways!
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ryanb
climber
Hamilton, MT
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Jan 12, 2017 - 04:26pm PT
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We have an awd gmc savana passenger van bought last year. We live in Montana so it's gotten a good snow / light off road test.
Ours is a late model ex canadian rental that came down over the border with 50k on it after the canadian dollar crashed, I've seen similar ones all around the north west.
Even with and no lift the thing is absolutely unstoppable in the snow with good tires (came with goodyear wrangler all terrain adventure pros in the stock size). We have about a foot of crusted upside down mank in the lowlands at the moment and it does fine in unplowed spots or breaking through snowplow berms into rural driveways.
The viscous awd does keep some power to the front ( a low percent ...25 or 30 i think) at all times which keeps it predictable for highway driving in variable slush or patchy ice.
Ours also has a rear auto locker ...the only time Its ever kicked in is the one time i did get somewhat stuck (front wheel in a ditch obscured by said berm). I was able to back out easily by spinning the tires a bit until the differential and locker did their thing.
Its fine for summer forest road use too but a little big for brushy trails or for turning around on really narrow spots etc. The short wheelbase compared to an equivalent double cab truck is nice. Ground clearance is fine but not outstanding, a lift and bigger tires would help this but haven't felt the need.
There are a couple of other folks with similar vans in the small town we live in but they've all stuck 4x4 stickers on theirs with or without the t-case swap. Also lots of threads on expedition portal's forums for these vans.
The back seats aren't great (no leg room, no head rest) and I do wish for a high roof sometimes. But there is enough room to sleep sideways with a bed at window height or lengthwise behind the second row seat.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 12, 2017 - 04:47pm PT
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^^ Looks like a great setup.
After much research and much discussions with wifey to make sure we are both happy, today we put down a deposit on a Sprinter 4x4 (normal roof 144" wheel base to get a pop-top later). Darn near need a college degree to go through all the options and dependencies for which packages you can build. In the past I've always just bought a "car" without paying attention to all the gismos and options. Somehow I went deep OCD on Sprinter details.
One annoying thing is it's close but not quite wide enough for me to sleep sideways, which makes the furniture layout more challenging. We looked at a company that makes fiberglass flares to pop out the windows a bit, but we want the windows all the way around (and not tiny claustrophobic windows). Wifey wants to pay for a professional build-out because she knows I'm big on vision and come up short on execution sometimes, especially with non-computer things... I'm hoping to sneak in some DIY work or at least closely managed outsourcing as part of the build-out. Adventures ahead!
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 12, 2017 - 05:20pm PT
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I won't have it until June to start tweaking it, but I'll be reviewing what you've done in more detail. I can see how getting into all the build details can become a hobby unto itself.
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hooblie
climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
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Jan 12, 2017 - 05:42pm PT
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congratulations! those are some mighty handsome rigs, the centerpiece of a wonderful lifestyle ...
and two (or a bunch of) happy campers tucked inside ... outstanding. i admire your family ways
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Jan 20, 2017 - 02:54pm PT
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I wish we could import microvans into the US.
Dodge used to make them:
Has a truck style suspension. With the short wheel base and no bed hanging off the back, can do as well as a medium sized pickup. Can put bigger wheels on them than what is shown in this picture.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 20, 2017 - 03:07pm PT
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How ya gonna entice that guard dog outta the back of that? If he's legit he ain't gonna go
for the tossed pork chop trick.
Oh, and lemme know where you can find a truck camper small enough for that thang. ;-)
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Jan 20, 2017 - 04:47pm PT
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Nice one, Nut! Must post many pics. Envious.
DMT: Love those old Chevy flat-window vans. So cool.
BAd
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