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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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has he done Gunks 5.10 with hexes and EBs?
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Texplorer
Trad climber
Sacramento
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Perhaps more like - came to Yosemite, learned to trad climb - climbed a pre-placed gear sport-like type route. Still waiting for someone to climb the hard walls the way the common people climb trad - ala placing all your own gear. I mean what is the difference in clipping a preplaced draw on a nut on el cap vs clipping a bolt 2000 ft up in the dolomites. Hard climb without having to place gear is still sport climbing.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Impressive to be sure, but as Adam himself mentioned putting up the FFA was more impressive.
Adam may be the strongest trad climber in the world, but he needs to put up trad FAs or FFAs to be the overall best IMO.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Oakland, CA
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Jabba the Tut thinks the Dawn Wall is a sport climb? Deep thoughts from the guy shredding ropes wiTh a tibloc. Magic line? Who gives a sh#t if you're the best trad climber in the world? That thing was sport climbed too.
Honnold, croft and Potter? All great climbers with enviable style... but not as good as AO.
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Blakey
Trad climber
Sierra Vista
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You pundits are surely taking the piss....
What makes any of you think, that Ondra thinks he's the best trad climber, or whatever?
Given his pretty obvious talent he's one of the most humble climbers around, and yet some seem unable to resist the snarky comments and comparisons. They don't do any of you any credit.
He did it, now purleeese get over it.
Steve
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matty
Trad climber
under the sea
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Kauk climbed magic line on pre-placed gear and rated it 14a I believe. I agree that climbing on pre placed gear is not true trad climbing, but it's also not pure sport climbing.
What do we call it... Sprad or Tort? Pinkpoint?
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Rembrandt and Van Gogh are not the same.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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That's just ridiculous...I just read on Dorkbook yesterday that Ashima Shiraishi is THE best climber in the world. Must be true.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Oakland, CA
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Maybe we should ask her #whatsyourdawnwall?
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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I thought Norman Clyde was the best trad climber in the world?
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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Man, where is Werner when you need him?
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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FREE climbing is actually probably less and less of a percentage of overall climbing nowadays, given a large population PAYS to climb indoors now. Jus' sayin'... :-)
I agree with Alex Lowe. The best climber is the one having the most fun.
My personal old man pet peeve is the ongoing push by the recent generations of climbers to claim that any route protected solely by bolts is a "sport climb".
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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All you older guys who use the term trad have ushered in a new generation of climbers who think free climbing means climbing with no rope. I've had to actually argue the point with people that consider themselves climbers. I'm about to give up on trying to educate starry eyed gym spawn as to WTF free climbing is.
Interesting point Kevin. I always considered myself a trad climber because I only used my own pro placed on lead or clipping in situ boltz. On reflection, was clipping bolts on the runouts at Suicide and Tahquitz really trad climbing?
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caughtinside
Social climber
Oakland, CA
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So aiding el cap is trad... but freeing it is not trad.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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The basic problem with the term trad is that it derives from traditional, and that term was coined in response to sport climbing's appearance. Sport climbing has a clear cut definition.
Trad climbing doesn't.
It was always my thinking that trad climbing was ground up with gear placed on lead. Even aid was trad if it did not use gear placed on rappel or rehearsing routes on top rope.
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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Have you ever climbed El Cap? Caughtinside.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Well he would be if he does it a lot more.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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What do we call it? Pinkpoint?
You answered your own question.
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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If you weight the anchors, ever (as in while belaying) is it still a free climb?
Yes. Next?
Curt
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Trad.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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traditionally defined trad[itional] free climbing:
1. ground up
2. you fall you pull the rope
3. no aid [including to place protection whether impermanent or not]
the problem arises due to the fact that traditionally defined traditional climbing does not always result in a trad[itional] climb.
ie. the person who seconds a route that has bolted protection, even if it was put up in traditional free climbing style, is no longer climbing a trad route. they are, willingly or unwillingly, relying on an aid [bolted pro] for protection.
which is where the grey area lies. are the words "trad free climbing" to be defined by their essence, or by their resultant form?
if based on essence then a trad free climb is one whose first ascensionists followed the first three rules whether it is bolt-free or not.
if based on resultant form, then a trad free climb must just be bolt free and whether it was put up ground up, whether it was top roped or yoyo'd or not, doesn't matter.
and no i don't think there is a consensus among climbers as to what the actual definition is and so both exist simultaneously, confusing intentional communication.
and so i'll close by arguing that although trad[itional] climbing wasn't originally defined as such, it should have a fourth rule:
4. no bolts.
to leave something within the defined scope, that forces everyone who follows to not trad climb, is to not trad climb... [hahaha and imesho...]
this is not to denigrate sport climbing. i have and will always love sport climbing...
i also [as should be evidenced by the above] love pedantry. :)
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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The Warbler wrote: "Bolted protection is no more aid than pins or nuts were"
i suspect this may go downhill fast, but i'll give it a shot...
i didn't say that bolted protection was aid climbing, i said it was an aid to all those who followed... and because bolts were an aid and were for everybody who followed effectively "top down", they resulted in something that should not be considered a traditional climb for the second ascensionists [even though it both was considered that and would have been trad climbing for the first ascensionists if they followed the first three rules...]
capiche?
hahahahaha...
my argument is basically this: how can one call [even though it was initially done] a bolted climb a traditional climb if those that follow can't traditionally climb it [because they rely on in-situ "top down" bolts for protection]...
i'm arguing philosophy behind the words, not what was either historically or present-day generally used to define the words...
and by that definition i'm arguing the traditionally held definition for trad climbing was intrinsically contradictory [by accepting that bolts, as long as they were placed without aid, constituted trad climbing...]
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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I am like a fish who does not understand wate. Trad only has meaning because of post-trad climbing.
I cannot define "Trad," but Lynn and Tommy sure are great route setters.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Oakland, CA
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Hah! Trading definitions of what trad means. Like anyone cares! Ok, the best climber Yosemite has seen? Best big wall free climber.
Seems like you guys need a new term for stuff that isn't sport climbing or ground up insight FA. Widget climbing.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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The Warbler wrote: "I get what you're saying, but the logic is a bit strained."
maybe... but, you'll have to convince me, as i'm thinking it's pretty good... hahahaha.
The same might be said about a route that had dangerous loose rock to deal with on the first lead, but after being jettisoned by the leader, was not a hazard for all those that follow.
if my logic was a bit strained [and i don't disagree that there are shades of grey to what i am saying] than this example is a lot strained... while one could make the argument that you are making, i'll argue back that there is a big difference between leaving a cleaner route and leaving a protection bolt. one changes an experience in a way that the second party can most often never know [unless they are told] and the other changes an experience in a way that advertises the route ahead and provides a completely different experience climbing-wise than if there was no bolt.
The question, nah000, is whether your distinction makes that route a sport route if it's not a traditional free climb.
no.
a sport route according to the world of nah000 is another animal. think of them as two different poles.
according to moi, sport climbing is defined by in-situ [aka top-down] protection and an indifference to trad climbing [ground-up, no rehearsing, no aid] ethics
and so in between perfect trad climbing and perfect sport climbing there is a whole host of "mixed" climbing: bolted routes that were done ground up, but with some aid; traditionally protected routes that were done after rap inspection; and etc. ie. according to only myself and the argument i am making, trad climbing and sport climbing are merely only two poles, betwixt which the bulk of ascents lie [and are therefore neither perfectly trad nor perfectly sport].
which is the real issue here as far as i can tell: everybody likes to rely on binary definitions, when the binary definition is really trying to describe a continuum... ;)
edit: caughtinside: well, at least two care... hahaha.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Some of my best routes, Kevin's too, were trad for a very short period of time, no one fell or pulled ropes on lead, but all of them were instantly sport--the bolts were then in place--even for the second.
Fish noises.
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TYeary
Social climber
State of decay
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"Most modern climbers think trad means not bolt protected. Or that any route protected by gear is a trad route, regardless of how that gear gets placed or how many times it's used for a rest."
That's a fact.
TY
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OnsightOrGoHome
Trad climber
Fair Oaks
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Lots of experience in this forum and lots of differing opinions. I’ll give mine.
To trad (traditional) climb a route is climbing in the manner historical figures have climbed in years past (think John Muir, Robert Underhill, John Salathe, Clyde Norman, Fred Becky), and continues in the present for many. That is, ground up by any means possible (free, aid, piton, bolt, shoulder stand) but not relying on preplaced protection (after all, to climb a route in a traditional manner is to climb it as the FA party did, not necessarily the same technique, but rather close to the same spirit of adventure). No beta to assist in upward progression, onsight (you know the route, now go out and learn how to climb it). Experience with many techniques may be necessary. Although we’re talking specifically for rock climbing, origin comes from alpine style climbing which may be mixed.
To free climb a route is climbing ground up in a single push without using any man-made tool to aid in upward progression (except shoes and, I say reluctantly, chalk). Utilizing existing or placed protection is okay, but only for fall protection and cannot be weighted. The goal is to imitate free-solo climbing, but with fall protection (tradeoff with fall protection comes challenges related to gear in lieu of psychological challenges). Pulling the rope after falling is required (you decide whether to pull back to belay station or ground – to ground being the truest form, if not, you’re still in practice mode – read: sport). Weighting belay anchor while belaying is okay as belaying is not a function of climbing, but is necessary for protection while falling, and it is not assisting in upward progression or utilized during upward progression. Weighting the belay anchor typically only occurs where there is little room (or none) to sit and rest. If I were free-soloing, I wouldn’t even wait there.
To free-solo climb a route is climbing ground up in a single push without utilizing any existing or placed protection. It can be said that the purest form of rock climbing is without any assistance from manmade materials, including shoes (clothing optional).
To aid climb a route is utilizing any existing or placed manmade material to aid in upward progression.
Trad climbing may be free-trad or aid-trad. Meet the definition of trad climb, with the only difference being was assistance from manmade materials or physical assistance from another climber used to aid in upward progression?
The complement to trad climbing is sport climbing. That is, ground up and pulling the rope after falling not necessary, and relying on preplaced protection accepted. By definition it is the opposite of how traditional climbers would have climbed the route.
Too many rules? Does climbing “style” really matter? For some NO (ignore this and just go out and climb!); for others, YES (but keep in mind climbing is a personal experience and to each his own).
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