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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 21, 2016 - 05:12pm PT
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Do we have a thread here already about Standing Rock? If so I will get rid of this one. If not...what do you all know about this? It sounds like Corporations/Money against the real people.
I am wondering if I should go and participate and I am also wondering why our President who has nothing to lose at this point does not get this settled.
It reminds me of times in our history when "we" (me) should have gotten involved (Martin Luther King march) but I had babies....now I don't.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Nov 21, 2016 - 05:26pm PT
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It's disgusting. Obama has put a temporary stop to the pipeline, but it's guaranteed to go thru once trump is in office.
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c wilmot
climber
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Nov 21, 2016 - 05:28pm PT
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It will go by rail if no pipeline. That's really no better. We all use oil. Heck- where would climbing be without oil?
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Nov 21, 2016 - 05:31pm PT
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I think the big issue is that the pipeline company's contract's with backers was signed 2 years ago or so and is up at the end of December. As such, the intensity of the level of force used against the protesters )who have been dominantly peaceful) has ramped up over the last 2 months. I'd say your gut feeling is pretty much right on. And guess who else is invested; Donald.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2016 - 05:40pm PT
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Ok, so let's play with the players now involved. Obama, like I said, has nada, absolutely nada to lose, how do we put the pressure on him....if possible. I'm taking it a step at a time. Hope we can resolve this Before the President Elect gets in office.
Anyone here on Super Topo on top of this? I don't want to let another group down....I am seriously thinking of going to support this cause.
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David Knopp
Trad climber
CA
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Nov 21, 2016 - 05:44pm PT
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lynne you should ask yourself what help could you offer that makes the most difference-for me, i decided that there are plenty of people there but not enough food clothing or water, so i sent some money to a tribal group.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Nov 21, 2016 - 05:45pm PT
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This just didn't happen. It's been going on for four months.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2016 - 05:55pm PT
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0b4me, I was aware of what was happening, probably like most of us. I thought it would get resolved. To be honest I really did not think the United States of America would let something like this happen again. What is up with us....? on both sides. I asked myself, "Lynne, you still sit in your comfort zone while people are on the line for what they believe." I wonder about all of us "observers". Writing a check is not a problem, but is it enough?
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Nov 21, 2016 - 06:01pm PT
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I really did not think the United States of America would let something like this happen again. What is up with us....?
It's all about greed.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2016 - 06:04pm PT
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I know, and I think we all know.....about greed. Question: does anyone have a contact that I could get in touch with that is actually there?
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Nov 21, 2016 - 06:23pm PT
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Look in any craigslist anywhere.
Under 'rideshare' there are plenty of professional and amatuer protesters looking for a ride there.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 21, 2016 - 06:27pm PT
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There're petroleum pipelines everywhere in the U.S. There's one in San Timeteo Canyon where I like to stop and kick back on bike rides. It follows, more or less, the route of the second transcontinental railroad, moving refined fuel from L.A. to points east.
Of all the thousands and thousands of miles of petroleum pipelines in this country, what makes the Standing Rock one more objectionable than all those that came before it?
Is this pipeline that much more dangerous than any of the others? If so, what makes it more dangerous?
Or is this protest the Indigenous Peoples equivalent to Bundy Bird Sanctuary occupation?
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Nov 21, 2016 - 06:43pm PT
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The pipeline crosses the main water source for the Stand Rock Res just upstream from their intake valves. The pipeline was originally slated to cross near Bismark, but was abandoned for basically the same reason; potential impacts to Bismark's drinking water. The pipeline also has been placed through what are considered sacred burial grounds, lands that were originally Standing Rock lands via the 1851 treaty.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 21, 2016 - 06:47pm PT
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Don't all petroleum pipelines run near someone's drinking water? The one in San Timeteo Canyon runs for miles right on top of the water source for 100,000 people.
Go back to the 1800s, and San Timeteo Canyon was part of a Spanish land grant. I'm sure their descendants would like to have it back.
I'm just not clear I guess on what makes the Standing Rock one worse than all the others.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2016 - 06:50pm PT
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Appreciating the information everyone.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Nov 21, 2016 - 06:51pm PT
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I think the point is Chaz, the Standing Rock tribe did not want it through what they consider their area. Bismark would have been fine with them.
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amyjo
Trad climber
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Nov 22, 2016 - 12:25am PT
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More like, The whole business of pipelines and contamination has to be rethought. Seeing as there's so much evidence that they're bound to leak sooner or later. Kind of like nuclear power. Oops.
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Nov 22, 2016 - 05:41am PT
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Standing Rock is not US land: it is treaty land under recognized ownership by the People of Standing Rock. The corps of engineers has no right to grant any use or encroachment of or on these lands.
No more than the government or any corporation has the right to lay a pipeline across your back yard, there is no one who has the right to lay a pipeline across the lands of a separate and deeded nation. The history of Standing Rock, Cheyenne River, and most treaty deeded reservation lands has been one of successive waves of encroachment, theft of lands, and destruction of the culture and way of life of the people who own and live on that land. Many traditional People are rising up and refusing to allow access (read: degradation) of their lands and their local environment to the corporations.
The pipeline can be diverted to somewhere else if it must be built. As an aside, it has long been proposed to run pipelines along major interstate right of ways, to create super-conduits for transport of all types, including oil, water, electricity, and goods and people. The access for maintenance would be easier and more economical as well. These are major developed and existing corridors. Yes, it might reduce the profits (of those already making millions) to comply with these corridor designs, diverting them away from privately-held lands, but it might also save some natural land areas, preserving plants and animals and soil for the use of future generations.
This is not a problem limited to the land owners of Standing Rock: it is a problem based on greed and power that encircles the globe. Everywhere, traditional people are losing their land because of greed and the encroachment of corporate interests. Environmental, cultural, human, and tribal considerations are entirely ignored, ridiculed, or outlawed by corporately-controlled governments officials. Racism is a major component of silencing the protests of those who are being robbed, usually through ridicule, sound-bites dismissal, and inappropriate portrayal through mainstream propaganda media.
Using any excuse of expediency or economy to violate contracts does not meet the test of proper peaceful negotiation and informed consent. The tribal voices have been routinely ignored, while government agents and corporations have, in a most cavalier manner, usurped the rights and lands of traditional people.
Lynne, here is one link for ways to support. http://www.papermag.com/how-to-support-nodapl-protestors-2072880726.html I am not endorsing or recommending any of these linked sites, just providing them for information purposes. If you are interested in getting more involved in these issues, you might want to check out Survival International.
If you want to focus on Standing Rock alone, it might help if you do a little research on the history of Standing Rock, You will note that the original treaty has been systematically violated and redefined through the use of continual types of warfare—military, economic, medical, and indoctrination—to force concessions from the people who live on and with those lands. If you traumatize any people enough, they will eventually collapse, unless enough support arrives to help them withstand the onslaught.
Good for you for being concerned and wanting to help. If more people had your attitude, groups such as Survival International would have a lot more victories. Brava!
Peace to you,
feralfae
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Reeotch
climber
4 Corners Area
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Nov 22, 2016 - 06:40am PT
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I am not endorsing or recommending any of these linked sites, just providing them for information purposes.
C'mon, do really feel you have to say that? Give me a break! Take a stand.
Native people will definitely survive this onslaught. They are strong. People from our community here on the Navajo reservation in Arizona are regularly heading up there to take part in the protest.
One of the big questions about this is, why the media blackout? This is far bigger than the Bundy stand-off (interesting parallels there). Just more evidence of the death of true journalism in this country.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Nov 22, 2016 - 07:40am PT
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Eight things you can do to support the Standing Rock Sioux in stopping the Dakota Access Pipeline:
Contribute to support the Standing Rock Sioux tribe.
Contribute to the Sacred Stone Camp Legal Defense.
Contribute to the Water Collector’s Legal Fund for protesters who get arrested here.
Sign the petition to the White House to stop the pipeline.
Sign this Change.org petition by Oceti Youth to stop the pipeline.
Sign this Credo petition urging President Obama to stop the pipeline.
Sign this MoveOn petition to Stop the Violence Against the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe.
Learn about the Lakota People’s Law Project’s work for the Standing Rock protest in North Dakota here.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Nov 22, 2016 - 08:15am PT
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Obama has turned a blind eye to the egregious violations of this company. Ditto the state govt.
I'm very disappointed with Obama too. But the state government has not turned a blind eye, they are neck deep involved. The governor is an investor.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Nov 22, 2016 - 10:40am PT
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This got my attention:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/11/21/police-citing-ongoing-riot-use-water-cannons-on-dakota-access-protesters-in-freezing-weather/
Hungry profit machine literally killing people, freezing them to death, when they speak out against it. Then there are the stand-offs of the oil-industry rednecks desperate for jobs, using their dogs to attack people including children that are present to protest.
I expect to see a lot more of this type of stuff in the coming decades as resources become more constrained, profits more concentrated, and jobs more scarce. We are all rats multiplying in a shrinking cage. Trump might buy a few years of relative peace through resource plundering that creates short-term jobs, but it won't change the long-term dynamics of our consumptive society and natural tendency to aggregate wealth.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Nov 22, 2016 - 11:42am PT
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Send money for legal aid and winter wear - coats, hats, base layers, socks.
I don't personally believe that being physically there is helpful at all, unless you are really able to do more than be just another body needing food, shelter, education. All these people going "to stand with" or "experience" Standing Rock is like when a natural disaster hits and do-good organizations come in and need help navigating - using in-short-supply resources at the expense of those that truly do have need.
As for putting pressure on Obama. Here's an alternative - start putting pressure on Trump instead. Pressure him to explain how he can manage the inherent conflict of interest that he will be dealing with as president, on this issue, since he has investments in the pipeline project.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2016 - 12:16pm PT
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2014 (5)
2013 (12)
2012 (12)
2011 (15)
Statement Regarding the Dakota Access Pipeline
Bookmark and Share Email Print
Posted 11/14/2016
Release no. 16-027
Contact
Moira Kelley (DOA)
703-614-3992
moira.l.kelley.civ@mail.mil
or
Jessica Kershaw (DOI)
interior_press@ios.doi.gov
Washington, D.C. – Today, the Army informed the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe, Energy Transfer Partners, and Dakota Access, LLC, that it has completed the review that it launched on September 9, 2016. The Army has determined that additional discussion and analysis are warranted in light of the history of the Great Sioux Nation’s dispossessions of lands, the importance of Lake Oahe to the Tribe, our government-to-government relationship, and the statute governing easements through government property.
The Army invites the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe to engage in discussion regarding potential conditions on an easement for the pipeline crossing that would reduce the risk of a spill or rupture, hasten detection and response to any possible spill, or otherwise enhance the protection of Lake Oahe and the Tribe’s water supplies. The Army invites discussion of the risk of a spill in light of such conditions, and whether to grant an easement for the pipeline to cross Lake Oahe at the proposed location. The Army continues to welcome any input that the Tribe believes is relevant to the proposed pipeline crossing or the granting of an easement.
While these discussions are ongoing, construction on or under Corps land bordering Lake Oahe cannot occur because the Army has not made a final decision on whether to grant an easement. The Army will work with the Tribe on a timeline that allows for robust discussion and analysis to be completed expeditiously.
We fully support the rights of all Americans to assemble and speak freely, and urge everyone involved in protest or pipeline activities to adhere to the principles of nonviolence.
This seems pretty positive. If I read this correctly, the pipeline cannot go forward at this time and the Tribe is being recognized as a key player in this whole mess. It even appears that they historically have the upper hand in this.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2016 - 12:34pm PT
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On a positive note:
Some years ago I served on the San Diego County Planning Commission. A large corporation wanted to put a landfill (trash dump) in the San Luis Rey River bed area. We held numerous hearings on this project as it too involved Indian land that was historically sacred and the river bed was a water source originating in the Palomar Mountain area and ending at the Pacific Ocean.
Respecting the nature of the lands history and not buying into the argument of the environmental report submitted by this corporation to the Planning Commission that a lining would be constructed in the river bed that would never leak, we voted this project down.
I learned just a few days ago that the Pala Indian Tribe has just purchased the land.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Nov 22, 2016 - 12:50pm PT
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Here's an alternative - start putting pressure on Trump instead.
Sorry Terrie, I seriously doubt that would do any good.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Nov 22, 2016 - 12:54pm PT
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Thanks for the concern Lynne, I hope there is something that can be done to expose the corruption involved in these ventures. Once Trump is in I am afraid the little guy in this fight is screwed.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Nov 22, 2016 - 01:06pm PT
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Eight things you can do to support the Standing Rock Sioux in stopping the Dakota Access Pipeline:
Contribute to support the Standing Rock Sioux tribe.
Contribute to the Sacred Stone Camp Legal Defense.
Contribute to the Water Collector’s Legal Fund for protesters who get arrested here.
Sign the petition to the White House to stop the pipeline.
Sign this Change.org petition by Oceti Youth to stop the pipeline.
Sign this Credo petition urging President Obama to stop the pipeline.
Sign this MoveOn petition to Stop the Violence Against the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe.
Learn about the Lakota People’s Law Project’s work for the Standing Rock protest in North Dakota here.
9. take your money out of big banks and put in a credit union
http://www.collective-evolution.com/2016/11/10/list-of-the-17-banks-directly-funding-the-north-dakota-pipeline-how-to-stop-them/
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2016 - 01:12pm PT
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Thanks Jon. I am beginning to think it is not so much "exposing corruption" as it is for each one of us to pay attention to what is going on and stay involved. Things happen when we don't pay attention. Our lives are so "busy" (the most heinous 4 letter word ever)we seem to have little time anymore to 1) be engaged with life 2) to have fun in our life.
It was great to see you, Jon Beck, several weekends ago being engaged with your life out in JTree. Cheers, lynnie
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 22, 2016 - 04:13pm PT
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Contribute to support the Standing Rock Sioux tribe.
Contribute to the Sacred Stone Camp Legal Defense.
Contribute to the Water Collector’s Legal Fund for protesters who get arrested here.
Sign the petition to the White House to stop the pipeline.
Sign this Change.org petition by Oceti Youth to stop the pipeline.
Sign this Credo petition urging President Obama to stop the pipeline.
Sign this MoveOn petition to Stop the Violence Against the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe.
Learn about the Lakota People’s Law Project’s work for the Standing Rock protest in North Dakota here.
Stop using petroleum products. When you drive your guzzler, you are SCREAMING for ANY projects to move forward.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2016 - 04:31pm PT
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Ken M, you got me on that one. I drive a "guzzler" and I'm trying to figure out financially how to put a different car in my future.
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Nov 22, 2016 - 08:55pm PT
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Nov 22, 2016 - 04:13pm PT
Contribute to support the Standing Rock Sioux tribe.
Contribute to the Sacred Stone Camp Legal Defense.
Contribute to the Water Collector’s Legal Fund for protesters who get arrested here.
Sign the petition to the White House to stop the pipeline.
Sign this Change.org petition by Oceti Youth to stop the pipeline.
Sign this Credo petition urging President Obama to stop the pipeline.
Sign this MoveOn petition to Stop the Violence Against the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe.
Learn about the Lakota People’s Law Project’s work for the Standing Rock protest in North Dakota here.
Stop using petroleum products. When you drive your guzzler, you are SCREAMING for ANY projects to move forward.
Walk more, drive less (the Sioux in me says, "get a horse!" -- and those of you who know us will laugh.)
Consolidate travel, buy more locally from farmers, herders, local artisans. Grow a neighborhood tribe and shop together.
Stand with your family and with people to hold property rights with more respect. People have the right to avoid "civilization" on their traditional lands if they wish. Fences are a wasicu dream, after all.
My Angonquin-speaking Southern Cheyenne Grandmothers say, "Learn to share if you want to survive."
Oh, I did not mean to make where I stand in any way less than transparent, but I also had not read it all. Yes, you are correct that good will prevail. Evil usually ends up eating itself, after all. Here is another site of the messages of the Grandmothers which you might enjoy.
Sitting Bull was assassinated at Standing Rock, by the way. The wasicu were very afraid of the Ghost Dances. And on that note, your prayers will also help.
feralfae climbs down from her horse, and sits quietly again. My electronics curfew is being pushed. :)
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
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Nov 22, 2016 - 11:33pm PT
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Nov 23, 2016 - 03:08am PT
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Standing Rock is not US land: it is treaty land under recognized ownership by the People of Standing Rock. The corps of engineers has no right to grant any use or encroachment of or on these lands.
Not true, reservations are US lands and subject to all Federal laws and Federal jurisdiction. Reservations are sovereign with respect to the individual states, but not from the Federal government. This is exactly why the election of Trump is bad news for indigenous cultures who have resources that the Feds want access to.
Indians pay no state taxes, but pay Federal taxes like everyone else, the only exemption is no Federal taxation for income earned from their land allotments.
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Nov 23, 2016 - 06:51am PT
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Yes, but it is not government land, per se. It is not owned by the government, and their process of encroachment or takings must meet the same bar as would apply to your back yard. They could not get the pipeline through white land, so why not abuse those who have stood silent and without a voice for a long time? Fortunately, the rules of engagement have changed a bit, although obviously, water cannons are still considered "fair" by wasicu. Just as those same sorts of water cannons were considered "fair" against civil rights workers 50 years ago.
And the record of fiduciary oversight of the last many federal administrations calls into question the meeting of the moral obligations and intent of trust under those treaties that were signed by Sioux leaders who had no other recourse but to sign, if only to bring an end to the genocide being practiced by the federal government. I imagine if someone were picking off your family one by one, you might enter into an unfair and lopsided treaty to end the genocide as well, eh? The federal government has consistently failed to meet their fiduciary responsibilities of trust and have consistently violated the original treaties. Some of us refuse federal funds, eschew engagement with government officials, and live in peace, self-sufficient and self-supporting, but watchful.
Trump is no better or worse than Clinton. They are all self-serving venal politicians, as far as I am concerned, who have expressed their greed and self-interest to the detriment of practically the entire population of Earth and of the Earth itself. I think Jimmy Carter was the last decent president we had.
Also, I hope everyone has a very Happy Thanksgiving and holiday season. Please and Light for us all, and all best wishes for everyone.
Lynne, thank you for your concern.
feralfae
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Nov 23, 2016 - 06:59am PT
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Trump is no better or worse than Clinton.
I strongly disagree, but the Holy electoral map of Make America Great again has spoken on that one.
But I do agree with your suggestions about walking, buying local, etc. This family works on those things.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Nov 23, 2016 - 07:48am PT
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Stop using petroleum products. When you drive your guzzler, you are SCREAMING for ANY projects to move forward.
stop reproducing
I laugh at my libtard friends who drive Priuses but keep having kids!
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 23, 2016 - 07:52am PT
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Why wouldn't they have kids? The Government incentivizes having kids in a bunch of ways. And does nothing to discourage having kids.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Nov 23, 2016 - 08:12am PT
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We would have negative growth if we stopped having kids. Illegal immigration is the only thing that keeps the population going in a positive direction. Negative growth is a bad thing. We need young people to work crappy jobs and pay into Social Security.
Living sustainably should be the goal. We are in incredibly wasteful society.
http://focus.ie.edu/spains-shrinking-population
The consequences of a population that is ageing as it shrinks are well known. Less economic growth, greater difficulties in gathering tax, increased demand for public services, serious difficulties in sustaining the future of the pension systems without deep reforms, fewer facilities for innovation, greater social resistance to change, etc.
Be careful about what you wish for
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Nov 23, 2016 - 08:18am PT
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Stop using petroleum products.
I am not justifying the use of petroleum products, but until you educate the masses, and until you have an economy that is solely dependent on alternative energy, it ain't going to happen.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Nov 23, 2016 - 08:22am PT
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stop reproducing
THIS, really IS the crux of the biscuit as some would put it. We knew this in the 70's.
In the news for Standing Rock, relatively peaceful water protectors showered with water cannon, rubber bullets to the body and head, and flash grenades (one woman essentially lost her arm from one blast). Come on Obama, don't just "let it play out".
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 23, 2016 - 10:54am PT
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Once again I want to thank everyone for their participation in this conversation. It has given me much to think about as I plan how to participate more actively in some of these issues.
I have come to the (sad for me) realization that I most likely will not be able to replace my aging van with another one unless it becomes my primary residence.
Yesterday on FB a deputy sheriff spoke representing law enforcement and the Sheriff of the county. I am old enough now to know what pure rhetoric sounds like. It was rather pathetic having him state they were just upholding the "Rule of Law". And who is interpreting this rule of law, one asks?
I wonder if Native American Tribes across the United States have a coalition to represent and aide each other? Anyone know?
Feralfae, love all your comments up line on this thread. Great ideas not only from you but many. Again, thanks everyone. Lynne
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 23, 2016 - 11:34am PT
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feralfae, when you make the clear choice to use the "wasicu", a derogatory term roughly equivalent to ni**er, you lost me.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 23, 2016 - 11:41am PT
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stop reproducing
I laugh at my libtard friends who drive Priuses but keep having kids!
Jon's response to this is profound.
Also, we HAVE stopped reproducing, to a degree. Our fertility rate is now below replacement level, and our population only grows due to immigration.
US fertility rate falls to lowest on record
http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/11/health/us-lowest-fertility-rate/
I find it quite troubling that this is written about, nowhere. We have a society that is based upon constant growth, and everything is planned obsolescence. Nothing that we build today has a prayer of lasting much beyond 100 years. Compare that with the building done by Rome--buildings and aqueducts that last many many centuries.
That's progress?
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Nov 23, 2016 - 11:59am PT
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I wonder if Native American Tribes across the United States have a coalition to represent and aide each other? Anyone know?
There are three hundred tribes that have come together to support the Standing Rock Lakota.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Nov 23, 2016 - 01:25pm PT
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stop reproducing
^^^
THIS, really IS the crux of the biscuit as some would put it. We knew this in the 70's.
Aldous Huxley knew this in the 1931, and reiterated how much faster it was happening than he would have conceived, as part of Brave New World Revisited which was published in 1958.
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Nov 23, 2016 - 02:13pm PT
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Lynne,
Thank you for bringing up this issue. And for your concern.
You are always welcome in my home in Montana on your travels. You have a very good heart.
I look out at the Continental Divide from my solar home, and my Medicine Wheel is just out my door to the east. I built it myself, and many people, including me, use it for prayers. It is about 30' across of stacked iron slate slabs.
Today the chaps came to do an energy audit, after all my preaching here about energy savings, I am proud to say that my home scored 96 out of 100, and so I am happy. Most days, the sun does most of the heating, although I do have wood heat as well as back-up heat which gets turned on maybe five days each year.
And there is a lovely guest room. But you might be asked to stoke the wood fire occasionally. :)
Happy Thanksgiving to everyone!
ff
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Nov 26, 2016 - 11:11am PT
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Eco terrorists shouldn't play with matches.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Nov 29, 2016 - 06:17pm PT
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feralfae, when you make the clear choice to use the "wasicu", a derogatory term roughly equivalent to ni**er, you lost me.
Nothing wrong with the term Wasichu, Ken it's not like calling someone a redskin, or injun.
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GuapoVino
climber
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Nov 30, 2016 - 07:48am PT
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The land at the site of the halted river crossing is, as I understand it, what's called unceded treaty land. It's land that was given to them in 1851 in the Laramie Treaty but is land that was taken away without their agreement. This started in 1868 and continued into the 1960's (definitely as late as 1944).
One of the reasons that the Corps of Engineers has temporarily ordered ETP to cease work at the location of the river crossing is because they came to the realization that not all provisions under the National Historic Preservation Act were met. There was an archeological study done but evidently it wasn't thorough enough to meet the requirements of the Act and didn't involve members of the tribe. The EPA has also come out against approval because the project didn't fully meet all the requirements of the Clean Water Act.
ETP has continually moved forward with progress on the pipeline without all of the permits and approvals in place and even when ordered to stop and simply elect to pay the fines. The DOJ and Dept of the Interior has recently stepped in to halt progress when ETP seemed to be ignoring the Corps of Engineers. ETP is also sueing, claiming that they don't need permission to cross the land in question (maybe all federal land??).
Something else that's interesting is that ETP (and Rick Perry, who is a board member) lobbied heavily and were instrumental in getting the law changed to all the oil to be exported.
The governor of North Dakota evidently has a financial interest in the project which creates a conflict of interest with his decision to mobilize the state national guard to the area and approve the heavy handed techniques used by the police there. Some correspondence was recently leaked that suggested that ETP is going to be footing the bill for the cost of the law enforcement involvement there. There have been several police departments and sheriffs departments who have brought their deputies home because with they don't agree with the way it's being handled or because the public outcry from their constituents back home demanded it.
The CoE initially gave the protestors until Dec 5th to evacuate the main camp, but then rescinded it. After that the governor made a proclamation giving them until Dec 5th to vacate. Interestingly, Dec 5th is George Custet's birthday.
There are over 2000 veterans headed to the site to challenge the police and the pipeline and they're saying they're not going go along with the eviction notice by the governor. They're scheduled to be there by Dec 4th and stay until Dec 7th. The organizers cut this mobilization off at 2000 participants but more are going to show up. They're already signing people up for a second mobilization and are even talking about doing it indefinitely. It could get interesting.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Nov 30, 2016 - 08:25am PT
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Wonder if the Bundy boys will show.....
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GuapoVino
climber
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Nov 30, 2016 - 08:29am PT
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I had heard there were some of the more militant groups that expressed an interest but the offer was declined because they're trying to keep it as peaceful as possible and have a strict policy of no firearms, drugs or alcohol.
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ChristopherABrown
Social climber
Santa Barbara California
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Dec 25, 2016 - 09:43am PT
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Basically government is aiding and abetting the destruction of unalienable rights. Naturally pure water is such a right and the 9th amendment says we can make it so.
However, formally we have to organize to do this. But, there is a legal process we can use. But, the PURPOSE of free speech is abridged so we cannot inform one another and unify to do so.
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ChristopherABrown
Social climber
Santa Barbara California
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Dec 25, 2016 - 10:08am PT
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CHAZ wrote:
"Nov 21, 2016 - 06:27pm PT
There're petroleum pipelines everywhere in the U.S. There's one in San Timeteo Canyon where I like to stop and kick back on bike rides. It follows, more or less, the route of the second transcontinental railroad, moving refined fuel from L.A. to points east.
Of all the thousands and thousands of miles of petroleum pipelines in this country, what makes the Standing Rock one more objectionable than all those that came before it?
Is this pipeline that much more dangerous than any of the others? If so, what makes it more dangerous?
Or is this protest the Indigenous Peoples equivalent to Bundy Bird Sanctuary occupation? "
The DAPL is under laws of GATT and NAFTA and US or state laws mean nothing, so does not benefit any Americans except for owners and stockholders in the corporation. Being under NAFTA and GATT it is outside of US law. Having that status within US territory makes GATT and NAFTA treason.
The DAPL security is essentially a foreign military in the US enforcing corporate profits at the cost of American environment.
The Bundys failed in Nevada to understand how the BLM was a tool of the infiltration of the federal government, and examine the logical, lawful strategy for enforcing the constitution. Accordingly they failed badly causing the murder of Lavoy Finicum, RIP warrior.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 25, 2016 - 06:44pm PT
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Chris, this is a tough audience.
Simply making assertions, without any links to back up your OPINION, will not convince anyone of anything.
Exaggerating (such as asserting that laws are meaningless in the face of international treaties), just takes your credibility down......as does not answering the questions that you cite in your post, but don't answer.
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ChristopherABrown
Social climber
Santa Barbara California
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Dec 25, 2016 - 10:47pm PT
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Hah, okay. It's all right there online.
https://www.wto.org/english/res_e/booksp_e/analytic_index_e/gatt1994_e.htm
But the proof of it is in the behaviors. However, if one does not know what correct behaviors are supposed to be of officials, one will certainly not recognize how the behaviors are wring, when they are wrong. Let alone knowing why they are wrong.
I doubt your critical thinking skills are up to it, so I'll help some. The above link is daunting, and I've been at it for years, after years of listening to others who sourced it before it was a complex as it is now.
https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/dispu_e/disp_settlement_cbt_e/c1s4p1_e.htm
1.4 Participants in the dispute settlement system
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Preface
Introduction to the WTO dispute settlement system
1.1 Importance of the WTO dispute settlement system
1.2 The Dispute Settlement Understanding
1.3 Functions, objectives and key features of the dispute settlement system
1.4 Participants in the dispute settlement system
1.5 Substantive scope of the dispute settlement system
1.6 Developing country Members and the dispute settlement system
1.7 Test Questions
Historic development of the WTO dispute settlement system
WTO Bodies involved in the dispute settlement process
Legal basis for a dispute
Possible Object of a Complaint — Jurisdiction of Panels and the Appellate Body
The process — Stages in a typical WTO dispute settlement case
Legal effect of panel and appellate body reports and DSB recommendations and rulings
Dispute Settlement without recourse to Panels and the Appellate Body
Participation in dispute settlement proceedings
Participation in dispute settlement proceedings
Developing countries in WTO dispute settlement
Evaluation of the WTO dispute settlement system: results to date
Further information
Test Summary
Annexes
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Parties and third parties
The only participants in the dispute settlement system are the Member governments of the WTO), which can take part either as parties or as third parties. The WTO Secretariat, WTO observer countries, other international organizations, and regional or local governments are not entitled to initiate dispute settlement proceedings in the WTO.
The DSU sometimes refers to the Member bringing the dispute as the “complaining party” or the “complainant” (this guide mostly uses the term “complainant”). No equivalent short term is used for the “party to whom the request for consultations is addressed”. The DSU sometimes also speaks of “Member concerned”. In practice, the terms “respondent” or “defendant” are commonly used; this guide mostly uses the term “respondent”.
No non-governmental actors back to top
Since only WTO Member governments can bring disputes, it follows that private individuals or companies do not have direct access to the dispute settlement system, even if they may often be the ones (as exporters or importers) most directly and adversely affected by the measures allegedly violating the WTO Agreement. The same is true of other non-governmental organizations with a general interest in a matter before the dispute settlement system (which are often referred to as NGOs). They, too, cannot initiate WTO dispute settlement proceedings.
Of course, these organizations can, and often do, exert influence or even pressure on the government of a WTO Member with respect to the triggering of a dispute. Indeed, several WTO Members have formally adopted internal legislation under which private parties can petition their governments to bring a WTO dispute.1
There are divergent views among Members on whether non-governmental organizations may play a role in WTO dispute settlement proceedings, for example, by filing amicus curiae submissions with WTO dispute settlement bodies. According to WTO jurisprudence, panels and the Appellate Body have the discretion to accept or reject these submissions, but are not obliged to consider them.
Can you see where any group of people other than member government has standing? GATT.
I say their behavior and that of the government LE matches the expected reaction of a "member" government.
Are you getting the idea of how the legalese works now?
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Dec 26, 2016 - 07:54am PT
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Of concern to me is the crossing under a major river--the Missouri. Do other pipelines cross such critical systems? I trust the infrastructure to fail--it always does. So what happens when millions of gallons of oil get pumped into the Missouri, then the Mississippi? Of course, the company will be very sorry. They may even suffer fines--the horror! Worst case scenario--for them--would be bankruptcy. But the humans and wildlife down stream are screwed. Deep Water Horizon, anyone?
BAd
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WyoRockMan
climber
Grizzlyville, WY
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Dec 26, 2016 - 08:52am PT
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Do other pipelines cross such critical systems?
There are hundreds of pipelines crossing major river systems in the US.
http://bohs.tk/map-us-pipelines/
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ChristopherABrown
Social climber
Santa Barbara California
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Dec 26, 2016 - 11:45am PT
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Yes Bad Climber, Wyorockclimber is correct. Every pipeline in the nation crosses water ways. This is why we need to unify in the protection of these vital elements.
Basically the nation is WAY overdue for the lawful and peaceful revolution that is a part of American framing documents.
It is really quite simple. Certainly simpler than the bizarre complexities of American politics.
Based in the 9th Amendment and Article V it hinges on a majority agreement upon the most prime constitutional intent. Lincoln new about it, but history covered it. Logically so because it was the infiltration of the federal government which wanted the civil war. It seems Lincoln made a deal to prosecute the war for the infiltration IF he failed to unify Americans under the constitutions intents for their lawful and peaceful revolution to become "the rightful masters of the congress and the court".
Today, simply by agreeing that free speech has the PURPOSE of enabling the unity required to alter or abolish, a right manifested as law with Article V, we can invoke the 9th amendment. However, Article V is conducted by states legislations, so we need to unify in our states with agreement upon definition of prime constitutional right. States cannot deny or disparage our invocation of the 9th amendment when we agree. Then, they must begin conventions proposing amendment. When 38 states are ratifying, congress and the court have no authority over the amendment. These 2 declarations probably define the most prime rights.
--As a Citizen of a state of the united states for America, do you understand, agree and accept then DECLARE it is constitutional intent that the framers of the founding documents intended for us to alter or abolish government destructive to the ideal of our unalienable rights?
As a Citizen of a state of the united states for America, do you understand, agree, accept then DECLARE it is constitutional intent that the ultimate purpose of free speech be to enable the unity adequate to effectively alter or abolish government destructive to the ideal of our unalienable rights?--
However, we have a long way to go because the abridging of the PURPOSE of free speech is going to make the simple sharing of this across our masses a big challenge. I do not see we have any other chance of assuring our survival under the control of corporations that actually supported things like the biosphere. A failed effort to see if we could create a closed environment to survive in.
I have a page about the legal process that uses our agreement to control state legislations with law.
http://algoxy.com/law/lawfulpeacefulrevolution.html
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 26, 2016 - 12:54pm PT
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Christopher, this is a climbers forum. Traditionally, when a new person appears, they introduce themselves, talk about their climbing experience, and who they have climbed with that people might know. It helps in being able to relate to them, and where they are coming from.
Thanks!
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Dec 26, 2016 - 01:38pm PT
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Christopher, this is a climbers forum. Traditionally, when a new person appears, they introduce themselves, talk about their climbing experience, and who they have climbed with that people might know. It helps in being able to relate to them, and where they are coming from.
Thanks!
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 26, 2016 - 02:22pm PT
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Ken M. I was just going to post the same thing. Thanks!
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Dec 26, 2016 - 09:40pm PT
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hey there say, lynne, feralfae, and all...
say, lynne... one thing that some of us can do, if we can't
help any other way, is:
we can fast, and pray... it does things, 'higher up' that we don't understand...
i've done it for serious family situations, and even if it didn't
fix things, it eased the pain, or helped make a new way in the situation,
for those in need... and sometimes, it completely fixed things...
you just don't know...
but sure doesn't hurt...
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ChristopherABrown
Social climber
Santa Barbara California
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Dec 27, 2016 - 09:27pm PT
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Sorry, my mistake. This forum showed up in a google search for standing rock. I thought there might be some reasonable discussion with Americans that care about constitutional enforcement and vital elements. It's clear now that other things are more important here.
I thought that. "Social climber" would ID me as not a rock climber.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 27, 2016 - 10:42pm PT
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My work here is done. :)
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hooblie
climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
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Dec 28, 2016 - 08:51am PT
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pau!
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