Discussion Topic |
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| Messages 1 - 89 of total 89 in this topic |
chill
climber
The fat part of the bell-curve
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Oct 27, 2016 - 01:48pm PT
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Well, I guess his "two saints" were looking out for him.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 27, 2016 - 01:57pm PT
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Eric flew through a tree going over 90mph, he should have died, but and for the lack of a better word, it’s a MIRACLE he’s still with us.
His injuries were “only” left scapula fracture, left acromian fracture, left neck abrasion, left clavicle fracture,
3 left side rib fractures, left hemopneumothorax, grade 1, liver laceration, head trauma, multiple scalp lacerations.
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snakefoot
climber
Nor Cal
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Oct 27, 2016 - 02:03pm PT
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had friends that went up there to check out the scene and as the pic above shows, he plowed through trees and stuff. they recovered his camera. pretty insane that he is still alive, but horrible bills now.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Oct 27, 2016 - 02:04pm PT
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Did he ground out, or did he keep flying and pull his chute?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 27, 2016 - 02:07pm PT
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I think it's safe to say he probably did a lot of things after entering the tree line, but flying wasn't one of them...
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Oct 27, 2016 - 02:22pm PT
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brutal anticipation, trying to look away, but can't.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Oct 27, 2016 - 02:23pm PT
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it's almost like the agony = the ecstasy. sick calculus, but we all gotta get off somehow.
those low flights (the vids) off that exit made me smile for years. I suppose [lacerated t'aint] might, uhhh, change it for me.
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brotherbbock
climber
Alta Loma, CA
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Oct 27, 2016 - 02:33pm PT
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Any pics of the dude post crash???
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snakefoot
climber
Nor Cal
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Oct 27, 2016 - 02:37pm PT
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I dont think he deployed his pilot chute, just hit the trees and crashed through.
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Sula
Trad climber
Pennsylvania
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Oct 27, 2016 - 02:42pm PT
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As a pilot - mostly of sailplanes - this video is eye-opening. I thought BASE proximity flying was basically similar to what we do in gliders: we occasionally choose to fly close to terrain, but always with a reserve of energy and maneuverability that makes it easy to pull up and increase clearance when appropriate.
Here, Eric D. glides right into the treetops, which pretty much has to mean that the slope of the terrain was slightly less than his best glide angle, and he had no way to maneuver so as to avoid the crash. You really have to question the plan when a flight ends like that.
I'm glad (and also amazed) he's alive. I think those two saints would be justified in telling him that his luck account is now critically low and he should not try to cash any more big checks.
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snakefoot
climber
Nor Cal
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Oct 27, 2016 - 02:45pm PT
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^^^agreed he was going to slow and low, no reserve to get outta there. Basically, there are many discussions going around the community on how important it is to maintain speed for lift..
http://topgunbase.ws/speed-part-1-why-fly-fast/
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Oct 27, 2016 - 02:46pm PT
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Normally insurance for such activities is pointless. No Mistake or Big Pancake comes to mind...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 27, 2016 - 03:14pm PT
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'Proximity flying' seems like a bit of an oxymoron at this point.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Oct 27, 2016 - 03:24pm PT
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Test pilots would legitimately describe a wingsuit as “a high-speed nylon body bag”.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Oct 27, 2016 - 03:31pm PT
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So.......
I guess he's the 2nd wingsuit jumper ever to land alive without deploying his parachute
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snakefoot
climber
Nor Cal
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Oct 27, 2016 - 03:32pm PT
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SLR, about 4 people now
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rwedgee
Ice climber
CA
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Oct 27, 2016 - 03:47pm PT
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Wow, yes very lucky to be alive. I wish him a fast recovery.
In regards to the bills, what system do they have in Chamonix ?
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Oct 27, 2016 - 09:35pm PT
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Don't say crazy.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
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Oct 27, 2016 - 11:37pm PT
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Oct 28, 2016 - 12:50am PT
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Thank you, Biotch!
Come-fund-me, okay?
I'm glad this kind of sh#t is not on my bucket list.
Hope you recover some, Eric.
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Stewart Johnson
Mountain climber
lake forest
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Oct 28, 2016 - 06:18am PT
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He is an idiot. There is a quote in the interview where he says " Personally, I believed I could grasp ideas and skillsets a bit quicker than most people. -----But I now admit I wrongfully based that idea on completely unrelated experiences."
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Oct 28, 2016 - 06:34am PT
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The level to which they deny the human element and the statistical probablilty of mistakes, especiially while learning, is surreal to me - the whole conversation and culture appears to be centered around making zero mistakes up to the absolute edge and clearly often beyond the controllable. NOPE! Not for me. No mystery why the death rate is so high.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Oct 28, 2016 - 06:39am PT
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BASE gets their guardian angels from AA. Holy flocking sheep dude.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Oct 28, 2016 - 08:57am PT
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A simple fall while walking kills some while others drop from the sky virtually unscathed.
Ain't life wonderful?
Do it if you dare
Leaping form the sky
Hurling through the air
Exhilarating high
See the earth below
Soon to make a crater
Blue sky, black death
I'm off to meet my maker
Energy of the gods, adrenaline surge
Won't stop 'til I hit the ground, I'm on my way for sure
Up here in the air, this will never hurt
I'm on my way to impact, taste the high speed dirt
Paralyzed with fear
Feel velocity gain
Entering a near
Catatonic state
Pressure of the sound
Roaring through my head
Crash into the ground
Damned if I'll be dead
Jump or die!
Dropping all my weight
Going down full throttle
The pale horse awaits
Like a genie in a bottle
Fire in my veins
Faster as I go
I forgot my name
I'm a dirt torpedo
High speed dirt...
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Oct 28, 2016 - 09:12am PT
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Good interview. Thx Werner
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Burnin' Oil
Trad climber
CA
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Oct 28, 2016 - 09:28am PT
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Eric sounds like an intelligent guy who is going through a "what was I thinking" moment.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 28, 2016 - 09:30am PT
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Takes a lot of trauma and force to break a scapulae though - enough so that it's mortality due to associated injuries I thought was about 50 percent.
Guess I'm in the lucky 50%. A doctor friend told me that after one of my many bicycle accidents the radiologist at the hospital I wound up in was running around waving my x-ray at everybody and saying "Look at this. LOOK AT THIS! I've never SEEN anything like this!"
He later told me the only way he could imagine achieving the multiple fractures in my scapula was if someone really strong wound up on me with a baseball bat.
I can't imagine what it must be like to slam into the trees at 90 mph. Amazing that the guy survived.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Oct 28, 2016 - 10:06am PT
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Hey, Werner: Thanks for that interview! It's so enlightening. One of many quotes stuck out for me, and it's so true of any serious discipline:
I wasn’t learning to fly my suit well, I was just accumulating jump numbers and thinking the skills would come with jump numbers. I now realize it doesn’t work that way.
Doing a lot of something doesn't equate to really learning how to do it. We all have to have humility in the face of dangerous activities. I try to do a little mantra before every climb: Even the easiest climbs demand the greatest respect.
So glad this guy made it.
BAd
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rwedgee
Ice climber
CA
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Oct 28, 2016 - 10:55am PT
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220 lbs is huge for a wingsuit, the smaller guys have almost as much surface area but 50 pounds less weight. I'm surprised he could fly the line and still make the standard LZ. Incredible that he lived and remembers anything about it. Recover quickly !
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Oct 28, 2016 - 11:15am PT
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In the final seconds of Eric's video, one can almost hear the auto-pilot beta... Turn left... Turn left... Turn left...
It appears it is another case of proximity flying.
...
220 lbs is huge for a wingsuit, the smaller guys have almost as much surface area but 50 pounds less weight.
So true.
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Sula
Trad climber
Pennsylvania
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Oct 28, 2016 - 12:06pm PT
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220 lbs is huge for a wingsuit, the smaller guys have almost as much surface area but 50 pounds less weight. I'm surprised he could fly the line and still make the standard LZ. Somewhat surprisingly, wingloading (weight / wing area) doesn't affect your glide ratio. It does affect your best glide speed: with higher wingloading you must fly faster (which in the interview Eric acknowledges he failed to do).
Incredible that he lived and remembers anything about it. Indeed. I crashed a paraglider (wasn't nearly as violent as this event) and remember nothing of the final minute of my flight - which a doctor said is typically the case.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 28, 2016 - 12:18pm PT
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Sula, do you suppose any of these guys have any inkling of the science behind 'speed to fly'?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Oct 28, 2016 - 12:19pm PT
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wingloading (weight / wing area) doesn't affect your glide ratio.
Yes, surprised to read this, Sula.
Suppose our first flyer was 500 lbs and wing area was 10 ft square (50 lbs/ft2) and our second flyer was 100 lbs and wing area was 10 ft square (10 lbs/ft2). You're saying the glide ratio of the first flyer at 500 lbs would be the same as the second flyer at 100 lbs?
Just trying to get clear on this. Thanks.
...
"do you suppose any of these guys have any inkling of the science..."
Reily, I guess we're all a bunch of dunces, eh?
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snakefoot
climber
Nor Cal
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Oct 28, 2016 - 12:22pm PT
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Reilly, since you have some idea, why dont you explain your understanding to all us ignorant folk. and this topic is for gliders, not engine powered flight..
HFCS, yes weight only relates to speed.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Oct 28, 2016 - 12:24pm PT
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A good friend of mine died just like that a couple of years ago. He was wingsuiting and hit a tree.
When I jumped with him, he was a skydiver, and a very good one. He didn't get into BASE until wingsuits showed up.
Not all wingsuits are equal, either. The super big ones don't turn on a dime. They kind of slide a little, so you have to anticipate every move.
These guys don't just up and do a jump like that. They overfly it and refine it over and over until it is a crazy, but doable, line. Every turn is rehearsed in their minds ahead of time.
It can't be argued that they are dying like flies, though. Not just the beginners, as it is with normal BASE. Some of the best wingsuit flyers are dying.
How they are going to straighten that out isn't my fight, but I think that they should be free to do what they want to do. Europe isn't like the U.S., where we are sue-happy. You can slip on some ice in front of the 7-11 here and sue the store. That mindset doesn't even exist in Europe.
In that respect, they are more of a "home of the free"
than we are.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Oct 28, 2016 - 12:32pm PT
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Eric jumps straight to the head of the class. Experience is only second to judgement.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 28, 2016 - 12:35pm PT
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this topic is for gliders, not engine powered flight
I rest my case.
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snakefoot
climber
Nor Cal
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Oct 28, 2016 - 12:37pm PT
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Not sure anything is rested here. can you fill me in? I'm really curious.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Oct 28, 2016 - 12:40pm PT
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HFCS, yes weight only relates to speed.
So snakefoot, I'm 500 lbs, my girl is 100 lbs. Wing surface area for both our suits is 10 ft2. You're in agreement with Sula that our glide ratios - whether in theory or actual practice - would be the same?
"Wingloading" in my case would be 50 lbs/ft sq. Wingloading in my girl's case would be 10 lbs/ft sq. Right?
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snakefoot
climber
Nor Cal
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Oct 28, 2016 - 12:45pm PT
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yes, but the speed at which you fly will be different. more weight increases speed when all other things are the same. This is very simplified on a very complex structure (wingsuit).
thanks gary, these guys who wrote this are friends and i try to read as much as i can on the whole topic.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Oct 28, 2016 - 12:52pm PT
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(1) but the speed at which you fly will be different
Got it.
(2) This is very simplified on a very complex structure
Got it.
Yet it still seems given the huge difference in "wingloading" in our example, I at 500 lbs would have to fly at an impractically fast speed to acquire the glide ratio of my 100 lb partner.
I'm a noob, here, thanks for the discussion.
PS.
And that being the case then re different speeds, I guess she and I could never expect to be able to fly together, side by side if not hand in hand. Boo-hoo.
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snakefoot
climber
Nor Cal
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Oct 28, 2016 - 12:56pm PT
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More like she would have to fly faster to keep up with you at the same glide, like put weights on
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snakefoot
climber
Nor Cal
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Oct 28, 2016 - 12:59pm PT
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tami, sounds like true love to me, eh?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Oct 28, 2016 - 12:59pm PT
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A couple more points here, if you don't mind... (1) There is the terminal velocity of a falling body behind all this. Right? No body goes faster than 135, say. Right? (2) So we are talking, and constrained by, a velocity range to all this, say 80 to 135 mph. Right?
(3) Curious. Does any (heavy) wingsuit jumper ever "glide" literally twice as fast as another given more or less the same suit?
...
re: free fall, human
"With air resistance acting on an object that has been dropped, the object will eventually reach a terminal velocity, which is around 53 m/s (195 km/h or 122 mph) for a human skydiver."
"A typical skydiver in a spread-eagle position will reach terminal velocity after about 12 seconds, during which time he will have fallen around 450 m (1,500 ft)."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_fall
So my ultimate speed at 500 lbs and "wingloading" of 50 lbs/ft2 seems awfully limited.
But no worries, I've got a jetpack. lol
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snakefoot
climber
Nor Cal
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Oct 28, 2016 - 01:07pm PT
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again, the idea of terminal is to limit the variable in the equation. We can fall and i mean fall well over 200 mph if we point head down. the topic is oversimplified to say the least, but usually people fall within the range of 90-140 downward. the wingsuit changes the direction of velocity and this can be changed with other factors, body postion, weight, type of suit and so on.
this weight factor used to be an advantage in the old wingsuit races that were steep and had no need for other skills. now the race courses are about multiple skills
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AlanDoak
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Oct 28, 2016 - 02:52pm PT
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Wingsuit flyers are not in freefall, they in in gliding flight.
Sailplane theory:
"If the operating weight of a given glider is increased, the
stall airspeed, minimum controllable airspeed, minimum
sink airspeed, and the best L/D airspeed are increased by
a factor equal to the square root of the increase in weight.
[Figure 5-9] Glide ratio is not affected by weight because,
while a heavier glider sinks faster, it does so at a greater
airspeed. The glider descends faster, but covers the same
horizontal distance (at a higher speed) as a lighter glider with
the same glide ratio and starting altitude."
http://www.sweethaven02.com/Aviation/MaintHandbook/gfh_ch05.pdf
Cross-country glider pilots will commonly add water ballast to their vessel in order to increase the speed they can reach the next point; which does not reduce the maximum glide ratio, but does reduce climbing performance in thermal updrafts.
I'm assuming there are more non-idealities in a wingsuit versus a sailplane, but this is the first order effect.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Oct 28, 2016 - 03:01pm PT
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That's another thing I find interesting about that interview - they talk like highly educated and experienced aeronautical engineers or top air force test pilots or something - to let us all know they have such a solid grip on the medium - but holy sh!t - they're so not - and they so don't...
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snakefoot
climber
Nor Cal
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Oct 28, 2016 - 03:02pm PT
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Rich who did the interview was a navy fighter pilot fool.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Oct 28, 2016 - 03:04pm PT
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Haha - perfect - and you??
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snakefoot
climber
Nor Cal
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Oct 28, 2016 - 03:07pm PT
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Oh, are we now discussing credentials in order to be an as#@&%e? lets just say i have fifteen years of formal education in neuroscience.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Oct 28, 2016 - 03:10pm PT
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Oh yeah - and type AAA+++maxxx, too, you nail it!
Have fun with gravity, expert fly boy!
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snakefoot
climber
Nor Cal
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Oct 28, 2016 - 03:15pm PT
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hey, i enjoy the snarky comments. no prob for me, talk is cheap around here.
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Sula
Trad climber
Pennsylvania
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Oct 28, 2016 - 03:35pm PT
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While I was away, AlanDoak supplied a good answer. Yes, the speeds of various performance points (stall, best glide, etc.) scale with the square root of wingloading.
So if wingloading were to increase by a factor of 5 (unlikely in the case of Wingsuit BASE jumpers), speeds increase by a factor of 2.24. A more reasonable ratio between max and min wingloading would be something like 2.5, which gives a speed ratio of 1.58.
And it's probably not realistic to assume that small and large jumpers would have the same wing area. I imagine that a large wingsuit takes more strength to control properly, so it would be used only by a large & strong jumper.
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Sula
Trad climber
Pennsylvania
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Oct 28, 2016 - 03:46pm PT
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And if we wish to talk about terminal velocity in freefall (which is indeed different from gliding in a wingsuit), that scales in a somewhat similar way, but with a complication: it's proportional to the square root of mass divided by "projected area".
Because the heavier jumper can be expected to have a higher projected area, his terminal velocity will not be as much greater as a calculation based on weight alone would indicate.
(All of this ignores annoying complications such as Reynolds number, subtleties in how drag changes with speed, etc.)
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The guy above
climber
Across the pond
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Oct 28, 2016 - 04:18pm PT
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That's another thing I find interesting about that interview - they talk like highly educated and experienced aeronautical engineers or top air force test pilots or something - to let us all know they have such a solid grip on the medium - but holy sh!t - they're so not - and they so don't...
Ha, ha, ha, ha!!!
Here's your shovel, you keep digging...
Richard Webb has been active for more than 20 years in both professional aviation and canopy sports. He holds an Aeronautical Engineering degree and multiple Flight Instructor certificates in Airplanes and Helicopters.
A nine year chapter in the US Navy flying F-14 Tomcats off aircraft carriers came to an end after buzzing an airport control tower in a brand new F/A-18 Super Hornet. After being notified that his flyby services were no longer needed, Richard was politely asked to leave the Navy.
Totally worth it.
And in case you think that's a joke...
http://articles.latimes.com/2005/oct/19/local/me-jetfighter19
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Gunks Guy
Trad climber
New Paltz, NY
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Oct 28, 2016 - 04:29pm PT
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I felt the same as the interviewer in the article Werner posted....
"Whatever Eric lacked in wingsuit preparation prior to his accident, he redeemed himself with candor, humility and genuine intent on getting his story out to unprepared wingsuiters like himself. His honest, unflattering answers to tough questions are a true testament of his character"
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The guy above
climber
Across the pond
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Oct 28, 2016 - 04:51pm PT
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Totally agree Gunks. Eric fell foul to a psychological trap that affects many people in this kind of sports where getting away with it may seem like a success.
He luckily got to learn his lesson and instead of keeping it under wraps he's going public with it to try and get other people to learn the lesson without having to chop 8" treetops with their collarbones. That takes more balls than flying between trees 2 feet off the ground and a fair dose of humility at that.
This article did the rounds in the skydiving/base/alpine climbing circles some time ago, outlining the exact same issues touched in the TGB interview (minus the technical parts). Worth a read http://scubatechphilippines.com/scuba_blog/guy-garman-world-depth-record-fatal-dive/
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Oct 28, 2016 - 07:38pm PT
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Thanks, Sula, for the reply. Fascinating subject.
Of course I mentioned a 500 lb guy and 100 lb girl just to
help with the analysis. Also I mentioned terminal free fall just
to imagine an approx upper constraint on speed.
Have to admit though, watching a 500 lb wingsuiter tear down one
of those lines I can imagine would be a sight to behold. Sheesh!
Happy flying all.
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rwedgee
Ice climber
CA
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Oct 28, 2016 - 08:55pm PT
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As far as terminal velocity, think about a tandem skydive where two people are more or less stacked on top of each other, now you have ~twice the weight but about the same surface area presented to the air, hence they will go much faster. Enough so they pitch out a drogue chute to slow them down so the camera guy can keep up and opening the main chute at that speed would probably tear your neck off.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Oct 29, 2016 - 05:15pm PT
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he should have died
Right, the problem was with him and his misunderstanding of whether or not he should die, not with us and our misunderstanding of why he didn't die.
Other people just believe and behave in ways that we in our omniscient omnipotent understanding just can't seem to make sense of. And when their beliefs and behaviors don't make sense to us, we tell ourselves that it's their fault - that really they were supposed to die.
Like dude, shape up, didn't you get the memo? - you were supposed to die! He must be bummed to have to spoil our self-confirming belief party.
Or, we can always call it a miracle. Any self-confirming explanation can be improved with the judicious addition of leprechauns, if that's the way we like to roll.
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Oct 29, 2016 - 07:49pm PT
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Trees and snow can break a big fall:
FROM WIKI:
"On the night of 24 March 1944, 21-year-old Alkemade was one of seven crew members in Avro Lancaster B Mk. II, DS664,[1] of No. 115 Squadron RAF. Returning from a 300 bomber raid on Berlin, east of Schmallenberg, DS664 was attacked by a German Ju 88 night-fighter, [Note 1] caught fire and began to spiral out of control. Because his parachute was unserviceable, Alkemade jumped from the aircraft without one, preferring to die by impact rather than burn to death. He fell 18,000 feet (5,500 m) to the ground below.His fall was broken by pine trees and a soft snow cover on the ground. He was able to move his arms and legs and suffered only a sprained leg. The Lancaster crashed in flames, killing pilot Jack Newman and three other members of the crew. They are buried in the CWGC's Hanover War Cemetery. Alkemade was subsequently captured and interviewed by the Gestapo, who were initially suspicious of his claim to have fallen without a parachute until the wreckage of the aircraft was examined. He was a celebrated prisoner of war, before being repatriated in May 1945."
If you mess up, you gotta hope that you hit trees and the snow just right, This guy got away with a sprained leg. There are a couple of other cases, a Russian, etc. although I believe they were much more badly injured.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Oct 30, 2016 - 12:01pm PT
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I can't really discuss things like wingloading when it comes to suits.
More experienced skydivers can use a super small canopy, and up the wing loading like crazy. It makes them super responsive, and you can hook turn them on landing, and drag your bare feet through the grass for hundreds of feet.
As far as glide ratio, it suffered. You did have better forward speed, though, so if the spot was downwind of the LZ, a faster canopy would penetrate and get you home. A big, slow, docile canopy would back up or not penetrate a head wind, and you would walk home. Most of the time this wasn't an issue, though.
The suits have been changing, though. The first ones had a small wing that went from the wrist to the waist, and there was a wing between the legs. The newer ones go from the wrist to the ankle. They also now have inflatable cells, just like a paraglider or parachute. Those cells inflate and the wingsuit, which used to be just fabric, now has the familiar camber which we see in airplane wings (and paragliders and parachutes).
The better suits have made more sketchy flying lines possible, as you could see from the original post, which honestly, scared the sh#t out of me, even before he hit the tree. That line would have been impossible 10 years ago, because the old suits were smaller and didn't have a wingfoil camber. It takes a lot of time to get used to the bigger "flying carpet" suits, though. As I said, they don't turn on a dime. Turns must be anticipated more with the new suits. You can get killed from flying too much suit. That is apparently what killed my close friend. He had moved up to a hotter suit.
I wish that we had a current, high volume, wingsuiter here. I know a little about it because I know guys who do it, but I've been getting into paragliding lately, and I think that it will be the last sport that I take up. Some of the advanced wings are very dangerous to fly, but they break distance and altitude records. So the hot flyers switch from safer, doggy wings, to super high aspect ratio wings, that have caused a lot of broken spines and some deaths. Still, to get long flights, experienced flyers use those less safe wings.
Back to the point, though. It is now so far from anything that I ever did, that I'm not much better than anyone else here on the topic of wingsuits.
It doesn't matter what you do. There will always be a group who pushes their limits, and the limits of a sport as a whole.
I'll leave you with one important point. Wingsuiting is so different from regular BASE off of free objects, that it is really a separate sport.
The gear has gotten very good in normal BASE, and you can jump your whole life without incident if you are careful about object choice and wind conditions. Wingsuiting is killing the very best. Regular BASE fatalities are heavily skewed towards the newbies. They always have been.
They keep a BASE fatality list. If they removed the wingsuiting fatalities, it would look a hell of a lot safer.
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Sula
Trad climber
Pennsylvania
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Oct 30, 2016 - 07:14pm PT
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If they removed the wingsuiting fatalities, it would look a hell of a lot safer.
Maybe these should be broken out into a separate list?
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chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
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The glide ratio discussion here isnt making sense. Sure the glide ratio for a heavier wingload is the same as for a light load as long as the aircraft flys at a higher speed. But without POWER to maintain speed, the heavy load will stall. I learned this fact in the C5A simulator at Travis Airforce base. Accustomed to light aircraft, we crashed into the runway many times until we followed the instructors directions to apply alot more power. Of course flaps provide lift on landing but that increases DRAG on the airship, requiring more power to maintain airspeed. With no source of power, a heavy glider drops like a rock. I built many model gliders and powered models before my Dad and I built a Lancair Special 320 (Hexel Honeycomb composite.) The thing was a flying brick and had a big motor (Lycoming 320.) We had to sell the aircraft because we were not experienced enough to fly such a high powered plane with little wings. The only way a heavy glider can develop the necessary speed to achieve that glide ratio is to take a steeper glide slope and then level off until DRAG slows it down and then it will stall. If that wasnt the case, you could theoretically build tiny gliders to carry huge loads. This is not possible! Only POWERED flight can maintain speed of a heavy object on a small wing surface at optimal glide ratio. As soon as drag slows it down, a heavy glider will stall. Into the trees.....
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Great posts by BASE104 and Chainsaw. I snoop around the BASE website and forum a little and have been seeing video of "tracking suits." These must have a greatly reduced glide ratio, so I'm wondering what the appeal is. Maybe for regular BASE jumping, they allow the jumper to get away from the wall better for a safer release? In one vid, though, the guy was doing straight up proximity flying. Anyway, just wondering about this development and where it stands in the progression of design and performance.
BAd
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The guy above
climber
Across the pond
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The glide ratio discussion here isnt making sense. Sure the glide ratio for a heavier wingload is the same as for a light load as long as the aircraft flys at a higher speed. But without POWER to maintain speed...
The POWER used for gliding is gravity (in the form of kinetic and potential energy) and drag (with judicious use of attitude and angle of attack).
The one limitation here is that gravity is not a particularly strong force, so that for very extreme examples of very high wingloading the amount of time and distance needed to accelerate to the right velocity to achieve best glide would be massive, but once in a steady state the L/D of an extremly heavy glider would be exactly the same as that of one very light.
The reason you don't have small gliders with large payloads is that since we know a higher wingloading requires a higher airspeed, and higher airspeed also means a higher sink rate, it could get interesting landing a glider that is doing, let's say 60mph vertically at touch down, let alone that it would need thermals of upwards those 60mph to be able to climb, and that it somehow needs to get airborne and to altitude for a start.
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The guy above
climber
Across the pond
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Tracking is the free-climbing version of flying in Base, Bad Climber. Whereas wingsuiting is your aid climbing, and the people jumping low stuff is your bouldering. Those that go tracking with no tracking suits (slick) are our version of the guys who free climb with no chalk, barefoot.
All of them require different skillsets, but tracking could be said is the purest as it's you just flying your body. The arrival of the one piece suits is muddling the waters a little, but it still requires you to be a good tracker. If you are not flying your body properly even in a one piece suit you'll be falling straight down and not going anywhere.
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Alex Baker
climber
Portland
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Just curious and don't know where else to ask:
If one dives a modern wingsuit and aggressively flares, can they (temporarily) bring their sink rate to zero?
Can anyone fly wingsuits backwards (feet first)?
Is it possible to do a flat spin in a wingsuit?
Is there any yaw control?
What is the lowest steady state sink rate practically achievable in a wingsuit?
Do you move your legs forward or backwards to flare a wingsuit? I'm curious to know whether legs act more like an elevator or flaps.
AB
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Alex Baker
climber
Portland
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I'm curious about sink rate.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Alex Baker, you funny, but not a gud troll. Pity I gave away my aerodynamics books cause
I know you be jonesing for 'em. First thing you gotta lern about is the 'stagnation point',
both aerodynamically and as concerns intardnet forums.
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The guy above
climber
Across the pond
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If one dives a modern wingsuit and aggressively flares, can they (temporarily) bring their sink rate to zero?
Bringing the sink rate momentarily to zero is easily doable with the right suits and skills. You can actually get a climb if you know what you are doing in a wingsuit, some people have achieved altitude gains in excess of 200ft.
Can anyone fly wingsuits backwards (feet first)?
Probably not. Maybe if someone is so inclined could dedicate a large amount of time to work it out, but it suspect the suit's design wouldn;t allow for it.
Is it possible to do a flat spin in a wingsuit?
Yeah. Intentionally and in control is a rather advance manouver. Unintentionally is easy to achieve and somewhat common with newer jumpers in suits too big or advanced for them :-) Scary thing to happen, a friend of mine ended up bleeding through the forehead's pores from the high g's his suit put him through in a flat spin.
Is there any yaw control?
Yes. It's possible to get yaw movement by bending your spine/body, or deflecting arm and leg wings in different directions to achieve yawing without roll
What is the lowest steady state sink rate practically achievable in a wingsuit?
Depends on suit, pilot, and weight, but mid-20's in a big suit with a pilot that knows what he's doing is probably the lowest you can get SS
Do you move your legs forward or backwards to flare a wingsuit? I'm curious to know whether legs act more like an elevator or flaps.
I'm not sure how i do it to be honest! Ha, ha. I just increase the angle of attack smoothly being careful not to stall the suit. What i do in my head, i relax the chest a little, push the arm wings down, bring the shoulders down, and push with my toes/feet. Can't say for sure what's happening when watching from the outside though.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Anyone here have and educated guess as to how fast this wingsuiter was traveling upon impact?
I've stepped off a motorcycle near 100 mph and only broke a collarbone (wearing full race gear) but did not hit stationary object.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Tracking is a common skydiving technique. You turn around, dip your head, put your arms at your sides and your feet together, and you will get up to a good 50 mph horizontal within 2 seconds.
If you ever watch a big skydiving formation, you see them break and track apart at the end of the skydive.
Before suits, in old time BASE, that is exactly what we did on high objects. You don't get much movement until the 5th or 6th second, and by the 10th second you are hauling ass away from the wall. It isn't used on 500 foot bridges, or other objects that require a short delay.
You wouldn't believe how far you can get from El Cap if you do a half decent track.
They have "tracking suits" in BASE. I've never used one. They aren't like wingsuits. Even tracking, though, is a form of gliding. You might be falling at a rate of 100mph, but with a good track, you can absolutely haul ass after a few seconds. I used to track off of Half Dome, in the old days, and I could get out past the Bushido Buttress, 500 feet or so away from the wall.
You can take a longer delay on Half Dome. With El Cap, you have to open at El Cap tower just to clear the trees and make it to the meadow. I can't imagine how fun it would be to wingsuit El Cap. I know that the monkeys are doing it.
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chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
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Hey the guy from above. Great replies. I thought alot about what you said regarding gravity as the source of thrust and drag. Makes sense. Sounds like you fly alot. Were you a friend of Fernandos? I have avoided mentioning him previously out of respect, but if you knew him, Id like to talk about what happened. We were very close.
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Sula
Trad climber
Pennsylvania
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... educated guess as to how fast this wingsuiter was traveling upon impact? WB's early post (#4 in this thread) says "over 90 mph".
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Super interesting posts. Not surprising that there's so much to learn about this sport. I just can't imagine the nerve it takes for the extreme lines...just like I can't imagine soloing hard routes. Alien life forms.
BAd
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Alex Baker
climber
Portland
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Ok, thanks a lot. A couple more questions: Do you get any feedback before impending stall? It's my understanding that most aircraft have pretty obvious warning signs (usually light and mushy controls), and one usually has enough time to gain airspeed before the foils totally stall. Is that the case for a wingsuit?
Also, are stalls easy to reccover from if you have altitude? Fixed wings I think are quite easy (only did it once when I was 16 in a friends Cessna), where paragliders do take a little skill and experience to recover from. Wingsuit?
AB
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chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
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Turbulent airflow develops on top of a wing when the angle of attack is too extreme and or airspeed too slow. Planes have a barometric stall warner that is fed with air from the top leading edge of the airfoil. It literally blows air through an acoustic device that makes a note like a small horn. We test our stall warners by blowing into the hole during preflight checklist. I have never flown a wingsuit. I wonder if the turbulence of airflow on top of the suit is evident to the flyer when stall is reached?
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snakefoot
climber
Nor Cal
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yes.. we can tell when the suit is stalling, it starts to fly sluggish, not as responsive and potato chips around in the air, kinda like a falling leaf.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Pursuits like BASE or free soloing Half Dome are personal, and those who do them are in my mind living their lives. As long as they aren't risking the safety of others, it should be permitted. Even celebrated. That is the mood in Europe, or at least it was back when I was there. It was much more free than here in the U.S., where there are tons of laws intended to protect you from yourself.
Speeding is dangerous for others on the road. That law makes sense. Wingsuits put nobody at risk, other than perhaps rescuers. Rescue types WANT work. They make money and choose to do that work. I remember how broke everyone used to get in the rescue site if there wasn't any work.
Wingsuiters are getting whacked every month in Switzerland during season these days. They don't outlaw it. Adventure isn't regulated like it is here.
They are doing an incredible thing, and their skill is beyond even my comprehension, and I know what it is like to fly your body. These folks are good.
I'm glad that it is permitted, though. It is legal in the U.S. if it is not on NPS land. You can go wingsuit the snot out of Notch Peak if you feel like it.
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Mike Honcho
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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It is a ton of fun, quite addicting in the sense it's hard to get that buzz from most other sports. The only thing that's given my that feeling is before a big open water swim at the beginning of a Triathlon. Super intimidating with all these badasses in freezing cold water waiting to GO!
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The guy above
climber
Across the pond
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Do you get any feedback before impending stall?
Yes, pretty much as Snakefoot explained.
We fly by feel, one of our indicators of airspeed is the wind noise, which everyone tunes into in a different way. I can pretty accurately judge where i am in regards airspeed in the range between going fast, max glide, and nearing stall point by the sound of the wind. If you are coming close to a stall you'll hear it.
Then it's how the suit feels. When you are approaching the stall you feel less pressure in the wings and a lack of response to your inputs. It also becomes somewhat unstable. Basically flies slugish as he said. So by the response we are getting from the suit and how much pressure we feel in the wings when pushing down we get an early warning of any impending stall and a rough indication of our airspeed within our parameters.
Also, are stalls easy to reccover from if you have altitude?
Yes, stalls are non-violent and very forgiving if you have the altitude. Just point the suit to the ground and you are off.
Chainsaw, which Fernando would that be? I knew Fernando Brito but i assume you probably mean Motta?
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scooter
climber
fist clamp
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I watched a guy go in there from the Bosson Glacier in June. He didn't make it though.
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chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
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Man from above, yes I refer to Mota. One of the kindest hardworking cool people I ever knew. He used to be part of my F2 crew. Generous and bold. Fernando made me feel great about my climbing even though he sent grades way harder. I lived with Andres for a while so we chilled with Fernando alot. He helped me build things at the ranch I managed and didnt want to get paid. For Fernando, and my crew, life off the grid was paradissimo. I will never stop missing him. His passing was told to me by another jumper on my crew. Never did get the whole story. Didnt want to really. The thought of him burning in makes me cry. God Dammit! Get the knee Bahhhh, Fernando! Im gonna fire one for you right now!
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