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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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I have a simple ethic relating to all of this. One should never intentionally put up an X rated route when one could bolt it to avoid the X. Ambiguities: the route might not allow anything but X due to terrain considerations; you find yourself committed with no retreat possible and must push on through. This has happened to me a couple of times, and I gave permission for anyone coming later to "fix" it.
Let me be very clear: the climber with clear intent to put up an X when that need not be necessary is an ego driven juvenile and owns nothing vis a vis that route. If someone comes along and corrects the flaw--X, good for them.
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G_Gnome
Boulder climber
Sick Midget Land
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Boy wes, you really misinterpreted what I said. I would never say that the community does not make decisions about chopping retro-bolts (hell, I have done that - I have chopped a whole route), what I said was that you were never going to get a public agreement on how close/far bolts should be from each other and that if you did you wouldn't be happy with the result.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2006 - 05:50pm PT
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So it's basically sounding like the 'community' has a zero-tolerance policy around runouts on sport routes. That someone wishing to put up the sport equivalent of a 'Mega Ramp' on public property should not bother and join Reardon's army of One.
And, Greg, surely you're not claiming you don't know about Ignorant Bliss? It is unlikely to remain solitary for long. And are there no longer multipitch routes with runouts in Potrero?
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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well, if it has a runout on it, I wouldn't even call it a sport route. more of a bolted trad climb. Which if you did top down is no longer 'traditional.' which makes it contrived and silly.
yes.
very silly.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Are you listening at all healyje? Go re-read what Russ said.
The community has tons of respect for runout face routes that were put in GROUND UP.
I don't think many have respect for those who toprope, figure out the moves, then create artificial runouts for the lead. Natural runouts (for instance easy sections on hard routes) are not the issue. And like I said, nearly every route in question on this sort of issue was done ground-up.
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ground_up
Trad climber
portland, or.
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Russ is making the most sense ...imho
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2006 - 06:41pm PT
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Greg,
I am listening and I did hear what Russ said. I'm not trying to make a run at 400 here but rather just try to hone down some of this stuff in my mind. For me the issue is one of the role of risk and risk management skills in climbing in general. As a devout sport luddite it interesting to hear it fairly conclusively and authoritatively stated that for all practical purposes that sport climbing by definition is meant to be synonymous with 'safe-climbing'. That from the posts here it is also clear if someone wants to build the sport equivalent of a single or multi-pitch 'Mega Ramp' then that will be viewed derisively by the community and likely retrobolted to eliminate runouts if it is in an easily accessible location.
For me that 'safe-climbing' mantra and development is what is responsible for the majority of the growth in the number of people who identify themselves as climbers. Again, I know my views stretch out to the extreme here, but Russ' eplanation that 'we can't afford them because now a days there are too many climbers and not enough rock' is clearly a symptom of that growth. I simply don't see that growth as a positive thing at all given the outcome Russ points out and it will be interesting over the next twenty years to see how the sport develops, how the population stats evolve, and what the trends in access and land management will look like as this all rolls forward. I find it interesting that Laurel Knob is only being debuted with stringent restrictions given it looks to for all practical purposes has the potential to be a sport climbers wet dream. All interesting...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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The vast majority of my routes are well protected. Indeed some have drawn criticism for being over-protected.
But then there are also routes like Iron Messiah which on its first (non-crux) pitch is a tad sporty (25m, 5 drilled angles).
Not too many complaints.
But just last night I was talking about its final pitch.
On the FA I just ran it out 25m on easy face and then labeled the pitch 5.4X on the topo.
Subsequently the X was often misinterpreted and before using a harder but far better protected alternative they scan the slab and then later come moaning to me about "not seeing the bolt".
Pussies.
I could go on about numerous other routes. Like in Snow Canyon on the ground up 10 pitch route where after several runouts I later returned, added a bolt to one and left another spicy.
Or the appropriately named Full Metal Jockstrap where the bolts protect the hardest moves but on one pitch the gaps between increase after about a half dozen.
I was accused of making a trap, but only a fool assumes that all routes are safe and knowledge beforehand has no value.
My point is that, while consistent implementation of forced runouts is irresponsible, to say that we should have none at all is even worse.
This is climbing you pussilanimus poseurs. If you can't tolerate any risk at all take up bowling. You can get cool shirts.
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pc
climber
East of Seattle
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Healyje wrote "...That from the posts here it is also clear if someone wants to build the sport equivalent of a single or multi-pitch 'Mega Ramp' then that will be viewed derisively by the community and likely retrobolted to eliminate runouts if it is in an easily accessible location."
My take is "yes" if it's on public land, "no" if it's on one's own land like the Mega Ramp described in the original article.
and assuming it's a rap job.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
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heal is just working a thought experiment. no big.
it is some sickly middle ground Heal. yes, socialist. Yes, risk management at the individual level.
Your analogy to the Mega Ramp is a good one. And yes, that could be a different game to play by, but Russ is right, the next guy with or without a guidebook doesn't have the same advantage as someone that has worked the route or previewed it. But if that is the game that is created, there is no absolute metaphysical realm to appeal to to make it a valid way of doing things.
I think the appeal to tradition in this sense is the best one and the right-headed way to approach whether that game is a good one to play. Maybe in the future that will change, but not likely.
Personally, I'd be willing to chop (and camo the holes) a route that went in top down that had deliberately dangerous (high risk of ledge or ground) run outs.
That still leaves a lot of middle ground that you may not get straight in your mind as the rules to applicability shift based on what is valued at a inter or even intra personal level.
try making a matrix and list the values on one side with arguments against on the other side.
post what you come up with.
good thread actually, thx mang.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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http://carolinaclimbers.org/cpg135/displayimage.php?album=lastup&cat=0&pos=4
I don't think I'd call laurel knob a sport climber's wet dream. A cool hunk of rock for sure, but most of it looks sub vertical, slabby. Did you call it that because it looks crack free?
Locker style EDIT: here's the new link, thanks.
Russ style EDIT: nice to meet you too russ. yeah, i should have come up with a cleverer nickname. What can I say, Lambone was already taken.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Wuss christ,
I don't lack the ability to read your posts.
Merely the interest.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2006 - 07:59pm PT
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Caught - cool shot, looks like about five crags. What's the deal with the other 3 or 4 I wonder...
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Paris Girl in "Eldo" comes to my mind. This was a early "sport route" and should be updated (rebolted in my opinion.
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jack herer
climber
veneta, or
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Piton Ron-
You mention Snow Canyon, is this located near Santa Clara? I was working on the bullcomplex fire down there and our camp was at a Snow Canyon middle school, there where some impressive looking walls on the road out to gunlock, is this what your talking about?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jack,
it is indeed.
An interesting area. Cracks AND face.
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