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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 29, 2016 - 09:25am PT
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Hi gang, seems like all the packs marketed for skiing top out at about 45L capacity.
What do other folks do for 3-5 day all-weather ski touring? I know I can survive with close to nothing, but I'm looking for something that is a reasonable compromise of comfort and simplicity to hold all the crap and just cinch down the pack to have the volume efficiently managed. I don't need to optimize for ski performance (which would dictate smaller volume and cutting out anything non-essential), but I should be able to get down icy passes without dying.
An example of what I would want to carry as the fullest load:
 rope & alpine rack, rock shoes
crampons & two light ice axes
shovel, probe
tent and bulky winter sleeping bag & bulky ground pad (or two)
way to easily attach skis in A-frame where they remain stable (no swinging around)
a few bulky mid layers, gloves, hats, etc.
real food (i.e. not just bars or a loaf of bread and hunk of cheese) & basic cooking gear
What do other folks do? I've figured out it's nicer to have a bigger pack cinched down rather than a smaller pack with stuff bulging out of the collar at the top or other things hanging outside with improvised straps.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Sep 29, 2016 - 10:06am PT
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This is an "I like this thread already" bump. I will add three items tho.
1) I bump up the fat content of what I bring as food in cold conditions.
2) I am really picky about the stuff sacks I use to keep my extra clothes in. I don't want anything getting wet (even from my wet clothing). Also, I have a separate set of dry camp clothing. I probably bring too much extra clothing, but I find I sweat tons even in winter so my strategy has been to change into dry stuff as soon as I stop moving around. Which brings me to my next point...
3) 45L packs are really tight for me except for 3 day trips. I have an down exped pad that works great (in my 50's and like to be warm) but man is it bulky. Most of my warm stuff is bulky which is a problem because I'm not a small guy.
I've never used one, but you might want to consider a pulk to get to a "base camp". Then go out and do what you want!
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Sep 29, 2016 - 10:33am PT
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Scott needs, no, Scott must get a new ski touring pack. I went ski touring with Scott last winter and no man should have to ski with Trader Joe's bags hanging off his pack and a fanny pack around his waist. Hell I almost started a Go Fund Me page for Scott when I returned home. Please help Scott pick a pack that will fit EVERYTHING he needs inside the pack and not outside.
Scott, lets climb soon.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Sep 29, 2016 - 10:42am PT
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I'll drop it after this, but the pulk thing has interested me for a number of years. Here is an example in video. The two rods connecting the skier to the pulk are relatively stiff to keep the pulk from rear ending the guy. The whole point is that you can carry a sh#t load of stuff with them, on relatively low angle terrain. I think the low angle point is key.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
This would definitely be a great setup for ski touring the Mt. Lassen area.
Edit; As far as packs are concerned, you may want to check out McHale Alpine packs. Not cheap, but well made custom packs.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 29, 2016 - 10:57am PT
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I once did a 5-day snowshoe backpacking trip with 2 other guys, in the middle of a storm, and we had a big sled like that because we all had giant synthetic sleeping bags and probably too much other stuff. First guy broke trail (sinking up to knees/thighs with big snowshoes), second guy stepped in the alternate spots to smooth out the channel, and third guy dragged the sled. We rotated jobs periodically.
I was good friends with those guys, but literally didn't talk to them for a year after that trip! We all got on each other's nerves pretty badly, and we had very different expectations (aggro peak-bagging vs tent chillin') that made for unnecessary frustrations.
That experience turned me off to the idea of sled dragging unless it's absolutely necessary to get gear to a base camp. But I shouldn't need that for 3-5 day Sierra trips and I don't have enough time to do longer stuff.
Batrock, you had me snort laughing and in tears remembering the stuff hanging off of me :)
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Sep 29, 2016 - 11:03am PT
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The idea I had in mind was small pulks, maybe one for each person. For the big sled, you need dogs, lol. But I kept going to areas steep enough that I did NOT want to be dragging a pulk around. So I never did test it out. Maybe this Spring I'll try. Gotta fix the body first.
Ok, no moe sleds ;)
Sounds like an epic trip to me tho...
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The Lisa
Trad climber
Da Bronx, NY
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Sep 29, 2016 - 11:58am PT
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Stuff hanging off the sides interferes with skiing, not fun.
I have only done basecamp tours where I use a 60L pack for low angle approach to set up camp, then use a smaller ski pack for touring. A sled would work just as well for this and you can drag lots of luxuries that way :)
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Sep 29, 2016 - 12:04pm PT
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so your saying it could be good OW training
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Sep 29, 2016 - 01:28pm PT
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Scott, I typically ski with a 45 li BD Avalung (weighs 4.5 lbs), which is good for up to 3 day carrying capacity for touring. For longer tours I've been using a Gregory Makalu Pro pack, which expands beyond 60 li., carries well, and weighs 5.5 lbs empty. Skiing with a loaded big pack, is not a lot of fun, btw.
Recently I acquired a Cold Cold World Chaos pack, 66li. + capacity, and weighs 3 lb. 12 oz. I haven't tried it in winter yet, but I think this will be my go to pack now for longer tours - it certainly will hold more than I can reasonably carry. The only thing I wish the Chaos had is an outside pocket for a shovel. Will probably end up sewing a flap to hold a shovel in place. Extremely well designed pack, made in the US, and very reasonably priced.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Sep 29, 2016 - 01:29pm PT
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I did very well last winter in my light 35 degree bag with good thermal clothing and a light REI bivi sack. (all inside a 4 season tent in a storm)
The lightweight layering worked very well. I went to bed soaked and by morning my clothes and the inside of the fiber-fill summer bag was dry. Of course the outside and the bivy sack were wet. It was only one night but the light gear could have been air dried in a couple of hours.
I have been working on this sleep layering for years and I am getting rid of my zero degree sleeping bags.
I also use an insulated thick backpacking airmatress which works great on snow.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Sep 29, 2016 - 01:42pm PT
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Scott.... I can just see you with Trader Joe bags...
One of the best pieces of gear I ever bought was a McHale Pack.... go and talk to him, heck maybe he is still lurking on ST .... His packs are not cheap but they will out last 4 Northface ones. I still use mine 20 years later. It can hold 100 lbs, and can strip all the way down to a fanny pack that clips on to a harness.... he will make just what you need.
http://www.mchalepacks.com/index.htm
now pray for snow.
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ruppell
climber
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Sep 29, 2016 - 05:38pm PT
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Nice choice Crankster
The Osprey Variant is a bad ass pack. It's contours to the body better than any other pack I've ever owned. I'm using a Mutant now which I like a little better but it's more of an alpine rock pack than a ski tour pack.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Sep 29, 2016 - 05:59pm PT
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No mention yet of a two-person winter season tent.
Any recommendations?
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Edge
Trad climber
Betwixt and Between Nederland & Boulder, CO
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Sep 29, 2016 - 06:24pm PT
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For years I had used a 50L Wild Things alpine pack that I had bought directly from the owner/ seamstress/wife of the Wild Man of North Conway himself, John Bouchard. He was running an errand when I stopped into a yard sale at their original factory at their home on West Side Road. The pack looked new despite John using it on a recent expedition to South America, and Titoune asked $25 for it which I paid on the spot. When John pulled in a few minutes later, he was a bit pissed at her price.
I found that pack to be quite adequate for years of winter trips, including 3 separate week long trips into Katahdin in Northern Maine. We would carry food, camping gear, full ice and alpine gear for the week with smart packing. Katahdin logistics dictated that we pull them on homemade sleds the first day, 12 miles, then carry them the final three miles on day two, pulling an empty sled.
That pack died a quit death a while ago, and I used an old 90 +15 Lowe Expedition pack for the last couple years, but that was ungodly heavy and overkill.
Based on the Taco gear reviews, I just bought the Black Diamond Mission 50, and so far it is a worthy replacement for my old Wild Things with several improvements. It's more comfy and has better features for how I will use it now. One small downside is that it does not have a removable insulated pad as a support, but that's a feature that I rarely used over the years.
http://www.usoutdoor.com/black-diamond/black-diamond-mission-50-pack/?gclid=CNLJ6MqB3s4CFQU0aQodN_QPvw
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Sep 29, 2016 - 06:42pm PT
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Thanks, Crankster. Like everything about them but the color. I really value the earth tones when I'm camping in the great wide open.
I just don't like sticking out like a neon light. But apparently that's just me. Go figure.
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Hoots
climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Sep 29, 2016 - 08:02pm PT
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I have been drinking the Cilogear Kool-Aid for a while now, but the lack of shoulder padding in the higher volume packs has been leaving me wanting more, and with other companies making light packs that have more features than just a simple top loading pack, I did a lot of looking.
I bought a Mountain Hardwear South Col 70L and it has been a pretty strong contender. Did approximately 25 days of overnight ski touring this spring with it, and I like it. Waterproof construction, dedicated avy gear pocket, crampon pouch, weighs in at 3.5 lbs.
Let the snow fly!
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Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
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Sep 30, 2016 - 12:13am PT
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THE most important thing is a good fit, specifically the right torso length and a good, no-BS shoulder strap design.
Cold Cold World Chernobyl or Chaos. If you want a shovel pocket or other minor additions or subtractions ask Randy and he'll probably fix you up. No pack on the market is more solid for the weight and the suspension system, though simple, works extremely well (though less so in hot weather).
Randy's prices make McHale's (admittedly top-quality) stuff look like less than ideal value, and a side by side comparison with the Cilo stuff shows just how godawful Cilo's design and execution is.
Another great alternative is Tuttle Outdoor Equipment. Like CCW it's absolutely top quality stuff made by a US-based climber who knows what actually works in the field, for extremely reasonable prices.
Everything good said above about CCW can also be said of TOE. Same for McHale, but at a huge price premium. All three will do customizations for specific needs.
Value: CCW = TOE > McHale >> Cilogear
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2016 - 12:30am PT
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Many great suggestions folks, turning up stuff I hadn't seen on my own.
Norman, how easy is it to re-stuff the back liner pad that doubles as ground pad after you take it out of the Cold Cold World pack? Do you have to empty the pack to do it?
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Sep 30, 2016 - 06:10am PT
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North Face Banshee 65- 3lb. 10 oz.
Super comfortable, sits tight to the body for movement.
Arc'teryx Alpha 30 ltr.- 1lb. 8 oz.
Water proof.
I prepack all my climbing gear, snacks and all (ready to climb) in the 30 ltr. which happens to slide perfectly into the main compartment of the Banshee. This eliminates the time consuming rummage sale, gear sort at base camp.
There is plenty of room left for all the other gear in the Banshee and the two packs combined, weigh less than many 65 liter packs
I recently used this system at Whitney (East Buttress). It was so nice to pull the Arc'teryx out at 5am on climb day and throw it on.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2016 - 09:38am PT
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Hey gang, I suppose I would't use all of that stuff in a typical trip (e.g. maybe no climbing gear when I have a synthetic bag and double ground pads, but maybe yes? depends on partners and variability of the weather and duration of the trip), but it's not out of the question and I wanted this to be by biggest pack to cover any conceivable adventure that fits in my present life. I don't want to be the Imelda Marcos of backpack collectors.
I pulled the trigger on the Cool Cool World Chaos pack this morning- getting a fabric change to red to make it easier for my companions to look back and spot me wheezing and coughing up a lung when they are already at the top of a ridge. I asked about the shovel flap/pouch, and he wasn't inclined to make that modification (and I wasn't certain enough that I want it to press the issue with a waive of cash).
Thanks for all the feedback. I'll be sure to report back after the winter on how it works out.
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Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
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Sep 30, 2016 - 09:51am PT
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Norman, how easy is it to re-stuff the back liner pad that doubles as ground pad after you take it out of the Cold Cold World pack? Do you have to empty the pack to do it?
It's a lot easier to get the pad in and out if the pack is relatively empty. The pad is a reasonably snug fit into its pocket. But if it's too hard to get in and out you can shave a few mm off one side of the pad with a single edge razor blade and straightedge.
On my Valdez, that narrow but 3/4-length pad is exactly 90 grams, BTW.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Sep 30, 2016 - 01:49pm PT
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Rack of doubles
Slings
Harness
Climbing shoes
Chalk bag
Helmet
Misc associated gear
Total- 25 liters
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hooblie
climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
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Sep 30, 2016 - 04:41pm PT
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if this would be too much lashed to your new pack, i don't know what to saythe jensen pack was a perfect match what with the zippered access on the anterior side.
no sweat and no soak seat, and in a lot of terrain better behaved than a puppy
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2016 - 06:37pm PT
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I wouldn't need it or want it with skis, but a little turtle-shell sled like that would be awesome for snowshoe trips to get down hills quickly and have fun sliding.
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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Sep 30, 2016 - 06:45pm PT
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NA a 3 to 5 day backcountry ski tour? Good god man do you know how to suffer? I typically go light as I can with a plastic credit card these days. All those "most miserable" nights and morning wake ups realigned my thinking about backcountry winter travel :^)
Anyway Nut all I can say you'll need a quiver of packs just like skis, it's a specialized world bro. Having a pack that is designed for skiing is a good thing for comfort and for access to skins, avy gear etc. Change overs are time killers, specialized gear can help with efficiency in the mountains.
Pasadena eh? My old stomping grounds, started at PCC in 1969 and went north, drop me a PM if you find yourself in the Tahoe Sierra this winter, we can compare notes when roaming about....
Charlie D.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2016 - 11:00pm PT
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may there be snow and may it be good.
Charlie, I'll keep you in mind for this winter if I end up with a free weekend when Batrock is already booked up. I'm jonesin' for the mountains in any season, cant wait to immerse myself in the immensity and majesty of it all again.
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Ezra Ellis
Trad climber
North wet, and Da souf
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+1 for cold cold world,
Rugged simple, bomber, and no gimmicks,
Best out there imho!!!
Made in the USA by a climber!
Enough Said!
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bobbiew
Social climber
Albany,NY
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Oct 11, 2016 - 03:09pm PT
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Im probably not an expert like many of you but for a backpack I am partial the the Outdoor Master 50L. Its cheap, light and strong. I cannot wait for ski season!
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Oct 11, 2016 - 03:38pm PT
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Its cheap, light and strong.
Nice first post, recommending a zippered book bag for a back country ski trip
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splitclimber
climber
Sonoma County
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Oct 11, 2016 - 05:39pm PT
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Hoots has good recommendations.
I use an osprey aether 70, mostly because I got it on sale, it has a snowboard carry and can still compress down when day touring from basecamp. I do like that I can fit most stuff in the pack and not hang sh#t off it.
I've found that what is most important is that the pack will comfortably carry the load. some of the smaller 50l packs may not have enough padding if you really load it up in mid-winter and bringing all the sharp sh#t, especially when you need to put the skis/board on the pack too, which is never fun.
Contractor - I like your system. I'd rather tour with a smaller pack, but haven't worked out a two pack system to efficiently do it.
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Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
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Oct 12, 2016 - 07:54am PT
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I've got nothing against Osprey stuff — it's very well-designed and one of the best packs I ever had was one of the old US-made Osprey alpine packs.
But for the same money or less than an Aether 70, if you want a bigger pack with an internal frame, you could get an impeccably-constructed pack with any customizations you might want, made to the highest standard by a climber and guide right here in the USA: Tuttle Outdoor Equipment Conness.
Just another alternative.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Oct 12, 2016 - 08:17am PT
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Hey gang, I suppose I would't use all of that stuff . . . . . . I wanted this to be by biggest pack to cover any conceivable adventure that fits in my present life. I don't want to be the Imelda Marcos of backpack collectors.
I pulled the trigger on the Cool Cool World Chaos pack this morning- getting a fabric change to red to make it easier for my companions to look back and spot me wheezing and coughing up a lung when they are already at the top of a ridge. I asked about the shovel flap/pouch, and he wasn't inclined to make that modification (and I wasn't certain enough that I want it to press the issue with a waive of cash).
Thanks for all the feedback. I'll be sure to report back after the winter on how it works out.
the pack must be due any day now? I'm wondering about the turn around time 9/30 was the post date for the quote above. I hope you post your 1st impressions, before and after a full try out.
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