Making Humans an Interplanetary Species

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Messages 1 - 158 of total 158 in this topic
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 27, 2016 - 01:41pm PT
Elon Musk just finished his presentation which disclosed SpaceX's Mars planetary mission architecture.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

The new Interplanetary Transportation Vehicle literally DWARFS the ol Apollo V rocket.
brotherbbock

climber
Alta Loma, CA
Sep 27, 2016 - 02:20pm PT
That sh#t is gonna blow up.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 27, 2016 - 02:22pm PT
I hope his ego will fit into that rig.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Sep 27, 2016 - 03:18pm PT
I haven't even looked at the video and Reilly's post is already cracking me up.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Sep 27, 2016 - 03:19pm PT
Humans in their current state don't deserve to go interplanetary. Not when you have fukin Donald j drumpf as a representative of the species
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
Sep 27, 2016 - 03:30pm PT
Deep Cryo Fart Powered Rockets!
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Sep 27, 2016 - 04:09pm PT
I'd rather be in this baby, cruising the cosmos!


Courtesy of coupled differential equations
John M

climber
Sep 27, 2016 - 04:30pm PT
I hadn't really been paying attention to Elon Musk, but this video is fascinating. The first 20 minutes or so is just music. Don't know why, but once he starts his presentation the story is compelling. His accomplishments are astounding. 2/3rds of the way through the video.

Looking at his background. If its true he started with 28,000 dollars from his father after getting a BS in physics from Penn and only staying 2 days at Stanford for his PHD, and started his various companies, then that is quite remarkable.

10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Sep 27, 2016 - 05:41pm PT
I hope his ego will fit into that rig

Gone rape me a planet. Its my destiny and the very best my species can do.


We are not done f*#king up this planet yet, and he wants to f*#k up another one.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 27, 2016 - 05:48pm PT
tfpu, bdc.
I've been following along as well.


It IS going to happen. Lucky future!
WBraun

climber
Sep 27, 2016 - 05:54pm PT
All living entities already have the capabilities to travel anywhere both in the entire material manifestation and the spiritual manifestation.

There is no way you can "make" this as it's already permanently built into every living being.

Your attempt is artificial and results in ultimate failure due to being completely clueless to consciousness itself ......


dhayan

climber
culver city, ca
Sep 27, 2016 - 05:55pm PT
Musk is just another dangerous confused idiot...
limpingcrab

Trad climber
the middle of CA
Sep 27, 2016 - 06:49pm PT
http://www.iflscience.com/space/elon-musk-reveals-plan-to-send-one-million-people-to-colonize-mars/all/

Here's a summary.

Like him or not, Elon will be in history books.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Sep 27, 2016 - 06:58pm PT
Jihn M writes:

"If its true he started with 28,000 dollars from his father..."




28 Grand, and FIVE BILLION DOLLARS in Government subsidies!

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-musk-subsidies-20150531-story.html

"Tesla Motors Inc., SolarCity Corp. and Space Exploration Technologies Corp., known as SpaceX, together have benefited from an estimated $4.9 billion in government support..."



He's not stealing sawdust. He's stealing the wheelbarrows.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Sep 27, 2016 - 08:02pm PT
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Sep 27, 2016 - 09:21pm PT

Musk is just another dangerous confused idiot...

Not sure about that, but he is a narcissist.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 27, 2016 - 09:31pm PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

He must be a rock climber, too.

For those not wishing to watch the presentation he made at the International Aerospace Congress, here's a link to a written version.

http://www.spaceflightinsider.com/organizations/space-exploration-technologies/elon-musk-shows-off-interplanetary-transport-system/
Mark Force

Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
Sep 27, 2016 - 10:28pm PT
His vision is small and petty compared to having the vision of making what we have here and now richly sustainable - that is the big vision.
Bushman

climber
The state of quantum flux
Sep 27, 2016 - 10:45pm PT
Musk is a visionary who's put all of himself and everything he's got into many projects, most of which are breaking new ground in science and technology. The inspiration he brings to so many is worth every investment dollar, and the setbacks which are costly and many, are a small price to pay for the seeds of innovation and discovery that are being planted in the minds of generations to come. Say what you will about the man, but the dream of human exploration and the evolutionary advancement of our species are alive and proliferating in he and people like him.

Or you can say, "Don't waste ma tax payer money on all that space man voodoo Martian crap! Ol' Donald's gonna set all you mother truckers straight, why I'm so mad, I'm mad as hell and I don't know why! My neighbor's mad and that makes me mad too, and I still don't know why! My brother died in a boating accident, he coulda swam with two hands and he wouldn't let go of that beer, and then the prop got 'im, damn it cut off his damn head an dammit, he saved that beer! We got that Schlitz can bronzed an mounted on his casket the way he woulda wanted god dammit an am so mad I cai'nt see straight now! God dammit!! Why do I need a background check to get me a gun an a pressure cooker?"
john hansen

climber
Sep 27, 2016 - 10:54pm PT
I wonder if there are any microbes we could send to Mars that would start producing oxygen . not sure how well the gravity could keep the atmosphere ..

Is it possible for the gravitational field of Mars to hold any created atmosphere enough to make human life possible out doors ? Would it be like the summit of Everest?

Or would we be perpetually indoors relying on a contained enviromment.

McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Sep 28, 2016 - 12:02am PT
I like Musk's mentioning of 'forcing functions'. It reminds me of Messner talking about climbing 'past the cramp point' back in the 70s. How far we've come!

John Hansen, your question makes me see we live in a contained atmosphere here. It's just a matter of scale. Maybe caverns will be discovered to seal off and live in.
JimT

climber
Munich
Sep 28, 2016 - 12:44am PT
We sent ships and people to colonise America, look how well that turned out.
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Sep 28, 2016 - 03:40am PT

I'm to bruised to bother
Brother



Choose The second by default Blame it On Aliens... Well one alien goes by code , itz binary
It goes by AyeAyi.
Or you can say, "Don't waste ma tax payer money on all that space man voodoo Martian crap! Ol' Donald's gonna set all you mother truckers straight, why I'm so mad, I'm mad as hell and I don't know why! My neighbor's mad and that makes me mad too, and I still don't know why! My brother died in a boating accident, he coulda swam with two hands and he wouldn't let go of that beer, and the then prop got 'im, damn it cut off his damn head an dammit, he saved that beer! We got that Schlitz can bronzed an mounted on his casket the way he woulda wanted god dammit an am so mad I cai'nt see straight now! God dammit!! Why do I need a background check to get me a gun an a pressure cooker?

that describes my lunatic neighbor!
Watch your kids n' cats,
don't Like the look of cats, just certain ones,
Iay n ayi, n' I, likes to swing em by the tail every chance I get
Like this
Don't know why You are mad ? - you don't live next door.( Do You.)
That guy, my Hext door neighbor -he is a postman
an aging no longer any where near middle class no more
2 kids a Labrador.

Receiver of a 30 year Re-FI, a pool to work his shoulders (lucky guy, trying to pay the taxez)
A white McDonalds junky, with one dead from Herion the other sending it home from
Lost in to military service , strong patriotic 'merican.
With rage issues too, Also.
Thank good he has substances abuse issues, it is all that keeps him lamé.

As for why to be mad as hell so mad that you can't spell square?
Your grand children aren't the parents child. Look you'll see it
Attached , detached - plugged IN, ~ , BORG ~. %#£@x~!* don't tell me
Look they have it in their ears. And glazed over looks aren't even a descriptive anymore
Wake up the human race is slave food for the machine....
Ay aye recruited line up behind the bush
MAN


[Click to View YouTube Video]


No one is going to *Mars *(Expletive!) the technology is not 'our's' we are still reverse engineering stuff if you read between the lines , right Tom?
And yes sorry you are all already harvested if you belive that any thing is ever gonna get outta here alive
(Auespishus that,,,) Auspicious
Que da Doors
Sula

Trad climber
Pennsylvania
Sep 28, 2016 - 05:11am PT
john hansen posted
Would it be like the summit of Everest?
Worse than that. Surface atmospheric pressure on Mars is approximately the same as at an altitude of 100,000' on Earth.

Even if the Mars atmosphere were 100% oxygen, that pressure is far below the minimum necessary to support human life (which is generally reckoned to be the pressure equivalent of something like 40,000').
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Sep 28, 2016 - 07:08am PT
Terraforming a planet is murder on a planetary scale.

Especially if executed with ropes and bolts.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2016 - 07:48am PT
Sending bacteria to Mars won't do it; it takes photosynthetic plants to build an oxygen rich atmosphere. The key to having a breathable atmosphere is increased density to 5 psi or higher, with an approximate 40 % oxygen content. Ang...yeah...there are mountains on Mars: Olympus Mons, which dwarfs Everest.

For me, the major driving force to go to Mars is exploration and the search for evidence of life past, and for life present. Mars was once a warm and wet planet, with conditions similar to those which allowed life to develop in Earth. The combination of adventure, science, and exploration combine an unbeatable combination of drivers.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2016 - 08:18am PT
Although Elon has also released the probable name of his first colonization space ship, "Heart of Gold," I figure that he may be wildly optimistic about his plan. Heart of Gold was a spaceship in the very popular SF novel "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy."

I didn't want to comment or criticize this plan until I gave myself some time to carefully evaluate all the ramifications of his proposal, but after due consideration, find it to be too optimistic w/r to the timeline and the fact it blithely skips over some of the necessary "proof of concept" steps. No doubt a very visionary concept but extremely aggressive of some new technologies yet unproven. The test firing of the prototype Raptor engine was a good landmark step, but the carbon fiber construction needs to be verified by some intermediate design, and on a somewhat smaller scale. OK, get small crew to Mars for proof of concept, then maybe a 15 person staff to begin building the refueling facility and start some base construction. I don't doubt this will ultimately happen, but not in the 10 year timeline he's proposed. There is a joke within the space community referring to "Elon time," which is usually irrationally optimistic.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Sep 28, 2016 - 10:04am PT
Until we demonstrate we can create sustainable human existence on our home planet, it seems silly to try and create it from scratch on a really inhospitable planet.

I support space exploration through unmanned probes. We will learn just as much at this point. All our resources should be focused on trying to prevent a human driven mass extinction on this planet, IMHO.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
Sep 28, 2016 - 10:09am PT
^^^^^A voice of reason. Thank you.

There is wonder and exploration science, useful science, and self-aggrandizing jerk off science......
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Sep 28, 2016 - 10:30am PT
Jebus,

On your point b, I tend agree. Learning to live on a lifeless planet might be good prep for what we will be faced with on earth the way we are going ;-)

https://voolas.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/tumblr_log72cUxYU1qci4ejo1_500.gif
c wilmot

climber
Sep 28, 2016 - 10:49am PT
The only reason the wealthy elite want to go to mars is to exploit resources for profit. How many locations on earth has America already eagle f"""" for profit? Let's not rape mars
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Sep 28, 2016 - 10:52am PT
DMT, please give me the list of currently existing life forms discovered so far on Mars. Until you can do that, you are calling the kettle black.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2016 - 10:54am PT
The Mars Society was founded several years ago in order to promote travel to, and development of the Red Planet.

One of the major concerns of many professional scientists, in addition to space nerds, was setting up a "genetic insurance policy, or savings account," as a hedge against some natural catastrophe or disaster. Think: asteroid impact, such as the dinosaur killer millennia ago. The Mars Society was founded on the campus of the University of Colorado, in Boulder; it just concluded it's 19th annual convention at the Catholic University, in Washington, D.C. It's also about "the science," as well as a noble undertaking demonstrating the best capabilities of mankind. Not to forget--adventure, and being at the spearpoint of a new frontier.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
Sep 28, 2016 - 11:29am PT
I love sci-fi.

But...

It ends up laughable when fellow science lovers confuse that passion with their passion for sci-fi.

Going the "We need to develop/settle other planets so we have somewhere to go after we eff up this one" is a non-starter on grounds of science and economics.

The closest reality based scenario we could fuse science, economics, and sci-if to is "Silent Running."

Have fun on that trip. I'll stay here, thanks but no thanks.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Sep 28, 2016 - 12:40pm PT
The thing that concerns me the most is the undercurrent that this "brave new world" will be populated with the elite who can afford the trip, or make "the cut".

A cynical person would say they are trying to escape the gritty reality that is human existence on earth in favor of some imagined utopia populated with the "cream of the crop".
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2016 - 12:43pm PT
Mark-

In times past...Science Fiction morphed into...Science Reality.

From the Dick Tracy comics: "2 way wrist radio," ---> Cell phones.

Jules Verne's "From Earth to Moon," involved a powerful cannon. ---> Saturn V and the Eagle has landed.
limpingcrab

Trad climber
the middle of CA
Sep 28, 2016 - 12:49pm PT
For those of you that say Musk should focus on making life on earth more sustainable, he does that too.

He also started PayPal

Created a video game when he was 12

Founded Tesla Motors

Wants to build a hyperloop between LA and SF

Started the second largest solar company in the US

And a bunch of other stuff.


It's fun to sit back and see what he's capable of and I think creating objectives that seem beyond reach is wonderful. It's like he thinks 100 years ahead of everyone else. Just my opinion.



Oh, and I'm not sure why screwing with a lifeless planet is a problem. Not remotely similar to Europeans colonizing North America, like some people say.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2016 - 12:53pm PT
This idea appeals strongly to my sense of adventure, and I even have my business plan to provide something every frontier culture demands: alcohol. I can manufacture Ethyl Alcohol directly from the Carbon Dioxide atmosphere, passing through Ethylene and then catalytic addition of water across the double bond. Absolutely pure, no adulterants, analytical regent grade alcohol. Maybe I should call it "Martian Mist?" Ship it back to you Earthlings at an enormous profit, since there would be no Federal excise tax imposed.

In response to Limpingcrab's post; we don't even need to steal the land from the natives, either!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 28, 2016 - 12:56pm PT
"Have fun on that trip. I'll stay here, thanks but no thanks."

The Great Mark Force opines.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2016 - 01:17pm PT
I will found an entire industry on Mars! The venture will be called "Atmospheric Chemical Company," since the Carbon Dioxide atmosphere will be the basis of my booze manufacturing, as well as making polyethylene for the structural material requirements in the construction industry.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 28, 2016 - 01:19pm PT
PayPal, now there's something I always wondered how I got along without, and still do.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 28, 2016 - 01:41pm PT
Moosie, a friendly word of advice - SELL NOW!

Read Bob Lutz' piece on Tesla in this month's Road and Track:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a26859/bob-lutz-tesla/

If you don't know who Bob Lutz is read his Wiki bio.

10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Sep 28, 2016 - 02:07pm PT
For those of you that say Musk should focus on making life on earth more sustainable, he does that too.

He also started PayPal

Created a video game when he was 12

Founded Tesla Motors

Wants to build a hyperloop between LA and SF

Started the second largest solar company in the US

And a bunch of other stuff.

#1 I am not sure how PayPal makes life more sustainable on earth.
#2 The vast majority of Americans will never own a Tesla.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Sep 28, 2016 - 02:28pm PT
"#2 The vast majority of Americans will never own a Tesla."


Unless you're one of Romney's 47%, you're paying for one.

Someone else is driving it, though - no doubt some rich guy - but your taxes picked up several of its payments.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 28, 2016 - 02:59pm PT
DMT...

That's just the silliest opinion, you and the great mark force should hook up!!

Edit:

Those are just...

...

42 Raptor engines! For power and redundancy... how do you like them apples!!
limpingcrab

Trad climber
the middle of CA
Sep 28, 2016 - 03:50pm PT
#1 I am not sure how PayPal makes life more sustainable on earth.
#2 The vast majority of Americans will never own a Tesla.
Maybe I worded that weird. I meant he does do a lot of research into sustainability, and also does that other sort of unrelated stuff.

Is that a Belief of yours, that mars is lifeless? I think the assumption is arrogant and thoughtless, myself.

Yes. Would be cool if I was wrong but I'm not holding my breath. I can't think of any reason to think there is life.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2016 - 05:06pm PT
For those who actually viewed the entire presentation by Musk, there were several places where I took exception to his statements. Especially the claims that his ITS could be used to visit the moons of Jupiter and Saturn. The asteroid belt--yes, but the transit time to, say Europa, the 2nd moon of Jupiter, the time would be measured in years from Mars. Europa would be a terrible place to visit, as it's still within the Van Allen Radiation belt of Jupiter; Ganymede and even better, Callisto, have far less ionizing radiation to contend with. Both of these Jovian moons are larger than the planet Mercury, by the way; both have tenuous atmospheres comprised of carbon dioxide, nitrogen, and some oxygen. Visiting Titan, the largest moon of Saturn, is an order of magnitude more difficult than the Jovian moons, and really require more powerful engines with significantly higher exhaust velocities than the methylox combination the transporter utilizes. Nuclear thermal propulsion is the next step, and NASA already developed these engines in the 1970s, only to have the program trashed by Richard Milhous Nixon


Realistically, the next step beyond settling Mars will be mining the asteroid belt, and Musk's ships could accomplish that. The Earthlings, as they will by then be called, won't be the ones to get rich; that fate will befall the Martians. Finding an entire asteroid weighing some billion tonnes of Platinum would be quite a haul. Maybe HFCS and I will share some of our ill gotten gains?

In the meantime, Moosedrool will be managing my Martian Mist distillery....
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Sep 28, 2016 - 06:15pm PT
Maybe I worded that weird. I meant he does do a lot of research into sustainability, and also does that other sort of unrelated stuff.

Limpingcrab,
Do you seriously think that Musk is altruistic?

Like I said up thread, he is a narcissist, and he doesn't care about anybody outside his inner circle.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 28, 2016 - 06:30pm PT
10b... that's just nuts.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2016 - 07:08pm PT
HFCS--

10b needs a stiff shot of my Martian Mist...

;-)
Mark Force

Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
Sep 28, 2016 - 08:12pm PT
It looks like the scientism crowd has let their fantasies over-ride scientific and economic realities.

I love science and sci-if. I'm grown up enough to know the difference.

Just from an economic perspective do you know what the resource costs are associated with making the fantasy of of interplanetary colonization and resource commerce.

Yeah.

We have much more pressing issues to solve here and now.

PS Developing and manufacturing Dick Tracy's gizmo is not really in the same league. Not really an apt comparison. The biggest reason it doesn't work isn't the scientific hurdle it's the economics.

The Great Mark Force opines.

You're a funny guy. Which vision has the most hubris?
Mark Force

Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
Sep 28, 2016 - 10:01pm PT
Oy.

Do a little number crunching. How much is it going to cost to get one person to Mars and back with a basket of rocks...

...what's the return on investment?

...how many people will that take out of hunger and poverty and teach them and empower them to keep that ball rolling?

....how far will go toward developing safe, sustainable energy?

....how far will that go to develop truly sustainable agriculture?

...how far will that go to develop recyclable use of our resources into the future?

These are the crusades for science. Those things will call the deep thinkers among scientists.

It's all fun conjecture and conversation this settling other planets thing. I really am a sucker for sci-if. Love that stuff. I'm not that much of a sucker, though.

Science is so wonderful by itself. Why diminish it with scientism?
Mark Force

Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
Sep 28, 2016 - 10:57pm PT
I'm not past daydreaming and flights of fancy.

Love reading and watching all that sic-fi stuff.

Daydreaming about actual space travel? It's is fun, too.

I like super geeky reading about science and philosophy of the Matrix and the fun technical pondering of how you could make a light saber. What are the intriguing genetic issues of Alien: Prometheus? The intriguing ideas in District 9, Blade Runner, the "what is consciousness?" questions of Ex Machina, the moral and philosophical questions of Minority Report, the mind blowing levels of reality and consciousness of Inception, the is this really real? of Solaris (1972), and the disassociation and isolation of Metropolis.

The binary universe of the Matrix - take that one all the way to is our universe - are all universes a binary simulation? Is reality actually real and binary? Is yin/yang, catabolic/anabolic, acid/base, cell membrane transport, parasympathetic/ sympathetic neuron cell membrane depolarization. Is every chemical and electrical and physical manifestation an interaction between +/-? 0/1? All the actions and dynamics of all things binary? If we could see it would it be flexible? Could we hack it, could we code it?

I even get suckered for the silly play in Fifth Element (a couple of fun ideas in there)..

...Phillip K Dick, Asimov, Wells, Verne, Heinlen, Clarke, Herbert, Bradbury...it's all so rich and wonderful!





"Mr. Harley: Your impatience is quite understandable.
Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it.
Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I'm very sorry... I wish it were otherwise."
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 29, 2016 - 12:06am PT
Mark-

I'm generally not one to tell another person how to spend HIS OWN MONEY. Musk is investing something like tens of millions of his own money annually, simply because of the dream of another world. The financing is mostly from SpaceX profits generated by placing communication satellite constellations in orbit, which is in itself a useful activity. His plan isn't perfect, and has some easily remedied issues. For one thing, he seems to believe that his methane synthesis facility can be solar powered; the radiant flux on Mars is far less than on Earth, so a massive solar array would need to be carried along to accomplish the task. Better a 100Kw Thorium based nuclear powerplant. He hasn't really addressed the need for shelter and other support infrastructure, but that's in the works, we've been told.

For myself--going to Mars is based on my scientific curiosity--to look for evidence that we are not alone in the universe as living creatures. No, I wouldn't enjoy getting killed in the attempt, but would be willing to go in spite off a very high risk factor in the early missions. For I consider the risk to benefit ratio, and what some of these answers represent philosophically to mankind in general. Life is about more than shoveling sh#t here on Earth.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 29, 2016 - 02:51am PT
Life is about more than shoveling sh#t here on Earth.

Actually, shoveling sh#t here on earth is, at a fundamental level, a key foundational aspect of what we like to call 'intelligent life'. Not wallowing in sh#t and how such waste is handled is a hallmark and tell-tale of an emerging or advanced civilization. It's so important people have PhDs in the history of Roman sh#t shoveling.

And, 'shoveling sh#t in space' has continuously vexed our best minds, systems designers and engineers for forty-five years. In fact, space flight is still quietly synonymous with problematic free-floating sh#t. It falls into the category of 'hard problems' and shitting in space is sort of like batteries in computers - neither has really kept pace with the rate of advancement of their parent technologies.

Shitting also represents a significant challenge for Elon - how will sh#t be shoveled on that enormous spacecraft? And, more specifically, how will sh#t be shoveled on Mars? And where to? I mean, really - think it through - at least one of the intrepid Muskovites who is sick of shoveling sh#t here on earth is going to end up shoveling sh#t on Mars because it's an unavoidable aspect of our biology (ugh! it's that word again).

And god forbid a pesky Norovirus decides to hitch a ride on one of those lovely Mars cruises because Elon's spacecraft systems and janitorial capabilities will likely be designed for normal, as opposed to, say vomiting-and-shitting-at-the-same-time or explosive-geyser-projectile shitting. Hell, would existing Martian colonists even let such poor bastards into the colony if their ship did manage to land...?. It's a question mark (I'd personally tell them to keep going and try that Jupiter thing).

And intra- and interstellar space travel? Newborns shitting in weightless conditions? Old and invalid people shitting? Space diapers? Man, better pack a companion cargo freighter with those suckers. And I don't know, but something tells me there will likely be a significant drop-off in oral sex out there in outer space - count me out.

All in all, sh#t is still just so damned nasty and inconvenient to our 'advanced' society that we don't like to speak of it as evidenced in our culture, manners, vernacular and even slang. Crikey, it's so unspeakable I can't even type the word here on supertopo.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
Sep 29, 2016 - 04:37am PT
The poorest of people will spend lot of hard earned $$ on fireworks. They get a brief return on investment.

The Tesla car of little practicality may dazzle a lot of you but no great engineering feat here. Thanks Toyota, Honda and Ford.

The idea that Musk is going to Mars certainly generates of lot of mental fireworks for the ST crowd and Brokedown gets to replays his old ideas as if he they were some of the agents of a successful return.

Upon further analysis for MusK to spend this much money without any foreseeable ROI, I wonder is our tax rate to low? There must be too many fools buying his over priced cars?

Now for an entrepreneur to take his untaxed U.S. earned money to China is taking $$ out of our U.S. pot and to blow resources into space is taking the income/resources out of our group pot also but there is a mental/physical fireworks show that has already begun for the unemployed. Will they be able to sell the products of their thoughts posted on ST?? It is kind of like the poor uneducated whites spending their money on fireworks. BE-DAZZLED


Mark Force

Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
Sep 29, 2016 - 06:33am PT
^^^^Indeed!

Bright and shiny things.....


....squirrell


While our infrastructure decays and children go hungry and homeless and drink poisoned water.


I get the intellectual thrill. Then there are more pressing things to work on.
Sula

Trad climber
Pennsylvania
Sep 29, 2016 - 06:42am PT
Brokedownclimber posted:
going to Mars is based on my scientific curiosity--to look for evidence that we are not alone in the universe as living creatures.

If that's the objective, robotic probes are the obvious way to go. They are dramatically less expensive: for much less than the cost of a brief manned mission to a single place, you could send many dozens of probes to many dozens of different locations all over Mars.

Experience has shown that robotic probes can function for a surprising time and do impressive things. Their capabilities have improved enormously since the first one was sent - a trend that shows no sign of slowing down.

Humans, with their vast life-support needs and awkward preference for a return to Earth after mere months on site, are unfortunately much inferior at the job of exploring Mars.

So an important question is: "If we commit the necessary resources to a manned Mars mission, how much science will we forego?" The rough answer: "A helluva lot."
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 29, 2016 - 07:14am PT
"That act is 100% predatory in the worst way... I'd vote for Trump if it stopped you guys."

Once again, I'm afraid, his true scales are showing.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Sep 29, 2016 - 07:17am PT
10b... that's just nuts.

Well excuse me for having an opinion..
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 29, 2016 - 07:19am PT

From Wright Flyer to Boeing 787.
From ENIAC to Tianhe-2.

And it can easily be pointed out that the world is in much more dire straits
over the time span of those 'achievements'. One achievement mankind is
still no closer to is that of cooperation. MILLIONS in the USA go to bed hungry.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 29, 2016 - 07:38am PT
Variety is the spice of life. Just imagine how bland supertopo would be without cosmic, wb, blu and the great mf!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 29, 2016 - 07:39am PT
Human population is more the problem...


No real need to inflict that on any other planet...
pb

Sport climber
Sonora Ca
Sep 29, 2016 - 07:45am PT
Werner can greet them
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 29, 2016 - 08:40am PT
Many here haven't thought through the impact of a program such as the one Musk is proposing, and instead revert to the hand-wringing sob stories about the money being spent could be otherwise used to provide for the "unemployed masses." How the Hell do you think Musk is accomplishing these tasks? Do his scientists and engineers al work for free? He's putting lots of $$$ into the economy as a result of employment, and those people working for him all have to pay taxes! He also pays lease fees to the U.S. Government for use of Space Launch Complex 39 & 40 at Cape Canaveral. He also pays for a launch pad at Vandenburg AFB in Kalifornia. That crew he employs there is a significant impact on the local economy. Consider how much real estate tax he's paying into the Hawthorne economy. So--you guys want him to abandon his "worthless efforts" and quit paying salaries, taxes, etc., simply because you don't think the money he's spending does any good "Right Here on Earth?"

Narcissistic? It's hard to be humble when you're great. That phrase was frequently used to describe Douglas MacArthur's opinion of himself, too.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 29, 2016 - 08:49am PT
When these do-gooders like Reilly and the Great Mark Force cash in their travel budgets and climbing gear and other sports paraphernalia, also their finer homes, to feed the hungry, then they're worth listening to, not before.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 29, 2016 - 08:58am PT
HFCS, I sold my crack house in Newport Beach last year and paid enough in taxes to
subsidize Elon Musk's nice scam for, like, five minutes! Is he feeding the
poor any more than me on a per capita basis? I highly doubt it.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 29, 2016 - 09:02am PT
Anyone who doesn't expect ecological boom and bust cycles (incl social collapses large and small) to be a normal, natural part of human and post-human history over the next 5,000 years-plus is living in fantasy and probably some science illiteracy.

The trick, and also our strength as a species, is to continue with the Great Civilization Project long-term despite these setbacks (ecological and otherwise). Types like Elon Musk help ensure this succeeds. He's a long-term visionary. The world could use a few more like him. And whats more, by the looks of this thread, the world could use a few tens of million more regular Joes and Janes too, to appreciate the leadership and long-term vision of these innovators/entrepreneurs as well.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
Sep 29, 2016 - 09:05am PT
Science
Atlas of a Billion Stars
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/29/science/milky-way-stars-3-d-map.html?smprod=nytcore-ipad&smid=nytcore-ipad-share

Small Forests Support Climate Stability
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/27/science/private-forests-global-warming.html?smprod=nytcore-ipad&smid=nytcore-ipad-share

Progress Toward Diagnosing CTE in the Living
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/27/sports/football/cte-concussions-diagnose-in-living.html?smprod=nytcore-ipad&smid=nytcore-ipad-share

Scientism
Elon Musk Wants Us To Become An Inter-Plaetary Species
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/28/science/elon-musk-spacex-mars-exploration.html?smprod=nytcore-ipad&smid=nytcore-ipad-share

Getting Real
Mars Mission for Only 1.5 Trillion
http://spacenews.com/op-ed-mars-for-only-1-5-trillion/

No Plumbing for 500,000 in US
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/27/health/plumbing-united-states-poverty.html?smprod=nytcore-ipad&smid=nytcore-ipad-share
c wilmot

climber
Sep 29, 2016 - 09:14am PT
How much taxmoney goes to support the free tesla charging stations?
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 29, 2016 - 09:18am PT
As a P.S. to my previous post, Musk is doing ALL his manufacturing in Hawthorne, California; none of the components are made in Mexico or China. As he describes his operation: metal comes in one door--rockets go out the other door. Ford, Chrysler, and GM have all shipped their good paying manufacturing jobs out of country. Do YOU enjoy calling Microsoft for support and get an "expert" who barely speaks English? Then thank Bill Gates if you do. So..I doubt that any of Elon's employees send their children to bed hungry.

A critical read for all the nay-sayers here: Entering Space; Creating a Space-Faring Civilization. It really isn't necessary to read the entire book, and only 2 pages of the Introduction will serve to explain the "Pax Mundata" arguments being offered here as to why we should remain in our intellectual cocoons.

A hundred years from now--no one will even recall the issues of abortion, gun control, immigration, etc., but will revere the names of the individuals who made the Universe accessable to humankind.
c wilmot

climber
Sep 29, 2016 - 09:26am PT
Musk blamed the falcon9 rocket failure on a strut from an external supplier
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 29, 2016 - 09:31am PT
OK, DMT! Here's the "pop quiz for the day!" What happened in 1492?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 29, 2016 - 10:02am PT
A critical read for all the nay-sayers here: Entering Space; Creating a Space-Faring Civilization.

I'm not a nay-sayer and Zubrin is an engineer, not a biologist. I'm simply pointing out the fact that it's biologically impossible for humans to live anywhere but planet Earth for any but the briefest of periods. We will never colonize other planets or travel interstellar space because we cannot survive off this very particular world. No creature sufficiently complex enough to exhibit intelligence will ever live off-world due to any number of biological and ecological constraints. If you want to colonize other planets and interstellar space you're going to have to do it with tardigrades and spore-capable bacteria - not complex organisms, as their biological dependency trees are much to large and complex.

As far as what happened in 1492? A microbiologically-driven genocide was kicked off with the introduction of new pathogens from the old world. It was a unintentional genocide (later intentional with smallpox blankets), but a very real consequence of people migrating across the oceans. And that was here on Earth and was basically nothing compared to what would happen to humans exposed to new pathogens on another habitable planet.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
Sep 29, 2016 - 10:06am PT
BDC, Have you run some figures on the cost of running a couple of guys out to Mars and back with a bucket of rocks?

There seems to be a disconnect here.

The resource use associated with this endeavor isn't being considered - it's not just the technological hurdles.

Yeah, I get it's fun to think about. The other issue is who does it serve?

This reminds me of people being all proud of their electric cars without accounting for how that electricity gets made or the ugly and overlooked issue of producing and dealing with batteries or just the reality of that resource being distinctly limited relative to population.

A distinct lack of systems thinking.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 29, 2016 - 10:11am PT
"A distinct lack of systems thinking."

So you're the systems guy? Lol
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 29, 2016 - 10:24am PT
Actually the "big news" in 1492 was there was a new Pope, and the richest man in the world died. No one paid any attention that some Italian weaver's son wanted to go sail off the edge of the Earth, funded by Queen Isabella of Spain. In fact, had that goofy weaver's son not found a "new world," no one would even have a clue as the identity of the name of the Spanish queen.

To answer Mark; there really isn't a plan to send a "quickie" expedition to the Martian surface in the manner of the Apollo Moon landings. Robert Zubrin's original Mars Direct proposal, after suitable modification at NASA, has been expanded and renamed the "NASA Design Reference Mission." The cost of sending a team of 7 astronauts to the Martian surface has been estimated at $30 to $40 billion if done by the Government, with costs spread out over 10 years on the program; well within NASA's existing budget of $19 Billion per year. That includes a stay time of 1 1/2 years with major planetary exploration. What makes the plan more feasible is the amount of actual research that can be accomplished by a team of 7 scientists in that time frame, and a good financial return on the money spent. Establishing a permanent human presence there wouldn't cost all that much once the interplanetary hardware has been built. Musk estimates that SpaceX can accomplish the same task for less than $10 Billion using the reusable booster technology already "in hand."

Anyone who has ever been a rockhound or fossil hunter realizes that it's a lot of searching and hard work if anything worthwhile is to be accomplished; that means lots of boots on the ground time, and no robotic probe I know of can accomplish that sort of hard paleontology. The problem with robotic probes is their strictly limited mobility and capability to do a wide variety of tasks spontaneously.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
Sep 29, 2016 - 10:26am PT
HFCS, do you have a particular point to make or are you just casting aspersion?

Here, I'll lead..

Your posting here appears to have a distinct lack of systems thinking for the reasons I've cited.

Your postings tend to drift into the realm of scientism to the detriment of science.

There is pure science for wonder, discovery, understanding, to uncover more questions to explore.

There is utilitarian science (i.e. knowing conversion of methylmalonic acid to succinyl-CoA in the citric acid cycle is promoted by hydroxocobalamin - but not by methylcobalamin - and all of the relationships that particular phenomenon effects).

Then there is the self-aggrandizing science that satisfies a few elitists egos.

Sula

Trad climber
Pennsylvania
Sep 29, 2016 - 10:32am PT
... nothing compared to what would happen to humans exposed to new pathogens on another habitable planet.
To survive within humans (a more or less necessary requirement for a human pathogen) an organism pretty much has to evolve among humans - or at least among creatures with a similar biology.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 29, 2016 - 10:39am PT
Sula-

You beat me to the punch with your response to healyje. The basis in biochemistry means "D-carbohydrates, and L-amino acid based life."

No, DMT, Columbus didn't default on his contract with the King of Spain, but with the Queen. Doesn't matter today that he was a rapist, as that makes us all feeling "guilty by association," eh? My point was--what was considered important then has absolutely no significance today. You're simply engaging in mental masturbation. Feels good to you, but has no lasting intellectual significance.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 29, 2016 - 10:42am PT
Mf... you're a trump... not of politics but of science conversations. In the climbing world they call that a poser. Busy day, sorry I have no more time for you...

There is utilitarian science (i.e. knowing conversion of methylmalonic acid to succinyl-CoA in the citric acid cycle is promoted by hydroxocobalamin - but not by methylcobalamin - and all of the relationships that particular phenomenon effects).

Lol
Sula

Trad climber
Pennsylvania
Sep 29, 2016 - 10:45am PT
The problem with robotic probes is their strictly limited mobility
May be somewhat true of a single robotic probe (though some on Mars have done impressively well).

But in terms of mobility per dollar, robotic probes easily beat humans. The fundamental point (mentioned above) is that for far less than the cost of a single human mission, you can send robotic probes to many dozens of locations, covering a total area and a variety of terrain vastly larger than any single human mission could hope to.
John M

climber
Sep 29, 2016 - 10:46am PT
Mark, I'm not weighing in on whether this is morally right or not, or if it is even possible, but what I got from the video that Broke originally posted is that Elon is thinking in terms of creating a system that is capable of delivering people and supplies to various places relatively economically. He said he believes the goal is to get the cost down to 200,000 dollars per person by making each part of the system reusable. It is undeniably ambitious, but I kind of admire him for it. And whatever the morality is, if he can make each part of the system reusable, like the shuttle, and if there are valuable minerals on mars, then it could become cost effective. But not likely in Elon's lifetime, which I don't believe is his goal, because if making/having money was his only goal, then he could quit right now.

He also said that mars has plenty of frozen H20, so with a large solar array, they could create a methane producing plant for fueling the rockets return flight, and with gravity on mars and with water, they could create a plumbing system much like earths.

As for flights, he says one can fly to mars within 100 days, and he believes its possible to get it down to 30 days. That is on a 2 year cycle when mars is closest to the earth.

Elon is mostly focused on the system of flight. He said he believes that if he creates the system of getting there and back, then others will be motivated to create the support structure for humans living on places like mars.

The whole thing is fascinating to me.

I have my own understanding of the spiritual motivations for this. but am hesitant to post them on this forum.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 29, 2016 - 10:47am PT
"I vehemently disagree..."

Vehemently!

Yeah right... no "belief" there. lol
Mark Force

Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
Sep 29, 2016 - 10:50am PT
If your understanding of the citric acid cycle biomechanics is different than mine, please post up. Poser? No. That's practical science put to use regularly with real people improving their lives and confirmed with standard pre and post lab tests. There's no posing about it. It's all about parctical science.

HFCS, you got nothin'. It's sad. Your wheels are starting to wobble. We've done this before. You're a cheap troll that likes passive aggressive aspersion rather than logical argument or debate. If you have an issue with what I've posted put up something substantive or STFU.

Your science is shallow worship rather than the quest of rigorous intellectual pursuit. The mark of the real thing - someone dedicated to science - is their humilty. Being clear of the limits of understanding while being excited about the promise of discovery and greater understanding; of being clear of what they know and don't know; of being willing to scrap what they believe as the data indicates a need to modify or even scrap their existing models or theories. Hubris and faith makes for poor science.

John, I'm with you on the engineering puzzles being fascinating.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 29, 2016 - 11:04am PT
DMT-

OK, rather than discussing science here, we've now switched to philosophical arguments. The underlying reasons given by Elon Musk have never been about economic exploitation, as he really doesn't need any more $$$$. He's personally worth--by some estimates--$12.5 Billion. He's very altruistic about the colonization of Mars by humanity, and in many of his speeches lays out his reasoning. It's all about ensuring survival of the entire human race, should a worldwide pandemic occur here on Earth, or against the possibility of a major asteroid impact such as the "dinosaur killer." We all have our own immortality through our offspring, and it would be nice to know that would continue in spite of a catastrophe. In fact, the technology developed by SpaceX would be useful should a deep space object (read that a comet or asteroid) be discovered on a collision course with our home here on Earth be discovered soon enough, subsequent use of the boosters developed for Mars missions could "do something" to either destroy or alter the course of an incoming object.

We are here in America the children of the Frontier, and have become what we are as a result of that spirit to grow outwards. Stagnation is simply not a part of that, and I am not one to agree with those saying we should postpone doing great things until "after we've solved all the world's problems." The world will ALWAYS have problems.

In my professional career, I was always happiest when working on new things--being on the cutting edge of chemical science. My business prospered because we did custom manufacturing of recently reported substances that no one else was willing to attempt to make. I'm now retired, but retain my enthusiasm for the frontiers of science.
Sula

Trad climber
Pennsylvania
Sep 29, 2016 - 11:06am PT
The cost of sending a team of 7 astronauts to the Martian surface has been estimated at $30 to $40 billion if done by the Government
You have to scratch your head at this, given that the cost of the International Space Station (not even close to the complexity of a manned Mars mission) has been $150 billion.

For perspective, the California High-Speed Rail project is budgeted at $68 billion, and it now seems to be widely agreed that this is looking like a serious underestimate. Is it realistic to think that a manned Mars mission could be done for around half that?


healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 29, 2016 - 11:28am PT
To survive within humans (a more or less necessary requirement for a human pathogen) an organism pretty much has to evolve among humans - or at least among creatures with a similar biology.

Anywhere humans can take off a suit is a place where pathogens will instantly start killing them. In the confines of any long-term, closed-loop habitat the microbes we bring with us will kill us over time. Not happening now or ever. And that's coming from someone who is a big fan of scifi and Elon's rocketry. But futile hurling is just that.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 29, 2016 - 11:34am PT
Sula-

Yes it's indeed feasible to do it within that budgeted amount. It all boils down to the contracting process in the prevailing industry. The big aerospace/defense contractors operate on the "cost-plus model," where the government agrees to give the contractor a small percentage commission for accomplishing any task. Hence, the bigger the pie gets, the more money they make. That model of contracting is why toilet seats cost $500 and a hammer is $800. On one hand,this contracting model was conceived to avoid systemic gouging and "excess profits" to the related industry.

On the other hand, companies such as SpaceX, Blue Origins, etc. are all running fixed price contracts for services rendered. That is with private companies worldwide, and there is competition for placing payloads in orbit (communications satellites). SpaceX has a model where profit is enhanced through booster reusability, which is knocking down the price of payload to Low Earth Orbit (LEO). The use it once and throw it away accounts for the high price of space launches by the United Launch Alliance, where a $100 Million Delta 4 Heavy gets dumped in the Atlantic with every mission. This accounts for much of SpaceX's success, since they charge a "mere" $65 Million per launch, due to lower overhead and reusability. I believe that figure comes down to $45 Million per launch of a satellite into Geosynchronous Transfer Orbit (GTO) if a previously flown booster is used.. Every time they've landed a booster successfully, they reduced oceanic pollution by returning an $17 Million booster to Cape Canaveral.

Musk estimated that one of his big Interplanetary Transfer System spacecraft will cost $300 Million to build. The first stage is completely reused up to 1000 times. The actual passenger vehicle will be capable of perhaps 12 uses over 26 years coinciding with the Hohmann transfer windows.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 29, 2016 - 11:53am PT
OK Guys, I need to 'fess up a bit on my background. It might explain some of my enthusiasm for the travel to Mars--and beyond. I began my collegiate education on Aerospace Engineering, and after 3 years, decided that the whole concept of being a tiny cog in a really big machine (read that--a drafting board based engineer) lost it's fascination. I took a "time out" and in the times I was living, that meant a hitch in the Army for 3 years in order to get my head back on straight. I finishe a BS in Chemistry at CU in Boulder, then went to Grad School up in Laramie, graduating with a Ph.D in Physical Chemistry. Then on to Postdoc at UC Santa Cruz, followed by Research Associate at Stanford. Thus endeth my academic life. In spite of the career change, I never lost my boyhood enthusiasm for rocketry and the whole concept of Space Travel. I grew up in a time when Wernher von Braun was becoming a culture hero.

I'm not necessarily endorsing Musk's grand plan for planetary colonization, but exploration followed by exploitation seems to be something of a pattern. Too bad I simply got old before my time... I'd love to visit Mars, and probably Callisto, the outermost of the Galilean Moons of Jupiter. What a view of the giant planet that would be! To walk the plains and desert of mars--to view vistas previously unseen by no living man--what a trip that would be!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 29, 2016 - 12:04pm PT
"research associate"?

Could that be anything like a "science associate"? lol

(sorry, bdc, you had to be there; old conversation)


What dmt fails to do often enough is distinguish between (a) reasonable "exploitation" that is responsible and (b) the other kind. He always does this. Takes a narrow, Trump-like pov to push his beliefs to the exclusion of the many other viable povs that could be simultaneously considered for a fuller, more productive overall "systems" picture.

re Healyje's concern... microbial human ecology... thousands of others (experts) don't seem to be expressing it. How come? Didn't Kelly just spend more than a year in space? Nothing from the experts in the news in regard to microbic dangers, one way or another. How come? If ever this issue becomes significant I'm sure it would become widely discussed.

Obviously, if life of any kind - of DNA or of anything else - were detected on Mars, appropriate responsible measures would be effected. So no worries there.

The naysayers and downer debbies (like mf) are just overtalking it. You'd think this was a Christian knitting group.

Dangus Ditchweed votes Trump over the issue of space exploration???!!!

Yes, how does one even begin to make sense of commentary like that?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 29, 2016 - 12:26pm PT
The Great Mark Force... (1) Who exactly has thrown the "aspersions" not to mention the bs? lol (2) One of us is in good company of thousands (starting with Elon Musk and Sam Harris). I think that rather speaks for itself, eh?
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 29, 2016 - 12:27pm PT
HFCS-

Research Associate at Stanford was a marked step above a Postdoc; it was essentially equivalent in rank to the lowest professorial, or assistant professor, rank but was non-teaching. Yeah, I had academic standing.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 29, 2016 - 12:40pm PT
Research Associate at Stanford

Oh I get it, bdc. (It was an old reference. There are also "science associates" at Stanford and other research universities.)

Hear, hear, to Elon Musk and the others. Mars here we come!

Keep the charge!!

....

As far as I'm concerned (and Elon Musk and thousands of others as well) the aims are plain as day...

(1) Make life multi-planetary. A good thing. Not just human life either. Imagine an earth bio-repository on Mars... how provident would that be in the long term?

(2) In the spirit of Carl Sagan, show the can-do spirit of Homo sapiens in the Cosmos... to the Cosmos. (You know, as opposed to "subsistence" living here on just Earth.)

What's mighty clear is this... the old adage... different strokes for different folks... is plainly evident on this thread.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
Sep 29, 2016 - 01:00pm PT
HFCS, yeah, you're a funny guy. You just might be the champ of hack logic, double-bind questions, and passive aggressive riposte. You're certainly a dedicated cheerleader for scientism, but you don't seem to grasp the scientific realities well and your grasp, too, of economics seems lacking. Those questions have been posted by me and others here.

I get how easy it is to become enamored with the idea. It brings up wonderful scientific challenges. It doesn't hold up to scrutiny. The pursuit may lead to some useful science and engineering - the same would probably be more efficently achieved and put directly to more useful applications by focusing on developing sustainable energy, agriculture, resource use, and infrastructure. That focus actually ends up doing something that serves people beyond a few self-obsessed elites.

The idea is fun, playing with the idea is fun, actually figuring that putting resources into it is a good idea is silly.

The time is past for the space race to be galvanizing and productive in a big way. The NEXT science and technological wave that will demand the best and the brightest to ride it will be to make our living on the Earth sustainable. Of course, that's not "cheap entertainment" like fantasizing actually flying through space on the Enterprise, but once you're done fantasizing make yourself useful.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 29, 2016 - 01:02pm PT
Healyje's concern... microbial human ecology... thousands of others (experts) don't seem to be expressing it. How come? Didn't Kelly just spend more than a year in space? Nothing from the experts in the news in regard to microbic dangers, one way or another. How come? If ever this issue becomes significant I'm sure it would become widely discussed.


Oh, it variously get's discussed, just not often in lay terms, press or forums. Microbial research has and is being conducted aboard ISS, but until this past July it was done by sampling different parts of ISS and returning those samples to Earth for study. But in July they conducted the first in-orbit DNA sequencing (even if just on test samples from Earth). Baby steps...


There hasn't been much formal work or talk around the ecological aspects of colonization and intra- / interstellar travel because those prospects are so remote as to still be science fiction.


But even when proposing ways to bridge the gap the focus is still generic and non-ecological because even we don't understand even the most basic processes and interactions (though we do know many species of bacteria become more virulent in space, but don't know why).

Any successful, sustained human presence in space requires a deeper understanding of how biological systems, such as single—celled organisms or our own immune system, respond to the space environment.

Again, most of the work going on is around protecting astronauts for short durations in space (and a year in ISS or a trip to Mars would still be short duration in this context) - i.e. focused on the basics and the obvious. Generally you have to have some background in microbiology, genetics and ecology to even be interested in what our prospects would be for longer durations.

The other folks interested in this sort of thing are working on closed-loop systems like ESA's Melissa and other 'biosphere' initiatives.

Regardless, the bottom line remains the same, it's a biological impossibility for complex organisms to leave their planets of origin for anything but short durations.

Oh and it's not just us that gets attacked...

Mutant space microbes attack ISS: 'Munch' metal, may crack glass

P.S. Kelly's year in space - a year? Pfft! A year is nothing in the context of what you guys are suggesting. A generation would be more like the minimal benchmark if we're talking about intrastellar travel.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 29, 2016 - 01:58pm PT
"the bottom line remains the same, it's a biological impossibility for complex organisms to leave their planets of origin for anything but short durations."

All right, Healyje. The proof will be in the pudding. One way or another.

I'm certainly not one that wants to underestimate complex ecologies and their awesome, incredibly powerful dynamics thousands of generations in the making. Time will tell.

In other words, the resolution of this conflict is plain enough: Get out there mid to long-term and see.

Sign me up.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 29, 2016 - 02:37pm PT
The only possibility would be if a very Earth-like planet were close enough to continuously ship enormous numbers of people there to die until one breeding pair somehow miraculously survive the immunological onslaught without damage to their reproductive systems and with enough available infrastructure to live and breed. Even then you'd still have to keep'em coming until you found some more breeding pairs, because in reality the survival of breeding pairs wouldn't automatically guarantee reproductive success - that might take many attempts by many breeding pairs. It would be a morose and moribund process at best.

Basically it would be a matter of running a human-scale version of this recent experiment:

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 29, 2016 - 04:01pm PT
There is compelling evidence that some at NASA believe true, that life here on Earth was possibly transmitted by means of Mars rocks ejected by asteroidial impact on that planet. The key evidence will be--if any life is found living deep underground in the aquifers of that planet--that the carbohydrates will be of the D-configuration and amino acids of the L-configuration. That data alone is not a sufficiency of evidence, but is definitely a necessity.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 29, 2016 - 06:09pm PT
So what say you, Moose, re healyje's deal-breaking concerns? Jump down into this here fray and tell us what you think. Is he over-downplaying it at this early stage or what?

Without vision the people perish.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 29, 2016 - 06:48pm PT
Moosie, you seem like a rational guy most of the time but I just don't get
why anybody would want to leave the only planet in the known universe that
has chocolate and coffee.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
Sep 29, 2016 - 07:23pm PT
Without reason the people perish.

Ok, I'm in. Let 's take a collection, get this thing going, and tell Trump he'll be the "uuggest" hero in the history of mankind, load him up and send him up with a "uuge" party.

That would make a contribution to the planet. Maybe he'd like to travel with his buddy Putin, too.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 29, 2016 - 09:36pm PT
Reilly-

Moosie wants some of my Absolute Martian Mist; chemically refined directly from the Martian atmosphere with zero water to contaminate the stuff!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 29, 2016 - 10:07pm PT
Irrational thinking is far more limiting, especially when the Golden Goose
has limited production. You dared to dream, but you were rational about it.
aspendougy

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Sep 29, 2016 - 10:29pm PT
A boy in Russia claims to have past life memories of a life on Mars several hundred thousand years ago. The Zulu keeper of the tales, says they have an oral tradition that the Zulu race was founded by a small group that escaped a great catastrophe on Mars, and landed in South Africa. The Celts have a similar tradition.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Sep 29, 2016 - 10:53pm PT
I thought that ark on the moon thing already made us an interplanetary species...

Or are we quibbling about the moon not being a planet?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 30, 2016 - 12:45am PT
it is highly unlikely to encounter a human pathogen on an alien world

You don't need to encounter a human pathogen, most of the emerging pathogens here on Earth aren't 'human pathogens'. Basically we're a foodstock that delivers ourselves. And on any world with life where we could take off a suit we would be little more than a new item on the menu. What we and our symbiants wouldn't have is immune systems capable of fending off the myriad microbiological attacks which would be launched on exposure.

Again, complex organisms are an exquisite balancing act akin to standing a pyramid on it's nose. The 'systems' which are represented by complex organisms and their symbionts take thousands upon thousands of years to evolve in a processes that constantly 'tunes' the organism to it's ecology every step of the way. That inextricably weds and binds complex organisms to their planets of origin and they cannot be 're-tuned' for a new world. Throw enough of them at a foreign environment and you might get lucky mutation-wise, but it's incredibly unlikely. Plus, we industrial society humans have fairly degraded immune systems to begin with even for our planet, let alone ship them anywhere else.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2016 - 07:30am PT
Although your reasoning is decent, your model would require the pathogens to have an identical biochemical basis of life to our own; that is, D-carbohydrates and L-amino acids. Let's for sake of argument propose the bacteria or pathogens found are based on D-amino acids. Their enzymes would all be ready to feast on other proteins containing a.a.s of the same chirality. They would "eat," but get zero nutrients they could metabolize. Similarly, if the carbohydrate basis of their systems were of L-chirality, same outcome. The pathogens really aren't then pathogenic. I really suspect that Mars' surface is devoid of anything still alive; only in subsurface water supplies would anything still living possibly be encountered.

If we encountered a beef cow of D-amino acid based proteins, we could eat the whole damned thing and sh#t out totally undigested food with zero nutrients being absorbed by our bodies. The only exception would be the lipids (fats and oils), which are non optically active. I used enzyme specificity to resolve synthetic amino acids for years in my lab.
Branscomb

Trad climber
Lander, WY
Sep 30, 2016 - 08:39am PT
I like Elon's work on batteries and the Tesla...that Giga Factory he's put together is just awesome and his effort to make the Tesla so affordable that Detroit will finally get on board with electric cars. The guy is an awesome genius... listen to him talk and I think he's he's got so much stuff going on in his head that he can't get it out all at once, so he sounds like he's stumbling along.

I'm not with him on this Mars thing...believing that there's nothing living there so we might as well terraplane it and exploit it for all it's worth. I think he's making a lot of assumptions about the place.

He's a very successful genius and has quite the ego to go with it. Maybe too much ego, but he's getting it done whereas most people are still stuck on a flat Earth.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2016 - 09:41am PT
Here's a little YouTube presentation!

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2016 - 09:51am PT
A bit more engineering oriented presentation!

[Click to View YouTube Video]
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 30, 2016 - 09:54am PT
bdc, moose, other steely-eyed adventurers...

bottom line, there's enough unknowns as part of the project either way. In part that is what the adventure is all about. Healyje speaks with a certitude, ime, that just isn't justified.

Outer space life could be so alien that our standard amino acids, eg, or even our particular chirality could be immediately toxic to it/them. That's one possibility. Another, a favorable one, is we could discover a changed internal complex ecology after a couple years on Mars that actually benefits our homeostasis and physiology. Wouldn't that be something. Who knows? The only way to know for sure is to get out ther and go for it.

It appears we are, it appears there is enough interest presently underway to make it happen. Despite the naysayers and debbie downers. First order of business: a viable interplanetary transport system just as Elon discussed.

I like the competitive spirit that's developed now between SpaceX and Blue Ocean. Sign me up!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 30, 2016 - 09:56am PT
The point I take from Healyje is that the real culprit would most likely be the pathogens they take with them, in them. They will evolve and mutate - and there will not be the other earth-systems in place to otherwise keep them in check.

It would only take one key mutated symbiotic organism to kill the space prisoners.

That's just silly. Esp when posted with the certitude expressed here. Of all the factors that could be detrimental, it's silly to focus on these.



Hey dmt, what are S and R enantiomers? What is Aleppo? :)
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 30, 2016 - 09:57am PT
Although your reasoning is decent, your model would require the pathogens to have an identical biochemical basis of life to our own; that is, D-carbohydrates and L-amino acids.

If pathogens were that radically different then the odds are good the entire biome of such a world would likely not have been worth the trip.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 30, 2016 - 09:58am PT
the entire biome of such a world would likely not have been worth the trip.

Again, how silly. As if that's the main reason, or ONLY reason, for such a project.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 30, 2016 - 10:04am PT
Always the smartypants - if not monkey wrench, right? - when the posting gets a little more in-depth.

Meet the new, same as the old.

.....

First order of business... a viable interplanetary transport system. Go SpaceX. Go Blue Ocean.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 30, 2016 - 10:09am PT
You know, when you actually spend time on your posts, and think things through to the extent the subjects deserve, no one at ST writes better than you.

I wish you would do this more often. Esp in the science and applied science areas.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 30, 2016 - 10:43am PT
Again, how silly. As if that's the main reason, or ONLY reason, for such a project.

I'm not talking specifically about Mars, but rather to the notion humans can somehow escape Earth's eventual fate, that we can colonize other worlds, or that we can become an 'interstellar species'.

There are lots of good reasons to be in space. There are lots of good reasons to learn about space. There are few good reasons to bother attempting to go to other planets in person and fewer still for attempting to establish a permanent human presence in space.

And specifically Mars? It lacks an adequate magnetosphere to protect life, it's soils are rife with perchlorates, and it experiences 170 degree temp swings on a nice day at the equator. I mean really, what's the point? If it's a suck quality of life you're after, then we might as well colonize the Antarctic or our oceans for all the hassle. Need to make a couple manned missions there to poke around, get it out of our system and swing our dicks? Sure, fine, but expending resources to set up camp? To what actual end? What's the rationale?

And past Mars? For actual humans? Nada. Nothing. It's why we've invented robotics.

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 30, 2016 - 10:53am PT
just a couple of points...

Musk titled his presentation "...Multiplanetary Species" the nuance is significant, he's proposing that humans might live on two planets, but the idea of regular passage between the two, like traveling on an interstate between them, is even more incredible than Musk's considerably expansive vision.

Similarly, Warren Harding and the team that pushed up the Nose over 50 years ago, had no idea what they were doing and no idea how to do it, they figured it out, but had the considerable luxury of returning to the ground, often... it was a mammoth accomplishment in the end, and while committing, hardly to the level of a Mars mission.

To that end, one can contemplate the issues without the silly boosterism some make on this (and other like) threads, consider the released movie today:

Passage to Mars

which is not about a passage to Mars, but about an adventure on Earth which was big enough adventure.

One might read this a bit more closely... it's hard to imagine this speech from either of the current candidates for POTUS, (or nearly any other POTUS) and while it provides an answer for the Moon mission, it is much more expansive. But one can legitimately ask, is this challenge, a mission to Mars the best way to "serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills"?

We set sail on this new sea because there is new knowledge to be gained, and new rights to be won, and they must be won and used for the progress of all people. For space science, like nuclear science and all technology, has no conscience of its own. Whether it will become a force for good or ill depends on man, and only if the United States occupies a position of pre-eminence can we help decide whether this new ocean will be a sea of peace or a new terrifying theater of war. I do not say that we should or will go unprotected against the hostile misuse of space any more than we go unprotected against the hostile use of land or sea, but I do say that space can be explored and mastered without feeding the fires of war, without repeating the mistakes that man has made in extending his writ around this globe of ours.

There is no strife, no prejudice, no national conflict in outer space as yet. Its hazards are hostile to us all. Its conquest deserves the best of all mankind, and its opportunity for peaceful cooperation may never come again. But why, some say, the Moon? Why choose this as our goal? And they may well ask, why climb the highest mountain? Why, 35 years ago, fly the Atlantic? Why does Rice play Texas?

We choose to go to the Moon! ... We choose to go to the Moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard; because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one we intend to win ...

J. F. Kennedy - Rice University - September 12, 1962

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2016 - 10:59am PT
I choose to support various space initiatives as options to more arms races, and perpetual Jihads here on Earth--a place where all mankind could unify effort for an achievable goal.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 30, 2016 - 11:07am PT
Speaking of...

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/30/opinion/why-its-safe-to-scrap-americas-icbms.html

This is not an academic concern.

William Perry, no less.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2016 - 11:13am PT
DMT-

There is much more water on Mars than could ever be utilized by mankind in thousands of years; it's in the form of permafrost and not so much in the polar caps. There is undoubtedly some subsurface water as well. Not a lot of water is consumed in the synthesis of methane from carbon dioxide and water; a byproduct of water electrolysis is oxygen, useful for breathing.

Europa, the 2nd Galilean moon of Jupiter has more water than is on the Earth. There are other proposals to bring even more water from the Kuiper belt in the form of "iceteroids," and before much habitation occurs on Mars, impact them on the planet. Also, the comment posted elsewhere about the soil of Mars having "too many perchlorates," that's simply based on a small representative sample at one site. This was the result from the Viking landers.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 30, 2016 - 11:23am PT
This was the result from Viking landers

Perchlorates are reactive chemicals first detected in arctic Martian soil by NASA's Phoenix lander that plopped down on Mars over five years ago in May 2008.

It is likely both of NASA's Viking Mars landers in 1976 measured signatures of perchlorates, in the form of chlorinated hydrocarbons. Other U.S. Mars robots — the Sojourner, Spirit and Opportunity — detected elemental chlorine. Moreover, orbital measurements taken by the Mars Odyssey spacecraft show that chlorine is globally distributed.

And more recently, NASA's Curiosity rover found perchlorates within Gale Crater, where it landed in August 2012.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 30, 2016 - 11:23am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 30, 2016 - 11:27am PT
This seems to remain among my greatest concerns...

In August, a satellite was slammed by a space of space debris. Here’s what happened...


http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2016/09/30/sentinel_1a_spacecraft_was_hit_by_space_debris.html
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 30, 2016 - 11:28am PT
I'm all for space flight and exploration, but what's the point and rationale for manned settlements on the Moon or Mars? There are no economic or scientific rationales I can come up with compared to robotic alternatives other than various forms of [highly nationalistic] dick swinging.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 30, 2016 - 11:33am PT
I guess one man's "dick swinging" is another's simple adventure and achievement?


Perhaps not unlike bagging a peak or accomplishing an FA?

What's the alternative? that awaits us? Sweet VR for everybody in tiny little low impact cubicles where all of our fondest dreams come true?

It is interesting how we all choose to frame these things.
Based on our innate and inherited sensibilities, I guess.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 30, 2016 - 01:18pm PT
How about basic exploration and discovery as a primary motivator? also basic growth and development, either in terms of (long-term) civilization or (long term) cultural evolution, however you prefer? these have been mentioned before but a few of you, with all due respect, seem to downplay them. In my view, they are basic and significant as factors in the mix for getting out there.

Why now? We have to start some time. Why not now while the going is good. By many measures we are in an ecological boom phase presently, 100 years from now this might not be so. Strike while the iron's hot.

Don't get me wrong. Just because I'm a space cowboy, I don't expect everybody to be. I'm happy with the current numbers. They are what they are. I'm just grateful some few per cent others out there feel and think as I do. I could imagine worse. In terms of human interest or in terms of times and conditions. The world's cultures and peoples have contributed a great deal to human civilization (else human cultural evo) in the last 100 years. So net-weighed, I've really got no complaints. It's certainly been good for me. I'm grateful to have been born and raised in the 20th-21st when it could've been some other time, eg, the age of the pharaohs.

Reasons military or nationalistic do not make my list of motives at all.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 30, 2016 - 02:07pm PT
It should also be noted that had we decided to invade Mars instead of Afghanistan and Iraq we might already be there at a fraction of the cost of those wars and with considerably fewer lives lost. Maybe that's the deal, Musk needs to promote it as an invasion - you know, like head off the very, very, very dangerous existential threat Mars poses. What threat? I don't know myself of course, but on twitter I recently read a credible and detailed...
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2016 - 03:55pm PT
Back to my ranching background and knowledge of water rights/water laws. In general, water rights obtain by the first appropriator and he who makes beneficial use thereof! That said, more blood has been spilled over water in the U.S. West than any other dispute.

Anybody here have an estimate of how much water is used (wasted!) flushing toilets daily in just LA? Probably a LOT more than would be consumed in making methane rocket fuel on Mars?

Mars was once a wet and warm planet, but lacks any significant magnetosphere to deflect the ravages of the Solar wind, which removed the early atmosphere. Loss of the bulk of it's atmospheric gases led to freezing out of all water into permafrost and/or polar icecaps. The water is "there for the taking," which rubs DMT the wrong way. But his views are simply an extension of Malthusian economic theory of scarcity, by saying the resources must be scarce, so they must be , somehow, rationed out/conserved. Expansion into the outer Solar system will once and for all lay that perverse and pessimistic viewpoint to rest. Malthusian economic principles are really the cause of warfare--fighting over "scarce resources."
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 30, 2016 - 03:57pm PT
That's what the Europeans said to the Americans.

fixed that for you...

Expansion into the outer Solar system

That's somewhat aggressively optimistic given we haven't expanded beyond low earth orbit so far.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2016 - 07:19pm PT
You are neglecting the 12 men who have walked on the Moon!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Oct 2, 2016 - 10:11am PT
“Elephants, they’re like computers. They have the biggest memories. They remember everything. But they have no imagination. That’s what’s special about being human.”

Shirom Peres
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Oct 2, 2016 - 10:58am PT
In general, water rights obtain by the first appropriator and he who makes beneficial use thereof!

of course, this needs to be quantified... as a rancher in the Great Plains, you are no doubt aware that the total mass of beef grown there by "modern" ranching methods is roughly equivalent to the total mass of bison who grew there in the pre-Colombian period. One might say that the post-Colombian period initiated the period of "beneficial use" but that would have to be squared with the apparent efficacy of the pre-Colombian management of the same range.

The definition of "beneficial use" is not rigorous, and can lead to a false justification of means to an end. This economic philosophy is attributed to Locke, and was used in the appropriation of lands during the US western expansion. Interestingly this idea of "making beneficial use" for some relatively short period conveys to the laborer the absolute ownership rights, at least in our modern extension of it.

We would do well to rethink this particular philosophy of property rights, especially if we are to assume the mantle of an enlightened, spacefaring nation.
Captain...or Skully

climber
Boise, ID
Oct 2, 2016 - 12:32pm PT
I lean towards O'Neil's idea of putting a structure at L5. Go from there.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Oct 2, 2016 - 07:40pm PT
So I just watched for second time the JFK speech posted by Ed. To watch it in full is really something. Talk about... Inspiring. It really captures it ... The spirit ... Wow!


Such a breath of fresh air after a week of trump.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 2, 2016 - 08:40pm PT
You are neglecting the 12 men who have walked on the Moon!

I wasn't talking about day-tripping, but rather space we actually have 'expanded' to.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 2, 2016 - 08:45pm PT
The Kennedy speech was quite inspiring, and he had the appropriate driving force readily at hand in the guise of Wernher von Braun. Elon Musk isn't the inspirational speaker in the same manner as a Kennedy, but the ideas alone resonate with many in the aerospace community. His ideas may seem a bit too grandiose to some, but it's always a good idea to "aim high." I personally am a bit more stepwise-methodical, seeing possibly an intermediate vehicle crewed by maybe between 7 and 12 to do lots of "on the ground" preliminary work. It could also serve as a "proof of concept," by involving use of the new Raptor methane/LOX engines and embodying orbital fuel transfers. What makes the concept at all within bounds of reality/affordability is the concept of reusability.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Oct 3, 2016 - 09:40am PT
Job well done, Rosetta. Sweet dreams.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2016/10/03/rosetta_mission_ends.html

"It’s (another) monument to what we can do when we work together and really try."
jstan

climber
Oct 3, 2016 - 11:15am PT
I just can't understand why are you so concerned about taking something that belongs to nobody.

We all are familiar with the law preventing users of water from upstream locations, from cutting off downstream users. Since the outlet to aquifers are not known, I think those tapping an aquifer cannot consider they own the aquifer in its entirety. In line with this, I understand in some locations, land owners may not drill wells on their property.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Oct 3, 2016 - 11:27am PT
All this reminds me of Nero's fiddling.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Oct 3, 2016 - 11:49am PT

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/spaceimages/details.php?id=pia20846

One wonders to what extent ETIs (Martians?) explored around the El Cap Unit and the Half Dome Unit a million years ago.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
Oct 3, 2016 - 03:35pm PT
All this reminds me of Nero's fiddling.

Yep.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Oct 3, 2016 - 08:02pm PT
Trump is

from Ur Anus
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 5, 2016 - 01:08pm PT
Blue Origin is keeping their pedal to the metal, as well as SpaceX.
They successfully carried out their passenger capsule abort test this morning.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

I watched this live earlier this morning, but found an edited and abbreviated form for posting here.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Oct 6, 2016 - 09:30am PT
Exciting stuff...

https://youtu.be/bqUIX3Z4r3k?t=51m16s

Don't blink, you might miss it.

Congrats, Blue Origin!

....

I see bdc beat me to it.
I love the competition between these two groups!

How awesome is control engineering?!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Oct 17, 2016 - 09:42am PT
Another small step for H. sapiens...

Date: 19 Oct 2016... Mars Touchdown

Schiaparelli Lander Prepares for Touchdown on Mars

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/schiaparelli-lander-prepares-for-touchdown-on-mars/

We're piecing it together. Slowly.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Oct 17, 2016 - 11:29am PT
Visiting Mars is one thing. Living there, forever, is another.

No water. No oxygen. No magnetic field to protect you from radiation. No atmosphere to protect you from UV radiation. You would have to live underground. One good solar flare would give you cancer.

There is probably permafrost..frozen groundwater. You could mine that, but recycling every molecule of water, and a way to create O2 from CO2 would be necessary. Plants are good at that. I'm not sure if we've figured out a way to convert CO2 to O2 yet, mechanically.

Topographically low areas with porous rocks are the most likely areas to find ground water. You could mine it and then recycle it. Still, it would be very difficult to colonize Mars. What would be the point? Earth, even at its worst, is far more attractive. When you think of Mars, think of Antarctica, but without the water ice and oxygen.

The Moon is more hostile, but it is only 4 days away. Sending supplies would be much easier. You still have the radiation problem on the Moon.

The moons that have oceans, such as Europa and Enceladus would be just as difficult. Europa is no good because of Jupiter's radiation. Titan has atmospheric pressure similar to Earth's, but it is super cold, and has an exotic hydrocarbon atmosphere and ocean. Staying warm is easier than staying cool, though. Radioactive materials are already being used to generate electricity on the most distant probes. They also create warmth. A reactor would be a necessary bit of equipment.

The best way to spread life is Panspermia. Send a million little spacecraft with a 25 gram selection of hardy unicellular life to every close star system. The package is tiny, so the vehicles could also be small. A few pounds or so. It will take thousands of years to cross even the closest interstellar distances, so the little craft would need to have minimal thrust and computing power. As they approached a system, they would need to find the planets and rendezvous with them. It could be done with current technology, probably.

Have them crash land on every known planet, and seed life throughout our closest stellar neighbors.

After that, let evolution do its thing.

Unless we can figure out how to travel near the speed of light, even our closest neighbors would be generations away. Sending humans isn't practical. Seeding life would be, however.

If there was a way to send human embryos, and have equipment to raise them, that might be a method. Not much life support is necessary, but protection from radiation over time would be a huge problem. Even thick shielding allows some radiation penetration. Over thousands of years, DNA would have to survive a lot of high energy radiation.

It would be difficult to survive without other life, though. We eat living things, you know. If we were to live forever on another planet, we would have to bring along many, many, species with us.

Cool to think about.

That leads to an ethical question, though. Is it OK to send life which might kill other life on a planet? Even on our cleanest landers, we are sending traces of life along.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Oct 17, 2016 - 12:39pm PT
Good post, Mark (BASE).
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Oct 17, 2016 - 01:11pm PT
^^^ Yes
Captain...or Skully

climber
Boise, ID
Oct 17, 2016 - 02:34pm PT
I think it makes more sense to establish an orbital habitat at L5 and go elsewhere from there.
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Oct 17, 2016 - 03:23pm PT
As soon as children no longer starve to death on this planet, we can explore space travel in good conscience.
That's always been my opinion. Even as a child.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 3, 2017 - 02:04am PT
As mentioned previously, humans don't space travel alone - we are a composite organism and only one tenth of our collected cells are 'human'.

https://phys.org/news/2017-02-astronaut-gut-bacteria-attributed-spaceflight.html
nah000

climber
no/w/here
Feb 3, 2017 - 04:03am PT
+1 pud

isn't this what bacteria does?

it tries to expand to another host before it completely kills off its current host?



we haven't figured out how to collectively and with any real sustainability live together on this earth...

why would we risk fUcking another one up, when we're still in such organizational infancy on this one?



don't get me wrong, as an abstraction it is as interesting as anything... and in more time for sure...

in the mean time, we have [as always imesho] far more pressing problems that we should be putting our collective energies towards solving.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 3, 2017 - 05:47am PT
isn't this what bacteria does? it tries to expand to another host before it completely kills off its current host?

These aren't infectious bacteria being discussed, they're our symbiont gut bacteria. They have wide-ranging influence on all sorts of things relating to your well-being and even some behavior and you wouldn't be alive without them.
nah000

climber
no/w/here
Feb 3, 2017 - 10:14am PT
healyje: sorry wasn't referring to your article. was talking about our, as a human species, acting like bacteria looking for a new host/earth, rather than sorting out the challenges we still haven't successfully figured out a way to handle on this host/earth.
Reeotch

climber
4 Corners Area
Feb 3, 2017 - 12:06pm PT
Here is my own response to an assignment I gave to my students. The question was, "Why is biology important". My response swerved off into this very subject:

"Respect Life"
Biology is the study of life, and in spite of numerous claims of UFO sightings and alien abductions, the Earth is still the only known place in the universe where life exists. At this point scientists agree that finding life elsewhere is probable. The most likely scenario is that we will discover evidence for some form of unicellular, prokaryotic life on a moon of Jupiter or Saturn, or even on a meteorite that falls to earth. However, the chances of encountering other "intelligent" life are much, much less. Why do people automatically assume that UFOs are actually alien spacecraft visiting us from star systems many light years away from Earth? That's a pretty big leap, is it not?
"What is that thing?"
"I don't know, it must be from Alpha Centuari."
More likely it's from China, or our own top secret space program. There is a huge difference between some single-celled bacteria, and organisms intelligent enough to have mastered interstellar travel.
The Earth is special. Even if there is life elsewhere in the universe, which there probably is, the odds of a planet developing "intelligent" life must be incredibly, infinitesimally, small. Therefore, the Earth is special. The Earth is special because it has life, it has intelligent life, and we're not just talking about humans. The Earth and all the life on it is special, sacred even. Although we humans often like to pretend that we are somehow set apart from the Earth and all the rest of life on it, the truth is we are part if it. Not apart, but a part; a part of a larger living ecosystem. We totally depend on it. Totally.
Those who entertain the idea that humanity will be saved from extinction by colonizing the Moon, Mars or some other off-world alternate, are surely living in a science fiction fantasy (unless they know something I don't . . . ). We need to get it through our heads that we are, in fact, totally dependent on the Earth for our very survival, for the foreseeable future. Therefore, once again, the Earth and all the life on it is special, incredibly important; we can't live without it; it is sacred.
So, why is biology important? Because life is important. What other reason is required? We should do our best to learn as much as we can about life. We should do our best to protect life, and the conditions that promote life. This is why unnecessary killing is wrong. What other reason is needed? It should be obvious, by now, to any thinking person, that we have a duty to protect all life on this planet simply because this is the only place in the universe where we know that not only life exists, but intelligent life exists. No other reason is required. It makes perfect logical sense. This is my position: Respect Life!

Mars may be an interesting project, but it will never be an alternative "home".
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 3, 2017 - 12:15pm PT
nah000 - Sorry, a little slow at the time....

Rescue Party by Arthur C. Clarke - A very short 1964 story on that very subject...
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