Cowabunga - i removed the bolts today

Is it still somewhat safe? Silly question, I know.

Glad to hear it's being protected from consumer-driven, convenience-minded dweebs.

anxiety is the bi-product of trying to run the universe,

lot of people out there, gotta watch em,

blow yourself up into a prideful balloon, with the illusion that you are better than everybody else,

Steve,

When PTPP and I redrilled Bermuda Dunes, we made sure to ask you first. You were in your van near the El Cap bridge,

If people don't like it they can go jump on one of the thousand routes waiting to be done in the style of your choosing in the grand canyon of the Tuolumne...right over there and virtually in sight of this route.

All of this demand for "convenience" is impacting the resource in ways that cannot be appreciated over years, but only over decades

Climbing is way too serious for me I guess or I don't take it seriously enough, Climb on.

You may not have heard the word "convenience" but if you have never heard someone whine about an approach or anchor, protection availability or rap station then I wonder just who you are climbing with...? Glad to hear your partners never, ever wonder about such things and wish someone would add a bolt here or there? Doubtful.

Gym climber

Sep 20, 2016 - 02:27pm PT
Justin I'm going climbing after work, you want to go? The approach is going to suck, it's super long, its not too convenient to send the gnar without Facebook signal, there's super sketch rap tree I am so scared of but I am learning trad!!! It'll be fun.



Bro.

Semper Farcisimus!

It is what we say it is, and I say the FA stands as is unless the original creators are on record advocating a change. That seems to be consensus and will be policed as such.

A First Ascent is a part of the history of the park. The case can be easily made to the NPS that while future bolt placement (on new routes) and replacement (on old routes) is allowed, retro-bolting is a defacement of the History of Yosemite and American Climbing that has at the center of it's ethos that the placement of bolts should be left to the FA party (that history the NPS has some duty to protect as part of it's mission to preserve the history of Yosemite) and that retro-bolts are a defacement of that history (like Sloan's bolts on the Great Slab).

Styles and ethics will come and go.

I think you are reading too much into this.

There has been dialogue with the NPS and Superintendent(s) of YNP for more than 30 years on this topic, it is not some new issue. Bolting and its use in Yosemite v. the wilderness act is not some new topic either and is established as allowed as a historical use of wilderness.

The fact of the matter is that this is revisited every few years and for better or worse it needs to have a generational review every now and then.

The establishment of bolt-intensive face climbs is considered incompatible with wilderness preservation and management due to the concentration of human activity which they support, and the types and levels of impacts associated with such routes. Climbing management strategies will address ways to control, and in some cases reduce, the number of fixed anchors to protect the park’s wilderness resources or to preserve the “untrammeled,” “undeveloped,” and “outstanding opportunities for solitude” qualities of the park’s wilderness character.

Fixed anchors or fixed equipment should be rare in wilderness. Authorization will be required for the placement of new fixed anchors or fixed equipment. Authorization may be required for the replacement or removal of existing fixed anchors or fixed equipment. The authorization process to be followed will be established at the park level and will be based on a consideration of resource issues (including the wilderness resource) and recreation opportunities.

I risked my life because the community was ignorantly guiding people to nasty old bolts placed poorly by novice climbers. Should that be a required experience for the next generation?

... climbing in a vacuum.

Route development will continue to devolve.

I risked my life because the community...

Should that be a required experience for the next generation?

I've never once done an FA for anyone else and could give a rat's ass if they are ever climbed again let alone how frequently.

And if you truly want to hold everything in stasis...

Awesome, worth quoting. Yet you care so deeply if they are modified. Good luck holding on to that position.

historical bolting ethic in Yosemite intended to minimize their use and impact.

But again, it's hardly a simple matter of 'style and ethics come and go'. That's like dismissing the encroachment of condos and apartment buildings on Red Rock NP as just a matter of 'home and rental options come and go'. Many things 'come', but in both these instances it's quite unlikely they will 'go' on their own - they are structural changes to the landscape.

When everyone is gone in a few generations I suspect most if not all routes that people want to climb will be retrobolted.

Precisely the current issue and why we should face it today.

Tradition: Following the dictates of dead people.

You washed up clowns are a such a fuk'n bore, your opinions tired and irrelevant.

None of these posts beyond 50 words will ever be read.

total mental commitment just makes no sense to me.

I have never understood the deliberate trough in Tuolumne climbing.

The gear has changed so much that pretty much any decent gym climber can climb 5.10.

If you want to find people who think like John Bachar, look to the 5.13 climbers, not the 5.10 climbers.

That mismatch just makes no sense to me.

I don't agree. The wholesale mutation of climbing into just another risk-free, pop-suburban entertainment option over the a span of thirty-five years is hardly a matter of "reading too much into this". The fact that essentially the whole of today's demographic has only developed to the scale it has based on boxes, batteries, bolts, autoblocking devices, and birthday parties is equally lamentable, however inevitable.

I have never understood the deliberate trough in Tuolumne climbing. Climb very easy stuff, 5.8 and below, and there are plenty of bolts or cracks for you. Climb hard-ish stuff, 5.11 and above, and there are plenty of bolts for you. Climb easy/intermediate, 5.9 and 5.10, and so many of the routes risk major falls.

but rather because they are...

boring.

They'll meet in the coffee house the next morning, give each other high fives, and boast...."Dude....I fired the B-Y last night.....no falls.....it was SICK!!!"

they'll sit around on their asses and 'fire' those routes pushing buttons and playing with their joysticks

No - it appears they'll actually just sit around yankin' it on ST.

"Perhaps guys like Sloan can finally be brought to understand that his vision is misguided."...

Dream on...

What we "old fuddy-duddies" are arguing is for general recognition of what has "forever and a day" been a sweeping consensus that what makes climbing climbing (as opposed to gymnastics) is the basic principle of conforming oneself to what the rock presents. The more closely one does that on a FA, the more one has put up a climb. The more closely one does that on a subsequent ascent, the more one has climbed a climb.

They just don't do it on 5.9, 5.10, or usually even 5.11.

Plenty of climbers do push mental limits. They just don't do it on 5.9, 5.10, or usually even 5.11.

That's exactly the point. Plenty of climbers do push mental limits. They just don't do it on 5.9, 5.10, or usually even 5.11. But the anti-retrobolters are almost always arguing about preserving their personal routes, or the routes of their generation, which sit right in that physically easy/intermediate sweet spot. There now is a major mismatch between how hard the climbs are, and how much mental commitment they require. It makes for a very polarizing debate.

Since they can't climb our routes the way we put them up in our generation, it won't be long before this nanny state, entitlement generation recreates the run out routes virtually on a video game.......and they'll sit around on their asses and 'fire' those routes pushing buttons and playing with their joysticks.

A few real climbers will occasionally remove the retrobolts.

"There is still rock out there for people to establish routes in the style they wish, with their own vision, It doesn't yet seem time to start adding bolts to established climbs. If people want to drill bolts in the rocks, they may want to do so on their own new routes. "

Maybe someday climbing shoes will get good enough that 5.9 will feel as casual as 5.6 to a gymbie. When that happens, some of those climbs will come back in style. In the meantime, once in a blue moon they get a retro-bolt, and heated internet discussion ensues.

C'mon healyje, quit beating this dead horse. One of climbing's greatest ever freesoloists is less than half your age and started out in a gym.

As I believe someone mentioned earlier, something like 85-90% of gym climbers never leave the gym, and of the remaining 10% how many of them do you think actually put up routes? Know how to drill a bolt?

Population growth and more people in the mountains - and on adventurous committing routes - is something totally different.

The South Crack run-out is on 5.6 terrain. Even 5.8 climbers usually feel ok on a small amount of 5.6 run-out. Bump that run-out to 5.9, and the number of climbers would plummet.

Like most climbers, you probably aren't aware of how many 5.9/5.10 routes similar to South Crack, but slightly harder, exist in Tuolumne. They don't get climbed much because they aren't in the Supertopo, because Supertopo deliberately excludes most free-solos or x-rated climbs. As Ed says, most of the nicest lines have been done, and kudos to the bravery of the first ascent team. But they are not common knowledge unless you look for it.

There are climbers all of the time on Table of Contents, with its 10b runout first pitch and its rusty bolt 10a runout third pitch.

If you wanna see some real TM runouts head over to Fairview dome and get on some of lesser traveled routes

bump that run-out to 5.9, and the number of climbers would plummet.