HMS Terror found - Arctic (OT)

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Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 12, 2016 - 05:08pm PT
The wreck of HMS Terror has been found by Canadian scientists, southwest of King William Island in the Arctic. She was the second of Sir John Franklin's vessels to be found, after 170 years - the wreck of Erebus was found two years ago. Neither vessel, especially Terror, was where they thought it would be. It may take some years for the wrecks to be fully surveyed, as the area has sea ice for 10 - 11 months/year. But it will undoubtedly add nuance to the history of the period. The Franklin expedition was rather peripheral to Canadian history, then and even now, but is still of much interest.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/12/hms-terror-wreck-found-arctic-nearly-170-years-northwest-passage-attempt

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/franklin-expedition-ship-found-in-arctic-id-d-as-hms-erebus-1.2784268

Fans of history will no doubt remember Erebus and Terror, not just as pioneering vessels in the Arctic and Antarctic, but also for bombarding Fort McHenry in 1812. "The rockets' red glare" refers to rockets launched from them.

All this, plus the wreck of McClure's HMS Investigator was found at Mercy Bay on the north side of Banks Island in 2010: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Investigator_(1848);

And now the Norwegians have raised Amundsen's Maud, and plan to return her to Norway: http://www.maudreturnshome.no/

Speaking of Norwegians, the update on the possible Viking ruins in Newfoundland, about 600 km southwest of L'Anse aux Meadows: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/viking-dig-point-rosee-newfoundland-2016-1.3751129

OK, so only a few of us are interested in this stuff. Still, the age of exploration is closely tied to the development of mountaineering.
jonnyrig

climber
Sep 12, 2016 - 05:28pm PT
If for nothing else, the development of cordage and knots. ABK?
Neat stuff.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Sep 12, 2016 - 05:53pm PT
MH! Since we are all interested in "sufferfests" ----- we should all enjoy your post on the "super-uber" "sufferfests" of 19th century Artic exploration.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Sep 12, 2016 - 06:35pm PT
The Franklin story is fascinating. No word had been heard from those ships for 4-5 years before they decided to go looking for them.

The story of the hunt for the Northwest Passage is mindboggling.

That they managed to starve to death in a region of fat Eskimos is a story in itself.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2016 - 08:16pm PT
If the Trumperati knew that Canadians had discovered the remains of a ship named Terror, which burnt down their president's house 200 years ago, they'd flip out.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 12, 2016 - 08:29pm PT
Cool stuff, Mighty! Takk takk!

That they managed to starve to death in a region of fat Eskimos is a story in itself.

That's not a fair criticism. The art of seal hunting is so arcane that an analogy could be that
somebody who had done a couple of paint by numbers could suddenly get off something
like The Last Supper on their first effort at free hand painting.

Og tusen takk for the Viking news! Two of my fave subjects!
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Sep 12, 2016 - 09:04pm PT
Fans of history will no doubt remember Erebus and Terror, not just as pioneering vessels in the Arctic and Antarctic, but also for bombarding Fort McHenry in 1812. "The rockets' red glare" refers to rockets launched from them.

HMS Terror was involved in the bombardment of Ft Mchenry.
HMS Erebus was not. The ship that took part in the Franklin expedition was built in 1826.
In addition to sails, it had a steam engine.
(terror was retrofitted with one)

The boat of that name involved in the Ft Mchenry bombardment was built in 1807 and broken up in 1819 after being laid up 3 years.


Neat stuff, though - all of it.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2016 - 09:23pm PT
Well, the Department of Homeland Insecurity would no doubt lock up Erebus anyway, not just because of her name, but for aiding and abetting Terror. Off to Guantanamo with the both of them!

King William Island is a desolate environment, and its natural resources never supported more than a few nomadic Inuit families. Not 129 sailors. You can't blame the Inuit of the time for leaving them to their own devices, as there was little they could do for them. Maybe a few of the sailors adapted reasonably well, and lasted 1848. But they were fish out of water.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Sep 12, 2016 - 09:23pm PT
Brennan..You forgot that it was also a prison during the civil war whose inmates included the Mayor of Baltimore and Francis Scott Keys Grandson for being southern sympathizers. The Key family still owned slaves.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 12, 2016 - 09:33pm PT
Tami, I wasn't addressing the possible interaction between the Inuit and the Brits, just the
difficulty of the Brits attempting to fend for themselves. Even with the best Inuit hunters I aver
it would have been impossible to find enough seal for that large a group. Without Inuit help
it would have been impossible.
BruceHildenbrand

Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
Sep 12, 2016 - 11:27pm PT
One theory is that the lead solder used to close the lids on their tinned provisions gave some of the men who died in the first couple of years lead poisoning.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Sep 13, 2016 - 05:26am PT
They talked to natives who reported seeing English trudging by their villages pulling sledges.
Gregory Crouch

Social climber
Walnut Creek, California
Sep 13, 2016 - 08:04am PT
Oddly enough, Lady Franklin, Sir John's widow, just made a cameo appearance in the story I'm working on these days... She was quite a remarkable woman in her own right, raising money and organizing the various relief efforts.

She visited California in 1861, and in October of that year, she made a visit to the bottom of the Ophir Mine in Virginia City. 200 feet down a mine shaft wasn't a bad effort for a 75-year old Victorian lady...


(Red Bluff Independent, December 5, 1861)
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Sep 13, 2016 - 08:11am PT
WOW! Thanks for that Anders! What an incredible find.

The ship is said to be in nearly perfect condition. One wonders what they will be able to salvage?

So .... all you explorers here - cavers and first ascensionists .... you think YOU have experienced an epic??

All of our epics pale in comparison to Franklin's.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Sep 13, 2016 - 08:23am PT
All of our epics pale in comparison to Franklin's.

or Shackelton's
couchmaster

climber
Sep 13, 2016 - 08:34am PT

Great thread.

Greg, shake the forum when you get that work finished and published, your writing is so damned good.

Gregory Crouch

Social climber
Walnut Creek, California
Sep 13, 2016 - 09:13am PT
Thanks, Couchmaster. It's kicking my ass right now. Basically trying to do for John Mackay and the Comstock Lode 1860-1880 what I did for William Langhorne Bond and CNAC 1929-1949 with China's Wings. It's proving difficult to sort out "what actually happened" from lots of unreliable witnesses. Most of the book sources were written 20-30 years after the fact, and therefore unreliable, and I suspect that many (perhaps most) of the newspaper correspondents writing about the mines on a daily or weekly basis had "skin in the game," meaning that they owned stock in the mines they were writing about, which renders their testimony suspect, to say the least.

Relevant to this thread, I also recently saw disheveled prospectors dashing off to the sites of suspected mineral strikes in the Great Basin in 1860 described as "searchers after Sir John Franklin." Without further explanation or elaboration, which leads me to suspect that as a cultural reference the Franklin expedition was quite common in the middle 19th Century.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Sep 13, 2016 - 01:25pm PT
Here is a fun looking fictional work on the subject.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Terror_(novel);

My 2nd favorite writer after Gregory Crouch.
Gregory Crouch

Social climber
Walnut Creek, California
Sep 13, 2016 - 01:30pm PT
No way, Spider. That dude has it all over me.
Tony

Trad climber
Pt. Richmond, CA
Sep 13, 2016 - 02:06pm PT
It's noteworthy that John Rae, an Arctic explorer from Orkney who did engage the "savages", became expert at survival and travel in cold climates. He closed the gap in the Northwest Passage and uncovered the fate of the Franklin expedition, including evidence of cannibalism. For this he was shunned by the British establishment led by Lady Franklin, along with Charles Dickens. No knighthood, etc.

A consolation is this wonderful memorial in St. Magnus Cathedral in Kirkwall, Orkney.
Gregory Crouch

Social climber
Walnut Creek, California
Sep 13, 2016 - 02:25pm PT
John Rae was a badass explorer, no doubt. As, I suspect, are most people who grow up in the Orkney Isles.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 13, 2016 - 02:36pm PT
Many of those who worked for the Hudson's Bay Company and the Northwest Company were from Scotland, with many from Orkney.

John Rae was an extraordinary explorer and traveler, who was unjustly vilified for reporting evidence and Inuit accounts that some on the Franklin expedition had resorted to cannibalism. Evidence confirmed by archaeology.

Certainly the searchers for Franklin eventually, desperately, mapped much of the central Arctic, even if they looked for Franklin's expedition just about everywhere but where it was supposed to be, and was found more than a decade later. Still, like Scott much later, their signal failure was of not learning from experience, and the evidence all around them. That is, that small groups, well prepared and using Inuit techniques, could successfully go where large groups could not. The epitome of their failure being their worship of "man hauling".

Scott didn't have much experience or choice on his first expedition to Antarctic (1901 - 04). Still, by his 1910 - 13 expedition, he had the advantage of his own hard-won experience, and that of the Sverdrup expedition in Fram that mapped much of the high Arctic (1898 - 1902), and Amundsen's voyage through the Northwest Passage (1903 - 06). That is, emphasizing the advantages of skiis, sleds, sled dogs, Inuit techniques, etc. Plus had Nansen emphasize its importance to him. Scott's failure to learn condemned him, as it had Franklin.
Gregory Crouch

Social climber
Walnut Creek, California
Sep 13, 2016 - 02:48pm PT
"I'm English and this is how an Englishman does it."

At least he kept his good form.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 13, 2016 - 02:52pm PT
Yup, no denying the extraordinary fortitude of them all. As we know now, the explorers all had their human flaws, but they did amazing things.
BruceHildenbrand

Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
Sep 13, 2016 - 05:12pm PT
I have always enjoyed reading Pierre Berton's book "The Arctic Grail" which deals with the quest for the Northwest Passage and the North Pole from 1818-1909. There is a lot of information about the Franklin Expedition and subsequent attempts to rescue them. Plus Pierre's Canadian.
TimH

Trad climber
Sep 13, 2016 - 06:04pm PT
All of our epics pale in comparison to Franklin's.

or Shackelton's

Or Greely's Lady Franklin Bay Expedition
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Sep 13, 2016 - 09:37pm PT
The Dan Simmons book referenced above, The Terror, is quite good, if you like your Victorian polar exploration tinged with a bit of supernatural horror.

For another lost polar ship story, try:

In the Kingdom of Ice by Hampton Sides, which is the story of the Jeannette, a US ship that suffered a fate similar to the Franklin expedition while searching for the warm paradise located near the North Pole.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 25, 2017 - 12:55pm PT
Amundsen's Maud, raised last summer at Cambridge Bay, will be returned to Norway this summer. She sank in 1931, but was well-preserved by the cold water. Which leads one to wonder what marine archaeologists might find in the wrecks of Erebus and Terror?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/maud-norway-cambridge-bay-amundsen-1.4175402
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 25, 2017 - 06:28pm PT
I saw a portrait of Franklin in the Queen's House Gallery adjacent to the National Maritime
Museum in Greenwich last week. I haven't transferred the pics from the camera yet but I
know yer all on tenterhooks!

That must have been a job raising the Maud from the muck! I guess Norge can afford it, eh?
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Jun 26, 2017 - 09:18pm PT
hey there say, anders... very interesting...

thanks for sharing... and all the side-shares, too...

oh, tami, say, i had seen a very 'dire' situation 'share' somewhere,
on the inuit situation, and them being forced to move off their lands, and into apartments, etc, but-- i can't remember who shared it, or where...

but, thanks for mentioning that bit about nutrition and all that, as,
it reminded me... was not sure even, as to what area that was, :(
in alaska, :( (not canada) ...
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 29, 2017 - 08:27pm PT
Believe it or not, the governments of Canada and of Nunavut are arguing about who "owns" the wrecks of Erebus and Terror. Canada didn't even become a country until 1867 C.E. (150 years ago Saturday), and didn't succeed to any claim that Britain had to that area until 1870. Nunavut, a territory and not a province, didn't exist per se until 1999. The ships sank by 1850.

The one about the unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible comes to mind.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/franklin-parks-canada-terror-erebus-uk-dive-nunavut-1.4181865
mcreel

climber
Barcelona
Jun 29, 2017 - 11:58pm PT
I did 5th grade in Ontario, and the story of the search for the NW passage was by far the coolest part.
BruceHildenbrand

Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
Jun 30, 2017 - 12:47am PT
One of the backstories that may or may not directly be a reason for the recently renewed search for the Terror and Erubus is that now with global warming there is the potential for vast amounts of natural resources in that area of Canada to be mined.

It is great that they have found both ships, but the future of that region, especially if global warming continues unabated, could be grim.
JerryA

Mountain climber
Sacramento,CA
Jun 30, 2017 - 07:47am PT
I first saw Amundsen' s 70 ft. "Gjoa " ,the first ship to traverse the Northwest Passage , in Golden Gate Park as a child & did not know what is was until much later .It was purchased by the Norwegian community in San Francisco in 1906 and returned to Norway in 1972.
BruceHildenbrand

Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
Jun 30, 2017 - 11:05am PT
Jerry,

very cool! Amundsen was the man! He was the first person to visit the South Pole. He was the first person to traverse the Northwest Passage. And, if you believe in simple math, he was the first person to visit the North Pole though that was by flying over it in a balloon.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 28, 2017 - 09:56pm PT
For serious Arctic/wooden ship restoration geeks only: http://frammuseum.no/polar_history/vessels/restoration_of_gjoa/

The ongoing saga, with lots of photos and history, regarding restoration of Amundsen's Gjøa. She is now housed at the Fram Museum, at Bygdøy in Oslo. Gjøa was built in 1873.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jul 28, 2017 - 10:40pm PT
http://www.pronouncekiwi.com/Gjoa

yo-a
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Jul 29, 2017 - 05:51am PT
Great stuff . Me loves the nautical history stuff.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 29, 2017 - 07:13am PT
Did somebody say 'nautical history'?

Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 10, 2017 - 03:28pm PT
Maud has been raised, and is on her way home, for the first time in a century.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/maud-to-return-to-norway-1.4242183

The CBC needs to work on its grammar, though. In proper English, all sailing and IIRC naval vessels are "she" or "her", never "it". Maud was in fact the name of the first queen of modern Norway, when she (countries are shes, too) regained full independence in 1905. Maud being a short form of Matilda, and in a few cases Margaret - both female names. And there's no need for a definite article ("the") before the name. Her name is Maud, not 'the' Maud.

Reilly's attempted act of piracy if not hijacking seems not to have made the intended waves.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 10, 2017 - 05:07pm PT
FYI, Mssr Stickler, my ship probably saw HMS Maud at some point.
I can almost guarantee they shared Portsmouth harbor. So there!
The thread was adrift so I tossed it a lifeline.

Furthermore, I guarantee that I am one of the few visitors that can show
you the ONLY cannon (of the 105) known to have been aboard at Trafalgar! ;-)
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 10, 2017 - 09:49pm PT
Maudit!

I guess that Reilly's boat is a replica of Nelson's Victory.
Nick Danger

Ice climber
Arvada, CO
Aug 11, 2017 - 06:33am PT
Bump for Tami's comments, which always (1) crack me up, or (2) leave me better informed (vitamin C from seal puke - who knew??).

Reilly typically gives good weight in the comments section as well. Boffo performance, lads and lasses.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 11, 2017 - 05:52pm PT
There's also a really good movie called Maudie, about a Canadian (Nova Scotian) artist named Maud Lewis: http://www.mongrelmedia.com/international/film/maudie.aspx

Not named after the boat, AFAIK, but well worth seeing.

This post endorsed by Reilly's cousin Vinnie.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 17, 2017 - 01:16pm PT
Maud is now in Aasiaat, Kalaalit Nunaat (Greenland) for the winter. She will be conveyed to Norway next summer.

"After 3 weeks of sailing MAUD and Tandberg Polar has reached Aasiaat, Greenland, safe and sound. We are extremely tired but happy to have arrived here in Aasiaat where Maud will stay this winter before continuing to Norway next summer.

Tricky ice conditions in the Northwest Passage and stormy weather across to Greenland gave us a good challenge, but Maud and Jensen as well as our crew stood the test. The old Queen of the ice is on her way home. We are full of joy and gratitude to be part of Maud´s journey back to her home country, after 100 years."

(From the "Maud Returns Home" website.)
BruceHildenbrand

Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
Sep 17, 2017 - 07:13pm PT
Interesting article on some apparent scribble(shorthand?) found in Shackleton's papers.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/d-brief/2017/09/12/shackleton-scribble-mystery/#.Wb8rIq0ss-q
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 17, 2017 - 07:56pm PT
Maud appears to be in remarkably good knick!
Hope I can see her in Bygdøy next summer.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 18, 2017 - 03:51pm PT
Jennie Darlington, one of the first females to overwinter in Antarctica, has died at 93. Sounds like quite a character!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/obituaries/jennie-darlington-participant-in-groundbreaking-antarctic-exploration-dies-at-93/2017/09/11/d91b52be-94d1-11e7-aace-04b862b2b3f3_story.html?utm_term=.e26f0995733a#comments

(OK, it's not about ships, but at least it's polar-related.)
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 24, 2017 - 02:25pm PT
Well, the British have now agreed that Canada may (more or less) keep Erebus and Terror. One can imagine the diplomatic and policy discussions that led up to what seemed a fait accompli...

Ownership of Sir John Franklin's shipwrecked vessels — which were recently discovered in the Canadian Arctic after years of searching — is being transferred from Britain to Canada.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/franklin-expedition-ships-canada-owner-1.4367419
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 30, 2017 - 08:20pm PT
Lots more about the discovery and exploration of the wrecks of Erebus and Terror, including kewl photos. Plus real Canadian content, about the Avro Arrow.
http://www.cbc.ca/news2/interactives/sh/tixaWyQzFX/what-lies-beneath/
BruceHildenbrand

Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
Dec 30, 2017 - 09:17pm PT
Anders,

cool! TFPU!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 31, 2017 - 09:14am PT
Mighty, thanks for the link; good stuff. Until now I hadn’t known that Terror and Erebus were
not ‘ships’. NTTAWW BRIGS! 🤓
BruceHildenbrand

Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
Dec 31, 2017 - 07:24pm PT
While Canadians are developing cool new tools and techniques to solve this centuries old mystery, Americans are producing a TV mini-series that throws science right out the old window(and a pretty high one at that):

Coming in March 2018 is 'The Terror':

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2708480/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

"The crew of a Royal Naval expedition searching for the Arctic's treacherous Northwest Passage discovers instead a monstrous predator."
BruceHildenbrand

Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
Mar 26, 2018 - 10:50am PT
Just a reminder that the AMC series "Terror" begins tonight, 3/26, at 9pm eastern/6pm pacific. Forget all the great archeology carried out by Parks Canada and get the real story behind the mystery from those crack historians in Hollywood.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 26, 2018 - 10:55am PT
A pity I don’t have TV. 🙀
But I will be checking out the HMS Terror exhibit at the Vancouver Maritime Museum in a week! 😊
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 26, 2018 - 01:24pm PT
I like to read books on polar expeditions like The Arctic Grail on hot summer days.

We had 2" of snow last night so its a bit soon.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Mar 26, 2018 - 07:31pm PT
How did I miss this?

But regarding all the comments about how Franklin's crew were too ignorant or proud or English or whatever to take note of the way the locals survived, I am reminded of Samuel Hearne's journey in the same region. After two previous attempts, he left Churchhill on the shore of Hudson's bay in 1772 and returned two years later, after treking overland to the mouth of the Coppermine River on the arctic shore, and back -- a total of about 5,000 miles.

I bring this up for two reasons. First, on his return to England he wrote a best-selling book about his journey. "Journey to the Northern Ocean", while relatively little known, is one of the best books of exploration and adventure ever written, and anyone even remotely interested in these subjects should buy it and read it (available for next to nothing on Amazon).

Second, note the dates. Hearne's book, published in 1795, and his lecture tours, were immensely popular. And the overwhelming takeaway was that the only way he survived once he was a few days from his base was by adopting -- completely -- the ways of the locals.

True, you can carry a lot more provisions in a boat than you can on your back, so perhaps the Franklin expedition did not set out in ignorance. I wasn't there. And they are hardly the only "civilized people" to die while ignoring the wisdom of the savages around them.

Still...
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 26, 2018 - 10:44pm PT
Anders, text me: Jeg skal blir med familien, men de er ikke så nautisk tilbøyelige. (jeg trenger trening for vår reise til Norge i tre månader)

And Tami is most welcome if she wants to look at some boats and a wreck.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 27, 2018 - 11:00am PT
Watched the Terror last night. Excellent production values, but terrible audio (too much background noise). Its a setup for sure, but it isn't the first arctic exploration movie to embroider on the facts (see The Red Tent).

So what is this monster? Sasquatch?
BruceHildenbrand

Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
Mar 27, 2018 - 11:36am PT
They are filming the arctic scenes on Pag Island in Croatia. I have spent some time there and it's pretty desolate, but I never imagined it would pass for the arctic. It's just below the 45th parallel!

Here's the book on which the series is based:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Terror_(novel);
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 27, 2018 - 12:30pm PT
I like to read books on polar expeditions like The Arctic Grail on hot summer days.

Ha! I spent weeks, during an incredible hot spell, at the Huntington Beach library reading about the search for the Northwest Passage. Franklin's story was the most interesting, but Verne's novel was pretty cool, too.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Mar 29, 2018 - 06:32am PT
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/29/inuit-oral-historian-who-pointed-way-to-franklin-shipwrecks-dies-aged-58?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+USA+-+Collections+2017&utm_term=269459&subid=19637531&CMP=GT_US_collection
Inuit oral historian who pointed way to Franklin shipwrecks dies aged 58

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 14, 2018 - 03:12pm PT
From this week’s The Economist...

Louie Kamookak died on March 22nd

The Inuit oral historian and finder of Sir John Franklin’s lost ships was 58


THE spot Louie Kamookak most wanted to see was one he had heard of when he was seven or so. He and his family were living out on the land then, in the northernmost parts of Canada, in canvas tents, hunting seals. One bedtime his great-grandmother Hummahuk told him a story of her own childhood. Her father had taken her to the north of King William Island to get driftwood, and there on a gravel ridge they had also picked up brown things, dark things: musket balls, spoons, forks, a silver dinner knife. She also remembered a big chain, or a big rope, going from the beach into the ocean. This image intrigued young Louie even more, for at the end of such a chain there surely had to be a ship. It stayed in his head from then on.

On King William Island, just by the North-West Passage, stories abounded of the qallunaat or white men who had come looking for the fabled north route to Asia or, after failed expeditions, for each other. Sir John Franklin had led three voyages; his last, in 1845, ended in the slow loss to the ice of both his ships, HMS Erebus and HMS Terror, and all their crews. Dozens of search parties found no trace of them. Until 2006, almost no people from the south thought to ask the Inuit about their disappearance. But Inuit elders, though they had no written history, knew of many clues.

Mr Kamookak spent his life gathering these. His method was simple. He visited local elders and listened while they spoke. Compared with tales of Amundsen, who had forced a ship through the North-West Passage in 1906, the Franklin stories were weaker, bits and pieces. A mast rising out of the sea, then a whole ship seen against the sunset. One ship sinking quickly, the other staying afloat through two winters. A party of qallunaat dragging a large boat on a sled. Desperate survivors blundering into Inuit tents, their faces black and the flesh gone from their gums. The arrival of white men had brought two of the coldest winters ever known, and cannibal spirits still haunted parts of the coast.

Words on the wind
One scene especially struck him. A hunting party had seen from a distance a ceremony involving white men and big bangs, like gunshots. It seemed to be a burial, but not in the Inuit way of leaving the body out on the land, wrapped in caribou skins, as his great-grandmother had been left. This was the burial of some shaman who, when the hunters ventured near, had turned to a slab of stone. He felt it must have been Franklin, who had died in June 1847: placed in a vault below a tall wooden structure which other Inuit had wrested from the ground for sleds, but which had probably been a cross.

In the way of oral history there were no names, no dates. His next job, therefore, was to match the spoken fragments with place-names—Mercy Bay, Starvation Cove—and with texts. He had few of those, but school had got him interested in reading, and one of his grandfathers, a white man who worked for the Hudson’s Bay Company, had been a Franklin searcher and written articles about him. He could start there. After a lucky meeting with Cameron Treleaven, an antiquarian bookseller from Calgary, he was sent a whole library of explorers’ accounts. His ramshackle house outside Gjoa Haven, with hot water drawn from a camping stove, also had the best internet connection in town. Here he read and read.

In the summers he also went out on his snow machine or ATV to look for traces left behind. With his trapper’s knowledge, he guided other searchers as he bounced over the rocky tundra and along the shore. He found a few tantalising things: a length of ancient, foreign rope in a circle of stones, and a shaman’s belt on which hung a rusty pair of pocket scissors. Year by year he relived the ordeal of the trudging, starving sailors and the route they might have taken southwards to grassier country, as well as a sense of where the ships had gone down. Instinct, as much as learning, led him to guide the Canadian government searchers to Erebus in 2014 and, two years later, to Terror. The official team had no idea for a while which the first ship was. With a huge grin, he knew at once: Erebus.

By this time he was himself an elder, passing on stories to the young in his deep, emphatic way, always word for word the same. Few things delighted him more than taking students out on the land in the summer, squeezing his bulky frame into a tent, eating dried fish and fried bannock (with Cheez Whiz as a favourite extra), recounting the lore of the past. Some mysteries had been solved but others remained, none more powerful than that burial of the shaman. If it was indeed Franklin it might bring fame to Gjoa Haven, and jobs for the young. It would also allow Franklin’s body to be returned to England, honouring him as an ancestor should be. He always imagined that he had been a good man.

For all his searching, he had never found the spot. But possibly his great-grandmother had. On that same journey when she had found the silver dinner knife, she had seen a mound that was the length of a human, and a stone with strange markings. The others would not go near it, or talk of it. Only her fading memory remained, in words that were blown away across the tundra. For him they were as tangible and forceful as any printed page, in any bound book.

This article appeared in the Obituary section of the print edition under the headline "To Franklin’s grave"

https://www.economist.com/news/obituary/21740384-inuit-oral-historian-and-finder-sir-john-franklins-lost-ships-was-58-louie-kamookak-died
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Apr 14, 2018 - 03:25pm PT
Thank you! Fascinating. Only 58, so sad.

Big problems in our Canadian north - a "welfare mentality" exists. You reach 18, you get "cash for life". No incentive to become better, only to exist.

Alcoholism and drug abuse are rampant. Inuit are missing a key enzyme that helps white men like me process alcohol - one drink for me equates to like five drinks for them. Alcohol is a controlled substance. Things get bad at the first of the month when they hand out the welfare cheques.

One July 1st in while driving through the reserve south of Pickle Lake, Ontario - driving to a fly-in paddle-out canoe trip, as far north in Ontario as you can go by car - I had to literally drive AROUND natives who were passed out in the middle of the highway! In Pickle Lake, we watched a native lady walk straight into a tree, she was so drunk.

The story of Franklin and his disappearance is one of the great Canadian mysteries. Little by little, we learn more.

TFPU!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 18, 2018 - 06:44pm PT
Maud is well on her way from Kalaalit Nunaat to Asker.

Dean Hadley, the last surviving member of the crew of St. Roch in 1940 - 42, when she made the second transit of a Northwest Passage (the first W - E), has died at age 98.
https://vancouvermaritimemuseum.com/news/dean-hadley-remembered

Then St. Roch did it again, in 1944, from E - W, via Parry Channel and Prince of Wales Strait. But Hadley wasn't in the crew then.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 18, 2018 - 10:20pm PT
In 2008, Mr. Trudeau’s predecessor, Stephen Harper, apologized to indigenous people in the rest of Canada for a residential school program the federal government operated from the 19th century until 1996. A national Truth and Reconciliation Commission later condemned that system as a form of “cultural genocide.”

Ditto U.S. and Australia...

"The great aim of our legislation has been to do away with the tribal system and assimilate the Indian people in all respects with the other inhabitants of the Dominion as speedily as they are fit to change.” 1887 - John A McDonald. Architect of the Indian Act.


tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jul 19, 2018 - 07:51am PT
I spent over a month in Nunavut pulling teeth a couple years ago. Now the Canadian government has to py them weekly, not monthly. They would starve to death otherwise because fridays they get money and go spend it all by Monday. They werre paying $10 for a can of Coke but the Canadian government subsidizes healthy food so it is cheap. I ate the same as at home, for same price. Junk food is in demand and expensive. It also trashes teeth so two year olds never had any of the front teeth remaining. I could only take out the rotting abscessed root tips. They usually didnt let me touch the kids because they played this game where once it got bad enough, the dentist would have to refer them to to Winnipeg for surgery at the children’s dental hospital. Which meant an all expense paid shopping vacation for the mother and kid to the big city. Sick.

If it hadn’t been for the Cold War they would have been left up nrth and not lost their nomadic lifestyle. Now they live in homes at each norad runway along the Dew Line.
mooch

Trad climber
Tribal Base Camp (Riverkern Annex)
Jul 19, 2018 - 08:40am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 20, 2018 - 12:37am PT
Joseph and others are quite right. The French then British colonists often treated the First Peoples abominably, by accident (introduced diseases), deliberately (military conquest) or unintentionally (as my father always said, the road to hell is paved with good intentions, e.g. residential schools). The largely repulsive residentials schools being just a symptom of general government neglect and callousness, of the sort that led it to shift numerous families 1,500 km north to Grise Fjord on Ellesmere, just to bolster nominal claims to real sovereignty in the area. And in the bigger picture, the cultures of the First Peoples were often overwhelmed by the incomers.

In most of Canada, it took one to three centuries to really screw things up, so may take a similar time to find a new and healthy equilibrium. First Peoples in urban areas are often doing OK - someone from the Squamish Nation is running for mayor of Vancouver this year, and may win. Likewise, the increased emphasis on teaching and learning First Languages - the Slexwts (Squamish-English) dictionary is remarkable.

As tooth says, remote First Peoples are having a much harder time adjusting - not that they necessarily should have to adjust. They've often lost their traditional cultures, and such southern practices as take their place are often not healthy.

Not simple problems to solve, and it requires effort and good will from everyone. That said, it's an issue which is a bit off thread, and maybe couold be discussed elsewhere here.

I was hoping to stick in this thread with European exploration and activity in the mid and high Arctic and related things, with all due recognition of the natives on whom they often depended. Some of the more recent publications do a fairer job of giving credit to Inuit and sometimes Cree or Greenlander support and knowledge, whether in the 19th century or now.

Some probably heard of the recent deaths of three thrill-seekers at the top of Shannon Falls at Squamish. (It seems fair to describe a group calling itself "High on Life" thrill seekers, given their record.) In any event, the Squamish Nation plans a traditional cleansing ceremony, such as should follow such tragedies: https://thetyee.ca/News/2018/07/17/Squamish-Plans-Cleansing-Ceremony/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_content=071718-3&utm_campaign=editorial-0718

Fun fact: Reilly is a survivor of Franklin's expedition.

Anyway, back to weird things done under the midnight sun, please.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 22, 2018 - 05:06pm PT
Spinning another related yarn: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/vikings-yarn-inuit-research-1.4757237
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 5, 2018 - 07:49pm PT
Maud has returned to Norway, a century after she left on July 18th, 1918. (18/7/18 - a Symmetry Day!)

Early last night Maud passed Hellisøy Lighthouse and crossed her own trail from 100 years ago. She has finally completed the circle around the North Pole and Maud has returned home to Norway. This morning Maud can be seen outside Bryggen in Bergen before continuing her journey towards her final destination Vollen and Asker next Saturday the 18th of August.

http://www.maudreturnshome.no/

Maud is one of the few surface vessels to have (sort of) circumnavigated the North Pole via a Northwest Passage and the Northern Sea Route aka Northeast Passage.

I wonder if this will give anyone ideas about raising Erebus and Terror?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 5, 2018 - 09:51pm PT
Takk for det, Anders.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 6, 2018 - 01:33pm PT

Maud in Bergen today

Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 18, 2018 - 10:05am PT
Maud returned safely to Asker today.

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/maud-returns-home-norway

https://www.altaposten.no/lokalt/NTB/NTB_innenriks/2018/08/18/Polarskuta-Maud-skapte-folkefest-i-Asker-17350171.ece

20 - 30 vessels annually transit a northwest passage now, including several tourist vessels. As many or more transit the Northern Sea Route. Ron, you can buy your tickets any time!
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 18, 2018 - 10:43am PT
Attempting both passages will likely become far more commonplace as a result of climate change melting sea ice and GPS navigation.

I wonder about sailing around the entire Americas, perhaps a figure 8 using Panama.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2018 - 11:11am PT
The Soviets, and now Russians, have been using the Northern Sea Route for extensive commercial (and military) traffic since the 1930s. The expeditions of Taymyr and Vaygach from 1910 - 1915 did a lot to chart the area, plus discovered Severnaya Zemlya. And the odd US submarine uses the Northeast Passage, too.

Parks Canada's aim this year is to explore the wreck of Erebus, including Franklin's cabin, to see what can be found. They have about a two week window to work within. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/franklin-expedition-ship-secrets-1.4811820
BruceHildenbrand

Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
Sep 9, 2018 - 11:54am PT
Anders,

2 weeks? Do they have enough beer for the entire duration?
okay, whatever

climber
Sep 9, 2018 - 12:19pm PT
Yes, the story of the Shackleton expedition, and the few that managed to survive it in the end, is one of the most remarkable survival stories out there. "Endurance", by Alfred Lansing, is a great read about that ordeal.

BruceHildenbrand

Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
Sep 9, 2018 - 12:24pm PT
^^^^^^
I think the major point about the Shackleton Expedition is that they all survived it. Some on the Ross Sea party perished(not covered in the book Endurance), but all those with Sir Ernst survived.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 9, 2018 - 12:46pm PT
Mighty, when is the theme park scheduled to be built?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2018 - 03:49pm PT
Continuing the maritime and polar theme:

Archaeologists have uncovered the remains of a Viking ship, burial mounds and Iron Age homes right next to the busy E6 freeway near Halden in southeast Norway. The discovery is already being hailed as “sensational.”

(It looks quite a lot like Klimmer's photo of his imaginary ark.)

The existing three major discoveries date to the late 19th century - the Gokstad, Oseberg and Tune ships, on display at the VIking ship house in Oslo.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/oct/15/viking-ship-burial-discovered-in-norway-just-50cm-underground?

And in answer to Ron's question, St. Roch was the first vessel to circumnavigate North America, via the Panama Canal. There was talk in 1913 of Fram returning from Antarctic via the newly opened canal, making her the first vessel to transit, but in the end it didn't occur.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Oct 15, 2018 - 04:30pm PT
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2018 - 05:25pm PT
Having sailed in a half-scale replica of the Gokstad ship, although only in Vancouver harbour, I can report that they flex. A lot.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Oct 16, 2018 - 09:25am PT
I meant the NW Passage and Cape Horn in one voyage.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 16, 2018 - 01:39pm PT
Probably the first to circumnavigate South America was one of the first vessels through Panama Canal in 1914, a freighter or such that had previously gone through Drake Passage or the Straits of Magellan.

It's possible - indeed likely - that a submarine has circumnavigated the Americas, although not via Panama. But we may never know.

Several vessels, mostly military or coast guard, transited a Northwest Passage between 1944 and 1976. Whether any had also gone around South America being the question.

Willy de Roos may have been the first to circumnavigate the Americas, in Williwaw in 1976.
http://www.nauticapedia.ca/Articles/NWP_Fulltransits.php
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Oct 16, 2018 - 01:48pm PT
Trust me, US subs have traversed every navigable passage on the planet.

While the Vikings had no equals nobody except St Brendan matches up to Joshua Slocum.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Oct 17, 2018 - 12:56pm PT
You mean this Brendan guy exposed himself to a 12 year old girl too?

Was he appointed to the Supreme Court?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Oct 17, 2018 - 01:12pm PT
Toker, it’s OK, he was a saint.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Oct 17, 2018 - 05:29pm PT
Was Slocum a climber? He writes an autobiography and his boat is named Spray.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 3, 2018 - 06:06pm PT
Well, Joshua Slocum was a Canadian, so not likely to spray in that sense of the word.

And I rather doubt that even the US Navy has taken submerged submarines through Suez and Panama Canals. Maybe on the surface..

Was at the maritime museum this afternoon with a cousin, and yes, St. Roch was the first vessel to circumnavigate North America, but in two separate voyages, ending with her return to Vancouver via Panama in 1954.

As for the frigate HMS Helge Ingstad colliding with two other vessels, in calm clear weather: https://www.newsinenglish.no/2018/11/08/probes-launched-into-frigate-crash/

(Some of the recent NATO exercises were in Rendalen, not too far from Finnskogen.)
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 8, 2018 - 08:54am PT
And speaking of ignominy, I am mortified that my hero’s name should be brought so low...

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 5, 2018 - 10:10am PT
Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Dec 5, 2018 - 10:54am PT
And I rather doubt that even the US Navy has taken submerged submarines through Suez and Panama Canals. Maybe on the surface..

Commonly passed through.

Speaking of Panama and submarines...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_H._Kroehl

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2018/10/12/remains-of-us-submarine-innovator-exhumed-in-panama/

Crazy ol' history...
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 5, 2018 - 11:03am PT
And I rather doubt that even the US Navy has taken submerged submarines through Suez and Panama Canals. Maybe on the surface..

Which crankloon wrote that, except tongue in cheek? Like the Navy would expose a sub
to the dangers of the locks for so long? Not to mention making it easier to track, if only
for a while. Besides, not much point to having our subs in the Caribbean - the Venezuelan
navy is one in name only.

But thanks for the link on Kroehl. I’m embarrassed to admit I’ve not heard of him, but then
subs are rather of lower interest to me.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2018 - 07:51pm PT
Bet if you check you'll find that there are always US warships stationed in the vicinity of both ends of the Panama Canal. (And submarines, except that information on their location is no doubt secret.) As the Cuban missile crisis reinforced, the canal is a US strategic asset, to which no possible threat will be tolerated. Some of the smaller military vessels probably transit the canal, to show the flag, but they'd keep the big ones, and of course submarines, away. It not only discloses their exact location, they'd be sitting ducks.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jan 7, 2019 - 10:34am PT

Mighty Hiker.

Not my comment, but from the man himself, Ousland, the horse's mouth:

As the news of Mr. O’Brady’s “first” spread across the media, Mr. Ousland wrote magnanimously on his Facebook page, “We congratulate Colin O’Bradly [sic] with his achievements in Antarctica.” But he added that he “was the first person to ski alone across Antarctica.” As he told me in an email: “It should not be necessary for me to have to stand up and fight for my ‘honor.’ I believe that I should be credited as the first to have crossed Antarctica solo and unsupported from coast to coast. Period.”

Previously posted by Reilly on another thread.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 23, 2019 - 12:16pm PT
Norway’s newly expanded government has specifically mentioned in its new platform that a new museum to house the country’s famed Viking ships will indeed be built. There’s still been no specific funding allocation for the project, but University of Oslo officials are relieved.

https://www.newsinenglish.no/2019/01/21/viking-ships-seem-saved-after-all/?fbclid=IwAR2eSkgw27Fj0yFyASYtvaT9Kxx9VGERBdkATmaKOXZC3a6BQkjdoZMQuJM
BruceHildenbrand

Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
Jan 26, 2019 - 04:50am PT
Photo of the Roald Amundsen(a few boats with this name) at dock in the harbor at Valle Gran Rey, La Gomera.


https://sailtraininginternational.org/vessel/roald-amundsen/

https://www.vesselfinder.com/vessels/ROALD-AMUNDSEN-IMO-8994489-MMSI-211215170
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2019 - 09:51pm PT
And now an icebreaker hopes to reach the location in the Weddell Sea where Shackleton's vessel Endurance sank in November 1915. The coordinates were precisely measured by Frank Worsley, the skipper, and if the icebreaker Agulhas can reach it, the area will be surveyed with submersibles. She probably lies in several thousand m of water.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/27/antarctic-expedition-upbeat-about-hope-of-finding-shackletons-ship-endurance-weddell-sea
ionlyski

Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
Jan 28, 2019 - 07:43am PT
She probably lies in several thousand m of water.

Wow Anders I never would have imagined. Whenever you look at the rudimentary maps that were drawn out at the time, you get the feeling the ship was just of the mainland coast. Don't know why that would lead me to think it was shallow water but that's the way I had it in mind.

Did they leave much behind on the ship, with all the time they had to make those decisions?

Arne
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 28, 2019 - 08:30am PT
Somewhat interesting but it seems like an expensive effort just for some photos.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2019 - 09:06am PT
Lots more information, plus map. http://geographical.co.uk/people/explorers/item/2685-weddell-sea-finding-the-endurance

Suggests she is "over a mile deep", FWIW. The location is exact, not sure how precisely they know her depth. Other sources indicate up to 3,000 m.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 28, 2019 - 09:11am PT
That far south solar sextant shots are harder to achieve accuracy although the ship wasn’t rocking and he might have also done a lunar shot so the position could well be quite good, at least as good as his chronometer(s) were.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2019 - 09:17am PT
The location where Endurance sank is known exactly, from a long series of observations taken by Worsley (and others) while she was beset, and just before she sank. They were surveying from a solid platform on the ice. She may of course have skewed as she sank, and so be a short distance away.

68°39'30.0" South and 52°26'30.0" West when she sank. Seems pretty exact.

https://weddellseaexpedition.org/news/weddell-sea-expedition-moves-on-to-endurance-wreck-site/
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 28, 2019 - 09:27am PT
The chronometers are the issue most likely.

“ Accuracies of less than 10 nautical miles (19 km) error in position are difficult to achieve using the "longitude by chronometer" method.” 🤓
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2019 - 09:32am PT
For a single observation, seems reasonable. For a series of observations taken over the year that Endurance was beset before she sank, probably using several chronometers, you'd think it would average out.

Perhaps Guido is around and can comment? He's a naughtycal fellow.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 28, 2019 - 09:45am PT
I suspect an accuracy within a mile or so is reasonable to assume. I would think they have
side-scanning sonar to make it even easier.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 28, 2019 - 09:57am PT
A description of Worseleys’s trust in the chronometer: ( only one is mentioned)

First. He guided the crew of the Dudley Docker to Elephant Island ( 20 miles across) exactly where he calculated. Though they lost sight of each other, all three boats landed on the same beach.

Upon leaving the Island in the James Caird,

There was no margin for error as the James Caird would sail into the South Atlantic if he missed the island; this would mean almost certain death for those in the lifeboat but also those remaining on Elephant Island. Fortuitously, the weather was fine on the day of departure from the island and this allowed Worsley to obtain a sun sighting to ensure that his chronometer was rated.

He was only able to take a few sightings on the way to SGeorgia and warned Shackleton that he expected accuracy of only 10 miles, so they aimed for S. Georgia’s West side .

On 8 May, through mists and squalls, the crew sighted South Georgia's Cape Demidov, precisely in line with the course calculated by Worsley.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 28, 2019 - 10:06am PT
THE OG chronometer...


Back then a commoner would be lucky to earn £50/ year!
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 28, 2019 - 10:12am PT
And a description of the fate of the chronometer on the James Caird.

The chronometer and a small watch were bequeathed to SPRI in 1943 by
F.A. Worsley, with the information recorded in the accession register
that they were used for navigation during the voyage of the lifeboat
James Caird from Elephant Island to South Georgia. Frank Worsley
recorded that "this chronometer, an excellent one of Smith's, was the
sole survivor, in good working order, of the twenty-four with which we
set out in the Endurance."
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 28, 2019 - 10:14am PT
24? Not taking any chances, were they? Well, with navigation anyway.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 28, 2019 - 10:19am PT
They also had the pocket watch :-)
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 28, 2019 - 10:25am PT
the whole navigation kit on the James Caird.

I can’t tell if the sextant has an artificial horizon.


Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 28, 2019 - 10:34am PT
Hmmm. Headed to Cambridge in May. Might have to make time for the Scott Polar Research Institute! Thanks!

I can almost guarantee that an artificial horizon was not even an option back then.
They are virtually useless at sea. Of course, frozen into the ice they would be useful
but the sextant would have had to have been custom made. Not saying that wasn’t a
possibility but not very likely IMHO, especially seeing as how they are still very rare.
BruceHildenbrand

Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
Jan 28, 2019 - 12:29pm PT
Those interested in the history of navigation at sea will find the book 'Longitude' a good read.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4806.Longitude
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 28, 2019 - 12:34pm PT
Artificial horizons came into use by 1907, so they would have been cutting edge for Shackleton’s expedition. It’s not out of the question that an expedition with 24 chronometers might have one. The admiralty had been looking for on for 100 years previous.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/an-artificial-horizon-for-sextants/

And you are right, it would have been very difficult to steady the horizon bubble at sea, but we are talking Worseley. The method used was to judge the ends of oscillation of the bubble.

And I had mentioned it because they did take observations on the pack ice and it would have been useful there, and a sketchy sight at sea might have been better than trying to guesstimate a foggy horizon in large long period waves.

If there is one on that sextant I don’t see it .
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 28, 2019 - 12:38pm PT
I was blown away by the exhibit at the Field Museum where a life sized reproduction of the James Caird was surround by screens depicting rough seas.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 28, 2019 - 12:47pm PT
I doubt he took all 24 chronos on the Caird so the ones with the artificial horizon would have been dead weight. I guess back then they must have been made for landlubber surveying and such, eh? As an aside, those guys back then were pretty amazing with their dead reckoning when there was no horizon, or anything celestial, factoring log ‘heaving’, currents, and leeway. Well towards the end of the 1800’s many merchant captains got by on rudimentary celestial skills. Of course, if they got within 10-20 miles they were likely to make a good landfall as long as their lookout could see.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 28, 2019 - 12:48pm PT
As an interesting side note, the impact crater exactly at the South Pole of the moon is named Shackleton.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 28, 2019 - 12:51pm PT
And another coinkidink is that the 2024 total eclipse path will pass right down Main St of the tiny town in Ohio where John Glenn grew up!
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 28, 2019 - 12:51pm PT
Reilly. They took one chronometer on the Caird, the one in the pictures.

I don’t know of any chronometers which have artificial horizons. It’s pretty certain that if there were an artificial horizon, it would be on a sextant.
From memory, I think they had six of those on the expedition, ( or they took six from Endurance) but it’s been years since I read the books. Several were to be used to reach the pole or cross Antarctica, the purpose of the expedition.

And an artificial horizon is used at sea, especially in polar waters wher often a sun sight is only through a break in the clouds and the horizon is though to sight.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 28, 2019 - 12:59pm PT
Brain fart about chronos with art hor. 🤡

Kinda surprised they only took one sextant on the Caird. Talk about putting all yer eggs in one sextant!
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 28, 2019 - 01:04pm PT
It was a polar expedition. At least some of the chronometers would have gone on the sleds. They probably ditched them as superfluous when Endurance sank.

And I’ll bet some were left on Elephant island
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 28, 2019 - 01:11pm PT
Brain fart about chronos with art hor. 🤡

Well, some were gymballed for accuracy, so maybe....


[edit] that thing is called a quartz box clock, not a chronometer, by Weems.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 28, 2019 - 03:11pm PT
( shown with the star finder scope reputed to have “fantastic” optics.)

Shackleton geeks have worked which sextant was used to death, it turns out.

Shackleton and Worseley were both Ships masters and would have had their own sextant, as did Endurance’s navigator, Hudson.

Shackleton and Hudson owned Hezzanith sextant of a triangle design. Worseley owned a bell pattern design Hezzanith sextant.

The one Worseley used on the Caird voyage according to him was the one he borrowed from Hudson. There is no horizon bubble on it

In his book he describes taking sights from wave top while being lashed to the mast and held by shipmates.

Several sextants get paraded around as being Shackleton’s sextant used on the James Caird. Apparently that is less than accurate.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2019 - 03:26pm PT
Thanks, Lorenzo! Who knew? Navigation and Shackleton geeks aside, that is.

Most of Worsley's observations would have been taken on and near Endurance, while she was frozen in the ice. In other words, from a remarkably stable platform. The observations from the voyages to Elephant Island, and then South Georgia, being in quite another class.

We must Endeavour (Cook's ship, the command module on one of the Apollo missions, and one of the space shuttles), so as to have Endurance. Fortitudine Vincimus
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 28, 2019 - 03:54pm PT
I’ll admit to being a little bit of a Shackleton geek myself. It’s hard not to be fascinated by the whole endeavor. ( endeavour?.. no wait. That was Cook)

When I was a kid I shipped aboard a pleasure cruise between Long Island and Bermuda. I took sights on pretty calm Gulf Stream waters. One day in the middle of the voyage the guy who owned the boat took my sights without checking them, which focused my mind.

I’m not sure what it would have been like in the conditions Worseley had.


Now you can just use the GPS on your iPhone.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 28, 2019 - 04:24pm PT
Still pissed they killed mrs. Chippy.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mrs_Chippy
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2019 - 04:35pm PT
^^^Perce Blackborrow, the stowaway. Crean looked a LOT tougher.

Wooden vessels usually had a cat to keep down rodents, who was frequently named "Mrs. Chippy". The ship's carpenter of course being Mr. Chippy. Somewhat ahead of its time, Mrs. Chippy on Endurance was male.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 28, 2019 - 04:36pm PT
You might be right. I’m working from memory.
Blackborow. Signed on as first to be eaten.
He foiled that Plan by getting gangrene. Spoiled meat.

I’m sure that is mrs Chippy.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 28, 2019 - 04:53pm PT
Tom Crean with pups ( also murdered)



Crean was a shipmate from the Discovery Expedition, 1901–04, and had also been with Scott's Terra Nova Expedition in 1910–13, where he had distinguished himself on the fatal polar march.

He was the second guy Shackleton chose after Worseley for the Georgia island trip.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 28, 2019 - 05:27pm PT
Hey! I got an idea.

Let’s go sail 800 miles in the Southern Ocean.

Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2019 - 09:38pm PT
There's also the Sextant Handbook: https://www.celestaire.com/product/the-sextant-handbook/

My father, a professional engineer with considerable experience surveying, thought it was quite good.

From Amundsen's "The South Pole": Among the instruments belong to the Fram I may mention a pendulum apparatus, an excellent astronomical theodolite, and a sextant. Lieutenant Prestrud studied the use of the pendulum apparatus under Professor Schiotz and the use of the astronomical theodolite under Professor Geelmuyden. We had in addition several sextants and artificial horizons, both glass and mercury." Also "Of the instrument and apparatus for the sledge journeys we carried two sextants, three artificial horizons, of which two were glass horizons with dark glasses, and one a mercury horizon.." They used the artificial horizon at the pole.

Shackleton's "South" simply refers to their taking a 'sextant' on James Caird. No details, although probably their log says more.

So state of the art, using artificial horizons, given that Fram sailed from Norway in midsummer 1910. Most such equipment then was made in Germany, and I suspect that the manufacturers got good promotion out of sending it to polar regions.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 28, 2019 - 09:51pm PT
Most such equipment then was made in Germany, and I suspect that the manufacturers got good promotion out of sending it to polar regions.

The threee sextants mentioned were ‘Hezzanith’ models made by Heath & co, New Eltham, London.

After a couple buyouts, they are still made, though modern ones are aluminum alloy.
I doubt the Admiralty would have been in the habit of purchasing instruments from a foreign power.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2019 - 01:59pm PT
Good point. It'd be interesting to learn the origins of the scientific and navigation instruments taken on the various expeditions, not just sextants. By 1910 German scientists and engineers, and European scientists and engineers generally, had in many ways surpassed the British, so the quality of their instruments may have been a bit better.

For the 1903 - 06 voyage of Gjøa through the Northwest Passage, Amundsen got instruction in measuring magnetic fields, and instruments, in Germany, which was then leader in that field. Likewise it's interesting that in 1909 - 10 he went to Germany for much of his instrumentation - when he could have had his pick.

Of course, all the polar expeditions of that time were heavily staffed with experienced navigators, whatever instruments they had. Shackleton may have been a bit lax - did they really get to within 100 miles of the pole in 1909, based on dead reckoning? - but he's generally accorded that. Amundsen and Scott were scrupulously careful with regard to observations, having learned the Cook/Peary lesson. Although amusingly Amundsen forgot to take the tables for 1912 with him, which meant they had to get to the pole by December 31st.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 29, 2019 - 03:03pm PT
You are making too much of this superior engineering thing. The best chronometers were British ofr Swiss from the Harrison invention on. ( modern quartz watches are probably as accurate)

Sextants, while they are precision instruments, ain’t rocket science.

I made a sextant 60 years ago for a science project that was accurate to about 10’ of arc. Plastic sheet, a couple compact mirrors, a little dime store scope, and a sharpie. I scratched out the degree markings and used a vernier swing arm. To make things easier, I made it about 50% larger than a normal sextant.

Since one minute of arc equals one nautical mile of latitude, that’s the ten miles Worseley was claiming as his accuracy with his sights. At 60° south latitude, longitude sightings would be twice that accurate since one minute of arc longitude is a half mile at 60°

The moon or sun look pretty big in the sky. Their diameter is only 30 minutes of arc.

There is a Davis mark 15 sextant that is accurate to about 3-5 miles that is made of molded ABS plastic like a Revelle model airplane.
https://www.starpath.com/catalog/accessories/1840d15.htm
That’s line of sight to your objective.
An even cheaper Mark 3 has been around for more than 50 years and is in lots of emergency kits. I’ve seen them for about $35 and they will get your ten miles.

Even with the best metal sextant, you aren’t getting closer that 1/2 to 1 mile even on dry land. Atmospheric refraction just doesn’t allow any better without LOTs of number crunching that just isn’t done in navigation.s
( refraction of the atmosphere is a lot more near the horizon, and air temperature matters)

Real navigators get better accuracy with multiple sights on different celestial objects. And seeing how lines of position converge.

It just isn’t that big a deal. What’s more important is the user, just as honnold can climb better in bedroom slippers than most of us can in the best sticky rubber

I won’t even get into Sven Yvrind’s bris sextant. Costs maybe a dollar. With care, you can navigate to Worseley accuracy - maybe easier than with a real sextant because you use your head to hold it steady.
https://web.archive.org/web/20071011212818/http://www.cassens-plath.de/catalog_web/096e_web.html
You do have to calibrate it. A day on the beach and some maths.

Then there is the guy who went around the world with no instruments ( not even a compass) and made landfall within 20 miles using only ancient traditional methods and a good star almanac.
http://blog.geogarage.com/2012/09/circumnavigate-globe-without-instruments.html

I think a Polynesian canoe also did it.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2019 - 09:50pm PT
Tonight's field trip was to Vancouver's maritime museum, where there was a talk on the discovery of the wrecks of Erebus (2014) and Terror (2016), off the coast of King William Island. It was by Captain Bill Noon, commander of HMCS Sir Wilfrid Laurier - the base vessel. It was very kewl. Neat stuff:

 What's left of the deck of Erebus is about 10 m below the surface, so they can dive there in the spring. They set up on the ice, which is 2+ m thick, hang some big lights underneath, and go to work. Her stern is in the process of caving in, and with increasing exposure to current due to lessening ice in the area, the priority is to protect her. The superstructure and deck seem to have been scoured by large icebergs.

 Terror is in Terror Bay. Which was named before her wreck was discovered. Inuit tradition was that it was there, also there was a lot of anecdotal evidence. They searched there because an Inuit from Gjøa Havn said he'd seen a mast protruding in the area, and struck gold after only 2.5 hours with a side scan radar. Except that her deck is almost 30 m below the surface - her masts could never have protruded, as they weren't that high. At any rate, that wreck is in much better condition, and safer from changing conditions, so they're leaving it for now. The bowsprit is even still there! However, they've done some work, which amongst other things shows plates on the tables in the officers' mess. Which in turn suggests that things like the ship's log might still be there, and retrievable, which would provide information as to what happened until she was finally abandoned.

 One artifact on Terror was a sextant. It was hard to tell whether it was made in Britain or Germany, but the word "Lorenzo" could almost be made out in tiny letters.

 Even though multi-year (tough) ice isn't as common or thick as it once was, the southern Northwest Passage through that area wasn't passable at all in 2018, unless you had a serious icebreaker.

 Only about 13% of Canada's Arctic - Hudson's Bay, and everything above 60 north - has been charted to modern standards. The southern passage involves a lot of shallow water, and the northern has more ice.

 The exact locations aren't public, are legally protected, and they're watching from satellite. In fact, one of Noon's friends was navigating a private boat through the area, and those who must be obeyed called from a bunker in Ottawa, to ask who it was and what it was doing. No grave robbing allowed.

Captain Noon had some fun stories. When they first found Erebus, they scrambled around to find the "WHAT TO DO IF YOU FIND SOMETHING INTERESTING" manual, which no one had bothered to look at. (Our then prime minister was quite keen on this stuff.) The sort of thing that the multitudes of bureaucracies involved produce. When they found it, the first substantive thing it said was "TOP SECRET". Which, when you're a captain of a coast guard vessel in the Arctic, isn't hard to do. You just have to pull one plug, and there's complete radio silence. No wifi up there. #2, it said that all the senior people had to fly to Ottawa, so the politicians could pose with them. (Obviously written by a bureaucrat who knew little about maritime matters.) So Noon calls the prime minister's office, reports what has happened, and they tell him to fly to Ottawa. Whereupon he in effect says "I'm the captain, and I'll be damned if I'll leave my ship." So the PMO called the officer in charge of the coast guard, who replied. They said "We're calling about Captain Noon", and the officer said "Now what's he done?" In the end Noon stayed with his ship.

(Sir Wilfrid Laurier was one of Canada's great prime ministers, and our first of Quebecois heritage. I went to a school named for him.)

ps Slocum didn't have a sextant!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 31, 2019 - 10:12pm PT
Very good reportage, Mighty, especially about the sextant. What a find!

her masts could never have protruded, as they weren't that high
I beg to differ after looking at the various paintings extant of HMS Terror, a proper ship’s name if there ever was. She was 102’ so her main mast would normally have been close to her length as indeed it appears in the paintings. The paintings of her in New Zealand appear to show her with topgallant masts swayed to height of seemingly 130’. In the Arctic she most certainly would not have used her topgallants often. I would think that the Inuit’s story more than credible especially considering the hull has sunk, or collapsed, a good 20’ from its initial position.

Apparently Ottawa bureaucrats have a very poor understanding of their country’s geography, let alone their Coast Guard’s standing orders.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2019 - 10:21pm PT
Granted that a mast might have just protruded from the water when Terror first sank - but after 170 years of pounding by ice bergs? Not a chance.

There are scheduled flights to and from Gjøa Haven. Noon could simply have gotten on Laurier's helicopter and flown there, thence to Ottawa. Somehow the PMO would have figured it all out - a few days later the prime minister flew there for the photo op. The expedition had major government backing.

The main feature at the maritime museum is of course St. Roch - second vessel to transit a northwest passage, first to do so from W - E, first to do it both ways, first to circumnavigate North America. As fascinating as Fram in Norway. St. Roch is almost exactly the same length as Erebus and Terror. Granted that she had good diesel engines, but she also had sails, and her crew was usually ten or less. Erebus and Terror had 60 or more, in much the same space.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 31, 2019 - 10:22pm PT
Oh, I was thinking the reference was from BITD. Unnskyld! 🤡
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Feb 1, 2019 - 12:06am PT
I always wondered what happened to that sextant.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Feb 1, 2019 - 12:42am PT
ps Slocum didn't have a sextant!

Of course he did. From “sailing alone around the World”:

“On the forty-third day from land,—a long time to be at sea alone,—the sky being beautifully clear and the moon being "in distance" with the sun, I threw up my sextant for sights. I found from the result of three observations, after long wrestling with lunar tables, that her longitude by observation agreed within five miles of that by dead-reckoning.”

Excerpt From
Sailing Alone Around the World
Joshua Slocum
a few paragraphs later he talks about discovering an error in the lunar tables during these observations.

I think he also took along an old octant, the older, often wooden version of the instrument.

Octants could measure 90°, so they could measure the elevation of the sun or moon to find latitude just fine.

Sextants came into use to find Greenwich mean time and thus longitude by a method called lunar distance even before chronometers were invented. Isaac Newton and Edmund Halley worked out the celestial mechanics to do that and from about 1763 to 1850 longitude was usually found by the method of lunar distance. Tables were regularly published, and you can even get an APP to create your own tables to this day. After 1850, chronometers came into general use and lunar distance was only used to check your chronometers.

The moon moves through the sky at about its own diameter (1/2° ) per hour. If you can measure it’s position accurately against the background stars you can tell GMT by its position, and thus your longitude. The tables used the sun or bright stars near the ecliptic, Regulus and Sirius being a couple of them.

But that often meant making measurements accurately by as much as 120° which requires the larger swing of the sextant.

He tells a story in his book about being able to navigate to Nukahiva in the pacific with complete accuracy with the lunar distance method..
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_distance_(navigation);

It was the same sextant he used on his ship the destroyer, and then used on the ramshackle boat Liberdade he built to get from South America to the Chesapeake with his family.


What he did NOT have with him was a chronometer., making him one of the last persons to navigate around the world without one, and an anachronism by 50 years or so.

From his book
The want of a chronometer for the voyage was all that now worried me. In our newfangled notions of navigation it is supposed that a mariner cannot find his way without one; and I had myself drifted into this way of thinking. My old chronometer, a good one, had been long in disuse. It would cost fifteen dollars to clean and rate it. Fifteen dollars! For sufficient reasons I left that timepiece at home, where the Dutchman left his anchor.

He instead used the fifteen dollars for a lantern and stove.

I’ve read reports of sailing ships not using chronometers into the early 1900’s as too expensive.

Observing the ocultations of the Galilean moons of Jupiter was another way to compute GMT.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Feb 1, 2019 - 01:56am PT
A 73 year old French guy just won the Golden Globe 50th anniversary solo around the World race without instruments.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/jan/29/golden-globe-race-jean-luc-van-den-heede-solo-yacht

Check that. He did it without MODERN instruments. Presumably he had a cro magnon sextant and such.
ionlyski

Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
Feb 1, 2019 - 06:00am PT
One artifact on Terror was a sextant. It was hard to tell whether it was made in Britain or Germany, but the word "Lorenzo" could almost be made out in tiny letters.

That is funny Anders. Noticed how you didn't respond to Lorenzo directly. What a good Norwegian you are. Great stuff you guys, Lorenzo, Reilly, Anders.

Sending this thread to my brother at NOAA, director for the Arctic Polar Seal Project (or some such moniker)

Arne
ionlyski

Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
Feb 1, 2019 - 06:33am PT
Also would you guys mind discussing the protruding mast possibilities some more? I want that to have merit and basis behind it. C'mon its one of the best parts of the Terror discovery, no? I forget now, didn't the hunter die shortly after his revelation?

Arne
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 1, 2019 - 08:54am PT
Trying not to lose my bearings. Not to be confused with Berings.

The search expeditions from 2009 - 18 had with them copies of the original plans for Erebus and Terror, as well as from their refit before they sailed in 1845. Those would show how high Terror's masts were then. Drifting ice would have quickly snapped them after the ship sank. There is debris scattered all about each ship.

It seems possible that oral tradition recorded that the ship came there and sank, but that a/the masts protruded for some time afterwards.

Captain Noon mentioned that it's not unusual to find drifting logs etc in the area, carried north by the big rivers such as the MacKenzie, then scattered. So that's another possibility.

Sammy Kogvik, an Inuit hunter and member of the Canadian Rangers, was the person who pointed them to searching in Terror Bay, well away from where they planned to search - IIRC in the vicinity of Erebus. Kogvik said he'd seen a mast protruding in that area seven years ago, and there was in any case substantial Inuit oral tradition that a ship sank there.

Looie Kamookak, also from Gjøa Havn, was the Inuit historian and collector of oral tradition who assisted greatly in the search, but who died in 2018:
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-louie-kamookak-58-teacher-and-inuit-historian-was-the-last-great/
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 1, 2019 - 09:07am PT
The only thing that makes sense to me about the mast story is that a driftwood log got upended somehow. Seems unlikely but plausible.

HMS Terror saw a lot of service in the War of 1812, aka The Reverse Brexit Warmup. She was one of the ships that bombarded Fort Mchenry which inspired Francis Scott Key to write the poem that eventually became known as "The Star-Spangled Banner".

Another interesting tidbit is that she and Erebus each carried only 12 days supply of coal!
Are you kidding me? For a trip that could last years?

What I don’t get is all the secrecy. It isn’t like a bunch of homeboys are gonna run up there to tag it. And even trying to steal mementos would be quite fraught. And somebody needs to remind the Ottawa bureaucrats about the right to navigate.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Feb 1, 2019 - 09:31am PT
I’m in the mast camp. The location of the mast was reported to the leaders of the Arctic Research Foundation by iniktituk Sammy Kogvik who says he and his uncle saw it sticking out of the ice six or eight years previous and he had taken a picture of him and it it but lost the camera. He hadn’t talked about it earlier because he wasn’t sure they would believe it, but spoke up when the expedition was about to give up for the year.

What makes it believable is that he took researchers to the site and they found the wreck at the location within 2 1/2 hours. That’s pretty hard to ignore.

Researchers had been looking in a different area in Cambridge bay, not even in Terror Bay.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/sammy-kogvik-hms-terror-franklin-1.3763653
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Feb 1, 2019 - 09:37am PT
And somebody needs to remind the Ottawa bureaucrats about the right to navigate.

I invite you to sail up to the beach at Mar A Lago.

Let us know how it turns out.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 1, 2019 - 09:38am PT
Hard to argue with the facts. Having hung with the Inuit I will always give them the benefit of the doubt, even if it makes no sense. They’re strong on the power of observation scale as well as the integrity scale.

Why would I want to run aground at Mar a Lago?
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Feb 1, 2019 - 09:41am PT
Just to test your right to navigate...
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 1, 2019 - 03:15pm PT
Arthur Conan Doyle: "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."

Hypothesis #1: A mast from Terror was still in place on the wreck, and protruding from the surface 30 m above, as recently as seven years ago.

For: Terror undoubtedly had masts. Someone thought he saw a mast protruding, seven years ago, and there is oral tradition of same.

Against: Its unclear if the masts were tall enough to ever reach the surface. They may have just broken the surface when Terror first sank, in ~1850. However, since then they would repeatedly have been pummelled by ice floes and waves. Erebus, in only about 10 m instead of 30 m of water, had her masts, superstructure and deck scoured by ice.

(Perhaps there's a photo of Terror's deck, showing damage caused when the masts were wrenched out?)

Hypothesis #2: A bit of wood from the wreck happened to come to the surface at the right time, and looked something like a mast.

For: We can't prove it didn't happen.

Against: Wood that has been waterlogged for 170 years doesn't float.

Hypothesis #3: A floating tree, perhaps with branches sticking out, came by and looked like a mast.

For: Lots of big trees float down the rivers, especially the MacKenzie, and drift toward King William Island. Terror Bay may even be a place where such collect, due to currents and winds.

Against: Repeatedly?

Otherwise, in Canadian law, the entire Arctic archipelago is our internal waters - the northwest passage is not an international strait, governed by international law, for the simple reason that it isn't passable by ordinary ships for eleven months of the year. It's land, not water. (Currently.) All vessels entering the passage are required to notify the Canadian coast guard, and have no right of free passage. Read up on the Manhattan's voyage, 50 years ago. Of course, submarines may well pass through Parry Channel, and the Canadian military undoubtedly has sensors to watch same. All quiet. The USA at least has agreed not to challenge the status quo. Presumably as long as Canada keeps things under control, that'll do.

Our former prime minister (Harper) thought that by finding Erebus and Terror, Canada would cement her claim to the Arctic archipelago. Not sure how that works. British ships, lost when much of the area was uncharted although subject to nominal British claims. Britain didn't (nominally) transfer the territory to Canada until 1880 CE, and didn't finally address Norway's claims to much of it (the Sverdrup Islands) until the 1930s. And in any case the Inuit were there first, although mostly south of Parry Channel and on the east coast of Ellesmere.
johntp

Trad climber
By decision or indecision we are where we are.
Feb 1, 2019 - 03:47pm PT
Looking for Shackleton's Endurance:

https://weddellseaexpedition.org/
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Feb 1, 2019 - 04:00pm PT
Not mentioned in your hypotheses was that Sammy Kogvik said it looked like a mast and that the boat was where Sammy said the mast was.

When looking for the most likely, how likely is it that a random log was sticking vertically out of the ice in precisely the location of the Terror? If such logs are a regular occurrence, what made Sammy pick this one?

It would seem that if such an unlikely event happened at all, it would as likely have happened almost anywhere else in the region, but it didn’t.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 1, 2019 - 07:38pm PT
It is rather puzzling. We may need to apply Occam's Razor.

"About six years ago [2016], Kogvik said, he and a hunting buddy were headed on snowmobiles to fish in a lake when they spotted a large piece of wood, which looked like a mast, sticking out of the sea ice covering Terror Bay."

He took photos, but lost the camera. The hunting buddy doesn't seem to be identified or quoted.

The 2016 photos and video - such as are on the internetz - show things protruding from the deck, but nothing so tall as a mast.

There's no doubt Kogvik observed something at the location. Once they look at where and how the masts are lying on the seabed, it may be possible to estimate how long they've been there. Beyond that, we may never know.
ionlyski

Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
Feb 2, 2019 - 08:29am PT
There's no doubt Kogvik observed something at the location. Once they look at where and how the masts are lying on the seabed, it may be possible to estimate how long they've been there. Beyond that, we may never know.

Do you think that those in charge of the exploration would benefit from a slight poke or nudge, to make sure they carefully record those precise observations, specifically with the question of reconstructing the history of the mast or masts? Or would they have that all under control?

Arne
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2019 - 10:42am PT
Well, for now, having done a preliminary survey, they're leaving Terror as she is. With limited resources, and her being at greater depth, Erebus is the priority. At least, that's what they said. They have done a preliminary survey, with underwater archaeologists, and hopefully that includes a thorough survey of the site prior to any work being done. Which in turn might be informative as to what happened.

Captain Noon mentioned that several wealthy USA high tech people were looking in the area before the Canadian government got seriously involved. Loitering with intent, in the legal term. Not clear why they didn't just tell them to buzz off, given that access to the area wouldn't be hard to manage, with seasonal and geographical constraints.

Noon also said that the British were only too happy to have Canada take over responsibility for the wrecks - apart from any human remains, or gold, that is. They have hundreds of naval wrecks to manage around the world, many of which are inaccessible.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 2, 2019 - 11:08am PT
All of this is very interesting but in view of the huge costs I see a very marginal cost/benefit ratio. I don’t see this turning into another Mary Rose nor do I see many answers coming concerning the bigger questions. I see the answers to those questions coming, unlikely as it may be, from onshore discoveries of the crews’ post-abandonment camps.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Feb 2, 2019 - 12:50pm PT
The hunting buddy doesn't seem to be identified or quoted.

Well, fellow was identified as “uncle James” I’m betting if you go to Gjoa Haven and shout for him, someone will tell you where he is. He wasnt working with the researchers. Maybe he’s media shy.
ionlyski

Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
Feb 2, 2019 - 02:29pm PT
Is there some type of definitive, must read, Franklin Expedition book out now, that also includes up to the time of discovery?

Arne
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Feb 2, 2019 - 03:17pm PT
“Ice Ghosts” by Paul Watson (2017) is about the most recent you’ll find.

Some about the expedition, some about Canadian motives in claiming the find( territorial, oil and gas ), some about Inuit historian Louie Kamookak’s (RIP) role in preserving oral Inuit traditions about the wrecks and the Franklin crew.

Good read. You may find parts of it not on topic for what you are looking for.

I think you can get it as an ebook.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2019 - 05:55pm PT
Captain Noon also spoke highly of Ice Ghosts, and showed a slide showing all the known relics of Erebus and Terror found so far. Dots on the map of King William Island. Lots of dots. And in a few other places to the south. The interesting thing being that few artefacts have been found in the area in which Erebus was found, which was well to the south of where they thought she would be. Suggesting perhaps that she was finally abandoned well before she sank?

When they found Erebus, they were "mowing the lawn" in the water to the west. Meaning running the side scan radar back and forth on parallel tracks, to see what was below. Before the wreck was found, they were looking around on the land - as they always do - and someone found a large metal hoop-like thing, which they were able to identify as having been from the Royal Navy due to it having an arrow. It was a gaff holder, IIRC, but Noon didn't say anything about how it could have gotten there from the wreck.

Michael Palin's new book Erebus is the story of that vessel, and so to a considerable extent that of Terror and in due course the Franklin expedition. Quite readable, but it may not add a lot to the story.

It'll be interesting to see what the archaeologists come up with. So to speak. And how they interpret it, in context of all the information.

I've met several Inuit and Greenlanders. They have a reputation for robust senses of humour. It seems possible that Sammy Kogvik, knowing that there was a strong oral tradition of masts/wood sticking out of the water at Terror Bay (in say the 1850s), got fed up with the idiot kabloonas who planned to search elsewhere, and so made up a story to get their attention. After all, there was wood sticking out of the water, just not quite so recently.

Yes, it's hard to work out a cost/benefit for this, although clearly there are other agendas besides archaeology and history. With global warming, Canada needs to increase its Arctic capabilities, and its one way to generate interest.

The one that's harder to figure out is the retrieval of Maud, and return of her to Norway, at ginormous cost. Lots of romance, but negligible addition to archaeology or history - there's little about her that wasn't already know. Also, her deck was at or just below the surface, so she was thoroughly pounded by ice, to the point of being not much more than a pile of planks.

And yes, there really was a photo of a sextant on Erebus.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Feb 2, 2019 - 07:41pm PT
Found in 1859 on Prince William Island.

And a chronometer.

They had 10 on each boat. This one was assigned to the Terror but was found on the wreck of the Erebus.


And there is video of the finding of the ship’s bell

https://canadianmysteries.ca/sites/franklin/archive/video/PCErebusBell_en.htm
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Feb 2, 2019 - 07:50pm PT
If you want to pour through a catalogue of Inuit testimony from 1852 to present, start here:


https://canadianmysteries.ca/sites/franklin/archive/archiveAudioInuitTestimonyIndex_en.htm
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 13, 2019 - 01:18pm PT
Speaking of instruments and measuring, I chatted with a friend today, who works in remote sensing. World level stuff, way above my pay grade. I asked why, given that Erebus and Terror contained large chunks of iron, the wrecks couldn't have been located with an airborne magnetometer, rather than sidescan sonar. The short answer is that the magnetometer is subject to an inverse cube relationship, in terms of distance from a target, whereas the sonar is only inverse cube. That, plus the logistics of operating the aircraft on a tight grid pattern - 100 m intervals or less - and keeping the aircraft up for long periods, make sonar the preferred method.

Edit: Erebus and Terror had steam engines, in fact converted railway engines. Weighing several tonnes each. Lots of iron to look for, although as point sources they couldn't be located from a distance with a magnetometer.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 13, 2019 - 01:27pm PT
Other than some small cannon, a stove, and presumably a forge that doesn’t sound like a lot.
Granted, it is more dense than what is normally found in nature but maybe not enough to
merit an extensive search? And a 100 m aerial search pattern? Really?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 14, 2019 - 01:08pm PT
In other news, SA Agulhas has been positioned at the location where Endurance sank for several days, and is searching for the wreck using an Underwater Autonomous Vehicle and side scan sonar.

Shackleton's skipper, Frank Worsely [Worsley?], was a very skilled navigator and used a sextant and chronometer to calculate the precise co-ordinates of the Endurance sinking - 68°39'30.0" South and 52°26'30.0" West.

The ship is almost certainly within a few nautical miles of this point - and there is every chance it is in reasonable condition.

In about 3,000 m.

Update: Agulhas has lost contact with the UAV, and the search has ended.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/14/search-for-shackletons-endurance-called-off-after-loss-of-submarine
BruceHildenbrand

Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
Feb 14, 2019 - 02:17pm PT
105 years later the Antarctic proves that it is still a difficult proposition! Here's my SWAG. The ROV got tangled up in the rigging of the ship and it caused widespread failure of it's systems:-)
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 14, 2019 - 05:11pm PT
Now that would be ironic.

Hurley's photo of Endurance just before she sank shows that all the masts had collapsed. The only thing standing was the funnel, about 4 m high.

And for anyone who might want to travel on sea ice in the central Arctic: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/hunters-radar-maps-ice-navigation-1.5018722?fbclid=IwAR1m8Qwxbd9F6d9-fOqKXJ7_7qDFu_0h-t_pODReoh9OpcvKgEt3vo_pQUA
guido

Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
Feb 14, 2019 - 05:59pm PT
For Toker Villain and all you nautical geeks, check out Randall Reeves and his: The Figure 8 Voyage – Around the Americas and Antarctica in one ...http://figure8voyage.com/a-committed-sailor/

Randall is on his 2nd attempt for this bold endeavor, bailed last year into Hobart from storm damage, sailed back to San Francisco and now well into his second attempt, 131 days and counting, and last I saw becalmed off the South island of NZ.

Excellent sailor, excellent boat for this and well worth following his progress......

i-b-goB

Social climber
Nutty
Feb 14, 2019 - 06:07pm PT
Holy Moli, guido!
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Feb 15, 2019 - 02:46am PT
Speaking of Endurance, today marks Ernest Henry Shackleton’s birthday (1874-1922)

Lift a glass of Guinness for the guy.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 7, 2019 - 10:48pm PT
Tonight's talk at the maritime museum was by Rob Rondeau, a marine archaeologist - although he's from Saskatchewan. Mostly about Roald Amundsen, but he was in Cambridge Bay when they were raising Maud, and involved in the first part of the search for Terror and Erebus. (Thought I'd reverse their usual order.) The usual interesting stuff.

He has also worked in Norway, including searching for wrecks of World War II and other planes off the coast, and looking for the remnants of the Latham 47 plane which Amundsen, Dietrichsen and others were in when it disappeared in 1928. They searched a substantial area near Bjørn Øya, where a number of anomalies have been detected, mainly by trawlers.
BruceHildenbrand

Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
Mar 8, 2019 - 12:10am PT
A cool fact about Amundsen is that he was the first person to reach both the south(by land) and the north(by air) poles.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 20, 2019 - 10:30am PT
Some cool photos found recently at the hut at Cape Evans. They were taken by Shackleton's Ross Sea party during 1914 - 17, with the negatives recently found and developed. Plus the NZAHT has lots of other neat stuff on its website.
https://www.nzaht.org/pages/ross-sea-party-photos
BruceHildenbrand

Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
Mar 20, 2019 - 12:22pm PT
Cool Anders! Good book about the Ross Sea party:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/558180.Shackleton_s_Forgotten_Men

but I am undoubtedly preaching to the choir!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 1, 2019 - 08:51pm PT
More about Erebus, and ongoing damage to her. She is in fairly shallow water, and so much of her superstructure and mastage was broken off by ice. At the same time, the ice protected her from waves and swells, for 10 - 11 months of the year. Not so much any more, with warming - Erebus is being damaged by storms, so they're planning to focus on her for now. Although why that took an access to information request to find out is beyond me.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/franklin-erebus-terror-parks-canada-arctic-dive-artifacts-ice-gjoa-haven-1.5072435?fbclid=IwAR2oDG8q9KqKWkelGXADOU_bhbmhA_45Y1XoE7WOG1GY2dYj5CszDOu6FqE
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 14, 2019 - 12:02pm PT
There is a new biographical movie about Roald Amundsen, titled "Amundsen". Apparently causing some controversy. Marlow? https://www.newsinenglish.no/2019/02/15/critics-rage-against-new-amundsen-film/
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