Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 216 of total 216 in this topic |
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 28, 2006 - 03:21am PT
|
I didn't know which thread to post these in, so I made a new thread...
A lot of talk about the bolting in the 70's, thought I'd share some stuff recovered in the wayback machine (actually this summer's episode of "This Old Route", hopefully to be completed in the spring).
Here are two bolts that we removed and replaced, beside two modern bolts:
The rusty bolts with Dolt hangers are 1/4" x 1" steel split-shaft. These were "state-of-the-art" in 1971 when they were put in. The placements were excellent, and the placer was Roger Breedlove.
The top shinny bolt is a 5-piece Powers plated steel 3/8" x 2.25" with a Petzl SS hanger (ASCA), and the bottom a Powers SS anchor, also 3/8" x 2.25" with a Metolius SS hanger (the type which replaced the old bolts).
A closeup of the hangers:
you can see the "Dolt" symbol stamped on the hanger in the top photo if you look carefully.
From the back:
These old bolts were in great condition and probably would be near full strength for the bolt type. Of course, you never know...
I'm sending these back to the owner... but I might use a couple to pull test just to see how good they still are.
These old bolts would have been considered excellent protection in the '70s, especially when placed so well.
|
|
jack herer
climber
veneta, or
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 03:40am PT
|
This old bolt was placed sometime in the 60's I think, one hit with the tuning fork under brought it up... but this is in smith rock tuff.
|
|
Hangerlessbolt
Trad climber
Portland, OR
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 04:09am PT
|
The bottom bolt looks like one my buddy Chris peeled off onto on With Malice and Forethought.
I remember he looked at it and said, "There's no way this will hold, but it might slow me down if I come off."
I didn't think he'd peel...and neither did he, but sure as sh#t..."POP"...and it held!
He quickly gained his composure and started back up the route.
I suggested, "It's a good thing it wasn't me hanging off that thing."
He agreed
Would have been better off with a paperclip and a thumbtac
|
|
ec
climber
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 06:33am PT
|
Ed, you must have been 'inspired' by the cave bolts in the reverse climbing thread. When I get home I'll have to drag out some nasty ones if I can locate them...
|
|
Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 08:25am PT
|
Nice ruler, Ed.
By the way, how long does it take to drill a 3/8 X 2 1/4 inch hole? It is about 5 times as much material.
Roger
|
|
Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 09:12am PT
|
We think this was placed by Lynn Robison and Joe Hancock in the early '80s. It came off of a runout 5.9 slab climb called Prime Interest at Christmas Tree Pass.
|
|
Jello
Social climber
No Ut
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 10:00am PT
|
Those old bolts were certainly "sportier" than the modern sport bolts. Like Hangerless said, you'd be "...better off with a thumbtack and paperclip." Replace all those old numbers, quick!
|
|
Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 10:05am PT
|
I like it these days when climbers get on one of the sportier routes that have updated bolts and wimpper about the run outs. I just look at them and go you should have done it when it was protected with 1/4 bolts with spinner hangers.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2006 - 10:07am PT
|
ec - yes, but the bolts we pulled were way better placed than that mank in the cave... I've been meaning to post the bolt pictures earlier, but something inspired me between the cave thread, the "balls to use nuts" thread and the "welcome KW" history fest.
I was actually pleased at how good those 1/4" bolts were.
Roger - glad you like the ruler! I have collected a lot of odd memorabilia over the years. I'm sending the sling that was attached to those bolts (belay bolts atop pitch 3) so you can get an idea of when someone last bailed from the route.
AND TO ALL THE REST OF YOU OUT THERE!
Support your favorite rebolting project... I support ASCA, I know there are others out there who do it as a service to the community. On this particular route I was pleased to be thanked by a couple of climbers passing by the base of the climb.
Those 1/4" bolts have served their time... it would be wonderful if we could replace them with better hardware. There are people in this world who feel so strongly about this that they spend large amounts of their time rebolting these fine old routes.
THANK YOU!!
I know we all want to get this right, so if you have a criticism about the rebolting, TRY TO VOICE IT IN A CONSTRUCTIVE MANNER. The main point is that the FA did not intend any later climbers to climb their routes on dangerously compromised hardware. The hardware they put in at the time was sound (for the most part). Age, weathering, environmental factors all contribute to the creation of mank.
If we want these routes to be available for future climbers, then we all have to figure out how to maintain the routes. It is a community effort.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2006 - 10:13am PT
|
Per Greg Barnes' recommendation
we tap the old bolt out enough to get a pry bar underneath. There are many people who machine the "tuning fork" Lost Arrow piton for free (thank you, especially Paul!) so this can be done carefully.
That takes 5-10 minutes.
The old 1/4" x 1" bolt hole is redrilled using a 3/8" bit, taking 15 to 20 minutes, depending on the rock (the number above is Fairview Dome granite). You have to be patient redrilling as to not bind the bit up.
Actually another factor in drilling ground up on lead on a "flint hard" granite route these days is that it takes a lot longer to drill 3/8" x 2.25" then those old holes... at least when you do it by hand.
|
|
Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 10:38am PT
|
We use an auto mechanics pickle fork. Some of the old 1/4"ers at the pass come out grudgingly, some you just tap lightly. We then redrill to 3/8". They've been doing a couple of routes per year out there. The Southern California Mountaineers Association, the organization everyone loves to hate, has been providing a lot of the hardware.
|
|
Cuckawalla
Trad climber
Grand Junction, CO
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 10:46am PT
|
On soft rock, ie:) Navajo sandstone/ wingate, does the tuning fork leave bad scars after use? Also, can the tuning fork be used to remove Baby Angles?
Thanks,
Jesse
|
|
Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 10:46am PT
|
Here is an unused Salathe bolt and hanger circa 1940's. They used to be considered good enough.
Ken
|
|
goatboy smellz
climber
boulder county
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 11:37am PT
|
For a bunch of trad climbers you folks sure know alot about bolts. ()'-'()
|
|
Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 11:45am PT
|
Hey, bolts were trad first! Salathe, Robbins, Harding all before 1960 in Yosemite Valley.
|
|
Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 11:56am PT
|
Hey Roger,
Don't forget about George Anderson. This one is from 1877.
Ken
|
|
Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 12:01pm PT
|
Hey Ken, wasn't George a sport climber?
|
|
Greg Barnes
climber
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 12:04pm PT
|
Cool Ken, David Brower bolts from the '30s are modern compared to that, and Harding bolts almost new!
Hey Ed - you can get a little more aggro on the thin pin/tuning fork combo, I get nearly all 1/4" out in 30 seconds-2 min, and Tuolumne bolts are almost always at the low end of that scale (freeze-thaw cycles).
Don't bother testing those Dolt hangers, give them all to Roger or save them!
|
|
goatboy smellz
climber
boulder county
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 12:05pm PT
|
Right 'O Roger, notice the wink and smile.
|
|
Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 12:05pm PT
|
Roger,
Not on Mt. Starr King. He placed one bolt and had probably the first sticky free climbing shoes. He placed pine pitch on a pair of moccasins for that ascent. When he got to the summit he was disappointed to find a rock cairn that was built by Schuster and Bailey the year before in 1876.
Ken
|
|
Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 12:15pm PT
|
Pine tar? And we all think 'long ago' was so pure!
I can see it now, the "Great Roof' pitch reduced to 5.7 PT with gobs of synthetic pine tar. One poor soul was rescued when she couldn't extract her fingers from the crack. She wasn't hurt: her feet were stuck too.
A lively debate ensued regarding the relative strength of the pine tar versus the climber's weight, resulting in PT.1, PT.2, PT.3 etc, all the way up to Largo's fighting weight, at PT.7.
Buzz
PS: I am just supersensitive Goatboy, since I was an old school bolter but could never get into lycra.
|
|
Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 12:21pm PT
|
Roger,
I am sure it was a little dicey whenever he stepped on anything but clean rock. Sport climbing to me means the era of rap bolting. Lead bolting is traditional in a sense.
Ken
|
|
goatboy smellz
climber
boulder county
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 12:23pm PT
|
Golly,
Glad you boys had the nuts to figured it out.
|
|
Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 12:34pm PT
|
Here's a 1/4" Star Dryvin with SMC hanger, dating from the first ascent of Triassic Sands in 1972 (pitch 4). Looks a little rusty. Replaced by Greg Barnes in 2006.
|
|
Greg Barnes
climber
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 12:47pm PT
|
The rock in that spot (clean cut tan rock in Red Rocks) was pretty darn soft - I hand-drilled a 1/2" x 3" bolt (through the remaining lead sleeve fragments) in only 8-10 minutes! The lead sleeve fragments come out as little rounded chunks. Con from YMS lead for that replacement.
Don't try it with 3/8" Star-Dryvin and a 3/8" hand drill though - drill bit gets stuck in the lead. If you deal with those, Bruce Hildenbrand uses a great trick of a lag screw to pull the sleeve (Pinnacles has a lot of those and so Bruce is the expert!)
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 01:11pm PT
|
Here's a sampling of the progression of rap/belay anchors that were replaced during our anchor replacement project. These don't include some fairly amazing and bad homemade jobs that, along with examples of all of these, were left in place for history's sake. All these anchors were replaced with heavy Metolius Rap hangers.
And a note on old 1/4" bolts: all of the '80-'90s era 1/2" bolt were in the worst shape of all the ones replaced and you could cut dozens of them in minutes with one saw blade when they spun and wouldn't pull. By contrast, a couple of 1/4" bolts destroyed two blades that didn't even nick them in the process. Have no idea what they were made of, but despite appearances they are still there and way better than much of the stuff put in decades later.
|
|
Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 01:23pm PT
|
Those old style--a relative phrase for sure--hangers at the top of your picture reminded me that there was a period when the newer stlye carabiner gates, with their beefed up keepers, would not go through the small holes on the older hangers. Everyone kept a few of the old 'oval' biners around for carabiner rappel brakes and they would fit into those old hangers.
|
|
bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 01:26pm PT
|
Somebody asked about the speeds of drilling.......
In the 70's we used steel Rawl drill bits that seemed to drill well for about 3 holes before needing resharpening. Nowadays, the carbide-tipped drill bits drill way better, way faster and stay sharp for a long, long time.
I find that I can hand drill a 3/8 x 2.25" hole in Tuolumne Meadows granite in about 10 minutes with a carbide-tipped bit. Back in the 70's a 1/4" x 1.25" hole with a fresh Rawl bit took me about 10-15 minutes.
Bruce
|
|
Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 01:36pm PT
|
That's pretty impressive, Bruce. Five times the rock moved at the same or faster times. I think it took me about 10-15 minutes to drill a 1/4 inch hole with my double fluted bits.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2006 - 01:46pm PT
|
I'm slow, but the carbide tip bits are really great. Eric dresses the tips and seems to get a better chisel effect.
I've also noticed that when I'm sketched out I drill a lot better... until I go to the other limit when I'm resetting feet all the time... then it takes a long time, tap-tap-tap-shuffle-shuffle-shuffle-tap-tap-tap etc...
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 01:52pm PT
|
These have been posted before, but this seems like a good place to revisit them. From North Quarter Dome, June/06. The first one had the initials YC stamped on the homemade aluminum hanger. Replacement bolts courtesy of ASCA.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 02:08pm PT
|
We had some of those square aluminum homemade jobs as well that somehow didn't make it into the photo. Some of the anchors left were put in by Caldwell and Schmitz. Dean still remembered which ones he drilled and which were Kim's on looking at photos of the various anchors, several of which had at least one of those square aluminum jobs.
Note: I'd be remiss if I failed to thank Theron Moses for making the tuning forks used on the project.
|
|
slobmonster
Trad climber
berkeley, ca
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 02:13pm PT
|
Anyone out there have a source for the "tuning fork" so lovingly described above?
|
|
Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 02:19pm PT
|
Here's a new, thick bolt (courtesy of Lord Slime) that snapped off easily on a limestone seacliff at Cayman Brac. Only titanium glue-ins seem to be safe there; stainless and other steel bolts often break under body weight or less, resulting in a few near disasters. See http://www.safeclimbing.org/education/deepbluesea.htm
|
|
bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 02:21pm PT
|
Roger,
it ain't me, it's the bits. Those carbide tipped bits drill so much faster than the old steel ones it's amazing. Takes me about 10 minutes to drill a 3/8" x 2.25" hole in Boulder Canyon, CO granite as well.
People think that hand-drilling is old school but, when you factor in the weight of the Bosch (where you can legally use it) and how quickly you can hand drill with carbide-tipped bits sometimes it makes way more sense to hand drill.
Bruce
|
|
crunch
Social climber
CO
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 03:58pm PT
|
Some old bolts pulled from the Titan four years ago.
Chris McNamara, John Burns and Mike umm, I forget now... At the base. One bolt at least (the one with 3 holes, nestled between the giant modern ones) is an original handmade Layton Kor hanger.
EDIT: That should be Chris McNamara, Mike White and John Evans. Thanks Brian.
|
|
Greg Barnes
climber
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 04:06pm PT
|
slobmonster, we sell tuning forks milled from #3 LAs for $10 including shipping, just send a check to:
ASCA
PO Box 1814
Bishop, CA 93515
The ones we have are only for 1/4" bolts, if you try to use them on 5/16" buttonheads they bend & break right away.
|
|
Greg Barnes
climber
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 04:11pm PT
|
crunch, that's Mike White from Salt Lake, he's done lots of Utah rebolting (also lots in Red Rocks).
|
|
Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 04:12pm PT
|
Mike White (right of Chris) and isn't that John Evans? Dunno.
Mike for sure, though.
Kor hangers, pretty cool. Shot of him in Beyond the Vertical with a hacksaw blade and that strap of bent angle iron.
-Brian in SLC
|
|
ec
climber
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 07:51pm PT
|
Man, those old bolts are amazing!!
Here's a few choice anchors of old I dug up:
3/8" X 2" StarDryvin w/Leeper Hanger from Pinnacles NM, CA:
3/8" X 2.25" Wedge-type bolt (from hardware store) w/HME Hanger from Sequoia National Park. The scary thing about this type of bolt I found on this route was that they were all loose and this one was literally HAND PLUCKED from its placement! This is the current design of the Fixe Studs. 'Makes me wonder...
3/8" X ??" Carriage Bolt (from hardware store) w/ Homemade Aluminum Hanger from Pinnacles NM:
.25" X 1" RAWL Stud w/(I believe a) LongWare Hanger from the Sierra. Notice that the bolt is not hardly compressed and the split is very visible. This indicates that an oversized drill was most likely used. This hanger has one of the best workmanship of any of the old 'homemade' hangers that I've ever seen:
.25" X 1.25" (??) StarDryvin w/a Layton Kor Hanger from the Kingfisher Tower, Fisher Towers, UT:
Bring Your Own Bolt (BYOB). This was made by David Hickey for the more sensitive areas to bolting and for the backcountry climber. It works off of the same design as a bicycle headset. The parts are a Metolius Stainless Hanger welded to 3/8" diameter X 2 or 3" long stainless tubing that has a downward flare to the central hole through the tube. A stainless bolt runs through the center and on the end is a off-set nut/wedge. Several were made and used on a few routes and top-rope areas. The problem with using them is subsequent parties had a difficult time finding the f##cking holes! Besides having to drill the hole, these were extremely fast to use and remove. If you could find the holes, it was like having a new bolt evry time. Climbing Mag tested this one, that's why it is totally tweaked. Shear and pull-out strength was indicated to be in excess of 7800lbs!
|
|
Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 08:11pm PT
|
Well, this isn't a bolt, but it was fixed protection. A piton, fixed in a route called Banana Peel, on the Apron at Squamish. A pleasant varied moderate route. The pin was there, at what is perhaps the crux move (5.8) in 1973 when I first did the route. I removed it in 2000, when working on a nearby variation. Uncovering a good nut placement, though there was one nearby that most used for backup anyway.
Squamish is undoubtedly a rainy place, and near the ocean. I estimate that about 40% of the area of the piton, and perhaps 30% of its mass, had eroded. It didn't take much effort to remove, but I was probably the first person in many years to be in the area with a hammer.
Note perforations!
It was a 5/8" Chouinard angle, what used to be called a stubby. The SMC version was plated, and so more resistant.
(Sorry, the photos are a bit fuzzy - still getting used to a new camera.)
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 08:20pm PT
|
The second row of hangers in Healyje's photo are the old Gerry hangers.
We called 'em "flip tops".
I always wondered what they were thinking when they made hangers into little "pry bars".
|
|
Scoopy
Big Wall climber
Both feet on the ground
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 01:35am PT
|
I know it's all for the better, but I must admit, I'm do miss seeing those spinners. It only adds to the excitement.
|
|
Strider
Trad climber
one of god's mountain temples....
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 03:43am PT
|
Sometimes carbide can be too hard, eh?
The carbide tip in this drill shattered and the drill bit was rendered usless. Or maybe not. The funny thing is, there were 2 or 3 bolts drilled before either me or my partner can remember looking at the bit. Who knows when it broke.
Th downside on this one was that I noticed the bit minutes before my partner called for the bolt kit on lead. He ended up changing the bit on lead because I was too slow to think to make him wait for the bolt kit while I changed the bit, I just sent the damn thing up. Funny thing was, he changed that drill bit in almost 15 seconds flat while on lead! It was like watching a marine put his rifle back together blindfolded.
-n
|
|
jack herer
climber
veneta, or
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 03:49am PT
|
i think the chisel tip bits drill faster than the pointed carbid bits. but i could be stoned.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2006 - 10:51am PT
|
carbide is brittle, Eric introduced me to the bits with the caution to "tap not wack"...
I did the same thing putting a new bolt in for the Chockstone Chimney rappel anchor, lost the tip without knowing about it... it was way dark by the time I had that hole drilled deep enough for the bolt. I put the kit away and it was only later the next day when I was cleaning stuff up at home that I realized that the tip had departed the bit.
|
|
crunch
Social climber
CO
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 11:32am PT
|
I'm an idiot. Brian, thanks for the corrections on the names for the Titan rebolting picture; the picture at the base of the Titan should say Chris McNamara, Mike White and John Evans. I wrote the names on the edge of the slide but the ink smudged.
Duane Raleigh helped too, the day before, but did not get into the picture. I did little but come along for the ride.
Ben Bransby and Pete Robins freed the Finger of Fate a year or so later. I know they much appreciated the rebolting.
Thanks guys!
|
|
Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 02:53pm PT
|
Here's a setup ready to go for you born again tradsters who want to get full value out of your first ascents. Needless to say, rubber grips and the like take some of the adventure out of the route. These are left over from a route in Darrington years ago, with BVB in the lead drilling with that holder and a 12oz ball peen hammer with some cord wrapped around the handle. It sounded like, "tap, tap, tap, tap, F*#K" as he'd miss the holder and hit his hand.
Having seen the error of my ways, and developed my sense of mortality to a greater degree, I've been perhaps overcompensating a bit by placing these babies. In sandstone mind you, so it's not that overkill, but the bolts are roughly the size of the old drill holder.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
The old, squared off aluminum angle hangers like the "one stamped Y C " described above always struck me as dangerous and poorly designed. The sharp corner always seemed like an invitation to a puncture wound that could easily have been eased or otherwise filed off. "Just lazy," I thought when I ran into them and shook my head.
High on the West Face of Sentinel I traversed out a ledge and encountered one of these aluminum sharpies. I clipped into it and began to survey the moves nearby. A corner system died out not far above and the area was water polished, smooth and far from easy.
After working out the moves at 5.10a or so, I was left wondering how the pioneers had managed it. The next time that Sentinel The West Face was shown over at the Lodge, I got my answer. Over to the very same bolt climbed a young and dapper Yvon Chouinard. After he carefully considered the moves, Y C reached high and clipped in with one carabiner. After pulling the slack out of the system, he then grasped both strands of the rope just below the biner and gracefully hoisted himself up until a high kick landed his klettershoe firmly onto the point of contention.
I almost laughed out loud at the craftiness of it all and how perceptions change. Designing a bolt hanger to be stood on just never occured to me.
I witnessed another novel use of bolts themselves on the NW Face of Half Dome. A party of Euros were facing the crux aid pitch just above Thankgod Ledge. After a short inspection of the seam at hand, the leader glanced upwards at the short ladder of ratty original Star Drive nail bolts. In a move that would make a rancher proud, he then gathered up a long loop of the thin trail rope and cowboyed it upwards until it snagged on one of the projecting nails. After a test pull, he gingerly Batmaned on up right past the aid crux until he could clip the lowest bolt and proceed. The tactic would never have occurred to me. Craftiness won the day again!
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
Anders, you seaside folks at Squamish must have many rusty anchor stories. While climbing the Grand Wall, I always look out to the right at the old aid lines knowing that all the bolts are probably no good anymore.
From L to R starting at the top: a) 3/8" strap hanger from Leaning Tower, b) Longware hanger (made briefly by Dick Long) probably installed by Royal on the second ascent solo when he replaced many of the original 3/16" bolts, c) original Nose two-hole hanger designed by Bill "Dolt" Feurer. I am currently trying to produce a stainless steel replica of this futuristic design for potential fixed anchor work on the Nose, d) Rawl drilled holder in its natural state, jammed and mushroomed e) REI Gerry aluminum poptop hanger, f) a highly prized Dolt keyhole hanger, g) original SMC chromoly hanger, h) Leeper chromoly hanger.
All of the chromoly hangers suffered from stress fracturing problems until replaced by stainless steel. The pressure applied while driving and setting the bolts greatly weakened the hangers and made them more susceptible to cracking. I once took a 50' fall onto a bolt (that I almost didn't place) when a relatively new Leeper hanger at the belay failed under body weight. I always pay attention before sitting back on belay stations after that little brush with death.
|
|
noshoesnoshirt
climber
hither and yon
|
|
Old new bolt. 3/8" Rawl 5 piece mild carbon recovered after ~10 years in southern sandstone.
|
|
jack herer
climber
veneta, or
|
|
more old school funk
|
|
Jim Leininger
Trad climber
tucson, az
|
|
There are a lot of those old hand-made hangers at the Pinnacles NM. On the west side there is a 5.6 called Twinkle Toes Traverse that has a garage door opener handle bolted to the rock as pro, always gets quite a look from climbers new to the route....
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
One minor point - the aluminum "pop top" hanger in Steve's collection
is definitely not made by REI or "Jerry" (probably he meant "Gerry"). I believe it was made by CMI. But my recollection could be wrong. These were in common use in the 60s.
|
|
bwancy1
Trad climber
|
|
There are a lot of those old hand-made hangers at the Pinnacles NM. On the west side there is a 5.6 called Twinkle Toes Traverse that has a garage door opener handle bolted to the rock as pro, always gets quite a look from climbers new to the route....
The garage door handle has been "retrobolted" by adding a new bolt and hanger to the door handle. New bolts affixing the handle were called for, but the addition of the hanger sortof takes the historical novelty away. Its about 5.2 right there.
|
|
Hangerlessbolt
Trad climber
Portland, OR
|
|
Seeing what we refer to as "relics" today makes me wonder how the equipment that we use currently is going to be viewed in the next 30 years.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
Clint, I never have seen a stamp on the poptops or ever bought them back in the day. I only recall that REI and Gerry supposedly sold the things and that they were suspect.
That garage door handle anchor is classic! Anybody have any pictures of the hardware store two hole hooks that used to be in place at Suicide Rock stations? They were set up so that you could do a full ropelength rappel and then skillfully flip the top end loop off of the hooks to send it to the ground. Superfly!!!
|
|
Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
|
|
I think those aluminum "pop top" hangers werer French. Maybe caving hangers. From the 60's?
I have a bunch from an old bolt kit. Seen them around a bit, usually on routes established in the late 60's.
Wasn't there a picture of them in one of Ghastly Rubberfats "On Snow and Rock" or "On Ice and Snow and Rock" books?
Ones I've seen pulled looked kinda ok, but one had the back end (underneath side) corroded out pretty severely. Button head rawl 1/4" bolt looked in much better shape.
-Brian in SLC
|
|
Alan Doak
climber
boulder, co
|
|
Here's one of my favorites from Pale Fire on Moses in Canyonlands, Utah.
|
|
crunch
Social climber
CO
|
|
This is from Dolomite Tower. Classic!
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
Crunch,
I think that fine piece of tat might just win the Jingus Award on this tread. I hope it was placed in perpetual shadow at least! Nice piton hanger too. I bet The Inverted Staircase on Fairview still sports these soft iron gems to protect 5.10 climbing!
Brian, I bet you are right about source of the poptops being overseas. A lot of imported gear got finish stamped by the distributer once it arrived and shipping out unmarked hardware may explain the mystery. Everybody involved might have been reluctant to hitch their wagon to an experimental piece of gear with obvious failure potential and consequences. Just a thought. They do wink at you as Gaston runs it out.
|
|
Greg Barnes
climber
|
|
Hey Clint, at least some of those aluminum pop-top hangers (or near-identical ones) say "W. Germany" on the underside of the clip-in point.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
Probably Salewa then? You would almost have to find an old 60's catalog to nail it down or some old 60's brains.
|
|
Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
|
|
|
Dec 10, 2006 - 01:41pm PT
|
SMC hanger on a rusty old wood screw. Prolly not safe.
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
|
Dec 10, 2006 - 03:01pm PT
|
Steve speculated:
> I bet The Inverted Staircase on Fairview still sports these soft iron gems to protect 5.10 climbing!
You would have been right until 1998. Then in 1998 and 2002 most of the old bolts on Inverted Staircase were replaced by ASCA folks. I remember running into Lawrence Garcia on top of Fairveiw in 2002 - he had just hiked up the backside to replace the top 2 bolts.
Edit: I did it in 2004, and there was only one old bolt left - in the middle of p6, after the actual inverted staircase. That bolt is not really needed, given modern gear, so it doesn't really need to be replaced. It might not even be original - it didn't look like it was from 1962.
http://www.safeclimbing.org/areas/california/tuolumne.htm
I look forward to your ideas on improving bolt-pulling technology. The tuning fork usually works great on the commonly found old 1/4" x 1" splitshaft rawls, pulling them quickly and with very little scratching on the rock surface. I have had more trouble and cratering (excessive chipping of rock around the hole) a few times when pulling longer 1/4" bolts from harder granite with more quartz.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Dec 10, 2006 - 03:07pm PT
|
Clint, I'm glad those old bolts disappeared from the Inverted Staircase. I don't think the hangers would've failed, but the bolts themselves were pure shizzle.
Fork pullers work great as long as you're thinking about minimizing damage. As I mentioned on another thread, I'm in the process of fabricating some block pullers for 1/4" and 3/8" bolts. As soon as I have some in hand, I will post images and send a few out to people like you and Greg who actively do anchor work. The design I'm trying to modify and improve is an old one in concept. I appreciate your interest and support for the best restoration solutions. Unfortunately, I have more ideas at the moment than time....
|
|
Greg Barnes
climber
|
|
|
Dec 10, 2006 - 03:27pm PT
|
Steve, I'd be psyched to try it. Tuning forks work great for most rock and most bolts, but cratering is a real problem for some types of rock, and even light scratching looks very bad on certain rock types (especially the dark patina at Red Rocks when the underlying rock is white/tan).
Would the 3/8" design work for 5/16" buttonheads? Getting those out in not-great-quality granite is where I've had the most trouble with cratering (note: 5/16" buttonheads are usually bomber, the ones I'm talking about had Leeper or other bad hangers).
|
|
crunch
Social climber
CO
|
|
|
Dec 11, 2006 - 03:27pm PT
|
In Eldorado Canyon a couple years ago, I tried using a jack from my truck to pull out some old rusty 1/4 inch buttonheads. The top of the jack has a shallow groove and a loop of webbing sits in this groove and is attached to a carabiner clipped into the hanger. Place the jack on the rock right next to the old bolt, and carefully crank it snug. Keep cranking.
This worked, and bolts were pulled out about 1/4 inch or so very easily.
Problems:
1. The jack is heavy, and great care needs to be taken not to drop it or the bar used for tightening.
2 The jack sits next to the bolt, so creating a pull that is not quite straight out, but at a slight angle, so requiring a hand free to stop the jack flopping over.
3. The major problem was the stretch in the webbing, and especially the knot tied in the webbing. Even with the play available with a 4x4 truck jack, I was only able to pull the bolts out a 1/4 inch at a time before I'd run out of adjustment in the jack.
So a car jack works, but a non-stretch AND adjustable AND strong connection to the bolt hanger would hugely improve useability. Some way of centering the jack over the bolt would be real nice too.
|
|
Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
|
|
|
Dec 11, 2006 - 08:25pm PT
|
Didn't there used to be one of those drilled-lost-arrows-as-bolt-hanger deals on N Face of Fairview? I seem to recall one that may have even had some weird spring retainer on it too.
In terms of bolt pulling contraptions, I have a slide hammer originally used for pulling bearings with a custom attachment on the end. I don't think I've used it on any old Rawl split shanks or anything you have to clip to hanger to pull out, but it's been dandy on pulling the cones out of 5 piece bolts and thunderstud type bolts (you know, with the little collar at the bottom).
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Dec 11, 2006 - 11:35pm PT
|
Greg and Clint, the bolt puller design in the works comes in two sizes; a 3/8" thick ss block with 1/2" low pitch threads as the extraction mechanism and a 3/4" block thick ss block with 3/4" low pitch threads.
Located in the center of the rectangular block of each is a tap hole and a welded ss nut. The block can be directly screwed onto a threaded stud before extraction. The small puller is tapped for a 1/4" coarse thread hole. The large block is tapped for a 3/8" coarse thread hole. The design breakthrough on this puller is a 3/8" or 1/2" U-bolt which can be fed through a bolt hanger and tightened down before engaging the drive (extraction) bolts.
I'm waiting on the 3/8" U-bolts for six light duty pullers and have two heavy duties in the works. The other innovation that should keep rock damage to a minimum is a pair of cabled machine nuts to use as adjustable feet at the point of contact with the radiused drivebolts. Field testing alone will determine whether the smaller version be able to extract 5/16' splitshafts without buckling or deforming the block or the drivebolts.
I'd be happy to send you guys a light set to check it out. I can probably spare one of the heavy sets also. This initial run is determined by available scrap size more than anything. I'll post a pic as soon as they're ready. The heavy puller will be ready first. The megablock should be able extract just about anything, including an enormous cone of rock. So we'll have to be really careful about which bolts to pull and which ones to cut and push in.
I am totally stoked about the potential for clean extraction, especially if the block can be threaded directly onto the bolt stud.
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
|
Dec 12, 2006 - 01:15am PT
|
That sounds nice, Steve. I agree, a way to pull the 5/16" split shaft Rawls would be great. I can think of a few ugly ones on Perfect Vision that would be nice to fix! I pulled a 5/16" from the belay partway up Ankles Away (at Needles), and it pretty much did in my old tuning fork (which was too narrow for it).
In Pinnacles rock (relatively soft volcanic breccia), sometimes people have placed 3/8" splitshaft bolts. We can usually pull them easily by removing the hex nut, putting on a stack of washers, and then tightening the hex nut. In granite this trick will not work so easily, so the gear puller type block could be very nice.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Dec 12, 2006 - 11:23am PT
|
In my experience fork pullers can be used with minimal rock scarring as long as you have a selection of forked pitons to work with. A forked standard Knifeblade should be the first one driven in place to minimize compression scarring. Next flip the hanger around and drive the thicker fork puller in the opposite direction so as to counter wedge the KB. The bottom KB acts as a wear shield and shim to keep the more agressive fork from contacting and scraping the rock itself while wedging the bolt out. Some small scraps of sheet steel are also useful to prevent sliding contact. My concern with generalized fork puller use is that everybody will go through the same learning process that I did and that the rock will suffer for it.
|
|
sling512
Trad climber
Chicago
|
|
|
Dec 19, 2006 - 10:22pm PT
|
Hey guys - I pulled these off of the north face lower slab area on Middle in 2000. I was starting up what I thought was an original line only to find these beauts waiting to be clipped. Both came out in my hand, no questions asked. Thoughts on age??
-sling the boy wonder
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Dec 19, 2006 - 10:33pm PT
|
Homemade strap hangers were common in the late 50s to mid-60s. The ring angle, and a nicely bent one at that, is probably from the same era since there would've been no point in carrying them once chromoly angles became available.
Is there a star on the head of the bolt? Any possibility you were on The Flakes, 5.8 (1964)?
|
|
sling512
Trad climber
Chicago
|
|
|
Dec 20, 2006 - 09:17am PT
|
Hi Steve! No star on the 'bolt'. It looks like a plain ol' nail to me. The end is tapered just like a nail. No markings on the ring angle either.
I can't be sure what route I was on. My book didn't show anything there, but that part of Middle doesn't have much of a showing in the guide. I was left of center, well right of DNB.
Anyone have a good topo of that wall?
-sling the boy wonder
|
|
Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
|
|
|
Dec 20, 2006 - 11:13am PT
|
There are no topos for the routes between the DNB and the North Buttress in Meyers early guide. There are two old routes between the DNB and The North Buttressthere however: 'The Turret,' which is near the top of Middle, and 'Thirsty Spire,' which you get to from the big ledge on the 'North Buttress.' You should be able to tell about where you were by consulting the Meyers guide and a good picture of Middle. How high up were you?
There is also the 'North Face' farther west of the 'North Buttress.'
|
|
sling512
Trad climber
Chicago
|
|
|
Dec 20, 2006 - 02:58pm PT
|
Roger, both of these were found on the first two pitches. I bailed after 4 pitches or so, before I got to any other route I could identify in my book. I'll look at my pictures tonight to see about where I was.
-sling the boy wonder
-edit-
Found this image online and boxed about where I was:
|
|
Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
|
|
|
Dec 20, 2006 - 03:36pm PT
|
Hi slings, Have you climbed the 'North Buttress' or any of the slab routes on the north face apron? If so do you know where you were relative to those starts?
The boxed area seems to be mostly the left hand side of the north face apron--the area that contains 'Jigsaw' and 'Black Primo' The left edge also includes the start of the 'North Face.' According to Roper's guide the 'North Face' route starts '...near the left-hand margin of the face at the point where the flat north face changes direction slightly to form the north buttress.' Steve's description of the 'flat north face' is what we call the north face apron. This route was first climbed in 1959 by Bob Kamps, Chuck Pratt, and Steve Roper.
Maybe you bagged a pin and bolt from that ascent.
Is Ken around? What do you think?
Roger
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
The issue of removing Taperbolts came up concerning Pieces Of Eight on Middle so I thought I would post some specific considerations on bolt removal. Scott and others placed a lot of these back in the day and you have to recognize the design from the marks on the bolt face.
For future reference, 5/16" Taperbolts should be easy to get out since they are essentially a machine bolt with a threaded cone-shaped end and two threaded soft metal half ends. Two turns open, tap in, and the whole show should come out with a little outward pressure and wiggling. Some hooked awls and other tools are crucial to remove the soft metal ends if they become disengaged.
It is crucial to recognize the type and design of the bolts that you are removing before applying outward force of any considerable magnitude! Direct outward pull alone is appropriate to remove contraction bolts that rely on compression to provide all holding power in the direction of removal. Mechanical tightening designs are more complex to remove because the component parts need to be continually loosened and manipulated during extraction to allow the hole to be emptied completely. If you attempt to pull a fully tightened mechanical bolt, you can expect a lot of damage to the hole, your puller and possibly a nasty looking cone blowout!
Unfortunately, I don't have any Taperbolts to show here. I never liked them enough to use them. Any volunteers from the studio audience?
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
To remove the lead sleeves from taperbolts (and more commonly, from Star Dryvins), we have found that using a lag screw (of the right diameter) is very helpful.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
Lots of specialized tools definitely helps to get the pieces out. I put up some sport routes ground up in the Red River Gorge in Kentucky and learned the hard way about how much fun bolt removal can be. I was placing big 1/2" X 6 3/4" rawl 5 piece mild steel bolts and they were inexplicably spinning when I would tighten them down. Well, the little plastic end cap on bolts this long wouldn't withstand the hammering during placement, became dislodged and the threads on the cone end filled up with sand and soon became fouled! About five or six spinners and I wasn't having a good time anymore. I had to continue climbing (at 5.11d!) above the mostly unreliable bolts until I finally arrived at an established belay stance! Not your typical sport route FA!
Sandstone is fortunately soft enough that outward pressure and wiggling was sufficient to extract the hateful little beggars while on rappel! The answer turned out to be a tiny spit ball of toilet paper jammed into the cone end underneath the cap that would keep the grit out.
Removing Powers (Rawl)5 piece and other mechanical expansion bolts in harder rock can be really tough with respect to removing the cone. My bolt puller should make expansion bolts much easier to deal with once they are loosened up.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Feb 25, 2007 - 08:52pm PT
|
Well metal heads, here are the goods. First, the bolt puller for up to 3/8".
Then there's the piton extractor.
And lastly, a vision of the future. Allow me to introduce the Space Station. This is an all stainless steel system designed for remote, high use belay/rappel anchors. Note the half link welded in as a wear bar to yield a 3/4" wear section. This should be good for 100+ years if used respectfully (no lowering under load). The hangers are an adaptation of an old Dolt design shown earlier on this thread.
Questions anyone?
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
I hope there is more interest in these gizmos once folks ckeck them out. The fork puller should be discontinued period IMO.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2007 - 01:23pm PT
|
The problem I can see with the bolt puller is the torque you put on the bolt head as you tighten the screws. The puller pulls through the hanger. The nice thing about the fork is that you can work it around adjusting the amount of force you are applying to the head, varying the angle, etc.
My concern may only be theoretical, of course, I haven't pulled that many bolts.
What would be best is if the extraction force could be as axial (with respect to the bolt and hole) as possible. I have thought of ways to do this, I'm guessing that there may actually be extraction tools out there that do it. But maybe not...
Great idea though, when do we get to see a trip report of the thing in action?!
Also, would you post the "drawings" of the thing, or write a description of how it's fabricated? Or would you like to sell them?
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
Steve,
How does your bolt puller stay upright? Do the 2 bolts really screw into those nuts on the base plate? If so, they would seem to have very limited vertical travel
Usually these plate type bolt/gear pullers have 4 bolts (one on each corner).
The tuning fork has the nice advantage that it's quite light (relative to the bolt kit), so it can be brought on long routes. For example, I used mine to replace a notorious belay bolt at the end of p7 on Liberty Crack a few years ago.
|
|
Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
|
|
Just an obvious plea for everyone to support ASCA. It is so impressive that this organization even exists! I've been sending them donations every year, upped the ante and became a corporate sponsor this year. Their work will save lives. AND make life better and more fun for all climbers. Oh, and Grossman, wicked cool bolt puller design!
|
|
john hansen
climber
|
|
Hey Ed ,, what if you had some sort of four pronged tong thing that would grab the bolt head ,and then as you tightend the bolts down a small section of pipe would force the chisel shaped tongs to grip tighter.
Think of a 'compass' ,like you draw a circle with, being forced into a pipe. It makes it close up. That way you could center the pull directly up from the bolt instead of the hanger. Would have to be some pretty good steel.
What you think..?
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
Clint- the drive bolts are tapered to a cone profile which fits inside undersized machine nuts (guide nuts) on the base plate. The drive bolts do not engage any threads on the base plate guide nuts which act as two swiveling points of contact at a fixed separation distance. The drive bolts don't directly contact or mark the stone while tightening.
Ed-The whole assembly can be tipped so as to crank the offset bolt hanger eye into line with the perpendicular axis of extraction with hopefully only one or two base repositionings. To extract buttonheads efficiently, tweaking the hanger seems unavoidable and the necessary prybars need to be available to extract the stud or fragment left behind if the stud and hanger separate. The advantage of this design is the steady pull applied.
I haven't had a chance to pluck anything yet to check out performance. I also need to knock out a run to see how much time each one takes. The design is entirely process driven and entirely between my ears. More details as soon as I can test the rascals.
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
Steve,
If you only have 2 points of contact against the rock (via the undersized nuts), that's not stable. It would probably be fine for the case where you thread the central nut onto a threaded bolt. But not when you go into the hanger with the U-bolt, because in that case the eye of the hanger is offset from the bolt and you will need to dedicate more than one arm to keep the puller upright (actually at some semi-neutral angle) once the two drive bolts get fairly tight.
|
|
Watusi
Social climber
Joshua Tree, CA
|
|
That is really badass and impressive to be sure!
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
Just makes you want to yank some steel eh watusi?
Clint- testing will tell the tale. The two point swivel design is intentional and should be stable under tension. The base plate is crucial to the design at this stage. A sunny day at Index is all that I need. Reversing the driving force used to place button heads should be fairly straightforward. I have a giant puller in the works for the really stubborn bolt types that will remove anything! More soon.
|
|
Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
|
|
Steve said, "A sunny day at Index is all I need."
You've been here for quite awhile now Steve, but sometimes I can still hear the Arizona in you. The rule in Washington is that if you wait for it to be sunny, sometimes you'll never get anything done!
|
|
Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
|
|
Hey Ed,
Bearing Splitter
I've always thought that a bearing splitter/puller would be a good
start to a new bolt puller design that would allow an axial pull.
I wonder if a slide hammer attatched to this might work?
Or maybe just use the standar screw type puller setup?
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 5, 2007 - 12:34am PT
|
Shack, I like the idea... you could have two wedges split like the Bearing Splitter, with a "half hole" on each to allow the bolt shaft to miss. You tighten the threaded rod (need to work it out so that you can actually do this against the rock) once you have that on, you use something like what Steve G. has put together that pick up threads in the split wedges.
Sounds cool, but complicated.... but then again, maybe not...
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
Off, you're right, I'm way too cheery. Forgot where I am again. Sorry. OK, OK then, i guess I'll have to go bolt the Space Needle in a downpour as penance. But wait, maybe bolting my retaining wall in a drizzle is miserable enough. Have to check the Sufferin' Soggification Index to see if I am getting my regional minimum daily dose of self abuse this way.
|
|
G_Gnome
Boulder climber
Sick Midget Land
|
|
Steve, do you think that is robust enough to pull perfectly good Petzl Long Life bolts? You know, the ones with the pin driven down thru the middle that are impossible to get out? I know of a row of them put up next to a perfectly good crack that had already gone clean that need to get pulled.
|
|
mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
|
|
G Gnome, I haven't pulled any "Long-Lifes", but I have put in a couple of dozen (face routes only) and think that you may still have a chance to remove them. If the crack bolters did not go out of their way to obtain a metric SDS bit (expensive and not shelf-handy), then the bolts are not perfectly fitted to the hole, though they may be snug, and are possibly pullable. Good luck.
edit: You may also be able to "thread" them out, since the hanger is attatched to the stud--leverage and a cheater bar are your best friends.
|
|
Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder
|
|
Between 1998 and 1999 I replaced a total of about 32 belay station/protection bolts on popular routes in Yosemite -
mainly stuff like Jam Crack, Butterballs, Wheat Thin, Reeds, etc.
Kevin Powell gave me tips on bolt removal - hole repair - and new bolt placement.
For removal I generally found driving a chisel BEHIND the hanger to act as an initial wedge, and create a gap worked well. Then a crowbar to lever the bolt out the rest of the way.
Some of the stations I replaced were so dangerous and dicey it gave me the chills during the "all-telling" removal process.
Tucker helped me a lot - but sometimes - Jam Crack, Reeds, I just soloed up.
I'm sorry I have no photos of the old/new bolts or anything.
|
|
GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
|
|
Not nearly as cool as a lot of the stuff posted here, but here's a nice Star Dryvin stil in situ (barely) on Stolen Chimney, Ancient Art:
GO
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
G Gnome- those Petzl bolts are a bitch but I have successfully chopped and patched the hole. What you need is a modified SDS bit that allows you to attach a wafer thin die grinder cutting wheel (or a die grinder if you have power available) to your rotohammer.
Cut two slots well into exposed bolt face and use a chisel to fold and fatigue the metal into the space created. By extracting little pieces, the entire exposed bolt and drive pin can be removed so that the hanger frees up. You are then left with the problem of nibbling away at the remainder until hopefully a couple of solid blows with a stout punch will push the mess below the rock surface enough to patch the hole with PC7 and appropriately colored sand or rock chips to finish it off.
My giant puller would probably blow a big cone out of the rock with this bolt type unless the center drive pin and anchoring cone were drilled out first to reduce the internal tension in the bolt. I have to keep repeating that only bolt types which are directly hammered into the rock for their holding power (contraction bolts) should be pulled directly out without reversing the installation process or it may become unpatchable cone blowout time. Don't pull bolts unless you understand these design constraints well enough to differentiate and select the appropriate extraction pathway and methodology.
|
|
426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
|
|
Neat thread. Heh, so you need a power drill for "power removal" in certain cases...
SG, very interesting tools and "future system". I hate some ring anchors as they have no place to clip save for the ring---bad for more than one party.
Way back machine...like the 90's?
He placed pine pitch on a pair of moccasins for that ascent....now that's some valley lore...thx Chicken Skinner.
|
|
G_Gnome
Boulder climber
Sick Midget Land
|
|
Thanks Steve, that makes sense. Just cut the stupid thing off and stuff it back down it's own hole and fill. Will do.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Mar 11, 2007 - 12:04am PT
|
Yup, sometimes push and patch is as good as it gets. Redrilling the hole is optimal but making the last one disappear works fine too. The day that I spent chopping and patching several Petzl bolts on a 5.7 route(on Hitchcock Rock at Windy Point in Tucson) was probably the least enjoyable day out ever for me. There is no such thing as a bolt that can't be removed, its just a question of residual damage. The bolt crazed idiot Ben Burnham thought his bolts couldn't be chopped in this case either. Dead wrong........
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Mar 11, 2007 - 04:35pm PT
|
Another tip for removing the Petzl monsters. Use the bolt hanger as a wear shield and make sure to drop your cutting wheel all the way through the hanger depth to just shy of the rock surface. This makes releasing the hanger from the first round of the metal nibbling much easier.
|
|
Solo
climber
|
|
|
Mar 12, 2007 - 04:11pm PT
|
I have removed several Petzl Longlife bolts by drilling out the center pin. Once the pin is gone, the springy metal pop back to its original shape, and can usually be easily pulled out of the hole.
Good luck!
|
|
Dimes
Social climber
Joshua Tree
|
|
|
Mar 12, 2007 - 06:09pm PT
|
The Petzl Longlife bolts are usually fairly easy to remove. You start by driving a bugaboo pin under the hanger and then move up to a thick Lost Arrow. The pin usually pops back out of the center after a few minutes of work. Once the pin is loose you can use a claw hammer to remove the actual bolt. Not the best bolt for soft rock.
|
|
G_Gnome
Boulder climber
Sick Midget Land
|
|
|
Mar 12, 2007 - 07:31pm PT
|
Hey Kevin, bring your tools up to Courtwright with us this summer and lets tear some bolts out!
|
|
LongAgo
Trad climber
|
|
|
Mar 12, 2007 - 09:29pm PT
|
Fun to see old bolts. Having placed many in the day, I was trying to remember what was the LONGEST time any bolt took to place. I recall a funny climb with Pat Ament where we placed a bolt by pounding the drill with a rock because, of course, we forgot the hammer! Think it took about an hour. Maybe it is still there on "Soarks," somewhere on the backside of the Flatirons, CO.
Then there were a couple of 3/8” guys placed on "Shake and Bake," Balconies Pinnacles National Monument. The thing was so steep it was very hard to start drilling without tipping over backwards. With all the gentle hammer tapping to start, seems like a couple of bolts took 45 minutes or so. Vandiver might remember better than I do. I know my toes were numb for days ...
Tom Higgins
LongAgo
|
|
Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
|
|
|
Mar 13, 2007 - 07:12am PT
|
Geeze, Tom, a rock? Funny.
I can envision you and Pat as those Geico ad guys—erudite patter punctuated by primitive tools. Deadpan bemused looks facing camera.
Roger
|
|
Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
|
|
|
Mar 13, 2007 - 10:13am PT
|
Maybe 10 years old?
Warm salty environment + limestone + stainless-clad steel = less than body-weight strength, pretty fast
|
|
Cuckawalla
Trad climber
Grand Junction, CO
|
|
|
Apr 15, 2007 - 09:51pm PT
|
A Nice Anchor we Found at the Top of Flora Dora In Unaweep. Good ol Chain. The chain was just pounded into the crack. All Sorta brought together with some mank webbing. Bomber! Another station has a hole all the way through a rock, more chain poked through and brought together for a rap station. Seems like a lot of work hauling up that much chain. Hmm.. Screwing the Second.
Jesse
|
|
Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
|
|
Sitting here working on the list of what got accomplished this season and during a break in the action I saw this post. I am going to try to post a photo from this season.
This is the first time I have tried this :-)
This is an off route bolt that was placed on the first attempt on the route known as Snake Dike.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
Late 1950's/ early 60's era Longware hanger. Eric Beck must have placed that bolt and I bet that there is a story waiting. Where was the bolt with respect to the established line?
|
|
sethsquatch76
Trad climber
Joshua tree ca
|
|
when sex was safe and climbing was dangerous......
|
|
Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
|
|
Steve,
That was the first bolt on the route now known as Snake Dance. The first bolt on Eye in the Sky was also much older than the other bolts and was found to be a bit lower and further to the right than that shown on the topo. I would guess that it was also an early Snake Dike bolt. Maybe Eric, Jim, or Chris will tell us the story.
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
From Steve Roper's nice description of Snake Dike in the Supertopo Yosemite Valley Free Climbs guidebook:
Years later, Beck reminisced about their climb.
"We were expecting a much harder route and only had twelve bolts,
so we did our best to conserve them where the climbing was easy.
What I really imagined happening was that we would get up a few pitches,
fix the ropes, and return with more bolts.
Also, our original choice of line was to follow a dike leading up and right on Pitch 3.
This was Bridwell's lead and he climbed up about 20 feet,
got in a bolt, but didn't like it.
This caused more uncertainty about routefinding and wasting our bolts.
I then gained the lead and had a look to the left.
This proved to be the best way.
-----
|
|
cowpoke
climber
|
|
Rapping over Problem Child (10d R, Whitehorse Ledge) a few weeks ago, I wondered what the retreat story might have been.
|
|
Gagner
climber
Boulder
|
|
Shipoopi and I did the South Face of Watkins in 1978 or 1979. I led the 3rd(?) pitch to a ledge with one 1/4" bolt, and where you could get some additional gear for the belay. Steve jugged the pitch while I hauled (on the bolt - I don't recall knowing anything about equalizing anchors back then), then he led the next pitch. When I unclipped from the bolt to jug and clean the next pitch it literally fell out in my hands - it was broken about half way through. I still have the original hanger, but lost the bolt over the years.
Paul
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
Roger- Were you able to remove that EB bolt without destroying it? That is worth holding on to. Most folks didn't bother to stamp their hangers.
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
Roger saves all the pulled bolts and hangers in plastic bags labelled with the date, route and pitch, in case there are questions later.
|
|
cragnshag
Social climber
san joser
|
|
We replaced a couple Spencer routes in the Balls recently. Modern SS bolt shown for scale. We used 304 SS Powerbolts 3/8" dia x 2 1/4" for the replacement.
|
|
Greg Barnes
climber
|
|
Nice! 1/4" Taper bolts - lucky to get two of the full lead sleeves out!
Those Spencer hangers are actually pretty thick, they seem bomber. Mega Bleam in Tuolumne has those on 3/8" bolts. It's a fun route on some dome...what was it again? Can't recall the name....
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
I would be happy to trade the ASCA or Roger some hardware in excange for that EB Longware hanger unless the rules of evidence preclude such a swap! LOL
|
|
k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
|
Great story Paul.
Here's one you might appreciate...I was following a pitch at the Pinnacles (Balconies Reg), it was an old bolt ladder. I looked up and yelled to my partner "Hey, one of your pieces fell out..." When I got up to the "piece" that had slid down to the lower bolt, I found that it was the hanger of a bolt attached to the quick draw.
Confidence!
|
|
Gagner
climber
Boulder
|
|
Ha, ha Kelly - for a second there I thought you were going to say it was a bolt fom one of my old routes!! That's frickin' hilarious.....
Paul
|
|
Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
|
|
Steve,
Over the years I have acquired quite a collection. During the off season the bolts/hangers are removed from the plastic bags, the bolts secured to the hangers, and the hangers tagged with a shipping tag. At this time, the ones I feel are special, are set aside. The rest go into storage. There is also a daily written record kept during the season. The bolts/hangers, for the most part, are not damaged at all during removal. There is no way to put a price on any of this stuff. I am kinda a self appointed caretaker. Ken will probably end up with any of it he wants to display.
|
|
Jim E
climber
away
|
|
Here's an ugly one from the 'not so wayback'.
Can you say 'corrosion stress fracture'?
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
That's ugly - what's the story there? Plated, stainless? Mixed metals?
|
|
Jim E
climber
away
|
|
Stainless. Sea cliff.
|
|
Jim E
climber
away
|
|
More of the story is that this was from a study performed by some members of the UIAA Safety Commission. There were a lot of crazy low breaks on the hanger samples. Beware when climbing bolted sea cliffs or anywhere near the sea.
|
|
Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
|
|
Where was that Fixe from?
There have got to be 10's of 1000s of seaside bolts on the Med. They don't seem to suffer from SCC?
Gotta be from someplace way more humid. Thailand, Vietnam or Cayman Brac?
Crazy.
|
|
slobmonster
Trad climber
OAK (nee NH)
|
|
Clipped this relic in Huntington Ravine last week.
As it's at the start, i.e. placed at ground level, it does not need to replace. Who wants to wager when Central Gully will finally eradicate the thing?
|
|
Jim E
climber
away
|
|
I'm not sure where that Fixe came from but it was part of a study involving samples from many places around the Med as well as several tropical sea environments.
Here is the initial report.
http://www.theuiaa.org/news_199_Extreme-caution-advised-for-anchors-in-tropical-marine-areas
A more detailed report was issued at the last UIAA Safety Commission meeting back in May. Not sure when that will be put online.
edit: Actually the full report is in PDF form linked at the end of the initial report I linked above.
second edit: I take it back. That PDF appears incomplete when I compare it to the one presented at the meeting. The one from the meeting is 6 pages.
|
|
Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
|
|
Here are two very well crafted bolt hangers from deep in the Lost Arrow Chimney. Possibly forged and placed by John Salathe himself.
The ringed one was pulled with little effort from Pitch 9 (in the Reid guide).
The one without was pulled by hand from the Safety Valve pitch.
|
|
Juan Maderita
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
|
|
slobmonster,
That's an old hanger, but has not reached "relic" status (unless you are leading 20' above it, LOL).
It's an MHE (Marc Hughston Enterprises) chromoly hanger. Circa mid-eighties. At first glance, they might appear similar to the Leeper hangers. A closer look shows that the bend is to the opposite side, making it easier for right-handed hammering. The sheet metal is thicker and heat-treated. It's a very strong hanger. The eye is bigger to accomodate two biners.
Around 1990, I got the dies from Marc and had 750 or 1000 made out of thick 304 stainless steel. Those were placed in northern Baja. The machinist subsequently lost or scrapped the dies, so there will never be another production run. While not a relic yet, it is a "dinosaur" - extinct!
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
Nice ones, Chad!
Kelly,
I was scared leading Balconies Regular p2 when Bruce and I rebolted it. Kinda pumped, did not want to fall onto one of those bolts, so I was trying to decide if I should grab one to pull past. Would it hold up under my (minimal) weight? I grabbed it and it held. Whew!
Vintage hangers still in place and still good - those are the best:
|
|
Acer
Big Wall climber
AZ
|
|
I was looking through my guides I don't see Balconies Regular anywhere. Found The Balconies of course but hardly any routes.
|
|
Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
|
|
I'm not sure where that Fixe came from but it was part of a study involving samples from many places around the Med as well as several tropical sea environments.
I'm seeing only bolts/anchors from the Dominican Republic.
UIAA apparently discussed this back in May, but, I can't seem to find any information from that discussion.
I don't see much, if any, reference to anchors on the Med. Instead, its "tropical marine environments" that seem to be the issue.
The UIAA reported in October 2009 that anchors used on routes in these environments weakened due to corrosion caused by the sea and year round wet climates.
It was found that 10 to 20 per cent would fail with a force of 1 to 5 KN applied. The Safety Commission will discuss minimum lifetime targets for anchors in marine environments, choosing a corrosion resistant material, and recommendations for anchors already in place.
Scary stuff.
Vested interest for me, as I'll probably be clipping bolts seaside in Finale Ligure in a couple of weeks...
Thanks,
-Brian in SLC
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
If you had Brad's Pinnacles guide, you would find these routes at the Balconies:
710. Happy Hamlin's Horrendous Hangover 5.10b R FA: unknown
711. If We Bolt It FA: Clint Cummins, Dennis Erik Strom, 11/1993
712. Bongloadash 5.8 FA(fs): James McConachie, Jon McConachie, 10/1985
713. Premeditated 5.5 A3 FA: Jim Bridwell, Craig Little, 2/1965
714. Where the Birds Hang 5.10a R FA: Joe Bryant ?, 1980s
715. Peregrine - Free 5.12a * FFA: Stu Polack, Marty Garrison, 12/1988
716. Peregrine 5.9 R A1 * FA: Dave Parks, Stu Polack, 1986
717. Conduit to the Cosmos 5.10d R *** FA(p1-p2): John Barbella, James McConachie, 1983
718. Conduit to the Cosmos - Continuation 5.12a FA(complete): James McConachie, John Barbella, 9/2002 FFA(p3): Tony(?) Hayden, __, 2004?
719. Pipeloads to Pluto 5.11c FA: Paul Gagner, James McConachie, <1991
720. Lava Falls 5.9 *** FA(fs): Jack Holmgren, W.V. Graham Matthews III, Keith Vandevere, Joe Bryant, 3/1982 FP(fs): Tom Higgins, placed the first few bolts, then did not continue
721. No Sense of Measure 5.11a ** FA: James McConachie, Jon McConachie, 10/1989
722. The Powers That Be 5.11b ** FA: Paul Gagner, James McConachie, 10/1989
723. Electric Blue 5.11a ** FA: Paul Gagner, Chris Bellizzi, 1988
724. Shake and Bake 5.10a R *** FA(fs): Tom Higgins, Chris Vandiver, 5/1976
725. On the Threshold of a Scream 5.10b FA: James McConachie, John Barbella, <1991
726. Balconies - Regular Route 5.10b FA: Frank Sacherer, Howard Bradley, Steve Roper, 12/1961 FFA: Tom Higgins, Chris Vandiver, 5/1979 RBC: Clint Cummins, FOP, 2006
727. Digger 5.10a FA: Jim Beyer, Bob Sullivan, 10/1978
728. Hook and Drill 5.9 R FA: Jim Beyer, Janice Linhares, <1979
729. Better Without Bushes 5.10a R FFA: Dennis Erik Strom, Steve Wilcox, 1/2001
730. Raze the Buddha 5.11a FP: Dennis Erik Strom, 1/2006
731. Knifeblade Direct 5.8 FA: Ken Philips, Carl Martin, 2/1973
732. Stiletto 5.10d * FA: Norman Boles, John Gotti, 1988
733. Knifeblade 5.5 * FA: unknown
734. Blade Runner 5.4 FA: John Barbella, James McConachie, 11/1984 SA: bolts placed on subsequent solo ascent
735. Exit Route 5.6 FA: unknown
736. Echoes 5.8 FA(fs): James McConachie, Jon McConachie, 5/1986
737. Prairie Home Companion 5.7 R FA(p1): Jon Cochran, Gabe Carvey, 1984 FA(p2-p3, fs): Jack Holmgren, Keith Vandevere, David Zola, 5/1984
738. Nexus 5.11a ** FA(p1-p2, fs): Jack Holmgren, Malintha Winwood, Keith Vandevere, Bob Otter, 9/1984 FA(p3, fs): Jack Holmgren, was approached via a diagonal rappel, so an onsight FA
739. Sexus 5.8 R FA(fs): Jack Holmgren, Malintha Winwood, 9/1984
740. Plexus 5.6 R FA(fs): Jack Holmgren, Malintha Winwood, 8/1984
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
By the way, the "interesting" syntax on supertopo which uses 2 asterisks to start/end Bold Text does not like the above text with various asterisks.
If I try to edit it, I can't get to climb 720 and beyond.
I wanted to add:
FA(fs) means the bolts were placed from free stances (no aid) on the FA.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Dec 26, 2010 - 01:07pm PT
|
Bbbbbbbecause...
|
|
nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
|
|
|
Dec 26, 2010 - 01:16pm PT
|
one of these hangers came off a GUD bolt. put a SS hanger on said bolt
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Dec 26, 2010 - 11:54pm PT
|
Nice Bandito hangers!
Nice Dolt and Porter hangers, too! Where did Charlie use those things?
|
|
Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
|
|
|
Dec 27, 2010 - 12:49am PT
|
Sheba
|
|
bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
|
|
|
Dec 27, 2010 - 01:10am PT
|
"Why did Charlie use those things?" Homemade hangers are pretty cheap!
Bruce
ps- I can almost see using steel stock, but aluminum? Yikes!
|
|
mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
|
|
|
Dec 27, 2010 - 01:59am PT
|
Hey Minerals-
Sheba is the aid line correct? Those are the only bolts on the route?
What is that thing rated these days? A3....
Mucci
|
|
Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
|
|
|
Dec 27, 2010 - 12:32pm PT
|
Yes, Mucci. One lead bolt and two belay bolts, just like the topo. Got a half-written TR that I should finish up and post, maybe later this week.
Those Porter hangers are kind of sharp. No grinding, filing, or nothin’! Double yikes.
Hey Ken Yeager – not sure if you are at all interested, but if you don’t already have some of those homemade Porter hangers in your collection, I’d be happy to pass them along. If you already have some, I’d also be happy to keep ‘em.
|
|
Mark Not-circlehead
climber
Martinez, CA
|
|
|
Dec 27, 2010 - 02:20pm PT
|
I did "Shake and Bake" ( above in the list of PNM Baclonies climbs) in the early 90's. Very scary........did those bolts get replaced?
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
|
Dec 28, 2010 - 03:02am PT
|
Many, but not all of the bolts on Shake and Bake were replaced on January 11, 2009 by Brian Biega, Erik Strom, F4Boy and myself.
p1: no bolts replaced (except anchor at end of pitch)
p2: all but first bolt replaced
p3: 2 of 3 bolts replaced
replaced with 1/2" x 6" glue-in bolts, courtesy of Brian (and all of us who helped pull/drill).
We replaced most of the bolts on Lava Falls the previous day, including a 1/2" x 6" glue-in pro for the crux on p1.
I owe a photo trip report on this....
|
|
rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
|
|
|
Dec 28, 2010 - 09:15am PT
|
I stated this before in other threads, but "GUD" or "No GUD" on bandito hangers refers to Marshall Gud aka Jim Waugh and his "do right" exploits of the very late 1970's and early 1980's.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Dec 28, 2010 - 12:33pm PT
|
I only got to place one Bandito hanger on an obscure route at Windy Point in Tucson. It says "Bad Bolt!"
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Dec 29, 2010 - 09:52pm PT
|
And you need that Bolt...Bad!
|
|
Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
|
|
|
Dec 29, 2010 - 10:56pm PT
|
I have been on the mission to replace bolts here in Alaska and thanks a ton to the ASCA who has helped me get started by providing replacement bolts! Ive gone out about 5 times now and I think the warmest that is had been is about 15 degrees. It was below Zero for one of those replacement efforts but what else am I going to do during the slow season?
I do have few a questions though. What could some drawbacks be to replacing bolts when it is so frigid and obviously everything is frozen?
Here are some old bolt images that my girlfriend took this last summer. What kind of bolts / hangers are these?
Using a crowbar I soon broke and improper use of a caribiner...
What are these? Found a couple of them. They go in almost an inch...
Lots of bolts missing hangers out there...
Were clicked into something here...
This was a bunch of recent junk taken from two climbs. The one one the far right is 3/4" long and the ring bent with just normal pressure.
|
|
StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
|
|
|
Dec 29, 2010 - 11:32pm PT
|
Minerals,
Holy Crap, I remember those aluminum bolts. Always made me think twice.....
|
|
nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
|
|
|
Dec 29, 2010 - 11:34pm PT
|
rick d, can you direct me to more of the story?
|
|
Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
|
|
|
Dec 29, 2010 - 11:44pm PT
|
“What could some drawbacks be to replacing bolts when it is so frigid and obviously everything is frozen?”
As a guess, it seems like in super cold temperatures, the chances of snapping some of the old metal would be greater than if you were pulling the old stuff, say in the summer sun, when the metal would be much more likely to bend than snap/crack. It’s always good to be able to pull all of the old metal out of a hole if you are replacing old bolts. That way, you can reuse/drill out the old hole. Way to go on getting involved in bolt replacement!
First few photos look like a standard 1/4” split-shank thread-head bolt and a Leeper hanger. The fifth photo looks like a rusty stainless Fixe wedge bolt. Last photo looks like original plated SMC “death hangers” and Rawl 5/16” buttonhead bolts. Not sure about the two items in the upper right, but the ring bolt on the lower right looks like the ones that are/were at some of the belays on El Cap. They look like Euro bolts that have been added. Anyways, some of ‘em look like they have been hauled off of a few times because the rings become stretched and deformed. Yeah, great bolts...
StahlBro, yeah, nice hanger, eh? That bolt was placed at a huge stance, so luckily, I was able to pull it and replace it on lead (easy ground).
It’s threads like this that should make us all appreciate organizations like ASCA all the more!
Edit:
Not sure, but wonder if drill bits may be more susceptible to chipping/breaking in super cold temperatures. Seems like it makes sense. I’ve had this thought during the late season in Tuolumne, but those temps are balmy compared to what you are used to.
Well, Sushi Guy... It's true!
+100 for ASCA!
|
|
nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
|
|
|
Dec 29, 2010 - 11:49pm PT
|
It’s threads like this that should make us all appreciate organizations like ASCA all the more!
yah mon. well said, Brian.
+1
|
|
Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
|
|
Thank you for the post Minerals!
I haven't had any problems with drill bits snapping yet. It has been below zero a few times while I was bolting. The drill died faster for sure.
Today was amazing. A beautiful 30 degrees and the scenery couldn't be better. Pulled 15 bolts and didn't leave anything in the rock. Although I found that most of the holes are not in rock I would ever bolt in so I had to add another hole nearby. One bolt I put the bar on it and just pushed it right out. I hadn't even put the hammer to it yet. Scary!
about half the bolts I pulled were actually in drill pockets that were drilled vertically. Three bolts in one super long shattered drill pocket. They were super easy to pull.
Oh and why are they called SMC Death Hangers? I think all 15 of the bolts I pulled today were the same thing.
ASCA Is AWWESSOME! Free full page spread in the next Alaska rock climbing guide for the ASCA, thanks for all the hard work and hardware!
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
> Oh and why are they called SMC Death Hangers?
I don't know of anybody who actually died because one failed.
I think that term is used to emphasize the difference between the 2 common types of SMC hangers -
the older ones are chrome moly steel (like Leepers) but chrome plated (they might crack),
the newer ones are thick stainless steel and are very strong.
|
|
dave goodwin
climber
carson city, nv
|
|
On our ascent of Mescalito this summer we replaced two bolts at our last bivy (three pitches from the top).
both were old quarter inchers. On the first bolt my partner Eric clipped the funkness to the hanger after loosening it with a tuning fork. It took several good yanks with the funkness to get the bolt to come out.
when it finally did we were amazed to find nothing attached to the hammer. the whole set up, carabiners funkness and the old bolt with hanger, just hurled into the unknown.
so if anyone finds an old hanger attached to a funkness at the base you know where it came from. With the force to yank it out it probably took a pretty good trajectory and probably landed way out in the trees.
take care
dave
|
|
bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
|
|
About the SMC Death Hangers... didn't the three guys from Minnesota who fell retreating on the Nose in 1978 die because of a broken thin SMC hanger at the rappel station? They accidentally dropped their haul bag an entire pitch and when it came taught on the anchor the hanger snapped. Unfortunately, they had clipped around the chain between the two anchor bolts and not into the anchor bolts directly.
Bruce
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
The stainless steel SMC hangers have a spotless performance record unlike the plated chromoloy versions that had the same accelerated stress corrosion problems as the Leeeper chromoly hangers.
Center hanger is clearly cracked.
|
|
Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
|
|
|
Feb 28, 2011 - 04:30pm PT
|
Ran across my first Dolt Bolt. Whats the time period on this thing?
Some other new stuff.
|
|
OlympicMtnBoy
climber
Seattle
|
|
|
Feb 28, 2011 - 07:34pm PT
|
More fun old bolting gear from some stuff I inherited from a retiring friend. The blue drill seems to want a different taper on the bit shank than the larger drill or I'd use it for alpine stuff. I got a bit stuck in it and didn't have room to get the key in to get it out.
I wonder what the heck the split shaft button heads on the middle with an eye for a cotter ring were for. I assume random non-climbing bits mixed in but I'm glad I haven't come across any of those holding something on.
|
|
cragnshag
Social climber
san joser
|
|
|
Feb 28, 2011 - 08:33pm PT
|
I wonder what the heck the split shaft button heads on the middle with an eye for a cotter ring were for
Those are used for hanging acoustical ceilings and whatnot to the underside of concrete floors. You thread the hole with a wire and run the wire to the suspended ceiling. Plenty strong.
In theory you could use a cotter pin to "secure" a bolt hanger to the rock, then go back later with pliers and retrieve your hangers.
I suppose if you ever encountered one of those on lead you could get your car keys out and put the ring through it, then clip the ring............
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
|
|
|
Feb 28, 2011 - 09:30pm PT
|
ship those buttonheads to me for good use!
:)
|
|
Captain...or Skully
climber
The Seas of Stone.
|
|
|
Feb 28, 2011 - 09:37pm PT
|
Isn't it funky how you clip into this old bolt, feels solid, then funk it out and you realize just HOW sketchy the thing really was? Yeesh.
Here's to the upgraders. Community service indeed.
|
|
JP.Franklin
Trad climber
Santiago-CHILE
|
|
|
Aug 10, 2011 - 07:43pm PT
|
Undusted kit we used in the good old eigties.
|
|
tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
|
|
|
Aug 10, 2011 - 08:14pm PT
|
My kit from the early 90's
As to replacing bolts in the winter, my understanding from dealing with various arctic engineering projects is -20F is the threshold where you have to start worrying about the performance of structural steel being affected by the temperature. So if you're hard core enough to be replacing bolts at -30, yes metal imbrittlement will be an issue.
What's suprised me over the years of replacing bolts in various locals is how much difference there is in both the soundness of old bolts, and in the rock. The last couple bolts I replaced a few years back were on this formation.
They were 1/4" buttonheads in ss smc hangers, and within 100' of saltw#ter, not to mention rainfall and winter freeze thaw. I'd have to check the guide book to see when they were placed, but I'm thinking they were at least 20 years old when I changed them out. The rock is fractured sedimentary sandstone/choss. They were some of the most difficult button heads I've ever pulled!
Not that I fealt bad about putting in 1/2" ss bolts, but sometimes those old bolts aren't as bad as they look, yet ofetn times they are much worse!
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Jan 21, 2012 - 12:31pm PT
|
Cold metal bump...
|
|
justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
|
|
|
Jan 21, 2012 - 01:09pm PT
|
We clipped this one just last week down in El Potrero Chico. Not just for fun. The first modern bolt was 30 feet off the ground.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Jan 21, 2012 - 01:13pm PT
|
How do you say FUNK in spanish?
|
|
justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
|
|
|
Jan 21, 2012 - 02:29pm PT
|
El manko?
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2012 - 08:41pm PT
|
Funk Mank- Great name for a lousy route...
|
|
guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2012 - 09:01pm PT
|
This brought back some old memories of climbing at the St Helena Palisades with some rather sketchy hangers we fabricated and placed!
"I remember doing some routes in the Palisades with Roper in the early 60's. We made up these crazy bolt hangers out of old license plates!
A short lived adventure into making hardware. We borrowed some ginormnous Eucalyptus stumps from the golf range in Tilden Park for our "anvil", and set up shop in Ropers backyard.
Not one of the most intelligent things we ever did. Then again not one of the dumbest."
|
|
David Wilson
climber
CA
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2012 - 09:31pm PT
|
Left side of Reeds, second pitch, has an old rusted LA with a 1/4" stud through it - that must be original
|
|
mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2012 - 11:17pm PT
|
Every one of those bolts look completely bomber nearly 40 years later.
Rather have those than the crap on valley walls.
thanks for the pics!
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2012 - 11:35pm PT
|
Impressive wreath of eurobolts!
Equally impressive home-made widow makers there Joe! LOL
Great eulogy material though...His number was up...Tabs expired...License suspended...Plates retired.
|
|
KabalaArch
Trad climber
Starlite, California
|
|
.25" X 1.25" (??) StarDryvin w/a Layton Kor Hanger from the Kingfisher Tower, Fisher Towers, UT
Don't remember that particular placement, but it's only been 15 years. I remember 1 new bolt that Bill placed on the 1st pitch. But he was soloing, so let's forgive. Other than the occasional A3 placement, the "bolts" on the NE Colorado Ridge were 5/16" x 1/2" machine bolts, pounded into 1/4" holes. No expansion sleeves, no hangers...just enough of a projection to slip a hero loop over. These you do not bounce test. I have one from the 1st pitch in my office, which was amorous enough to fall into my hand.
Don't know if there are any "spoon hangers" left in Tuolumne. No names, word was these were favored by the FAist so they could stand up on them to drill the next bolt above. These are on some of the 1st 5.11's established up there. I guess some are still up on Piwyack, since I've only seen one other party, on one of the routes which branches off an unprotected 80' 5.9 approach pitch (to keep the riffraff off, I suppose), since 1976.
Thanks for the trip down memory lane. I guess I got myself retired before the new stuff went in; the photos show pretty well what was to be expected. Glad I never took a fall on one of these.
Steve G. - Funny you should mention Pieces of Eight (Burk-Schneider). I was one of a veritable army of belay slaves conscripted by Scott, in whatever year he dedicated an entire summer ascending. I helped on the 3rd or 4th pitch - it was easier to traverse over from Paradise Lost to regain his high point.
I remember an inbound medivac helicopter choppering its way, just beneath our feet; or so it seemed. I think it was for a friend who'd been rather seriously injured on Selaginella that day, as I was to learn later.
It took an entire day to extend the route by 1 bolt! And, since you've been up there, you know, in Scott's case, that can mean a lot of vertical gain. Made it to a crater we nicknamed "The Welder's Lighter," after some poor welder who'd blown himself to smithereens when a spark hit a Bic lighter in his pocket, then in the news.
After we got down, Scott led nearby Gravity's Rainbow 5.12...I couldn't quite pull the crux. But, with a TR established, Scott proceeded to reclimb up to the stance, in a direct line, ignoring the meanderings of the route proper. 5.13?
Scott sent me home, which lay over Tioga - he asked me to relay a message to Steve S., should I see him in The Meadows. Which duty I dispatched.
Scott was pleased with his achievement afterwards. At the time, he felt stung by the HOM controversy, and embarked upon a decade of establishing difficult, long, and runnout routes in the Valley and the Meadows. I had to remind him that this route of his would not last for time and eternity, at least in terms of Middle Catherdral's lifespan. "How long do you think your bolts are going to last up there?"
Frankly, I wondered if Pieces would ever see a repeat. Thanks for clearing up that mystery!
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2013 - 11:52am PT
|
Bump for the Gold!
|
|
The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
|
I pulled these crusty old bolts out of the Point of Moab. Harvey T. Carter specials.
|
|
Scott Thelen
Trad climber
Truckee, Ca
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2013 - 03:31pm PT
|
|
|
Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
|
|
|
Mar 26, 2014 - 11:21am PT
|
Big BUMP for some bolt history!
|
|
pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
|
|
|
Mar 26, 2014 - 11:54am PT
|
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Mar 26, 2014 - 12:23pm PT
|
Guido, know I know where the phrase 'young and dumb' originates from.
Wow, that Eiger bolt must weigh a half a pound! How hard was it to pull?
|
|
le_bruce
climber
Oakland, CA
|
|
|
Mar 26, 2014 - 01:02pm PT
|
Posted these in various other places but maybe belong here:
Top of Jack Pinnacle (or Pat?)
From the Magical Mystery Tour:
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
|
Mar 26, 2014 - 03:06pm PT
|
These beauties came from Ron Carson's Dome Rock route "Carson-Ogenic". These bolts protected run out 5.11d moves. (I replaced them in the same holes with bolts which might actually work).
|
|
pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
|
|
|
Mar 26, 2014 - 11:52pm PT
|
nice Ksolem!
here are some Stoney Pieces.
Love the Bolt thread's on the Taco!
found em near the freeway!
|
|
Laine
Trad climber
Reno, NV
|
|
|
Mar 27, 2014 - 01:51am PT
|
Super interesting thread! Great history. Amazing how varied and scarily modern looking some of these old bolts look (salathe bolt). Far ahead of the license plate hangers. The "Bolts were trad first" quote by Roger Breedlove is so true.
|
|
Flip Flop
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
|
|
|
Mar 29, 2014 - 10:34pm PT
|
I'm pretty sure this is a Warren Harding original from the West Face of Conness. It popped out when I popped off.
|
|
bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
|
|
|
Mar 30, 2014 - 01:53am PT
|
That looks like a 1/4" Star Dryvin. The nail is slightly less than 3/16" which makes the shear strength pretty low. The overall diameter coupled with the way Star Dryvins work make the pull out strength pretty darn low as well. This was a very poor choice of a bolt for free climbing even when it was new!
|
|
Flip Flop
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
|
|
|
Mar 30, 2014 - 06:41pm PT
|
The bolt was placed in1959, 10 years before my birth. It popped around 1994.
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
|
|
I'm pretty sure this is a Warren Harding original from the West Face of Conness. It popped out when I popped off.
Full value!
I did that route in that same time frame, didn't clip those bolts, wondered how much fuse was burned on this time bombs:)
|
|
MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
Great thread. Fun to read and reminisce.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
May 16, 2015 - 01:18pm PT
|
Bump for fishtrap...
This thread is a fantastic historical resource to share with your students.
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
May 16, 2015 - 04:54pm PT
|
Bolts seem to have been "grandfathered" in because of there liberal use during the "golden age" of Yosemite. Now, it seems, the only ethical consideration is on how they are placed....top down or bottom up......hmmmm.
|
|
Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
|
|
|
May 16, 2015 - 07:32pm PT
|
Appropriate usage of an old SMC hanger, chain keeper for the gate into the sheep yard.
|
|
jonnyrig
climber
|
|
|
May 16, 2015 - 10:38pm PT
|
Odd little 1/4 inch above Woodfords. Head high, no hanger, just chillin there, like it was practice or something.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
May 16, 2015 - 11:15pm PT
|
So Jim, how many bolts have you placed during your career?
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
May 17, 2015 - 06:37am PT
|
Steve....I've placed a total of two bolts by hand drill on alpine, alpine rock, or trad cragging FAs over a 49 year period. That would total hundreds of pitches....many in remote venues in Alaska, Patagonia, China, Anarctica and the Himalaya. Those two bolts were on the first ascent of Torre Egger in 1976.
I have placed around 50 bolts with a bosh drill in the last few years establishing a few sport routes around my place in Chile.
|
|
rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
|
|
|
May 17, 2015 - 06:51am PT
|
But donini you have clipped a lot of other peoples bolts when repeating routes.
I wish we would only hand drill to slow down hole placement.
|
|
Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
|
|
|
May 17, 2015 - 07:03am PT
|
Steve,
I am so glad you asked,
None.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
May 17, 2015 - 12:32pm PT
|
Jim- I figured that you hadn't placed very many but 2 is a proud total!
I have placed hundreds of them in various situations but I consider the need for each and every one.
During the course of working on my book project with Tom Frost I asked him if he had ever stood on a bolt while placing another. He thought about it for a minute and then responded that he probably hadn't ever drilled even a two bolt ladder along the way. Then with a classic Frost grin he said" I will tell you one thing, I have chopped more bolts than I ever placed!"
|
|
Woody the Beaver
Trad climber
Soldier, Idaho
|
|
|
May 18, 2015 - 03:11pm PT
|
Still life with lower jawbone of critter! The hangers still look pretty stout and well made.
|
|
karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
|
|
|
May 22, 2015 - 04:25pm PT
|
I was digging through my storage and came across one of my bolt hanger display boards. Back in 1999 when I was a home husband changing diapers, I put together 20 or so display boards of bolt hangers, hooks and hand drills. This is one of the hanger boards. The first photo is the overall board, and photos below are closer up sections of the board.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
May 22, 2015 - 04:39pm PT
|
Nice collection Marty!
BANDITO
NO GUD
BAD BOLT
How many different stampings have you seen?
|
|
karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
|
|
|
May 22, 2015 - 05:09pm PT
|
I visited Danny Langmade (Bandito) back in 1999, and this he believes is all of the different stamps or at least 95% of them which they created. I also have the Jim Waugh apartment door Bandito hangers which are stamped “M.GUD,” for that Marshall Gud story. Good times!
In my notes I show:
“Bandito” (angled stamp) 1979
“Bad Bolt” 1980
“Bandito” (vertical stamp) 1982
“No Gud” 1985
“Bandito” (horizontal stamp) 1990
“F-ED UP” 1996
“F-D UP” 1996
“ICE-T” 1996
“M. GUD” - Waugh story (don’t have the year date off hand)
For some reason I thought there was a "OH SH#T" Bandito hanger also?
Hmmmmm
Actually there is which is shown on photo middle left of Bandito hangers, photo copy on yellow card. probably 1990 era
|
|
karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
|
|
Along with other rusty gear, this hanger was in an auction on ebay years ago. It may be a John Pickard keyhole hanger.
|
|
| Messages 1 - 216 of total 216 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Aluminum hanger and bolt from Lamb Dome, Tuolumne Meadows (1960’s?)
Let us know!