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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 21, 2016 - 07:22pm PT
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2016/08/18/confusion-at-every-level-of-the-park-service/
‘Confusion at every level’ of the Park Service
I don't understand this, below. You can be sure that he keeps his pension. Odds are that this is only what we know about. His house and car was used in the commission of this crime, they should be confiscated.
I don't agree with lengthy prison sentences for this, he is no violence risk, and I see no reason to house him on the taxpayer dime. But this is not anywhere enough.
Thomas A. Munson is a former Effigy Mounds superintendent who has been held accountable, albeit long after his criminal deeds. In 1990, he stole remains of 41 Native Americans, more than 2,100 individual pieces, then concealed them in garbage bags in cardboard boxes in his garage. He was sentenced last month to 10 weekends in jail, 12 months of home confinement, plus probation and more than $100,000 in restitution.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Denver CO
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Aug 21, 2016 - 08:15pm PT
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If they would just stop building stuff, they'd bulldoze over less Indian ruins too. NPS is too focused on developing tourist attractions, and not focused enough on preservation. Yosemite being the prime example.
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chill
climber
The fat part of the bell-curve
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Aug 21, 2016 - 10:43pm PT
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Jody has nailed it:
The NPS has been falling apart since the 70's. Ever since nutty tree-huggers started taking over it has been going downhill. The problem with Yosemite is those damn libtards! Thanks, Obama!
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Aug 22, 2016 - 05:33am PT
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Capitalism is what has killed the NPS
Followed by he criminals who visit the parks
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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Aug 22, 2016 - 05:53am PT
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Speaking of the NPS, my whole family was truly impressed with the efforts of the NPS at City of Rocks National Reserve. Not only was the service impressive (at 12 dollars a night for a nice campsite with easy advanced registration, clean bathrooms, garbage service, easily accesible water, free Wifi at the visitor's center, a well maintained trail system, etc.) the staff was friendly, courteous and helpful and the administration of the park seemed to be impeccable, maintaining a balance between giving users an unfettered and hassle-free experience while going the distance to maintain the integrity of the place.
If any of the people who want to whine about the NPS are offering a similar sevice for a similar price, let me know, we'll be happy to climb and camp in your backyard!
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Aug 22, 2016 - 08:14am PT
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More interpretive rangers than ever before. More parks. Expanding NPS.
The dismay that the Jody's feel is the death of their idiotic mindset. Dinosaurs hiding under their desks.
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c wilmot
climber
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Aug 22, 2016 - 09:20am PT
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the main issue with the NPS is the lack of funding and the inherant nepotism/corruption that comes with being in remote locations. while I loved many aspects of my time with the NPS, my memories of my time with them will always be tainted by the way they operate which is often criminal in nature
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 22, 2016 - 11:00am PT
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Look, it is simple. It is a bureaucracy like any other meaning that those
in management are only concerned about two things: expanding their personal
fiefdom and job security. If they can occasionally mesh those goals with
so-called higher minded goals that keep the tree huggers mollified then they
have accomplished their primary goals while looking good. The main trouble
is that as bureaucrats they will never stick their necks out to achieve
anything meaningful if it threatens those two sacrosanct tenets. The reason
they are 'under-funded' is because all those development projects cost so
much especially in comparison to providing interpretive programs and
preservation which don't provide the managers with, literally, concrete
monuments to their tenure.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Aug 22, 2016 - 11:04am PT
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This underfunded agency is experiencing the same thing our public school teachers deal with everyday.
Low pay to nurture our most precious resources.
BTW, you can thank the litigation fees from special interest groups like THE CENTER FOR BIOLOGICAL DIVERSITY for draining our federal agencies of needed funds.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 22, 2016 - 11:07am PT
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Speaking of the NPS, my whole family was truly impressed with the efforts of the NPS at City of Rocks National Reserve. Not only was the service impressive (at 12 dollars a night for a nice campsite with easy advanced registration, clean bathrooms, garbage service, easily accesible water, free Wifi at the visitor's center, a well maintained trail system, etc.) the staff was friendly, courteous and helpful and the administration of the park seemed to be impeccable, maintaining a balance between giving users an unfettered and hassle-free experience while going the distance to maintain the integrity of the place.
Glad for your experience, but no one should be under any illusions that the services described could NEVER be supported by that fee. So there is a huge subsidy.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 22, 2016 - 11:47am PT
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Jody, HaHaHaHa! The wife and I were headed over Kaweah Gap some years ago
late in September and ran into a backcountry ranger in her late 20's or
early 30's. We were at Hamilton Lakes and she pointed at the clouds above
and gravely intoned that we were likely to die if we proceeded with our
foolish endeavor which happened to be the same as hers. I launched
into a discourse on how it was quite apparent to this long time pilot that
the lapse rate was clearly far too low to support any meaningful vertical
development. Said discourse went completely over her pointed little head
yet she persisted with her dire warnings. It never occurred to me to ask
why she thought that she would survive but someone with my alpine resume
would not. It never rained a drop and we enjoyed a beautiful night camped
at the gap.
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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Aug 22, 2016 - 12:05pm PT
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Glad for your experience, but no one should be under any illusions that the services described could NEVER be supported by that fee. So there is a huge subsidy.
Divided up evenly among the US population, the National Park Service "subsidy" is less than 10 dollars a year per person. Have a family of four? You're contributing nearly 40 dollars a year to the NPS. And with this we got a good service for a cheap price. A service that, basically, no one else (except the government) is providing.
To kinda put this "huge" subsidy in perspective, if you divide up the cost of the 2008 Wall Street bailout evenly among the population, it comes to 2,000 dollars for every man, woman and child. Have a family of four? You spent 8,000 dollars to bail out Wall Street bankers who made a fortune bankrupting the country. And these Wall Street bankers are not providing any good camping services to dirtbag climbers at prime climbing locations for cheap prices.
I guess it all depends on your idea of a "huge" subsidy
(Edited to correct the subsidy to Wall Street bankers which was twice as big as I originally reported)
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 22, 2016 - 12:37pm PT
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If they would just stop building stuff, they'd bulldoze over less Indian ruins too. NPS is too focused on developing tourist attractions, and not focused enough on preservation. Yosemite being the prime example.
To which Yosemite do you refer? The one that, in 1970, had almost twice as many campsites in Yosemite Valley as we have now, and had campsites at Glacier Point, Smokey Jack, Harden Lake, Porcupine Creek, Tenaya Lake, Soda Springs, and probably others I've forgotten, that it closed and didn't replace? The one that removed service stations at Camp Curry, Yosemite Village, Camp 4, Chinquapin and Tuolumne Meadows? The one that removed half the parking lots in the Valley? That NPS?
Jody and Reilly hit the target. My encounters with the NPS through the '70's were uniformly wonderful, and they treated us like people they wanted to serve, rather than like annoyances. While I still find the majority of encounters with NPS personnel positive -- and all of them so on Super Topo -- I've felt an increasing number that exude a contempt for visitors.
I think part of that is inevitable as we increase greatly the NPS areas of administration, without a correponding increase in funding. That, however, has been largely a byproduct of how we've increased that sphere of administration. If Congress added new National Monuments with the support of the people - particularly those living near the affected areas - I suspect there would be more popular support for funding those added Monuments. When Presidents do so unilaterally - over the objections of the locals, and without Congressional support - don't be surprised if popular support for funding dries up.
The supporters of the unilateral expansionism have themselves to blame for the funding problems.
John
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 22, 2016 - 01:55pm PT
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Divided up evenly among the US population, the National Park Service "subsidy" is less than 10 dollars a year per person. Have a family of four? You're contributing nearly 40 dollars a year to the NPS. And with this we got a good service for a cheap price. A service that, basically, no one else (except the government) is providing.
To kinda put this "huge" subsidy in perspective, if you divide up the cost of the 2008 Wall Street bailout evenly among the population, it comes to 2,000 dollars for every man, woman and child. Have a family of four? You spent 8,000 dollars to bail out Wall Street bankers who made a fortune bankrupting the country. And these Wall Street bankers are not providing any good camping services to dirtbag climbers at prime climbing locations for cheap prices.
I guess it all depends on your idea of a "huge" subsidy
(Edited to correct the subsidy to Wall Street bankers which was twice as big as I originally reported)
You missed my point. I was not referring to the NPS budget as the huge subsidy, but the $12 campsite fee.
IN THAT CONTEXT, you would have to ask why, by your argument, the entire population should be paying money to subsidize the ENTERTAINMENT of a small group. I can think of arguments why, but those discussions should actually be had. But back to your argument, the taxation is NOT spread over every man/woman/child, it is spread only over income tax payers, and diverted from essential services.
I am much more of a fan of dispersed camping, with no/little cost. We have vast lands available for this. I also favor developed campgrounds, but they should have price tags related to their development and maintenance costs.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 22, 2016 - 01:59pm PT
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I am much more of a fan of dispersed camping, with no/little cost. We have vast lands available for this. I also favor developed campgrounds, but they should have price tags related to their development and maintenance costs.
Amen, Ken!
John
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 22, 2016 - 02:13pm PT
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I've spent time the last 20 years working on trail crews, and as a volunteer wilderness ranger. Only on USFS, though, due to logistics.
About 10 years ago, I saw a dramatic change in philosophy, particularly at the Wilderness Manager level (folks that supervise wilderness rangers). Everyone a college boy, steeped in the concepts that man is apart from nature, and nature is to be protected from us.
Perhaps the best couple of things that illustrate what that translated into:
1. the wilderness rangers on that forest don't really get out into the field until about July 1 (they spend several weeks in training). I noticed that "feeder trails" into the wilderness were not taken care of, barring a disaster of some sort, by the wilderness program. Volunteers are not constrained by when a employment contract begins, so I looked into starting a program that (weather permitting) would start clearing feeder trails as early as May, to facilitate the early travelers into the backcountry, and get a start on the summer maintenance program.
The involved Wilderness Manager looked at me as though I was speaking Japanese, and said, in effect, "why would I want to help people get into the backcountry? They mess it up!"
2. The same Manager changed the recreational permit system, such that volunteer trail workers had to obtain a wilderness permit to enter. They were reserved for us well in advance. Volunteers are generally considered employees, such as for injuries, and their activities have previously been considered agency activities. Rangers do not need permits to enter the wilderness, because they are not recreating.....and neither are volunteers.
What this was about, when discussed with him, was an attempt to reduce the number of wilderness permits available on his wilderness, without having to go through the messy public process required to change the access level.
His stated position was that Wilderness areas are better off with no human penetration, and that he was not going to facilitate recreation. His rangers were converted to a regulation enforcement squad, rather than the ranger-naturalist of my youth, who existed to help people.
I found, in going to ranger conferences, that his attitude was becoming widespread.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Aug 22, 2016 - 02:24pm PT
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Ken, that sounds pretty unpleasant, and would encourage me to live and regulate my activities apart from the people who consider man apart from nature.
But perhaps it is a reasonable response from folks managing the resources if usage is increasing and popular areas are getting trashed or beaten out. There sure are a lot of areas with no people to be found though.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Aug 22, 2016 - 02:41pm PT
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Last time I went into the wilderness backpacking and actually made the mistake of getting a permit, I had to listen to a condescending speech from some seasonal college student regarding low-impact backcountry use. I had been backpacking in that particular area twice as long as she had even been alive.
Seems like we have a holier than thou attitude. Yes, I have suffered the same attitude, but then I realize that the person is only doing a job, and following the rules of said job.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Aug 22, 2016 - 03:05pm PT
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The NPS budget is about .01 percent of the U.S. budget. They
have somewhere near an 11 to 12 billion dollar backlog in maintenance--
roads, trails, buildings, campgrounds, etc. etc. They hardly have enough
budget to hire seasonal employees anymore, say interpretive rangers or possibly cultural resource personnel. With that in mind, especially in
the year of the 100th anniversary of the NPS, parks are being loved to death, by larger and larger crowds every year.
Maybe some have had bad experiences with some staff in the parks. I've visited lots over the years and still do, and have never been treated disrespectfully or with an attitude that I didn't belong in 'their' park.
Considering the pay for most park personnel (they get paid in scenery, remember, it's not hard to see some might not be at the top of their game
all of the time.
(I'd love to pay a $10 campground fee--even with my senior pass, where I pay one half of the regular fee, I paid $17.50 for a campground at Redwood NP
last year, and had to pay extra for showers on top of that. But I will say the campgrounds there were in excellent condition and clean).
Instead of complaining about the NPS, why don't you write your congressman or senator and tell them to fund the agency fully, as they haven't for years.
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kief
Trad climber
east side
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Aug 22, 2016 - 03:28pm PT
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Ken, your post confirms what I have seen and suspected as an interested outsider. A few months ago I read through the entire draft of the latest management plan for the Sequoia/Kings Canyon designated wilderness. Early on it states that the permit system was put in place in the early 1970s due to the impact caused by the number of overnight visitors to the backcountry. It turns out though as you read on that the current number of overnight visitors is substantially lower than it was when they started requiring permits. In fact there's been a downward trend for quite awhile.
A reasonable person might suppose then that one of the management alternatives under consideration for possible adoption would be elimination of the permit system, or restricting it to areas like Whitney where there is a demonstrable need for controlling access. Oh no. Not even worth a mention. Some of the alternatives call for even lower quotas.
The reality is that once controls are in place, chances of them being dropped or loosened are basically nil. Jobs and budgets, after all, depend on them. When you get right down to it, the NPS is just another self-perpetuating bureaucracy with an attitude problem.
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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Aug 22, 2016 - 04:52pm PT
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You missed my point. I was not referring to the NPS budget as the huge subsidy, but the $12 campsite fee.
IN THAT CONTEXT, you would have to ask why, by your argument, the entire population should be paying money to subsidize the ENTERTAINMENT of a small group. I can think of arguments why, but those discussions should actually be had. But back to your argument, the taxation is NOT spread over every man/woman/child, it is spread only over income tax payers, and diverted from essential services.
I guess I did miss your point. Are you absolutely sure that the 12 dollar fee does not pay the service, or are you just blowing air? The federal budget was almost 4 trillion and the NPS "subsidy" you are so fond of talking about was was about 3 billion. That's less than one-thousandth of your federal tax bill. If you paid 20,000 in federal taxes, about 16 dollars went to the NPS. How much of that went to "subsidize" camping in City of Rocks? Maybe none? By chance if it was a few pennies of your tax bill, I'll cover you (I mean it) Are you really serious?
FYI, as I said before, we had no problem paying the fee. I don't consider this fee a "subsidy", I considered a very good sevice for a very good (reasonable) price. I hope you don't have a problem with the services that I'm willing to freely pay for?. Anyways, it's certainly much better than the "no climbing on our property" service offered by the local private property owners.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Aug 23, 2016 - 06:39am PT
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Oh, Jody, I forgot. You're the only one that uses national parks.
my bad.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Denver CO
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Aug 23, 2016 - 07:03am PT
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The NPS creates tourist attractions. I prefer the NFS and BLM. Even logging and mining don't permanently change the character of the areas, unlike road, park, and trail building. On saturday I was hiking on an unmaintained trail (the best kind) in RMNP. As an older woman descended with her trekking poles, I stepped about a foot off the trail for her. In response I got a lecture about how it was illegal to step off the trails. Little did she know, apparently, that if she'd gone another mile or so, the trail she was on would disappear into a sea of talus with no cairns, to reach a popular summit (Ypsilon). Why did she think this? Well, all the parking lots have signs warning visitors not to go off the trail. In our state and county parks, such as the flatirons, it is apparently illegal to go off the trails. What they did in the flatirons is to block off the trails that go up natural ridgelines, replacing them with flatter trails that you could drive a jeep on. There is apparently a guidebook, hard to find now, to the old ridgeline trails.
Example #2: backcountry camping in national parks normally means a ranger puts in you a campsite that is not accessible by road. It is still going to be a concentrated area with every campsite full. On NFS land, backcountry camping means anywhere you want, at least 100' from a stream or lake, and you only need to get a permit during certain months of the year. Now, the NFS has recently gotten into the tourism business, in places like Mt Evans, by charging entrance and camping fees, and so does the BLM. I think we have enough of these areas, which are really developed for harley davidsons and family outings. The population in Colorado is rapidly increasing and we have to put more priority on preservation. That's my 2 cents, feel free to disagree!
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SusanA
Sport climber
Bay Area
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Aug 23, 2016 - 07:09am PT
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I agree, but it didn't make it any less irritating. It is indicative of what seems to be an ever more prevalent attitude by some employees that they are the only ones with enough knowledge to enjoy the outdoors and everybody else is an idiot who is one step away from killing themselves if it weren't for park employees babysitting them. (See Reilly's story)
Jody, you are a police officer and you do not like getting safety lectures from know-it-alls in a uniform? lol!
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Aug 23, 2016 - 07:17am PT
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Jody, you are a police officer and you do not like getting safety lectures from know-it-alls in a uniform? lol!
Hypocrisy is Jody's middle name.
Curt
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Aug 23, 2016 - 07:27am PT
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God this is too much. Jody the police officer getting mad that he might have to follow other people's rules and be subject to their oversight and discretion.
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Aug 23, 2016 - 07:40am PT
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I find this criticism pretty amusing, AND HYPOCRITICAL CURT...coming from the most rebellious, anti-authority group of people I have ever been acquainted with, climbers.
Oh, I see. I out you for being hypocritical (which you are) so you turn around and call me hypocritical. How original. The difference is--I am not. I don't bitch about following the rules established for using public lands.
Curt
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 23, 2016 - 07:43am PT
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These stupid finger wagging supertopo clowns like curt and HDJ are a joke.
I was on EL Cap rescue once ready to lower 180 pounds of rope to a ledge 300 feet further down
when a safety officer clown comes up to me and tells me I can't rappel with the petzl stop because they've never seen one.
I've only used them for over 20 years all over the world on professional rigging jobs.
Meanwhile this dipsh!t has their climbing harness on backwards.
Of course I told em to fuk off ......
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Aug 23, 2016 - 07:51am PT
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"Never let the truth get in the way of a good story."
 Mark Twain
Curt
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Aug 23, 2016 - 07:56am PT
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Actually, the LAST thing I want is MORE employees at those parks. The "upkeep" of the parks is of low importance to me I don't need interpretative rangers, backcountry rangers, or anybody else to hold my hand while I am there. The fewer employees and more primitive the park...all the better.
I guess you won't be attending Facelift this year.
Wtf, Jody. It's not about you.
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Coach37
Social climber
Philly
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Aug 23, 2016 - 07:57am PT
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Mr. Braun, why are you so angry all the time? Don't you live in Yosemite?
I can see where Jody is coming from. I care about the upkeep, but I'd rather have less services and more primitive setting in the parks. All the theatres and interpretive stuff (except maybe in places that are all about this historic element instead of the natural, like Abe Lincoln home, or mesa verde and chaco).
A $17 campsite is way too expensive for poor people, and this should be everyone's parks, not just for rich people in RVs that don't even get out in nature just sit around a fire ring, and go to shops and stuff.
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Aug 23, 2016 - 07:58am PT
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I guess you won't be attending Facelift this year.
Wtf, Jody. It's not about you.
This point is lost on Jody, in any discussion.
Curt
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Aug 23, 2016 - 08:00am PT
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Mr. Braun, why are you so angry all the time? Don't you live in Yosemite?
Probably too many headfirst falls without a helmet.
Curt
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Coach37
Social climber
Philly
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Aug 23, 2016 - 08:05am PT
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That's not nice Curt, isn't he the longtime rescue member? Maybe its just a bad week, I'm having a not too great one so far, and the coffee is awful this morning, like drinking used motor oil. So I'm a little cranky too.
Going to the woods used to be a low cost way to have some recreation. Just gas to get there, maybe buy some worms for fishing or something. If you're making $10 an hour, a $20 campsite kind of locks you out of the place.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Aug 23, 2016 - 08:12am PT
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Aug 23, 2016 - 08:07am PT
DMT, I understand that, but I am still not sure how 10b thinks I am selfish for wanting more solitude.
Where did I say you were selfish?
Don't put words in comments I didn't make.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Aug 23, 2016 - 08:12am PT
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HDDJ, that might be a valid criticism if you knew how I did my job. However, since you don't then your criticism is erroneous. Half the laws and regulations in the PC and VC were stupid and I treated them accordingly.
So you're mad because other people are doing their job when you wouldn't?
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Aug 23, 2016 - 08:13am PT
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DMT, I understand that, but I am still not sure how 10b thinks I am selfish for wanting more solitude.
Jody doesn't get it again. Shocking.
Where did I say you were selfish?
Don't put words in comments I didn't make.
This is what Jody does--twisting what you actually say into something different that fits with his narrative. If you intend to "debate" Jody, get used to it.
Curt
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Aug 23, 2016 - 08:18am PT
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Welcome to a Jody fever dream, wherein a college kid giving the requisite low impact camping spiel to obtain a backcountry permit is a "jack booted thug."
Take to the internet! The outrage! The conceit!
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Aug 23, 2016 - 08:21am PT
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I think he's referring to the fact that the park systems are owned by we the people and we the people have more than one perspective ie 'its not about you.'
But DMT, only Jody's perspective matters. Haven't you been paying attention? :-)
Curt
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Aug 23, 2016 - 08:26am PT
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Ted Cruz!
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Aug 23, 2016 - 08:26am PT
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Jody posted Okay HDDJ, okay...maybe that was over the top. I wasn't specifically calling the college kid that, I was trying to make a point that you obviously didn't get.
No, I get it. Using discretion is important but people breaking the rules in parks are usually breaking them because they want to break them. Just because I want to sleep in Tuolumne Meadows doesn't mean that it's a good idea for the NPS to let people sleep in the Meadows.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Aug 23, 2016 - 08:27am PT
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I want people doing their jobs who can actually think and use deductive reasoning rather than robotically toeing the company line.
Did it ever occur to you that these are seasonal employees who do their job as told.
So if you didn't follow the parameters of policing, you were committing a dereliction of duty. That's kind of taking the law into your own hands.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Aug 23, 2016 - 08:57am PT
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99% of federal wilderness has no Rangers, no permits and generally no other people. Visiting the most heavily used wilderness areas in the country and getting butt hurt over crowds or Ranger interactions is pure pilot error.
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hooblie
climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
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Aug 23, 2016 - 09:17am PT
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^^^ zackly
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SusanA
Sport climber
Bay Area
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Aug 23, 2016 - 09:20am PT
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Big difference Susan and Curt, I deserve a lecture if I am caught doing something dumb in the wilderness or if I gave any sort of indication that I was clueless about how to proceed.
Well that's the irony! When you are in uniform you decide who is dumb or clueless, when someone else is in uniform you also decide who is clueless. It seems you are saying only other people can be clueless.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 23, 2016 - 12:06pm PT
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Mr. Braun, why are you so angry all the time?
I don't think Werner will defend himself, or really needs to, but I must take exception to the implied statement. Werner's feigned anger on non-climbing threads is often quite hilarious to those who understand. Ask him a climbing question, and you'll get an accurate, respectful and generous answer. When we attack each other from our high horses, however, a Werner zinger might result.
John
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Aug 23, 2016 - 12:12pm PT
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Werner is a duck smoking polititard troll.
Take him seriously at your own risk.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Aug 23, 2016 - 12:25pm PT
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Jody,
Who, do you suppose, is going to keep the people out of the wilderness? How are you going to have a wilderness experience if I can set up camp at Hamilton Lakes for a month as I did back in the 90's. The Rangers are there to interpret the law and the will of the people. You agree that people might need instruction so where is the disconnect?
Jody:
Aug 23, 2016 - 07:20am PT
Big difference Susan and Curt, I deserve a lecture if I am caught doing something dumb in the wilderness or if I gave any sort of indication that I was clueless about how to proceed.
Hating on Wilderness Rangers seems......something.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Aug 23, 2016 - 03:09pm PT
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No flip flop...I am irritated with rangers that act like I am trespassing and treat backcountry hikers as if they are complete morons.
Well Jody, some backcountry hikers are complete morons. Especially the ones who see a back country trip as something to put on a bucket list. I know someone who was a seasonal backcountry ranger. He told me many times of the kind of questions he received, and one of the things that pissed him off the most were the "backpackers" who would dump their backpacks(and trash)at the trailheads, and drive off.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Aug 23, 2016 - 03:53pm PT
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Yup, I'm young, Jody.
Only 64.
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| Messages 1 - 51 of total 51 in this topic |
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