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labrat
Trad climber
Erik O. Auburn, CA
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Jul 15, 2016 - 11:48pm PT
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No. Too difficult.
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ecdh
climber
the east
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Jul 16, 2016 - 12:09am PT
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I ponder this at times, as the 8000m safari crowd moves out from nepal/tibet.
A degree of it will succumb to a form of guiding, but not like everest as almost all will have several big peaks down.
Logistics up the baltoro are far far far from the khumbu, so to get even 10% of the everest action its a huge strategic leap. Without the teahouses and well made trail or civil aircraft the relatively easy approach is a bigger deal, not to mention the far fewer porters to carry all the sh#t.
Worth noting too that maybe the big companies that run all this may not see pakistan as very lucrative. Only 1 season and the already tiresome process of relocating guides etc would need a reboot to get significantly bigger.
K2 also doesnt have the O cult everest does. It costs more as it has to come from nepal overland and kinda runs against the idea.
And then youd need to get the guides...pakistan doesnt have the hipster scene to while away time waiting for clients, theres no mass legion of other trekkers to pad out the raw facts of bc life. Bc on the baltoro is a pretty isolated and sterile experience that would take a lot to become the high altitude networking experience the khumbu is.
The climbing itself (i tried the Cesen route, got howled off at C3 with bad planning and incoming storms) is real but doable, tho the hazards are different and higher up. Commercial fixing would be an undertaking both soulless and incredibly difficult.
Its too hard to acclimate on and the camps too small, so any schedule would need to either include a second peak (and fee, bc, etc etc) nearby or a clever way of sorting it on k2. Or as some have done, acclimate cheaply in nepal then quickly fly over....see that as you may.
But a certain type will want it and a certain face if the commercial industry will pander to them.
The guy to ask is fabrizio zangrelli, having both the experience and attitude to lay it out.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jul 16, 2016 - 06:47am PT
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There was an editorial in Alpinist a while back (after another high body count season) that opined about the same issue. That year far more climbers than before used Os then before, by far, and the sh#t hit the fan when an avalanche took out a fixed line in the Bottleneck, which created a serious problem for those lacking adequate skill/experience. From the article posted, I get the idea of individual climbers joining a group who all want to climb K2 and can leave the logistics to others, but it seems that the usual model is that such climbers have more money than experience, whereas seasoned climbers have the opposite problem.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Jul 16, 2016 - 07:34am PT
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What Fat Dad said. There is a good if disturbing documentary about that season on Netflix--watch it. A bunch of people died because they did not have the skills to actually climb the route. As with the Hillary Step, the tourons waited around for hours and hours in the Hourglass. A bunch of people died during what was arguably some of the best weather the summit area of K2 has seen in, like, forever. Spectacular, stupid, pointless carnage. Killer vacay fer sure.
BAd
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 16, 2016 - 07:35am PT
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K2 has been climbed by people without strong technical skills but it is clearly a step up from Everest and a step down in bucket list appeal. Imagine being at the water cooler in your Manhatten Law Firm having to explain why climbing the SECOND highest peak is such a big deal..
And as has been pointed out by edch, the long arduous approach is far from gentrified.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jul 16, 2016 - 07:41am PT
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That approach will become much more onerous when the Paki Taliban
gets wind of the rich Americans showing up for an adventure.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Jul 16, 2016 - 07:55am PT
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Me chillin' in Skardu with some Aussie girls, beer and good food. Oh wait, that's me wishing I was in Kathmandu, waiting for shitty mutton (if there is any left) and, inshallah, getting a flight out with within the next two weeks.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Jul 17, 2016 - 12:34am PT
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^^^^^^^^^^^^
That fee doesn't include a mandatory trip up Everest and one other 8km summit.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Jul 17, 2016 - 06:25am PT
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Anyone for a nice little sport climb?
BAd
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ecdh
climber
the east
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Jul 23, 2016 - 03:42pm PT
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I was wrong. K2 will be everest faster than we think. It depresses me to post this.
http://www.alanarnette.com/blog/2016/07/23/avalanche-perhaps-stops-summits-k2-karakorum/
Even just 6 years ago it was 25 people in a friendly BC, looking out for each other, focused, no oxygen i recall, only fixed across avalance chutes, people acclimated elsewhere so kept traffic on the peak and risk to a degree low.
I will go back, but not to this. Chinese side for me.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Jul 23, 2016 - 05:45pm PT
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Every time a guided "climber" dies in the Himmies, the bitter old trad guy in me mourns for the family, but that's about it. It's time that the Darwin Awards are broadened to include a group category. Armchair bozos who naively write $80,000 checks for the privilege of playing alpine roulette are gonna win every year.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Jul 23, 2016 - 06:15pm PT
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Armchair bozos who naively write $80,000 checks for the privilege of playing alpine roulette are gonna win every year.
Not sure what you mean by that; what is winning?
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ecdh
climber
the east
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Jul 23, 2016 - 06:33pm PT
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I blame the companies.
They have simply shipped the dodgy nepal model to pakistan lock stock barrel. Note that repirt mentions sherpas, not pakistani HAPs who fill a different role. Now top shelf sherpas suck up local jobs and risk dying on peaks they have no affiliation to. Its a twist on the whole exploitation thing thats out of left field.
Pakistan already has a dead tourism industry, now locals are displaced further with it seems zero interest from the companies.
Years ago i sat in islamabad, gilgit and skardu with local authorities who requested climbers came thru from china. Right to an immigration and customs levels the rules were changed to facilitate this, in part for security, in part to recusitate the small communities on the kkh.
To no avail.
Not A SINGLE western company or provider as far as i know has gone with this, for very aenemic reasons. Only some asian climbers take heed.
I have no qualms blaming western companies for the decay of all this. They f*#ked nepal knowingly and then shifted the exploitation model to pakistan. In cahoots with the western media (we wont mention names) its not been reported or mentioned. Rather we grinningly slap the backs of brave climbers for digging the hole deeper.
Apologies for harping on about my attempt, but in that recent time no guiding existed on k2, you joined a permit but climbed independantly above BC. The companies were few, just two maybe, and specified you needed specific experience before well beyond just 8000mers (ie independant tech climbing).
Chris Szymic nailed it by saying 'k2 and everest are not even the same sport''. Another guy simply said 'k2 is everest squared'.
I realize i may have been part of the turning point, but defend my position by saying id didnt choose the easiest route, tried it alpine style by acclimating elsewhere, didn't touch bottled O, no one carried my sh#t on the peak and used no fixed lines besides the traverse above C1 and the last part of the descent across the chute (where they f*#kin pulled out anyway). Sadly 2 from our bc are still up there.
Edit: note my planning was sh#t, so as an independant i turned around. No brown person existed to pick up my slack, there were no well stacked camps to hang around it. My cash didnt guarantee anything. I descended alone. And it cost well under $80k.
I feel old, that within my time a great peaks dignity is being pillaged by greed. Its not like everest which happened by increment, this has been intentional, unabashed and with ignorance. That it goes barely reported is a shame on a community that knows not what it is loosing.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Jul 23, 2016 - 07:21pm PT
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Not sure what you mean by that; what is winning?
Why, they're going to win the Darwin Awards of course!
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Jul 23, 2016 - 10:13pm PT
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This (guided climbs on K2) seems really surprising to me. What is their marketing motto? "come with us to K2, where you have almost no chance of summiting and an excellent chance of dying."
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Jul 24, 2016 - 06:24am PT
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Why, they're going to win the Darwin Awards of course!
HaHa!
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Jul 24, 2016 - 08:10am PT
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This (guided climbs on K2) seems really surprising to me. What is their marketing motto? "come with us to K2, where you have almost no chance of summiting and an excellent chance of dying."
I worry for the guides and sherpas as well. Seems like an excellent opportunity to get totally screwed.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Jul 19, 2017 - 05:38pm PT
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Actually some of the companies guiding on K2 this year are Sherpa owned and staffed. They made the decision to take the risks. I know some of them personally and their motivation was the challenge, not just the money, the same motivation for the numerous Sherpas who climbed Denali this year and the one non Sherpa Nepali who died up there. It's interesting to me that climbers who justify solo ascents of El Cap and wing suit flying think that others should not take risks?
Risk averse Sherpas work as guides in Europe instead, and there are dozens I know who do that.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 19, 2017 - 08:17pm PT
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BVB for the win...
...alpine roulette...
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 19, 2017 - 08:42pm PT
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such climbers have more money than experience If yet they succeed, in masses, then it appears the bar is still too low. What is needed, then, is an objective that kills a bunch of these people. I'm looking forward to the stories, myself. K2 sounds perfect.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jul 19, 2017 - 09:10pm PT
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K2 is just following in a long list of proud peaks brought low by man:
Mont Blanc, Matterhorn, Mt Whitney, Lembert Dome, etc.
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Nick Danger
Ice climber
Arvada, CO
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Jul 20, 2017 - 07:08am PT
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I think Reilly's original post about the Taliban is most prescient. There is a very real anti-American undercurrent within Pakistani society, which is growing more generally anti-western as this whole Jihadi mindset roils the Middle East and Asia Minor. How can this NOT have an ugly outcome in the fullness of time?
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Jul 20, 2017 - 07:13am PT
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K2 is fine, as is Matterhorn. Exactly how much does it effect your life if a few more people a year stand on K2's summit? Serial complainers...
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jul 20, 2017 - 07:15am PT
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How can this NOT have an ugly outcome in the fullness of time?
If we stopped destabilizing/destroying countries around the world, and stopped supporting terrorists around the world with $$$, weapons, supplies, training... That'd be a good start.
Great shots of K2 by that drone.. amazing it could fly at all at that altitude.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 20, 2017 - 07:25am PT
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Any additional income for the wonderful Balti people is fine with me. Not to worry....there are numerous peaks visible from K2 that are too technical for most K2 guides to climb, let alone guide.
None of the 8,000 meter peaks, K2 included, are among the most difficult summits in the world to reach.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jul 20, 2017 - 08:00am PT
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Not one bit.
Well, it wouldn't affect you if yer neighbor's son on a SEAL team has to go rescue some kidnapped entitled wannabe alpinists and his chopper crashes?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 20, 2017 - 08:11am PT
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The K2 region is in Baltistan which, to my mind, is a perfectly safe and wonderful area to visit.
The approach to Nanga Parbar, on the other hand, is accessible to the Sunni Tribal areas and is not safe.
When it comes to Pakistan you have to parse it out.....some areas are safe, some aren't.
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Stewart Johnson
Mountain climber
lake forest
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Jul 20, 2017 - 08:38am PT
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Swing a cat
Hit a guide
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jul 20, 2017 - 09:15am PT
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Time keep changing. Before you know it, we will have sky car type vehicles that can park you on top, you take a few photos and fly back to your hotel. Many of us will be reincarnated in other bodies by then, continuing to pursue samskaric shadow pleasures of some kind or other.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Denver CO
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Jul 20, 2017 - 02:57pm PT
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I have tons of Pakistani friends and never once have any of them blamed me for US govt policies. Although I guess if you mention "drones" they would probably think of CIA assassinations rather than adventure sports photography, lol.
I just stumble my way through dangerous areas. I traveled with some combat photographers and journalists in Colombia and realize this is what a lot of news reporters do. That would be a very cool career, foreign newspaper correspondent, but its too late for me.
I went across the Kyber Pass, Jalalabad, Kabul, to Herat. The Afghan himalayas are massive too, but always off limits because of Taliban and land mines. It would be great to explore them by video drone, but with the war going on the military might not like it. On the other hand you can bribe anyone in Afghanistan for only a few dollars, and they expect it.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 20, 2017 - 03:38pm PT
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I have climbed in Argentina during a coup, Peru when the "Shinning Path" was at it's peak, Iran under the Mullahs, and Pakistan but there are a number of areas in American cities where you won't see me after nightfall.
The Karakoram Highway is about as dangerous as riding a bike down Boulder Canyon or a motorcycle on the LA Freeway.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Jul 20, 2017 - 04:49pm PT
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Just be careful about buying what this guy is selling!
I doubt K2 will turn into much of an Everest scene. More dangerous, less "prestige" outside of core climber circles and traveling in Pakistan is a lot different than Nepal.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Jul 20, 2017 - 04:56pm PT
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It's probably too late for me to get bent out of shape about all those other humans sullying the awesomeness of my hypothetical K2 ascent, but still, I bleed for the dignity of the mountain! Yea, sure I do. :-)
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 20, 2017 - 05:29pm PT
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The dignity of the mountain is assured, the dignity of people in reference to it might be in question. K2, our name for it, is massive and far more beautiful than Everest. The Himalays are growing....the beauty there is that K2 will be even more massive when there won't be any humans left to refer to it as K2. In geologic time, that is just around the corner.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Jul 20, 2017 - 05:51pm PT
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We'll see. IMHO, the dignity of the mountain and the dignity of the humans are part of the same dignity, and our sense of those dignities says more about us than about them. I wonder if K2 knows that it's more beautiful than Everest, the way that we (in our dignity) know? IMHO, the difference is that our beliefs and comments about the mountain's dignity don't affect the mountain's behavior the way they affect humans' behavior.
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Stewart Johnson
Mountain climber
lake forest
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Jul 20, 2017 - 08:43pm PT
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Maybe
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Jul 20, 2017 - 10:34pm PT
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The local name for K2 is Chogori. it comes from the Tibetan language and Buddhism which prevailed in the area before the Muslim conquest.
Cho = God
Go = door
Ri = mountain
In English we would probably translate it as "Doorway to Heaven".
It seems to touch Heaven and it truly has been the way to the afterlife, for many who aspired to climb it.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Jul 30, 2017 - 06:42pm PT
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Interesting developments in this story.
Reknowned 65 year old New Zealand guide Russell Brice, one of the first to organize commercial tours to Everest, has decided to quit the business after retreating from K2 saying it was too dangerous, just before a group organized by Destination Dreamers from Rolwaling, Nepal, went up, summited and safely returned. Among the summiters was the first American woman to do so.
I believe this is the turning point for a new generation of Himalayan guides.
Here are the stats as posted by Dawa Gyalje Sherpa.
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1.Mr. Mingma G Sherpa- climbed in 2014 without oxygen and 2017 with oxygen. 2 times K2 summit/highest summit record.
2.Mr. Dawa Gyalje Sherpa- In 2014, his sister, Ms Dawa Yangzum Sherpa climbed K2 being first Nepalese woman and now they are the world's only brother and sister to climb K2.
3.Mr. Tsering Pemba Sherpa- His first Summit on K2. Now we are 9 K2 Summiters from Rolwaling valley, Nepal.
4. Mr. Nima Tshering Sherpa- His first K2 summit.
5. Mr. Lhakpa Nuru Sherpa-He became the first K2 Summiter from Juving-1,Nepal.
6. Mr Nima Nuru Sherpa-He is third Nepalese to Summit K2 without oxygen after Pemba Gyaljen Sherpa in 2008 and Mingma Gyalje Sherpa in 2014.
7. Mr. Fazal-only Pakistani to climb K2 twice and also without oxygen
8. Mr Zhang Liang, China climbed 13X8000m peaks including K2
9. Mr Liu Yong Zhong,China climbed 10X8000m peaks including K2
10. Ms Dong Hongjuan,China climbed 9X8000m peaks including K2
11. Ms. Vanessa O'brien from USA completed 5X8000m peaks and became first American Woman on K2.
12. Mr. John Snorri became first person from Iceland on K2 and he will be receiving Medal of Honor from his country's President. Congratulations John."
http://www.alanarnette.com/blog/2017/07/28/russell-brice-announces-end-of-guiding-career/
https://www.facebook.com/dawagyalje.sherpa?fref=nf
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 30, 2017 - 07:36pm PT
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Jan, I have no doubt that a new generation of guides is ascendant, and I have no doubt that they will be more skilled than their predecessors. The first guides in the Alps were shepherds and their descendants became skilled climbers and guides. I also know that you want a better life for sherpas and that guiding is their ticket and I think that is great. So much for the guides and may they continue to prosper.
The clients are another matter. Not to worry, their name is legion and there will be no shortage, especially when doing a guided ascent will get you a medal from your countries government. Erik Shipton started his career being guided in the Alps. He realized that his climbs were tainted and exulted when he moved on to "guideless climbs." Well, their aren't many Erik Shiptons in the world and summiting by any means to add to your bucket list has a grand future.
Fortunately, there are many peaks in the Himalaya and elsewhere that do not capitulate so easily. The hardest summits are invariably, across the globe, not the highest summits. There are 7,000 meter peaks in the Himalaya and 3,000 meter peaks in Alaska and Patagonia that repel team after team of highly skilled alpinists.
I was in a hut at the Vinson basecamp in Antarctica a number of years ago. Dick Bass, author of "The Seven Summits" was holding court. He refreshingly, when asked about his accomplishment, said, "I never said I was a climber...hell, I can't even tie a knot. I get up those things because I have great lungs from talking so much."
It's a big world and there are mountains out there to amuse everyone. Some, because of their prominence in being the highest will forever be sought for bragging rights at the water cooler in a Manhattan law firm. Others will continue to test the skill and daring of the most committed alpinists.
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Stewart Johnson
Mountain climber
lake forest
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Jul 30, 2017 - 07:54pm PT
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^^^^^^ True.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Jul 30, 2017 - 11:40pm PT
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Wise words Jim.
One of the things I also hope for is that the Sherpas will eventually, through being better trained and certified, have the confidence to say no to clients who are unprepared and incompetent, thereby saving the lives of both clients and guides.
I would be interested to know how this was accomplished in the Alps and what the turning point was.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Jul 31, 2017 - 11:20am PT
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K2 seems like a poor peak for guiding and would require careful vetting of clients.
Only experienced alpine climbers need apply.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 31, 2017 - 11:56am PT
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But that won't happen.
There will be fools, and people will die.
What craziness! Guiding K2 is playing russian roulette with extra bullets.
(And Jan, soloing El Cap is not as dangerous as doing it tied to a fool,..)
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 31, 2017 - 04:07pm PT
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The type of people you need for clients on K2 are the people who have no need for a guide.
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