Stick clips replacing leading

Actually not sure if you realized, but toproping is harder than leading. Because you swing out on overhangs. That's what I've been told, anyways.

I guess the bigger question is why anyone cares how someone else climbs if they are not altering the rock or protection?

I'd seen a stick used for clipping high first bolts ala Smith Rock, and at places with poorly located second bolts with deck potential.

It seems to me that this would be a good way to do aid climbs, no?

It seems to me that this would be a good way to do aid climbs, no?

I guess the bigger question is why anyone cares how someone else climbs if they are not altering the rock or protection?

All right, I admit it. I used one once after having not climbed for a few years and didn't
want to take a grounder.

"I guess the bigger question is why anyone cares how someone else climbs if they are not altering the rock or protection?"

climbing becoming uni-dimensionally focused on the physical aspects of climbing

You need to be looking at the average climber at the crag, not the anomalies... my suspicion is that the average climber is getting more and more risk-averse.

My bet is that while the "average" climber may be more risk averse, the substantial increase in total number of climbers means that there are, in fact, more "bold" climbers now there ever have been.

I still don't know what is the preferred stick clip brand these days.

spoken like a fossilized luddite, johntp. I'll be three beers in when you hit the chains, brah.

words are like accessories more isn't better more is just more

My bet is that while the "average" climber may be more risk averse, the substantial increase in total number of climbers means that there are, in fact, more "bold" climbers now there ever have been.

One day we got together at Big Rock, and he told me that he'd never actually led a climb.

but I still don't know what is the preferred stick clip brand these days. I think I'll get one.

"Trust me, he may never use one or only use it a couple of times, but once he's in he never gets just one of anything. If they open a sport climbing museum in twenty years they'll be coming to couchmaster for a stick clip collection. "

"However many 'bold' climbers there are, they are a vanishingly small percentage of the total demographic which is now highly risk-averse. And one only needs to see the bolt spacing at Planet Granite to know where this is all headed. If kids get used to that bolt spacing they'll be retrobolting all the sport venues thinking the early sportos were out of their minds. In general, the more risk-averse the general demographic, the more pressure there will be to retrobolt and otherwise alter the rock."

but I still don't know what is the preferred stick clip brand these days. I think I'll get one.

Yeah, after he calmed down, I tried to get him back up, like on Puppy Dog. But he was too frazzled. He told me that he was actually having premonitions of death. He departed shortly thereafter.

But this stuff isn't "climbing" per se, imho. Until you add in the mental game of performance while in risk, you're not strictly-speaking climbing.

Don't forget the optional selfie attachment, and drone launch pad, though.

The good news is that there will always be people who know retrobolting is wrong and will chop added bolts.

But, if "it's all climbing," as you say, then what principle makes retrobolting wrong?

If anything, it would be wrong for first ascentionists to NOT consider everybody who might want to do their route by whatever means. How non-inclusive of them! So, if a bolt every three feet is "climbing," and the vast majority value "fun" over "risk," then it's outrageous that any first-ascentionist would use a section of rock in the non-optimal way! How dare he/she?

Robbins' First Ascent Principle and JE noted above. Of course that's not a law

Well it is wrong IMO for a FA to not consider others who will follow the route, but that doesn't mean they need to equip it for the lowest common denominator.

The world has room for all kinds of routes.

A lot of new routes going in nowadays do have lots of bolts even on moderates. There is room and a place for hooking test pieces that get one repeat every 30 years AND bolted 5.6s that get dozens of parties every weekend including kids and first time leaders.

You can tell this site has an older demographic due to people still being against sport climbing, hand dogging, etc. Not just for themselves, but for everyone.

I would think you would understand that madbolter since you were disparaged so unfairly for doing a different type of climbing than some people considered acceptable.

Retrobolting, to my mind, guts the very essence of what climbing is, by forcing an existing route to conform to your level rather than conforming yourself to its level.

Actually they are not still falling, they are taking...falling is so old and gauche don't you know.

"Where are the snows of yesteryear? They're still falling."

Was that retro-bolting wrong? To me, it wasn't, because the route remains challenging and maintains, pretty much, the same mental tension it had when it was first climbed almost 50 years ago.

not all retrobolting

That's what some people want/enjoy/specialize in. It's not better or worse in general, it's just a different type of climbing.

"With my injured body I can't afford to fall"

Those 1st gen double cable Camalots have saved my ass more than once, Couch.

I'm not exactly a young fellow, but from reading this site and this thread, I have to wonder if half of you have ever been sport climbing at your limit or been climbing at all in the last 25 years?

Redpointing is about efficiency.

as yer still leading using those sh#t original Gen 1 Chouinard cable Camalots.

but from reading this site and this thread, I have to wonder if half of you have ever been sport climbing at your limit or been climbing at all in the last 25 years?

and gets accused of ad hominem because his logic is not understood or agreed with.

what exactly is the point that one is trying to make

You don't have to be ...threatened by a different interpretation on the vertical endeavor.

Your comment about "weighting the rope after stick clipping" is one of those disconnects, that's exactly why people clip their way up routes; in order to work inobvious moves between bolts with out having to reclimb the terrain below. This also allows a climber to try multiple sequences anywhere on the pitch, not just at the bolts.

didn't have a partner that could lead it, you wouldn't stick clip
just to climb something harder then you could lead?

Almost never that I've seen are they needed. Almost always some rock climbing is instead.

Don't underestimate stick clipping while leading...it's awkward and requires practice. I'll designate it as stick following and put it between leading and following in order of difficulty.

Has anyone invented a stick for placing cams?

...the cam pulled and a blood curdling yell accompanied his twenty plus foot whipper.

you say I think they are inferior to me

"
Yes indeed. There's always somebody inferior to us by our own estimation, and it's always so viscerally satisfying to "enjoy the show" of their inferiority.

Improving one's skills is primarily about getting better than a larger and larger set of those increasingly inferior to us, so that there are more and more "stages" upon which we can enjoy their "shows.""

mcreel,
climber Barcelona, Jul 14, 2016 - 10:12am PT

It seem to me it won't be long until we read about the first stick clip lead accidents....

I'd never heard of such a thing and thought it was brilliant.

Too painful. But I did try it.

You inferred something in Donini's story that wasn't there Mad.

F*cking sad.

As smart as you believe yourself to be, you've clearly mistaken my disdain for morons as some sort of crush on you.

You've just got a healthy record of saying stupid sh*t, and thus, I must interact with you in order to bring that fact to your attention.

You're not that special, braj.

The difficulty in sport climbing is real, and is the entire point. Everything else is artificial. The idea that you are leading something in any real sense is bogus. Someone either rapped down or aided up and placed all the protection points. Even the draws are often already in place. It's a via ferrata without cables between the anchor points.

That top rope and/or those hooks and intermediate rivets are permanent background features of the ascent, so what you are doing is exciting top-roping, or something quite a bit easier and possibly less risky than exciting top-roping if the wall overhangs a lot. You aren't replacing leading with stick clipping because you were never really leading to begin with.

I don't think you're ever ignored. Most typically, once you've made your point there is really no need for additional comment.

I don't think you're ever ignored. Most typically, once you've made your point there is really no need for additional comment :)

DMT

Leading sport climbs and top roping are completely different animals.

How you got to that moment of perfection simply doesn't matter.

Haven't climbed there yet, but some routes in Tuolumne are pretty run out too.

As rgold observed, the goal of sport climbing is to overcome technical difficulty, and eliminate all other factors from the equation.

Then, we need to define what "sport climbing" is, no?

Then, we need to define what "sport climbing" is, no?

The line between "sport climbs" and "bolted routes" is not defined.

"I can't tell you exactly what it is, but I know it when I see it."

Are hard "trad" climbs with preplaced pro legitimate leads?

I agree with rgold that the main element of sport climbing is pure technical, physical difficulty, but I don't believe the mental element has been completely eliminated as it has in top roping.

John, you know the answer. It's all about being superior.

May I ask? Suppose we suddenly had agreed upon definitions of the various forms of climbing;

would any one decide to change what they were doing?

So what is the discussion about? Really?

Well let's see....the attitudes expressed here are pretty much based on one's climbing experience. I, for one, have experienced sport climbs that challenged my mental composure as well as my technical skill......some seem to have not.

I have pretty much tried it all and found physical and mental challenges everywhere.

I would be the last person to dismiss all sport climbing as a mere athletic enterprise. There is a big difference between the closely bolted climbs in Boulder Canyon and climbs with bolts 6 to 10 meters apart that I have seen in other venues.

All climbing has some mixture of both....I have done trad routes where the protection has been mostly above my head (mini top ropeing) and I have lead sport routes where the last draw was a disconcerting distance below my foot.