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dirhk
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 30, 2016 - 11:29am PT
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Do the people that are active in the sport:
Believe they have a relatively high chance of dying and go for it anyway?
OR
Believe they can do it safer than those who have died?
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dikhed
climber
State of fugue and disbelief
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Jun 30, 2016 - 11:55am PT
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I know one thing for sure that is Roberta Mancino is super hot... oh yeah you could have asked your honest question on one of the other threads that are floating around right now.
But hey I guess it's better than politics
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snakefoot
climber
Nor Cal
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Jun 30, 2016 - 12:27pm PT
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a short post as i am very busy working...speaking for myself and some of the people i fly with...we know there is a risk of death on every jump, but try to ensure that we are skilled enough for the jump, gear is packed right and in good condition, current in our skill set and that there are not bad conditions at the exit, along the glide path or landing area that would bring demise. These evaluations are a moving target often, as conditions can change in a second from great to horrible..... and i or my close friends do not think we are better than those who have died, we just try to learn from known errors (if possible) and hope/try to prevent some random crap or mistake that will take us out.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Jun 30, 2016 - 12:59pm PT
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Snakefoot I appreciate your thoughtful posts on this subject. Thanks for your insights into this activity so many of us climbers are enamored by while often having no framework to comprehend.
Scott
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snakefoot
climber
Nor Cal
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Jun 30, 2016 - 01:04pm PT
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thanks micronut, i do not consider myself an expert by any means, but have been doing this for over 7 years and have seen a couple vids on youtube (kidding). This forum needs you to do another fantastic mullet ascent and TR!
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Jun 30, 2016 - 01:18pm PT
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Snakefoot I appreciate your thoughtful posts on this subject. Thanks for your insights into this activity so many of us climbers are enamored by while often having no framework to comprehend.
Me too, your level headed post are worth reading.
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snakefoot
climber
Nor Cal
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Jun 30, 2016 - 01:30pm PT
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thanks guyman, i try to be reasonable, though things can be challenging when the insults start flying and such. I try to set the record straight sometimes, but know that i am a limited type around here. and although i do not post climbing content anymore, i still love to climb and play in the woods like most on this forum, most of which i would gladly have a beer with or whatever the poison is, sit by the fire afterward and enjoy this incredible experience of life.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jun 30, 2016 - 05:28pm PT
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I think the Jeb Corliss, may already have succumbed? to his addiction Jeb Corliss is still alive, although he has been injured a few times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeb_Corliss
However, the experiences of one person are not particularly relevant to assessing risk for an "average" participant, whose risk level may be different.
Do the people that are active in the sport:
Believe they have a relatively high chance of dying and go for it anyway?
OR
Believe they can do it safer than those who have died? Exactly the same "questions" could be asked of climbers. Or people who drive cars.
I've always found interesting the observation that
"most people think they are better drivers than the 'average' driver".
It's more a statement about confidence than a statistical estimate.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 30, 2016 - 05:44pm PT
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Clint...it appears to me that the risk level in wingsuit flying is actually higher for "experienced" participants then for "average" ones. The urge to slice the margin of error by closer proximty flying as skill levels rise seems irresistible to some.
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Alex Baker
climber
Portland
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Jun 30, 2016 - 07:16pm PT
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Clint - I think the answer for most climbers and car drivers is that they don't think they are going to get the chop doing those activities.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 30, 2016 - 07:20pm PT
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Correct....thinking you are going to get the chop is normally reserved for sucicde bombers.
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SalNichols
Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
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Jun 30, 2016 - 07:37pm PT
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@donini, the same applies to sailplane/glider pilots. Statistically, more experienced pilots press the edges than new pilots, and with less than optimum outcomes. It isn't hubris per se, it's experience telling you that "lift" should be there, and when you've misjudged, you're usually too low to escape. IT's kind of a bitch.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jun 30, 2016 - 07:41pm PT
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There's a name for it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation
It's definitely a behavior that some participants will do.
As for whether experienced participants as a group have a higher risk than inexperienced folks, that would need a survey to really answer.
We see in the BASE fatality list that many of the people who died were experienced.
But we don't know the denominator (how many experienced vs. inexperienced jumpers and how many jumps for each).
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Jun 30, 2016 - 07:46pm PT
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questions like this are grounded in an emotionally charged and leading wording, in the vein of "when did you stop beating your wife?"
in this case, this results in part from the use of the phrase: "relatively high chance of dying"
what do those particular words objectively mean? a relatively high chance of dying compared to what? and for whom? what is relatively high? and etc.
because here are the nuts and bolts of reality that people formulating these forms of questions are often intentionally and/or unintentionally avoiding:
ie. ain't nobody getting out alive and to word questions as if wing suiters are playing with single bullet, six-shooter-like russian roulette odds [they aren't] or that the rest of us non-flying "sane" ones have relatively "miniscule" chances of dying [1.5% of non-smoking male and american 35 year olds dying in the next 10 years ain't negligible] or that everyone is facing the same risks assuming we all don't take on added external risks [we aren't] means that there is a very large grey area that is subtly [and sometimes not so subtly] being recast as far more black and white than it really is...
at the same time, this obfuscation is kind of where the whole answer to the op's question is hidden: there are never going to be black and white answers because "relatively high chance of dying" is a highly personal and situational judgement call [dependent on ones perceptions and experiences of life, death, risk, meaning, personal in/abilities and etc...] for me personally i gave up paragliding ten years ago even though i would argue [and i believe statistics bear this out] that the type of flying i was doing was far far safer than the type of skiing that i continue to do or even the driving that almost all of us do... flying, for me, just wasn't worth the risk relative to what i got from it, for me to justify to myself the potential consequences i was opening myself up to.
we're all going to die and all of this hand wringing and loaded questioning about other people's decisions is more befitting of a 1980's pmrc tipper gore or jsn nancy reagan than of climbers on a climbing board... in the words of hendrix: "I'm the one that's got to die when it's time for me to die, so let me live my life the way I want to."
while it is certainly a shame and sometimes even a "waste" when the "young" ones go, i'm far more saddened and concerned by the silent masses living lives of quiet desperation who go out with a metaphoric life long tightening noose around their neck at the by definition "mediocre" age of 78.88 years of age [for the u.s.] than i am by all of the wing suiters, alpinists, high altitude mountaineers, free soloists, psychonauts and [insert other category that in-general "society" deems unacceptable, or at least inexplicable, here] combined.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Jun 30, 2016 - 08:44pm PT
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Wow, Nahooo ! I've read that twice, I stopped & went back to what you said when the news here, was still raw, l am so glad you. Posted the above sentiments.
They give a clear understanding of your thoughtful consideration of a subject that
always holds my attention.
I'm not sure how this will go along with what you have just said ?
nah000
climber
no/w/here
Jun 28, 2016 - 10:21pm PT
if only life was so simple, that immediately after an accomplished man's death, we could make blanket black and white statements about a situation that none of us knows the intricacies of...
especially about the complex questions that partners loving spouses with spirits inexplicably intertwined with warrior paths and/or deep exploration, must both wrestle with regarding risk, children, what they all owe each other and so what they also owe themselves...
it's so much easier to start masturbatory threads on supertopo filled with not-so-subtle self-congratulation and overt condemnation than to shut the fUck up for at least a few moments...
good to know some of you gents have sorted all of this out, and know who should and who shouldn't have children, and what should and shouldn't be "risked" in lives where we all face death and have to accept the potential for the [apparently] random in every one of our lives, whether we actively pursue it and face it head on or not.
and so in all seriousness: a genuine fUck you to those of you who think this is the best time and the best manner to pass judgement on the recently deceased.
if you had any respect for the complexity of being human, any scope of vision that accepted the potential of a world that was anything more than a projection of your own experience you'd either delete this thread or at least not fall back on judgemental, hollow and self-congratulatory platitudes.
at least for a few moments...
I have great respect for both posts. knowing now what I do, & having the luxury of talking
It out , I think you are right on somethings .
It is the person's life, they get to do with it as they see fit. That Is the way it is. We here
Are free-er than most and mostly driven by a fierce sense to maintain & increase that
Sense of freedom, and since we get the one go'round ( at least in this conscious state, what is mind? )
those that make the most of it, thrive, pack more into 40 yrs than anyone just walking thru-
Draw our attention with the most passion.
In edit I took down, deleted, the simplistic 'just don't jump' comment, as it was disrespectful
I was Stating the obvious, no trying to be obnoxious but it read that way, my apologies.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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hey Gnome...
glad you found those two posts meaningful, as they were/are heartfelt and sincere... while i don't personally have children, i have friends who do and continue to live, shall we say adventurous lives, and so i've seen the complexity and thoughtfulness of their and their spouse's [often difficult] decision making processes up close enough to know that some of how it was being characterized in the other thread on this board fails to understand the physical, emotional and spiritual, very personal realities, that all of us are dealing with and most often doing our best to reconcile... whether we have children or not...
because i felt this thread's opening post was an honestly asked question, even at the same time that, as i argued, i don't believe it is an "honest" pairing of questions, this thread got a less vitriolic response... i'll also keep reading this thread, even though i've not caught up with the other thread, as i truly wish that one had been deleted.
while it's easy to forget that behind the black words on white screens there are humans typing, and equally important reading, it is unfortunate that in a situation such as this, that we can't keep cognizant of the fact that we have the capability of being a community for each other...
and while being a community doesn't mean we have to agree with or even like each other, i do think it means that we should be able to hold off on direct or indirect judgement for at least a bit after one of our community has passed.
especially when that member, based solely on his c.v. and his most recent for me very affecting tr, lived more in his forty years than a lot of the old [and young] [and mostly] men on this board will probably live if they end up getting twice as many years.
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Gunkie
Trad climber
Valles Marineris
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Had BASE jumping been around (more established) when I was out of undergrad and living as free as I ever was, I would have been involved, guaranteed. With that said, I'm glad access to BASE knowledge and gear was limited (pre-internet) because I'm pretty sure I'd be back to space dust by now.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Snakefoot, Clint, and nah000:
Thank you for your sane, reasonable, well-constructed responses.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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I'm pretty sure I'd be back to space dust by now.
Base jumpers may believe there is more than the dirt nap.
Next time around!
See, a potential prox flyer.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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It only took a month for my prediction:
And he understands all of this better that the cheerleading a-holes here at the Taco. You leg--humpers are total socipaths. He especially learned the punch line.
I've avoided sharing too much here, the ST forum can be quite abrasive and downright ignorant when it comes to wingsuit BASE. Yet I lurk and use the site without contributing much in return. So here's my adventure from last weekend. If you enjoy, let me know and I'll make an effort to do so more often, and if you don't let me know too but try to maintain some humanity in your comments. We're all climbers after all.
BASE kills Climbers.
Quit your irresponsible leg humping and go do what you love.
Call me downright ignorant again! Oh right, you can't because you're dead.
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dirhk
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 1, 2016 - 07:20am PT
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Thanks nah000 for taking the time to post that.
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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yeah but why the f u c k you? People are only entitled to your opinion? This isn't the memorial thread
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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nah000 said... and while being a community doesn't mean we have to agree with or even like each other, i do think it means that we should be able to hold off on direct or indirect judgement for at least a bit after one of our community has passed.
Thank you for putting into words, my feelings on this subject.
best post on the TACO in a long time.
thanks
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Anyone here wonder why there seem to be so few women in wingsuit base?
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snakefoot
climber
Nor Cal
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FF, not sure why you even post here. Its the ha ha i told you so attitude that shows you have plenty of room for future personal growth and hopefully you do through some process of healing, but until then, i will thoroughly enjoy your angry little self until that occurs.
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Gunkie
Trad climber
Valles Marineris
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Anyone here wonder why there seem to be so few women in wingsuit base?
But the ones that are involved are sexy as hell. Why is that?
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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The essence of danger as I see it is not the activity itself, but the personality of the individual.
If you have difficulty balancing the desire/need for an adrenaline rush with a more "boring" avoidance of risk that will kill you... well there are lots of ways this can end with the quote "but they died doing what they loved."
Kayaking. Motorcycling. Climbing. Diving. Hiking and scrambling near a cliff's edge. Paragliding. Proximity flying. Driving. Working on a scaffold. Drugs. Gangs. Soldiering. Fishing. Fire fighting. And so on....
Having more skill in any activity lowers the risk of failure through incompetence. But having a personality type that actively courts the risk aspect of the activity does not benefit from the increased skill. It just requires pursuit of more difficulty to ensure the heightened skill does not diminish the risk.
So the real culprit here is pursuit of risk. And that is one thorny and difficult to unravel problem.
For me, life would suck with no risk. And life ends with too much of it. We're all groping around to find just the right amount, and we each have a different equation for what satisfies us, makes us feel alive, and what we have to lose in our own lives and the impacts our loss would make on others. No easy answers, hard to pass judgment.
But I do think that having children is a major responsibility that factors largely into the equation. It takes strength and courage to be "boring," to stick around and be there consistently for kids. At some point there is the question of "do I have to live like a robot and reproduce and teach my kids this boring robotic life to just keep the species going?" Back to that continual search for a balance to the risk equation. We find our own balance and if we have kids we share our values for what that balance is with our kids.
Condolences to those who cross the line and can't return... Maybe from their perspective they mourn our lack of understanding and appreciation for what lies beyond the veil. I really like the book Jonathan Livingston Seagull and have to believe that many proximity fliers would strongly relate to it if they are familiar with it.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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FF: sorry for your loss[es].
donini: come on now, you know [and it would seem directly so, based on the life you have lived out] at least some of the answer to that one... :)
just as with the sex distributions found within the alpinist, soldier of fortune, or even hang gliding fields, at least a part of the answer likely lies in testosterone being one hell of a drug...
[and to give the necessary disclaimer: obviously testosterone is not the only, or even necessarily the most important, player and the underlying concept found in the question of a perfect "male" and "female" binary is a social/political construct anyway, but based on the at this point anecdotal reports of people who've lived lives both with what are considered typically female and male doses of testosterone it does appear to play at least a part of the role in the difference in the skewed statistical sex distributions found in the pursuits in question]
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Beyond the veil....likely nothing. Live life to the fullest and resign yourself to a brief future as worm food.
Monsoonal moisture voiding climbing today, a combination that feeds pessimism.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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overwatch wrote: "yeah but why the f * # k you? People are only entitled to your opinion? This isn't the memorial thread"
whoops, missed that that was likely directed at me the first time around.
the fUck you was directed at pud starting a thread by writing "The cost of base. The many children left behind pay way too much for their parent's need for this adventure. Having children is a life long responsibility. Don't want that? Don't have kids." within hours of it becoming public knowledge that somebody within our community who had children had passed while base jumping.
at the end of the day pud's welcome to his opinion and can start whatever threads he likes.
i'm also welcome to my opinion that there is a time and a place and at minimum a respectful manner for expressing a judgemental opinion, that is obviously responding in part to someone in our community that has very recently passed.
and after expressing my opinion, i have not checked back into the entirety of that thread, because while i'm happy to have discussions with people who have different opinions, as has been found in this thread, i'm not interested in having any sort of conversation with someone who has already made up their minds and has the need to post their judgemental opinion in a public place where anybody can read it, including grieving family members and friends who had only found out hours before that a contributing member of our community had passed away.
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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ok, thanks for the reply.
I doubt that the family and friends were surfing around reading multiple threads on base jumping when there was one specific memorial thread but it is possible. So your point is well taken. I just don't think anything worthy is accomplished when you start throwing around the personal insults. Especially that one...I have seen some of the most knock down drag out brutal fights happen over that simple phrase
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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^^^^
point taken...
i just went to the last funeral for a grandparent that i'll attend in this lifetime a week ago, so there's likely a bit of misdirected fallout from that, that ended up in my response to pud...
regardless, in case pud's reading this thread, my apologies for the fUck you on the thread you started.
i still think you should have gone about expressing your opinion in a more respectful way, and barring such you should have deleted your thread.
but that doesn't excuse the way i chose to respond, so my apologies for the f u portion.
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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Good man you cannot ask for more than that by the way I always enjoy and appreciate your posts
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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I have a friend who is/was self employed and never had health insurance because he was always healthy and figured he could deal with the consequences of an accident.
His family had an "intervention" and laid it out as "if you get hurt and can't afford good care we are going to chip in and take care of you, even if you don't ask us to do it or tell us not to. We don't have a choice, you are family." He went out and bought health insurance immediately.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Wing suit BASE jumping is awesome but the risks are too high for me. I love watching the footage from flights though.
I would do it I suppose on the most safe objects, just to get a BASE patch then hang it up. I've had dreams about it. It requires a total type A personality to do it safe, I think. Go through a logical progression: expert skydiver, then BASE, learn to wingsuit fly out of a plane, then progress to Earth objects. That all takes a long time in my opinion. But you have to do it that way, I think to really maximize the safety. Stick to the rules and draw a line you won't cross no matter the peer pressure or conditions. "It's better to be on the ground wishing you were in the sky, than to be in the sky wishing you were on the ground. There are no backups in BASE. You either do it right every single time or you die.
But paragliding for me fixes that desire. I love it. It has inherent risk too, same mind set required, same type A personality requirement, again stick to the rules and draw a line you won't cross no matter the peer pressure or flying conditions. "It's better to be on the ground wishing you were in the sky, than to be in the sky wishing you were on the ground."
Paragliding has back-ups and you can occasionally make a small mistake and you usually have the room, low speeds, altitude, to fix it and you have an emergency reserve as a back-up when it goes to poop. The rewards of flying are wonderful. The vistas are grand. It's like playing chess in the sky. You have to think and visualize using macro and micro meteorology to stay aloft for greater time and to go the big distances. Time to do photography and remote sensing leisurely. You can share it with family and friends! Get a tandem license and take them to the sky. Awesome.
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