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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 28, 2016 - 09:38pm PT
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The many children left behind pay way too much for their parent's need for this adventure.
Having children is a life long responsibility.
Don't want that? Don't have kids.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jun 28, 2016 - 10:02pm PT
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i can get some for $20 a rock down at circle K
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jun 28, 2016 - 10:09pm PT
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Pure old school BASE is not as responsible for fatalities as all this new wave of proximity flying is it? Maybe that's just the way it looks to me?
It's almost as though they should be separated, BASE and BASEP.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jun 28, 2016 - 10:15pm PT
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Flying off El Cap in a wingsuit - where there is lots of space and comparatively more time - seems a lot less dangerous than proximity flying, and the equally crazy desire to jump off lower and lower places.
I'm quite happy to stay roped to the cliff.....
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 28, 2016 - 10:17pm PT
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Modern mankind is dead, robotic, soulless and sterile of dead end materialism.
These street sadhus are searching to revive their life again.
Without being alive what's the use?
Instead just babbling and drooling as a stoopid politard about Trump all day seems to be all some have ......
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Jun 28, 2016 - 10:21pm PT
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if only life was so simple, that immediately after an accomplished man's death, we could make blanket black and white statements about a situation that none of us knows the intricacies of...
especially about the complex questions that partners loving spouses with spirits inexplicably intertwined with warrior paths and/or deep exploration, must both wrestle with regarding risk, children, what they all owe each other and so what they also owe themselves...
it's so much easier to start masturbatory threads on supertopo filled with not-so-subtle self-congratulation and overt condemnation than to shut the fUck up for at least a few moments...
good to know some of you gents have sorted all of this out, and know who should and who shouldn't have children, and what should and shouldn't be "risked" in lives where we all face death and have to accept the potential for the [apparently] random in every one of our lives, whether we actively pursue it and face it head on or not.
and so in all seriousness: a genuine fUck you to those of you who think this is the best time and the best manner to pass judgement on the recently deceased.
if you had any respect for the complexity of being human, any scope of vision that accepted the potential of a world that was anything more than a projection of your own experience you'd either delete this thread or at least not fall back on judgemental, hollow and self-congratulatory platitudes.
at least for a few moments...
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 28, 2016 - 10:33pm PT
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nahoo, you have your head up your azz.
The dude left two very young children without a dad.
Selfish fuking bullshite
Fuk you
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rwedgee
Ice climber
CA
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Jun 28, 2016 - 10:49pm PT
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Better form to get hit by a drunk driver...
Or Trumped by a hit & run illegal alien...
Electrocuted on a daily dog walk ??
Lost some of my "craziest" friends lately rare events
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Jun 28, 2016 - 11:14pm PT
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Sean had a kid on the way, Shane had a kid. It's the guys trying to pay some bills and make a name for themselves in Rated X Games. Not just BASE. Dan-O had a kid. I think Sarah Burke is a perfect example.
I blame the armchair cheerleaders, the sleezy sugar water salesmen and the old armchair has-beens living off of the memories of cavalier bravado.
Many telling words from the culpable complicit internuts. Their consciences are showing.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jun 29, 2016 - 12:24am PT
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good post nahOOO
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Jun 29, 2016 - 01:25am PT
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Ha! A bunch of climbers talking about how selfish base jumper are.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Jun 29, 2016 - 02:11am PT
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Nahooo, what is wrong with this place & time?
In-appropriate Snarky-ness would be ~Don't make a brat if you're gonna go Splat!
OR,
Don't spawn if there is any chance, you'll end up a smear on the lawn.
This is the right time & place for the flagging of poor parenting,
selfish acts in the name of ??
Looking for one more??
(An adrenalin buzz?)
bragging about the number of flights you've made?
What is important ?
Jump? ~ Don't Jump?
There was a choice, this was not random,
Is/was Not the same as getting the 'Chop' while Climbing.
No S Ledge Rat.
Climbing is about controlling, mitigating risk, we try to stay on the razors edge.
In control, Of what is in our control, using judgment to survive.
Not flinging our selves into the void, un-tethered,
with hopes that it works out all-right this time,
that no gust of wind, down draft or updraft or bird strike, happens .
Also heard of causes: vicious legg Cramp? Reduced depth perception ? Tapping goggles? Contact lens/Eye-Ball, blasted by wind pressure ?)
Doing it over& over, again & again
What is it they say about insanity ?
The Climbers who posted are a bunch of Good Dads.
Fathers who's sense of responsibility is commendable.
Growing up is hard to do!
getting the message to chill, some,
should come 1st, with planning for parent-hood.
Not after ten yrs of playing Dad,
Life throws up plenty of obsticals.
Along the way it is not that much to ask that someone (BOTH parents) be responsible.
In the, search for wing suit /proximity euphoria, the children's well being is being ignored .
Having a flying kook, for a parent who won't grow up to care for you, is one obstacle that is entirely the perpetrators choice.
Growing up will be much harder knowing that the one who you loved & loved you decided that another trip, jump flight whatever was more important than the three of you.
Two at 10 & 8 ! That's is pretty much unforgivable, in many people's book.
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ecdh
climber
the east
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Jun 29, 2016 - 03:46am PT
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i noticed when i became a dad the voice in my head wasnt mine, it was my daughters. sometimes reasoning wins, more often im reminded of a bigger picture where there are bigger risks to play out.
how others play to the voice in their head is up to them. some folks have better reasoning, some folks maybe dont hear it at all. each to their own.
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Gunkie
Trad climber
Valles Marineris
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Jun 29, 2016 - 05:07am PT
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Cost to whom? If a BASE jumper biffs and leaves a loving family behind, maybe there were other forces at play?
1st rule of economics: Everyone makes decisions to maximize benefits to oneself
Apparently the value of risk & enjoyment outweighed the value of the family. To each her own.
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Capt.
climber
some eastside hovel
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Jun 29, 2016 - 06:33am PT
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My father hit a deer on his motorcycle thirteen years ago now. He now has the mental capacity of a four year old and he's a very mean one at that. He's lived in an assisted living facility the entire time. Last time I was home and went to see him my mom asked him if he knew who I was. His response, "yeah, it's your little f*ckin' faggot". This is a common type response from my father. This man NEVER swore in his life previously. This facility costs my family over $9000 dollars a month and the whole incident has ruined our family financially.
Two points--First,I find it fully hypocritical and self-righteous that Mr. motorcycle rider wants to point the finger at BASE jumpers saying what they do is selfish and not fair to those with families. Second,there are actually worse fates than death. Myself and my family deal with it every day.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Jun 29, 2016 - 06:38am PT
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Cost? Can BASE jumpers get life insurance at any cost?
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Jun 29, 2016 - 06:46am PT
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Capt.
Thnx for sharing that, it needs to be made clear, especially here to us risk addicted types.
I too was speaking with a good friends motorcycle accident in mind.
I am not immune to the lure of high speed - very slim to No margin for error, activities.
high likely hood of death or worse, pursuits, should be chased when & if your life is
Not the main spring of others lives.
From 20 years old, Play as long as you want and can,
but when you and another plan a child, let up on the throttle,
Chill out, settle down, GROW dafug UP!
Bullwinkle
Boulder climber, Jun 29, 2016 - 06:48am
Chickenshit breeders. . . .
Now I'll add that I like the poster who's the excellent photographer
I hope that was the Big Dawg, being cheeky? No matter I have the #350357, etched into my super addled mind,
Better Dead Than tied to a bed!
No question ? that for Ten years he was a good dad? Seems like he missed something ?
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Bullwinkle
Boulder climber
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Jun 29, 2016 - 06:48am PT
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Chickenshit breeders. . . .
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Jun 29, 2016 - 06:49am PT
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We are not birds.
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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Jun 29, 2016 - 07:24am PT
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Over the past weekend in Boulder, the father of one of the kids in my 9 year olds karate class was hit by a drunk driver while out riding his bike in the afternoon. The drunk driver and her friend had apparently consumed 25 beers between the two, and this was her third time getting in trouble for drinking while driving. It was a hit-and-run. The father, an excellent family man by all accounts was killed. Being a dad, should he have dialed back the risk of riding a bike on a street ??
Anyone that believes they can control the risks presented in life, however mundane some of those risks may seem, is kidding themselves. Just reading that TR on jumping at the Needles, and also the newspaper report about the death of the BASE jumper makes me think this guy must have been a great dad, as well as a calculated risk-taker. I am very saddened by this loss, especially so for his family.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 29, 2016 - 07:24am PT
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Chickenshit breeders. . . .
And you're a badass Dean, behind a keyboard
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jun 29, 2016 - 07:32am PT
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Everyone makes decisions to maximize benefits to oneself
That's using the entirely unwarranted premise that everyone makes rational decisions.
If that was even remotely true this world wouldn't be the way it is.
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Gunkie
Trad climber
Valles Marineris
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Jun 29, 2016 - 07:40am PT
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1st rule of economics: Everyone makes decisions to maximize benefits to oneself
Heh, that's why economics is wrong so often. This rule is misguided.
I recommend reading Ariely's Predictably Irrational for starters. A pleasant read.
No, it still comes back to that instant where the decision is enacted. At that snapshot in time (e.g. jumping off the side of a cliff, etc.) is the moment when that action was the best choice for that person.
The corollary to the first rule of economics is: There is no such thing as true altruism. The benefit that one receives through generous behavior is in the form of 'good feelings'. Just the title of the book you referenced negates your premise.
Of course plans are formulated and then acted upon. However, the final decision to commit, that's a distinct 1st rule example.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Jun 29, 2016 - 07:53am PT
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Those who are defending BASE are wrong. It is 100% Russian roulette. Comparing to drunk driving injuries or motorcycle accidents is just pure BS. Those are accident, like falling off a roof, drowning in surf, eaten by crocs, blown up by terrorists in Istanbul- an apples to olives analogy.
BASE is all high speed and technology dependent- two variables that exponentially increase the hazard potential. A lot of climbing allows one to back off. Hard aid is kinda limited, but still you could drill a hole. Free soloing can be reversed. Alpine climbing, sometimes you bail or traverse off. BASE is it, and you have a 2 minute flight of life or death. In some respects hard white water is the same.
We have only so many days on this planet. If you introduce kids into it as a genetic donor you must put them in front of you for their survival. Economically you have to provide. Parentally, you must be there to help them with survival skills.
I still step out on the sharp end climbing dirty clods but push within my limits because I must make it back for my kids. If your choice is to continue with roulette like stunts you should get fixed and insure you don’t leave your progeny alone.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jun 29, 2016 - 08:01am PT
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The many children left behind pay way too much for their parent's need for this adventure.
Having children is a life long responsibility.
Don't want that? Don't have kids.
Before there's too much hand-wringing over the family we've got to realize the family knew what Chris did full well and accepted those risks. He made full disclosure videos of his accomplishments. His wife could have divorced him and found a more mainstream companion, but she didn't.
Just because I, or you, might not think such risks are acceptable for a father of young children does not mean what he did was 'wrong'. Believe it or not, his family will continue on after the wounds have healed a bit.
Plenty of fathers choose to go to war, choose to fly jets, choose to land on the moon, choose to die a slow death from obesity on the couch.
Honesty and making choices openly are what it's about even though they may bring pain in the short-term.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Jun 29, 2016 - 08:09am PT
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I came of age living in Olympic Valley and North Lake Tahoe. Probably the highest concentration of adventure sports athletes this side of Cham. I boated with badasses, and tagged along on some BASE stuff. Never jumped.
So, BASE jumping was no big deal, I felt like a pussy for not joining in when invited.
When Shane died, it changed my whole perspective. IMO, if you've got a kid and are rolling the dice like that, regularly upping the radness while narrowing your safety margins, something has to change. I wish it were a self realization rather than a death.
If you're single, in you're prime, and pushing the envelope with nobody to affect besides your friends and family, well, go for it I guess.
When you've got a wife and children, it's time to scale it back. It's so difficult to come to the realization that what you're doing is possibly unsustainable, but it's the right one to arrive at, again, in my opinion.
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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Jun 29, 2016 - 08:15am PT
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I still step out on the sharp end climbing dirty clods but push within my limits because I must make it back for my kids.
I wasn't comparing BASE to riding a bike on a street. I'm saying as parents, we all need to decide for ourselves the level of risk we assume, and how the consequences of those decisions effect our families. The dad on the couch would likely judge your climbing dirt clods as outrageously irresponsible. I don't.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jun 29, 2016 - 08:33am PT
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Ha! A bunch of climbers talking about how selfish base jumper are.
Actually not that many calling them selfish. One's perspective does change though. I noticed a real difference in my climbing after I had kids. But climbing allows me to do things in a more reserved fashion, so to speak. I still climb, but I don't free solo, I don't run it out far and wide, and I can back off if the weather rolls in.
"Chickenshit breeders" is the most worthless comment on the whole thread so far. Coming from a soft porn photographer no less....
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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Jun 29, 2016 - 08:37am PT
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First rule of Flight Club...don't have kids
vvvvvvvv Waaay higher
edited to reflect agreement with mr. donini
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WanderlustMD
Trad climber
New England
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Jun 29, 2016 - 08:40am PT
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The many children left behind pay way too much for their parent's need for this adventure.
You can say the same thing about climbing. Accidents happen. Yes, BASE has a higher rate of death but the driving spirit behind the sport is not that much different than climbing.
Of course, I agree with your point about the children. Absolutely!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 29, 2016 - 08:46am PT
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When talking about degee of risk base has to be differentiated from close proximity base.
There is also a HUGE risk difference in climbing between sport climbing and state of the art alpinism.
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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Jun 29, 2016 - 08:51am PT
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The comparison of proximity jumping in a squirrel suit to riding a bike showcases the level of cognitive ability and logic we're working with on the ole Taco. *Slow Clap*
You know Burch, most of your 5,000,000 posts on ST show only that you are a cynical, sarcastic, opportunistic person with the maturity level of a middle school kid. Now, you're trying to convince us that you're a serious adult in this discussion. Good luck with your evolution towards that worthy goal, especially since you are apparently a new dad, but I find your comment about cognitive ability to be laughable. If there is one person on this entire forum who is a tool, it would be you.
Speaking of cognitive ability, or more accurately reading comprehension, I said I wasn't comparing Base to riding a bike.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Jun 29, 2016 - 08:57am PT
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donini,
if your chute does not open you bounce, end of story.
close prox base or not you are packed in.
I think in alpine climbing you actually can get a little better and survive with experience.
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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Jun 29, 2016 - 09:28am PT
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Take a moment and absorb, I know I'm moving fast. You're just another bozo in a long line of folks that don't like hearing me lay out the way things are if it conflicts with their opinion.
Ha, ha, ha. Even though you obviously haven't experienced it just yet, I think you'll find that parenting is the most humbling experience of all. It's all good. Just a part of the journey, I suppose.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jun 29, 2016 - 10:40am PT
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from the article posted above
"Love is the greatest risk you can take in life." - Jennifer Lowe-Anker
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dikhed
climber
State of fugue and disbelief
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Jun 29, 2016 - 10:42am PT
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Sounds like a chick
vvvvvvvv maybe this time you will get incoriated
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Jun 29, 2016 - 11:29am PT
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Mike, I f*#ked up. When my left high hand slipped in a jam i readjusted both at same time, then kicked myself clear like a lead fall. I had no kids at that time, no wife, hell no girlfriend.
I have since soloed some and backed down more than a few times.
The proximity BASE thing is identical to aerobatic flying. My friend Tim told me a story 18 years ago of his flying buddy coming in inverted for a 50' fly over. He watched and saw a bobble in stick movement and lost control, killing the pilot instantly and leaving a wife and son at home. He said that when flying inverted you must remember always that controls are opposite and he saw the moment in time that the pilot fooked up.
...Tim was keeping the tail of the plane for the pilot son's upcoming 18th birthday, a WWI tradition he was carrying on.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Jun 29, 2016 - 12:02pm PT
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I am with Tami......
When I was 45, married with 2 young ones at home, I almost killed myself climbing... going fast trying to beat a big incomming storm... when I missed getting both strands into the device. The strand I got was the good one and the knot pulled up and stopped me from oblivion.... Kris too cause he would have been up hi in a very lonely place with out a rap line.
Did I stop climbing?
Hell no.
While working on the Stoney Point Documentary we interviewed the late Glen Dawson. We spent a long afternoon talking about many things, including death. Glen quit climbing shortly after his best friend, Jones, died in 1939 climbing in the wind rivers. The part that really cemented his decision was the fact that Jones left behind his pregnant wife.
Glen said the real tragedy was the widow and orphan.
This most recent event should cause one to pause and think about these sports we do.
One can not and should not judge how others behave faced with the consequences of our actions.
We ALL take risks, everyday.
To start up with the "irresponsible game" is quite stupid and serves no real purpose other than to hear your own voice.
After all, this is the Taco, we (well most)have all pushed over the line at some point and most of us will continue to push, because its in our nature, it's who we are.
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Heisenberg
Trad climber
RV, middle of Nowehere
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Jun 29, 2016 - 12:05pm PT
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50 posts before mine and only ONE person who has participated in jumping. Brandon.AKA Gray Ghost
Whats the cost of Free Soloing? Climbing? Horseback Riding? Race Car Driving?
Ya'all sound as silly with your comments just as someone who can see telling a blind person what it's like to be blind. You have NO IDEA what it's like to be blind if you've seen all your life.
H
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dikhed
climber
State of fugue and disbelief
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Jun 29, 2016 - 12:20pm PT
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50 posts before mine and only ONE person who has participated in jumping. Brandon.AKA Gray Ghost
Whats the cost of Free Soloing? Climbing? Horseback Riding? Race Car Driving?
Ya'all sound as silly with your comments just as someone who can see telling a blind person what it's like to be blind. You have NO IDEA what it's like to be blind if you've seen all your life.
H
Hey, Gayguyzenburg, reading comp guy, from Brandon
I came of age living in Olympic Valley and North Lake Tahoe. Probably the highest concentration of adventure sports athletes this side of Cham. I boated with badasses, and tagged along on some BASE stuff. Never jumped.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Jun 29, 2016 - 12:21pm PT
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I think you have me confused with someone else. I've never jumped, though I've been around it.
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dikhed
climber
State of fugue and disbelief
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Jun 29, 2016 - 12:30pm PT
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^^^^^^^ awwww Gayzenberg deleted
Nope not flip-flop he's probably on his way over to your house right now
As far as being a dick head I should probably take that to heart coming from you
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canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
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Jun 29, 2016 - 01:39pm PT
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Personally I don't care what sort of extreme activities someone chooses to participate in as long as I don't see a damn GoFundMe every time they screw up. If you choose to have a family I believe YOU need to make sure you have your financial responsibilities COVERED. After that, it's between you and your spouse, or maybe just you and your kiddos. Buy life insurance and do what you please. It's not my business.
I really, really don't understand adult people who think it's OK to be 4 or 5 paychecks away from family disaster.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Jun 29, 2016 - 02:18pm PT
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"The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man who lives fully is prepared to die at any time."
Mark Twain
I coached Youth Football and a High School surf team for 10 years. I was stunned by how many families are slowly dying from the inside out because both parents are slaves to demanding and lucrative career's.
Their kids of course, had everything, with the exception of what they really needed to be happy and healthy.
Define selfish...
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Jun 29, 2016 - 02:25pm PT
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I used to do some free soloing before having kids. It was a blast. Now I use a silent partner for solo climbing. It is a pain but I would never consider free soloing (well maybe the odd 5.6 or so)
Personal decision.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 29, 2016 - 02:26pm PT
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Heisenberg....the blind person analogy was a stretch. I concur that no one who has not jumped in a wingsuit can comment on what it's like to do so. That doesn't mean they can't comment on raw statistics that seem to indicate that an inordinately high number of expert close proximity jumpers have lost their lives in recent years.....apples and oranges.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jun 29, 2016 - 04:34pm PT
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I have done freefall and regular military jumping.
I have free soloed up to mid 5.10 and done lots of scary things at lower grades.
After having children my desire to do such things changed. I have no desire to proximity fly or stand in line on Everest. That's all I can say, it's personal. I don't waste energy hating on those that do it.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jun 29, 2016 - 04:40pm PT
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Well, not actually participating in it does matter. You guys are assessing the risk without understanding the factors behind the risk.
You don't understand the gear, you don't understand the technique, you don't understand how it feels, so you don't understand the risk. Not all jumps are equal, and experience allows you to assess risk every time you do it. I've climbed 1500 foot antennas, then the wind changed, and I climbed right back down. I've also done the same huge sucker 3 times in one night, packing in the dark and climbing the ladder.
I was still jumping stuff after my son was born. Then I had a kinda close call and decided to give it up. I'd never really been afraid before. Suddenly I was. I was afraid for or because of, my little boy. Some people react differently, and keep on doing it. Looking back, I wish that I had at the least kept on skydiving, but it is a really expensive hobby. I had to pay the bills, so I sold my gear and quit. At the time, I was in the top ten in the world in just numbers.
Right now, normal old BASE off of normal old objects, is pretty darn safe. Almost all of the deaths are happening to the wingsuiters, who are doing something totally different. To be a good flyer requires tons of experience. Normal, plain old BASE off of buildings and cliffs isn't that bad these days. If Hankster still posted here, he would tell you that. He has probably jumped something this week already.
In my day, it was very new, and we were figuring out the gear part as we went along. Now there are manufacturers of BASE specific canopies and containers, and it is pretty rare for an experienced jumper to die on a non-wingsuit jump. When I was into it, there were maybe 25 hard core jumpers in the whole world. Now there are thousands, and every day they are probably doing 100 or more jumps, without incident. Even the wingsuiters have thousands of flights. Some of them are just pushing it so close, though.
A guy jumped the potato bridge 200 times in 24 hours. In Malaysia, there were 8000 building jumps without a hitch. It was an invite-only affair, so it was all experienced jumpers every year. The one year that the locals organized it, there was a fatality. So experience means a lot. All 3 of the fatalities from El Cap were inexperienced jumpers. Even Jan Smith, who died on that protest jump, wasn't very experienced. She was way more of a skydiver. I had skydived with her. She had done BASE jumps, but how she died was stupid. She couldn't find her pilot chute, because it was a different rig. Even that is now standardized on all containers.
It is a lot less dangerous than Donini on Latok, or even climbing in Chamonix, where someone dies almost every day during the summer. I've done both, so trust me. Straight up rock climbing isn't that bad.
Having a kid totally changed how I perceived risk. So I toned it down a little, but still had adventures. I miss it, though. To get back into it is just insanely expensive.
Want to know what it feels like to jump El Cap?
Fully present. Wide awake. Calm. Time slows down,
You only get about 10 seconds of freefall off of El Cap with street clothes. Imagine that feeling stretching out into minutes, and then you will understand what the wingsuiters must be feeling.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jun 29, 2016 - 04:44pm PT
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Hah.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 29, 2016 - 04:58pm PT
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Now, now what's this assessing the risk on Latok without having been there....shameless, I say, shameless.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Jun 29, 2016 - 05:28pm PT
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I think many here do things that probably seem like total madness to the general public that seem pretty safe to us. If you read the comments section of an article about someone getting lost in the woods hiking many people rant about how even hiking is unacceptably risky.
I have no idea if base jumping is exponentially more dangerous than other activities. Even if it is people have to make their own decisions.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Jun 29, 2016 - 05:37pm PT
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Base 104 is an old couch potato and an irresponsible idiot.
Hey F*#kface, you don't understand statistics.
I'm going to make a point of encouraging your kid to take up proximity flying. Tell him what a big old hero you were to everyone cool.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Jun 29, 2016 - 05:51pm PT
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Assessing our own risk? We do that every day.
Base104 is not an old couch potato. He has been there, done that more than you know. Old, sort of :D
edit: flop, you live up to your moniker. Base is a friend. Been drinking? Woke up on the wrong side of the bed? Don't go attacking peoples children.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 29, 2016 - 06:23pm PT
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Base 104 is cool, I was pulling his trigger.....although he did show some inconsistent logic, don't we all.
There is a difference between knowing what a hazardous activity is really like and being able to access it's relative risk. To know is to participate to access is to look at the numbers.
I don't look at the numbers when I contemplate a new adventure in extreme alpinism, I look at my planning and preparation, but I get some comfort from the numbers based fact that alpinism is statistically safer than it was a couple of decades ago.
I suppose that close proximity base is at the point now that extreme alpinism was twenty or thirty and more years ago when the fatality rate was extremely high. It will likely follow the same path towards a more acceptable level of risk....whatever that is?
I find myself using the term extreme alpinism to differentiate it from the Supertopo definition of alpine that includes sunny rock climbs above treeline.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Jun 29, 2016 - 06:32pm PT
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About as meaningful as a fart in Newark.
Made me laugh out loud.
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Heisenberg
Trad climber
RV, middle of Nowehere
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Jun 29, 2016 - 06:34pm PT
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Most of you.... limited few are no different than the people at the bridge of el cap
" ya'll pound those spikes things in the rock there?"
" How you get the rope up there? There some kinda bolt gun like in Die hard y'all use"?
Explain how they are different from your comments? They are as clueless about climbing as this forum is about BASE.
" my cousin does some rock climbing.... he's a rappell'r and does some crazy sh#t back in mississippi"
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Jun 29, 2016 - 06:35pm PT
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Base 104 is cool, I was pulling his trigger
Jim, I'm sure he got it.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 29, 2016 - 07:31pm PT
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The idea that it is ok to bring children into this world then burden your spouse with raising them alone because you needed one more rush is selfish. - Opinion
The children you bring into this world are your responsibility. - Fact
Wether it's underwater cave diving, wingsuit flying, motorcycle roadracing or free soloing makes little difference.
You are risking your children's well being every time you choose to engage in these activities.
To argue proximity flying is as risky as roped climbing or motorcycle riding is ludicrous.
The children you are responsible for deserve to have you be there when they need you. They deserve to have someone to lean on. Someone that loves them unconditionally. Some one they know will never leave them intentionally. It is extremely important for your children to know you are there for them as they deal with all the trials of growing up.
As a parent I have reeled in many of my more dangerous activities because I am a parent.
Assessing risk as a parent is a constant.
I posted these thoughts on this separate thread in respect of the deceased.
It saddens me to think of what his family must be going through.
He looked like a good man.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Jun 29, 2016 - 07:54pm PT
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Who gives a turnpike, but that's one high toll to pay to BASE.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 29, 2016 - 08:34pm PT
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If you die doing B.A.S.E you'll come back as a bird.
Now you have devolved and have to evolve back up again.
It very rare to come to the human form which is the springboard to escape.
But most remain stupid and think it's all in all.
Only Papillon jumped off the cliff into the ocean and Based into the water to escape.
Water is life.
and life come from life.
Don't make yourselves a prisoner in your own stoopid box like those nutcase politards .....
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bixquite
Social climber
humboldt nation
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Jun 29, 2016 - 09:08pm PT
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River mouth, a plus surf, shark season, ..?
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Slabby D
Trad climber
B'ham WA
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Jun 29, 2016 - 10:16pm PT
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You can't just say that BASE jumping is more dangerous than trad climbing. That depends on the risk a person is willing to take doing either of them.
Four dead U.S. base jumpers this week. 6 MTD. From a population that's a tiny fraction of the size of trad climbers.
Seems pretty clear that proximity fliers are not able to make a reasonably accurate quantification of the risk level they are accepting.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 29, 2016 - 10:21pm PT
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I think we are missing the mark here. As Joe Blow none of us can get away with making decisions for another, Who may?
1. Family member: You are not thinking of us. You may well ruin our lives.
2. Spouse: Take a hike Butch. I am not willing to play a role in the little drama with which you are playing footsie.
3. Child: Do what you like. I don't need you.
4. Taxpayer: Don't look to me for any help.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
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Jun 29, 2016 - 10:41pm PT
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Cast the bantling on the rocks,
Suckle him with the she-wolf's teat,
Wintered with the hawk and fox,
Power and speed be hands and feet.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jun 29, 2016 - 11:04pm PT
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Heisenberg, actually most climbers on this forum know a helluva lot more about risk and BASE than your average Mississippi bridge gawker and you know it. Don't belittle our understanding of the topic.
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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Jun 30, 2016 - 05:49am PT
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One of my best friends and climbing partner for many years was an early BASE jumper, a contemporary of Carl B. He'd become animated when describing his experiences and I of course would listen in amazement to those vivid descriptions, wild escapes in Yosemite and watch his astonishing videos. It was always very entertaining and stimulating for me to imagine it all, in some ways myself and his friends cheered on his many exploits.
Unfortunately I can't ask if he thought it was worth it all. I do know however the answer of that question for his grown children. I can only imagine for him not being able to see his kids grown and the beautiful grandkids now is something he would not have traded anything in the world to miss. As for myself as entertaining and stimulating as it all was when we were young I'd trade it all in a New York minute to spend some more time with my great friend.
I don't kid myself for a second that virtually everything we do isn't without the risk exposure to objective dangers. Throw in high risk sports and you've increased the disaster odds. Deny it or not no matter how careful, how studied, how informed, how skilled, how smart, how experienced you are when venturing out the dice have been thrown.
Many of us here on ST have taken the additional "risk to love" beyond a relationship and have children. Not only that we've introduced them to these games we play! That's the rat that gnaws on my heart. We do what we do and some of us will die being who we are. Unfortunately the definitive answer as to the question of worth only comes when you've lost.
Charlie D.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Jun 30, 2016 - 06:34am PT
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A blind post .
I've not followed since the 50th post . . . [Click to View YouTube Video]
Lurkers': as I address y'all, imagining the haters,
I dreamed of combining BASE, well, the, E part, anyway;
jumping back down after climbing up, from a very young age.in the '60s.
Starting when we all met, in 1977? & then thru the early 1980s,
Andy Tibbits, Brother Alex Gloden Hair, a real pisser, . & I were
the guinie pigs, for John Bouchard's early kites. In New Hampshire.
So Hiesenberg, you do not have any right to say who has or has not experienced flight.
Wow okay then I'm sorta caught up.
The stats on the fatalities, relative to your understanding, of the nature of addiction is where I see a rift, that we, the finally more mature, are driving our combined knowledge through
like a truck. Go and jump enough and you will go splat.
As I've implied as a youth I did not weigh 100 pounds, so bikes & kites were a big part of my play ground.
At the tender age of 17 a couple of good friends, from down the block, took off for a dirt bike ride around the abandoned Quarry. A passing cop saw the cable down, and replaced it securing it to the top of the 5ft high post.
Jack & Andy. Always a pair, were gunning it side by side. The flat slightly downhill grade, was their favorite place to race.
Both died, Jack was 1/2 a second in front, hitting the cable 1st, with the front tire, creating tension in the cable decapitating Andrew. I & many others Never rode again.
Ho Great ! Finally!
I knew and was liked by Xaiver, he was a fun cat!
We spent a bunch of time together in the Ditch, in ? '86,
He I & Yabo did Serenity/Sons together, they took me up after some wankers gave me
Grief about wanting to stick clip the opening moves of that pounded out greasy start.
The wankers took my place, cut in line, so I went and led the finger crack that is just below the start some .11 thing, Xavier saw this whole crap event take place, that's when we met.
Yes. The kites we were trying only had 3chambers or "ferals"& no glide ratio to speak of.
VVVVVVV
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Jun 30, 2016 - 06:44am PT
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four 'merikans last week: http://www.blincmagazine.com/forum/wiki/BASE_Fatality_List
Still, looking at the statistics, and gathering that the sport has really bloomed since my little foray into it back in the early 90's using traditional skydiving equipment (and along with the cognoscenti BASE104's observations on how many BASE jumps take place each week), it seems that the ratio of participants/flights to number of fatalities has possibly decreased since my great friend Xaver had his double malfunction back in 1994 (fatality #31).
Has anyone done a statistical analysis?
(Gnome, I was also one of Bouchard's subbies--I believe I had one of his first 4 "Feral" paragliders imported to the USA. We had a aborted training lesson in Bishop, where the winds were too strong to fly, then my first flight was off a 2000' cliff in Baffin Island near Pangirtung. Now I am learning to fly paragliders again, the equipment is much better!!)
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Slabby D
Trad climber
B'ham WA
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Jun 30, 2016 - 09:01am PT
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I think the point is that there are some activities you simply cannot make NOT Extremely dangerous and risky.
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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Jun 30, 2016 - 09:11am PT
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like banning ever stopped anyone
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 30, 2016 - 09:14am PT
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You can't just say that BASE jumping is more dangerous than trad climbing. That depends on the risk a person is willing to take doing either of them.
I think you can. Without qualification that statement implies BASE jumping on average and trad climbing on average. You can't say A BASE jump is more dangerous than A trad climb. Because it could be a relatively safe jump vs. a relatively dangerous (e.g. X rated) climb. Or the jumper could be very experienced and the climber a noob. But with either statistical or a carefully reasoned analysis BASE jumping on average is much more dangerous than trad climbing on average.
Some people have discounted statistical analysis on previous threads on this topic, but in my opinion it's one of the primary factors I use to make decisions, even though the numbers are hard to come by and may not be entirely accurate. They will give you an idea of general risk. Like many other people I tend to think "I'm not going to make those mistakes that cause most of the accidents". But accidents do happen even to the best of us. Everyone makes mistakes and everything is not in your control. So statistics play a part of my decision making process.
It's tough with BASE because it's so unregulated that highly reliable statistics are not available, but you can still get a pretty good idea. For BASE it's roughly estimated to be 1 death per 500-1000 jumps. And yes different disciplines are inherently more risky. Statistically compare that to skydiving 1 death per 100,000 jumps. I think about it over a lifetime of doing it. I'd see myself doing 1,000 BASE jumps or about 5,000-10,000 skydives. That means there could probably be a 1 in 1, pretty good chance I'd get killed BASE jumping vs. a 1 in a thousand chance I'd get killed skydiving. BIG difference.
In Yosemite the risk of death from climbing is about 1 in 10,000 to 20,000 climber days. https://pwrcms.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/climbing_safety.htm From that link 80% of deaths and injuries are easily preventable! When I think about how many climbing days I have I realize rock climbing IS pretty risky. But still at least an order of magnitude less than BASE.
As mentioned different disciplines change that statistics. Close proximity flying in BASE and high performance landings in skydiving increase the risk significantly. X rated climbing in trad climbing or free soloing also increases the risk significantly.
If I compare statistical risk to a reasoned analysis they pretty much line up like I'd expect them to, which is no surprise.
Again the risk you are willing to take is a choice you make. But for me a statistical 1 in 1,000 risk of death is a huge red flag for an activity I'd like to do. I see a good chance of death happening. And a reasoned analysis also reveals all kinds of objective danger I can't control, which also concerns me.
Spaceflight or climbing Everest are even riskier than BASE statistically. With about a 1 in 200-400 chance of death. I'd be interested to do either, but knowing those statistics gives me serious pause. It is interesting that when an astronaut dies you don't typically hear "he was selfish to do it since he had a family".
The important discussion IMO should be to acknowledge the risk and find ways to reduce it, and how to be a better judge of your abilities. And Heisenberg is right in that that discussion is beyond the scope of climbers and experienced jumpers are the ones to be doing that. Although they can probably learn a little from climbers in some respects such as judging the weather, not slipping off exit points, general guidelines about when to turn back.
Rock climbing is more established, more mainstream, and has more professionals involved in SAR. So rock climbing is probably better setup to have these discussions and analysis regarding reducing risk than with BASE jumping.
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snakefoot
climber
Nor Cal
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Jun 30, 2016 - 09:34am PT
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many good points from this discussion and i will speak only for myself here, not addressing most of these. The cost of this activity is beyond words as it is always on my mind and that burden is the cross i bear. Most of us have always dreamed of flight from a very young age, now only possible due to the technology that took so many lives to develop as 104 has often discussed. Major injury and lost lives with resulting pain for families and friends is what comes to mind for me as the worst outcome. The latest incident was a very close friend, one of my fellow flyers (RIP JVH, we had so many plans and dreams to say the least, you are loved by so many people) and the devastation is rippling through the community right now. I do not know all the details as of yet regarding the last two incidents, and the risks these guys were taking is still debatable. I could go on with a wall of text, but these latest deaths leave me in times of serious self reflection, pain and then healing. Fly free my friends as i will continue to fly, sometimes over you when you least expect it.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Jun 30, 2016 - 10:46am PT
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Fly hi snakefoot.
I can not imagine the feeling of flying like a falcon.
The folks who BASE do.
i bet it's pretty intoxicating, much like the feeling when free solo.
100% alive
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John Duffield
Mountain climber
New York
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Jun 30, 2016 - 10:51am PT
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I've only paraglided once off a ski resort in France. It was pretty cool! But it sounds too dangerous now, I'm thinking I may yet die of old age.
Last year, I discovered Tiger Beach in the Bahamas. Seems much safer.
My photo...
and this offa the 'nep
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jun 30, 2016 - 11:41am PT
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BASE is like anything. We are always looking at risk. BASE looks a lot more risky than it is.
Trad climbing? Geez. It makes Outer Limits sound dangerous.
The thing to realize is that the risks are known beforehand. Anyone in any of these activities understands that, and as your experience goes up, you become better at evaluating risk. Also, you can start pushing it as your ability grows. With wingsuiting, it is a very fine line.
Those guys refine the lines by doing them many times. How close is too close can only be answered once, though.
There are a finite number of things that can go wrong. You do everything you can to minimize them, and then, if you think it is OK, you go do it.
It isn't just BASE. You can also get killed walking across the street. You guys don't understand parachutes, modifications to the gear based on height of the jump or type of jump, canopy choice, container choice. A whole bunch of factors.
Climbing seems risky to outsiders, but you already know the risks of a climb before you leave the ground. Most of the time, it isn't that risky, but still, people die. It is hard to explain, but so many people have died on the Nose of all things. How to do you justify climbing the Nose if you have kids? Well, you know that the Nose is actually pretty darn safe if you know what you are doing.
That is what I meant when I said that nobody here understands. I meant that you don't know anything about the gear, so you don't know the likelihood of an off heading opening, or a lineover malfunction, or yada yada. Jumpers know this, just as you can look at a topo of the Bachar-Yerian and say, "Not for me."
I will say that most of the time, it is less risky than it looks.
So you guys look at statistics. Right now the statistics don't look good for the wingsuiters. It could be super safe if they just flew out over the valley and jived around. It is the proxy flying that is killing them.
They know this. Don't you think that they would know this?
Wingsuiting is so different from BASE that it should have its own name.
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dikhed
climber
State of fugue and disbelief
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Jun 30, 2016 - 12:01pm PT
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You guys do realize that you're not actually flying right?
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AKDOG
Mountain climber
Anchorage, AK
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Jun 30, 2016 - 12:06pm PT
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Good points/post BASE104, risk is personal, knowledge is king, and in the end it is entirely impossible to mitigate all risk. You get these same conversations all the time on backcountry ski forums.
From the outside it seems that when something goes wrong in BASE jumping it is always fatal. Most other risky sports there seems to be more of a continuum of consequences to the risk. That said, I am sure there are more than a few minor ankle/knee/back injuries from successful BASE jump landings.
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snakefoot
climber
Nor Cal
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Jun 30, 2016 - 12:17pm PT
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hey dikhed, we know we are gliders.
and yes, AKDOG, many low level injuries occur for any variety of reasons you can imagine that go unreported, though i have none as we speak
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jun 30, 2016 - 12:24pm PT
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Some people will not let others determine the path that they take in life. Friends, families, even children.
That is not for me to judge.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jun 30, 2016 - 12:31pm PT
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AK, you didn't see the video of Ammon's foot broken so badly that it was looking at him? He opened 180 off and hit the cliff. Moab has a ton of exits on BLM land, totally legal. They are 500 feet or so, so you take 2 second delays, and if it isn't overhung, a wall strike can happen. We used to have 180's fairly often in the early days. Modern gear and pack jobs make it much less frequent, but you have to be ready for it on every jump where it could be an issue.
That wouldn't have happened on El Cap. On El Cap any idiot can, even with a moderate track, be 200 feet from the wall when you open.
I never saw an injury in person. I've never had one happen around me during all those years of climbing, jumping, even at the DZ, where I've seen tens of thousands of jumps. Even that summer when I was in SAR, I only went out on one search. Nothing bad happened in the valley that whole time.
I'm like a lucky charm. Take me along and nothing bad will happen. Except to me. I've broken my right foot and ankle 3 times. Once on a BASE jump at night and twice bouldering.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jun 30, 2016 - 12:42pm PT
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the Fet wrote:
... statistics play a part of my decision making process.
It's tough with BASE because it's so unregulated that highly reliable statistics are not available, but you can still get a pretty good idea. For BASE it's roughly estimated to be 1 death per 500-1000 jumps. And yes different disciplines are inherently more risky. Statistically compare that to skydiving 1 death per 100,000 jumps. I think about it over a lifetime of doing it. I'd see myself doing 1,000 BASE jumps or about 5,000-10,000 skydives. That means there could probably be a 1 in 1, pretty good chance I'd get killed BASE jumping vs. a 1 in a thousand chance I'd get killed skydiving. BIG difference. I agree that statistics can be useful, and your analysis is roughly correct.
However, doing 1000 trials with a probability of 1/1000 failure does not equal a 100% chance of failure. The math does not work that way.
(Fundamentally, we know there is a nonzero chance of surviving all 1000).
Instead, the chance of failing at least once in 1000 trials is actually equal to "One minus the chance of surviving all 1000 trials".
So the equation is Pr(at least one fail) = [1 - (1-p)^n] (if all trials are independent).
Applying this to the p and n values you gave:
.63 = Pr(BASE death for 1000 jumps with p = 1/1000 in each)
.86 = Pr(BASE death for 1000 jumps with p = 1/500 in each)
.049 = Pr(skydiving death for 5000 jumps with p = 1/100000 in each)
.095 = Pr(skydiving death for 10000 jumps with p = 1/100000 in each)
So your rough assessment was correct, assuming these values for p are good.
(The rough assessment is Pr = n*p, which is the leading term in the full equation, and is pretty close for n large and p small).
And extending these calculations to climbing:
.049 = Pr(climbing death for 1000 days with p = 1/20000 in each)
.095 = Pr(climbing death for 1000 days with p = 1/10000 in each)
[Yes, these line up with skydiving]
.15 = Pr(climbing death for 3333 days with p = 1/20000 in each)
.28 = Pr(climbing death for 3333 days with p = 1/10000 in each)
Note:
1000 days = 20 years x 50 weekends x 2 days/weekend x 1/2 of weekends climbing
3333 days = 50 years x 50 weekends x 2 days/weekend x 2/3 of weekends climbing
These values of n are probably on the high side for most climbers.
While I know these equations, if I was to use them for my personal risk assessment, I'm not sure what value of p to use.
Am I safer than the average climber?
Or have I just been luckier so far?
Am I doing riskier climbs, or less risky climbs?
In general this is called "subjective probability" estimation.
It's hard to do with limited observations on low probability events,
so we lean on the overall statistics more, if they are any good.
For the overall statistics, there is always a problem estimating the denominator of the fraction:
p = (Number of deaths)/(Number of times people did the activity at risk)
We have good counts of the numerator (Number of deaths), but the number of times is usually not as accurately measured.
Still, I don't give up and say everything is equal risk.
Use the stats we have, and try to adjust them a little for what we think is wrong with them.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 30, 2016 - 12:48pm PT
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Moose, I think we can compare objective dangers to some degree. It would be very difficult statistically because we simply don't have the data. But those are often factored into the overall risk statistics. And a reasoned analysis of the objective dangers in BASE often have more deadly consequences than trad climbing, since the most common outcome is a trad fall which can often result in injury but not death. I would say the objective dangers of BASE are more in line with free soloing than trad climbing.
I think BASE suffers from the Pit Bull syndrome where the media likes the sensationalism about a certain activity so you hear about it more, but personally to me BASE IS about as risky as it looks. And it makes perfect sense that proximity flying is MUCH more risky than a regular jump, gut feelings, statistics and reasoned analysis all agree. Just like BASE jumping is riskier than trad climbing. If someone has any experience with trad climbing and BASE jumping and they can't see that difference then they are not a good candidate for BASE jumping IMO because they are not being honest with themselves about the risk.
I have a superficial understanding of BASE from sky diving and my friends' experience with it. I have friends that have had off heading openings on BASE with cliff strikes. I don't have to be an expert to have a general idea of the risk involved and how it compares to other activities.
An anology is that riding a motorcyle on the street is riskier than driving a car on the street. Or that sport climbing has the less risk as trad climbing.
Again, choices are everyone's to make, but when I read that peolple think you can't have an opinion on something unless you are very experienced with it, or saying BASE and trad climbing carry the same risk I'm just not going to agree with that.
What's really interesting to me is pushing the envelope. That seems to be where we are seeing a lot of these wingsuit accidents.
Personally I would rather fly a wingsuit on a skydive. The sensation of flying with a risk about two orders of magnitude smaller. But I understand the appeal of close proximity and the feeling of speed, adrenaline, and accomplishment you would get from that. But to me it's just not worth the risk.
Everything has risk. But you can't lump all risk together like they are the same. Everyone can make the choice of risk vs. reward. I think a lot of what we are hearing is people saying THEY don't agree with the risk vs. reward choices other people are making.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Jun 30, 2016 - 12:55pm PT
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In any activity, a question could be asked about how the community gives acknowledgement, recognition, and praise; and if the feedback loop influences the risk assessment of (by) the risk taker.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 30, 2016 - 12:57pm PT
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Thanks Clint. I get lazy with math and it's been a LONG time since I've done any statistics. I appreciate there are guys like you, that are smarter than me, keeping me honest.
Those numbers I put in for climbing are for Yosemite only. The risk is higher than other sources of statistics I've seen for rock climbing in general. Which is interesting in itself. If valid, what makes Yosemite climbing more risky than other places? More trad vs. sport? Longer climbs? More loose rock? More people pushing their limits past where they should (something I've personally witnessed in Yosemite many times because people get a type of summit fever for a climb they've been dreaming of). I don't expect any answers, but they are interesting questions.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Jun 30, 2016 - 12:59pm PT
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Snakefoot I appreciate your thoughtful posts on this subject. Thanks for your insights into this activity so many of us climbers are enamored by while often having no framework to comprehend.
Scott
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 30, 2016 - 02:38pm PT
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Moose, I like a good debate too, I didn't take any offense to anything you wrote, as a matter of fact I can't think of anything you've ever written that was offensive, you are a great contributor to this forum.
As far as trad climbing, I'll will often stop and plug in piece (I just did this a few days ago) when running it out on even really easy terrain. I could run it out with VERY low risk of falling, but the consequence of a fall is so bad that I'll place a piece when I'm in danger of decking. That's a decision I make, but if someone wants to run it out or free solo I understand that. I also don't free solo since I've had kids.
One of the biggest aha moments I had when learning to trad climb was when I asked my mentor, how often do I place gear? Thinking the answer would be X number of feet. But he said, it depends. Think about what would happen if you were to fall at every spot. At the base of a route or over a ledge you want to place often to keep from decking, if you are on a steep wall with nothing to hit you may run it out because it would be a clean fall. Analyzing the consequences and how to avoid them for an error or objective danger is a huge part of reducing risk.
Part of proximity flying is also to open up new exits and lines of descent. Not to get a close as possible, but to do a new line and stay as far away as possible. The problem with that IMO is it relies far too much on unknown factors. I'd want a little radio controlled wingsuit jumper to send off first and test before I committed my life.
I did a search on radio control wingsuit and found this. Obviously it's just for looks, not to mimic a wingsuit flight. But it would be fun to send it off stuff just to freak people out.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Like this guy did
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Bullwinkle
Boulder climber
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Jun 30, 2016 - 02:44pm PT
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You have no clue about what you're talking about, yet crap just flows from your mouth. . .
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 30, 2016 - 02:51pm PT
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And then there's those that have nothing to contribute.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jun 30, 2016 - 04:53pm PT
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I looked for the source of the 1 in 500-1000 jumps fatality rate for BASE.
I didn't find it yet.
The largest survey was 20,850 jumps from the Kjerang Massif in Norway, 1995-2005; 9 fatalities.
p = .0004 = 1/2317.
... and 82 nonfatal accidents (0.4% of all jumps; 1 in every 254 jumps);
Most nonfatal accidents were related to ankle sprains/fracture, minor head concussion, or a bruised knee.
...
CONCLUSION: BASE jumping appears to hold a five- to eightfold increased risk of injury or death compared with that of skydiving. This was mostly before wingsuits became popular (~2003), so it is not a wingsuit fatality rate.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17495709
Similarly, at the New River Gorge Bridge Day, 1980-2012, there were about 1000 jumps per year and 3 fatalities (1983 drowning, 1987 main chute failed; too late for reserve, 2006 too-late deploy).
So p = .00009 = 3/(33*1000).
There is no cliff strike or proximity flight type risk at this location, so it's a bit different.
Bridge Day 2012 Stats
1036 jumps made in 6 hours.
12+ jumpers made five jumps each. 68+ jumpers made four jumps each.
400 jumpers showed up out of 450+ registered
10% female
Roughly 10 countries/territories and 41 US states represented (Australia, Canada, Mexico, Mongolia, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Puerto Rico, USA, Virgin Islands). 3 jumpers from WV.
Oldest jumper was 83 (Donald Cripps from Florida)
Approximately 17% of all jumpers were making their first BASE jump at Bridge Day. Was 24% at Bridge Day 2011.
Nine tandem jumps
Decent weather (58F) and excellent winds all day long with minimal train holds.
Three injuries requiring transport: Two injured wrists and one ankle. All were discharged shortly after the event and most were at the Saturday night party.
Did you know ... 71% of all Bridge Day landings are safely made on shore while 28% land in the water? The remaining 1% is reserved for unfortunate jumpers who opted for the railroad tracks, trees, etc. http://web.archive.org/web/20131022064628/http://bridgeday.info/?
I did find the 1 in 100,000 fatality rate for skydiving (secondary source):
US 2006 21 fatalities / 2,122,749 jumps = 1/101,083 jumps
Sweden 1994-2003 9 / 1,126,704 = 1 / 125,189 http://www.medicine.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/booth/Risk/sports.html
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 30, 2016 - 05:43pm PT
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Clint my source for BASE risk was this: http://www.wingsuitfly.com/risk/4572000812
It also breaks down the cause of the fatalities, e.g. cliff strike, line twist, etc.
I can't vouch for it's accuracy. I've seen different numbers from different sources, and the unregulated / underground aspects of many BASE jumps impacts the amount of usable data. But as I've said statistics are just one of the tools I would use to judge an activity and I take them with a grain of salt.
The Norway jump location is very similar to El Cap in size so I'd guess it would be similar to El Cap in terms of statistical risk. And the numbers do seem to show they are less risky than BASE jumps in general. I'd guess El Cap would show more statistical risk because it's illegal, so people jump at dawn/dusk, may rush, and try to get to specific landing zones to avoid rangers.
Not all BASE jumpers really understand the risk. Some of the people I knew who were doing it in the 90s had very little idea of the actual risk involved. They were just going for it. We simply didn't have the information available like today with the Internet. At the time I knew that I was hearing about a lot of accidents anecdotally and that was enough to give me pause.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jun 30, 2016 - 06:01pm PT
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Thanks for the link.
Unfortunately it's a secondary source, and they don't say where the "roughly estimated 1 death per 500-1000 jumps" comes from.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 30, 2016 - 06:35pm PT
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Consider this...in climbing everything happens slowly (sometimes excruciatingly so) and adjustments, even retreat, are relatively easy to do. In close proximity base everything happens very quickly and adjustments and retreat are an entirely different matter.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jun 30, 2016 - 06:40pm PT
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I found an article which said there were at least 9000 jumps from Lauterbrunnen in 2007, using a system where jumpers voluntarily call the local helicopter outfit (to avoid a jumper x helicopter collision).
However people often jump in groups for 2+ for better filming, so the 9,000 calls could represent 10,000 - 20,000+ jumps.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1103214/Staring-death-face-The-truth-BASE-jumping.html
The BASE fatality list shows 3 fatalities for Lauterbrunnen in 2007.
So p might be in the range
p = .00015 = 3/20000
p = .00033 = 3/9000
These values are apparently a bit less than Kjerag 1995-2005 (p = .0004).
However, equipment had improved by 2007,
and the Kjerag fatality rate was apparently decreasing over time.
Usually visit about 300 base jumpers Lysebotn each summer. They perform Average 2500 jumps, plus minus 500. The first years were the statistics daunting. One of around 800 jumps went wrong. Now it's done about 7,500 jumps without fatal since Australian Darcy Zoitsas died on 19 July 2005. He waited too long to drop the screen. http://www.aftenbladet.no/nyheter/lokalt/2700-vellykkede-hopp-fra-Kjerag-2420986.html (2008 article)
See my post on the next page of this thread:
p = .00008 for 2003-2015 at Kjerag.
This puts Lauterbrunnen (2007) higher, unless number of jumps is around 40,000, which is possible.
The 3 Lauterbrunnen fatalities in 2007:
1. Bert Brooks - did not track very far out from the cliff face, had an off-heading opening, then cliff strike. This was a frequent problem before wingsuits; maybe still is, as people may adjust their risk and try more difficult launch points.
2. Oleg Kudria - pilot chute malfunction or maybe not optimal technique (delay before throwing it fully).
3. Alexander Bogoroditskiy - pilot chute malfunction.
Jim is right. In climbing you control the pace, while in jumping you have to react quickly to a problem (and there is no backup).
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jun 30, 2016 - 06:56pm PT
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I've also seen 1 in 60 jumps http://www.besthealthdegrees.com/health-risks/ linking to this article: http://archive.is/WIiR9 (just the abstract)
A much different metric than per number of jumps, and the infographic secondary source also fails to mention it is a participant basis.
The article is an analysis using the BASE fatality list (106 fatalities from 1981-2006).
I don't see in the abstract what their method was for estimating the number of participants. (The denominator, which is important and difficult to estimate accurately).
I found a cited 2004 article in Norwegian which presents an estimate of 700 global active participants and 35 in Norway, in 2002.
They did not state how they came up with the 700 figure.
http://docplayer.no/5881546-Basehopping-nasjonale-selvbilder-sublime-opplevelser.html
Given 12 fatalities listed for 2002 in the BASE fatality list, this yields a 1 in 58 participants figure.
Note: 4 fatalities in 2001 and 8 in 2003, so 2002 might not have been a 'typical' year.
Here are 2 other articles with smallish N based on surveys of surviving BASE jumpers.
1. Clin J Sport Med. 2012 May
The epidemiology of severe and catastrophic injuries in BASE jumping.
Mei-Dan O, Carmont MR, Monasterio E.
SETTING: BASE jumping group meetings from 2006 to 2010.
PARTICIPANTS: Heterogenic group of 102 International BASE jumpers.
RESULTS: Responses from 68 subjects were available for analysis. The median number of jumps was estimated at 286 per respondent. The median time respondents had participated in BASE jumping was 5.8 years. There were 39 reported severe injuries sustained by 29 different jumpers. Nineteen thousand four hundred ninety-seven jumps were reported, resulting in 2 severe injuries per 1000 jumps (0.2% severe injury rate) or 2.6 severe injuries per 1000 jumping days. Forty-nine respondents (72%) had witnessed the death or serious injury of other participants in the sport. Twenty-four accidents (61%) involved the lower limbs, 8 (20%) the back/spine, 7 (18%) the chest wall, and 5 (13%) were a head injury. The mean Abbreviated Injury Score was 3.2 (range, 2-5). Fifteen (52%) of the 29 injured jumpers required 20 acute surgical interventions, which were mostly orthopedic related. There was a significant correlation between number of jumps made and injuries sustained (P < 0.05).
CONCLUSIONS:
BASE jumpers have an average of 1 severe injury for every 500 jumps. Most active BASE jumpers have witnessed death or severe injury of a participant and have experienced a "close call" incident.
Maybe this is where the 1 in 500 figure came from??
If so, it's wrong, as this is a rate of injuries, not fatalities.
The N in this study is fairly small (N=68), and it is of surviving jumpers, so it doesn't shed much light on fatality rates.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22450590
2. N Z Med J. 2008 Jul 4;121(1277):70-5.
Risk and severity of injury in a population of BASE jumpers.
Monasterio E, Mei-Dan O
METHODS:
To determine the frequency and characteristics of BASE jumping accidents, a cross-sectional survey of experienced BASE jumpers was completed.
RESULTS:
35 BASE jumpers enrolled in the study. Findings revealed that there were approximately 9914 jumps made and the estimated rate of injury was 0.4%. 39 accidents involving 21 (60%) BASE jumpers were found. 28 accidents (72%) predominantly involved the lower limbs, 12 (31%) involved the back/spine, 7 (18%) the upper limbs, and 1 (3%) was a head injury.
CONCLUSION:
BASE jumping is associated with a high risk of serious injury and appears to be significantly more dangerous than skydiving. Earlier and smaller survey by the same authors. Mei-Dan is a BASE jumper.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18677332
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jun 30, 2016 - 07:10pm PT
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So, we are back to statistics.
Which is very simplistic. Maybe so, but it's the only accurate way to estimate the probabilities that enter risk calculations.
The main difficulty is finding surveys with largish N that measure something close to the activity of interest.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 30, 2016 - 07:15pm PT
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Not entirely....statistics can be simplistic to a fault. If you look at the stats for fatalities in climbing are you to assume that extreme alpinism and sport climbing are equivalent regarding risk?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jun 30, 2016 - 07:25pm PT
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Moose wrote:
Certain sports attract certain personalities. That's why I would really like to understand the objective dangers of those activities.
Statistics (if surveyed on the right population) will usually tell you roughly the average probability of an outcome (death, injury, etc.), across all participants.
Sometimes it can stratify by different groups in the study.
For example, male vs. female and bridge vs. cliff.
It can't tell you what the probability of death is for a particular personality type is, unless that has been classified as part of the study.
By objective danger, do you mean different ways to die?
Or do you mean something quantitative, like probability of each way to die?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jun 30, 2016 - 07:27pm PT
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Not entirely....statistics can be simplistic to a fault. If you look at the stats for fatalities in climbing are you to assume that extreme alpinism and sport climbing are equivalent regarding risk? I think you are saying that statistics can be misused, i.e. used incorrectly to draw conclusions for a very different group of participants.
I agree.
I'm talking about statistics used correctly, or at least with some caution.
I believe the surveys I mentioned for Kjerag 1995-2005 and for US Skydiving in 2006 are fairly accurate for what they cover.
They are limited in their application to BASE at different locations and different styles (such as proximity flying).
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 30, 2016 - 07:32pm PT
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I agree Clint....we live in a world where statistics are use incorrectly or partially to prove a point. Also, some statistics are derived from incorrect assumptions.
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couchmaster
climber
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Jun 30, 2016 - 07:59pm PT
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We all pays our money, we all takes our chances. I chose to reduce risk when I had the first kid. Flip Flop and many of you feel as I did. Some do some don't. For me, I set a goal that I would live till my youngest was 5. Laugh if you will, but my dad died when I was 18 months old and it's no small thing. So I figured - 5 and if I check out, c'est la vie. I only tried to do my best and think things though in advance. After my evaluation I gave up mountains and the snow and ice thing. This choice was made easier as I was then guiding as a fill in till some of Americas best climbers could get back from the Himalayas, after having kicked some ass and claimed some fame or whatever, get back and run their guiding service. 2 of the 3 owners died on the trip. (avy) Real good guys. Great climbers. 1986 I think.
This discourse on ST if Chris did the right thing or not is interesting but misguided I feel. He made his choice. His wife was fine with it. Who are we to tell him it was wrong? For some of us, it would have been horrendously stupid. But it was not our choice to make. It was his. We all know the odds are not forever in your favor for some of our outdoor recreation.
I passed that 5 year mark a bit ago. 3 weeks ago I was with my wife, daughter, brothers, mom and lots of other friends to watch my youngest son graduate from university. He's moved to another state now and I miss him. But I did my job as I defined it, and to me, that was important. It was important to him as well it turned out. We'll be heading to Toulemne next month, doing some easy father - son routes. God forbid that one of us takes a hit or a bad fall as I suspect that there will be 10 pages of argumentative discourse on Supertopo about what idiots we were. But we already know we're idiots, and we don't give a sh#t about your views. You can take what your life is and make it work for you: we have done that for us. Chris did the same. We can salute him for the man he was, and grieve for the child that didn't get to really know him and grow up with a dad: or the wife that will have some empty excruciatingly painful holes in her life. But we cannot make that choice or change his choice, as painful as it is. We just need to shut the f*#k up on his choices and worry about what each of us is doing for ourselves. This is freedom. Yes, it can hurt and hurt bad. We all pays our money, we all takes our chances. None of us gets out alive.
That we are missing another good man will be no less painful for my words. We all wish it could be otherwise. My very best to you all, and to Chris's family and friends.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jun 30, 2016 - 08:35pm PT
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Moose,
I agree - some people will "self-select" into riskier activities, because they enjoy the thrills more.
And there is often a mix of high and low risk people in an activity.
To evaluate your risk if participating in BASE jumping (as a lower risk person),
a statistical survey would need to classify current participants in terms of their risk level, by some reasonable measure.
It might be in the type of object the person jumps from,
or the style of gear they use (wingsuit vs. normal).
Or it might be in their participation in other sports with elevated risk.
Then the survey tracks both the high and low risk people in terms of number of jumps, and counts fatalities, for the type of jump location you have in mind.
It might take awhile (years) to get fatalities in both groups, and even longer to see if there is a significant difference in their fatality rate.
Then you would use the fatality rate for the low risk people.
This is how it would work ideally.
In practice, it would take a lot of work and time to do such a study,
and no doubt many jumpers would refuse to participate, which could bias the results.
If you want to decide using already available statistics,
you could use the rate across all risk groups as an upper bound on the rate for the low risk group.
For example, if you want to jump at Kjerag, the overall rate (1995-2005) is .0004 , or .00008 (2003-2015 - see below),
so the low risk rate was not higher than .0004 or .00008 .
If that is acceptable to you, you could go ahead.
Of course, an important question would be
"As a self-identified low risk person, how would your decisions on the jump(s) differ from those of a high risk person?"
Here's a 2012 article which explores how (N=68) BASE jumpers differ from the general population in some personality characteristics:
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/254288190_Personality_Characteristics_of_BASE_Jumpers
They are significantly higher in "Sensation Seeking" or "Novelty Seeking",
and lower in "Harm Avoidance".
Seems to line up with your expectations.
I found a more recent version of the raw data for Kjerag - through 2015:
http://stavangerbase.com/about-us/statistics/
It does suggest the fatality rate per jump is dropping:
p = .00023 (1994 - 2015)
p = .00060 (1994 - 2002) pre-wingsuit (first wingsuit fatalities were in late 2002)
p = .00008 (2003 - 2015) wingsuit era
It also shows the jump numbers rounded to the nearest 50 through 2010,
which makes me wonder how those were constructed.
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Daphne
Trad climber
Northern California
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Jun 30, 2016 - 11:12pm PT
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^^^ WOW, what a great video to illustrate this discussion.
"Fear is a super important thing and without fear you will die."
Jeb Corliss
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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I don't think it is appropriate to judge people's intentions post mortem.
But I do think that in retrospect I was once engaged in very risky behavior and came very close the my "numbers up" many, many times.
My belief after these experiences were that my demise would have been mine and mine alone, my right, and that it was really only me that was being affected.
A succession of friends dying told me this was not true, and I began a multi-year process with clear intent.
One of the hardest and most challenging things I have ever had to do in my life so far was to transition from a lifestyle filled with calculated risk and adrenaline into a lifestyle that had a higher probability of survival. It was hell, filled with manic depressive times, flitting back and forth from the occasional risk to self-loathing about not getting out there and doing cool stuff.
Once I had kids though, there was no question for me--the choice was the right one ( for me). I am glad and fortunate that kids came after I had already gone through the agonizing withdrawal from adrenaline.
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Heisenberg
Trad climber
RV, middle of Nowehere
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Jim. I have the utmost respect for you and the passionate life you've lived.
We've sat around campfires the last 2 years talking about this. Also watched you climb.
IMHO.... You take an increased/unnecessary one by only placing 1 or 2 cams during a 120 foot pitch.
Your argument was that it was "safer" But essentially you're increasing the risk of death 10 fold. You have taken a sport(climbing) with some risk (like base) and now turned it into (free soloing)WS Proxy BASE. One cam 60 feet down on 120 feet is not going to stop you first, sadly the dirt will.
Did you ever look at statistics before you did an alpine climb? I'm going to say NO.
Risk Management / Assessment from one sport to another are very different. Certainly some correlate but in reality it takes something much different to step up to and off the edge.
I have a ton of respect for you Jim. You have a voice of reason and a curiosity
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WyoRockMan
climber
Grizzlyville, WY
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If you look at the stats for fatalities in climbing are you to assume that extreme alpinism and sport climbing are equivalent regarding risk?
Life insurance companies seem to make that assumption.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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How about the matrix of skill, strength, and risk?
Activities require different ratios of skills and strength. Risk is tied to the possible failure to adequately use either or both.
Raw strength may limit entry into some activities more than others.
Skill, for other activities may be the primary tool that drives the show.
A high tolerance for risk can reduce the apparent need for developing either skill or strength as an individual progresses in an activity.
A low tolerance for risk can retard the development of strength and skills.
Moving balance depending on individuals, activities, and external factors...
... including social acceptance and pressures.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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I looked for some statistics on free soloing but couldn't find anything.
I would GUESS it's roughly the same order of magnitude as risky as BASE jumping.
Of course even if we had the numbers that's just statistics, they are very different activities with different objective and subjective dangers. But it's interesting to compare and I think good to know. e.g. someone might be very comfortable with BASE but think free soloing is crazy, but when they realize the risk is similar it may give them a more objective way to look at their preferred activity.
I learned that SCUBA carries more risk than I thought it did and have decided to be more careful and refresh some of the self rescue techniques I haven't practiced in over a decade.
The statistics for skiing seem to show it's pretty safe, but I often ski in avalanche conditions (fresh snow, 35-50 degree slopes) so I know my risk is MUCH higher than an average skier and act accordingly.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 1, 2016 - 02:17pm PT
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This thread was started simply to get people thinking about the responsibilities of parenthood.
The children don't always have a voice in the decisions we make. Good decisions are good for everyone.
Raising children is harder than any sport, and more rewarding in many ways.
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dikhed
climber
State of fugue and disbelief
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I wish more people did a better job of raising the little carbon copies of themselves
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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The original post was this:
The many children left behind pay way too much for their parent's need for this adventure.
Having children is a life long responsibility.
Don't want that? Don't have kids.
I'm sorry for steering this conversation towards risk. Personally, I would put BASE in the same conversation as generic soloing. Not as dangerous as doing hard mixed routes in Chamonix. That was the most dangerous thing that I've done.
OK. Look at Alex Lowe. He had three kids and died in an avalanche in the Himalaya.
John Bachar died soloing. He had a young son.
Allison Hargreaves died along with my friend Rob Slater on K2. She had two kids. After her death, the vermin swarmed out of the floorboards to judge her.
Hell, George Mallory died on Everest. He had kids. I could play this game all day long.
Are you going to judge them as well? How about we make a list of everyone who has kids and still does risky things.
If there is anything that I am trying to say here, it is that some people walk a path that others wouldn't even consider. That is their path, and nothing will stop them. Not spouses, not children, nothing.
I celebrate those people. Their focus on their path was absolute. It is easy to be a coward who judges others from the comfort of their chair.
Teddy Roosevelt used to talk about this. How others shower judgement and criticism at those who have chosen to live in the arena. Timid souls, I think he called them.
This is what disappoints me so much about some of you people. You like to judge others for the path that they chose to follow. I gave up BASE shortly after my son was born, but I know plenty of others who didn't under the same circumstance. I would never judge them or their decision. It wouldn't even occur to me.
We only live once, and if you live true to your path, then good for you, whatever it may be. It isn't my place to judge.
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jsrj98
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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BASE,
Thanks for the thoughtful post above. I have a question, and don't read anything into it-- but I'd be curious to know your thoughts.
Do you think the spouse and kids have a right to judge?
When I started climbing again after a long hiatus, and with two kids approaching college, I made sure my life insurance would cover me if I died in a climbing accident. Now that my youngest has just graduated, is the pressure off? My wife tells me she's worried that I'd leave her alone if something happened to me, but knows climbing makes me happy. I'm insanely safety conscious, but we all know how easy it is to make a simple mistake or fall prey to bad weather or maybe just plain bad luck.
I don't think my wife or kids would harshly judge me (thinking I died doing what I loved), but I accept (and have to live with) the fact that they might.
John
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WBraun
climber
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We only live once
Biggest stupidest mistake of gross materialism is the illusion that "We only live once".
"Life" never ever dies ......
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 1, 2016 - 05:12pm PT
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If there is anything that I am trying to say here, it is that some people walk a path that others wouldn't even consider. That is their path, and nothing will stop them. Not spouses, not children, nothing.
So if I were to say you are describing very selfish people in this statement am I judging? or merely stating the obvious?
The fact that you consistently state that others don't "understand" a BASE jumper's rigging, technique, feeling, etc... and therefore cannot look at it and determine it to be a serious risk is simply your ego talking.
You ain't that special. Because you choose to jump off objects with a parachute doesn't make you courageous or a hero. It's just what you choose to do.
Entering corners at 140mph on two wheels is how I got my kicks for a long time. Whether you choose to do this or not, it doesn't make you more or less courageous.
It sounds like we both gave up some passions for the sake of our children. There is nothing cowardly about that.
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yeahman
Mountain climber
Montana
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Everybody talks about kids who lose parents. How come nobody ever talks about the parents who lose a kid to extreme sports? As a parent, I personally think it could be much more difficult to lose a kid to climbing (or anything else), than to be a kid who loses a parent. Which means that all those years I was climbing like crazy before I had kids and I thought I had no obligations, I was actually wrong. My parents must have been worried sick, but I was totally oblivious to that. Or to how it would have affected them if I died.
Brings to mind the David Roberts book where he has to tell the parents of his climbing partner who fell off whatever Alaskan mountain they were climbing, and the grief he describes as being so overwhelming it shocked him. Or Krakauer's "Into the Wild" where he interviews the parents of the kid who died and describes the deep grief that never goes away when a parent loses a child.
A child losing a parent will leave a void for sure, but the chance exists for somebody to step in and fill that void (ala Conrad Anker). But I think a parent losing a child brings the kind of grief that people never recover from. Nobody can step in to fill that void. Just something to think about.
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dikhed
climber
State of fugue and disbelief
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start a thread
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jstan
climber
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jsrj98: I don't think my wife or kids would harshly judge me (thinking I died doing what I loved), but I accept (and have to live with) the fact that they might.
Were I ever faced with this dilemma I would find something else I loved just as much. Many different things to do out there.
Being a male I find being solitary quite agreeable. But over the years I have learned women are different. Often they love having someone around just the same way others love climbing. It seems a conflict between two fundamentals.
A big problem. Negotiation is the only resolution apparent to me.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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OK. I'm tired of listening to Pud. He just doesn't get it.
What about Neil Armstrong? He had kids when he went to the moon. Most of the Apollo astronauts did.
The Apollo 1 crew died in a fire. All three of them had children.
So did the Apollo 13 crew, except for Swigert, who was one of the few bachelors in the astronaut program.
Talk about doing something risky.
What about soldiers who go to war? Are they irresponsible? They are all volunteers, and know the risk that they take. Why don't you get on a military bulletin board and say what you say here? You would get your ass kicked so fast that you couldn't run away even if you grew wings. What you keep saying makes me feel a little like that.
This is a climber's site, not a BASE site. So there is a very LOW BASE IQ here. I see it in many of the posts. It isn't your fault. You just haven't been around it.
Anywhere you look, where humans are taking on risky stuff, fathers will die.
Again. They were all following their path, and that path, for many, came above anything and anyone else. You guys who point fingers don't have it.
I look back to where I stepped off of that path and am filled with both regret and happiness. I deeply regret stopping something that was very meaningful to me, to be a dad, something that made me very happy. But man, I really missed it.
These people whose path is risky, and still walk it despite anything or anyone else, are driven people. They are the ones who push boundaries. They know the risk. Judging them is pure bullsh#t.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 2, 2016 - 11:35am PT
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So now you are comparing BASE jumpers to Astronauts and our military vets?
They aren't doing their jobs only for themselves.
Dude, check your ego.
Edit:
BASE104:
You would get your ass kicked so fast that you couldn't run away even if you grew wings. What you keep saying makes me feel a little like that.
I don't take threats online or in person lightly.
If you think you have the balls to back up this threat, contact me.
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dikhed
climber
State of fugue and disbelief
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ha! Missed that internet tough guy post, which Super Topo badass said that?
They must have deleted it so obviously no strength in their convictions.
And it is so clever too if you had wings you wouldn't be running you would be flying like all these base guys think they're doing
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Michael Collins, who stayed in the CSM when Armstrong and Aldrin walked on the moon, was given the opportunity to command a later mission (the commander gets to walk on the moon), he turned it down and retired from the space program because it was a such a sacrifice to his family. I have a lot of respect for that decision. I'm not sure I could turn that opportunity down.
I do think astronauts, BASE jumpers, high altitude alpine climbers, and free soloers are selfish to some degree if they have family and continue to engage in very high risk activities, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they shouldn't do them. I've read astronaut memoirs where they acknowledge it and struggle with it. Hell I'm selfish for continuing to climb even though I stick to relatively safe climbs. But it's a matter of degrees. I wouldn't tell anyone how to live their lives, but I'm not able to completely suspend my judgement. I do think these threads are useful and interesting to hear about how much risk others think is acceptable (for them personally in their situation) and the decision making process that goes into it.
P.S. I bet my wife would judge me harshly if I died because of something stupid like not finishing my knot, but would be more understanding if it was out of my control like rockfall. And I'd agree with her.
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coolrockclimberguy69
climber
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I don't take threats online or in person lightly.
If you think you have the balls to back up this threat, contact me.
LOL.
This forum never ceases to amuse me.
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dikhed
climber
State of fugue and disbelief
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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I don't take threats online or in person lightly.
If you think you have the balls to back up this threat, contact me.
That was not a personal threat, just an extrapolation.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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I really appreciate BASE's contributions. To address some of your comparisons--just from my perspective, of course--I DO think about hardcore aplinists and their ilk in the same way when they have kids. We all know that accidents can happen, but to actively seek out extreme risk when kids are in the picture strikes me as far too selfish. Perhaps this discussion and others like it might make some rad fellow/gal reconsider, but that's unlikely. It's still a worthwhile topic.
Re. astronauts: I happen to actually know one. He lived to tell the tale, and it is an amazing one. His best friend and fellow test pilot died in a spray of carbon fiber at over the speed of sound. He didn't have to do that flight; the program was moving into different hands; it was his error that caused the crash, too, like not finishing your knot or rapping off the end of the cord--simple mistake, fatal consequences. I had the profoundly painful experience of being with his wife and kids right after they got the news and later at a celebration of his life. His wife had begged him to stop those test flights. His ego was very much involved in the program, so he persisted--just one more. His wife's struggles to now raise two young kids on her own are profound. I think he owed it to them to dial back his involvement.
All of this is easy, maybe, in hindsight, but we can't stop thinking about the cost of our addictions. I was so damn impressed by Walter Bonnati when he climbed down off the Eiger and renounced high-end alpinism. The key is knowing when to pull back. I think children are one good way to know.
BAd
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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Pud, you can judge (or not) and it isn't gonna change a thing. Base104 is right; some people were born to do certain things and no amount of judgement is gonna change that. It's one of the things that I personally most admired about Dean Potter. I respect your point of view on this, and maybe don't even absolutely disagree with what you're saying but that last comment to Base104 about taking his comment so seriously is pretty darned over-the-top.
I'm with yeahman. Long before becoming a parent, I felt a strong sense of responsibility to not do something too crazy-risky because of my parents. I still do, although not in the same intense way that I do for my two children. Children are certainly not the only ones who's lives are devastated in these events.
I don't know but this guy dikhed is reminding me of burch. They both seem to thrive best in the dirt.
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WBraun
climber
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some people were born to do certain things and no amount of judgement is gonna change that.
Yes .. 100% spot on .....
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dikhed
climber
State of fugue and disbelief
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Something tells me he knows dick head well
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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It's in our DNA people.
What kind of species would we be without it?
Better a koala than a lion or tiger or chimpanzee?
I don't think so.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Base doesn't jump he just likes to encourage others to jump.
D#@&%e much!
Cheerleading prick!
Armchair sociopath!
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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Koalas have STDs we are probably more like them
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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It is easy to be a coward who judges others from the comfort of their chair.
It isn't my place to judge.
Sorry, you just contradicted yourself. You have a tendency to judge people A LOT.
Don't talk the talk, if you can't walk the walk.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Base doesn't jump he just likes to encourage others to jump.
D#@&%e much!
Cheerleading prick!
Armchair sociopath!
Flip Flop, I don't understand your hard on for BASE104. You do know that the BASE104 moniker means he was the 104th certified base jumper? Prior to that he did a number of walls in the ditch and climbs in the alps. He has moved on but his insight is relative. If you knew him you would get it.
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coolrockclimberguy69
climber
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Cheerleading prick!
go basejumpers
sis boom bah
jump off the cliff
fly by the rock
make a sick vid
piss off the wuffos
but don't go in
cuz it's not very cool
rah rah rah
goooooooooooooooooo TEAM!
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Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
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Jul 28, 2016 - 12:55pm PT
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Hey,
What about cops and soldiers? What about loggers? Should they quit their jobs when they have kids?
Is it only Ok to take risks when you have a family if you are getting paid for it? Or only if you aren't?
Please advise.
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BigB
Trad climber
Red Rock
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Jul 28, 2016 - 02:08pm PT
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cost of BASE?....Life!
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Jul 28, 2016 - 02:19pm PT
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I don't judge jumpers. Get going. Do what you love. You die, you lose. That said, watch out for the guys screaming go-for-it , some of those guys are sociopaths. And if they're selling something like fame, or red bull, or wing suits, well, buyer beware or worse. Xavier Bongard said it first " Don't BASE, it's too good, too addictive, too short, and I'm doomed" (paraphrased). Dan-O said it " I need to get scared down there" (less paraphrased). And all these mountain athletes, the highest echelon, are being killed by BASE jumping.
Xavier Bongard grew up in the Swiss Alps fergawdsake, they live and breathe the Alpine. It's in their blood. Listen to the man.
If you want to be a man and face the sh#t,try his Valley Tick List.
If you want to face a reasonable amount of risk, become a full rounded Alpinist, that means skiing, ice, rock, walls, rescue, leadership and judgement.
Then learn to swim. Everything. Big waves. Big water. And then be a waterman. Canoe, Raft, Sail. Surf goddamit.
You could probably fly para gliders, whitewater kayak, skateboard, MTB, skydive and some other stupid sh#t like taming snakes at Burning Man and being armed, loaded and loaded 24/7 and still die peacefully, boning your neighbor.
Above all, don't put importance where it doesn't belong. This is a Rock Climbing Website. BASE jumping brings mostly sadness and all too frequently, death. If you don't understand Semper Farcissimus, well, you should. And some guy cooler than everybody said, "Playing in the Mountains is a game. If you die then you lose that game.
Don't be a loser,
flip
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jul 28, 2016 - 02:22pm PT
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I wonder if the motorcycling community has similar armchair critiquers?
Great video. Right in the video it says:
The race has always had it's critics. But from the start it's danger was it's attraction.
Like climbing and BASE jumping, danger is part of the appeal. Personally I love other aspects more: the adventure and uncertainty, the physical challenge, the beauty, the planning and dreaming, the feeling of what your body is doing. But I understand other people do put more emphasis on and appreciation of risk simply for risks sake (and the adrenalin rush that often comes with it).
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Matt's
climber
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Jul 28, 2016 - 02:31pm PT
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wow, that isle of man race has ~250 deaths in ~100years of doing the race....
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Jul 28, 2016 - 02:58pm PT
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I blame the Queen. She is ultimately responsible for Mann. It is no coincidence that most of the deaths have occurred during her Reign. A pox on the phony Kings of England. The Occupation has gone on too long. Free Canadia!
Death to Empire.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Jul 28, 2016 - 03:00pm PT
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I don't judge jumpers. Get going. Do what you love. You die, you lose. That said, watch out for the guys screaming go-for-it , some of those guys are sociopaths. And if they're selling something like fame, or red bull, or wing suits, well, buyer beware or worse.
Sounds pretty judgmental to me.
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Lurkingtard
climber
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Jul 28, 2016 - 04:36pm PT
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Dipshits are the most judgemental.
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jul 28, 2016 - 04:49pm PT
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This is a complex subject, risk. I have a group of friends who are into just plain bike riding, and it is astonishing how many of them have broken an arm, shoulder, ripping a hand and needing $20,000 worth of surgery, etc.
Each weekend, the emergency clinics in Los Angeles are strewn with injured bikers. I feel safer on the rock than on a bicycle. You're riding along, and suddenly someone opens a car door right in front of you...............
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Jul 28, 2016 - 05:21pm PT
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Meng, that Isle of Man stuff is CRAZY. Young men gotta push it. Some go too far. It's a damn shame.
BAd
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
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Jul 28, 2016 - 09:47pm PT
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The landing target (circus net) ... has been tested repeatedly using dummies.
One of those 200-pound (91-kilogram) dummies ... crashed right through. I hope he takes the colon cleanse challenge duct-taped to the shitter, and loses about 75 pounds before exit day.
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jstan
climber
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Jul 29, 2016 - 09:44am PT
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astonishing how many of them have broken an arm, shoulder, ripping a hand and needing $20,000 worth of surgery, etc.
Arms are structurally complex and not nearly strong enough to stop a fall. How many people have you ever seen walking on their hands? For bicycle falls I found far superior the tactic of bunching the shoulder muscle and letting it take the impact. Never bothered the shoulder in the least.
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Gary
Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
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Jul 29, 2016 - 12:29pm PT
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What about jumping with no parachute?
What about being a spectator at rally? Is that irresponsible if you have kids?
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jul 29, 2016 - 12:39pm PT
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Without people who have the BASE mindset and that ability to try and mitigate extreme risk with skill, we wouldn't have planes and would never have step foot on the moon.
The world needs bright (and a little insane) people with large cajones. Progress would be almost impossible without them.
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knucko
climber
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Jul 29, 2016 - 12:45pm PT
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Heisenberg
Trad climber
RV, middle of Nowehere
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Jul 29, 2016 - 02:52pm PT
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^^
which is why people like Brook Ingleheart are such a joke. They take themselves so serious. Their word is gospel. There's no room to argue. It's like talking to a child.
He's a complete joke.
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slabbo
Trad climber
colo south
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Jul 29, 2016 - 03:01pm PT
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I don't know, i got an old buddy back in NH named Base..he's very safe.
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Jul 29, 2016 - 03:01pm PT
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I think it is a personal decision.
I've had 2 very close friends die pursuing adventure sports (not BASE), leaving children behind.
A tough road for those children, but their fathers wouldn't have been the people they were without their pursuit of adventure.
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mc813
Sport climber
San Antonio, Texas
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Jul 29, 2016 - 08:28pm PT
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Not sure how BASE jumping gets compared to advancing space exploration (astronauts) or defending a nation's freedom (soldier). 2 of those involve a possible sacrifice for the benefit of a greater good, whereas the other is for self-fulfillment. I read the TR reports of the man who was the (likely) catalyst for this thread, and can't say I wasn't sitting on the edge of my office chair/couch reading them and admiring the hell out of someone who had the stones to do that. Then again, I'm a single guy with no long-term girlfriend or any children to speak of. I'd like to think (but obviously can't be sure) that I'd dial things back if/when I bring a kid into the world. I think, for me, the focus would shift off of self-gratification to giving everything I could to enhance my son/daughter's life.
In regards to the Isle of Mann, yes those people would fall into the irresponsible category (IMO) if they have a family and choose to do that race with an aim to set the fastest lap. I didn't watch the videos but I'm sure they show going flat out, with little to no safety barriers/retention walls as you fly along town streets with looming brick buildings, curbs, and other immovable objects which will end your day very quickly. This can't be compared to "normal" motorcycle racing much the same way two young punks street racing on public roads is not sanctioned racing.
Veered off topic but I just saw too big of a discrepancy in some of the arguments/comparisons, and having participated (and still participating) in motorsports I felt the urge to comment.
At the end of the day I think it's a healthy dialogue, as long as it doesn't devolve into "you'll never understand", name calling, or any other non-constructive debate.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Jul 29, 2016 - 08:42pm PT
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That documentary on the Isle of Man TT was amazing. Thanks for posting. Definitely worth a watch. They die all the time at that event. Two went during the time period of the documentary. The reporter on the shorter vid said SEVEN died during the week he was there--three riders, four spectators. Amazing stuff. Effing nuts. Two blokes profiled crashed going 160 mph+, didn't die, and fully expected to go back to racing. A true blood sport. Can't say for road racing generally as I don't follow the sport, but the Isle of Man biz seems way sketchier than BASE or proxy flying for that matter. Phew....
BAd
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Jul 29, 2016 - 08:57pm PT
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Base is like a bug seeing how close it can get to the zapper.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 29, 2016 - 10:09pm PT
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So nice to hear so many of the folks here never judge others by their actions.
I bet they never lie either.
It's interesting to observe the reactions of non-racers to the Isle of Mann racing.
I wanted to race it since I was a kid, until I had one.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Jul 29, 2016 - 10:11pm PT
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mc813 wrote: "Not sure how BASE jumping gets compared to advancing space exploration (astronauts) or defending a nation's freedom (soldier). 2 of those involve a possible sacrifice for the benefit of a greater good, whereas the other is for self-fulfillment."
not sure it's possible to separate, as you have, what is for self-fulfillment and what is for the greater good... so you're saying that soldiers and astronauts don't get self-fulfillment out of their paths? and you're also saying that the self-knowledge that those exploring paths not organized by the collective, by definition can not lead to benefits for the greater good?
i'd argue that it's a worded dichotomy that while "neat" due to its creating order in a mapped and projected world, is one that doesn't reflect the messiness of actuality with its necessary interdependence between "self-fulfillment" and ability to benefit the greater good.
i don't believe, as you seem to, that one without the other is a possibility.
this is not necessarily a defence of base. and neither is it an indictment of following exploratory paths that are condoned by the collective.
rather both can be self-indulgent and selfish. and both can, ultimately, result in gains for the collective... even if the collective never takes up base and etc...
the world is not so simple that all of the knowledge that one gains exploring a particular field is necessarily unique to that field.
base jumpers learn a lot more than how to hold their hands and feet... just as the space program has shown us more than how much rocket propellant is required to get into orbit...
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Jul 29, 2016 - 10:55pm PT
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nah000
Well said. We all take our risks, whether it is climbing or driving on the freeway or whatever.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Jul 30, 2016 - 09:58am PT
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jul 29, 2016 - 12:39pm PT
Without people who have the BASE mindset and that ability to try and mitigate extreme risk with skill, we wouldn't have planes and would never have step foot on the moon.
The world needs bright (and a little insane) people with large cajones. Progress would be almost impossible without them.
Snonk! Can we associate a single human advancement of real value with BASE jumping? ( Helping Pinkies get their Ya Ya's out doesn't pass the value test) So? Why are dead BASE jumpers Heroes again?
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Jul 30, 2016 - 10:05am PT
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I'm right here Heisenberg. And you'll always be hiding.
By the way,
Am I the only one in the room who hung out with Dan-O, Shane, Dean and Sean? I'm a joke. No doubt. A joker. But, I'd rather know that I was the guy saying "take it easy" than the coward screaming "go for it!" from the bushes.
I'm Nobody but the fact remains that I've been handling the danger-zone personally and professionally since I was a boy and I can't forget the body count.
Sincerely,
Safety Sam.
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Heisenberg
Trad climber
RV, middle of Nowehere
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Jul 30, 2016 - 10:12am PT
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I'm right here too. In Reno. We're like neighbors Brook.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Jul 30, 2016 - 10:24am PT
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Cool, let's meet. Are you ready to meet Sasha?
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snakefoot
climber
Nor Cal
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flip, i dont think i have ever said BASE jumpers are heroes or that any particular person is. if i remember correctly, most of my posts are in regard to RIP or technical bs. Maybe your referring to my stoke towards Chris L for the jumps he opened in the sierra and my congrats? And just like art, it is in the eye of the beholder and claiming value/or not is not the point. The way i see it.. how we live is what matters and how we utilize our time here.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
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Thanks for the RIP, link and input.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Aug 20, 2016 - 04:20pm PT
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Base jumper Uli Emanuele, 29, videoed himself as he leapt from a mountain top in the Swiss Alps, but he crashed into rocks before he could open his parachute. He had been filming the stunt for US action camera make GoPro
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Aug 20, 2016 - 06:01pm PT
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Sorry to hear about another. I just watched the video of Uli going through those rocks. I suspect you better know what you're doing to try stuff like that. The Go-Pro tag line 'be a hero' certainly does not apply; this stuff isn't heroic, it's self satisfying.
I used to race formula cars and had one friend who died doing it. Steve Phillips crested Deer's Leap at the old Westwood track in B.C. and there was a deer, unsighted, on the track. He ran underneath it and took the impact with his helmet. He left three young daughters and his wife. Was he foolish? No, the unexpected happened. How can one plan for a deer on the track as you come over the hill? I had engine problems and had pitted just before it happened. Could have been me.
This stuff isn't heroic however, it's doing something you like a lot for reasons you like a lot. It's hard to balance the thrill of the chase with the consequences for those left behind. I know I was uncommunicative, introspective, and pretended to nap in the car before races started so people would leave me alone, but I wasn't doing dangerous sh*t like these wing suit people are. I can't imagine how tight they get. But I understand it.
Edit to add: I used to ride a rice rocket. Got on it one day and just sat there, thinking about all the close calls I'd had with grandma pulling out without seeing me, etc. etc. Got off the bike, sold it, and have never driven one since. But it was fun.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Aug 28, 2016 - 02:41pm PT
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yup... Friend of the guy from last week. live feed on facebook......
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Aug 28, 2016 - 03:12pm PT
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BASE fatalities in August:
2016: 15 (as of 9/2)
2015: 2
2014: 9
2013: 6
2012: 3
Of course, we don't really know if the fatality rate per jump is higher in August, or increasing over time,
because we don't have a measure of how many total jumps. It's vacation month for many people in Europe.
http://www.blincmagazine.com/forum/wiki/BASE_Fatality_List
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Aug 28, 2016 - 06:58pm PT
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I have never done base, only traditional parachute jumping from airplanes. A wing suit jump off a cliff is comparable to a traditional parachute jump from an extremely low altitude. If everything goes right you're fine, but the margin for error or miscalculation is small.
I don't know enough about wing suit jumping to know if people can jump out of an airplane and do it, but it sounds more sensible to me. You can jump out at 12,000 ft. or so and have a nice fly, but leave plenty of time to end the flight and prepare for the ground. If you are landing near see level, you have a lot of flight time that way.
I have seen plenty of footage, and it seems like even during "safe" jumps which end without injury, the tree tops are often uncomfortably close.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Aug 28, 2016 - 07:10pm PT
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The way the skills are sharpened, by flying from greater Hieghts
From jump planes
Watch out for that deadly "Patch of dead air" , ,this one has double impacts, fair warning.
http://youtu.be/FyYMTK5-W5k
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Aug 28, 2016 - 08:17pm PT
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^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Yeah, the effect of draft and the consequence, of turbulence from the flyer in front below you!
You Know it!
& I know it, but the guys jumping in that video seem to have missed it on that day.( there has been some back and forth between others about who has the right to comment, so in response to an audio from a phone in a pocket I posted something that led to good videos that represent some of the fire, passion & stoke that is part of the whole...
http://youtu.be/-C_jPcUkVrM,
there must be an English version of that
this is a fun one,
http://youtu.be/8L8UCfxmtSw
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Huh, so both those guys who "threaded the needle" are no longer with us. Very sad and totally predictable. Tell your friends and family you love them! That is one dangerous sport.
BAd
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