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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 22, 2016 - 09:29am PT
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Hey ST Campers,
With the Cavs championship parade today, downtown Cleveland is on display. If you have ever wondered why there are so many Cleveland jokes, you can judge for yourself.
The Cavs are the people's team.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jun 22, 2016 - 09:42am PT
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I can hear Cavs fans singin',
"It must be Christmastime."
Good museum, though.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jun 22, 2016 - 11:11am PT
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I thought of you and Alistair Begg as consolation for this Warriors' fan. The Cavs won the series, more than the Warriors lost it. Congratuations.
John
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 22, 2016 - 11:34am PT
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The population of the greater Cleveland area plus greater Akron is about 2.5 million. An estimated 1,000,000 of them are in downtown Cleveland, whose population is about 350,000. The parade is stuck--too many people. Not sure anyone cares. The Cavs players and all of their fans are having a great time.
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little Z
Trad climber
un cafetal en Naranjo
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Jun 22, 2016 - 12:05pm PT
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I was born in Cleveland. One of my earliest childhood memories is seeing waves of dead fish wash up on our neighborhood beach. Went to my first major league basaeball game at that stadium (well, not that stadium, the one in the background by the lake. well, not that one either, but the one that used to be where that one is now). Never got to celebrate a championship though. Congrats to those still living in the mistake-by-the-lake.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jun 22, 2016 - 12:22pm PT
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Congrats to those still living in the mistake-by-the-lake.
Now, now, little Z. How many cities can say they inspired a song entitled "Burn On, Big River."
John
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jun 22, 2016 - 12:26pm PT
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Brother-in-law lives in Cleveland. We had to do a family visit one Thanksgiving, and will likely have more in the future (can you sense my excitement?). While at the airport rental car counter, the two young ladies working behind it look at my driver's license and say: "You're from Los Angeles. Why did you come HERE?"
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 22, 2016 - 01:17pm PT
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Well, with last three posts, I am sorry that I started this thread. Cleveland's past is like a bad illness from which we recovered, but every time we see old friends they stand around and reminisce about how bad we looked when we sick. Doesn't matter how healthy we are now.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Jun 22, 2016 - 01:49pm PT
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^^^^. I agree with you Roger. I grew up in Western Pa and we frequently went to Cleveland and Pittsburgh for sporting events. The two cities were in horrific decline. The rivers were sledge heaps which regularly caught on fire. We lived near Lake Erie and had to give some deep thought about the safety of swimming in it.
What is so unfortunate is that so little is known about their Renaissance except by people nearby. I know more about Pittsburgh than Cleveland but I know that both have had dramatic turnarounds. They have big city problems, like all large cities but they really turned things around. Neighborhoods have been revived, a lot of urban beauty and charm has been restored. Young professionals are living downtown again with wonderful restaurants and venues.
While I was rooting for GSW....my hometown was rooting for the Cavs so it's kind of a win win for me. Thanks for sharing about Cleveland. There really is a world beyond California.
Susan
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little Z
Trad climber
un cafetal en Naranjo
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Jun 22, 2016 - 02:45pm PT
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Sorry Roger. You're right, the Cleveland of my youth no longer exists. Went back there a few years ago when I was in Dayton for my mom's funeral. My brother and I drove up to see a ballgame and to visit the old neighborhood. We were impressed. That was my first visit back since we moved to Cincinnati in ´64. Looks like a place I'd love to live in and raise a family. I guess it was a good enough place to grow up in back then, although I mostly remember it as a good place to be "from"
Go Tribe, 2016! Tito is the man for the job.
the aforementioned beach, now free of floaters
the old homestead. Looks like some lesbian lives there now
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jun 22, 2016 - 02:48pm PT
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As we used to say in South Berkeley and Berkeley proper:
"Power to the People"
It is pretty. Any truth to the rumour that P&G is contemplating a move to Cleveland?
Always want to check out the public library of a city, before judging it.
http://www.bluffton.edu/~sullivanm/ohio/cleveland/library/library2.html
If you want to look you'll have to copy and paste. ST doesn't like the tilde.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 22, 2016 - 03:00pm PT
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Hi Susan,
Pittsburgh is beautiful. I went to graduate school at CMU in 1980-82 and Pittsburgh had just started to right itself. They started at The Point with the nice park and fountain. Now the whole downtown is revitalized, the scary areas along Penn Aveune up the Allegheny are now cool places with great restaurants and shops. The steel mills along the Monongahela were replaced by all the city's tech centers. And the bridges, like Cleveland's, are painted and pretty. Nice place.
Cleveland is sprawling outward to the east and west so the revitalization has started in the downtown, along the river, on the near west side and in University Circle. Now the stretch between the downtown and University Circle is building up. People who live in fancy places come here for jobs and then won't leave: it's too nice and they would have to reduce their standard of living.
Pittsburgh and Cleveland are lucky, as compared to Detroit for instance. While Pittsburg and Cleveland were getting to work, Detroit became a cesspool of bad politics. It too will come back--all of these areas are naturally beautiful, have good weather balance, are not disaster centers, have fresh water and centrally located: all the same reasons they became great cities to begin with.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jun 22, 2016 - 03:10pm PT
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Throw in some life expectancy numbers and gang-gun numbers (popular on the ST):
Gang-related shootings underscore problem of retaliatory gun violence
September 03, 2015 at 11:30 AM, updated September 04, 2015 at 4:12 PM
CLEVELAND, Ohio – A feud between two East Side street gangs has punctuated another Cleveland summer marred by gun violence.
Police attribute almost two-dozen shootings to the tension between the Broadway-Fleet area rivals. Investigators believe the battle began with a robbery of drugs and money in April that spawned one retaliatory shooting after another into August.
Retaliation shootings and a code of silence amongst the victims and perpetrators make these crimes particularly difficult for police to solve. The "I'll take care of it myself" attitude coupled with a proliferation of cheap guns on the streets have fueled an increase in the number of shootings in Cleveland and many other American cities.
Police and community leaders have tried many methods to quell the violence here, but little has proven effective. Gun-related assaults are higher than they've been in nearly a decade, and homicides are up this year as well.
It isn't a problem isolated to Cleveland. Cities from Baltimore to New Orleans are dealing with surging levels of gun violence.
'They are at war with each other'
The feud between the Broadway Boys and Fleet Boys boiled over about 2 a.m. April 5, at a birthday party at the Big Boss Lounge -- a now-defunct bar at East 71st street and Harvard Avenue.
Investigators believe the shooting was provoked by a robbery of a massive amount of drugs. Whatever the reason, it sparked a string of retaliatory gun fights and a firebombing that put more than a dozen people in the hospital, including two children, and left three dead over the next four months, multiple law enforcement sources familiar with the investigation said.
Antwowine Palmer, 22, got into a heated argument with a bartender at the Big Boss Lounge right before the shooting, according to a police report. If that name sounds familiar, it is because Palmer was arrested last week in connection with a string of armed robberies in Tremont.
Palmer, along with Kenneth Jackson Jr., Tervon'tae Taylor, D'wan Dillard and Calvin Rembert, face dozens of charges in connection with a string of carjackings in the popular West Side neighborhood connected to Broadway by Interstate 490. The men are all members of the Broadway Boys, according to court documents filed this week.
But on that night in April, three men fired shots into a crowd assembled outside the bar seconds after Palmer left. The commotion sent bartenders and customers beneath their tables. The crowd outside scattered. The gunmen ran toward Harvard Avenue as someone in the crowd returned fire. One man ran inside the bar, bleeding from a bullet wound and pleading for help. Friends dropped off three other men at MetroHealth Medical Center. Each of the four men who took bullets at the Big Boss Lounge shooting hailed from the Fleet neighborhood.
And none of them would talk to police.
"They are at war with each other," said a source involved in the investigation but not authorized to speak publicly.
Police have accused two groups of men and women in a violent, summer-long feud in and around the city's Slavic Village neighborhood. Though each person pictured here faces gun-related charges, they have also been victims of gun violence.
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2015/09/gang-related_shootings_undersc_1.html
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Jun 22, 2016 - 04:32pm PT
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hey there say, roger... nice to see this, that you shared with us...
say, my MOM, JUST CALLED her sister, that day, to 'ask her'--
soooooooooooooo... is there a PARADE going on, :))
they are from cleveland, ohio, yep...
i was born in garfield heights, but never lived there, or, in cleveland long:
our dad moved us, later to (two nearby states) but actually then
moved us to CALIFORNIA... where, we all got established, in one way or another...
:)
she was glad for cleveland, though, she is not a 'game watcher' per-say...
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 22, 2016 - 06:05pm PT
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Holy Moly, z, I had better buy a plot, sell my stuff and work on my bucket list. Do you have the same information for the Bay Area or LA or other cool places to live?
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jun 22, 2016 - 06:15pm PT
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Sorry Roger. My visits are equal part dealing with in-law family dynamics (awkward) with some sight seeing throw in. We enjoyed Little Italy, the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Chagrin Falls. Terrific museum of art too, far better than one would expect and as good as say, the Norton Simon here in LA. Givem my experience with the rental car ladies, there definitely seems to be a love-hate thing going on with some of the locals as well.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jun 22, 2016 - 06:17pm PT
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Wait, no riots? Then it didn't happen.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jun 22, 2016 - 06:29pm PT
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Roger: Don't be going all hasty on me, I thought you were only about 45-50. :)
I did not notice the heavy black line in the County graph, which apparently delineates Cleveland, till now.
I'm wondering how many miles wide the county is and why the eastern half seems to have much higher life expectancy.
The more I look at that graph the more confusing it becomes. I think I have to go back and read the page it appeared on.
May be best to just ignore it for now.Quote Here
On to the bigger picture.
The results for L.A. & Bay area appear to be not dissimilar to the Ohio (statistical significance unknown and the county data above are aggregated, anyone have data on the relative distribution of males and females in Cuyahoga. I know Chrissie Hynde left).
Here's the entire U.S. (2007) Females only (top) (I'm assuming lesbian Subaru owners are included). Males (could include some Subaru drivers) (bottom).
My intuitive feel is that California gang activity "Trumps" Ohio's.
Not about Ohio or California, but check out the big blue areas for both F&M in Colorado.
I'd like to substitute this for the smiley symbol above.
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Gary
Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
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Jun 22, 2016 - 06:43pm PT
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Always want to check out the public library of a city, before judging it.
They also have one of the top orchestras in the world.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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little Z
Trad climber
un cafetal en Naranjo
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Jun 22, 2016 - 07:02pm PT
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right you are Gary. Another childhood memory was my folks taking us to hear, and see, the orchestra, directed by George Szell. It made a life-long impression.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 22, 2016 - 08:05pm PT
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Z, the map in your post shows the eastern side of Cleveland (center city is off the map on the upper left.) Cleveland extends to the West about as far as to the East. The poorest sections of Cleveland are in the East, just before the Heights communities which include a wide mix of wealth, income, race, and religion. On the far right of your map the suburban communities are very well off and more segregated. The life expectancy follows income.
Cleveland city is spread out. From 1900 - 1960 Cleveland was around the 6th largest city in the US, with a population of 875,000 in 1960. It is now around 350,000. Everyone who could moved to the suburbs to the East, West, and South did, black and white. The downtown has beautiful buildings, is safe and is super clean but has been mostly empty after the work day except for restaurants, games and shows at Play House Square, the largest performing arts center behind Lincoln Center in Manhattan.
New conversion of office building into apartments cannot happen fast enough-artists who work in NY live in Cleveland. The public schools suck so young families move to the suburbs. (This is changing slowly: my wife is the founder of an academic high school grounded in digital artS within the public school system-I don't know how she does it: she has a fulltime job as the executive director of a nonprofit which provides arts education to 250,000 kids each year. I am a dedicated slacker by comparison.)
There is a large latino community within Cleveland on the West side and the largest Hungarian community outside of Budapest in the southern communities. Cleveland, amongst midwest cities is very diverse. Ancient neighborhoods are being resettled by urban pioneers. The Cleveland Clinic and Case Western University hospitals anchor the far Eastern edge of the city. University Circle at the Eastern edge houses Severance Hall for the Orchestra, the Cleveland Museum of Art, the Natural History Museum, the Botanical Gardens, the Cleveland Institute of Music, the Cleveland School of the Arts, etc.
These are holdovers from 100 years ago, but still going strong. What surprises folks is the Cleveland is beautiful and among the best cities in the US for arts, education, and culture but very affordable. And for unknown reasons Cleveland is a foodies town with a huge number of great restaurants at all price points. After living in New York last for work, I can attest to this. We also have major sports teams who always lose, just to maintain the vibe. Cleveland is the smallest market to host major football, baseball, and basketball.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jun 22, 2016 - 08:18pm PT
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Thanks for the clarification Roger. I now know more about Cleveland than I do about Detroit, which my parents escaped from in the early 1940's.
Where did my father opt for? Washington state, then subsequently San Diego due to Congressman Bob Wilson whom he met in the army.
Funny where these things lead. The life expectancy maps for the entire U.S. are a bit of an eye-opener.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 22, 2016 - 08:36pm PT
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I am a dedicated slacker by comparison.
once a climber, always a climber... but she knew that about you from the beginning
congrats on your city's celebration! enjoy it and the spot light
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Jun 22, 2016 - 09:08pm PT
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So happy for Cleveland. Although I've been out in silicon valley for the last 15 years I grew up in Cleveland! I think if zbrown posted up the bay area life expectancy in a similar grid size used in Cleveland it would show similar results. East Palo Alto and East Cleveland, as well as parts of Oakland are basically the same places. Hell the only place any ever tried to mug me was in Detroit.
For all the bad wrap Cleveland gets, it has an awesome natural history museum, art museum, and a lot of culture as well as being the home of Case Western University.
I would agree that living in Buffalo or Baltimore could be sketchy though ;)
Anyhow, congrats to the Cavs and the City of Cleveland!
EDIT: Rodger, I just read you post a few up and I did forget to mention Severance - I remember going to concerts there as a child!
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jun 22, 2016 - 09:11pm PT
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sorry. i deleted that top of the page post.
i see now how much cleveland means to you.
CLEVELAND ROCKS!
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 23, 2016 - 04:30am PT
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Thanks Blue, The really odd thing about the greater Cleveland area is the gap between perceptions and reality. Cities which get a bad rap generally deserve it, but even perceptions about those cities are balanced. I think Cleveland is unique. Foreign visitors are blown away when they visit and never understand Cleveland jokes.
We moved here for my first job after graduate school in 1982. Two SF kids with a new baby and a mountain of school debt. We cried. We had just assumed we would move back to the City or someplace almost as cool, like Paris or Boston. We had opportunities to move, and now that the girls are grow, we could live anywhere. When we travel we are always struck by how great other places are, but when we return, for a few minutes, we see Cleveland in the same light. Then it all becomes familiar. The only places that retained their magic, even behind the curtain, are Paris, The City and Yosemite.
We are recipients of the huge concentration of wealth in Cleveland from 100 years ago which built the beautiful buildings downtown, the cultural institutions, the Cleveland Foundation, and the largest areas of fine old homes, never left in disrepair, in the US. Our non-Cleveland friends think everyone is a zillionaire. This is in my neighborhood in Cleveland Heights.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jun 23, 2016 - 06:44am PT
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I think if zbrown posted up the bay area life expectancy in a similar grid size used in Clevelan
Well kev, I already posted a map showing that life expectancy in California and Ohio is pretty similar.
If you want to see a county sized grid let me suggest that you look one up and post it.
Roger:
Speaking of wealth
I wonder if Ohio has the rather nice retirement packages that Cali "awards" its civil servants.
A San Diego under sheriff retired after 35 years at age 61 to the tune of an annual payout of $230,000. He was recently hired back 3 months later ($230K still in tact) and gets paid roughly $95K for 1/3 time work.
We haven't touched on weather etc. What is the Ohio equivalent of seismophobia?
EDIT:
I have an extra 15 seconds to spend. As Roger correctly pointed out, life expectancy is more highly correlated with economic factors than geography. Anyway heres Alameda County looking at you.
Don't let it out, but I may be working on in addition to "the geometry of innocent flesh on the bone", a coefficient of death by natural disaster. People magazine has professed an interest.
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Gary
Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
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Jun 23, 2016 - 06:54am PT
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A San Diego under sheriff retired after 35 years at age 61 to the tune of an annual payout of $230,000. He was recently hired back 3 months later ($230K still in tact) and gets paid roughly $95K for 1/3 time work.
Only law enforcement and fire fighters get that sort of deal. And politicians.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jun 23, 2016 - 07:19am PT
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Lefty ended up in Cleveland after selling out Pancho in the deserts down in Mexico.
Yeah, but the under sheriff coulda had him any day.
BTW
On October 21, 2008, a number of Van Zandt's personal possessions were auctioned off at The Northside in Akron, Ohio. Townes lived for some time in Colorado and from the looks of the l.e. map, might have been better off to stay there, if long life was what he was seeking.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jun 23, 2016 - 07:26am PT
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Getting back to some of the impetus for this thread.
Congrats to the CAVs. They made a phenomenal comeback.
I actually originally was pulling for them since they didn't get to compete with a full squad last year. However, gradually the homeboy in me drifted to the "locos".
I'll be happy to see LeBraj out at WindanSea in the future.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Jun 23, 2016 - 09:23am PT
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I love seeing Cleveland,
it brings back found memories of when I was The Brave Cowboy. I had roped a phine Thoro-bred, Phillie,. Un-willing to give up my finest bridle, & not wanting to release the the horse back into the herd, since the breakin process was complete I let her graze one last summer in her home paddock.
Also, it is Better than driving to the flat beige state of plain.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jun 30, 2016 - 08:27am PT
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Cleveland is still high from their long sports drought being over.
You go Roger, fly your flag with pride.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Only a town that Lebron could love...nothing wrong with that.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 16, 2016 - 08:44pm PT
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Well a number of years ago they cleaned up one of the most polluted rivers in the country so they seem prepared.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 18, 2016 - 01:08am PT
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We are in East Africa--Zanzibar over the weekend for our daughter's wedding, Dar today, Addis Ababa for a few days and then Cleveland after the place has been cleaned up. I really do hope that it goes well for everyone: Cleveland does not need any more bad press.
I can imagine that the Cleveland police are very nervous about Ohio's open-carry gun laws, but I cannot see how they can achieve an exception to the State's laws--the precedent would be Uuge. In Dallas, during the sniper attack on the police, there were more than a few open carry enthusiast with long rifles. As far as I know, none participated, begging the question "what's the value of open-carry if the owners don't use their guns."
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jul 18, 2016 - 02:57am PT
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Safe journey, Roger.
Rhetorically, "Why must so many threads which start well turn into "gun threads?"
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hooblie
climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
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Jul 18, 2016 - 08:41am PT
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large calibre single shot crowd dispersal device
pacification option limited to colo. and washington
thankyou roger, you've made a credible case and
here's to the best kind of outcome for breedloveburg
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Gary
Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
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Jul 18, 2016 - 09:44am PT
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Rhetorically, "Why must so many threads which start well turn into "gun threads?"
'Cause this is America. The solution to every problem is contained in the second amendment.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jul 18, 2016 - 09:47am PT
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you've made a credible case
Really, for what? Seems to me all he's done is pose questions even if rhetorically.
It seems to me the cogent question is when (not if) will the anarchists show up?
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Norton
Social climber
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Jul 18, 2016 - 09:58am PT
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"Why must so many threads which start well turn into "gun threads?"
because they are like old tractors, they are cool
lots of stuff can be talked about in great deal with guns
take ballistics, endless interesting conversations about the best choice of bullets
entry and exit holes, different kinds of hollow points, the proper powder loads
it's a good opportunity to show how much you know and to educate others
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 18, 2016 - 11:39am PT
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It's a testosterone fueled badass feeling that I have the means to make your day so don't fuk with me bro! Guy's who pack swagger a bit more and their chest adds an inch or two along with that personal item below the belt.
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hellroaring
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Jul 18, 2016 - 12:03pm PT
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As far as the anarchists showing up, are we talking real anarchists or the poseurs & provokers?..."**In short, Anarchism means a condition or society where all men and women are free, and where all enjoy equally the benefits of an ordered and sensible life."-Alexander Berkman 1870-1936.
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