Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 49 of total 49 in this topic |
Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
|
|
what they've always done, Smoke.
|
|
brotherbbock
climber
Alta Loma, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 5, 2016 - 11:31am PT
|
Yep.
|
|
pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
|
|
Puts a damper on the market because they cannot be legally sold to 18 yr olds anymore.
That's a good thing.
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
Puts a damper on the legal market
This will grow the black market. The cigs still have to come from somewhere. The sales will be un-taxed so the sellers ca match retail and make more money.
|
|
brotherbbock
climber
Alta Loma, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 5, 2016 - 11:50am PT
|
The concept of a cig black market almost seems comical.
|
|
Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
|
|
It has been proven that anything that makes smoking harder to do will cut the number of smokers. Taxes have worked well for reducing the smoking rate in California. Yes, some people do need to be protected from themselves
This will grow the black market. The cigs still have to come from somewhere. The sales will be un-taxed so the sellers ca match retail and make more money.
Opponents always make that arguement. But the black market has never appeared.
Indian reservations are the black market. Gasoline and ciggies are untaxed on the reservations so what do the indians do, raise their prices to about the off-rez price. The only exception to that is the casino gas station in Fort Independence, they always have cheaper gas than anyone on the east side.
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
|
|
Opponents always make that arguement. But the black market has never appeared.
Indian reservations are the black market.
Maybe re-read that. Indians can't be a black market? Racist!!! (or something...)
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
It's odd, and inconsistent, how we treat 18 yo. On the one hand, they can be drafted for military service, vote, enter into binding contracts, and face capital punishment for their crimes. On the other hand, we don't think they are capable of making appropriate decisions about drinking or smoking.
|
|
brotherbbock
climber
Alta Loma, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 5, 2016 - 01:06pm PT
|
If you read the article Dirtbag they said anyone enlisted that is 18 and above could still puff the sweet sweet cigs.
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
|
|
"What are the high school kids gonna do?"
Both my high school and my junior high had smoking areas where students could smoke. You had to be in the ninth grade to smoke in the junior high smoking area.
|
|
overwatch
climber
Arizona
|
|
The concept of a cig black market almost seems comical.
yeah it is a laugh riot in the jail system
|
|
Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
|
|
Recently had a friend drop dead from COPD, lifelong smoker.
Nothing says dumb quite like smoking cigarettes.
(appologies to my good friends who do smoke, you would be so much smarter as a non-smoker and we would enjoy having you around longer)
I started in with cigs at age 14 and fortunately smoked the last one at about age 26. It was against the law which somehow made it more interesting.
|
|
tang0nathan
Boulder climber
Hayward, Ca
|
|
The concept of a cig black market almost seems comical.
Haha I agree. I laughed quite loud when I read this. It's really easy to get cigarettes. Ask your brother/sister/friend. It's not that difficult. But really funny to think about. I started smoking cigarettes at 16 - yes, I know. Bad Nathan. But, I didn't have to go on Silk Road to buy them. I did what a normal high school kid did to get something I should have - ask my friend.
Kind of glad that this happened. Kind of strange that if you are in military over 18, you can buy cigarettes.
|
|
EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
|
|
Growing up, everyone got their smoking permission at age twelve. Carpooling in junior high typically involved lots of secondhand smoke. In high school, you were allowed to smoke when you turned sixteen.
It was acceptable for adults to send their kids to the store to buy cigarettes.
We've come a long way, baby.
|
|
Reeotch
climber
4 Corners Area
|
|
Fricken communists!
Do they really think that's going to stop anyone, pffft!
Don't they know there's a population crisis (not to mention a social security shortfall looming) . . .
I say, smoke away . . .
|
|
brotherbbock
climber
Alta Loma, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 5, 2016 - 02:19pm PT
|
yeah it is a laugh riot in the jail system
^^^That actually made me laugh out loud.
I agree with the following:
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
Nicht mehr rauchen dummkopf Americano ....
|
|
brotherbbock
climber
Alta Loma, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 5, 2016 - 02:22pm PT
|
I want a crankloon translated also please ^^^
|
|
Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
|
|
Werner, Americans are not necessarily stupid. You find stupidity in every corner of the world, and you know that. Being stupid is not an ethnic, religious or anything "doctrine" (hah hah).
Stupidity crosses all lines, rich and poor, educated and unwashed, right wing or left; stupidity and ignorance is inherent in humankind… but so is intelligence.
Of course, I am not telling you or anybody anything new, just stating the obvious. But I love it when you take the mickey out of us Yanks. I mean, what you say about stupid Americans is not exactly rocket science, Mr WV Braun.
I had a six-match tour of Germany with San Francisco Concordia in the summer of 1985 (win 2, drew 2, lost 2), and boy did I see some stupid Germans.
But most were smart and decent, friendly (some great BBQs and a tour of Dortmunder Actien Braueri (EDIT: with a fabulous lunch laid on for us) and Kaiserslautern FC stadium - Fritz-Walter Stadion- and of course Bayern Munich - which my Bavarian heritage appreciated, and Bayern being my third team behind Celtic and Barcelona).
And you know, I see smart and stupid everywhere I have lived, worked and travelled. I see smart people on the street and a particularly stupid person I see in the mirror everyday. Who is that guy?
Okay back on the thread topic.
As far are raising the age to smoke cigs seems counterproductive, in my opinion. Education, as always, is the best deterrent to smoking.
At present, I am in a postgraduate program at University College Dublin - Postgraduate Certificate in Innovation, Entrepreneurship and Enterprise (30 credits towards a masters) at the UCD Innovation Academy. One project the team I was chosen on was about the potential decriminalization/legalization of medicinal cannabis in Ireland.
A lot of people just do not know the facts (about medicinal cannabis) in Ireland.
Do 18-year-old "Californians" know the facts about cigarettes?
EDIT
And I once saw a dummkopf Werner, at least silly, in a Camp 4 campfire party, circa 1975. Of course, I could have been hallucinating.
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
The concept of a cig black market almost seems comical.
Obviously you aren't from NYC, where a "cig" black market has flourished since Bloomberg taxed the crap out of smokes.
They're driving truckloads of cigs in from neighboring states with lower taxes. They can price them below NYC market and still make money. And for kids they just put a guy on the street in front of the local mini mart, sell 'em for a buck or more apiece and a few scums make out.
|
|
rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
|
|
Patrick...What do the krauts charge for a pole smoke..?
|
|
Byran
climber
Half Dome Village
|
|
It's odd, and inconsistent, how we treat 18 yo. On the one hand, they can be drafted for military service, vote, enter into binding contracts, and face capital punishment for their crimes. On the other hand, we don't think they are capable of making appropriate decisions about drinking or smoking.
^This
I think alcohol, cigs, and pot should all be legal at 18. But I guess if we're going to raise the legal age for one of them, it should be tobacco... by far the most harmful of the three. Not that it will really matter though. Most people who smoke started before age 18.
|
|
Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
|
|
We already know what the left will say, they will say something about the dangers of smoking without considering the other side of the coin
We need to hear from the Conservatives that can tout the benefits of smoking before we can have a consensus on the value of raising the legal age limit.
that's just being fair and balanced
dangers from smoking vs. benefits of smoking
you decide
big money is at stake
|
|
zBrown
Ice climber
|
|
Uh, amerikanito ?
|
|
crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
|
|
Been to Europe? German's smoke like a smokestack.
|
|
Stone Cowboy
Trad climber
Livermore, CA.
|
|
smoke on the water...
|
|
BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
|
|
It's odd, and inconsistent, how we treat 18 yo. On the one hand, they can be drafted for military service, vote, enter into binding contracts, and face capital punishment for their crimes. On the other hand, we don't think they are capable of making appropriate decisions about drinking or smoking.
18 yro's can smoke and drink if in the military, and on a military base.
So they deserve to kill themselves!
|
|
BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
|
|
We already know what the left will say, they will say something about the dangers of smoking without considering the other side of the coin
We need to hear from the Conservatives that can tout the benefits of smoking before we can have a consensus on the value of raising the legal age limit.
WTF does that even mean????
You are so prejudice you prolly never even touched your dick with your very own left hand. Ha
if you can post even an inkling of wisdom from those two queer statements above, i'll retract my appraisal.
|
|
Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
|
|
Where would America be without slaves and tobacco?
|
|
BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
|
|
^^^who should we thank?
we're certainly not the inventors!
|
|
Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
|
|
Dingus, thanks for your thoughts, I am doing okay.
Still fighting the HSE and social workers to have access to Jennie and being told BS, as well from the nursing home owner. My sister-in-law Kathleen (Pleasant Hill/Lafayette), my late dear brother Mac's wife/widow, came from California to visit me April 14-21, she had never been to Ireland (just about everywhere else in Europe though).
She said she a great time. She went to see Jennie twice (I took Jen home - California- Christmas 2008 to meet friends and family) and said Jennie was in good health and frame of mind, despite her Korsakoff's and asked about me, repeatedly, the second visit all she talked about was me.
Does he have a girlfriend?
No, you are the love of his life, he has photos of you around the house.
Is he working?
No he is in school working on his masters.
Why doesn't he visit me, I'd love to see him, perhaps he could take me out for a while. I still love him. He must be busy.
He writes to you all the time.
I don't receive his letters. I want to see him.
He is only less than an hour away and would loved to visit you regularly.
But… the nursing home owner and social worker say Jen does not want to see me. Hearsay, second hand.
She is institutionalized Dingus, and probably drugged (my supposition). Her best friend Eileen she grew up with in Dublin, and Kathleen, and my landlord all agree, she is not getting my letters, photos or posts. But we are speculating.
I said to the one social worker (the nicer one, I guess), that she is institutionalized.
No, she is not.
Look up the word, I replied.
I know this has nothing to do with smoking in California, but…
Jennie is being denied some rights under the EU Patient Charter. Kathleen and my cousin Ann (prominent doctor of psychology in LA), both agree, that i If this was happening in a nursing home in California, there would be arrests or at least citations.
My landlord Graham is still insistent over the past 17 months that I go to court for visitation rights.
I have no legal rights as I am not blood kin nor her husband, so I am told by the social workers.
BS, I was her partner for going on nine years and her carer for over four, recgonised as such by the Department of Social Protection.
Apologies for the thread drift, but as this is the only forum I contribute (if that is the correct word) to, and not a lot, especially lately, after 11 years, I feel I know other Supertopians.
Here is to the Taco Stand, great people, great climbing stuff and then some.
Cheers
Patrick
|
|
Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
|
|
Obviously you aren't from NYC, where a "cig" black market has flourished since Bloomberg taxed the crap out of smokes.
Not only that, it's important enough and good ole Bloomberg needs his cig revenue so bad that they choke out and kill citizens because they have the audacity to sell them one at a time without collecting the tax.
We still love watching Kalifornia eat itself from the inside out.
|
|
Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
|
|
Hey blu
just forget about understanding it
It's way over your head
|
|
pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
|
|
Anything that slows tobacco profiteers is a good thing.
The incredible burden tobacco has placed on our healthcare system is only eclipsed by the suffering and heartache is has caused so many families.
It is a genuine plague.
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
|
|
I'd draw the line somewhere well before sending armed agents to enforce cigarette tax laws. Don't want another Eric Garner for just smokes.
|
|
fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
|
|
Tobacco is not a plague. It's a harmless plant when left alone in the dirt.
As usual, the political puppets pass even more useless laws that will do absolutely nothing positive and waste more resources on enforcing such nonsense.
Smoking, a behavior, is the problem. Education is the only way to correct such behaviors.
There's a family near us who grows tobacco and sells their own cigarettes and other various tobacco poisons for cash. No tax.
It's a plant, a commodity, and no amount of laws or supply-side shenanigans is ever going to limit that supply to any great degree.
|
|
Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
|
|
Every middle school grad, on the first day of high school, should be issued a sixer of old e and a bag of Bali Shag, both of which they will be required to consume, in their entirety in one sitting. Lock 'em in the gym.... Or spend a week with Tucker. Problem solved.
|
|
pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
|
|
Tobacco is not a plague. It's a harmless plant when left alone in the dirt. Ok, SMOKING is the plague.
Smoking leads to disease and disability and harms nearly every organ of the body.
More than 16 million Americans are living with a disease caused by smoking.
For every person who dies because of smoking, at least 30 people live with a serious smoking-related illness.
Smoking causes cancer, heart disease, stroke, lung diseases, diabetes, and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), which includes emphysema and chronic bronchitis.
Smoking also increases risk for tuberculosis, certain eye diseases, and problems of the immune system, including rheumatoid arthritis.
Smoking is a known cause of erectile dysfunction in males.
Worldwide, tobacco use causes nearly 6 million deaths per year, and current trends show that tobacco use will cause more than 8 million deaths annually by 2030.
Cigarette smoking is responsible for more than 480,000 deaths per year in the United States, including nearly 42,000 deaths resulting from secondhand smoke exposure. This is about one in five deaths annually, or 1,300 deaths every day.
On average, smokers die 10 years earlier than nonsmokers.
If smoking continues at the current rate among U.S. youth, 5.6 million of today’s Americans younger than 18 years of age are expected to die prematurely from a smoking-related illness. This represents about one in every 13 Americans aged 17 years or younger who are alive today. -CDC
|
|
blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
|
|
On average, smokers die 10 years earlier than nonsmokers.
One of those non-intuitive observations is that smoking may well save the government money becasue it usually kills people after they've completed their full working live, but before they've got a chance to collect much social security.
Conspiracy nuts suggest the government doesn't want everyone to quit because then the gov will have to pay out too much in social security.
|
|
looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Lassitude 33
|
|
One of those non-intuitive observations is that smoking may well save the government money becasue it usually kills people after they've completed their full working live, but before they've got a chance to collect much social security.
The meager savings in SS benefits is vastly offset by the expense of treating the significant health problems of those affected.
|
|
Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
|
|
The real expense of smoking is end of life health care. Smokers do not drop dead without incurring big bills. 90% of seniors medical care comes in the last months of their lives. Follow the money
I know a chief of staff at an LA hospital. He told me that one of the biggest impediments to reforming the system is the fact that so many doctors make so much money off dying people.
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
... is the fact that so many doctors make so much money off dying people.
Oh man. I feel like I just got punched in the gut.
My Mom died about a year ago. Both of my parents (step-dad is still with us) had a lawyer draw them up advanced directives clearly stating that when it was their time no heroic measures should be taken etc. I am entrusted to make the call.
So after several years of sliding into dementia, she had a brain hemorrhage which left her conscious but effectively gone. At the hospital my stepdad and I instructed that she be made comfortable with a hydrating IV and morphine. She had been clear that when she was dying she be let to die, not kept alive for another day or week or month.
I made my next daily visit and a nurse was feeding her with a spoon. I was told she swallowed a bit, which negated the terms of the directive. I was outraged and we moved her to a nursing care place which included hospice and palliative care. She was barely alive and again the hydration and morphine drip. She would slip away here in peace and comfort.
So I got a call at about 2AM a few days later informing me that her condition had become critical and she was being moved back to the hospital. I was stunned. They had pulled her out of her bed onto a gurney into an ambulance in the middle of the night as she was passing away. Good God! I imagined her being cold in the ER with doctors plugging crap into her. I gathered up my stepdad and we got there about 7AM. She was in a room hooked up to all sorts of stuff. IV's, tubes into her mouth. All sort of beeping things. She was desperately gasping and stared upward with her face in a grimace which reminded me of that Munch Painting "The Scream." I went to the nurses station. "WTF is going on here!!" The doctor who had overseen her care before she was moved acted astonished and moved immediately to get her back on morphine and fluids. She passed that evening.
My stepdad was crushed. Today he does not remember what happened there a year ago. His memory is sharp, he has repressed it.
Reading your comment leads me to re-think that whole episode. I knew at the time that the Dr was a partner in the care facility, but I'm not cynical enough to have been suspect of that arrangement. I assumed incompetence was the problem. Fact is they got their extra week of billing out of her. I've seen the bills. Scary sh#t.
I was all hot to take legal action, but my stepdad, being a wiser man than I, made it clear that he did not want to spend what time he has left fighting that battle.
Sorry for the OT, but Jon Beck's post just hit me hard.
|
|
BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
|
|
^^^sorry you had to go through that Ksolem, must have been gnarly.
Hope your mom is residing in peace now :)
|
|
Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
|
|
So how does one go about circumventing the "keep the patient alive at all costs" (and profits)?
Both my wife and I have the DNRs on file but have also heard too many stories of Health Care personnel ignoring those mandates.
I'm almost of the mind that when one gets to that point - hide. As in don't call an ambulance, don't go to the ER - just stay at home and ride it to the natural end.
Not to be flippant - but a bottle of Jack and a couple of bootlegged morphine tabs should grease the skids.
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
An old woman lies on her death bed. A doctor is trying to feed her through a tube down her throat.
The Priest walks in. "What are you doing? Can't you see she's dying?"
|
|
Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
|
|
So far, all the "Prolly's" appear to be coming from the RIGHT...
Makes sense.
Republicans want to be your Daddy.
Democrats want to be your Mommy.
Everybody else just wants to be treated like an adult and tell .Gov to step off.
|
|
Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
|
|
ive been trying to start smoking since I was eleven years old. It just won't stick.
Hey Ksolem,
That's hard. Thanks for sharing.
|
|
Binks
climber
Uranus
|
|
I used to enjoy a cigarrette or two from time to time. I still have one, very occasionally but something in my metabolism changed. They just taste awful to me most of the time. Fortunately, up here in Oregon, we can legally enjoy far better substances than nasty tobacco cigs.
|
|
| Messages 1 - 49 of total 49 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!