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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 27, 2016 - 05:19pm PT
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"SpaceX announced on Wednesday plans to send an unpiloted Dragon 2 Spacecraft to Mars as early as 2018 to demonstrate the technologies needed for landing large payloads on the planet--an absolute necessity for human exploration of our neighbor in the solar system." From http://spaceflight101.com/spacex-red-dragon-announcement
This will become the biggest (heaviest) spacecraft to land on the Red Planet. Aptly named "Red Dragon," the spacecraft is an expanded version of Spacex's Dragon 2 , man rated spacecraft originally designed for America's astronauts voyages to the ISS. The Red Dragon will land ~ 6.1 metric tons + fuel+ cargo on the planet, far larger than even the most ambitious NASA vehicles. The craft will not utilize any parachutes for Mars landing, relying instead on 8 Super Draco rocket engines to make a propulsive landing.
This mission is at the expense of SpaceX and the company receives no monetary compensation from the federal government, but will utilize the Deep Space Network for comms in return for a sharing of data with NASA.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 27, 2016 - 05:25pm PT
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Stooopid Americans throwing their money out into space.
All while millions and millions are suffering around the planet.
Mismanaged stoopid Americans .....
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Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
the pitch above you
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Apr 27, 2016 - 06:39pm PT
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I cannot let the irony of Werner Braun dissing a rocket go un-smirked upon.
OK... carry on.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Apr 27, 2016 - 06:44pm PT
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Too late
The Nazis have been there since 1940
They have colonized Mars already!!!
German Secret Societies Colonized Mars in 1940s
In his latest interview on Gaiam TV’s Cosmic Disclosure, whistleblower Corey Goode describes in detail the attempts by a secret German space program to establish bases on Mars during the Second World War era. He claims that during the subsequent colonizing effort, the Germans fought fierce territorial battles with resident Martian species that inhabited large lava tubes that ran throughout Mars subterranean regions.
Goode says that during the early 1940’s, while the Second World War was still being fought, German secret societies –Thule, Vril and Black Sun – had successfully established a base on the moon, and used that as a launching pad for missions to Mars. Travel time between the Moon and Mars was several hours for the Germans. Goode contrasted this with the contemporary secret space program which has cut this travel time down to a matter of minutes!
Goode describes information about the early German colonization events acquired from “smart glass pads” he had access to during his space service as an “intuitive empath” from 1987 to 2007. He says that German documents and photographs, detailing these Moon and Mars missions, were archived on the smart glass pads.
http://exopolitics.org/german-secret-societies-colonized-mars-in-1940s/
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2016 - 06:50pm PT
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The link in the OP has been corrected.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Apr 27, 2016 - 08:56pm PT
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here's the scientific method for raising money in action!
Predict what you might do in the future, to get money today.
(Just like he did with the cars.)
i think they need to throw in that we "need to" get rid of our nuclear waste or else "the planet is gonna die!" syndrome. Then their sure to get more TAX money!
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 27, 2016 - 08:59pm PT
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How did Klimmer post as Craig Fry?
Meanwhile stoopid murricans are climbing rocks when they could be saving baby ducks.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 27, 2016 - 09:03pm PT
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That's right save baby ducks.
Send fruitman to Mars as he's just a sterile robot anyways that can report
useless stupid data back into a database for future robots to overheat in .....
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2016 - 09:10pm PT
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HFCS-
Get in line---behind me!
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 28, 2016 - 01:16pm PT
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The "Red Dragon" name was specifically selected to honor the "Red Planet." A man-rated version is also undergoing hover testing of the propulsive landing system in anticipation of an upcoming "abort system test," where a special Falcon 9 first stage with just 3 engines will be aborted shortly after launch, and both booster and Falcon will land propulsively.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Apr 28, 2016 - 02:04pm PT
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Old McWerner had a farm
On the Red Planet far from harm
E-i-e-i-o
And on this farm you guys should know
His kept his ducks all in a row
E-i-e-i-o
One day he heard some nanny goats
He went outside to spread wild oats (gasp!)
E-i-e-i-o
healyje said please don't do that
My nanny goats will get too fat
E-i-e-i-o
Red Dragon said hey that's okay
Give me goat fat any day
E-i-e-i-o
Serioso, Rodger, I hope they'll have a cabin saved just for you!
Keep truckin', flyin', and climbin', you old goat!
--Ole Salty
edit: Red Dragon likes bacon, too!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 28, 2016 - 03:13pm PT
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healyje said please don't do that
My nanny goats will get too fat
E-i-e-i-o
Too late - porkers...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Apr 28, 2016 - 04:53pm PT
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This is so awesome. I saw the news as well, posted it on my Twitter. Rad!
This is like the moon mission all over, man! Taking a payload of colonization gear to Mars? Woot!!!
Joint venture by private SpaceX and NASA? Kick a$$$$!!
Elon Musk has earned my respect. And Werner Braun? C'mon!!! By venturing outward we gain a greater inner self-knowledge. man.
Nah, that's bullsh#t. But exploring and pushing boundaries like this does give us a greater understanding of lots of new things. And it's really cool.
Some guru once said, "Ya gotta have vision, man".
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 28, 2016 - 06:55pm PT
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Not to spray cold water over all this,
You all do know that we don't have any way of getting the crew back off Mars... so basically right now it's a one-way mission with no return.
The basic problem is getting off of Mars surface, and then getting from Mars back to Earth. The 80% of the total mission mass is fuel... The basic idea is the same as the Apollo missions, you keep the return fuel in orbit around Mars, but unlike the Moon, Mars' gravity requires a large fuel load to land, and to leave.
Right now there is no way of doing this... note that the lander mass is increased by the fuel required to return. This makes things harder... a lot harder.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_to_Stay
So it is entirely appropriate for SpaceX and others to propose sending people to Mars, one way, which is currently conceivable (assuming that the problems of radiation exposure is tractable, they aren't right now) but return is not in the cards. Probably the USG shouldn't be involved.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Apr 28, 2016 - 07:39pm PT
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but if it's going to happen (people to mars) it has to start with being able to send a payload there. And then a second and bigger. Eventually you have sent enough that you have the resources there to bring someone back, then you send the people.
or something to that effect. the end goal isn't travel to mars it's travel to and from.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Apr 28, 2016 - 08:19pm PT
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Earth is for pussies.
Real Ducks quack on Mars
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 28, 2016 - 10:38pm PT
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Ed-
You need to read the book The Case for Mars, by Dr. Robert Zubrin. There is absolutely no problem with the return, since the Martian atmosphere being primarily Carbon Dioxide can be converted into Methane by means of a very old and established synthesis: the Sabatier reaction. I don't know how to get subscripts and superscripts to work through the Super Topo system, but bear with me.
CO2 + 4 H2 ----> CH4 + 2 H20 ; the reaction is catalyzed by Raney Nickel or other noble metals, Ruthenium, if I recall. The reaction is exothermic and require we furnish Hydrogen brought from Earth. The water produced is subsequently electrolyzed to generate Oxygen (compressed and liquefied), and the Hydrogen recycled into the Sabatier Reaction. All the numbers in the above formulae are to be read as subscripts. This program, named Mars Direct, was proposed by Martin-Marietta to NASA in 1990, and was subsequently modified by an increase in scale. It's now the "official" NASA method for doing Mars. While at Martin-Marietta, Zubrin and his team of engineers built a pilot unit to carry out this chemistry under a NASA contract. The system operated at 93% efficiency, which was remarkable since none of the engineers building the thing were chem engineers or chemists. Overall the process is very efficient in the utilization of Hydrogen, since the mass is a very small proportion of the fuel and oxidizer produced. A kilogram of liquid Hydrogen contains 500 moles, which can through recycling of Hydrogen from the electrolyzed water, be converted to liquid Methane, a terrific propellant. Assuming complete conversion at 100% efficiency with no processing losses, that would result in the availability of 4 kilograms of Methane, plus 4 kilograms of Oxygen. Not only is return trip fuel and oxidizer become available, but also a source of breathable Oxygen, and drinking water.
The recent movie, The Martian, was heavily influenced by The Case for Mars, w/r to mission architecture.
The Red Dragon being sent by SpaceX is entirely robotic, and will be carrying mostly scientific experiments. I'll bet there's a small Sabatier reactor in the experiment package.
I can't recall the year, but Sabatier won the Nobel Prize for his discoveries, one of which is this reaction bearing his name.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Apr 29, 2016 - 12:57am PT
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Illustrating what you've outlined, BDC.
I'm an indifferent chemistry student who depended on his lab partner in HS, but I do understand this process.
http://www.helmeth.eu/index.php/technologies/methanation-process
A bit about Sabatier--
Professor Paul Sabatier who taught at the state college of sciences of Toulouse and Father Jean Baptiste Senderens, professor at the Institut Catholique de Toulouse at a time when state and private higher education were at war, and when the French republic voted the separation of Church and state, were able to go beyond the political events of the time to collaborate and publish an important body of scientific work about heterogeneous catalysis. Together they were awarded the Jecker Prize of the French Academy of Sciences. Partly thanks to that research Sabatier was awarded the chemistry Nobel Prize with Victor Grignard in 1912. Both Sabatier and Senderens were among the first promoters of what is called today “French positive secularism”.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/241120466_Paul_Sabatier_et_l'abbe_Jean_Baptiste_Senderens_temoins_lointains_d'une_laicite_positive
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Gunkie
Trad climber
Valles Marineris
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Apr 29, 2016 - 07:55am PT
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So to bring this thread back to a climbing discussion in the climbing forum...
Will sticky rubber be allowed in the 'lighter' gravity on Mars? Will EBs become valuable assets? Will grid bolting become 'de rigueur' for this new generation of Martian climbers? Does the YDS get replaced with the MDS (5.11 == M.3)?
And as far as a one-way trip, there are plenty of volunteers.
http://www.mars-one.com/
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 29, 2016 - 09:08am PT
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Elon Musk has postulated a price for moving to Mars at $500,000. Free return to Earth if you don't like it there.His design for a "Mars Colonial Transporter" is due to be revealed by year's end. I'll stick with my La Sportiva "Tradmasters."
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 29, 2016 - 09:14am PT
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Just for those who scoff at Dr. Robert Zubrin, I've provided his Bio and an abbreviated CV:
B.A., Mathematics; University of Rochester, 1974.
M.S. Nuclear Engineering; University of Washington, 1984.
M.S. Astronautical and Aeronautical Engineering; University of Washington, 1986.
Ph.D. Nuclear Engineering, University of Washington, 1992.
These are nor flaky or shabby credentials.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Apr 29, 2016 - 09:40am PT
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Let's get down to brass tacks.
Can SpaceX then move their corporate headquarters to Mars to avoid taxation in any country? Do they first have to disassociate with being incorporated with any country in USA, operating from datacenters floating in international waters before they land on Mars?
If the countries of Earth sign a treaty re: mineral rights or exploitation of extra-terrestrial resources, would corporations that exist outside the bounds of Earth countries be beholden to such laws? I suppose they would be beholden to the physical force of the countries that disagreed with their approach.
Will they own assets they lay eyes upon outside the range of the U.S. flag? Are they beholden to "taxation" to any country here for that? U.S. taxes individuals for income around the world, not sure about treatment for corporations and various tax treaties.
What happens when the U.S. says "all your base are mine?" Will they run to Russia or China for support (out of the frying pan and into the fire)? At what point will they make enough money to defend their assets on Earth against aggressor nations? What if a very rich company on earth sees this as an opportunity and buys them... then that bigger parent company has enough resources to fight off military incursions by other countries and protect the assets and income stream from Mars mining or tourism or space-based warfare?
Will this be the turning point where corporations shift from influencers/controllers of governments to direct peers/replacers of governments?
I haven't read too much sci-fi, but this particular period seems especially ripe for good fiction, exploring the power struggles as humans transition beyond Earthly limitations. Like the New World all over again.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 29, 2016 - 10:06am PT
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I'm sure that many of the technological issues for a flight to Mars, and even back from Mars, can be outlined and backed up with many good studies, and estimates.
If you want to design your own rocket engines you can even download design programs from the web e.g.
http://www.propulsion-analysis.com
A quick look at methane rocket fuels for launchers reveals that there are none with any actual operational record... see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_orbital_rocket_engines
though SpaceX and Blue Origin are both pursing these fuels, no one else is...
Launching such a mission has a lot to do with assessing the likelihood of successful completion, for most people (like me) that definition is sending and returning a flight crew.
Reviewing the unmanned missions,
http://mars.nasa.gov/programmissions/missions/log/
of 43 attempts, there have been 18 successful missions (with 2 more semi-successful), a 47% success rate... but we've been launching missions to Mars since 1960, have we gotten any better?
Perhaps slightly,
1960 - 0% - 2
1965 - 17% - 6
1970 - 50% - 4
1975 - 45% - 11
1980 - - 0
1985 - - 0
1990 - 0% - 2
1995 - 0% - 1
2000 - 29% - 7
2005 - 80% - 5
2010 - 100% - 1
2015 - 75% - 4
the 5-year period with the most missions launched, 1970-1975, had a 45% success rate. The next 5 year period was 1995-2000 with 7 launches and 29% success rate.
These are one-way missions, so for the purpose of argument we can assume the same success rate for the return, the 0.47 one-way probability becomes a 0.22 for the return.
One in five chance of making it back.
Now the complexity of a human mission is a lot greater than a robotic mission, the life-support is an important component. So the failure probability increases. Not only that, but there are considerable "objective" hazards (e.g. radiation) which we are just beginning to assess. The mitigation for these risks may be extremely difficult to engineer. For every increment of mass added, 4 times that mass in fuel must also be added.
While we can sit in our arm chairs and criticize an organization like NASA for not being bold enough, I don't think you could find a crew willing to take the current odds (as incomplete and as optimistic as they currently are).
And I am unaware of any private, commercial organization offering a "product/service" for which an 80% outcome is the death of the customer... do you?
Given this history, I fit a logistics curve to the data (by eye) with a 10 year characteristic time, the year that 0.99 probability (one-way) is achieved is 2043, this is of order the actual success rate of the Space Shuttle. With the return included, we hit 0.99 in 2050.
Once again, this is for robotic missions...
Given the complexity and the scale of these missions, 30 years to achieve a 99% success rate does not seem an unreasonable estimate.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 29, 2016 - 10:58am PT
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To address the concerns stated above:
The Mars Direct, or in it's NASA modified form, Mars Semi Direct, has a lot of built-in redundancy. The entire scheme depends on more than a "few days on the planet," or a "Footprints and a Flag" approach.
The original plan proposed in 1990 was a 4 astronaut team landing and staying on Mars until the next Holman Transfer window, which means a 6 month stay for purposes of doing geological and biological research.
The launch of 2 vehicles was proposed; first an Earth Return Vehicle to be sent some 6 months prior to launching a live crew. The ERV would proceed to manufacture the propellants for the return flight, and once refueling of the ERV completed, phase 2 of the mission undertaken--sending out the astronauts. When the astronaut-explorers arrive on Mars, there's already a fully-fueled ERV there waiting. Another ERV would be launched simultaneously with the manned Habitat spacecraft for a backup. During the 6 month planetary stay envisioned by mission planners, ERV #2 would refuel itself as a backup return system.
NASA subsequently modified the mission architecture to have a larger crew make the journey; last I heard the numbers were either 7 or 9. Additionally, a non return Habitat module was to be launched ahead of the manned module. This would assure adequate food, and a safe living environment for the crew being "in place" prior to astronaut launch. NASA also envisioned first placing an additional ERV return vehicle in Mars orbit as backup.
As the original Martin-Marietta engineering team had proposed the program, it would have reduced the cost of the original "90 Day Report" plan from $450 Billion by at least an order of magnitude. Musk and SpaceX are now estimating their version of Mars Semi Direct to cost around $20 Billion TOTAL. On an annualized budget, that amount is well within the NASA budget to accomplish over a 5-7 year term.
No one ever said this would be a "safe trip." There are those who enjoy living "on the edge," and most climbers are adrenelin junkies. This is a new Frontier, since there are none remaining here on Earth; there are no new continents to explore, no rivers to follow to their source, and damned few mountains w/o having had ascents. We sit here and wring our hands about risk--we stagnate and our cultures die. Instead of squabbling over the vanishing resources of a mature planet with endless wars and turmoil, let's do something I consider noble and uplifting for all mankind.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 29, 2016 - 11:21am PT
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We sit here and wring our hands about risk--we stagnate and our cultures die.
sending 4, 6, 9 people to Mars isn't going to matter very much...
as for accepting risk, you would never accept a climbing proposal where you had an "optimistic" 80% chance of dying.
Finally, the issues of radiation exposure are not trivial, and so far no mitigation scheme exists... sitting in a bunker for 6 months on Mars hiding from radiation exposure isn't as nobel as it sounds.
Musk has far less experience costing these projects than NASA has... and far less accountability.
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Gunkie
Trad climber
Valles Marineris
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Apr 29, 2016 - 11:35am PT
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as for accepting risk, you would never accept a climbing proposal where you had an "optimistic" 80% chance of dying.
That would depend, distinctly, on my station in life. But, then again, I'd probably not pass the psych exam.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 29, 2016 - 11:39am PT
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It seems that Musk has already been successful at reducing launch costs in the satellite business. He's no longer expending a $65 Million booster every launch; reusability is a major issue. Prices can come down dramatically when first stage reuse is possible. Two of the past satellite launches have recovered the rocket intact and propulsively landed--once on a launch pad at Canaveral, and the second--aboard OCISLY.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Apr 30, 2016 - 08:29am PT
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I'd imagine that Musk, SpaceX, with the Knowledge Base of NASA, can figure this out. Ed brings up many issues, but we're pretty good as overcoming issues (after a couple of mistakes).
Finding suitable people to spend 6-mos to a year on Mars doesn't seem like it would be too hard. They'd have to be the right types, or course.
It could take several years to get somebody back from Mars after we get them there, but it's be worth it. Imagine a base on Mars. An accomplishment in and of itself, and a launching point for so much more.
Question: Why not a lunar base first? Does Musk just want the glory of Mars?
Seems a lunar base would be a more logical fist step. Getting us 'stationed' and stabilized outside of Earths atmosphere on a firm, stable environment with raw materials readily available..
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 30, 2016 - 09:38am PT
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Imagine a base on Mars
I can, I just can't imagine a use-case for the mission that delivers enough value to justify it compared to other uses of those funds and resources. From where I sit the principal driver of such a mission is our cowboy mythology.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Apr 30, 2016 - 10:02am PT
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From where I sit the principal driver of such a mission is our cowboy mythology.
So what? There are always rewards in the end of such ventures. And those rewards tend to benefit the whole of our civilization, not just starving kids in Africa or fat cats on Wall St.
The whole freakin' civilization. Forever.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 30, 2016 - 10:16am PT
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We choose to go to mars...
The closest experience we have to this is the Apollo program. Granted things were different. At it's peak in 64-66 NASA's budget was 4% of the federal budget. That's a LOT of money. But it was a matter of national pride and security. What they did was remarkable.
on May 5, 1961, Alan Shepard became the first American in space, launched in a ballistic trajectory.
Kennedy proposed Apollo in a May 25, 1961 address to Congress.
John Glenn became the first American to orbit the Earth, on February 20, 1962.
On September 12, 1962, President Kennedy delivered his speech before a crowd of 35,000 people in the Rice football stadium. The most memorable and quoted portion of the speech comes in the middle:
Apollo 11 was July 16–24, 1969.
We set sail on this new sea because there is new knowledge to be gained, and new rights to be won, and they must be won and used for the progress of all people. For space science, like nuclear science and all technology, has no conscience of its own. Whether it will become a force for good or ill depends on man, and only if the United States occupies a position of pre-eminence can we help decide whether this new ocean will be a sea of peace or a new terrifying theater of war. I do not say that we should or will go unprotected against the hostile misuse of space any more than we go unprotected against the hostile use of land or sea, but I do say that space can be explored and mastered without feeding the fires of war, without repeating the mistakes that man has made in extending his writ around this globe of ours.
There is no strife, no prejudice, no national conflict in outer space as yet. Its hazards are hostile to us all. Its conquest deserves the best of all mankind, and its opportunity for peaceful cooperation may never come again. But why, some say, the Moon? Why choose this as our goal? And they may well ask, why climb the highest mountain? Why, 35 years ago, fly the Atlantic? Why does Rice play Texas?[5]
We choose to go to the Moon! ...[6] We choose to go to the Moon in this decade and do the other things,[7] not because they are easy, but because they are hard; because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one we intend to win ...[8]
In less than 10 years they went from just getting a man in space to landing a man on the moon and returning him to Earth.
Mars is exponentially harder but Apollo showed what humans could accomplish. We had no idea if/how we could pull it off. So many technologies we use today were developed for the program.
A Mars program would be similar. Once the goal is set you figure out how to accomplish it.
Plenty of people would make the ONE WAY trip to Mars right now. There are people who would sacrifice their lives to be the first person on Mars. So getting people to take a risky trip with a chance to return would be no problem. It's more the administrators allowing it than finding the people to do it.
But there will be lots of robotic missions first.
Musk has shown over an over he's capable of things that people thought not possible. When you have a visionary like that making executive decisions things happen a lot faster than the bureaucratic, publicly accountable ways of NASA.
It's going to be really interesting to see what happens.
My guess is we do send people to Mars but it will take 20-30 years or more.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 30, 2016 - 10:23am PT
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There are always rewards in the end of such ventures. And those rewards tend to benefit the whole of our civilization, not just starving kids in Africa or fat cats on Wall St.
aside from a demonstration of heavy lift rocket capability to shore up the concept of deterrence and the inevitability of mutually assured destruction...
name the "rewards" of the US and Soviet space programs on human civilization.
I'm all for Musk deciding to do whatever he decides to do on his own.. I'm even happy for him to have access to the NASA expertise... but I don't see how the USG (or any other "G") can justify the costs of such a mission based on the likely return-on-investment (ROI).
ALL of the science you could do on such a mission can be done less expensively and better in robotic missions (which also have a great ROI: the development of autonomous robots). The only "science" not addressed is that of human response to long term space flight.
But the sort of "toughness" required for humans is not similar to John Wayne's on screen persona... the "toughness" required would be to standup to the radiation exposure encountered during the entire mission, the trip out and back, and the time spent on the Martian surface.
We don't have an answer for this... pilgrims, except to send our radiation hardened mechanical agents (and even they are troubled by it).
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 30, 2016 - 11:14am PT
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the total cost of the project is $18B? over how many years? probably 10 to 20...
Americans' annual spending on their pets is $60B...
I like pets... and I don't mind spending to support NASA either...
The USG is investing in risky future technologies that the private sector cannot invest in. This includes the R&D (where the "D" here is considered crazy-ass "R" by most of the private sector) on a very broad spectrum of topics.
Something they should be doing.
no list of "rewards" for civilization yet?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Apr 30, 2016 - 12:32pm PT
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name the "rewards" of the US and Soviet space programs on human civilization.
Trick question?
NASA has invented all sorts of technology to solve the peculiar problems of space exploration. In the 1950s and early 1960s, it created the revolutionary three-axis stabilization control design that enables satellites to point their antennas, instruments and solar panels with precision. Since then, it's been such a prolific problem solver that about one in every 1,000 U.S. patents is granted to someone working on a NASA project [source: Rayl].
In fact, the NASA workforce is so ingenious that quite a few of its inventions are useful for those of us who stay on the ground. The agency even has a special administrative branch, the Technology Utilization Program, which focuses on helping companies turn the ideas behind space gadgetry into industrial and consumer innovations.
The list of inventions is certainly long, but if we have to single out a few favorites, these 10 would top the list. http://science.howstuffworks.com/innovation/inventions/top-5-nasa-inventions.htm
Insulation, memory-foam, scratch-resistant lenses, CAT scans, LEDs, infrared thermometers, efficient water filtration, etc...
It's a long list, you know this, Ed. What gives?
EDIT: saw this too: http://kearth101.cbslocal.com/2011/07/21/list-stuff-we-use-everyday-that-was-invented-from-the-space-program/
39.A possible end to water shortages
Research into using bacteria as a means to remove impurities and purify water is being still being undertaken by Nasa. The system makes use of scant resources by turning waste water from respiration, sweat and urine into drinkable liquid and it’s hoped that this could help poorer communities in developing countries.
C'mon!
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Apr 30, 2016 - 01:49pm PT
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name the "rewards" of the US and Soviet space programs on human civilization. what about that PEN which NASA spent so much on!
what about Vacuum technology? wasn't that a NASA thing I could be wrong but whatever.. anyways!
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 30, 2016 - 02:40pm PT
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One thing Musk does almost constantly with his innovative designs: he proves the axiom about decisions made by committees.
"A camel is a horse designed by a committee."
I choose supporting this undertaking for the same reasons expounded by Kennedy in his famous Rice University speech previously quoted here." We do it not because it is easy, but because it is hard."
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Apr 30, 2016 - 02:51pm PT
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." We do it not because it is easy, but because it is hard."
I thought that was a Bill Clinton quote.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 30, 2016 - 03:02pm PT
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Bluey-
The reasons for Mars are numerous: an atmosphere which moderates Cosmic ray radiation, a near 24 hour day making Earth-based plants capable of greenhouse growth; major resources in the necessary elements to support life; the CO2 atmosphere is capable of being converted into energy for a return flight, as well as energy to power rovers; and a far less harsh environment on a daily basis.
According to Dr. Zubrin, the energetics involved going to Mars are actually quite moderate. I haven't read the detailed math presented, but have on my own ordered an Orbital Mechanics textbook; I WILL understand the math.
Unlike Ed, who is a true academic, my approaches have always been industry-based; sometime rough-and-ready, but performance oriented. I'm really leaning toward placing a bet on Musk's SpaceX getting to Mars before NASA. I like the drive and determination, and not the bureaucratic procrastination.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 30, 2016 - 03:11pm PT
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Clinker-
I guess we're talking about "what's hard?" For Slick, there are lots of women involved! ;-)
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 30, 2016 - 03:57pm PT
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Lots of things that have benefited man have come from NASA and the Apollo program.
My favorite is the computer microchip: modern microchips descend from integrated circuits used in the Apollo Guidance Computer.
It's hard to calculate the return on investment. Some NASA boosters say it's as high a 7 to 1. But even if it's 2 to 1. It's probably better than the majority of public spending. Infrastructure and education probably have return. But lots of spending has no return.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 30, 2016 - 05:08pm PT
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Going to Mars is no longer a conceptual challenge but now is an engineering problem. My plant chemical engineer at the executive council meetings always had the same answer, when asked if he could build an XYZ system: sure, all it takes is time and money. That's exactly where we are now , w/r to Mars.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 30, 2016 - 06:26pm PT
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Maybe. Radiation shielding may also turn out to be more than a simple engineering problem depending on how much shielding mass is involved.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 30, 2016 - 09:06pm PT
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SpaceX returning the Falcon 9 to Hawthorne, CA as a yard ornament in front of their facility. This is one humongous rocket!
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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What a massive pain in the ass to move something that big so far over surface roads...
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JC Marin
Trad climber
CA
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How bout all them first ascents just waiting for us on mars...and maybe david bowie will be there...
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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More super duper PROGRESS in commercial space flight early this morning.
(1)
(2)
Three engine reentry successful landing... a first.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - May 6, 2016 - 07:58am PT
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To see the latest launch and first stage landing webcast, go to the SpaceX website:
http://www.spacex.com
This is a significant milestone in reducing the overall cost of space access. No more use it once and throw it away $65 Million rockets.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Will be interesting to see which launch will re-use one of the recovered stages.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - May 6, 2016 - 04:45pm PT
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Healyje-
I watched an interview a few weeks ago of Elon Musk, where he discussed offering a discount satellite insertion for $45 Million instead of the normal $65 Million, provided the booster was one previously used. Don't know if there have been any takers.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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I wonder what the actual cost is to re-use a rocket. Besides the fuel, that'd be same as the new one. What is the cost to render one of the used rockets re-useable? Can't be that much, relatively speaking.
Also, a used rocket may be MORE RELIABLE in many regards, than a new, un-tested one.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Yep. Kinda like 'burning it in'.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - May 7, 2016 - 06:57am PT
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The ESA (European Space Agency) and Roscosmos State Corporation of Russia have postponed the launch of their ExoMars mission from 2018 to 2020, due to contractor delays in construction of the planned rover and other science packages.
Who knows? Maybe Elon Musk will be there awaiting the arrival of the delayed rover and science mission?
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Who knows? Maybe Elon Musk will be there awaiting the arrival of the delayed rover and science mission?
Musketeers?
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - May 7, 2016 - 05:05pm PT
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SpaceX has scheduled a test of their Falcon Heavy rocket for later this year, in November. It consists of 3 Falcon 9 FT first stages strapped together, and will become the heaviest lift US rocket since Apollo V vehicle.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 18, 2016 - 09:18am PT
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Space Radiation Risks for Astronauts on Multiple International Space Station Missions
...
The IOM noted in their 2001 Safe Passage report [48] and re-affirming an earlier SSB report [49], “Until the radiation hazards to astronauts can be controlled or otherwise mitigated by physical shielding, a 1998 National Research Council report states, ‘long-duration space travel should be postponed (SSB and NRC, 1998)’. Even if an effective physical radiation shield is developed, it in no way diminishes the need for clinical study, including monitoring of crewmembers’ exposures, long-term medical follow-up, and the development of preventive medical treatments to make astronauts more resistant to deep space-induced radiation damage”. In reviewing the NASA PELs [1], which stated the career radiation limit of 3% Risk of Exposure Induced Death (%REID) at the 95% confidence level (CL), the NRC noted [10], “The committee strongly recommends that the permissible exposure limits specified in the current NASA radiation protection standards not be violated to meet engineering resources available at a particular level of funding.” These external safety recommendations to NASA [10], [48], [49] were focused on deep space missions, however it is shown in this report that similar concerns hold for multiple or long-term (1 year or longer) ISS missions especially for missions near solar minimum were dose-rates dominated by GCR can approach 1 mSv/day and about 2-fold higher than missions near solar maximum for similar ISS altitudes.
...
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 13, 2016 - 09:57pm PT
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According to Gwen Shotwell, the CEO of SpaceX, the first demonstration flight for the Falcon Heavy is scheduled for November. The Hawthorne, CA based company has already scheduled two more launches early in 2017 for already sold launches for geosynchronys satellites requiring heavy lift boosters.
In a separate interview, Elon Musk was asked whether he would be flying on one of the early trips to mars; he commented that "probably, if he could be certain SpaceX would survive if he got killed."
SpaceX is scheduled to launch Eutelsat 117WB on June 15 at 07:30 PDT; watch thte live launch in a SpaceX live webcast at http://www.spacex.com. This will be the third high energy launch in a 6 week time frame, and another first stage recovery is planned with landing on the autonomous remote drone ship named "Of course I still love you."
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 13, 2016 - 10:20pm PT
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Elon is smart guy, but his rationale and vision for Mars is way off base; ditto for all the folks who think there is any future alternative to Earth for humanity.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 13, 2016 - 11:01pm PT
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I'm selling! Check out my ebay listing for Io.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 14, 2016 - 07:42am PT
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Nobody will buy Io, healyje. Try selling either Ganymede or Callisto, as they aren't within Jupiter's intense radiation belt as are the one you're selling, along with Europa.
Yeah, nobody wants to go to Mars to colonize; after all that crazy Genoese weaver's son wanted to go westward and sail off the edge of the earth. What a nutcase; he belonged on Super Topo.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 14, 2016 - 07:48am PT
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healyje-
California should buy Europa and have Elon Musk move it to the state, since the moon has, according to NASA, more water than all on the earth. The figures being bandied about indicate an ice layer several kilometers deep, overlying a 100 km deep planetary ocean of liquid water. NASA has plans to send a surface probe sometime in the foreseeable future. The funding just isn't available to do an adequate surface survey.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 15, 2016 - 08:18am PT
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SpaceX unfortunately lost the first stage during the recovery attempt. The mission was successful at completing insertion of the payloads into geosynchronous transfer orbit; SpaceX gets paid.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 15, 2016 - 08:24am PT
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Yeah, unf Falcon 9 on landing suffered a RUD (rapid unscheduled disassembly).
But two out of three ain't bad. Chin up!
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 16, 2016 - 11:28am PT
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Robert Zubrin has suggested a means of mitigating the low gravity/microgravity issues by using centripetal acceleration of the spacecraft on a long tether to a burned out rocket stage, and generating artificial gravity equivalent to Earth's. Vision could be affected by slow retinal detachment under zero-g conditions, as well.
A year in space under ISS conditions would not be great for humans unless mitigating steps are taken, and longer interplanetary voyages are designed to incorporate trajectories for minimal travel times, i.e., Hohmann Transfer flight paths. This means conjunction class missions in contrast to opposition class.
There are also hormonal treatments available for bone loss: Calcitonin, which is well-documented in it's treatment efficacy for osteoporosis.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jun 16, 2016 - 12:37pm PT
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Hope they don't lose the black boxes.
Egyptian black box voice recorder found (not in Canada).
Could the data recorder be far behind? Only two weeks left on the batteries.
The committee added that although the black box had been damaged, a search vessel had managed to safely recover the memory unit, “which is the most important part of the recorder.”
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 16, 2016 - 04:21pm PT
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The 'effects' Kelly is referring to are only the most obvious ones and from a limited duration (a year). And those effects are undoubtedly just the tip of an iceberg of untowards impacts from being off-planet. It should be obvious millions of years of evolution have tailored us for this planet's ecology and - by definition - we can't live anywhere else. Want to colonize other planets and star systems? Send fungal and bacterial spores and wait.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 16, 2016 - 04:47pm PT
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It's really difficult to make much (scientific) sense from a press release. Living a year continuously in zero g environment is obviously not good for one's health. Both the Mars Direct plan advocated by Dr. Zubrin, and the NASA modified form include use of rotationally induced artificial gravity in order to mitigate the bone decalcification and loss of muscle mass resulting from lack thereof.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 16, 2016 - 05:18pm PT
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Falcon Heavy is still small compared to what he has in mind...
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jun 16, 2016 - 05:36pm PT
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The Airbus A320, which had 66 people aboard, crashed May 19 in the Mediterranean Sea on a flight from Paris to Cairo.
Today is June 16.
Maybe there are some problems here on Earth that should be worked on first.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 16, 2016 - 05:46pm PT
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I am certain that the obstacles we see today will be resolved... Just because we can't see a solution today, doesn't mean it won't be solved later.
I actually perceive it as a good thing. The more problems we encounter now, the less we'll have to deal with later.
We're on the same team Moose, we just play different positions
most of the time. Imo. Good post.
This should help solve the gravity-related problem...
What, running at 1 G is for pansies? okay turn it up to 1.5 G then.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 16, 2016 - 06:24pm PT
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The RUD (Rapid Unscheduled Disassembly) of the Falcon 9 first stage yesterday reawakened my desire to return to doing some hard science again. Apparently one of the 3 engines didn't deliver full thrust in the braking stage prior to landing. They were playing it very close with the remaining fuel onboard the vehicle, and the fuel densification of the RP-1 seems to be a limiting factor. RP-1 is simply rocket grade Kerosene, which solidifies or gels when chilled below -7 degrees Celsius. I believe that adding some synthetic hydrocarbons I have in mind could alleviate the gelling problem. Who knows? Maybe working on these problems could bring me out of retirement?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 16, 2016 - 09:36pm PT
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The RUD was simply a matter of running out of gas and as you say, the fuel load is definitely a function of densification. Seems like they'll need to come up with something a bit denser for a monster like the Mars Colonial Transporter.
I am certain that the obstacles we see today will be resolved.
Just because we can't see a solution today, doesn't mean it won't be solved later.
Except they aren't 'obstacles' and there are no 'solutions'.
From a cellular matrix level on up, our entire biological fabric is - parametrically speaking - exquisitely tuned with [biological] constants related to life on Earth. Those constants can't be 'tweaked' and there is no way to survive in the equation represented by another planet or an extended intra/inter-galactic voyage.
As has been pointed out, there is also no 'tech' or 'solutions' which will allow for the reduction of an ecology to a miniaturized, self-sustaining, closed-loop system.
The upshot is we can venture out over short distances for brief visits, but we will never successfully colonize anything at a distance further than supply logistics can regularly replenish (at enormous cost) or fading health will allow. Now, maybe there are things to learn that are worth dying for, but that will be the steady, unavoidable and unmitigatable price for extended human exploration in space.
And I grew up on scifi, space travel and science; it's why I got into microbiology, genetics, horticulture and software and I make my living as a technologist. But the combination of all those has taught me the beauty of life on Earth and the [systems] reality of how closely tuned we are to it. We fail to acknowledge that or deny it at our extreme peril.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 16, 2016 - 10:29pm PT
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The real key to making space travel happen, is reusability of the hardware, not having it all reside at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean. That's why I'm excited at the approach SpaceX has taken. The number of recovered first stage boosters now stands at 4, and the reliability of landing them should only increase. The problem is Enthalpy available for re-landing them before running out. The concept of fuel and oxidizer densification is a good one, which reduces the physical size (hence, weight) of the tankage required. SpaceX has announced that later versions of the Falcon 9 may use liquefied and densified methane instead of RP-1 Rocket Propellant grade Kerosene. Supercooled liquid Oxygen is the oxidizer in the fuel/oxidizer combination, and there is a large surplus of Oxygen available to ensure complete kerosene combustion. Things will only get better for the Falcon 9 system once the new methane rated Merlin engines become available. Recovery of these booster first stages costing $16 million a whack, is a step in the right direction. Mission fuel costs are at $200,000.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 16, 2016 - 10:31pm PT
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Could you elaborate on 'methane rated'?
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 16, 2016 - 10:37pm PT
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My understanding is, there are several small design changes required in order to enable regenerative cooling of the engine to be accomplished properly, along with modifications to the turbopumps feeding the fuel supply at different rates than RP-1. I'm sure there are different injector nozzles into the combustion chamber, as well. Methane also has a higher specific impulse than RP-1, which will result in even more thrust being available.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 16, 2016 - 10:42pm PT
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Can you list potential fuels / mixes by their [densified] energy (specific impulse?)
Seems like they'll need to do much better in the future.
I don't know squat about all this aspect of things...
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 16, 2016 - 11:07pm PT
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Of the non toxic fuels available:
#1: Liquid Hydrogen
#2: liquid methane
#3: RP-1
There are problems associated with using liquid Hydrogen, since it has an extremely low boiling point--super cryogenic; it also causes metal embrittlement. It is also not very dense and requires larger storage tnaks which are insulated. The best compromise fuel seems to be liquid methane
Elon Musk has been planning all along to use methane, since it is easily manufactured from the Carbon Dioxide Martian atmosphere. That's really the concept first proposed by Dr. Robert Zubrin in his book The Case for Mars, and was extensively studied at Lockheed-Martin in the early 1990s.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 16, 2016 - 11:12pm PT
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The Mars Colonial Transporter seems unfathomably large. They said they'll need a whole new pad and system for it - maybe Texas as Canaveral pads are too small. Can't imagine standing one up; hard to picture it as any sort of tilt-up job like the Falcon 9. Also, a launch escape system for a payload like that (100 people) would be an interesting affair.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 17, 2016 - 09:19am PT
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After healyje's question about various fuel possibilities, I dug out one of my very old Aeronautical Engineering textbooks; Definitions for the record:
Specific Impulse, I (subscript, sp), is defined as the"number of seconds a pound of propellant can deliver a pound of thrust. "Units then, are "seconds," or "s."
Thrust= (propellant mass flow) x (exhaust velocity) = T, expressed mC.
The higher the exhaust velocity, the more thrust can be derived from a given propellant mass flow.
Exhaust velocity may be determined by multiplying I (sub sp) by g, the Earth's gravitational constant (32 feet per second per second).
Specific impulse for various propellant combinations are: 450 s for Hydrogen/Oxygen, 200 s for Hydrazine/oxygen, and 350 s for RP-1 kerosene/oxygen. Methane/oxygen is around 400 s. These are low compared to Nuclear-thermal systems developed in the 1970s at the end of the Apollo program, of 900 s. Chemical propulsion is currently the only option available with sufficient thrust & specific impulse to accomplish deep space missions. Moving beyond Mars to the Asteroid belt, in deep space exploration, Nuclear Thermal must be exploited. The NERVA system developed in the 1960s had developed thrusts of 250,000 pounds (1.1 million Newtons), with a specific Impulse of 825 s, almost twice that of the best chemical powered rocket engines. NERVA:(Nuclear Engines Rocket Vehicle Application). NERVA type engines produce radioactive exhaust products, essentially discouraging their use for first stage of rockets; deep space is no problem.
More specific Impulse may be utilized in 2 ways: reduction of travel times, or increased payloads, or realistically, some combination thereof.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 17, 2016 - 09:30am PT
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As an addendum to my previous post, the increase in specific impulse gained by going from RP-1 kerosene to liquid methane will result in a 14% increase in performance by the Falcon 9 vehicles, allowing a higher recovery rate of the launch vehicles. This may be equated to 14% more burn time available, allowing for better deceleration on reentry of the atmosphere and landing.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 17, 2016 - 09:18pm PT
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For those interested in rocket launches: There is to be a launch of Blue Origin's New Shepard suborbital spaceship early this Sunday morning beginning at 06:45 PDT. This will be the 4th flight of the particular hardware, having landed successfully on 3 previous flights. The webcast, beginning at 09:45 EDT, and 06:45 PDT may be accessed at:
http://www.blueorigin.com
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 17, 2016 - 09:44pm PT
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Hell, it looked like a 2% bump would have successfully brought that baby home the other day - that close...
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 17, 2016 - 09:55pm PT
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Correct. If the RP-1 could be cooled down another 10 to 15 degrees C, to -17 to -22 degrees C, that would have made enough difference in fuel availability to stick the landing. Recover another $16 million booster!
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 20, 2016 - 07:10am PT
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HFCS-
It DOES resemble a phallus, though....but no jokes allowed.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 20, 2016 - 08:57am PT
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bdc, I don't know if you've followed Burt Rutan and SpaceShipOne over the years but the contrast between the two plans to get citizens to space is really something to watch and to think about. In hindsight particularly, clearly it seems Blue Origin is the more streamlined and safer approach and all things considered the better way.
I guess Burt Rutan retired in 2011 anyway. Black Sky: Race for Space is excellent documentary nonetheless. It sure fired me up back in 2006.
I wonder what Richard Branson is thinking about all these latest developments. I haven't been paying attention. He invested heavily in Rutan's operation.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 20, 2016 - 12:05pm PT
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If I were a betting man... I'd be betting heavily for Elon Musk and SpaceX to become the first private company to take humans to space. The Dragon 2 is scheduled for test flights in early 2017, with astronauts to the ISS in 2018. I also wouldn't be betting against Blue Origin; they are highly secretive w/r their timeline for suborbital tourist junkets to space above the Karman line.
I've already seen the Earth's curvature from an Air Force jet flying at nearly 50,000 feet.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 20, 2016 - 04:04pm PT
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Yeah, I'm ready to break through the Karman line!
I wonder how soon their projecting first customer launches after such amazing success so far? and the price tag? for 10 minutes of such fun?
I'll have to look into it. Sure was pretty though start to finish.
..
Interesting:
"Due to atmospheric drag, the lowest altitude at which an object in a circular orbit can complete at least one full revolution without propulsion is approximately 150 km (90 mi), whereas an object can maintain an elliptical orbit with perigee as low as about 130 km (80 mi) with propulsion."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%A1rm%C3%A1n_line
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 21, 2016 - 07:02am PT
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The most recent SpaceX satellite launch was successful, but the landing was unsuccessful due to...Liquid Oxygen (LOX) depletion in the last few seconds.
https://youtu.be/p5_hvVbxAAo
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