Discussion Topic |
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john hansen
climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 30, 2016 - 09:31pm PT
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Wonder what they used?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Mar 30, 2016 - 09:35pm PT
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Munter hitch with a swami belt and no leg loops.
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cotuclimber
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Mar 30, 2016 - 09:36pm PT
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Well that's random.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
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Mar 30, 2016 - 09:38pm PT
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They swapped leads.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Mar 30, 2016 - 09:48pm PT
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DMT, that's what Yerian said....
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Mar 30, 2016 - 10:09pm PT
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DMT, we are working on a book together and this came up so as they say, it's from the horses mouth. :)
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Mar 31, 2016 - 12:46am PT
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Interesting they were not hip belaying.
Is your book limited to the BY or more inclusive?
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Mar 31, 2016 - 01:43am PT
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Munter hitch with a . . . . . .
. . . . . Chouinard Pearabiner screw-gate carabiner?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Mar 31, 2016 - 06:55am PT
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What Lynne said is what Dave mentioned to me. Though he had a story of Bachar showing up one day with leg loops, and taking a ginormous fall that Dave caught on a swami w/o Leg loops😎
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Mar 31, 2016 - 07:24am PT
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Great question, really. Gotta be on a pear shaped biner right? The nerd in me wants to know...
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slabbo
Trad climber
colo south
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Mar 31, 2016 - 07:34am PT
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I don't think the Chouinard pearabiner was out in '81 ?
i know when i failed on BY it was swami and a sticht plate !
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Mar 31, 2016 - 07:56am PT
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Yerian says it was a big D shaped,screwgate, European, but doesn't remember the name.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Mar 31, 2016 - 08:20am PT
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I thought I was the only guy who likes the Munther Hitch.
I would have guessed hip belay. Because if you fall on that route, what difference does it make?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Mar 31, 2016 - 11:02am PT
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In 1981 Bachar was in Europe and did Chasin' the Train prior to the BY.
Pretty sure Lechlinski was with him for that.
When they came back, they were all about the Munter hitch.
For a while, a bunch of us adopted it.
Somebody, Mari I think, made up this lore about "Freddy Munter".
We were always making up singsong images and crazy parables about mundane stuff, like the Munter hitch ...
Mike also brought back a pair of leg loops from that trip.
Leg loops! Sacrilege.
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Gunkie
Trad climber
Valles Marineris
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Mar 31, 2016 - 11:18am PT
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Always liked the simplicity of the Munter Hitch. I actually wore grooves in a couple of locking pear 'biners using it. Also belayed with double ropes using munter hitches; but what a PITA.
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slabbo
Trad climber
colo south
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Mar 31, 2016 - 02:52pm PT
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I remember my first Valley visit and my belayer was " got you bomber on a Munter" It looked like a clove hitch that he screwed up,,I didn't want to fall off
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Tom Patterson
Trad climber
Seattle
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Mar 31, 2016 - 03:14pm PT
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I love obscure questions like this.
Edit: Not being facetious, either.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Mar 31, 2016 - 05:56pm PT
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Peace
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 31, 2016 - 06:15pm PT
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Munter hitch twists the rope like sh!t.
That's it's biggest con.
But I used it for years too.
But the twist is heinous ..
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Mar 31, 2016 - 09:26pm PT
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But the twist is heinous ..
But I'd bet WB is old enough to know the twist...
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 31, 2016 - 10:29pm PT
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I belayed with a Munter hitch starting in the mid-1970s.
It works fine with many types of locking biners.
I used it on ice climbs, walls, and when I thought there was a well above average chance my partner would fall.
Yep, managing the twists was a hassle.
Eventually in the 1990s one of my partners got tired of me shortroping him and bought me an ATC. :-)
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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^Ditto.
By 1987, I was still loath to climb with leg loops, but totally over using a Munter.
That same year, my clients for The Nose were these thoroughbred Italian Alpine guides from Cervinia. I was using a DMM brake plate and they used the Munter. They did a lot of belaying. I never saw any twists! Those guys were like magicians with the ropes!
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cintune
climber
Colorado School of Mimes
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Add a second bight to the munter and it takes out the twists as it goes:
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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^^^^^^ No WAY! ;) That looks cool.....
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Cintune, no way ! ! I to say ditto!- that looks 'twisted', er un- twisted. . . .
Now to find someone to try it on. . That's what wives are for right?
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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All forgetful people, like me, should know the munter. It helps when you forget you belay device in the car, backpack, or at the belay.
That super munter looks cool but seems like it would be hard to feed rope
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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That super Super Munter may well be the knott that Giuliano used on The Nose.
I'm vague on it, but I'm remembering that he threw an extra twist into it.
It looked too complicated for me to remember!
 And, yes Walter, their room and catering tab at the Ahwahnee was $60,000!
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slabbo
Trad climber
colo south
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I switched to a harness only when the FiSH Skin belt came out..even stylin' I failed on BY
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cintune
climber
Colorado School of Mimes
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That super munter looks cool but seems like it would be hard to feed rope
It does add a little more friction, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. That pic also shows the brake strand coming out the gate side, which is obviously not a best practice.
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hooblie
climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
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their room and catering tab at the Ahwahnee was $60,000!
nothing but munter on that account alone! but yes i muntered eddie b. during his flawless, no fanfare ascent in '85?
must have been cuz i had retired the only device i ever used, the springy stitch well before that. there, i sprayed
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Freddie Munter says: always spring for a nutritious breakfast before a big adventure!
[Edit] oh, THAT catering ... You mean, Walter, the summit festivities provided by Messick and Carter!
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hooblie
climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
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yes, i'll write it up in this space later today.
~~~~
ok. here you go:
for context purposes, ed and i were steady partners for three seasons in the late seventies marching through the elevens, swinging leads, style by the book but for the one time i down climbed back to a nut and in a panic grabbed it. didn't lower off and pull the rope, i carried on. the shame came.
ed and chappy returned from montana with a pretty vivid tale of their ice climb there and it broke our streak, i went to montana. i kicked a few steps, stepped into a few turns, hauled a few sacks up alpine walls and stayed strong by latching wyoming pipe in the derrick, and delivering furniture for an interior designer in alaska.
seven years later i came over tioga pass on a trip from east to west and looked up ed at the mountaineering school looking to park overnight.
ed was looking good. he talked of fast twitch muscles, power vs. strength. all new to me. hanging from a door casing, alternating one-arms, in perfect control he spoke these words: "glad you're here, tomorrow off, route i want to do, perfect partner for this, just belay ..." (meaning no peer dynamic, you'll be gone next day ...) after ten perfect reps he dropped off, and i was signed on, though i had found that each one arm was successively more deflating to watch. in my day i've pulled just one. it required about six frog kicks and my arm hurt for a week. clearly, training changed things.
one of us musta had shoes for me. on the approach the route name was mentioned. i thought cool, those guys were friends ... AND THAT'S ALL I KNEW
he could have diverted to something else and i would have followed along none the wiser, i literally associated nothing with bachar-yerian except the image of those two guys, and that (years later to be let in on the irony) is the only thing that makes this a story.
if there was drama, or back story or any of that it was entirely in ed's at the time inscrutable head. at the base, i stacked the rope, payed it out as he went up. same as the old days!
belaying on pitch two i began to get the picture that this was more than just doing a friend a favor and hitching a ride. but everything was going fine so what would be the point of breaking the beautiful silence. behind his poker face there was nothing to hide, the situation was entirely in hand.
once i started following pitch two, some clarity came to me that i was engaged in some tenuous sh#t. i had spent a career looking askance at chalk, reserving the right to dabble, so saying little about it. now every little nuance of it left behind on nubbins took on great meaning.
i got off each hold in the nick of time. nothing required incredible strength but i'd never experienced such a sustained case of urgency. without little white clues the time spent solving the sequences would have taken me down.
i've followed pitches and arrived at the belay with eyebrows raised before. at the top of the b-y, though i never weighted the rope i exhibited the composure of a wet hen. it took away my feeling of belonging to the group, that in seven years of doing other stuff i had been left behind.
ed was smiley content, i remained rattled. i still had no context, no route rep, no solace. i drove away feeling i'd lost my sport. i had engaged in other things but if stuff like the b-y was what it would have taken to keep up, i wouldn't have made it.
only here on the forum did i put it together that the b-y was kind of badass. totally didn't know about ed's other ascent. proud of him, stoked really, that he sent after that whipper. can only guess that our (his) ascent was a clean-up chore, and it totally fits that he didn't go around saying "a guy came thru and i cleaned that up." more likely he relished the chance to lead it straight through journeyman style with no hullabaloo, which he certainly did.
update your early ascent list clint, it happened. him with me, private like we liked it. rick hooven
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WBraun
climber
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Tom Higgins using a jumar for self belay on a solo attempt.
Holy sh!t ... LOL.
You take a fall on one of those weak jumars and/or it will cut the rope or break the jumar itself.
Ballsy ......
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Jon Clark
climber
philadelphia
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I may be misinterpreting it, but it's interesting to hear up thread that Bachar took his fall without the leg loops. I'd be curious to hear more about that. In his Alpinist article on the BY he talks about using the leg loops to facilitate the hook drilling. As far as I know he drilled the second bolt on the first pitch and the three lead bolts on the second pitch while hanging from a hook. It'd be likely that he'd have been wearing leg loops for those pitches. He took his fall on the second pitch before the third lead bolt was drilled.
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marty(r)
climber
beneath the valley of ultravegans
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Rick, that was superb!
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Great story, Rick - thanks for sharing!
Steady climbing partners for 3 years is pretty awesome.
Even better that you could get back together after having gone
different paths, and get right onto a next-level climb.
(I updated the list, too).
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Jon Clark
climber
philadelphia
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Awesome story Rick, thanks for posting that.
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dee ee
Mountain climber
Of THIS World (Planet Earth)
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I too was surprised it wasn't a hip belay.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Dynamite tale Hooblie.
It's highly likely you are the only person to climb that route who didn't know what it was!
it took away my feeling of belonging to the group, that in seven years of doing other stuff i had been left behind Most of the rest of us, who HAD been climbing diligently for those seven years, felt left behind, too.
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hooblie
climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
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easy now, y'all are too kind ... and keyed in on ropes.
i guess there's no take backs on supertopo. i must remain calm
in the face of near certainty that the truth will be revealed
about my one arm, and our jolly romp on lembert
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Hooblie - you are such an excellent writer! Thanks for sharing that. While I've never climbed the B-Y, many of your phrases resonate with me. I especially like 'climbing with sense of urgency' (which usually does me in and leads to some tears) and 'composure of a wet hen' (which is generally in conjunction with the wet hen). BRAVO!
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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+3, is that how that works?
What I mean is - great write up. . .
see the man, the author in the
"Who the hell are you people?... Supertopoan Pictures..." Thread,
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AE
climber
Boulder, CO
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The Munter still holds a unique middle path in the spectrum of friction imparted by various methods; I recall most slot types descended from Sticht plates are to the mild braking end, requiring competent belay technique to apply adequate force to catch falls, versus all "auto locking" types akin to GriGris, either complicated or by virtue of sinuous rope passages that realign to lock when the rope is tensioned. The Munter's force curve lies in between the two extremes, and except for the damn rope twist and some feeding difficulties, just might represent the happy medium best choice for actually catching random falls beyond the gym or sport crag.
That doubled Munter looks interesting, but can't imagine that not really making easy payout next to impossible; it also likely increases the catch load to the point you may as well use a lockoff-type unit and get easy feeding as well. The best aspect overall for the Munter is it is always available as a backup if you have only a locking biner to work with.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Great Story.......
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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not that this has anything to do with the Bachar-Yerian directly...
climbing with John that last summer at the Great Western Power Co. gym in Oakland before his slide show there, he used a Munter Hitch and was unchallenged by the gym authorities. At that time (and maybe still) you supplied your own device, and JB hadn't brought one, he did have a locking 'binner. I thought it hilarious that his celebrity bubble was strong enough to deflect the usual injunctions defining "safe" behavior.
He also borrowed a rope to lead a route, belayed by me... the loaner of the rope was thrilled to have JB climb on it... and once again, though neither I nor JB had been "cleared" to lead (or lead belay), no one objected (at least not to us). I did use a belay device, however.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Never used the super munter, but it looks way complicated and hard to feed rope and take in slack. Can you 'splain it Lucy?
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sangoma
Trad climber
south africa
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Tryed the SuperMunter the other day , works OK one must keep it dressed as it flips over (two times) when one changes from feeding out rope to pulling in rope. Otherwise the loops get ontop of each other and tend to jam up a bit.
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Lasti
Trad climber
Budapest
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Apr 12, 2016 - 02:48am PT
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Great stories all. Though the BY secret ascent of 85 is more in line with the general direction of this topic, am I the only one really interested in the Tarbuster-Walleye dialogue regarding catering. After blowing 60 grand at the Ahwahnee, what did they do to top that?
In other news I really like the munter's simplicity but hate the twistage, a point that was driven home by the end of a 150 foot free-hanging rap off half ropes using munter hitches (partner and I forgot belay devices). After the nausea subsided, the tangled birdsnest of ropes was a sight to behold.
Lasti
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 12, 2016 - 09:45am PT
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Ha ha.
Okay, Lasti, more mundane thread drift, loosely associated with the SuperMunter which our Italian clients used with polished aplomb on The Nose.
The patron of our ascent, Inge Vogle, was an heiress connected to the Werner Von Braun Huntsville Alabama WWII rocket program. She hailed from Switzerland at the time of our climb, in 1987. She really, really wanted to meet us on the summit of El Capitan in a helicopter and couldn't understand why the Park service wouldn't allow it!
So, instead of using the East Ledges, we walked out to Tamarack to a meet Inge at her rented motorhome stocked with a feast including limitless bottles of Italian Barolo and Far Niente Chardonnay. This was the first time YMS conducted a guided ascent of El Capitan. We did it in two parties of two. The other guide was Doug Nidever. Our patron had rooms kept for Doug and me in the Ahwahnee the entire time we were on the wall, just in case we came down early.
She also rented the Queen's Suite on the top floor of the Ahwahnee, so we could dine there in private. (I think that is all of the seventh floor). She didn't like the dress code requirements for eating down in the public dining room so eventually just rented out the entire Basket Room for our private lunches and dinners, which grew to include many Yosemite locals.
Our wall food was mostly cooked by the Ahwahnee and we filled zip lock bags from seven silver trays of food prepared by the hotel, all laid out for us on a long table up on the seventh floor. It was May, and the weather was cool and we climbed through storms and even some snow, which the Italians liked!
I've never done a TR on this because I only have half of the pictures.
Maybe I could spin this into something worthy of an article for Alpinist, if I get more pictures.
I recently Googled my client, Giuliano Trucco, and see that he appears happy and healthy and still skiing (and probably climbing) in Cervinia.
Doug's client,Walter Cazzanelli, is also present in the link below.
I have a friend who speaks fluent Italian and could probably reconnect me with those guys. Better do it while we are all still alive!
Le Guide Alpine del Cervino:
http://www.guidedelcervino.com/content.asp?ID=2
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Apr 12, 2016 - 12:26pm PT
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Lasti, just thinking about you the other day. Hope all is well. I have you to thank for spending New Year's Eve on the French Riviera. Cheers, Lynne
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