Ask a Christian (way OT)

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limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 28, 2016 - 05:19pm PT

I hate to start an OT thread but it's a slow week at work and I usually hear and read a lot of misconceptions around the holidays. So, whether you're a Christian or anything else, if you're wondering something about those weirdos who believe in Jesus, feel free to ask (or just ignore an annoying thread). We can both kill some time and maybe even learn something about each other.

PS. I don't get offended, so no rules.

disclaimer: I obviously don't have all the answers so I'll preface everything with "I believe" because I may be wrong and I don't speak for all Christians

Mungeclimber

Trad climber

Nothing creative to say

Mar 28, 2016 - 05:28pm PT

What is the best most cohesive logical argument for the existence of god?

Ontological?
Quantity of faithful?
Cartesian?

Lurkingtard

climber

Mar 28, 2016 - 05:28pm PT

God. Do as I say not as I do.

He knocked up some dudes wife.

How is that cool?

skcreidc

Social climber

SD, CA

Mar 28, 2016 - 05:32pm PT

disclaimer: I obviously don't have all the answers

It's always good to start on common ground

StahlBro

Trad climber

San Diego, CA

Mar 28, 2016 - 05:38pm PT

I'll play. Who do you consider Christians? Quakers? Catholics? Episcopalian's? Baptist's?
All of the above?

Would the Big J be cool if some wanker retro-bolted his signature FA?

Dapper Dan

Trad climber

Redwood City

Mar 28, 2016 - 05:39pm PT

If God created human life, and if God is all knowing, if he knows every decision we will ever make , why does he create people who he knows will not choose him as their God ?

Why does God create human life that is destined for eternity in hell?

GDavis

Social climber

SOL CAL

Mar 28, 2016 - 05:45pm PT

How do you make sense with the reality thatyou are Christian by your culture and geographic location? Is it that you were lucky to be born into the "correct" religion, or are all religions true so everyone who follows religion follows truth?

This was one of the big failure points when I was younger - had I been born in India I would be following the multi armed goddess shiva and would be righteous in my nurtured choice rather than have a truly fair stab at exploring all ideologies as equals.

Were you raised a Christian, or did you come across it? Why is it that you've kept with it? Have you practiced other religions?

bluering

Trad climber

Santa Clara, CA

Mar 28, 2016 - 05:56pm PT

If God created human life, and if God is all knowing, if he knows every decision we will ever make , why does he create people who he knows will not choose him as their God ?

He creates our souls, and blesses us with that gift. What we do with it is largely up to us. We can embrace it or reject it and walk away from God.

Reilly

Mountain climber

The Other Monrovia- CA

Mar 28, 2016 - 06:03pm PT

This is really about the fact that yer own witch doctor cure of the poison
oak didn't work and now you need real help, right?

Lurkingtard

climber

Mar 28, 2016 - 06:06pm PT

He creates our souls, and blesses us with that gift. What we do with it is largely up to us. We can embrace it or reject it and walk away from God.

I'm sure you're making him proud.

HermitMaster

Social climber

my abode

Mar 28, 2016 - 06:10pm PT

That's only frightening for humans.

Check your dogma. He was human. It's kinda' the point.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Mar 28, 2016 - 06:13pm PT

People of different religions or those of no religion do not learn from each other....there is an uncrossable divide.

HermitMaster

Social climber

my abode

Mar 28, 2016 - 06:20pm PT

People of different religions or those of no religion do not learn from each other....there is an uncrossable divide.

Donini has met all of them so he is an expert....

But really, only he is wise enough to know it all....

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Mar 28, 2016 - 06:27pm PT

Oh pray tell...a cursory examination of history shows a distinct lack of good will between different religions. If you have "faith" that your's is the ONE TRUE religion discussion is not an option. Faith is not about reason, logic or evidence....things that promote discussion.

SteveW

Trad climber

The state of confusion

Mar 28, 2016 - 06:46pm PT

Dog is my co-pilot.

WBraun

climber

Mar 28, 2016 - 06:48pm PT

Then there is this ????? WTF is this ????

http://babylonbee.com/news/mountain-climber-recovering-after-decision-to-let-go-and-let-god/

Medfight never goes to Mariposa hospital especially with this kind of so called injuries.

With that kind of fall you'd be dead?

Did this really happen?????????????

grover

climber

Castlegar BC

Mar 28, 2016 - 06:54pm PT

If god is so powerful, can he put up a route so hard
that even he can't pull off a red point?

WBraun

climber

Mar 28, 2016 - 06:56pm PT

News Satire, .... sh!t !!!

I've been trolled !!!!!!

And 0wned!!!!

LOL ....

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Mar 28, 2016 - 07:05pm PT

Man created God in his own image

Norton

Social climber

Mar 28, 2016 - 07:10pm PT

the babylonbee.com is a "onion" type website, satirical of christians

http://sharperiron.org/filings/030816/31834

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Mar 28, 2016 - 07:16pm PT

Any websites satyrical of christians?

zBrown

Ice climber

Mar 28, 2016 - 07:16pm PT

I must agree. Take, for example, Fletcher Christian and Captain Bligh.

WBraun

climber

Mar 28, 2016 - 07:21pm PT

I never believed that news article to begin with.

Something like that happening here would make the switchboard light up and all red flags go on high .....

looks easy from here

climber

Ben Lomond, CA

Mar 28, 2016 - 07:35pm PT

What's the first route you'd climb in the seki back country if you haven't climbed there before?

Thirty-some posts in and the first response is still the most interesting. :)

Fritz

Trad climber

Choss Creek, ID

Mar 28, 2016 - 07:51pm PT

The Christians on ST should be able to bounce this up to easily 1000 posts, if we doubters keep giving them reasons to preach at us.

Sigh.

Ghost

climber

A long way from where I started

Mar 28, 2016 - 08:08pm PT

Son of God? What is the Trinity then?

After all the time I've been posting here, you still have to ask that?

Fat Dad

Trad climber

Los Angeles, CA

Mar 28, 2016 - 08:42pm PT

^^^
Seriously.

I disagree that people of faith do not or cannot learn from each other. History, with its many examples of war, etc., because of religion, is not because of religion. It is because of people using religion as a proxy for political power. Duh. I thought you people fancied yourselves as intelligent.

Flip Flop

climber

Earth Planet, Universe

Mar 28, 2016 - 08:49pm PT

Can God end hell?

Ghost

climber

A long way from where I started

Mar 28, 2016 - 08:57pm PT

More from the Babylon Bee (http://babylonbee.com/news/local-mans-drinking-problem-still-successfully-disguised-as-craft-beer-hobby/);

Local Man’s Drinking Problem Still Successfully Disguised As Craft Beer Hobby
March 24, 2016

FRANKLIN, MA—Unable to hide his surprise and delight about the fact, local man Kevin Maxwell confirmed Thursday that his drinking problem is still successfully disguised as a craft beer hobby.

“Ten years ago I wouldn’t have had this opportunity,” Maxwell noted to sources. “But we live in a special time, when a guy—and not just any guy, but a Christian guy embedded in a local church body—can have a serious, ongoing drinking problem, and can successfully hide it behind the guise of a craft beer hobby he shares with his brothers and sisters in Christ.”

Maxwell further explained that while he drinks nearly every day and is technically probably an alcoholic, in his church he’s playfully known as a “beer snob.” In fact, one of the many places he enjoys imbibing is at a local bar during regular get-togethers with fellow church members, during which they drink expensive, high-alcohol-content beer while discussing a variety of topics like theology, sports, politics, and expensive, high-alcohol-content beer.

“It’s really something. If I were drinking Natty Ice or Five O’clock Vodka like I drink microbrews, my pastor would probably be staging an intervention. But because I call myself a ‘beer enthusiast’ and I drink Imperial IPAs and Vanilla Stouts, he’s texting me for beer recommendations.”

“How long will this last? I don’t know,” he added. “But one thing’s for sure—my drinking problem and I are going to ride this convenient wave of delicious craft beer as long as it lets us.”

grover

climber

Castlegar BC

Mar 28, 2016 - 09:14pm PT

mouse from merced

Trad climber

The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.

Mar 28, 2016 - 10:21pm PT

Dogma is a bitch.

Oh, sorry, Alex. This is supposed to be a question.

Dogma's a bitch, ain't it?

That's a "rhetorical question," LC.

No answer needed.

And it can be taken two ways, too.

So it's really a bitch, ain't it?

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Topic Author's Reply - Mar 28, 2016 - 10:22pm PT

Wow, sorry about the backlog! I shouldn't have posted this right before going to dinner.

I'll preface all responses with "I believe" because stating anything as fact is kind of presumptuous and I'm not "all Christians."

What's the first route you'd climb in the seki back country if you haven't climbed there before?

I believe I'd climb the south face of Hamilton Dome. It's a route I haven't even climbed but I trust the opinions of the guys who say it's amazing!

What is the best most cohesive logical argument for the existence of god?

Ontological?
Quantity of faithful?
Cartesian?

I believe it's a combination of many different areas of study. Or at least that's how I came to the conclusion. And I honestly don't know the exact tenants of each of those arguments you posted :) Maybe something more specific?

Jesus is god, right?

So what's the big deal about dying on the cross?

That's only frightening for humans.

I believe that as it fits into the whole story it's very telling about the character of God. A system where humans should, but cannot, pay for their sins is trumped by sacrificing himself for all of us. Suffering and dying for people who betray you is a great example of love. (John 3:16)

I'll play. Who do you consider Christians? Quakers? Catholics? Episcopalian's? Baptist's?
All of the above?

Would the Big J be cool if some wanker retro-bolted his signature FA?

I believe a Christian is someone who has faith in Jesus in their heart and has confessed it with their mouth. (Romans 10:9) I also believe that JC would be cool with a retrobolt of his route but would not retrobolt someone else's route. (Luke 6:31)

I believe that God created humans and angels for loving relationships and you cannot have love or a relationship without free will. The rest seems to follow. (Revelation 4:11, 3:20)

How do you make sense with the reality that you are Christian by your culture and geographic location? Is it that you were lucky to be born into the "correct" religion, or are all religions true so everyone who follows religion follows truth?

This was one of the big failure points when I was younger - had I been born in India I would be following the multi armed goddess shiva and would be righteous in my nurtured choice rather than have a truly fair stab at exploring all ideologies as equals.

Were you raised a Christian, or did you come across it? Why is it that you've kept with it? Have you practiced other religions?

I believe this is a great question and I hope everyone, regardless of their beliefs, considers it. First, I was raised in a Christian household but worried that what you're saying here might be the case. I read a lot about other religions and even majored in Ecology & Evolution to find out about other possibilities. I was not satisfied, but explaining this in detail is a different question.

Let's say you go under the assumption that there is some sort of God/Gods/Spirits, why do I choose faith in Jesus Christ? I'll try to summarize but it will be so brief that it will probably raise more questions than it answers:
-Inclusivism Some religions teach that all religions are true and that they are all paths to God. But, some religions teach that there is only one way to God so they can't logically both be true as they are mutually exclusive. So "all religions are true" is out because they could all be wrong, but they couldn't all be right.
-Nature of God Every other religion I looked at, outside of the ones based on the first five books of the bible, teach about gods that are at odds with humans and humans are constantly trying to avoid their wrath. None of them teach about the love of God and so I don't know why they would even tolerate humans (like Greek Gods and many Native American beliefs, etc...) They teach that humans try to reach up to God, but they don't teach of a God that reaches down to humans. This doesn't make sense to me. Christianity teaches a reason for creation.
-Documentation The bible (specifically the new testament) is the only reliable documentation of God making proclamations and backing them up with observed actions.
-Nature of Jesus Not many people who read about it believe that Jesus (the human) didn't exist, and most acknowledge that he was a good person. He was either good, crazy, or a liar. I don't think he could be good AND crazy or good AND a liar.
-Statistics The odds of someone fulfilling all 48 prophesies told in the old testament is 1 in 10^157. Jesus did and that means something to me.
-Faking the Resurrection People who had seen Jesus went to their death defending what they saw. It is hard for me to believe that all of the apostles would have died for a lie. And if it was made up the authors would probably not have made themselves out to be cowards.
-Historical Evidence No other religion comes close with the amount of archaeological and textual evidence. The bible was written over thousands of years by dozens of different people on several continents and secular studies of the bible have found no contradictions. There are also hundreds of pieces of archaeological evidence for things told in the Old Testament.
-Purpose Christianity has an attainable end: relationship with God. Unlike Buddhism that teaches to not desire anything.
-Biblical Teaching I believe that the teachings in the Bible understand human nature better than any psychology or other text ever written, and it was created by random dudes thousands of years ago.
-Seeing God's Work I have seen, and have met people who have seen, miracles. Not the kind that can be easily explained away.
-Personal experience A relationship with Jesus combined with the lessons in the bible complete humans more than anything imaginable, and I don't believe that's a result of chance. Become a Christian and pray with someone to accept the Love of Jesus and experience a high that's literally beyond description.
-etc... That's pretty much off the top of my head, I'm sure I'll remember more later. I've spent a lot of time with this question.

This is really about the fact that yer own witch doctor cure of the poison
oak didn't work and now you need real help, right?

I believe it totally worked, even it was a placebo effect!

The elephant in the room has always been, is God real or a figment of comfort from the realities of life.

Without going into too much detail I believe that something comes from something and life comes from life (Romans 1:20).

If god is so powerful, can he put up a route so hard
that even he can't pull off a red point?

Since God is omnipotent, can he create such a big rock that he won't be able to lift?

;-)

Moose

I believe I will ask him someday, and whether or not he can make a burger so big he can't eat it.

Any websites satyrical of christians?

LOL

Why did the Bible not include the Tooth Fairy ? It's a story that has it all.

Because the tooth fairy isn't real :)

Can God end hell?

I believe hell is a chosen separation from God. People can end that.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Mar 29, 2016 - 12:09am PT

^^^^ Yep!

I also believe that JC would be cool with a retrobolt of his route but would not retrobolt someone else's route. (Luke 6:31)

Hahahahahaahahaha!

Good for you. l love it!

GDavis

Social climber

SOL CAL

Mar 29, 2016 - 12:43am PT

Damn dude thanks for answering that one!

Sometimes I find that people look to religion as a shotgun blast to the circle of morality - meaning, you might hit most of the target, but things deemed immoral might be moral and vice-versa.

-Nature of God Every other religion I looked at, outside of the ones based on the first five books of the bible, teach about gods that are at odds with humans and humans are constantly trying to avoid their wrath. None of them teach about the love of God and so I don't know why they would even tolerate humans (like Greek Gods and many Native American beliefs, etc...) They teach that humans try to reach up to God, but they don't teach of a God that reaches down to humans. This doesn't make sense to me. Christianity teaches a reason for creation.

I think it's drawing with a very broad brush to say that religions like daoism and buddhism are particularly wrathful, however I see your point.

-Documentation The bible (specifically the new testament) is the only reliable documentation of God making proclamations and backing them up with observed actions.

Which actions are you saying God was documented making? While I do think that there is enough evidence to say that a person named Jesus existed in the area he was in circa 30AD, with little info before his meeting of John the Baptist, the claim that written word of supernatural acts, even if they are 2000 years old, are a documentation strikes me of confirmation bias.

-Nature of Jesus Not many people who read about it believe that Jesus (the human) didn't exist, and most acknowledge that he was a good person. He was either good, crazy, or a liar. I don't think he could be good AND crazy or good AND a liar.

Jesus existing, and Jesus being the son of God yadda yadda yadda, are two different things. Today, right now, in small countries the world over, are holy men being 'documented' performing miracles. As much as I would love to trust anecdotal data, heresay and word-of-mouth, everything from Sasquatch documentaries to the Telephone game to every other historical religious figure reminds me to be skeptical of such purported truths in lieu of hard evidence.

-Statistics The odds of someone fulfilling all 48 prophesies told in the old testament is 1 in 10^157. Jesus did and that means something to me.

Question - did the people who wrote the new testament hear of those prophesies? He fulfilled them based on a book written by Men, flawed men, copied over several languages and translated often enough that the original wording can be considered completely different than what Shakespeare put to print for the common man for the first time some 500 years ago. No, I don't think this is a good answer at all.

-Faking the Resurrection People who had seen Jesus went to their death defending what they saw. It is hard for me to believe that all of the apostles would have died for a lie. And if it was made up the authors would probably not have made themselves out to be cowards.

No court in the world would hold first person accounts from 2000 years ago as evidence.

-Historical Evidence No other religion comes close with the amount of archaeological and textual evidence. The bible was written over thousands of years by dozens of different people on several continents and secular studies of the bible have found no contradictions. There are also hundreds of pieces of archaeological evidence for things told in the Old Testament.

It is easy to not contradict things that are already written - you can find thousands of pages of LotR fanfiction that is 'canon' and not-contradicting isn't grounds for truth (I wonder if L. Ron Hubbards work contradicts itself?)

To claim the historical pieces that have been found as evidence is to ignore the unscientific claims that cannot be verified. I might find the clock tower, I might find the library, but Back to the Future was fiction.

-Purpose Christianity has an attainable end: relationship with God. Unlike Buddhism that teaches to not desire anything.

One of my personal struggles with christianity as it was prescribed to me was the wanton love of a God who seems to neither care that I existed or what I did. As easily as my blessings could be blamed on God so could my hardships, and while I don't doubt many find some great ennui from his love I wonder how much is given back that couldn't be attributed to luck, preparation or the actual will of the human in charge.

-Biblical Teaching The teachings in the Bible understand human nature better than any psychology or other text ever written, and it was created by random dudes thousands of years ago.

I grew up thinking that Gay people were sinners, that sex was to be intimate and sacred and that women were put on this earth to serve man. All ideas in the bible. The idea that the bible is better than any psychology or other text ever written is silly and makes taking other points you make somewhat difficult in regards to claims of specific evidence.

-Seeing God's Work I have seen, and have met people who have seen, miracles. Not the kind that can be easily explained away.

Gotcha.

-Personal experience A relationship with Jesus combined with the lessons in the bible complete humans more than anything imaginable, and I don't believe that's a result of chance. Become a Christian and pray with someone so accept the Love of Jesus and experience a high that's literally beyond description.

I've met plenty of people who use the bible to better themselves. I've met people who use fitness to better themselves. I've met people who use psychedelics to better themselves.

You're faith strikes me as a form of confirmation bias. you are here, so here you are. There is an egg, so there's a chicken. There isn't anything you've said I haven't heard, or told myself at 19, or that isn't a tired argument or excuse to keep the train running.

I guess a part of me hopes, in having these discussions, to learn something new about what makes people follow a faith. At the end of the day it is a combination of a compartmentalization of what you can't accept and a self belief in what can't be true. The idea that the bible can't be challenged as evidence along with a personal 'relationship' with a God can carry one their whole life in a veil of ideology.

I really appreciate you opening this discussion. I don't understand how you can hold many of those ideas as truths, but you do, just as I think that Road House is the greatest movie ever and that Sport Climbing is a reasonable way to spend my time.

GDavis

Social climber

SOL CAL

Mar 29, 2016 - 12:53am PT

DMT, the type of christian you are referring to is a different type of christian than LC.

DMT, why are climbers just like you chipping holds and pulling vegetation? Why do climbers like you do that?

(I got this one bro)

GDavis

Social climber

SOL CAL

Mar 29, 2016 - 12:59am PT

ur pedantic ?s r bad n u shuld feel bad

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Mar 29, 2016 - 01:06am PT

As easily as my blessings could be blamed on God so could my hardships, and while I don't doubt many find some great ennui from his love I wonder how much is given back that couldn't be attributed to luck, preparation or the actual will of the human in charge.

Surely.

and your attitude of cause and effect is naturally natural. Well except for the "luck" thats exclusively scientific.

Are you thinking the blame should lie on your mom for giving you a christmas present that didn't work?

GDavis

Social climber

SOL CAL

Mar 29, 2016 - 01:15am PT

That damn scientific method, so useless.

ecdh

climber

the east

Mar 29, 2016 - 01:31am PT

why did god invent hallucinogenic plants?

seriously.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Mar 29, 2016 - 02:11am PT

Ricky, your post is fruitless, and lacks any meat of integrity.

clinker

Trad climber

Santa Cruz, California

Mar 29, 2016 - 05:39am PT

We were at Dominican Hospital recently and there was a crucifix above the bed. A man dressed as a priest was visiting people. A man dressed as a security guard was handing out visitor passes. People dressed as doctors and nurses were giving excellent care to folks in all stages of bad shape.

After 5 days we left in much better shape than we entered. I din't check out a single credential or read the thesis that the security guard must have written prior to allowing him his trusted post, but I do believe in Dominican Hospital.

The crucifix above the bed gave me an idea to make exorcisms easier. Throw a good seance next door, which is like a party for spirits. Then in all but the most extreme cases all the priest would have to do is slam and bar the door after it(they) leave(s) the afflicted.

I also advised my daughters that when breaking up with a schizophrenic, to say "It's not you, it's them".

Considering all that transpired the week before, we had a good family time on Easter weekend. My Dad turned 75!

bentelbow

climber

spud state

Mar 29, 2016 - 07:08am PT

If Jesus was human wouldn't he have died anyway? Does it make a difference if he was taken out by a bunch of Romans?

Flip Flop

climber

Earth Planet, Universe

Mar 29, 2016 - 07:56am PT

Cmon?

Can God end Hell and the Devil?
Answer the question.

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2016 - 09:11am PT

GDavis, it looks like not adding specifics did indeed create more questions! It looks like a lot of the points you cover stem from the fact that using the bible to defend Christianity is basically circular reasoning. I really don't have much of an answer for that. Basically, I believe there is something beyond the physical world for many reasons. Of all of the religions I have looked into I believe Christianity stands out as, by far, the most logical and likely. At that point I take the Bible as truth. As you were probably told many times when you were younger, at some point it's just faith. It's no coincidence that God saw this coming and addressed it quite a bit in the Bible (Matthew 18:3, etc...)

even if they are 2000 years old, are a documentation strikes me of confirmation bias.

I believe I can't think of any other way that the acts of Jesus can be proven to people today other than a bunch of people seeing it and writing it down. That's how most things from history are known. My main point was to contrast other religious texts that are from a single person writing down their ideas.

reminds me to be skeptical of such purported truths in lieu of hard evidence.

I don't know how to answer this because, again, I can't think of any way that there would be hard evidence that Jesus performed miracles.

Question - did the people who wrote the new testament hear of those prophesies?

I believe that the fact that so many people wrote so many parts of the book, without working together on it, is strong evidence that it wasn't one huge conspiracy. Many of the prophesies were actually interpreted differently then how they ended up being fulfilled so I think it it unlikely that Jesus was made up to look like he fulfilled the predictions. It wasn't until after his death that the pieces were put together.

No court in the world would hold first person accounts from 2000 years ago as evidence.

I don't know what evidence they would accept from 2000 years ago.

I believe what God said and did in the Bible shows that he cares quite a bit. I also believe that using examples of hardships in life is a weak argument against God because life is so short that any suffering experience during it is pretty insignificant compared with the end goal of being with God. Kind of a big picture way of thinking. (Philippians 3:8)

The idea that the bible is better than any psychology or other text ever written is silly and makes taking other points you make somewhat difficult in regards to claims of specific evidence.

I have yet to hear of any hardship in life that is not addressed in the Bible, that's what I meant.

I've met plenty of people who use the bible to better themselves. I've met people who use fitness to better themselves. I've met people who use psychedelics to better themselves.

I believe we were created for a relationship with Jesus and the need to dedicate our lives to something. There are many ways people try to fill this void. For example, meditation has been shown to have many benefits, I believe this is because we were created to spend time praying and people are finding other ways to get similar benefits. Of course it can be argued that we evolved certain traits and people use religion to try to address them.

GDavis

Social climber

SOL CAL

Mar 29, 2016 - 09:19am PT

Thanks again for clarifying. I really appreciate your insight and agree that what you have seen in your life has brought you to where you are, a place that also gives you peace and a greater understanding - fu.ck yeah brah!

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2016 - 09:27am PT

Mr Christian, if you please, should muslims enjoy the same legal treatments and social norms as christians?

Yes, as long as their practices don't restrict the freedoms of others. I believe Jesus taught that the government and the individual have different roles (can't think of the verses right now, somewhere in Corinthians I think, but I read about this a lot last year). It is not the governments job to enforce religious values. In fact, I don't think individuals can combat sin directly, but we are instead taught to combat sin with love (Matthew 5:44). You won't find me voting against gay marriage or any other moral issue taught in the bible. You will hopefully find myself, and other Christians, showing love to everyone regardless of their actions, as Jesus did.

why did god invent hallucinogenic plants?

Ha! I honestly don't know. Maybe he created them that way or maybe they evolved chemical compounds to resist predation. I do not believe the bible clearly states whether mind altering stuff is bad. It does say that altering your mind too often is unwise, which is reasonable (proverbs 20:1). It also says that we should respect the law (Romans 13:1) and to avoid doing things that other people think are wrong so you don't cause them to struggle with their convictions. I have nothing against having a few drinks but I won't drink around people who think it's wrong (1 corinthians 8:9)

If Jesus was human wouldn't he have died anyway? Does it make a difference if he was taken out by a bunch of Romans?

I believe the important part is not the death, but the resurrection. If Jesus didn't rise from the dead then Christianity is wrong. (Acts 2:24-32 and many others).
Edit to add: he died an extremely painful death, and in doing so suffered the punishment for our sins, I believe that's why he didn't just die of old age.

Cmon?

Can God end Hell and the Devil?
Answer the question.

I suppose so, but I believe that would mean putting an end to free will. I do believe the Bible says he will not end it (Matthew 25:46). But I have friends who disagree, such as 7th day Adventists, and they have some good arguments. The Bible really doesn't spend a ton of time with heaven and hell and neither do I. I don't think that's the point of faith in Jesus, I think that how it can improve your life and all of humanity is the biggest game changer.

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2016 - 09:41am PT

Should christian practice be allowed to restrict the freedom of others?

I do not believe it should.

Edit: unless that practice is hurting people (Psalm 82:3-4, Isaiah 1:17)

Wade Icey

Trad climber

www.alohashirtrescue.com

Mar 29, 2016 - 10:02am PT

I believe that God created humans and angels for loving relationships

With each other? Only in North Carolina? If wed in the church?

John M

climber

Mar 29, 2016 - 10:05am PT

Can God end Hell and the Devil?
Answer the question.

modern Christians tend to believe that Hell is eternal and that Satan will suffer for eternity.

Some Christians believe otherwise. I do not believe that the suffering of hell is eternal. It makes no sense if God is Love, which I believe that God is. Since as Werner stated on the atheist thread, because everything is made out of God, then why would God allow a part of Him/Her Self to suffer for eternity. There a a number of verses in the bible about hell. I do not accept that the bible is the inerrant word of God. I believe that it is for the most part the inspired word of God, but that is an entirely different thing. It was a tool of evil that caused Christians to accept that the bible was the inerrant word of God. For centuries writing/books such as are found in the bible were considered to be inspired by the Holy Spirit, and therefore it was up to each individual to decide which writings held how much truth. This made the path to God difficult, and that is part of the reason the bible came into existence. but to say that it is inerrant was a grave mistake.

Getting back to the understanding of hell. I believe that some of the verses in the bible are false. I believe that hell only exists for a time. The lake of fire which all that is false is put into is eternal. But the suffering is not. And the suffering described in the bible is not physical, but spiritual. God is not some beast who tortures, for why would God want to torture a part of Him/Her self. What happens is those parts of God which have gone astray, such as Satan, in their final moments realize that they are about to exist no more, and so they morn and cry out. And even at the last moment God is generous and kind and gives them a last chance to repent. but it is foreseen that they will not repent because of pride, and so they will be put into the lake of fire which burns away all that is false. My use of the word burn is not meant to describe torture. The actual experience is not of burning but of transforming. There is no physical pain involved. Only the spiritual pain at that last moment when one knows they will be no more. To a being who has seen eternity and heaven, that is painful. Some of you will go happily because you no longer remember heaven. That is a great sadness to God. But God was firm in giving his children dominion over their fate. You can choose eternal life or eternal death. You do so every day on this planet.

Do not confuse religion with God. Religion is man's limited understanding of God. Man's knowledge is limited by his own choices. Much like those who go to school and choose to party everyday instead of studying end up after school with less knowledge then they would have if they had studied. This statement in no way means that God only wants you to study. God created the beauty of the world and wants you to enjoy it. But there is a balance to be learned.

Wade Icey

Trad climber

www.alohashirtrescue.com

Mar 29, 2016 - 10:08am PT

almost missed my cue...

the Fet

climber

Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La

Mar 29, 2016 - 10:11am PT

Was the Easter bunny Jesus's pet?

Did it rise from the dead with him? If so did it become a zombie bunny? Was it in fact the Rabbit of Caerbannog in Monty Python and the Holy Grail that was killed when King Arthur threw the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch at it?

Why does the Easter bunny lay eggs? Is it related to the duck bill platypus?

Lurkingtard

climber

Mar 29, 2016 - 10:43am PT

When crucified, Jesus was nailed up through his wrists. Why is he depicted with wounds on his palms?

bentelbow

climber

spud state

Mar 29, 2016 - 11:09am PT

Did God create sin? If so, sounds like the game is rigged.

bentelbow

climber

spud state

Mar 29, 2016 - 11:14am PT

I'll have a problem with the idea that if you don't accept Jesus your going to hell. What about all the people that never even heard of him,Native Americans, very young children etc.?

WBraun

climber

Mar 29, 2016 - 11:17am PT

Why you worry about hell.

Everyone is in it already .....

Pea-dub

Ice climber

sun diego

Mar 29, 2016 - 11:48am PT

CYou hooked me in to the super topo web, Campfire.I've been standing in the trees listening for 10-11 years. Around that time Rajmit or whatever his name was, stirred the pot and got everyone cranky.
A very interesting place with lots of great stories and characters.
I never broke the 5.11 threshold.😊 Haven't climbed for awhile.

A lot of Christians know about Christ and the bible. But they never made the move to have a personal relationship with him.
It's thru a pastor or priest or some denomination.(like minded people saying a one time praying
Accepting him as saviour,
never accepting him as Lord of there life.
True Christianity brings one to the cross ,,you will never look at your brothers in the world the same way.You won't try to make them (behave Or act or behave correctly anything else). I couldn't before the cross I struggle after meeting Christ and the cross. But Christ lives in me.
Many here will tell me I'm wrong. Wow How will you tell another man what he has experienced in his life is not true or a lie or a myth.
Locker I am 100% sure I have you beat by .00001. 😊
I think when you start with Jesus there is a amount of your heart that is transformed..01 % or 30 50 90%
That's where the road of the cross continues in the Christians life or not....
The man of Flesh dies really hard along with the rest of your heart that's in the land of indecision.
At least that's how it is for me.
I was broken as a child 4 months in a military day care.
They told my parents I had epilepsy. Gave me lots of drugs, electric shock
And. Ha my body has more memories then I do.
Those parts of me are coming out slowly that have all the memories.
I have no other path to walk down but this one. I can't turn to the right or left.
I went thru a divorce have 2 grown Daughter's 😊 life has been full of pain .
Thanks for listening.
I have some work this afternoon. I will be busy till 8.
Thanks for start this thread.
You pulled me out of the trees.
Many people would have rather you not started it.

Keep up the good defense
You never know what will
bring about change in some ones life. If God living in you dos not change you. It wasn't God..

Or you couldn't finish what you thought you wanted to do..

Pea-dub

Ice climber

sun diego

Mar 29, 2016 - 12:09pm PT

Never said it was a competition you said that.
Maybe I was wrong in stating that.
Ha Also I'm remembering the prophet Balaam he had a connection with God spoke for him and still chose to die with God's enemies.
Lots of warnings in the bible.

snakefoot

climber

Nor Cal

Mar 29, 2016 - 12:16pm PT

funny names of routes at buzzard point TN

Jesus! get away from the edge!

900 hundred foot jesus

and so on. great climbs by the way.

Klimmer

Mountain climber

Mar 29, 2016 - 03:01pm PT

Donini said ...

Mar 28, 2016 - 06:13pm PT
People of different religions or those of no religion do not learn from each other....there is an uncrossable divide.

To say that faiths don't cross-over and that no one converts from one faith to another faith is not true at all ...

Many Muslims are coming to faith in Yeshua through supernatural dreams and visions of the Messiah. A great majority of them are after all Arabs, and Children of Abraham. They just went down the wrong path. Yeshua is bringing them back to the true Messiah.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=muslims+having+supernatural+dreams+of+Jesus+or+Yeshua

Gary

Social climber

Where in the hell is Major Kong?

Mar 29, 2016 - 03:04pm PT

OK, serious question.

In Exodus, God wanted Pharoah to let his people go and sent Moses to deliver the message: let my people go, or else Egypt is in for a world of hurt.

God tells Moses how it will go down: God will unleash is fury on Egypt, and Pharoah will decide to let His people go. Then God will "harden" Pharoah's heart to change his mind and not let His people go. God will then unleash another catastrophe on Egypt. Pharoah will decide to let His people go, then God will "harden" Pharoah's heart to change his mind and not let His people go. And so forth.

And that's how it goes down. Pharoah says he'll let the people go, then God changes the Pharoah's mind to not let the people go. More disasters for Egypt follow, and so on.

So, what's the point? If God could bend Pharoah to His will, why not just have Pharoah let his people go? If God just wanted to kill lots of Egyptians why not just be up front about it and forget this charade?

One more thing, if the pestilence has already killed all the animals in Egypt, how can the hail kill more?

Donnini: One monotheistic religion doesn't care what you believe, you'll obtain salvation if you are more good than bad, no matter what you believe, or don't believe: Zoroastrianism.

rbord

Boulder climber

atlanta

Mar 29, 2016 - 03:05pm PT

I love the humility of admitting that we honestly don't know why God created hallucinogenic plants. The rest of the stuff we believe is child's play in comparison. Well, I mean, if the bible, which we honestly and humbly know is entirely true, says so. Oky doky then.

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Mar 29, 2016 - 03:23pm PT

The best one was still about God banging some other dudes wife.

Laughing smiley face.

ecdh

climber

the east

Mar 29, 2016 - 04:04pm PT

So its official: a god that doesnt exist allows people who can think for themselves to have the same privileges as those who abuse in the arrogance of ideology. The voices in his head tell him so...

I loathe that if the pope says it its doctrine but if anyone else says it its irrelevant.
Nice of frank to say so, but an abomination that hes invested with the power for it to matter.

As a healthy primate its impossible to give any of that any more creedence than a furry freak brothers comic.

To be included in the lies of another i dont consider an honor

Norton

Social climber

Mar 29, 2016 - 04:07pm PT

Not real sure if I could ever fully trust a dude named Francis...

especially when he wears his really cool red pumps.....

and the accessories the guy wears, the caps, gowns, staffs, pumps

I mean, code for gay?

Lurkingtard

climber

Mar 29, 2016 - 04:10pm PT

[Click to View YouTube Video]

ecdh

climber

the east

Mar 29, 2016 - 04:15pm PT

I like the francis name.

One of the few characters in theology i dig was his namesake, who rallied against the excesses of the church, went for direct experience, disdained followers and hung out on mountains. Only when he started to influence rich kids to question materilism and the crusades did church reel him in - actually against the will of the pope.

The original francis was alright.

Lurkingtard

climber

Mar 29, 2016 - 04:37pm PT

moosedrool

climber
Andrzej Citkowicz far away from Poland

Mar 29, 2016 - 04:31pm PT
I've heard, in hell, gym climbing only.

Full of young Asian chicks.

Now you're just baiting DMT.

~~~

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2016 - 06:40pm PT

When crucified, Jesus was nailed up through his wrists. Why is he depicted with wounds on his palms?

There's a lot of debate on how Romans used to crucify people and evidence that they used a variety of methods. Jesus is depicted as being nailed up by his hands because Jesus shows Thomas scars on his hands and it's the only place where anything specific is mentioned (John 20:27).

Did God create sin? If so, sounds like the game is rigged.

I believe God created humans with free will and Satan was an angel (with free will) who decided to not follow God and deceive people into following his example, that's why he's called the the father of lies (John 8:44). Sin is basically not following God so it comes with the free will thing.

I'll have a problem with the idea that if you don't accept Jesus your going to hell. What about all the people that never even heard of him,Native Americans, very young children etc.?

Great, and tough, question. First, I believe that priests in the old testament would offer sacrificed for people who sinned in ignorance (numbers 15:22-29) and because Jesus was the final sacrifice for all sins (Hebrews 10:12) his blood covered those sins as well. We at least know that Jesus made a distinction between sins committed in ignorance and those that weren't (Luke 12:47-48).

But, the bible teaches that anyone who searches for God will find him (Deuteronomy 4:29) so I believe it is possible for anyone to know him. It also says that nobody has an excuse because knowledge of God is inherent, so everyone will at least consider the idea and decide whether or not to reject it (Romans 1:19-20).

Bottom line is that I believe that God has revealed himself to everyone so they can know his love and mercy. The problem is not that some people never hear about Christ, but that they reject what has been revealed to them. He wants everyone to know about him (2 Peter 3:9) and whatever we believe about this question he wants Christians to share his message (Matthew 28:19-20).

As a side note, I believe that everyone has sinned and does not deserve a reward (Romans 3:23) so even if only a few people accept the love of Jesus he is still merciful. It always comes back to the love of Jesus.

Does the golden rule apply to off widths?

I believe it does and offwidths don't want me to climb them so I will not climb them.

I believe God's answer to this, that it was to demonstrate his power so that his name might be proclaimed throughout the earth (Exodus 9:16, Romans 9:17). Some people think that Pharoah hardened his own heart and God used it for his purposes. Either way, would anyone have ever heard of the slaves that asked to leave and were given permission and then walked around in the desert? God seems to be right in that his power has been spoken of around the world because of this story. I believe the will and plan of God are beyond our understanding, but it's fun to talk about (Romans 11:33-36, 1 Corinthians 2:9).

One more thing, if the pestilence has already killed all the animals in Egypt, how can the hail kill more?

I've heard several possible explanations for this. I believe any one is possible any only one needs to be for there to not be a contradiction.
-The verses never mention goats so they could have survived.
-The servants of Pharoah who feared God were warned.
-The bible does not say how long it was between plagues so they could have taken some from the Israelites or bought more from the surrounding areas. (I doubt they bred a new population because the whole series of events took less than 2 years.)
-All could have meant "all types" and not "every single living animal."

Why do your people come to my door and ask me stupid questions?

Ha! I don't personally know anyone who does this but they come to my door too. Think of evangelists in this way to give them the benefit of the doubt as people: Imagine you were convinced you had the cure for cancer and it would drastically improve countless people's lives. Would you worry about bothering people or what the holistic medicine crowd would think? I assume anyone who cares about their fellow humans would want to share what they honestly believe will benefit the lives of others, so try to have some patience with those people who interrupt dinner, even if you disagree with them :)

There is hope for me!

http://www.oregonlive.com/today/index.ssf/2015/12/pope_francis_offers_hope_to_fa.html

I believe the Catholic church has it wrong when they believe that the Pope, or anyone, can add to what's been taught in the bible because they have some sort of special access. The bible teaches to not add anything (Deuteronomy 4:12, Proverbs 3:16, Revelations 22:18-19) and that Jesus provides equal access to God for everyone who believes (Ephesians 2:18, Romans 5:2). I think the Pope is some sort of vestige from the prophets and priests in the old testament, but there are some verses that can be misunderstood that way so I don't think they're being intentionally deceptive.

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Mar 29, 2016 - 06:44pm PT

Being a completely centrist tolerant secular liberal atheist
I encourage you to have fun with whatever makes you happy

I have problems with the intolerance of tolerance

d-know

Trad climber

electric lady land

Mar 29, 2016 - 06:57pm PT

Why do you believe
a zombie is the
salvation of
humanity?

Norton

Social climber

Mar 29, 2016 - 07:03pm PT

Do Christians believe that Radiometric Dating has accurately pegged the first usage
of stone tools by Hominids in East Africa to be accurate at 2.5 million years ago?

John M

climber

Mar 29, 2016 - 07:27pm PT

The bible teaches to not add anything (Deuteronomy 4:12, Proverbs 3:16, Revelations 22:18-19)

I don't see how the first two verses have to do with not adding to the "bible". which didn't exist when deuteronomy or proverbs were written. What is in the bible was determined by men. As for the verse in Revelations, it is clearly speaking about the prophecy of revelations. Which by the way has been changed/added to.

http://historical-jesus.info/rjohn.html

So as near as I can see, there are no verses that say to not add to the bible. That is a fear teaching. The bible says over and over to fear not.

Jesus said he had more to tell us, but we weren't ready for it at that time. Is there no time now or in the future when Jesus could explain more about life? Has no one matured in the Christ mind since Jesus' death? Or did we take Jesus' teachings and then stagnate? If so, then that would be a sad testimony to Jesus' life.

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2016 - 07:43pm PT

Why do you believe
a zombie is the
salvation of
humanity?

I do not believe Jesus ate brains.

Do Christians believe that Radiometric Dating has accurately pegged the first usage
of stone tools by Hominids in East Africa to be accurate at 2.5 million years ago?

Christians have many opinions on evolution and the age of the earth. I don't believe that the topic has an effect on salvation or anyone's personal relationship with Jesus. I'm fine with someone taking all of the Bible literally or someone thinking that because Jesus used parables to teach in the New Testament, perhaps God used parables to teach in the Old Testament. I don't have any answer that I'm willing to go to the grave defending.

Fair enough, I should have probably used Galatians 1:6-9, didn't think of it. I just want to point out that I believe Jesus is the focus of the entire Bible, and Jesus+anything isn't sound doctrine.

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Mar 29, 2016 - 07:47pm PT

Are you a Christian Apologist?

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Mar 29, 2016 - 07:52pm PT

I would like to ask a PERSON...not a christian, jew, muslim, hindu, buddhist, atheist et al. The fact that so many people identify themselves by their religious beliefs is a major reason the world is so f*#ked up.

7SacredPools

Trad climber

Ontario, Canada

Mar 29, 2016 - 07:55pm PT

I'm fine with someone taking all of the Bible literally

So... you're cool with people being stoned to death for working on the sabbath, disrespecting their parents etc., etc.?

John M

climber

Mar 29, 2016 - 07:58pm PT

I don't mean to sound like a hard ass, nor do I wish to be argumentative with you, but Galatians 6 is not about adding to or taking away from the "bible". It is about not changing the story of Jesus.

Again, Jesus said he had more to say to us. This is the part that I am referring to. The modern church seems to ignore this when it tries to say that the bible is the only word of God and one shouldn't add to it. Jesus wanted to add to it, but we weren't ready. Men created the bible. They chose what would go in it and what wouldn't. And it was contentious at the time. They were doing something noble in attempting to bring together a very large group of inspired teachings to make it possible for the masses to study. But the modern church has perverted that effort by teaching that it now is the only word of God, when it was never meant to be that.

So again I ask. When will people be ready? Has no one on this planet put on the Christ mind since Jesus" death? If they have, then could not Jesus expound to them more teachings?

Skeptimistic

Mountain climber

La Mancha

Mar 29, 2016 - 07:59pm PT

I find it impossible to believe that a supposedly omnipotent, omniscient & omnipresent being that is touted to be loving and forgiving would allow the myriad of tragedies and injustices to occur, particularly to the children and truly loving inhabitants of this planet. If there is such a being, then it is cruelly sadistic and unworthy of our worship.

That we have consciousness is a product of millenia of evolutionary changes beginning with random chemical reactions, gradually increasing in complexity to ensure survival in changing environments. We have invented the concept of god as a salve to keep from going insane trying to figure out what it all means. Along the way people have figured out deities are a very convenient way to control the masses while amassing power & fortunes.

John M

climber

Mar 29, 2016 - 08:08pm PT

This is why the teachings on reincarnation should never have been removed by the "christian" church. The modern Christian church has failed its mission when it fails to answer this reasonable question. To say that we can not know the mind of God is inadequate and a failure. The teachings exist. The modern Christian church chooses not to see because it has bought wholesale the lie that the bible is the complete teachings of God. It isn't even close.

d-know

Trad climber

electric lady land

Mar 29, 2016 - 08:09pm PT

Immaculate conception
and resurrection.

How does one
reconcile with
such intellectual
dishonesty?

mrtropy

Trad climber

Nor Cal

Mar 29, 2016 - 08:13pm PT

I never cheated on my wife, but Trump has ... why is he better than me? Why do the trailer park trash worship him like a god. the one time I prayed god said he would wend trump p to hell is that true?

climbski2

Mountain climber

Anchorage AK, Reno NV

Mar 29, 2016 - 08:15pm PT

This argument has never held water with me. Let us assume that the bible is correct and you do live forever.. that all who died that you loved may just be waiting behind the veil.. that what you lost and the pain you felt is just a blink in eternity. Neither may we after a few millenia.

A god who sees all who lived and always will live after death would not consider our limited experience of death from just one side to be all that big a deal.

....Just playing Jesus advocate here.

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Mar 29, 2016 - 08:23pm PT

Was Jesus a progressive socialist or a communist?

did he not preach against the right wing establishment?

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2016 - 08:39pm PT

Are you a Christian Apologist?

I've never really thought about that definition, but I do think people should be able to explain and defend their beliefs (1 Peter 3:15). It's mostly me asking myself these questions and then looking for answers.

I'm fine with someone taking all of the Bible literally

So... you're cool with people being stoned to death for working on the sabbath, disrespecting their parents etc., etc.?

The whole Bible, not select verses from the Old Testament.

I don't mean to sound like a hard ass, nor do I wish to be argumentative with you, but Galatians 6 is not about adding to or taking away from the "bible". It is about not changing the story of Jesus.

I think the Bible is the story of Jesus, from beginning to end. Maybe that's where we're having trouble reconciling ideas.

Again, Jesus said he had more to say to us. This is the part that I am referring to. The modern church seems to ignore this when it tries to say that the bible is the only word of God and one shouldn't add to it. Jesus wanted to add to it, but we weren't ready. Men created the bible. They chose what would go in it and what wouldn't. And it was contentious at the time. They were doing something noble in attempting to bring together a very large group of inspired teachings to make it possible for the masses to study. But the modern church has perverted that effort by teaching that it now is the only word of God, when it was never meant to be that.

So again I ask. When will people be ready? Has no one on this planet put on the Christ mind since Jesus" death? If they have, then could not Jesus expound to them more teachings?

I believe that, just as God had his hand in the message of the Bible, he also had his hand in what went into the book itself. I believe 2 Timothy 3:16 and also think that everything we need is in there. God speaks to people who seek him in prayer, but it's not an addition to what's in the Bible. Of course I believe Jesus will return, but I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say that he "wanted to add to it?"

In short, I believe your first point to be answered by Romans 8:18. With an eternal perspective it doesn't seem so extreme for a sinful world to have some hard times. Especially when God offers a free way out, accepting grace and love.

I've spent my life studying your second point, and I still don't see it as possible. I do believe faith in Jesus is great for mental health so we've got a chicken/egg issue there. The bible told us this would happen though, that everyone is born with an inherent knowledge that there is something bigger (Romans 1:20).

"The fact that so many people identify themselves by their religious beliefs is a major reason the world is so f*#ked up."...

Religion is way more of a problem...

than an answer...

Hey, you guys have something in common with Jesus! He couldn't stand religious people either (Matthew 23 and a bunch of other places)

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2016 - 08:53pm PT

Immaculate conception
and resurrection.

How does one
reconcile with
such intellectual
dishonesty?

I believe it fits perfectly with the whole story of God and humanity so I don't see a big problem.

I'm confused

Was Jesus a progressive socialist or a communist?

did he not preach against the right wing establishment?

I believe Jesus taught that the church and individuals were supposed to care for everyone, including the poor (dozens of verses like 1st Timothy 5:3). But I also believe that Jesus taught that the government and individuals have different roles (end of Romans 12 talks about the church forgiving while the beginning of 13 talks about the government punishing). The only reason the government would need to get involved is because of the failure of the church to take care of those in need. Not to get political (and outside of the scope of this thread) but I think if people want to help people then they should, rather than making it a law for others to (my parents have paid the rent for three families and health insurance for two, in addition to donating a lot of their teacher wages, even though they're right wing nut-jobs who don't want higher taxes :)

If everyone lived as Jesus taught there would be no needy people. But poor in spirit is much more sad than poor in possessions.

climbski2

Mountain climber

Anchorage AK, Reno NV

Mar 29, 2016 - 09:45pm PT

And poor in pocket is poor in spirit. Universally.

lol

money has nothing to do with good spirit. one can be rich if either broke or wealthy. or conversly one can be totally poor in the same financial conditions.

climbski2

Mountain climber

Anchorage AK, Reno NV

Mar 29, 2016 - 09:52pm PT

Moose once again nails the meat of the issue.. hell? really.. well f*#k you god. I aint perfect never will be.. never pretended to be.. well except a few times and nobody bought it anyway..

I want the best for everyone..i'll try to do the best from time to time.. sometimes I promise you..I will be a complete piece of sh#t..not becuse I want to be that way.. but because I am.

If you want to send me to hell for it..

f*#k you .. off I go. According to you you made me this way f*#ktard god who makes my bullshit bad actions seem like pure saintlyness compared to your eternal fire sadistic ass.

No god that is worse than me is worthy of my admiration..

Curt

climber

Gold Canyon, AZ

Mar 29, 2016 - 09:52pm PT

I think the Bible is the story of Jesus, from beginning to end...

What do you think of the embellishments added in the Bible to the historical life of Jesus, long after he was dead? Are you OK with that too--as being the "story" of Jesus?

Curt

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2016 - 10:33pm PT

Robert Heinlein's question:

"A long and wicked life followed by five minutes of perfect grace gets you into Heaven. An equally long life of decent living and good works followed by one outburst of taking the name of the Lord in vain—then have a heart attack at that moment and be damned for eternity. Is that the system?"

Moose

I believe that God values accepting his grace and loving him more than simply being a decent person for a long time (Luke 15, parables of the lost sheep, lost coin, and prodigal son). Although the result of a relationship with Jesus should be doing good (book of James). I also believe that the "unforgivable sin" (Mark 3:22-30) is generally misunderstood. Simply saying a curse with God's name or thinking something bad about the Holy Spirit etc... is not the point when taken in context. A better translation of "blaspheming the Holy Spirit" is continually rejecting the Holy Spirit, which is what turns your heart towards Jesus. Basically, knowing about and rejecting Jesus leads to hell.

Moose once again nails the meat of the issue.. hell? really.. well f*#k you god. I aint perfect never will be.. never pretended to be.. well except a few times and nobody bought it anyway..

I believe God does not desire perfection, but instead love and acceptance of grace (1st Timothy 2:4)

What do you think of the embellishments added in the Bible to the historical life of Jesus, long after he was dead? Are you OK with that too--as being the "story" of Jesus?

I'm not sure what you're referring to. I believe the four Gospels to be the literal truth of the life of Jesus, who historians at least admit existed. He came and died so that we can be free from our sins and have a relationship with God. That was nice of him!

clinker

Trad climber

Santa Cruz, California

Mar 30, 2016 - 01:03am PT

I am afraid that was the easy system but the new reality is that now God will be asking those who knew you in life their opinion of what kind of person you were. Too many replies that "so and so was a selfish as#@&%e" and yer doomed.

clinker

Trad climber

Santa Cruz, California

Mar 30, 2016 - 01:32am PT

Lahore, Pakistan (CNN)For so many, it was supposed to be a pleasant day out; among the Christian visitors, a fun way to celebrate Easter Sunday. But a day in the park turned into tragedy for the families of the 72 lives brutally cut short in Lahore's Gulshan-e-Iqbal Park last weekend.

Seventeen of those killed were minors, Haider Ashraf, the deputy inspector general of police for the Pakistani city, told CNN. Almost 400 others were wounded.
Naveed Ashraf with his new bride, Shawana. This image has been edited at the request of the victims' family to protect her privacy.
Naveed Ashraf with his new bride, Shawana. This image has been edited at the request of the victims' family to protect her privacy.
Jamat-ul-Ahrar, the group that claimed responsibility, said it was specifically targeting Christians on the holy day, and has vowed more such attacks.
The attack came at a poignant time for the country's Christian minority, some of whom were in the city's Gulshan-e-Iqbal Park to celebrate Easter on Sunday evening.
But not all the victims were Christians -- the simple fact is that families from across the city come to use this park, and the majority of the victims in Sunday's horrific attack were Muslim.
pakistan blast folo mohsin walk and talk cnn_00015027.jpg

Pakistan bombing: Victims buried; suspects detained 01:58
Near a makeshift memorial in the park, a sign, stark white capital letters on a black background, proclaimed what so many in this city think: "Terrorism has no religion."
Among the victims: a young Muslim couple, married just four months.
Young lives lost in Lahore blast
Overtaken by grief
Naveed Ashraf's mother was beside herself with loss. Her son has married just months before, and the newlyweds -- both Muslim -- were visiting the park with two of Naveed's sisters.
"I entrusted them in God's hands, now they are with God," she said.
It was the first time his new wife, Shawana, had visited the popular sport in Lahore, one of Pakistan's most moderate, cosmopolitan cities.
They both died in the bombing, suffering shrapnel wounds to the head and neck that poured blood, soaking their clothes, hair and faces.
They were buried as soon as possible under Muslim law -- first thing Monday morning. One of Naveed's sisters was also injured in the bombing -- a shrapnel wound in her leg.
"Everyone who saw (Shawana) said 'she looks like an angel,''' Naveed's mother told CNN. "Well, God made an angel come and take my son away."
Pakistan mourns Easter bombing victims

Pakistan mourns Easter bombing victims 01:56
Who are the Pakistan Taliban?
Moment of innocence before tragedy strikes
Moments before the attack, video taken of the Ashraf family. They were sitting having snacks close to a food stand when the bombers struck.
In the aftermath, the family searched for them at the park. They found them, broken and bloodied, at the city's Sheikh Zayed Hospital. On the way there they had helped other victims, one family in a stream of volunteers loading the injured into cars, on to motorbikes, anything that could carry them.
The sisters were covered in cloth lying side by side. One had been helped there by strangers, two men that carried her listless body -- men she now calls "brothers."
Despite her own injuries, her sister had searched for help to get her brother to hospital.
"Oh my lion son! I might as well be dead! I don't want to act like this, but I can help it. He was my lion, my big, strong son. Oh, my son was soaked in blood," his mother cried.
"If I could I would swap places with them. I wish I could give all my years to my children," she said, sobs wracking her body. Her husband, Naveed's father, sat next to her, mute in his own grief.
"All I wanted to do was hold my son and daughter in law close like this," she added, wrapping her arms around herself, tightly.
"How could they betray me like this? They took them away in coffins."
Pakistan: Lahore attackers have no religion

Pakistan: Lahore attackers have no religion 10:00
The area around the park remains closed, a crime scene. You can see the dark black soot, the scars of where one unidentified suicide bomber carried out this attack. The blackened soil is next to a children's ride.
The perpetrator of this horrific, senseless act likely perished in the flames alongside his scores of victims. He leaves behind, among countless others, a family who say a darkness has befallen them.
Will Lahore monstrosity be a wake-up call?

The answer is, kill these extremist?

Bad Climber

Trad climber

The Lawless Border Regions

Mar 30, 2016 - 06:30am PT

Sorry, but I have to post this. The Bible is WILDLY contradictory and inconsistent. Dig it:

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html

The Skeptics Annotated Bible is full of gems that leave any intellectually honest person (rare), saying What the hell? The site is worth a little reading. Enjoy.

BAd

fear

Ice climber

hartford, ct

Mar 30, 2016 - 06:40am PT

Virgin births.....

This is something that struck me as pure fantasy when I was 5 years old since my parents had already covered reproduction.

So is the story truly that Joe, a middle-Eastern male, hangs around a pregnant Mary and raises her offspring that isn't his?

And isn't the official record that Mary has more children after Jesus?

Just curious...

Shiho

Trad climber

Salt Lake City

Mar 30, 2016 - 08:12am PT

If Jesus' DNA was found and Y chromosome was detected in his DNA, what would that indicate about virgin birth?

If the Bible was about the life of Jesus, then why are there so many historical inaccuracy in it?

WBraun

climber

Mar 30, 2016 - 08:23am PT

A virgin can give birth.

Modern science has no clue how life actually started, their knowledge is very poor flat earth knowledge.

It's all ultimately guessing to them.

The spirit soul under normal conditions enters the the womb thru the male sperm.

But!!!! the soul can enter thru divine intervention without going thru the regular material process.

The Virgin Mary was NOT an ordinary materially conditioned person.

These nitya siddha ever liberated souls who descend according to time and circumstance can do the impossible that the materially condition people deem can't be done.

Curt

climber

Gold Canyon, AZ

Mar 30, 2016 - 09:31am PT

I'm not sure what you're referring to. I believe the four Gospels to be the literal truth of the life of Jesus, who historians at least admit existed.

Most of the four gospels were made up from whole cloth centuries after Jesus lived, based on very scant facts known about his actual life. See for example John Dominic Crossan's "Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography," or any of the works of JDC, Robert Funk and the Jesus Seminar.

[url="http:/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Seminar"]http:/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Seminar[/url]

Curt

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2016 - 10:43am PT

No apology necessary! Ya, I've been on that site before. At one point I randomly selected their examples over and over, reading the full passages cited. Hardly any of them were very difficult to reconcile and I began to notice a pattern of selecting the right verses from the right translations out of context to try to make their point. Sort of like taking 20 years of footage of one newscaster and splicing it together to make them look as crazy or intelligent as they desire. If you have a specific example, let me know, but I never found one that wasn't pretty simple to understand when taken in context.

That's the gist of it, but not too hard to accept if you're talking about the God who created everything. Joseph was actually going to send Mary away so she wouldn't get punished for getting pregnant but an angel told him what was going on (Matthew 1:20). After Jesus was born she had children with Joseph, so it's not like she was a virgin forever. Interestingly Jesus' brother James didn't even believe in Jesus until after he saw him raised from the dead, which confirmed what he had been teaching (1st Corinthians 15:7)

If Jesus' DNA was found and Y chromosome was detected in his DNA, what would that indicate about virgin birth?

Nothing new that I can think of.

If the Bible was about the life of Jesus, then why are there so many historical inaccuracy in it?

I don't know what you're referring to.

First, I believe the gospels were all written decades, not centuries, after the death and resurrection of Jesus. I just spent the morning rereading studies on the dates of authorship and they seem to all agree with this.
The main flaws, I believe, with studies like the Jesus Seminar and all of the offshoots, is that they treat the books of the bible with extreme skepticism and take just about any other historical account (even if it was written with similar purpose and fashion, like the book of Thomas) at face value. They also tend to exclude the supernatural and then try to make everything else fit, which is obviously not a valid assumption if you're talking about the story of Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit. Basically, whether people are motivated by proving the Gospels are literal or proving they are not, they are both prejudiced and the writings still stand alone.

Within one generation of the death of Jesus many people were murdered for talking about what they saw him do. If they made up the stories because they like the general message of helping the poor, and new that he was just a man, it's hard for me to believe all of those people went through torture and death without giving up. Especially since they pretty much all gave up hope after he was killed, but before they saw him alive again.

bentelbow

climber

spud state

Mar 30, 2016 - 10:54am PT

Why the lack of miracles for the last 2000 years? Does God care about saving people as he did for the Israelites from Egypt ?

Curt

climber

Gold Canyon, AZ

Mar 30, 2016 - 11:14am PT

The main flaws, I believe, with studies like the Jesus Seminar and all of the offshoots, is that they treat the books of the bible with extreme skepticism...

They also tend to exclude the supernatural...

Yes, that's exactly what real research does.

Curt

Shiho

Trad climber

Salt Lake City

Mar 30, 2016 - 12:02pm PT

I will try to be a bit more clear this time.
Why Matthew traces Joseph's descent from King David via ~28 generations while Luke traces ~41 generations? Old testament prophesied that the Messiah would be descended from Davis but since Joseph wasn't the father of Jesus, then isn't Joseph's ancestry irrelevant? Wan't Jesus born after King Herod's death? Then, why does the Bible talk about Herod's massacre of the innocents like it's relevant?

Also, are you familiar with the great prayer experiment? (Where there were three groups of patients with the same illness. One group was prayed by number of people across the US and didn't know it, the second group was not prayed and didn't know it and the third group was prayed by large number of people and were aware of it. The first two groups recovered about the same rate and the last group did the worse.) What do you conclude from this experiment?

fear

Ice climber

hartford, ct

Mar 30, 2016 - 12:23pm PT

Thanks for the response Limping....

How do you reconcile the billions of other people on this planet who believe in a completely different book(s) of myths and fables? I appreciate you believe the Bible as the word of your God but what about the teaming masses of billions of Hindu's, Muslims, Jews, ancient Egyptians, etc....? Literally millions of educated intelligent people that believe something completely different.

What's your take on more recent belief systems like Scientology?

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber

San Francisco

Mar 30, 2016 - 01:44pm PT

Ask A Christian. LOL Good name for a new route...

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2016 - 04:06pm PT

First, I hope this isn't getting too dense. The whole point of Christianity is to have a loving relationship with Jesus and to show his love to others. I don't claim to have the perfect answer to every question, but am just sharing what I believe as someone who believes in Jesus. I hope everyone would read the first four books of the New Testament. It won't take too long and then at least you'll have a better understanding of why you reject or accept it!

Why the lack of miracles for the last 2000 years? Does God care about saving people as he did for the Israelites from Egypt ?

I believe that miracles were not simply to do something for a few people, but to show the authority of God. In the Old Testament they were usually done by only a few people to show that their message is from God (1st Kings 17:17-24, all of the Stuff Moses did). In the New Testament they are to show that Jesus has the authority of God and then later that his disciples bring a true message from Jesus. Teachings came with the miracles and I believe the teachings were completed with Jesus and his disciples and the greatest miracle of all is that we can have a relationship with God by simply asking, and this will save anyone. That miracle still happens every single day.

Yes, that's exactly what real research does.

Sorry, but I don't believe that anyone will ever scientifically prove anything about God. He knew this and wants us to have faith, love and trust.

Why Matthew traces Joseph's descent from King David via ~28 generations while Luke traces ~41 generations? Old testament prophesied that the Messiah would be descended from Davis but since Joseph wasn't the father of Jesus, then isn't Joseph's ancestry irrelevant?

I believe that Luke gives Jesus' biological lineage through Mary and Matthew give Jesus' legal lineage through Joseph. Both include David so that addresses your second point. Jews are meticulous record keepers, especially with genealogies, so I don't believe this is a blatant error that was just recently noticed (the original language doesn't have a work for father-in-law so that trips some people up).

Wan't Jesus born after King Herod's death? Then, why does the Bible talk about Herod's massacre of the innocents like it's relevant?

I do not believe that Herod died before Jesus was born. Luke does not use the word "governor" when he talks about Quirinius taking a census so it does not contradict the historical writing of Josephus (They're actually both historical writings, some people ignore that).

Also, are you familiar with the great prayer experiment? (Where there were three groups of patients with the same illness. One group was prayed by number of people across the US and didn't know it, the second group was not prayed and didn't know it and the third group was prayed by large number of people and were aware of it. The first two groups recovered about the same rate and the last group did the worse.) What do you conclude from this experiment?

Ha! What the what? No, I had never heard of that. I believe God does not want people to test him, so I'm not surprised it didn't work (Luke 4:12).

How do you reconcile the billions of other people on this planet who believe in a completely different book(s) of myths and fables? I appreciate you believe the Bible as the word of your God but what about the teaming masses of billions of Hindu's, Muslims, Jews, ancient Egyptians, etc....? Literally millions of educated intelligent people that believe something completely different.

What's your take on more recent belief systems like Scientology?

After coming to the conclusion that there must be some sort of higher power for other reasons I again looked at many of the beliefs to see what had the most merit. I addressed some of this with my first response on this thread but I'll VERY briefly mention big hurdles I found for the ones you mentioned.
-Hinduism: Some really great ideas, and I actually heard this was the second choice for CS Lewis when he decided he wasn't an atheist. But in the end it teaches that all paths are true and ways to enlightenment, which can't be possible if some paths teach that they are the only way. It's illogical and contradictory.
-Muslim: Claims that the Old Testament and the Gospels were inspired by God but then contradicts them. That doesn't make sense to me, especially since the Qur'an was dictated by one guy.
-Jews: They have the best, most coherent, evidence but did not accept that Jesus fulfilled all of their prophesies because they wanted someone to come take over and rule an actual political kingdom. If I believed Jewish teaching I would have to believe the new testament too, and therefor not be Jewish.
-Ancient Egyptians and many similar ancient religions: To be short, they offer to reason for God(s) to even make people or tolerate people in the first place.
-Scientology: I think it sounds more like a self help program made by people than anything given by God.

I would love if those people, who already acknowledge that there's something bigger than themselves, would come to know Jesus.

I admire your resolute. But your critical thinking is lacking.

You answer the questions with citations from the Bible. Sorry, but the Bible can be used to "explain" or justify anything.

Well crap, I'm pretty much out of luck then. I would say, though, that I've thought about this stuff pretty hard and critically.

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2016 - 04:21pm PT

Ask A Christian. LOL Good name for a new route...

Ha! We can put it next to "Dark Angels Have More Fun!"

MisterE

Gym climber

Small Town with a Big Back Yard

Mar 30, 2016 - 04:26pm PT

This is a really great troll,

why would I ask a Christian about anything?

Each answer is different, depending on the person - and this is not even a person.

It's an avatar on a climbing forum.

Duh.

Good troll though, as I said.

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber

San Francisco

Mar 30, 2016 - 04:49pm PT

Ha! We can put it next to "Dark Angels Have More Fun!"

Or next to Modern Guilt. However, when I can get anyone to hike so far, I don't argue!

It is a good question, 'why ask one person?' As Daniel will have a different view than other Christians, or so called Christians. My beef with organized religion is that holy water will not burn through the people who wear crosses and are actually complete pieces of sh#t. If humans use religion to bring their best out, it is great. I know it helps people get over all sorts of addictions, deal with hardships of life, influences them to contribute positive actions to society, but some use it to deceive, belittle and hurt others emotionally and physically, which is not ok. I know Daniel, been in stressful situations with him and met his family. If all religious (no matter Christian or something else) people were as nice as him, there would likely not be war on earth and it would be a better place. So unfortunately what you will hear from Daniel does not extend onto other Christians by default. For some it is nothing but a label or a way to fit in the community they are a part of. All that one could do is start effecting the world with own actions, so I have to admit Daniel is the good Christian to have. But don't believe me, who knows what sort of crazy sh#t he does in his basement....

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber

San Francisco

Mar 30, 2016 - 05:00pm PT

-Scientology

This may or may not be true, but I heard the higher ranked Scientologists believe there is a space ship coming to save those who believe in Scientology. The higher the rank, the quicker you will be saved and to advance your rank you donate more funds to the church of Scientology. Seems convenient. Pay us more money, you will be one of the first to survive! As with, come to the church on a Sunday, donate more money and we will forgive your sins so that you can go to heaven. When there is any financial or gain of power involved, I personally see some conflict as those two should not mix with spirituality. If there is a higher power, it should feel what is on my mind no matter if I talk to it within a man-made church, or on top of Mt. Whitney. Not trying to say I have any answers, but no matter what you follow, don't be a d#@&%e-bag, or at least recognize that you were and do your best to be as positive to those around as you can. We all have own hell to deal with and own skeletons in our closet, but it is important to face them in a civil matter without hurting those around...

d-know

Trad climber

electric lady land

Mar 30, 2016 - 05:52pm PT

Miracles and divine intervention
defy logic and reason.

As such, used to govern
is absurd and dangerous.

Why?

Love and respect.

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Mar 30, 2016 - 05:58pm PT

What should we do with all the new Reagan ranches and millions of homeless folks?

should the Government be vindictive towards the poor?
and make it easier to fall into a pitiful despair because the jobs have disappeared due to conservative policies.

or can the Government provide the needed resources that are paid by our taxes,

the church will never be able to afford the needed funds for the millions that need help

Can you address this?
Should we cast them aside, or use the Government to provide a safety net?

Fossil climber

Trad climber

Atlin, B. C.

Mar 30, 2016 - 06:02pm PT

Perhaps you can respond to this argument - it is often put forward but I have yet to hear a logical answer:

Is God omnipotent? Did he create everything?

Did he create the thousands of terrible diseases, birth defects, all the horrible maladies that humans are subject to whether they are believers or not, and whether or not they have had any hand in causing them?

Could he prevent non-anthropogenic natural disasters such as eruptions, tsunamis?

Why, if he is a “loving God”, does he allow humans to slaughter and torture each other as horribly as they have done throughout history?

IF he is indeed omnipotent and loves mankind, he could refuse to allow such suffering.

IF he is omnipotent but will not prevent it, then he is a monster almost beyond comprehension.

IF he can not prevent it then he is not omnipotent and is ineffectual.

Just askin’.

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Denver, CO

Mar 30, 2016 - 06:18pm PT

Faith is not about reason, logic or evidence....things that promote discussion.

What a ridiculous generalization.

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Denver, CO

Mar 30, 2016 - 06:24pm PT

Fossil, that's the famous "problem of evil," and you are vastly oversimplifying the nature of the problem. It is a philosophical question, so you'd have to get serious about the philosophical literature surrounding the question if you genuinely care to get clear about it.

There are at least two versions of it:

1) The "logical" version.

2) The "intuitive" or "practical" version.

For (1) see Alvin Plantinga, who is almost universally considered to have answered it.

For (2), I can tell you that I struggle with it myself. The intuitions driving the question are deep-seated, and even a wholly adequate logical response, as Plantinga has provided, does not "satisfy" the "sense" that "God could have done better" in some way.

But, to really discuss this, you'd have to at least be clear about which version of the problem you are talking about. Most people conflate the two, and it takes entirely different (almost unrelated) discussions to address the two (and other subtly different) versions.

Gary

Social climber

Where in the hell is Major Kong?

Mar 30, 2016 - 07:18pm PT

Some people think that Pharoah hardened his own heart and God used it for his purposes.

Some people may think that, but my Bible specifically says that God did it.

Either way, would anyone have ever heard of the slaves that asked to leave and were given permission and then walked around in the desert?

So that's why all those innocent Egyptians had to die? Why not just announce to everyone on Earth via a burning bush?

Skeptimistic

Mountain climber

La Mancha

Mar 30, 2016 - 07:38pm PT

Here's some fun(die) logic for us to chew on regarding bible inconsistencies reported on fstdt.com:

Here’s a critical point to grasp: if your trust was fully anchored in your Creators the way it’s supposed to be, then it wouldn’t matter that the Bible isn’t perfect. The degree to which you feel stressed over all of the errors we’re pointing out to you is the degree to which you’re still depending on the book to guide you in life. You can’t depend on a book. You need to be depending entirely on Yahweh, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. If you’re going to get far with Them, then every obstacle that is standing between you and total dependency on Them must be torn down. That’s why They have intentionally preserved a collection of records that are so full of wrong theology and bad examples. Our Gods knew we humans would try to turn the book into an idol that we could replace Them with, so They made sure to riddle the book with idiotic thinking and such glaring errors that we’d be forced to stop worshiping it if we ever started down the road of honest seeking, and we can’t get anywhere with our Gods until we are honest.

Anna Diehl , The Pursuit of God

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Mar 30, 2016 - 07:44pm PT

The Cult Test
Questions 1 to 100

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q0.html

91. Use of the Cognitive Dissonance Technique.
• 92. Grandiose existence. Bombastic, Grandiose Claims.
• 93. Black And White Thinking
• 94. The use of heavy-duty mind control and rapid conversion techniques.
• 95. Threats of bodily harm or death to someone who leaves the group.
• 96. Threats of bodily harm or death to someone who criticizes the group.
• 97. Appropriation of all of the members' worldly wealth.
• 98. Making cult members work long hours for free.
• 99. Total immersion and total isolation.
• 100. Mass suicide.

Fossil climber

Trad climber

Atlin, B. C.

Mar 30, 2016 - 07:53pm PT

Thanks, Madbolter - I'd still like to hear a response.

Contractor

Boulder climber

Mar 30, 2016 - 08:18pm PT

Madbolter- Would you employ the same arguments for Zues or Thor?
Why would Religious persons argue, what is nothing more than mythology to many of us?

I personally construe rampant public promotion of personal faith to non believers as a fault line in your own beliefs.

Conversely, It's been proven that bacteria can survive space travel- we and all life, are believed to have evolved from a form of bacteria. Can atheist be so certain that a higher intelligence is not involved in our origin or "creation"? Do we not plant seeds?

Norton

Social climber

Mar 30, 2016 - 08:27pm PT

Can atheist be so certain that a higher intelligence is not involved in our origin or "creation"?

I think the Atheist position is that "a higher intelligence" is not necessary to explain
our specie's existence, but that evolution over billions of years is much more plausible

Brandon-

climber

The Granite State.

Mar 30, 2016 - 08:31pm PT

My .02, not that anyone cares.

Religion is bunk. All major religions have the same moral code, translated differently according to local nuances.

Something connects all humans, but it's not one god. It's the desire to be safe, happy, and connected in some way to our fellow humans. We have sought a simple, single point solution to these desires because it gives us a neatly wrapped answer, despite the fact that the answer isn't simple at all. Humans are complex.

It's our brains that are our gods, not some unseen deity. Many simply fail to see this because they are blinded by a misplaced faith.

I eschew religion, but love my fellow humans.

Proselytizing is bad, and shouldn't be done.

Edit: Hey Dean, nice to see you posting. Don't go, your voice is missed here.

Contractor

Boulder climber

Mar 30, 2016 - 08:44pm PT

Norton- agreed but agnostic works better for me.

Ian- I may have contributed to Madbolter's previous meltdown. I'm bored and hoping, at this very moment, he is furiously creating a wrathful, massive wall of text for cheap entertainment.

Brandon-

climber

The Granite State.

Mar 30, 2016 - 08:52pm PT

Humans are complex, Ian.

I've never talked politics or religion with Cragman. We share a love of mountains and building and that's enough for me to want him to stick around.

Karen

Trad climber

Prescott, AZ ~ God's country!!!!

Mar 30, 2016 - 08:56pm PT

If I kill myself will I go to Hell?

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Denver, CO

Mar 30, 2016 - 09:17pm PT

IF he is indeed omnipotent and loves mankind, he could refuse to allow such suffering.

IF he is omnipotent but will not prevent it, then he is a monster almost beyond comprehension.

IF he can not prevent it then he is not omnipotent and is ineffectual.

The logical version states that either "God" as defined by His "omni" attributes does not exist, or that one (or more) of His "omni" attributes is not actually omni.

Rather than reiterate Plantinga's response, which is involved, I'll just sum up to say that this version of the problem of evil depends upon a modal confusion. Plantinga cleared up the confusion, and the vast majority of philosophers today believe that there is not a sustainable logical version of the problem.

However, the intuitive version is indeed troubling, as we "just know" (from our limited empirical evidence) that "God could have done better." I've felt the pain and the intuitions emerging from it very poignantly in my own life.

I don't claim (nor does anybody I know) to have "the answer," simply because intuitions have to be educated, and it takes different evidence for different people.

That said, I do think that Plantinga's "free will defense" not only resolves the logical version of the problem but offers some key insight into the intuitive version.

First, we do not understand the nature of evil fully, but we do know that it emerged as a function of free will. Thus, the ultimate responsibility rests on the shoulders of beings who exercised their free will to turn to evil. That has had far more sweeping effects than we really grasp, and the causal chains are long, subtle, and we see only a few of the links.

Second, God has much "longer view" and plan to resolve the problem than we realize. Consider that what He has to juggle is: A) The problem in principle emerges from free will, yet He is committed to genuine free will; B) He has to produce an ultimate resolution to the evil in His universe such that it never arises again.

He cannot obtain (B) as long as (A), and Plantinga's successful "free will defense" shows that there is a logical (modal) relation between free will and the possibility of evil. Thus, as long as (A), it seems that (B) is impossible in principle. Yet God is committed to (A). Hmmm!

However, this is merely a paradox rather than a contradiction. To see how, we would have to delve deeply into both modal logic and the nature of the relations between the distinctions of a priori and a posteriori knowledge, and the distinctions between necessity and contingency.

I'm not "blowing smoke" to "evade" the "answer" here! It's just that it really is the case that "armchair philosophers" really struggle when philosophy becomes genuinely technical. And that's why it's so hard to be a philosopher on these forums. When I even START, I'm accused of "walls of text." When I try to "condense," there are necessarily holes, because it's impossible to be philosophically rigorous "in a nutshell."

So, I really am torn. There really is no "simple" way to "sum up" how an answer can be procured. I'd love to "nutshell" it, but I'm also not willing to do a piss-poor job of it. So, sadly, in a forum context, there is just no way I can see to "educate your intuitions" as they'd need to be.

IMHO and that of many other rigorously trained philosophers, there are perfectly acceptable answers to even the intuitive version of the problem of evil. How deep down the rabbit hole are you ready to go to see what the basis of such answers might be? How many lengthy forum posts are you prepared to not just skim but really contemplate?

:-)

Klimmer

Mountain climber

Mar 30, 2016 - 09:32pm PT

Mar 30, 2016 - 08:56pm PT
If I kill myself will I go to Hell?

Karen, I seriously hope that isn't a cry for help and you're just asking metaphorically.

Seriously, suicide is nothing to tease about. We aren't supposed to take our own lives. Our lives are not our own. We have Family and Friends that we are responsible to. And we are responsible to
G-d. Suicide should never be considered an option.

However, there are circumstances where G-d would understand. 9-11 and the building is on fire and you chose to jump rather than be burned alive. I think G-d would understand, and you better be praying all the way on the way down.

Curt

climber

Gold Canyon, AZ

Mar 30, 2016 - 10:06pm PT

hey dude , please do not ask Madbolter any questions , or he will unleash a tsunami of pretentiously intellectual nonsense on you that will leave us all dazed and confused , please retract your question and hope that he missed your post because he has already left to go to his MENSA meeting

Haha. You won't find many religious people at MENSA meetings.

Curt

Fritz

Trad climber

Choss Creek, ID

Mar 30, 2016 - 10:09pm PT

I don't have a question.

limpingcrab! You put this thread up in an attempt to convert some of us to your Christian theology & ways.

It really isn't a question & answer thread, but a forum for you and your fellow Christians to spew Christine doctrine at us non-Christian sinners.

Moosedrool put up what may be the best rebuttal to your BS, but your thread belongs on another forum than this one.

Moosedrool:

Limping...
I admire your resolute. But your critical thinking is lacking.

You answer the questions with citations from the Bible. Sorry, but the Bible can be used to "explain" or justify anything. It is not the book of truths, just a collection of various philosophies of many people with a common theme, God. Many verses are very insightful and helpful, but most are outdated, as the book was written long time ago.

The 10 Commandments are still important today to most people, Christians or not (except for believing in The God, of course). But, most of the world's population is non-christian. They have their own system of believes, and they are doing no worse than Christians.

We are all looking for answers in this strange world. I hope you find your's.

I don't have any answers, I am trying to live my life without hurting other people. That's the best I can do.Moose

Here's some of what I worship, & I don't believe any of those places were created by your mythical god.

brotherbbock

climber

Alta Loma, CA

Mar 30, 2016 - 10:10pm PT

A lot of questions....

Not a lot of answers...

Brandon-

climber

The Granite State.

Mar 30, 2016 - 10:13pm PT

Fritz, chill man. I never got the impression that Limpingcrab was trying to convert anyone.

Rule number one in life should be; never judge others for what they believe. Disagree, but accept that their feelings are legit.

WBraun

climber

Mar 30, 2016 - 10:13pm PT

IF he is omnipotent but will not prevent it, then he is a monster almost beyond comprehension.

He tries to prevent it 24/7 eternally, but you fools never listen except to your own stupid minds.

Thus you're like stoopid little kids who are told not to stick your finger in the moving fan, but do so anyways.

What can be done then?

You're just plain stoopid and thus get hurt and then blame God .....

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2016 - 10:39pm PT

why would I ask a Christian about anything?

Each answer is different, depending on the person - and this is not even a person.

It's an avatar on a climbing forum.

Because we have all the answers, duh! :)

Hi, I'm Daniel Jeffcoach, and I kind of look like an avatar with a big head.

My beef with organized religion is that holy water will not burn through the people who wear crosses and are actually complete pieces of sh#t.

That's definitely a problem. I try to tell people to judge Christianity by Christ, not Christians. Christ is the example and he despised hypocrisy more than anything (Matthew 15:7-9).

All that one could do is start effecting the world with own actions, so I have to admit Daniel is the good Christian to have. But don't believe me, who knows what sort of crazy sh#t he does in his basement....

I don't have a basement, all the crazy stuff is in my attic. PS. thanks for the compliments, maybe I'll actually pay attention next time you're on belay.

Miracles and divine intervention
defy logic and reason.

As such, used to govern
is absurd and dangerous.

Why?

Love and respect.

I agree, love and respect are the primary teaching of Jesus (Galatians 5:14)

I can't speak for what the government should do, but I believe God uses them (Romans 13, though it focuses on using the government to punish). What I do think is that Jesus teaches to take care of the poor so we should try (Proverbs 19:17). I guess it could be argued that we should do whatever we can to help those in need, whether it be politically or personally (2nd Corinthians 9:7, 1st John 3:17). Good question.

Really common question among Christians and probably anyone who lives on earth. Obviously I don't have God's mind and nobody can perfectly understand what He is doing (1st Corinthians 13:12), but here is what I believe based on what the bible teaches.
-God created the world carefully for people, without sin, but with free will. People exercised that free will and chose to learn of good and evil (Genesis)
-Because of this, nobody is actually innocent for we have all sinned and have sin in our nature, that is, the tendency to follow our desires instead of God (Romans 3:23). By this definition, nobody who has been born is innocent.
-He uses suffering to draw us close to Him so that we rely on Him. If you think you have everything figured out you're likely to be arrogant and not realize you need a relationship with Jesus (2nd Corinthians 4:16-18)
-It refines our faith in Jesus (1 Peter 1:7)
-It keeps our focus on the eternal perspective rather than our current issues (Romans 8:18)

On a personal note from what I have seen, people living in incomprehensible suffering with strong faith in Jesus are some of the most joyful people I have ever met. I have slept on the dirt with people's animals that keep them warm at night and been greeted by their giant smiles in the morning, though they also suffer from serious health issues. Some people say God is a crutch that people use to deal with suffering, and I believe that he loves to be exactly that for us. He wants us to give him our burdens (1st Peter 5:7)

Maybe that's still illogical, but so is suffering and dying for people that have rejected you.

Wouldn't it be cool if the religious organizations used their DONATIONS for the good of the people, instead of...

Yup

Some people think that Pharoah hardened his own heart and God used it for his purposes.

Some people may think that, but my Bible specifically says that God did it.

I guess it depends on how you interpret the original language, but I agree with you.

So that's why all those innocent Egyptians had to die? Why not just announce to everyone on Earth via a burning bush?

True, but as history shows, even people who see all of the miracles will turn their backs on God. So it may not be that simple (Exodus).

I believe the Bible was inspired by God and that relying on its teachings is relying on God (2nd Timothy 3:16-17)

I didn't read the survey but that list makes it look like following Jesus isn't a cult (Matthew 5:44). Sweet!

the bottom line is its all about the love that God has for all of us.

Amen, I hope I'm not complicating this main idea as I try to address some questions.

If I kill myself will I go to Hell?

I believe that depends on whether or not you have accepted the love of Jesus (Romans 10:9-10).

Haha. You won't find many religious people at MENSA meetings.

Oh contraire, 90% of Nobel Prize laureates in the 20th century associated themselves with some sort of religious belief. nobelist.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/50-nobelists.pdf

limpingcrab! You put this thread up in an attempt to convert some of us to your Christian theology & ways.

Sorry if it comes across that way, I just saw a lot of weird ideas going around about faith in Jesus and thought some people might want to ask one of us crazy people. Looks like some people did have questions. It's also good for me to really think about what I believe...

PS. Jesus loved heading into the wilderness too! (Luke 5:16, one of my favorites and what I tell people when I skip church :)

Karen

Trad climber

Prescott, AZ ~ God's country!!!!

Mar 31, 2016 - 07:43am PT

You are correct Klimmer that we have a responsibility to others not to take our own lives, it is what I struggle with. The pain is just so deep at times it feels like the only way out is to just end it. Having two kids is what keeps me here.
People tell me to have faith in God and his spirit will bring joy but for whatever reason I am not able to do this. I try and try.

Flip Flop

climber

Earth Planet, Universe

Mar 31, 2016 - 07:47am PT

Go to a cult site you fancy imagining cultists. Creepy Zombie Cult weirdos. Start another war! Your minds are so interesting...Not.

Poor victims of childhood indoctrination to a terror cult.

this just in

climber

Justin Ross from North Fork

Mar 31, 2016 - 08:02am PT

So many of the stories in the Bible are borrowed from religions and people before them, so much so that in today's world they'd get sued for plagiarism.

Limpingcrab you say Jesus despised hypocrites then say that love and forgiveness were his biggest teachings. If the man did in fact exist, I think he was an example of what humans could be and despising anything would not have been apart of him.

One thing that I never understood was why God is referred to being a He. If anything I'd think it is an energy that is in everything and resembles nothing like a human or our emotions. If God is capable of love than he also can hate. I don't think energy can do either.

Some people need religion and I'm fine with that, but I think it is part of the problem in dividing us as humans. Try to do more good than bad and accept people as they are, because we are all living different lives.

I am destined for hell according to the Bible, because I don't accept Jesus as my Savior. I think salvation is up to each of us and Hell is in what we need to learn next go around on this perfect chaotic dream.

Daniel I don't see you as a good Christian, I see you as a great person and respect your faith that you feel is right. Namaste and sh#t.

John M

climber

Mar 31, 2016 - 08:34am PT

If God is capable of love than he also can hate.

God isn't capable of love. He is Love. there is no hate in Love. I realize that that is a subtle difference. But it is an important one. How could Love.. be hate? It can't. Therefore God is not capable of hate. It is impossible. Can God know what hate is? Certainly. But He/She is not capable of it. Therefore God does not hate the hypocrite, nor even the hypocritical action. What those teachers were trying to express and maybe not doing a great job of it, or perhaps translations are not able to handle the subtleties is that hypocrisy can not exist in the presence of the Lord. If it comes before the Lord, then it is wiped out instantly, even before the full presence of the Lord comes into that place. This is a difficult concept to teach because words have limitations, and God does not. So if one has hypocritical actions, or beliefs, then depending on how attached one is to those actions, then that can keep one from the presence of the Lord. This is what it means in the story of creation in Genesis that Adam and Eve hid from God after they had broken God's rules for them. Not that God doesn't want to Love that person, and not that God doesn't Love that person, but that that person is now incapable of receiving God's Love, as they have put up a block to it. They put up the block, not God. God will not force a person to accept his Love. There is no forcefulness in Love. Therefore it is always up to us to turn back towards God and once again become capable of receiving God's Love. That is what repentance is, the turning around and facing God. Once you do that, then you can once again receive all that God Is. What people don't understand from that point is that we have many many areas within that have turned from God. So it is not one act that heals everything. But many many times that one must recognize the point when they turned from God, and then remake that decision. The Buddha taught that it was a million decisions that took us away from God, and therefore to come back into the full presence of God, we must make a million correct decisions. But once again, that is not a black and white teaching and the process of making one million correct decisions is not a straight line. in that process, we will make mistakes. Mistakes are not sins. Being attached to that mistake and holding onto it once one realizes the mistake is a sin. We do not have to be perfect. We are perfected when we turn to God.

STEEVEE

Social climber

HUMBOLDT, CA

Mar 31, 2016 - 08:58am PT

John, that was a beautiful way to say, ' It is what it is'.

this just in

climber

Justin Ross from North Fork

Mar 31, 2016 - 09:02am PT

Enjoyed reading your reasoning John M. You argue your point very well and I like how you included Buddha. I think love and hate are polar opposites of the same thing, but see it as a human emotion though.

I like your interpretation of God as love, but fail to see how the Bible's God should be feared and some of his(using biblical terms here even though I failed to capitalize) actions are anything but loving.

I feel if Jesus did exist today he wouldn't identify himself as a Christian, he'd most likely be a Taoist or Buddhist.

WBraun

climber

Mar 31, 2016 - 09:20am PT

I feel if Jesus did exist today he wouldn't identify himself as a Christian

The true definition of Christian is "One who Loves God"

Has nothing to do with Buddhist, Muslim, Christian etc etc

Those material designations are due to poor fund of knowledge.

Jesus Christ is eternal and never ever left nor is he ever dead.

The consciousness of Jesus Christ is always there thus he never died nor ever left.

The illusion of birth and death is created by your very own imperfect material senses.

Attributing a material body to an eternally liberated soul is another poor fund of knowledge.

John M

climber

Mar 31, 2016 - 09:38am PT

but fail to see how the Bible's God should be feared

I believe that in most places where the bible uses the term "fear".. it should be translated as "awe".

So the Psalms that many translate as saying: "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom". It should say:

Awe of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

Else why would the bible say over and over. Fear not, for I am with you. God has no desire for anyone to fear Him/Her.

The thing is, awe does not come from words alone. It comes from experience. If you have no awe of God, then you have turned you back on God and thus have no experience of God. At that point, one can only experience God through God's creation, and since we as humans have dominion of this portion of God's creation, we can screw it up and make it even more difficult to know God. For the most part, humans are walking away from God.

...

As for the question of why God does not stop natural disasters. One would have to understand reincarnation, free will, and karma to understand the interaction. God has stepped in many many times. People just aren't aware of his actions as they have turned from Him/Her. This world would have been destroyed and become unloveable many times over if God had not stepped in. But God would not take away our opportunity to learn from our mistakes, so He/She allows us to experience them. To stop all natural disasters would be like the parent who overprotects his/her child from the consequences of their actions. They end up spoiled as evidenced by some kids whose parents buy them out of every predicament that they put themselves into. Unless they learn from their mistakes, then many of them end up destroyed.

And yes, our actions have a physical effect on this world as everything is energy and is thus interconnected. Though in the gross material world it is not so obvious. Its hard to imagine rock as energy. Yet if you apply enough energy to it, you can change it.

John M

climber

Mar 31, 2016 - 09:50am PT

then why do you read it? aren't you one of those who over and over have told us on this forum that if people don't like non climbing topics, then don't read them?

Don't read what I write. Use that script that blocks you from seeing my posts if you have no control.

Abide by your own teachings..

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Mar 31, 2016 - 09:51am PT

How do you know God is Love?

What does Love have to do with anything?

You do realize that the universe is huge and our little planet of loving humans are so insignificant to anything beyond our own minds

Where Dinosaurs part of the Love story? do bacteria love?

Love is not even a quantifiable emotion.
Love can't even be completely defined
Is it more than just a warm and fuzzy feeling?
are you sure?, tell us exactly what it is than

this whole notion of God and love is a totally fabricated ideology.

John M

climber

Mar 31, 2016 - 09:59am PT

I apologize if you are not one of those who said to just ignore posts that you don't like. But I will also not shut up.

Curt

climber

Gold Canyon, AZ

Mar 31, 2016 - 10:12am PT

The true definition of Christian is "One who Loves God"

I think most Christians would disagree with that definition.

Curt

John M

climber

Mar 31, 2016 - 10:14am PT

yep.. its that thread.

By the way Locker.. It took me just a few moments to find this post written by you. Just searched your posts using the word "ignore". Unless of course someone else posting as you made that post. ;-)

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1747712&msg=1750034#msg1750034

Never said not to suggest improvements...

Simply stated that IMO it's working FINE and needs no improvements (the Forum, not the site)...

EDITED:

"A nice filter and some different post display rankings would be very useful tools for many folks"...

A BANDAID!!!...

MIGHT do them better to deal with their INNER issues and why the fuk something as simple as an internet forum bothers them so...

It really is as easy as DON'T OPEN A THREAD that isn't interesting to you...

and if you open it and don't like what someone has posted...

MOVE ON!!!...

How fuking hard is that???...

But people STAY put and FOCUS on what bothers them...

They HYPER FOCUS and COMPLAIN and WHINE and CRY...

When all they have to do is just IGNORE it...

WBraun

climber

Mar 31, 2016 - 10:15am PT

Lockers toast!!!

Caught dead in his very own hypocritical Bullsh!t ......

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Mar 31, 2016 - 10:19am PT

Let's all take a chill pill and keep this thread civil

I can't wait for all my questions to be answered

like what happened to Cosmic?

STEEVEE

Social climber

HUMBOLDT, CA

Mar 31, 2016 - 10:20am PT

To stop all natural disasters would be like the parent who overprotects his/her child from the consequences of their actions. They end up spoiled as evidenced by some kids whose parents buy them out of every predicament that they put themselves into. Unless they learn from their mistakes, then many of them end up destroyed.

John, you had me at 'It is what It is', but now your anthropomorphic bullshit material just got in the way.
The lesson is not taught by the teacher, it is learned.

Curt

climber

Gold Canyon, AZ

Mar 31, 2016 - 10:26am PT

Problem there is they fuking flat out DON'T know...

Much like whether or not Trump's hair is real...

Curt

John M

climber

Mar 31, 2016 - 10:27am PT

Fair enough Locker.. I ain't really pissed at you.

What does Heaven look like and where exactly is it???...

Where is Hell???...

Does GOD really wear a white robe???...

Why do GODS representatives molest young children, and still get to go to HEAVEN???...

I have had a few visions of heaven. I wish that I had the ability to help you see what I have seen. I believe a campfire would be the better place to try and share that vision. After a great day outdoors.

Heaven is not exactly a place, but rather a state of Being. It exists all around us and even within us, but our own energy blocks us from experiencing it.

Hell is also all around us, and we experience it when we turn from God. We create Hell. God did not create it.

....

as for those who molest children. They will not see heaven unless they repent and turn from those ways. And repentance isn't something you just do at the last second. It takes those million right decisions that the Buddha talked about. This is why understanding reincarnation is so important. I assure you that everyone including priests has to experience the karma that they create. Its just that its also possible to put off karma. But that is black magic and actually creates even more karma. No one escapes their karma.

Sorry Locker, but you did ask.. heh heh..

John M

climber

Mar 31, 2016 - 10:30am PT

Stevee.. its for the best as I never said "it is what it is". Thats what you chose to hear through you own judgments.

STEEVEE

Social climber

HUMBOLDT, CA

Mar 31, 2016 - 10:37am PT

That's true. I was lazy and trying to refer to your "God is Love " statement earlier using my few words instead of you own. My apologies.
Anyway, I have some questions.

What is karma?
Does "God" judge?

STEEVEE

Social climber

HUMBOLDT, CA

Mar 31, 2016 - 10:48am PT

Beliefs are passed on from generation to generation...

Sorry Locker. I'm hijacking your statement which spurred as thought...or question for John.

Can karma be passed onto your children?

John M

climber

Mar 31, 2016 - 10:54am PT

What is karma?
Does "God" judge?

last question that I will answer today.. for the most part. hahaha.. I don't want to fully hijack Daniel's thread.

Karma is the energy created by belief/action. So there is positive karma and negative karma, depending on what you hope to achieve. If you want to climb hard, but you sit on the sofa all day, then you will create karma that keeps you from achieving your goal. So get up off the sofa and stop posting to the taco.

Of course God judges. Its just that He/She judges righteously and not from the lower ego. The admonition to not judge, as found in the bible, goes on to say that as you judge, so shall you be judged. So of course one should judge, but make certain that they are judging righteously. Hopefully you choose your climbing partners wisely. That is a form of judgment. as in.. I will climb with that person, not because they are this are that skin color, but because they have safe habits and are reliable. I will not climb with that person, or at least not allow them to belay me because they are careless. That is judgment and is appropriate. But as I said, one must always be careful how one judges and from what state of mind that one judges.

Now.. because I hope to be able to do something other then sit on sofas all day. I will head to the gym.

STEEVEE

Social climber

HUMBOLDT, CA

Mar 31, 2016 - 10:57am PT

Does the Lord care if you spot a moron?

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Topic Author's Reply - Mar 31, 2016 - 01:30pm PT

Limpingcrab you say Jesus despised hypocrites then say that love and forgiveness were his biggest teachings. If the man did in fact exist, I think he was an example of what humans could be and despising anything would not have been apart of him.

Good call, I meant to say hypocrisy, not hypocrites, and edited it.

One thing that I never understood was why God is referred to being a He. If anything I'd think it is an energy that is in everything and resembles nothing like a human or our emotions. If God is capable of love than he also can hate. I don't think energy can do either.

I think it just originates from the word being used in the Bible. Because of that, that's what I use but I don't think it changes the message if a different word is used. When I was a kid I visited some missionaries that prayed to "Mother God" and my siblings and were really young and got totally confused. It was really funny at the time.

Daniel I don't see you as a good Christian, I see you as a great person and respect your faith that you feel is right. Namaste and sh#t.

Thank you!

John M

I appreciate all of your responses and it's not my place to try to argue, even if we disagree on some stuff (Romans 14:1-5). I believe Jesus and his love is the focal point and the rest is just details, which seems to be your view as well.

I feel if Jesus did exist today he wouldn't identify himself as a Christian, he'd most likely be a Taoist or Buddhist.

I believe he would think of himself as Jewish :)

How do you know God is Love?

I believe that's what it says in 1st John 4:8.

What does Love have to do with anything?

I believe it's everything (Matthew 22:37-40)

Where Dinosaurs part of the Love story? do bacteria love?

I believe that Humans are unique in that we have eternal souls (Genesis 1:27)

Why do you keep posting total BULLSH!T and making false claims???...

I believe Romans 10:14. I also believe I like to see posts with lots of bold and extra spaces ;)

What does Heaven look like and where exactly is it???...

I believe it's really pretty, with walls and gates and roads and a river and a mountain (hopefully with good granite) and God will be there and we will be in his presence (Revelation). I also believe it's somewhere in the upward direction because Jesus ascended to it (Acts 1:9-12)

Where is Hell???...

I don't know, it's referred to as a pit, downward, and also as the unseen. I believe it will be apart from God, and that's the sad part (2nd Thessalonians 1:9)

Does GOD really wear a white robe???...

I believe bright write usually symbolizes purity and when Jesus was shown to be God he was wearing white (Matthew 17:2), so maybe?

Why do GODS representatives molest young children, and still get to go to HEAVEN???...

I believe humans are sinful (Romans 3:23) but that Jesus paid the price for our sins so that we can be forgiven (Romans 4:25). But in the end, God will judge (Romans 2:6).

Problem there is they fuking flat out DON'T know...

Not to get all philosophical, but I don't believe anyone can KNOW anything, but we can believe based on our experiences.

Does "God" judge?

I believe he does (Isaiah 33:22)

Can karma be passed onto your children?

I believe when parents do wrong it can affect their children, like being abusive or going to prison. Pretty much earthly consequences. I also believe God has blessed families because of the parents, but I do not believe that there are eternal consequences for anything other than what you do yourself (Ezekiel 18:20)

Does the Lord care if you spot a moron?

I don't believe he cares if we do, but I believe he give us some advice on dealing with them (or ourselves?) (Proverbs 26)

Norton

Social climber

Mar 31, 2016 - 01:37pm PT

Well

That about wraps it up!

Shiho

Trad climber

Salt Lake City

Mar 31, 2016 - 01:41pm PT

Thanks for the replies, limpingcrab.

I would like to go back to the great prayer experiment that I mentioned earlier. So ok God doesn't want to be tested, I get it. But some people died because of the consequence, then? Those people who were prayed for and knew about it were selected randomly for the experiment. At the end, they had to pay the price even though it wasn't their idea to test God? Why the cruelty?

I think most of my friends will go to hell at this rate because they are agnostic/atheist. Do I get to hang out with them when I die?

Norton

Social climber

Mar 31, 2016 - 02:03pm PT

There is an old saying that seems quite applicable here.....

Extraordinary Claims Require Extraordinary Proofs.....

This dude abides and has great style and technique, his DNA is 98% same as ours

Karen

Trad climber

Prescott, AZ ~ God's country!!!!

Mar 31, 2016 - 02:08pm PT

I was raised southern baptist and a deep indoctrination occurred in my psyche that has forever haunted me, I don't want to go to hell.
But there sure is a lot of Hell here on this planet. I wish I somehow could have the faith that I see other Christians seem to exude, they fully believe and appear to me to carry more peace.
I really do rebel against all the sinning the bible preaches, I carry enough shame around me as it is.

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Topic Author's Reply - Mar 31, 2016 - 02:18pm PT

I would like to go back to the great prayer experiment that I mentioned earlier. So ok God doesn't want to be tested, I get it. But some people died because of the consequence, then? Those people who were prayed for and knew about it were selected randomly for the experiment. At the end, they had to pay the price even though it wasn't their idea to test God? Why the cruelty?

What, they did that with a terminal illness! That's messed up. I think you should ask the experimenters about the cruelty, they at least were told not to do this in the bible (Matthew 4:7). If the subjects knew they were part of the experiment, well, people die for making bad decisions all the time.

I think most of my friends will go to hell at this rate because they are agnostic/atheist. Do I get to hang out with them when I die?

I have no sort of reason to believe this, other than the fact that hell will be a lot of suffering, but I think it will be a lonely place. Lonely but with people all around, if you know the feeling.

ag·nos·tic

/aɡˈnästik/

noun

noun: agnostic; plural noun: agnostics

1. a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena...

I think my beliefs fall under the category of faith.
noun
noun: faith

1.
complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
"this restores one's faith in politicians"
synonyms: trust, belief, confidence, conviction; More
optimism, hopefulness, hope
"he justified his boss's faith in him"
antonyms: mistrust
2.
strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

Extraordinary Claims Require Extraordinary Proofs.....

I'll turn the tables for a second because I have a question I always wonder about. Let's say, 2000 years ago, Jesus did everything that is written in the Bible and everything he said was true. What sort of proof would be acceptable? I won't pursue this tangent very far, but I am curious.

Norton

Social climber

Mar 31, 2016 - 02:45pm PT

Pics or it didn't happen...

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Mar 31, 2016 - 02:51pm PT

If the story in the bible is all true, then we would be able to find historical evidence, and the same magic that Jesus was able to conjure would be common place.

There is No historical evidence, there is no evidence that the laws of nature can violated, we are supposed to believe that intervention from God was going on left and right back then, and only then and not anymore,
and a great liberal being respected as the Man God but now he's not a liberal but instead a conservative that wants to shame the poor and make sure women can't get birth control???

It's all good to be true
and it only lives in a book, no where else
Jesus is completely unknown outside the bible.
If you were Godistians, then maybe I could go along with it as at least your God is God,
but surrendering to Jesus, the supposed son of God?
It's just to easy to pick apart as being complete BS.

Why pray to someone other than God, that makes no sense?

Why should anyone believe any of it?

and answering our questions with bible quotes makes all the worse
Not a single question was answered in my definition of what would be considered valid

You would think that at least we could know what happened to Cosmic, but that was just swept away with all the other bull

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Mar 31, 2016 - 03:29pm PT

He could not answer these questions, nor can anyone, because their are no answers in the bible to these questions

We can't even define love
so to call God Love is just another way to say you have No idea what's going on

it's all just pandering

Some of us can answer questions
we don't need to pander to an ideology
We can just site the scientific research on the subject which would be valid answer or explanation of the issue in question

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Mar 31, 2016 - 03:51pm PT

I worshipped nothing
are you insane, what kind of BS is this
Why f*#k with me now? I'm just challenging Christians, they asked for it

Did I offend your delicate sensibilities? oh boo hoo

we can't question them anymore?
Did a rod get inserted?
are you the ST PC patrol now?

I'm the one that said we can't define love, so obviously I can't define it as well.

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Mar 31, 2016 - 03:57pm PT

I did ask to challenge Christians, and I will continue to challenge them
and when I get a reasonable response, then I will consider becoming a Christian
or when I have solid evidence for God, I will then believe in him
They have all failed to move the needle

Did I attack anyone personally?
No
I just posted my opinions that many here share
Yet I get attacked,
when do I get to attack back?

Oh I better not, I will leave it be

and BTW, I can add or delete anything I want
at anytime I want

Karen

Trad climber

Prescott, AZ ~ God's country!!!!

Mar 31, 2016 - 04:06pm PT

Craig, what do you put your faith in? And do you have any innate need for spirituality? Just curious, thanks!

WBraun

climber

Mar 31, 2016 - 04:06pm PT

Just log into cloud,

he's up there ..... :-)

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Mar 31, 2016 - 04:08pm PT

I am a spiritual atheist
I "love" life and live in the here and now best I can

I have no faith in anything
nor do I need it
No anything can save you, you have to save yourself

vvvv
can you believe this guy?
do we really need this negativity?
I say pandering and he goes nutso
stock answers that say nothing but appeal to Christian ideology is pandering

He's the only one whining here
poor baby

can't handle a civil debate w/o getting offended I guess
has to bring it down

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Mar 31, 2016 - 04:09pm PT

Fritz

Trad climber

Choss Creek, ID

Mar 31, 2016 - 05:00pm PT

Donini! I LIKE! that photo!

rbord

Boulder climber

atlanta

Mar 31, 2016 - 08:14pm PT

When saying the things that you believe, you often cite a bible verse as the reason that you believe your belief is true.

I believe the Bible was inspired by God and that relying on its teachings is relying on God (2nd Timothy 3:16-17)

But then you also cite a bible verse as the reason that you believe the Bible is true. To me, that sounds like a crazily circular way to form beliefs.

How do you tell the difference between believing that the bible is true because the bible tells you to believe it's true, and you telling yourself to believe that the bible is true because that's what you tell yourself to believe?

cintune

climber

Colorado School of Mimes

Mar 31, 2016 - 08:54pm PT

Fritz

Trad climber

Choss Creek, ID

Mar 31, 2016 - 09:18pm PT

Of course the history of Christianity shows that the faith prospers under oppression.

My perusal of history has taught me that oppressed & challenged Christians are happy Christians, so I expect many more posts on the thread.

Of course, when those that defined themselves as Christians didn’t feel quite as oppressed, they brought our world the dark ages, the ”kill the Jews” crusades from the middle ages to Hitler in WWII, the Spanish conquest of the Americas in the name of Christ, various other wars & killings done in the Name of God, & witch-burnings.

Limpingcrab? Those folks all thought of themselves as good Christians. Do you have an explanation why they will share heaven with you?

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Topic Author's Reply - Mar 31, 2016 - 09:59pm PT

When saying the things that you believe, you often cite a bible verse as the reason that you believe your belief is true.

But then you also cite a bible verse as the reason that you believe the Bible is true. To me, that sounds like a crazily circular way to form beliefs.

How do you tell the difference between believing that the bible is true because the bible tells you to believe it's true, and you telling yourself to believe that the bible is true because that's what you tell yourself to believe?

I see your point and in a way, you're right. Each person who knows Jesus probably has a different answer for this. For me, I believed there had to be some sort of God because of my background in science. Once I reached that point, I read a lot about various beliefs about God and, for some of the reasons I listed in my first response in this thread, I believed that Jesus was the answer. Because I believe the Bible is the word of God and the story of Jesus I use it to form my beliefs. Since then I have experienced what it's like to know and love Jesus. Not to mention how crazy it is that a book can have such a perfect story, from beginning to end, when it was written by so many people in different places at different times. It's easier for me to believe that there is a God than it is for me to believe humans were able to pull it off.

Some people personally experience the power of Jesus and then believe there must be a God. Other people use reason and logic and end up with a belief in Jesus. Books like "C.S. Lewis's Case for Christ" and "The Case For Christ" by Lee Stroble do an amazing job of explaining how they, former athiests, ended up with faith in Jesus. I'd recommend those books to anyone looking for answers about the veracity of the Bible or much more eloquent answers to the questions posed in this thread. They are outstanding books and should be read by anyone who wants to make an educated decision about atheism vs Christianity. Read them alongside books opposing Christianity and see what you think.

I believe heaven is for those that accept the love and forgiveness of Jesus (John 1:12, Romans 10:8-9). The bible also teaches that if we accept Jesus and continue in sin, then our belief wasn't real (Romans 6:1-2, Hebrews 10:26). This doesn't mean that we can't still screw up, but that we are not changed and are not experiencing the love of Jesus so we live like we did before. I believe salvation is not a location, but a direction.

Maybe some of those people really weren't following Christ and just wanted power and money and political gain, or maybe they really believed they were doing the right thing because they applied Old Testament stories of God giving the land of people who had rejected him to the Israelites (His chosen people). If they read the whole Bible I think they would have seen that this is not at all what Jesus wants from us (Matthew 5:44).

I believe that anyone who is truly after God's heart will be guided by God (Proverbs 3:5-7) but I can't tell what was in the hearts of the people who did terrible things in the name of religion, and I don't know which of them will get to spend eternity with God. I am sad that they did those things because so many people use that as a reason for rejecting Jesus. Too many people judge Christ by what misguided people do instead of by what he taught and wanted from us. I think people do terrible things, but Jesus doesn't.

Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber

moving thru

Mar 31, 2016 - 10:14pm PT

I thought this thread would be about the presidential election so I never bothered to click on it until tonight when my curiosity got the best of me. How wrong I was. You just can't outguess thread titles. Will I ever learn?

Right now I see I am 245 posts behind. I may never catch up but I'll give a stab at it only because my best friend jesus changed my life, gave me life, saved my life, my marriage and really, truly is my everyday best friend.

I am a pragmatist. "Truth is preeminently to be tested by the practical consequences of belief." Merriam-Webster's. However, I am not an intellectual. I am Lynne.

Mungeclimber, I had to look up two of your word questions...ontological and Cartesian, and I have to say neither of the two along with your third, quantity of faithful, to me are even close to being the best, most cohesive logical argument for the existence of God.

StahlBro, your question could fuel a new thread that would get hundreds of hits.

GDavis, you raise several great questions.

I read on and see the interchange between Donini and HermitMaster and I have to say it is totally NOT about religion.

If you read Matthew, Mark, Luke and John in the new part of the Bible....or just Matthew...you see that jesus was the biggest anti religious person of his time. He never established a "church", he never asked for donations and he fought the established church until they killed him. He broke religious traditions and rules, and taught people to forgive and love.

And now to answer you, GDavis. I was born and raised into a Christian faith. It only worked for so long. You see jesus doesn't want a religious adoptee, he wants you to know him and know him for real. I knew all the religious facts, but when I was older and went to a Christian (no way) University it all appeared to me like a shell game. My German teacher was a total bigot to the one black guy in our class and treated him miserably. I took a class in Judeo Christian principles. What a joke. GDavis, I didn't practice other religions but I sure explored them one by one. They helped me no more than the religion I'd been raised in.

I left the University and went home. I got married. We had a child. Lots of life happened, none of it easy. After 3 years our marriage fell apart. My husband took our son and left AZ where he was attending school and went back to Ca. I'd had it with life. I swore I would never go back to Ca where all our family and friends lived.

Now this is where it gets interesting. I found this out later. My husband went back to work for his Dad and one day a person Dan knew in high school came into the shop. The last time Dan had seen him was driving down the freeway and the guy was in the back of an Orange County jail truck. Well this guy asks Dan how he's doing. Dan tells him his life is falling apart. The friend tells Dan his life also fell apart and thru a series of events he asked jesus to be his best friend. He told Dan that God could help him too and together they prayed for jesus to be Dan's best friend.

They began to pray for me and for our marriage. Tho I had sworn I would never step foot back into Ca, I found myself staying with a friend in San Diego. One day her phone rang. It was Dan. He told me about his life change and asked if we could give it another chance. I was at the end of the end. I had to make a decision. OK. He and a friend came and got me. I sat alone in the back seat. They both reminded me that I had been a Christian. I replied, "you don't believe in those fairy tales, do you?"

Lots happened over the next several months. Nothing good. One night Dan and friends took me to a Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa, Ca. The only reason I went was because we were living with Dan's parents and they were not to pleased with me, leaving their son and their grandson.

Dressed in leather hot pants and tall boots I walked into the church defying anyone to say anything. No one did. At the end of the service the pastor, Chuck Smith, said words I will never forget. I still see the ventilation duct with a piece of white plastic tape blowing gently in the cool air.

"If someone offered you a banquet table with everything you ever wanted on it would you push it away?" I thought, "No, you'd be crazy to." Then he said, "Where are you tonight? Have you tried plan A,B,C and none of them have worked?" And I thought, yeah. Then he explained about giving your life to jesus. My heart pounded hard. He said come on up and let us pray with you. I SO did not want to but there was something.....I thought I would die, but I got up and walked up. My life has never been the same.

I have been thru good times, great times and times of tremendous grief and pain, but my best friend has always been there. He hasn't been there always like I wanted him to be. Our marriage was challenged again, our daughter lost the sight in one eye, Dan got Hodgkins Disease, finances were tough and Dan died 8 years ago. But our marriage became so very special, we survived so much, learned so much and loved so much. We ended up with four incredible kids and now grand kids. Looking back, I know for sure I would have been dead by 24 years of age.

You can argue about the best, most cohesive, logical argument for the existence of God...or you can meet him and know him. He's the best friend you'll ever have. Hey, he steered me to Super Topo and all you great people. :) If you do nothing else go out to the wilderness and read Matthew Chapters 5,6 and 7. If we lived it the planet would be different.

Sure you gotta start out by a leap of faith, but it works.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Mar 31, 2016 - 10:30pm PT

s. For me, I believed there had to be some sort of God because of my background in science.

Do tell, got to be a good one...

rbord

Boulder climber

atlanta

Mar 31, 2016 - 11:07pm PT

Thanks limpingcrab.

So if the real reason that you believe that the bible is the Truth is for some other reasoned descriptions and arguments, why do you cite those bible verses when you express that belief? Force of habit of expression or thinking? Or are those bible verses the most convincing and compelling defense of your belief in the bible as Truth that you can offer?

I appreciate you saying that forming the belief that you did was the easiest one for you to form. I think humans are like that. Different beliefs are easier for many other people.

Reilly

Mountain climber

The Other Monrovia- CA

Mar 31, 2016 - 11:18pm PT

God has spoken to me on any number of occasions, I think.

Come to think of it he may have done so today while I was negotiating with
a car salesman. This wasn't my first rodeo and I knew I was being led down
a path of the 6000 year old Earth but he did it was such grace that I knew
that my Karma would benefit from humoring him, even at my expense. On the
other hand I also know that noblesse oblige is a burden some of us must
acknowledge as a privilege to be shared with our fellow sinners, right, Werner?

OMMMMMMMMMMMM!

Klimmer

Mountain climber

Mar 31, 2016 - 11:50pm PT

You know, lots of people here and in the world are gonna say ...

"Doooooh!

Can I have a do-over now that I know everything these people of faith were saying to me is true regarding Yeshua? Dang it I screwed up."

The answer is "No. You can't."

Hebrews 9:27 (KJV)

"27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"

Figure it out with G-d's help before its too late. Listen to people of faith. Take a step of faith toward Yeshua. Ask him into your life and ask for forgiveness.

Keep up the great apologetics limpincrab. ST needs it.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Apr 1, 2016 - 06:25am PT

Yep....ST needs a catechism lesson to save all of the souls of the poor wayward non-believers....carry on.

Bushman

Social climber

Elk Grove, California

Apr 1, 2016 - 08:35am PT

It has always been hard to be a nonbeliever in my family. I am the only one and everyone else has some kind of pseudo-Christianity and says they believe in God. They don't practice any Christianity but they still say they believe in some kind of diety and the hereafter.

My father was a minister until my parents divorce in1970. After which they both left the church but my dad, who had a 25 year career in law enforcement career after that, continues continues to be a believer. My mom passed away with a healthy suspicion of any church types due to the hypocrisy she saw in Christian church hierarchies.

As a child we traveled around a lot due to my dads ministry and he preached at several churches of different denominations. I was raised on hard revivalism and evangelist principles and was expected to study and read the Bible repeatedly, which I did of course multiple times through. Getting saved and witnessing to people was part and parcel to the whole thing too. For many in the church, getting other people converted and saved is a way to validate their own conviction as well.

After I turned away from religion and begin to have my own mind it always struck me odd when people would try to get me saved always assuming that I knew nothing about the scriptures, god's love, etc, etc, and they were so concerned about the welfare of my immortal soul. They had no clue as to what I have gone through to deprogram myself from religious thinking. It's a process I'm still working on and difficult in our Judeo Christian-based society.

I can't even swear properly without dredging up the name of a deity and the punishment he would mete out, ha ha. Many of the Christians I have run into since I became an agnostic, then later an atheist, had no idea about the reasons I have to believe what I believe, The history of my turning away from faith, and the ostracizing I have experienced from so called children of God who espouse that we should ask ourselves, "what would Jesus do?" and then shun you when you disagree or do not want to believe in their faith.

I've had enough of religion to last a hundred lifetimes and I only am posting here to voice a contrary position to the fervor, cultism, and brainwashing that sometimes becomes the end result of many people's illogical faith.

fear

Ice climber

hartford, ct

Apr 1, 2016 - 08:45am PT

Good thread that hasn't degenerated into name-calling... It must be the work of some God just for that to happen!

A question though, for those thoughtful posters who say they "got to know" Jesus was there a moment or manifestation of some kind that the good carpenter was somehow in touch with you?

In other words, was there a clear line or point in time from before Jesus/God to "with" Jesus/God? And what made you believe that was true?

rbord

Boulder climber

atlanta

Apr 1, 2016 - 10:38am PT

In response to the bible maybe not being the easy believing handbook of Truth that you believe it to be, you replied:

Well crap, I guess I'm out of luck then.

I disagree. I think that we humans have evolved human belief creation processes because those processes and the resulting beliefs are advantageous to us, not because our beliefs are always true. The measure of the value of a belief is not whether or not it's true, but whether or not it's advantageous to believe. Sure there are huge advantages to believing Truth that is exhaustingly algorithmicly derived, but given the incomplete information that we have, and the limited resources of time and processing power, sometimes it's more advantageous to believe the half truth of our heuristics. What passes to us as exhaustively algorithmicly derived is "I've thought a lot about it", or "I've read some good books on the subject". A handbook of easy believing truths sounds pretty advantageous!

Does this dress make me look fat? Hell no! Now let's go out and do some good with our falsely derived self-esteem.

I agree DMT. I like this guy.

rbord

Boulder climber

atlanta

Apr 1, 2016 - 01:26pm PT

You see Jesus doesn't want a religious adoptee, he wants you to know him and know him for real.

The relationship that he wants is a "real" disciple, not an "adopted" disciple?

You seem like a really good-hearted person who I admire, and I don't expect that was intentional, and it maybe only reflects an unconscious bias, but as a member of the adoption triad as the adoptive parent of two adopted daughters, ouch! With all due respect, which is considerable, to me, my relationship with my adoptees is more "real" than your relationship with Jesus.

John M

climber

Apr 1, 2016 - 02:36pm PT

I don't believe she said anything against adoption. I believe Lynne was trying to say that instead of simply adopting the practices of any religion, that one should strive for a relationship with Jesus which is different from just following some practices. Its fairly easily to follow some practices mechanically, i.e. going to church on Sunday. It takes more of oneself to create a relationship. This is why it is so important to understand that religion is not God. It is mans at times limited understanding of God, and is often completely off base.

I agree with her, but I would expand it to say that any being that has put on the full mind of Christ and become one with the Father has become the Christ, and therefore one could follow that person. I believe that there are many Christs. Buddha was one. Krishna was another. Mohammed I believe did not achieve full Christhood in that lifetime and as such his writings did not reach their full potential and have falsehoods in them. He was a high Chela and there is some truth in what he wrote, but there was ego that he did not overcome and thus his writings are tainted with that energy.

For Lockers sake, this is of course my opinion and you are free to disagree.

John M

climber

Apr 1, 2016 - 02:53pm PT

I always did understand Locker. I understood that you do not accept that there is a God. I do though accept that God is real. I also understand that I can not prove to you by scientific means that there is a God. I can only do my best to live what I believe, and let that speak for itself.

You say that I can not say that I know. By your standards perhaps that is true. But I know in my heart of hearts that it is true because I have experienced it and it is not some chemical reaction in my brain. No chemical reaction could do what I have seen and experienced. And therefore I say that I know that God is real.

There are of course people who will disagree. They are free to do so as I am free to believe what I believe as long as I harm no one. And that I understand is the point where people get pissed at the religious. Many people feel harmed by religion. To me that is a great sadness. It is sad that people through religious beliefs have harmed others, and it is sad to me that people judge God based on religion, and it is sad to me that there is so much misunderstanding.

cintune

climber

Colorado School of Mimes

Apr 1, 2016 - 04:23pm PT

I understood that you do not accept that there is a God.

So, if you're so sure, and yet can't "prove" any of it, then what's the point?
It sounds like you're really trying to convince yourself.

cat t.

climber

california

Apr 1, 2016 - 04:59pm PT

Daniel, I have a question that is not related to theology. (I hope it is not too tactless.)

As you know, I grew up in small town Texas, where everyone was quite religious. As an adult in California, I find that adults who take their religion seriously are kind, open, welcoming, and not pushy. As a child, though, the other children were kind of horrible. At worst, they told me my family and I were going to hell; at best, I was regularly excluded with a curt, "well, your family doesn't go to church." I'm confident that those kids grew up to be normal, tolerant adults, but as a child it seemed like religion was just one more way for kids to be exclusive and cruel.

My question, then: how do you simultaneously teach a child that your religion is the way to salvation, while also teaching them to be accepting of people who do not believe the same? The concept of "we firmly believe you are eternally incorrect, but we are still going to be nice" seems like it is hard for tiny humans to grasp.

Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber

moving thru

Apr 1, 2016 - 05:24pm PT

John M, your first paragraph conveys just exactly what I was trying to say. Thank You!

My father was dropped off at an orphanage in the early 30's, back when kids where adopted, worked to death and then returned which is what happened to his sisters. My Dad was only 3 so this did not happen to him.

My Dad was adopted by a Chicago Stockyards meat cutter and his wife. He worked hard during his youth and often retrieved his Dad from the local bar. My Dad married at 21 and became a meat cutter. One day he and my Mom decided that he would go back to school. He did and became a graduate of the University of Illinois, a physician, during which time they had 7 children. He has never let me forget how important his adoption and finally the adoption of his two sisters to good homes was.

I would never dishonor adoption even if my life had not been touched by it. I hope that clears things up rbord. Sincerely, lynnie

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 1, 2016 - 07:04pm PT

Very interesting observation cat t.

but as a child it seemed like religion was just one more way for kids to be exclusive and cruel.

you are correct, religious teachings at an early age make children more intolerant, or is it less tolerant?

Religious children are meaner than their secular counterparts, study finds
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/06/religious-children-less-altruistic-secular-kids-study

Religious belief appears to have negative influence on children’s altruism and judgments of others’ actions even as parents see them as ‘more empathetic’

Children from religious families are less kind and more punitive than those from non-religious households, according to a new study.

Academics from seven universities across the world studied Christian, Muslim and non-religious children to test the relationship between religion and morality.

They found that religious belief is a negative influence on children’s altruism.

They are more judgmental of others because of feelings of superiority from their tribal religious experience.

“Overall, our findings ... contradict the commonsense and popular assumption that children from religious households are more altruistic and kind towards others,” said the authors of The Negative Association Between Religiousness and Children’s Altruism Across the World, published this week in Current Biology.

“More generally, they call into question whether religion is vital for moral development, supporting the idea that secularisation of moral discourse will not reduce human kindness – in fact, it will do just the opposite.”

So the question is, should a child be indoctrinated into any religion when the evidence says that it's not good for a child's psychological development?

Maybe they need to mature into a non-judgmental skeptical adult and then decide for themselves?

Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber

moving thru

Apr 1, 2016 - 08:40pm PT

Craig, really.......can't paint the broad brush strokes, we are all different. Cheers, Lynne

Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber

moving thru

Apr 1, 2016 - 09:55pm PT

Jim, I think you're thinking beyond what I was thinking. I was speaking about jesus and his interaction with his own cultures religious leaders, namely the Scribes and the Pharisees.

I'm not a very subtle person, more like simply saying what I feel. Not really sure what you mean. L.

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Ontario, Canada, eh?

Apr 1, 2016 - 10:24pm PT

Nice testimony, Lynnie. Thanks for sharing.

Karen - why don't you talk to Lynnie? Reading what you have written, I get your struggles. I also have the feeling you are trying to "do" something that has already been done for you.

Have a read through John 15, where Jesus talks about him being the vine and us being the branches. You don't have to produce the fruit, that's his job. All you have to do is .... abide.

Some translations use the word "remain" but I really like "abide". You might find some answers in this single word....

You say you wish you had more faith, like some other Christians. I believe faith is knowledge based - the more you understand, the easier it is to believe. Accordingly get back into the Word - blow the dust off your bible, dig out some of your favourite old books. Get yourself out to a ladies' group, find a spiritual mentor, build your faith through knowledge of the Word. Open your heart - God and HS will do the teaching.

Quit beating yourself up and dragging around the past like a millstone around your neck. God already beat up Jesus in your place - once is enough, eh? Why don't you take all that crap from past, and go throw it where it belongs - at the foot of the cross. You know ... the Old Rugged Cross?

All you have to do is abide: "If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old is gone, the new has come!" 2 Cor 5:17

Look upwards, not backwards.

In Him,
PtL and PtP Pete

Flip Flop

climber

Earth Planet, Universe

Apr 1, 2016 - 10:49pm PT

What's up with all the son killing in these psychobabble cults? Seems diagnosable as schizo or more likely psycho.

Why is this hard? Poor victims of childhood indoctrination, save yourselves.

Bushman

Social climber

Elk Grove, California

Apr 2, 2016 - 04:40am PT

Posting half asleep at five am sometimes doesn't work out so well for me. I just re-read what I wrote here earlier, pretty lame and there was no call for it. Carry on true believers, not that there's anything wrong with that...

cat t.

climber

california

Apr 2, 2016 - 05:39am PT

Craig, I don't doubt those findings on a population-wide scale. Within any group, though, there are those who are more or less considerate, and I think Daniel is generally in the "more considerate" category.

I'm curious about this in a more practical way--or, precisely, I'm more curious about child development than I am about theology. The concepts of "eternal forgiveness" and "salvation" are complicated and difficult for children to apply to their daily lives, so how does one teach these ideas while also making it clear that these principles are not invitations to exclusivity and the ability to excuse oneself from personal responsibility?

I would put this question in a similar category to "how do you praise an intelligent or otherwise talented child?" It has been demonstrated that children told they are "hard workers" are more likely to succeed on future exams than children told they are "smart"--which probably has something to do with confidence and a sense of autonomy.

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2016 - 09:04am PT

s. For me, I believed there had to be some sort of God because of my background in science.

Do tell, got to be a good one...

Here's the very short version of a very long, multi-year story. I believe abiogenesis requires more faith than faith in God. Not to mention how many biochemical mechanisms are lacking from macroevolution theory. Whether people believe God started life millions/billions of years ago and helped it along or instead created it in motion more recently, I have no opinion.

So if the real reason that you believe that the bible is the Truth is for some other reasoned descriptions and arguments, why do you cite those bible verses when you express that belief? Force of habit of expression or thinking? Or are those bible verses the most convincing and compelling defense of your belief in the bible as Truth that you can offer?

Sorry, I was probably too wordy with my first answer. Basically, a series of events led me to believe that the Bible contains words from God. So, from now on when I have a question about something I check my beliefs/statements against what the Bible says. I see your concern, that believing the bible is true because the bible says it's true is obvious circular reasoning. Maybe I'm not explaining it clearly, but I don't think that's how I got to where I am.

A question though, for those thoughtful posters who say they "got to know" Jesus was there a moment or manifestation of some kind that the good carpenter was somehow in touch with you?

In other words, was there a clear line or point in time from before Jesus/God to "with" Jesus/God? And what made you believe that was true?

I have many friends and have met many people with beautiful stories about this, but for me there was no sort of ta-da moment where I felt different after accepting Jesus. Since then, though, I believe I have had some. I couldn't do it justice trying to explain it unless someone has experienced a moment with Jesus for themselves.

Hi Cat! Ya, I quit going to Sunday school when I was little because I didn't like all of the "religious" kids that seemed to miss the point of Christ and like to judge instead. I am teaching my son what I was taught, and what I believe Jesus taught. That is, we are not called moralize immoral people, but instead to love people where they're at. I believe this comes from Jesus teaching us not to judge others (Matthew 7:1-6), teaching us to love everyone (Matthew 5:44) and telling us not to be legalistic (basing our lives around a bunch of nit-picky rules and enforcing them on others, Romans 14). Not to mention how Jesus loved to talk about things like lost sheep and prodigal sons, showing how much he cares for people that aren't "part of the club."

I don't believe the teachings of Jesus should be judged through the lens of people who misinterpret them and screw up.

To your second point: Imagine you believe in something that you see as the best thing about life and firmly believe it is, in fact, the whole point of life. I can't imagine that there would be any loving parents who would not share this with their kids (assuming they believe it).

I prefer obligation to a free state based on private citizens and public servants VS. a theocracy.

I believe Jesus thought this was smart as well (Romans 12 to 13)

What's up with all the son killing in these psychobabble cults?

Good question, God thought it was detestable (Deuteronomy 12:31)

Flip Flop

climber

Earth Planet, Universe

Apr 2, 2016 - 09:16am PT

Prosthletyzer!

He thought it was detestable when exactly? When he tested Abraham? When he tortured his own son? When he condemned the majority of humanity to eternal damnation.

Words have meanings, you know?

From out here in the rational world, you sound like another Scientologist or Mormon or Any other bullshit cultist.

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Ontario, Canada, eh?

Apr 2, 2016 - 09:17am PT

Cat T:

Ha! I have always been "smart". I have never been a "hard worker".

I graduated last in my engineering class both alphabetically and arithmetically, thus proving I did no more work than I absolutely had to, and maximizing my time caving, climbing and playing my trombone.

Religion is nothing but a set of rules - it's not the way you seek God. Seeking God is about having a personal relationship with your creator. Jesus was extremely anti-religion - he spoke of love and faith and forgiveness. These are the building blocks of Christianity.

That and the rather nebulous but empirically observed belief that when we invite Jesus into our hearts, we become filled with the Holy Spirit who helps us in countless ways. This is complex, but clearly observable in limpingcrab who demonstrates so-called "fruits of the Spirit" like love, patience, kindness, gentleness and around this place - self-control!

"The concepts of "eternal forgiveness" and "salvation" are complicated and difficult for children to apply to their daily lives, so how does one teach these ideas while also making it clear that these principles are not invitations to exclusivity and the ability to excuse oneself from personal responsibility?"

Please follow this story, perhaps a modern day parable:

A girl is speeding in her car, 50 mph over the limit. She gets pulled over by a cop who writes her a ticket. She does not appear disturbed. "See you in court!" she says to the cop as she drives away. You see, the girl's dad is a judge in the local traffic court.

A few weeks later, the girl and the cop arrive in traffic court, and appear before the girl's dad, the judge. The girl knows that her dad loves her very much, and is certain that he will let her off.

After hearing the cop's evidence, the judge brings down his gavel and declares, "She's guilty of speeding. The fine is $500."

The girl is heartbroken! How could her dad - who loves her so much - do this to her? Why didn't he let her off? He could have!

What happens next amazes the girl even more. The judge takes off his robe and hangs it on a hook, and reaches into his pocket for his wallet. He pulls out $500 cash, and gives it to the bailiff, thus paying the fine for his daughter's speeding violation.

In this parable, the judge is God. God is God, and when a sin is committed, a fine has to be paid. It's a pretty stiff fine, too - usually paid in blood.

When Christians believe that "Jesus died for our sins", we accept that Jesus paid the price for all of our sins in his one single action on the cross. The price is paid for all sins once and for all - past present and future. It's a free gift - we accept it through our faith. Just like the girl accepted her dad paying the fine for her. The judge didn't ask her to reimburse her later - my dad sure would have!

The relationship between daughter and father is founded on love, and accordingly the daughter is not going to get back in her car, and intentionally speed, knowing she'll get off next time. Although some daughters might.

So even though the daughter has been "saved" and will be "eternally forgiven" for all further speeding tickets or whatever other traffic offences she is sure to commit sooner or later - don't we all? - it does not excuse her from the personal responsibility to be accountable to the one she loves - her dad. If she wants a relationship that is based on love, she won't intentionally sin, in spite of the fact that she knows she can get away with it.

Something like that.....

John M

climber

Apr 2, 2016 - 09:18am PT

Prosthletyzer!

LOL. through the vulcan mind meld he forced you to read this thread. OMG! or was he using the force? dang.. I get those two confused.

Flip Flop

climber

Earth Planet, Universe

Apr 2, 2016 - 09:21am PT

I don't read this psychobabble. I just like to kick culty as#@&%es.

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Ontario, Canada, eh?

Apr 2, 2016 - 09:22am PT

^ Concur.

Daniel has only been sharing his faith and answering questions. It is ludicrous to suggest otherwise. Some people appear unable to read and comprehend.

Flip Flop

climber

Earth Planet, Universe

Apr 2, 2016 - 09:23am PT

My God is the Universe. My god will end all your religions.

Keep it in your head and your church. Otherwise you can expect the light of truth to shine on your ridiculous imaginings, bullshit creation mythologies and hateful, divisive Zombie Cult.
😂

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Apr 2, 2016 - 09:57am PT

Where do these good ol' God fearing folk fit in?

http://www.newsweek.com/2016/02/12/right-wing-extremists-militants-bigger-threat-america-isis-jihadists-422743.html

John M

climber

Apr 2, 2016 - 10:15am PT

can't stand donald trump, nor Cruz, nor Hillary. I will not vote for Hillary. Of all those running, Sanders seems the most honest, though I disagree with some of his policy desires. I would vote for Sanders.

Does that clear up the "religious people all think the same" monologue that some people seem to be stuck in?

Flip Flop

climber

Earth Planet, Universe

Apr 2, 2016 - 10:15am PT

Thank you Locker.

Why can't these jackasses stick to their thread. Totally gumming up an otherwise rational forum ( and world you bunch a Sheep.)

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Apr 2, 2016 - 10:20am PT

What jackasses? Who you referring to bro? Is that what Jesus teaches? My question is legit since a lot of those hate groups refer to themselves as Christian.

Does that clear up the "religious people all think the same" monologue that some people seem to be stuck in?

Way to buck the trend John M.

John M

climber

Apr 2, 2016 - 10:30am PT

Admittedly a large group of purported Christians vote republican. But most of my friends who are religious, including those who claim Christianity, tend to vote Democrat. My parents come from a very strict Southern Baptist background, though they are less strict now, and my mother votes Democrat and my Father votes Republican. The same thing happens in my brothers family. But then my family has been crossing lines for a long time. I grew up having people from all backgrounds and religions/non religion in our house.

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Apr 2, 2016 - 10:32am PT

I would've guessed that about you John.

I like it. Lots of crossover in my family as well, and lots of "jack" Christians.

rbord

Boulder climber

atlanta

Apr 2, 2016 - 11:34am PT

Thanks Lynne. Sorry if I misunderstood. The only definition I can find for "adoptee" in our language, in our time, is "a person who was adopted." Maybe you meant "adopter", meaning someone who has adopted a position? Regardless, for me personally, with my understanding, when I see an "adoptee/adopted/adoptive" relationship portrayed as undesirable, and less than "real", that reflects and reinforces a perspective that I feel harms me. And while I have a wife, and I have daughters, and men throughout history have had wives and daughters, still sexism persists in men and in our society, and probably even in me, in ways that I don't see. I'm a human, like the rest of us, and hopefully I can summon the humility to acknowledge my fallibility of perception and understanding, even with respect to the reasons that I believe what I do.

But maybe I misunderstood what you said. Or maybe you miscommunicated what you meant. Or maybe you misunderstood when Jesus told you that he didn't want an adoptee, and that he wanted a "real" relationship. Or maybe you misunderstood what Jesus told you.

Lots of possibilities. But if you believe that you have a book that gives you the answers, written in a different language in a different time, and you believe that you clearly understand those answers, that's probably a good start. And if you believe that you have a direct understanding of exactly what it is that Jesus wants, even better. And if I can believe that's a reflection of my humility, rather than the arrogance of my human need to confirm the truth of my beliefs, jackpot!

For me, I think that one of the strongest pressures in our belief processes is our self-confirmation bias. We all have it - we all believe that whatever it is that we believe is true. We believe that we're good for believing it. It helps motivate us to act according to our beliefs, without having to endlessly search for more information, and a deeper understanding. We have incomplete information, but we need to believe that we know.

So when it comes to choosing whether to believe that Jesus is telling me that he doesn't want an adoptee relationship with me, or to believe that my evolved psychological tendency towards spiritual belief perceptions has evolved because it supports human warfare which has provided an advantage in human evolution, I know which one I prefer!, without even needing to be consciously aware of it. If I need to add leprechauns to the explanation because cognitive dissonance sucks!, I can probably find a way to live with that. I'm a human - you know how we are.

I have a black daughter. But it doesn't mean I have a get out of racism free card. I'm probably racist in ways that I don't notice. Yea, that sucks for me. I wish that I could believe that I have a book of answers, that I have a direct connection to Jesus, and that I know what Jesus wants. But I don't. But that same human inclination to think that what we believe is right - that we have a book of answers - that we have a direct connection to Jesus - that what we believe is what we believe because it's right, it's true, not because humans have evolved to form beliefs that way - that's the same human inclination that allows me to be racist, without noticing. And I don't want to be that way.

So limpingcrab, does your belief that you have a book of answers, the bible, that tells you the truth, confirm your belief that you have a direct real nonadoptee relationship with Jesus and that you know what Jesus wants, or does it work the other way, that Jesus tells you the truth that the bible is telling the truth? Or do they confirm each other? Or is that not how your belief processes work - really those beliefs are based on something else, maybe something human?

Wishing you well!

John M

climber

Apr 2, 2016 - 12:03pm PT

Bushman..

I doh't believe that you had anything to apologize for. You told your story. It is sad and happens all too often. Hopefully one day you will understand that religion and the people in them are not God, and sometimes, all too often, they behave categorically opposite to what God would do. I believe with all of my heart that God is Love.

God is not hatred, bigotry or cruelty, though his followers often behave this way. That is a reflection of their ignorance and the state of their own heart. Not of who God is.

And hopefully one day you will meet some believers who more fully understand what it means that God is Love. Limpingcrab is I believe one of those. Patience and kindness are aspects of Love.

WBraun

climber

Apr 2, 2016 - 03:37pm PT

Just see ^^^

Locker is preaching and playing god.

The cult and church of Locker and the rest of the atheist hypocrites here .....

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 2, 2016 - 03:51pm PT

Do you have to deny that evolution is true to be a good Christian?
Please site the verse in the bible that disallows the belief in evolution.

Why is there a fossil record that has dug up long extinct forms of life.

Shouldn't there be evidence of a creation event rather than all the evidence proving that all life came from less evolved life forms and slowly evolved to all the species we see today.

scientists have shown that there is no evidence of intelligent design
it's all evolved from basic building blocks

Bushman

Social climber

Elk Grove, California

Apr 2, 2016 - 04:50pm PT

My wife is Latino

Our two kids I adopted from her first marriage are Latino

My heritage is
English Irish Welsh Scottish Polish Norwegian Swedish Danish

That makes me 100% Latino

Which also means I'm a Protestant Catholic Athiest

Good grief

Norton

Social climber

Apr 2, 2016 - 06:09pm PT

Evolution had not been invented yet when those guys wrote the Bible.

Contractor

Boulder climber

Apr 2, 2016 - 06:10pm PT

This is my top-rope solo set-up and I think it's the better than your set-up...

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Apr 2, 2016 - 06:32pm PT

Contractor, Ouch!

no way, those slings slice

my rig uses a Yates wall chest harness. Plusshhh

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 2, 2016 - 07:37pm PT

Contractor!!!
yer goin dye with that get up

call in Cosmic to add some tye dye if want to survive death!!!

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Apr 2, 2016 - 08:21pm PT

scientists have shown that there is no evidence of intelligent design
it's all evolved from basic building blocks

HaHaHaHaHaHaHa

is that THEE Scientific Method YOUR using?

HaHaHahaHaha

HOW do you think intelligent creation would work?? Do you imagine God said poof and there stood a cow? Maybe you should actually try reading Gene-sis 1, it does describe "a type" of evolution, actually. One that had a planned start date! Another words, "set into motion"; Campared to(in short) modernism's evolution, which transcends by Luck and Chance. Thus requiring no guilt or remorse..

You "Fry"s" of the world, WHEN are you gonna wake up?! Your not here with questions like that of a spirit to learn(exemplified in children)? Your here with presumptions and accusations from your own bias with a prosecutionalary presumption for contempt. Face it, you are 'The Accuser", "The Anti-Christ". Yo gonna burn in the pit of a Sun, shinning rays of energy on all us who live, so Thank you for being the bummer you are today ;)

Fritz

Trad climber

Choss Creek, ID

Apr 2, 2016 - 08:40pm PT

Cosmic! that's great when you type!

I PRAY for you every night, Craig.

I have a cousin who is a cloistered Carmelite Nun. She prays for Heidi & me every day. I have never been bothered by that.

My best friend, (really, no schist, my best friend!) Jerry, is a good Presbyterian. He is a deacon in his church, makes food for the poor once a week, and lives a good Christian life.

However, Jerry loves the outdoors, exercise, & adventure, and most of his friends are not Christians. In the 25 years that we have been great friends, he has never tried to proselytize me about God or Jesus. We can just be friends & I can appreciate his quiet faith in God, which I do.

Jerry is my Christian hero, and those that are spewing doctrine here & elsewhere, in their ordained biblical quest to “convert the heathen” are just a pain in my a*#.

Praise Jesus that I don’t have to climb or interact with Christian proselytizers in person.

ecdh

climber

the east

Apr 2, 2016 - 08:43pm PT

Why did god invent hallucinogenic plants?

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Apr 2, 2016 - 09:01pm PT

ecdh^^^ dude the universe must provide a negative to every positive. It' the law! The law also provides what's good for your brain. YOUR power is that of choice..

ecdh

climber

the east

Apr 2, 2016 - 09:03pm PT

Non-answer.

Why did god invent hallucinogenic plants?

Flip Flop

climber

Earth Planet, Universe

Apr 2, 2016 - 09:10pm PT

Back to my questions

Human: Does God allow hell and eternal damnation?

Christer: Yes ( or blather)

Human: So you were indoctrinated as a child, right?

Christer: Yes ( or blather)

Human: And your God/Christ/Spirit, did he mean to leave such a divisive
mess of judgement and retribution behind which he cannot or will not rectify?

Christer: Yes ( or blather)

Human: And all the other fancy creation mythologies and their followers are pretty much loonies, right?

Christer: Yes ( or blather)

Human: And you're a pacifist like Jesus, right?

Christer: Nope

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Apr 2, 2016 - 09:20pm PT

Fritz, that's a wonderful personal experience!

and i would act the same way too, in person.

In public forums,,,, sure we see people meeting and getting married, but i see it ONLY as a public place to discern personal truths..

Ethics and emotions HAVE to be optional

Bushman

Social climber

Elk Grove, California

Apr 2, 2016 - 09:26pm PT

Human; Doesn't God ever sin?

"Lucy, I thin you hab sum splainin to do!"

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Apr 2, 2016 - 09:38pm PT

Human: And you're a pacifist like Jesus, right?

Jesus ain't no fukin pacifist! The law is absolute! His is an alternate path negotiated by the Source/Judge.

EVOLUTION, now there's a pacifist!

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Apr 2, 2016 - 10:15pm PT

You chose to be a gadfly, BLUEBLOCER.

seems queer for you to say this, since your understanding negates choice??

before you judge, maybe broaden your view?

meaning, "BLUEBLOCR" is a meme

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2016 - 10:36pm PT

I had to look that word up, and now I think it's funny that I didn't know exactly what proselytizer meant.

I believe God thought people sacrificing their children was detestable every time he mentioned it in the bible. He did not have Abraham kill his son and I believe Jesus is God, so he himself suffered for our sins so that we can know him (Colossians 2:9)

That's ok, I'm not really worried about how I look :)

Where do these good ol' God fearing folk fit in?

http://www.newsweek.com/2016/02/12/right-wing-extremists-militants-bigger-threat-america-isis-jihadists-422743.html

I believe that, sadly, they fit in with so many people that miss the point (Love, 1st John 4:19). Sadder still, people will think that they represent followers of Christ instead of those that are out giving their lives to help and love people.

So limpingcrab, does your belief that you have a book of answers, the bible, that tells you the truth, confirm your belief that you have a direct real nonadoptee relationship with Jesus and that you know what Jesus wants, or does it work the other way, that Jesus tells you the truth that the bible is telling the truth? Or do they confirm each other? Or is that not how your belief processes work - really those beliefs are based on something else, maybe something human?

I'll try to be concise.
-I Believe there must be some sort of higher power for scientific reasons.
-I believe Christianity is the story of that higher power for logical reasons.
-I believe the Bible because it is the basis for Christianity and following Jesus.

Any one of those could be a multi-day conversation, but I hope that addresses the gist of your question. It could be different for every believer out there, that's just the answer specific to me.

I do not believe that a person's opinion about evolution has anything to do with salvation or a relationship with Jesus (1st John 1:19). You are correct in that the Bible is not black and white about this. Don't waste too much time on topics outside of the love of Jesus, but you can compare reasons.org and icr.org for the opposing views that Christians may have on evolution and the age of the earth. I think it is unfortunate that many people see Jesus and the history of life as an either/or decision.

Not to go too far down this rabbit hole tangent (which could go 1000+ posts), but I still firmly believe that God had to have been involved either way. That is coming from about 15 years of study, including both of my degrees in Ecology & Evolution. Assuming that "scientists" have abiogenesis and biochemical macroevolution figured out is comparable, to me, to a person without a background in medicine watching a one-sided Netflix documentary about vaccinations and then believing that they are terrible and nobody should get them. I hope that doesn't come off as sarcastic or condescending, I'm just trying to express my personal opinion.

This is my top-rope solo set-up and I think it's the better than your set-up...

Probably, here's mine

Why did god invent hallucinogenic plants?

Was there something in my original response that you would like me to clarify? Sorry, not sure what else to add...

I can't answer to generalizations for people who try to follow Jesus and I'm reading that as a series of generalizations. I'd be happy to share my personal belief based on what I have learned from Jesus if there's a specific question.

ecdh

climber

the east

Apr 2, 2016 - 10:54pm PT

the 'i dont know' was refreshing to see, as was the acceptance of evolution. left at that the whole thread would be neat.
the rest was barely related to the question and a string of inconsistencies but it may be that was your point.

dont get me wrong, i admire your grace and even courage in hosting this thread. you are filling in lots of blanks with a depth of quality and a sound sense of debate. respect.

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 3, 2016 - 07:56am PT

Face it, you are Face it, you are 'The Accuser", "The Anti-Christ". Yo gonna burn in the pit of a Sun, shinning rays of energy on all us who live, so Thank you for being the bummer you are today ;)
Yo gonna burn in the pit of a Sun, shinning rays of energy on all us who live, so Thank you for being the bummer you are today ;)
BB

Well at least he put in a smiley face

I really hit a nerve, that's what I hate about reactionaries, they just can't hold to together when their "faith" is challenged.
Is it a right wing thing?, authoritarian? Christian?
It's not really a Christian thing, so many other folks have the same personality trait.

BB
Does this hate you have apply to everyone that believes in evolution?
Even the Vatican Catholics now accept evolution.

Intelligent design has zero scientific proof or any support by anyone except the religious zealots, look it up.

The whole scientific revolution is part of 'The Accuser", "The Anti-Christ".
They will all burn in Hell!!!!

Wow!!!, I wonder if this type of rhetoric will help change my mind about science?
My degrees in biology and geology may be hard to undermine at this point.

Flip Flop

climber

Earth Planet, Universe

Apr 3, 2016 - 08:27am PT

No offense but your belief system is of zero interest. You can't expect to influence a highly intelligent, free thinker with a world of experiences if you don't use words with meaning.
You do know what blather means, right?

( to Klimmer over at the Trump thread)
I actually dig all that kooky prophecizing. It's hypnotic. I can see how one might get addicted to belief. Creepy. Scary. But definitely a pleasant opiate.

Rational thought and religion will never coexist. And we keep killing your gods. And we always will. All you facists ( and anti-intellectuals) are bound to lose.
Zeus? Dead.
Zoroaster? Dead?
Christ? Double Dead.

John M

climber

Apr 3, 2016 - 09:04am PT

You "Fry"s" of the world, WHEN are you gonna wake up?! Your not here with questions like that of a spirit to learn(exemplified in children)? Your here with presumptions and accusations from your own bias with a prosecutionalary presumption for contempt. Face it, you are 'The Accuser", "The Anti-Christ". Yo gonna burn in the pit of a Sun, shinning rays of energy on all us who live, so Thank you for being the bummer you are today ;)

Blueblocker..

Jesus never taught anyone to hate a person. He taught to turn from evil but love the person doing the evil. On the cross he said, "father, forgive them for they know not what they do". This was an act of Love. Realize that God created that person and loves them. He does not love the sin, but he does Love the sinner. And yes, as the Father he will rebuke sinners. But that is up to Him/Her. It is not up to you. Until and unless you put on the full Christ mind. And even then God is still love and most often rebukes in a gentle manner. When you post like what you have posted then it comes across as yelling. Jesus rebuked the church leaders, but he did not rebuke those not in a spiritual leadership role. He simply realized that they did not understand what they were doing when they resorted to evil, and he tried to make them aware. Not by shouting at them, but by loving them. He also rebuked Satan, but I do not see Satan among those posting here. I see some hard hearts and some upset people, but I do not see Satan. I see his works, but not him.

You do see anger expressed here, and some of it is unfair, but some of it is also fair. Did you not hear those who said they were abused by Christians? Abused by being taught fear as a child. This is something I believe that the church needs to work on. Teaching children, "better behave or god will send you to hell". That is teaching to fear God. There has never been a time when God wanted his creation to fear him. I don't care what the bible says. The translations are wrong. The word should be "awe". Otherwise if the word fear is accurate in the bible then why would God turn around and say over and over.. fear not for I am with you. That would be psychotic. Hey.. fear me, but fear not even though the thing that you are supposed to fear is with you. Can you not see that fallacy in that?

Please try to understand this. Replace fear with awe and you then find the proper attitude. One of respect. And then you can see a reasonable reason for some being upset at being taught fear. This is where people on this forum should be able to come together. Most of the people on this forum have worked on some level to overcome fear. I stand in awe of many of them. Not that I think that they are perfect because they display fearlessness. But rather I respect that fearlessness and try to emulate it in my own life. And the bible does teach to fear not. To rise above your fears. Jesus did not fear Satan. He knew that God was with him. He felt a great sadness at the path Satan had chosen, but he felt a great sadness at those who chose to follow him. Please try to connect to that sadness and the Love behind it and realize that hating will not change anything. It only creates more hate.

The churches teachings on hell are also false, but that is a deeper subject and one which takes time to explain. and this post is long enough.

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 3, 2016 - 09:10am PT

Can atheists love as much as a good Christians??

Why not, what would restrict the level of love available from one's self?

Is it a sin to question the bible?
What sins have I committed?

as far as I'm concerned, I'm sin free.

Does Satan have influence over me?
How can you tell?

Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber

Out Of Bed

Apr 3, 2016 - 09:20am PT

OK Enough already
Let Them have their faith.
when the wind blows and things go bad it is a nice place to take a moment,
Faith will sustain you as you die,
come in out of the cold, why dontcha'
(Shara, No , THNX Locker, , Sarah Palin speak she is a believer and look what prayer got her),

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3521747/Sarah-Palin-shoots-pig-poses-carcass-rifle-issues-plea-Wisconsin-voters-say-status-quo-ahead-Tuesday-s-primary.html
OK enough blather
Hell is real we all live in hell every day.
If yours is grey and their hell is white that is all that one can say.
Be happy, Make peace and happiness a goal and achieve it.
Let them have their LACK of faith
they know not what they do?
yes they do, they do DOO-DOO
so do I and you
it is all the same in the end
My friends our schit stinks.

HEY!

LOCKER

accordingly??, if i spelt it wrong it was a palindrome

John M

climber

Apr 3, 2016 - 09:25am PT

why would you assume that I am talking about you Craig? I was not even thinking of you when I wrote the above post. This conversation has been going on for a long time and there are many who have posted hateful things. On both sides. Its not just about this one thread.

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 3, 2016 - 10:01am PT

I wasn't picking on you John
I was just picking out some talking points that you posted that I wanted to see how Christians would answer.

Like love and sin
and I do want to know how much Satan influences me, that kind of thing is important

John M

climber

Apr 3, 2016 - 10:19am PT

why would it be important if you don't believe he exists?

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 3, 2016 - 10:22am PT

I want to know what Christians think

That's what's important for me to know.
That's why I'm here, to ask questions

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Apr 3, 2016 - 10:32am PT

Limpingcrab, that was a most excellent answer to my question, and a good response to the article. It appears you may have read the whole thing.
You answered in terms of love, about the best that could have been done.
Probably the most disturbing aspect of religion to me are all the judgements and lack of love. I personally see religion as the greatest threat to our world. People like Klimmer, " my god is absolute and perfect, and everyone else is wrong " I find dangerous.

John M

climber

Apr 3, 2016 - 10:37am PT

The problem Craig is that I believe that you only want to know what we "believe/think" so that you can denigrate it or so that others can get their jollies. I'm not interested in enabling that. The bible calls it casting pearls before swine. Someone here will of course interpret that to mean that I called you a swine. But thats not what it means. It means putting knowledge in front of someone who is incapable, for whatever reason, of appreciating it. That can create a feedback loop because they will often misuse the information, thus making karma for them and for the person enabling them. So no thanks.

Edit: Cosmic below posted before I posted my edit:

Edit: besides which, your central question.." what do Christians believe?" is too broad. Christians have a wide range of beliefs. Probably the only central belief is that God exists. From there it goes in almost every direction.

Just as one can not know what atheist believe based on a few posts from a few people on a forum. If one atheist believes in aliens from another planet, am I to apply that to every atheist, or even include it as a belief of atheist? Or course not.

The best you can hope for on this thread is to have some idea of what Daniel believes. And perhaps what I believe, or a few others. But as you should be able to see from this thread. Even with those small numbers, there is a wide variation.

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 3, 2016 - 11:33am PT

I think the BluBlocker is one of the more truthful Christians
He doesn't have the filter that represses his feelings

I think most of think the same thing as BB, and of course that's why I ask

You guys are so easily trapped by your own mind, you can't express or have critical thought of so many ideas.

It's almost impossible to trap a scientist, you can ask Dr. Ed any question and he won't have "faith" issues about his answer
I don't think I have ever had a question that I can't answer honestly, I may be wrong, but their are no traps I set up for myself.

John M

climber

Apr 3, 2016 - 11:42am PT

I think most of think the same thing as BB, and of course that's why I ask

I'm sure that you do. Your bias is obvious. Nice troll by the way.

And this part of why I don't answer you. You have a preconceived notion. Something unscientific by the way. You are attempting to prove your belief and are not open to anything else. Even when faced with someone like Daniel, you still prefer to believe that secretly he has all of Blueblockers biases. or that I have all of his biases.

or I believe the same way Daniel does, even though we have disagreed on this very thread.

Bushman

Social climber

Elk Grove, California

Apr 3, 2016 - 11:43am PT

On Religion and Marriage;

Most couples I've known from my generation have split up. I've often thought it hypocritical that some religious and family values types, who have divorces and family disfunction, would spout their christian and conservative rhetoric to others while being completely unable to reflect such order in their own house.

But who am I to criticize? I am often but a renegade rabble by my own thinking and civility is a reluctant discipline and instinct required of this ex-addict/drunk and ex-climber, dog worshipping, writer/poet wannabe in order to survive.

Marriage, although many times rewarding, requires lots of work and is difficult. I have 'rationalized' my 30 year marriage multiple times on many levels and have always concluded, although the early years of our relationship were more tumultuous, that the deep attraction to my mate has been primarily and mutually beneficial. The best part of it is (this is satisfying to the analytical part of my thinking) that we've always been friends and partners first, but lovers through passion and biological attraction after.

It's curious and perplexing that although we both use caution and reasoning to make most of our decisions together, often as not we don't see eye to eye about many things.

Once a hippie mom/climber's spouse and now grandmother, my wife is also a 30 year civil servant and cancer survivor, who is at heart a 'just in case there's a god' catholic, but she doesn't act on or talk about any of the faith thing but values family and family traditions above all else.

I on the other hand have self deprogrammed myself from religion, bitter agnosticism, and AA speudo-spiritual doctrine. Although I'm sometimes reclusive with my spare time, I have reluctantly and sometimes rebelliously conformed to most social conventions in order to maintain harmony in our marriage and to function in society.

To her I believe our bond is that of the traditional marriage while to me it's a beloved partnership. Compromise and acceptance, and sometimes forgiveness, these are concepts I'm still working towards realizing, ideas being taught me by life and marriage.

On another note.

What happened to the atheist thread? Maybe I should start my own one and just go all atheist all the time and quit trying to stick it to the Christian types, who probably could use a good reach around, but don't deserve of or care to acknowledge my nattering.

-bushman

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 3, 2016 - 12:25pm PT

It was 2 jackets and 2 long sleeve piles
Since I was f-ing cold
and the many JIBs were loaded with Ice, so I even drinking the cold

Not sure I want this praying for me

hard to understand the thought behind that photo manip
I may have to take it down
It seems almost hateful using his own avatar against him???

Norton

Social climber

Apr 3, 2016 - 04:12pm PT

I think a Power of Attorney Repent form works

Norton

Social climber

Apr 3, 2016 - 04:20pm PT

The closest early concept of Hell as a place where those who were not just in life suffer appears for the first time probably in Egyptian religion.

According to the Book of the Dead (≈ 1550 BC), Duat, the Egyptian underworld, is filled with dangerous creatures attacking the dead soul that goes to seek the justice of Osiris (only the knowledge of magical spells can save the dead). Osiris weighs the heart of the dead man on the scales of Ma'at, and if the man is found just, he goes to the paradise of Aaru; if not, the soul is instantly devoured by a giant beast Ammit and is banished to wander the earth for eternity. The critical part is the moral judgement, but still the worst punishment is in Egypt, as in primitive religions, the endless wandering.

https://www.quora.com/Where-and-when-did-the-concept-of-Hell-originate

Fritz

Trad climber

Choss Creek, ID

Apr 3, 2016 - 05:30pm PT

I suspect my story about the day I went climbing with Bruce & Jesus might be of interest to some here.

Summer 1982 I decide a “direct start” for the classic North Ridge Goat Perch route in Idaho’s Sawtooth Mountains would be an “interesting challenge.”

I went in with Bruce: a friend that I had climbed with very little. That mattered not, since this man was in every way my superior. He had the good genes to the max and was: athletic, intelligent, tall, handsome, and fearless. In fact he was just out of the Navy and had been a fighter pilot and then was in the Blue Angels. Oh-----and he was a born-again Christian, but he tolerated my pagan ways & once joked to me:
"I have to believe in God, only he could have made someone as wonderful as me."
Bruce even secretly carried a six-pack of beer up to the lakes under our route, for my drinking pleasure.

The first lead on our north-face Goat’s Perch route, was up a steep chimney/gully, with a jam crack at its back. At the end of the first lead, the choice was overhanging off-width, or an inviting ledge that went left to less-steep terrain above. Bruce led left and quickly turned a corner. The rope stopped. Then he called back, “there’s a little loose rock here.”

In the next half hour, he must have pulled off 10 tons of rock. The snowfield below was soon a blackened war zone. Slowly, the rope played out, then more crashes and booms would shatter the quiet.

At last I heard “On Belay” and followed the lead. The traverse was just horribly-loose, but then I reached the line that he had climbed up to his belay. The granite was simply stacks of small loose blocks, at a 70-80 degree angle. There was some “protection” slotted between obviously loose blocks. It was not an easy lead to follow, and when I reached Bruce I was both scared and angry.

“How could you justify leading that?” I barked.
“Everything is loose and your protection wouldn’t have stopped a falling squirrel”
Bruce thought for a minute and then calmly replied: “It was pretty iffy, but whenever I got to a tough spot I asked Jesus where to go.” He then smiled and added: “he takes care of me.”

Never before had someone asserted to me: that Jesus took a personal interest in his climbing.

I was truly staggered. I clipped into the belay nuts, noting that they were worthless to stop a leader fall. Rappeling was out of the question, since we were now above an overhang. Down-climbing did not seem like a good option either.
After some water and a little small talk, I decided that based on prior success: Bruce and Jesus could lead the next pitch too.

That pitch was not as bad, but it was worse for me: since I was now in the direct line of rock fall. I hung the pack above me and cowered as stones clattered by. The only rocks that hit me were mercifully small. Once again, when I followed the lead, the rock was all loose. The protection that Bruce & Jesus had placed would probably not have stopped a leader fall.

Another similar, but easier lead for Bruce & Jesus followed.

When I reached Bruce again, I realized we were very close to where the North Ridge route started. We had done a “significant direct-start variation.” I was able to do a traverse over to the ridge on reasonably good rock. Bruce was however, very disappointed in me. I adamantly refused to continue up the standard North Ridge route with him and Jesus.
I did not write the route up, since any future parties might not have the divine protection that we had experienced.

I also confess: I did not “see the light” and continued in my pagan ways.

So? Do the Christians on this thread climb with Jesus the same way, or was I climbing with Saint Bruce?

John M

climber

Apr 3, 2016 - 05:53pm PT

Hell over God is an understandable CHOICE???...

Locker,

try it this way.

what I believe Dean is trying to say is that the person doesn't knowingly chose hell. So it becomes understandable why someone would turn from God if their only experience in this lifetime was abuse from some so called religious people. They don't realize that they are choosing hell, and they have little to no reference for what God is, so it becomes understandable why they chose what they do. It is only from the perspective of knowing about hell, that one can see the consequences and make informed decisions. Its like the child who won't eat their vegetables. They only know that they don't like the taste. Not the consequences of their decision.

Does that help you understand? And by no means Dean, am I claiming that this is absolutely what you are saying. If I am mistaken, then please forgive me.
......

To add to the above. I realize that most Christians don't believe in reincarnation, but it is in my opinion the only way to explain many questions that people have. In this case, I believe the above person would simply be given another lifetime to work things out. but one must understand also that it is ones karma that puts one in the above situation. The above person is not blameless as karma follows us from lifetime to lifetime. We reap what we sow. Again, I fully understand that most Christians do not accept this teaching.

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2016 - 05:56pm PT

Oh, I think I understand. What I meant in my original response (re: hallucinogenic plants) was basically that I don't know, maybe they evolved those chemicals as a deterrent to predators or maybe God made them that way, and maybe he did so so we can hallucinate? I really have no idea because it's not addressed in the Bible. Your questioned looked like it was asked under the assumption that using those plants is "bad" according to Jesus. The rest of my response was to explain that the bible doesn't say it's bad, but does say that we should obey laws and not do things that others might see as sinful so that we don't cause confusion or make Christians look like hypocrites. That's why I don't partake, at least. Did that clarify it a bit?

This was directed at BLUEBLOCR so I'll stay out of it.

Fair enough. As a side note, I believe this is another example of the Bible understanding human nature and giving us insights into what to expect. I'll put all of 1st Corinthians chapter 1:18-23 here, instead of just citing it:
//18 The message of the cross is foolish to those who are headed for destruction! But we who are being saved know it is the very power of God. 19 As the Scriptures say,

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise
and discard the intelligence of the intelligent.”[e]

20 So where does this leave the philosophers, the scholars, and the world’s brilliant debaters? God has made the wisdom of this world look foolish. 21 Since God in his wisdom saw to it that the world would never know him through human wisdom, he has used our foolish preaching to save those who believe. 22 It is foolish to the Jews, who ask for signs from heaven. And it is foolish to the Greeks, who seek human wisdom. 23 So when we preach that Christ was crucified, the Jews are offended and the Gentiles say it’s all nonsense.
//

Can atheists love as much as a good Christians??

Why not, what would restrict the level of love available from one's self?

I believe that anyone can experience love, but I also believe that knowing the love of Jesus is unique (Philippians 3:8)

Is it a sin to question the bible?
What sins have I committed?

I think it is normal, and maybe even important, to question everything you believe, even the Bible. It is full of people questioning God to try to learn or understand (Psalms 10:1-18, 1st Corinthians 13:22).

Does Satan have influence over me?
How can you tell?

I believe Satan is a master deceiver (John 8:44). I think an example of this comes from the "hindsight is 20/20" saying. Think back to mistakes you have made, that make you ask yourself what in the world you were thinking and how you could have possibly thought it was a good decision, and I believe that is when you were deceived.

Question:

If they do not repent before they die...

are they doomed to Hell???...

I believe people who do not accept the love and forgiveness of Christ are dooming themselves to eternal separation from him (2nd Thessalonians 1:9). Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how the Bible reads to me and I trust that God is just and fair (Psalms 25:8).

Bushman

Social climber

Elk Grove, California

Apr 3, 2016 - 06:04pm PT

My question earlier was, "Doesn't God also sin?" When I see the injustice of the world and the monsters like Hitler and Bin Laden that nature and man have created I have to ask, if there were a god, what would his part be in it?Ignore me if you must for I probably sound like a very confused athiest to be entering into your Christianity contest this way but for me it's an honest question.

I really am interested in how people of faith deal with this question and wonder what are their thoughts besides the pat answers; such is god's will, or God allows evil in order for people to seek redemption, or something along those lines. My favorite one (not) is that we are not capable of understanding all of gods plan, or our place is not to question his work.

Woe be unto the widow or family when they're grieving the loss of a loved one and the preacher hands down such platitudes. I can only imagine how inadequate the explanation would resonate for some parents who have lost a child to a murderer to be counseled with "They are no longer suffering, for now they are in God's loving hands." That one is so heartbreaking that I wonder why more clergy don't suffer the broken jaw.

Majid_S

Mountain climber

Karkoekstan

Apr 3, 2016 - 06:08pm PT

why there are so many churches in Bay area ?

Lorenzo

Trad climber

Portland Oregon

Apr 3, 2016 - 06:17pm PT

The Bay Area?

There are 16 churches in Littlestown PA, which has a population of 4,400. That's one church for every 275 people. Pretty amazing when you consider the place is about a third Amish and they meet in homes and barns.

San Fransisco has a church for every 1,565 people.
(15th out of 20 major cities)

WBraun

climber

Apr 3, 2016 - 06:26pm PT

Meanwhile the so called "Christians" maintain industrialized slaughterhouses and kill kill kill
in the most barbaric methods, mistreat other living entities horrendously, all while preaching love and thou shalt not kill.

All while claiming animals have no soul and we have dominion over them, and can kill them in any way we want.

Such violent hypocritical consciousness ......

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2016 - 06:28pm PT

So? Do the Christians on this thread climb with Jesus the same way, or was I climbing with Saint Bruce?

Ha! That's an awesome story. I do pray before each climb but I don't know that I've taken it that far.

Before I climbed I was a competitive snowboarder and wanted to make a career out of it so I would try things that weren't too smart. Before each of these moments I would pray and ask God to keep me alive and prevent any permanent injury. This was my attempt at accepting responsibility for making a poor choice by dealing with regular injuries, or something like that.

This whole area of faith, trust and God's will is an interesting one to think about and I like to hear stories about how other people live it out. Even when they look like crazies, ha!

No atheists in a foxhole!

I agree with Cragman's answer above. I would also add that, for me personally, I take heart in the verse about how this life is just a little blip when compared to spending eternity with God (Romans 8:18). I also think some of those "pat answers" have some merit :)

As to you last paragraph, I believe the Bible tells us to comfort people and not spend too much time trying to justify their loss or cheer them up (Romans 12:15)

why there are so many churches in Bay area ?

I believe Jesus told us that this would happen (Matthew 24:14). And like minded people like to meet together (climbing get togethers).

rottingjohnny

Sport climber

Shetville , North of Los Angeles

Apr 3, 2016 - 06:31pm PT

Fritz...It's time change your pagan ways...Nudie flicks , beer busts , and other naughty rituals at the choss ranch under the spell of the inukshuks will lead to total damnation..rj

Fritz

Trad climber

Choss Creek, ID

Apr 3, 2016 - 07:15pm PT

RJ! Thanks for the advice:

Fritz...It's time change your pagan ways...Nudie flicks , beer busts , and other naughty rituals at the choss ranch under the spell of the inukshuks will lead to total damnation..rj

I think its time to check your grammer & sentence structure on ST posts.

Does Heidi's Solstice Lingam with lights offend Jesus, or is that another one of the things that get judged after death, which is a typical way of Christians saying:

Doode, I haven't a clue, but I will pass this one on to God.

How wonderful never to have to decide anything on your own. You can just quote the bible, or side-step the question with something like: "that will be decided by God."

WBraun

climber

Apr 3, 2016 - 07:22pm PT

You've never decided anything on your own period.

You don't even own your own body.

Everything you so called decide is ultimately carried out by God thru his different energies .......

Flip Flop

climber

Earth Planet, Universe

Apr 3, 2016 - 07:54pm PT

Knowitally Proclamation
Selfie Servicing Delusion
Yup
You dum dum.
Life is going to fill your plate
And pop your bubbles.
And Jesus ain't never coming to save you.
And when you die, poof!
No more limping duck
No more human delusion
Y'all are cave men
Stuck in your old, scaredy minds.

Fritz

Trad climber

Choss Creek, ID

Apr 3, 2016 - 08:26pm PT

WBRAUN! Re your post:

Apr 3, 2016 - 07:22pm PT
You've never decided anything on your own period.

You don't even own your own body.

Everything you so called decide is ultimately carried out by God thru his different energies .......

I've decided you are a tough, interesting, somewhat crazy, but significant, curmudgeon,

Please Post on with my godless blessings.

It's fun to see your thoughts.

Flip Flop

climber

Earth Planet, Universe

Apr 3, 2016 - 08:31pm PT

Werner writes:

Everything you so called decide is ultimately carried out by God thru his different

Then he's the biggest crankloon. And a schizzo to boot.

Can you rate your childhood indoctrination on a scale of 1-10. Climbers are nutso but you're extra specially maladjusted. Care to explain?

Karen

Trad climber

Prescott, AZ ~ God's country!!!!

Apr 3, 2016 - 08:37pm PT

Oh childhood indoctrination .... Oh how it becomes ingrained !!!

Flip Flop

climber

Earth Planet, Universe

Apr 3, 2016 - 09:00pm PT

Evidence shows that victims of childhood indoctrination are highly suggestible and unable to differentiate between fact and fantasy.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Apr 3, 2016 - 09:07pm PT

Why does God ALLOW discrimination to continue against Women???...

Looker, you and your cohorts seem to think IF there's such a thing as a loving god, then he would be proving himself here today? For everyone to see!.....

Obliviously you've never read the bible?.....

otherwise maybe your questioning would have more relevancy? .....

Even the mediators say, "you gotta do the work"!.....

y'all seem to be trolling for bait....

;)

WBraun

climber

Apr 3, 2016 - 09:15pm PT

childhood indoctrination

LMAO .... maybe you have too much childhood indoctrination.

I was born into a family of atheists.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Apr 3, 2016 - 09:16pm PT

Stuck in your old, scaredy minds.

you can't even be more wrong.....

from day 1 peace where there was none.....

you haven't read the bible either....

Flip Flop

climber

Earth Planet, Universe

Apr 3, 2016 - 09:33pm PT

Nah, I didn't get that stuff.

Okay W, what's with the short circuit? It's got like 4 notes. Crankloon. Gross Materialist, superiority, and fundamentalist certainty. Kinda simplistic and humdrum feedback loop. Looks kooky from the outside. Kinda repetitive. What gives?

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Apr 3, 2016 - 09:36pm PT

Oh childhood indoctrination .... Oh how it becomes ingrained !!!

i think if you look around there are more child indoctrinated, dis-believing the gospel than visa-versa.....

many have grown up loving spiderman, yet you barely see anyone dawning the red and blue suit?

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2016 - 09:42pm PT

Why does God ALLOW discrimination to continue against Women???...

I believe the same answer applies to this as to all of the questions about suffering and people doing terrible things. Basically, we have free will (Genesis 2:16-17), humans chose to take advantage of that (Romans 5:12). Just as parents give advice and children still have to make their own decisions. In the same way, there are consequences for those decisions (Romans 6:23).

I think a lot of these questions come from a person's perspective. Seeing earth and thinking that that's the end vs seeing earth with an eternal perspective can change things.

There's also the hurdle of getting past the antiquated scientific belief that women had different evolutionary selective pressures resulting in underdeveloped brains (Kelves, Fee, Darwin, Vogt, Van Valen, etc etc etc...)

;) (just being annoying with that last bit, not trying to start something)

Some people say, thank you God, when something good happens.

I wonder if they also say, fuk you God, when something bad happens. I think not.

Not fair, don't you think?

Some do, some don't, probably. I believe we should give thanks in all things (Romans 5:3-4, James 1:2-3, 1 peter 1:6-7, 1st Thessalonians 5:18). I don't think this means that we can't grieve or be sad, but that we have that long term, optimistic perspective.

I believe God knows how we work and gives us all the tools we need to live a rich life. I also think that people try to mimic what people who study the Bible have known, thinking that they are new ideas. We were designed to spend time in prayer (now people meditate) and we were told why we can give thanks in all circumstances (now people use cognitive behavioral therapy to improve their outlook). With Christ and each other I believe we have what we need.

The Love on ST is just so AWESOME.

I sincerely love you all! I don't think it's possible to hate someone unless you've lived their life and know exactly how they became who they are. That, and we're supposed to love everyone because that's how people will know you follow Jesus (John 13:34-35)

WBraun

climber

Apr 3, 2016 - 09:50pm PT

what's with the short circuit?

Good roooot although short, me and Charlie Porter found it.

Keep sh!t simple, anything beyond that here will never work and will over tax the simple brains here.

Although most nothing works here anyways ..... :-)

Bushman

Social climber

Elk Grove, California

Apr 3, 2016 - 10:13pm PT

Do I have to keep posting stuff here or will God let me go to sleep? It's past my bedtime.

Limpingcrab; "No atheists in a foxhole!"

I beg to differ...

http://militaryatheists.org/atheists-in-foxholes/

I heard about this organization years ago at an AA mtg on a military base.

MAAF maintains a roster of Atheists in Foxholes, just in case there are any rumors that we don't exist. The next time you hear someone repeat that old myth, just send them here to see how atheists have served honorably in combat - always have, always will.

Delhi Dog

climber

Good Question...

Apr 3, 2016 - 10:25pm PT

I also know that herding cats is difficult at best. Please, however, don't provide a link on that topic too ;).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk7yqlTMvp8

come on, too funny not to post

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Apr 3, 2016 - 10:43pm PT

^^^ must be the canadian west, eh?

Flip Flop

climber

Earth Planet, Universe

Apr 3, 2016 - 10:44pm PT

Jesus invented donuts?!? But like Swayze in Ghost right? From behind.

Flip Flop

climber

Earth Planet, Universe

Apr 3, 2016 - 10:59pm PT

Go away culty as#@&%es. Go to your holes and threads of stupidity. Go mingle with other fanciful thinkers on religious sites to find out how stupid you look.

You're being as#@&%es by gumming up the front page with selfish prosthletizing lies.

Christians have made me hate them. Bad people, really.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Apr 4, 2016 - 12:01am PT

sorry Fliper wasn't intending to piss you off.

i'll lean on humor sometimes when caught in the headlights.

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2016 - 08:53am PT

Do I have to keep posting stuff here or will God let me go to sleep? It's past my bedtime.
Limpingcrab; "No atheists in a foxhole!"

I beg to differ...

http://militaryatheists.org/atheists-in-foxholes/

Ha! Ya, it was more of a joke, but still referring to the tendency people have to put their trust in something/someone when it comes down to the line. No doubt that atheists can serve well in combat.

The cat herding video is awesome. I remember when that aired during a superbowl.

dirtbag

climber

Apr 4, 2016 - 09:06am PT

LC, I'm not a Christian but I give you a lot of credit for putting it out there and starting a thread like this.

rbord

Boulder climber

atlanta

Apr 4, 2016 - 10:46am PT

Aw Christians are OK.

I've got leprechauns of my own,
creeping around just out of sight,
tucking me in to bed at night,
helping my brain get some healthy respite.

We all do.

Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber

Apr 4, 2016 - 11:08am PT

You know, if they passed out a nice cider donut at Communion, instead of that wispy bit of styrofoam..... or at least offered a selection of toppings for the wisp... I'm thinking a dollop of whitefish spread.... the Jewish people figured that one out - donuts AND Whitefish!

As for "Ask a Christian," I have no query. But I really have no respect for people who tout their religious faith(ANY faith) and then go on about their day with only their big mouth to show for it, especially when the mouth contradicts what the rest of them is all about.

I went to Catholic grade school, and several times during my early life(up to 25 years old, actually), had thoughts about sisterhood. It was 9th grade and the nun who tried to hit on me during the private music lessons she was supposed to be giving me, and then stopped even bothering to show up, that I realized I could be just as of service without hitching my wagon to something so fallible as organized religion.

I still respect "faith," but I resent hostility from "the faithful." The only thing that chaps my hide more, in that regard, is some recently discoverer of eastern philosophy using "namaste" instead of see ya later."

fear

Ice climber

hartford, ct

Apr 4, 2016 - 11:16am PT

LC, I'm not a Christian but I give you a lot of credit for putting it out there and starting a thread like this.

Ditto that....

Although the REAL BALLS award will go to the first "Ask a Muslim" thread.

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Apr 4, 2016 - 11:32am PT

I'd like to ask a Christian:

I was raised Christian, Christian school, church 3 times a week.

But I foudnd the vast majority to be money-centered hypocrites.

Why does modern Christianity attract so many hypocrites?

like why do most evangelicals support Trump for president?

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Ontario, Canada, eh?

Apr 4, 2016 - 12:48pm PT

"Although the REAL BALLS award will go to the first "Ask a Muslim" thread."

So why is it that it is so fashionable to beat up Christians here on McTopo? You guys can be pretty mean to Believers, yet for some reason it is acceptable?

What if you guys said the same thing about Muslims as you say here about Christians? What would be the reaction?

Or what if you beat up on the Jews? What would Piton Ron say?

Reilly

Mountain climber

The Other Monrovia- CA

Apr 4, 2016 - 12:53pm PT

Pete, the self-avowed atheists are really just a bunch of closet Proddies
still trapped within their eternal guilt so they need to pretend to be
accepting of Jews and Muslims while hatin' on Christians.

In the same vein Robespierre was a famous libertarian until he came to
power and then he became all like:

"Damn, don't need that sh!t any more, sharpen up that guillotine thang!"

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2016 - 01:37pm PT

I'd like to ask a Christian:

I was raised Christian, Christian school, church 3 times a week.

But I found the vast majority to be money-centered hypocrites.

Why does modern Christianity attract so many hypocrites?

like why do most evangelicals support Trump for president?

I think humans are naturally hypocrites (Romans 3:23, Matthew 7:3-5) and churches are full of humans. I believe the big difference is whether or not they acknowledge it.

I can't speak for why anyone supports anyone for president, and I honestly don't even know much about politics. I'm sure there are a million and one theories about this. It bums me out that the term "Christian" has so many other labels attached to it beyond the love of Jesus. I believe that's where a lot of the misconceptions about Christianity come from, and part of the reason I started this thread.

Contractor

Boulder climber

Apr 4, 2016 - 03:08pm PT

void of religious beliefs can you:

Have a humanistic moral compass? YES
Have spirituality? YES
Love and forgive? YES
Achieve eternal life? Who knows?

Through Religious beliefs can you:

Have a humanistic moral compass? YES
Have spirituality? YES
Love and forgive? YES
Achieve eternal life? Who Knows?

Let Christians, let God be their master if they live well and let men/women be their own master if they live well.

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Apr 4, 2016 - 03:25pm PT

crab,

thanks for your response. I have no problem with Christ and what he taught, but the church is such a pile of conservative politics, Trump-level hate these days that I doubt I will ever step foot in one again.

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Ontario, Canada, eh?

Apr 4, 2016 - 03:38pm PT

"Why does modern Christianity attract so many hypocrites?"

We're all hypocrites. That is the nature of man. Christianity attracts the broken, the hurt, the imperfect. It's BECAUSE of our imperfections which we recognize, that we seek God's love and forgiveness and the Holy Spirit's help through Christ's redemptive payment.

If you already think you are bitchin' enough, then why do you need God's help with anything?

Most of the Christians that I know are Lowlier-than-thou. We need all the help we can get. [I know I sure do! Thank God. Without His help, I would be even more insufferable than I already am.] Most of us Believers feel amazed that God can and does love wretches like us. And the reason that God loves us has nothing to do with our "loveableness", but rather it is due to the nature of God, who defines himself as love. [1 John 4]

Perhaps the Holier-than-thou attitude of some Christians is more of a Merrican thing? I don't really know any like that - honest!

"Achieve eternal life? Who Knows?"

I know.

The preponderance of evidence is highly in favour of this being true. How many hundreds of people saw Jesus cheat death? Was it around five hundred? I can't remember. What about Thomas, the dude who wouldn't believe until he actually touched the wounds of the risen Christ? It's a pretty compelling story, to me.

Even more compelling: What about Jesus' disciples, who lived with him and saw him cheat death? Eleven of the twelve were put to death for their beliefs - really painful deaths, man. Legend has it that Peter was crucified upside down, but there is not a lot of historical proof of this. Only John died of old age - lucky bugger considering what happened to the rest.

Not one of them - even under pain of torture - was willing to renounce his faith. They all died - for Christ's sake! [Ha, that was fun to say, I generally don't blaspheme]

Why were they willing to die? Because they had SEEN with their own two eyes the risen Jesus! They were eyewitnesses to a guy who had been killed, and returned from the dead. How cool is that??

So let me ask you guys this - would YOU be willing to die for a lie?

rbord

Boulder climber

atlanta

Apr 4, 2016 - 03:44pm PT

Limpingcrab - just use Christian to mean what you mean by it.

I know it helped me a lot to just redefine the word God to just mean what I mean by it. Then it didn't really bother me when other people said wrong things about her, like that she vouches for the truth of the bible, because they're talking about what they meant by God, not what I know, and if they get it wrong, ok. Theyre just doing the same thing we are.

Lurkingtard

climber

Apr 4, 2016 - 03:47pm PT

Did you know Jerry Lee Lewis and Jimmy Swaggert are cousins?

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Ontario, Canada, eh?

Apr 4, 2016 - 03:51pm PT

Locker,

I can say with certainty I would probably be dead by now, without God's help and love. This is not "imaginary". This is an empirical observation.

If you have never trusted God, then who are you to know if his help is imaginary, or not?

Is God a crutch? HELL YEAH! I need all the help I can get, man! God is MY CRUTCH!

Ha! Praise the LORD and pass the pitons, man! I thank God for everything he has done for me in my life, for saving my ass from my own sorry self, for showing me cool things and taking me cool places, and I publicly proclaim that Jesus Christ [no H. in the middle] is mah LAWD and Saviour! Ah am startin' to sound like a Merrican! Next thing you know ah will be pro-nouncin' mah consonant-suh at the end of mah word-sah:

"Praise Gee-sus-sah!"

Good grief, Locker - I'm not trolling. It's freaking historically documented. Witnesses! I'll leave our historian Limping Crab to cite the historical eyewitness evidence of the resurrection.

Ya can't make this sh|t up, dude. Don't you GET it? These guys DIED because they SAW!

Would YOU die for a lie, Locker?

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Ontario, Canada, eh?

Apr 4, 2016 - 03:56pm PT

Answer the question, Locker....

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Ontario, Canada, eh?

Apr 4, 2016 - 03:58pm PT

Would you be willing to die for a lie? Something you knew to be untrue?

Maybe just to make a point, or to propagate some phantasmic conspiracy or something?

Norton

Social climber

Apr 4, 2016 - 04:08pm PT

I do believe that a HUMAN BEING named Jesus may well have lived and preached about "GOD" and such...

I don't

there is no record, none, in the Roman archives of a man names Jesus being crucified

in fact there is no record of a man named Jesus being ascribed any non human attributes until at least three generations of humans were born and died after his supposed death, and the reference is very, very vague, somewhere between 70-120 years after he supposedly lived and died

here's is just one source, out of many regarding the above

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Apr 4, 2016 - 04:09pm PT

sorry Locker,

unless you are as excited about Jesus as these guys, and believe everything in the Bible as 100% true, you are GOING TO HELL!

It's freaking historically documented. Witnesses!

No it isn't, and there aren't

but that's where faith comes in right?

The church I grew up in believed they could change the weather, just for them, by praying. Do you have this level of faith?

Contractor

Boulder climber

Apr 4, 2016 - 04:11pm PT

Pete-

I know

I would expect a man of true faith to take umbrage to that question. I honstly believe you know- your a blessed man.

I, however, don't take umbrage to people who may question values and beliefs that have been forged through science and introspection. I've reconciled the prospect of impending and eternal non-existence, which alters the way I live, in no way.

micronut

Trad climber

Fresno/Clovis, ca

Apr 4, 2016 - 04:21pm PT

Norton you claimed above that there are no records in Roman history of non-biblical accounts of Jesus and his crucifixion. That's not true.

There are several well documented historical texts of non biblical origin that at least mention Christ and his life and crucifixion. Just for your information.

Look up some of the writings of Tacitus, Julius Africanus, and Pliny The Younger (No relation to the fastatsic beer sadly)

Tacitus (c. A.D. 55 - c. A.D. 117)

Annals, book XV:
"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular."

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Ontario, Canada, eh?

Apr 4, 2016 - 04:21pm PT

So Locker,

assuming you hung around with Jesus, who preached about God and stuff, and you thought he was cool and all, and he had some great teachings about "love thy neighbour" and stuff like this...

[Note: Jesus would have spelled it "neighbour", because as everyone knows, God is an Englishman]

Anyway, so you hung with Jesus for three years, and heard him say some other pretty rad things, and he basically claimed to not just represent God or be God's son, but actually to kind of BE God. And maybe you even thought he was bit crazy, but whatever, he was still cool cuz of all this other stuff he taught.

But then he kind of got too big for his britches. The religious and legal authorities caught wind of him, and accused your buddy of fomenting a revolution. So they did the logical thing: they put him to death.

So now, you're pretty bummed, cuz your teacher and friend is dead.

But guess what? Three days later, he's baaaaaaack! Living, breathing, you talk to him, touch him, give him a hug. It ain't bullsh"t, the dude has cheated death.

Suddenly you realize - BECAUSE he cheated death - that this ain't no normal dude with some cool ideas. He really IS the Lord!

So not only did he promise you eternal life, he PROVED to you that it could be done! You saw it happen with your own two eyes. So now, Locker, you saw the hokus pokus. You actually saw it happen.

Imagine yourself, Locker, in this situation. A witness. How would you feel? What would you think?

Without the resurrection, the whole Christianity exercise would be pointless, and probably a waste of time. Jesus would have been just another guy, nice teacher and all, whatever. {shrug}

But WITH the resurrection?? He ain't no regular dude.

And you guys are missing the point - this isn't about religion, which is about a set of rules. It's about having a personal relationship with your creator!

So what about the "proof"? That the resurrection happened? That Jesus cheated death, came back as Lord? That I actually BELIEVE the hokus pokus? Am I a dumbass? Have I been brainwashed by the modern day Pharisees at church who preach religion - a set of rules?

Do *I* - the quintessential dirtbag - seem like the kind of guy to you that would subscribe to a set of RULES??? Really??

And do you think I - a Professional Engineer who studied science and proof and mathematics and stuff - would believe in God without having checked to see if there might actually be reasonable EVIDENCE supporting my beliefs?

My faith isn't blind, that's for sure. And to me, the most compelling evidence is the resurrection, the eyewitnesses accounts, and the willingness of the participants to die for their belief. This is what sold me the most. That and the empirical evidence I mentioned above.

And to other guys: There is all sorts of historical evidence to support the resurrection! Tons of it.

But you're missing the point there, too - you have to look at what happened to the people who were actually THERE at the time, and how it affected their lives thereafter.....

micronut

Trad climber

Fresno/Clovis, ca

Apr 4, 2016 - 04:22pm PT

Another account from the time of Christ by a guy who had nothing to do with the Bible.

Josephus (A.D. 37 - c. A.D. 100)

Josephus' Antiquities (early 2nd century A.D.) refers to Jesus in two separate passages. The common translation of the first passage, Book 18, Ch. 3, part 3, is disputed and is most likely from an altered source. F. F. Bruce has provided a more likely translation:

Now there arose at this time a source of further trouble in one Jesus, a wise man who performed surprising works, a teacher of men who gladly welcome strange things. He led away many Jews, and also many of the Gentiles. He was the so-called Christ. When Pilate, acting on information supplied by the chief men around us, condemned him to the cross, those who had attached themselves to him at first did not cease to cause trouble, and the tribe of Christians, which has taken this name from him is not extinct even today.

The translations of this passage are discussed in Josephus: Testimonium Flavianum from Jesus.com.au.

The second passage is from Book 20, Ch. 9, part 1:

...so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned...

Obviously this doesn't prove he "rose again", just that there were some non biblical cats out there who at least believed he existed.

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 4, 2016 - 04:34pm PT

Die for a lie?

the problem is that personal truth is not the same as facts.

Is the earth flat?
many people died that said the earth was round, they were put to death by Christians

Millions died for a LIE and millions will die in the future "for a lie"

Take religion out, and far fewer will die for a lie

Biblical scholars have debated if the resurrection was a fact or a made up after the fact, the early docs don't support the resurrection story

look it up

No Resurrection, No -what was it again?
"it would be pointless"

Critical thought experiment!!!
What if there was no life after death?
What if it was proven that once you die, that's it, the soul does not live on.
How would this influence your religious beliefs?

Contractor

Boulder climber

Apr 4, 2016 - 04:43pm PT

Pete, you could've stopped at "I know", who can question your faith? You and your savior- that's it...

The hard evidence thing gets plain whacky my friend.

cintune

climber

Colorado School of Mimes

Apr 4, 2016 - 04:51pm PT

...you christians should cede the floor to the OP. Trust me brothers, he handles the pulpit way way WAY better than you.

Really? Seems like he begs off on answering any real questions, albeit in a kinda charming humble aw-shucks love-me sorta way. But whatever.

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 4, 2016 - 05:01pm PT

What amazes me is that seemingly intelligent people don't understand basic human psychology.

If you put a child in front on the TV and play the "Crocodile Hunter" for years, and tell the kid that Steve Irwin is God, and he died for your sins.
And we write a book about Steve, that builds him up and lies about reality, but we do it as an experiment.... what would happen

That kid will be able to "see", "talk to", "get advice from", "have him save me when I was in a desperate situation" -- STEVE IRWIN, the crocodile hunter!!!

That why all Religions are convinced that they are 100% correct.
Basic Human Psychology preprograms us to want to believe

And of course every other Religion is wrong, Steve Irwin is the only true God, he told me so, and he saved my ass, I can prove it with my story.

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Apr 4, 2016 - 05:02pm PT

Contractor,

spot on.

IMO, Mennonites are about the closest to true Christians there are. I am not talking an individual's 'walk with Christ', but as a group genuinely working to live simply and help others in Christ's name.

The whole War Sponsored By Jesus and Murica! thing in this country is absolutely disgusting.

Contractor

Boulder climber

Apr 4, 2016 - 05:03pm PT

Craig, aren't you an older guy? Wouldn't that have been Marlin Perkins?

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 4, 2016 - 05:08pm PT

No way
Now that Bindy has blossomed

I'm 58, 6'2", 190 lb

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Apr 4, 2016 - 05:09pm PT

It would be so cool if Steve Irwin rose from the dead.

Contractor

Boulder climber

Apr 4, 2016 - 05:13pm PT

Not to mention the episode in Indo, when Steve Irwin was throwing some buckets of salt water (surfing) with style and power, in his trademark khaki birdwatching garb. Loved that guy!

please, someone post that footage

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Ontario, Canada, eh?

Apr 4, 2016 - 05:28pm PT

"Critical thought experiment!!!
What if there was no life after death?
What if it was proven that once you die, that's it, the soul does not live on.
How would this influence your religious beliefs?"

Then Jesus would have been a liar. The whole premise would be a load of bunk. And I would not believe.

The resurrection is fundamental to my belief.

Craig: excellent thought re Steve Irwin on TV.

WHY would the child believe Steve was God? And that Steve died for his sins? What would be his basis for this belief?

If someone held a knife to the child's throat and said, do you REALLY believe Steve is God and died for your sins? Because if you do, I'm going to kill you. But if you say you don't believe Steve is God, I'll let you go?

Craig, what do you believe the child would do, and why?

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Apr 4, 2016 - 05:29pm PT

(cough cough)

hey man, we all got our jobs to do right? your doing yours, and we're doin ours..

why do you think Jesus had 12 apostles? maybe it was because they had 12 different character's, and Jesus wanted 12 different opinions to keep track of His walk? Everyone comes from a different point of understanding, and one man's voice may not resonate to every listener.

The way in which the bible is written amazes me.. You can here one preacher's sermon on John 1, and learn a truth. Then hear another preacher's message and learn something entirely different. But both will be entirely true.

The book is true and alive. The more you can understand about how Jesus' word's affected the different people's character He was talking to, the more opportunity i see one using His word's in their own life..

but yeah, limpingcrab is doing a fantastic job with his words!

i'm learning here too.

cintune

climber

Colorado School of Mimes

Apr 4, 2016 - 05:30pm PT

Is Steve Irwin the Messiah?
Well, I came to that assumption when I was watching hs show on Animal Planet last night. As the program went to a commercial break, it said "The Crocodile Hunter Will Be Back".

http://www.inthemix.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=184775

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Apr 4, 2016 - 05:31pm PT

FACT EDIT:

"Take religion out, and far fewer will die for a lie"...

^^^

FACT!!!...

prove it then, please.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Apr 4, 2016 - 05:34pm PT

If you put a child in front on the TV and play the "Crocodile Hunter" for years, and tell the kid that Steve Irwin is God, and he died for your sins.
And we write a book about Steve, that builds him up and lies about reality, but we do it as an experiment.... what would happen

That kid will be able to "see", "talk to", "get advice from", "have him save me when I was in a desperate situation" -- STEVE IRWIN, the crocodile hunter!!!

is that what happened to you? meow...

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 4, 2016 - 05:37pm PT

He saved me last night
I was in free soloing the first couple pitches of Space Babble, and I started to slip, but luckily, I was talking to Steve, and he talked me back off the edge, and I was able to get power directly from him, I almost levitated the move crux moves, it was like magic, the Locker resoles did aid in some of the lower thin friction moves

But If I didn't have Steve there with me, I would have been a goner...
That's my story and you will have to prove me wrong to question it.

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Apr 4, 2016 - 05:38pm PT

tThe way in which the bible is written amazes me.. You can here one preacher's sermon on John 1, and learn a truth. Then hear another preacher's message and learn something entirely different. But both will be entirely true

the Bible had many, many revisions, but you believe the bible to be the exacts words of the Apostles?

[url="http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_translations_in_the_Middle_Ages"]http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_translations_in_the_Middle_Ages[/url]

good luck proving that.

just have faith bro!

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Apr 4, 2016 - 05:43pm PT

The evil bible is a fun website that some, not all, here might enjoy.

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 4, 2016 - 05:45pm PT

Oh, boy
Do you even know how to Google??

there is an endless supply of facts that say secular nations have far LESS Death from all causes!
The more religious, the more Death

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/our-humanity-naturally/201103/misinformation-and-facts-about-secularism-and-religion

Criminal Behavior:

Citing four different studies, Zuckerman states: "Murder rates are actually lower in more secular nations and higher in more religious nations where belief in God is widespread." He also states: "Of the top 50 safest cities in the world, nearly all are in relatively non-religious countries."

Do you really need to deny human psychology?
I think we need to look into this further, such an interesting subject; denial of scientific research.
Of course no one denies all the other millions of scientific information that gives us GPS, I-phones and medical advances that keep millions alive.
It's only the things that moneyed interests have intentionally brainwashed people for all these years that they specifically deny.

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Apr 4, 2016 - 05:47pm PT

another pesky 'fact' from 'science'

camels in the bible:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/20/world/meast/do-camel-bones-discredit-the-bible/

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Apr 4, 2016 - 05:54pm PT

good luck proving that.

well, the original words are in greek right? That's why it's severely important to bring all definitions from the languages. And morely important to bring in everything the entire bible say's pertaining that certain verse, or word!

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Apr 4, 2016 - 06:04pm PT

Do you really need to deny human psychology?
I think we need to look into this further, such an interesting subject; denial of scientific research.

soo, your say'in when believers flock up they start shot'in everyone?

couldn't it be the opposite? when believers start hearding, the wolves circle for the kill?

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Apr 4, 2016 - 06:05pm PT

you mean like the word homosexual is mentioned twice, but love countless times, yet the Church consistently fights against the right of gays?

but, sure everyone is hypocrite like Pete said, so is this the excuse for denying the rights to a group the church does't understand?

sounds like the mixing of church and state to me

and nothing to do what what Christ said.

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 4, 2016 - 06:06pm PT

soo, your say'in when believers flock up they start shot'in everyone?

couldn't it be the opposite? when believers start hearding, the wolves circle for the kill?
BB

Yea, you got me BB

WTF? are you talking about?
Herding???

Steve says NOooooooooo

And if you have the gumption, please interpret your post for the rest of us

I would also love to hear more about this "Accuser" and "Anti-Christ"

have they been in the news lately?
Can you post some links?
They have some part in this evolution scam, right?

Lurkingtard

climber

Apr 4, 2016 - 06:39pm PT

I think blue blocker is near'in the end of a 12er of natty ice

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 4, 2016 - 06:55pm PT

More facts to deny

Marriage and Family:

Zuckerman cites a 1999 Barna study that finds that atheists and agnostics actually have lower divorce rates than religious Americans.

He also cites another study, in Canada, that found conservative Christian women experienced higher rates of domestic violence than non-affiliated women.

Unprotected Sex:

As for Plante's claim that studies have "consistently " found that religious people are less likely to engage in unprotected sex, that claim is directly refuted by a 2009 study that found the reverse - teens who make religion-inspired "virginity pledges" are not only just as likely as their non-pledging peers to engage in premarital sex, but more likely to engage in unprotected sex.

Other Findings of Interest:

Happiness: The most secular nations in the world report the highest levels of happiness among their population.

Altruism: Secular nations such as those in Scandinavia donate the most money and supportive aid, per capita, to poorer nations. Zuckerman also reports that two studies show that, during the Holocaust, "the more secular people were, the more likely they were to rescue and help persecuted Jews."

Outlooks and Values: Zuckerman, citing numerous studies, shows that atheists and agnostics, when compared to religious people, are actually less likely to be nationalistic, racist, anti-Semitic, dogmatic, ethnocentric, and authoritarian. Secularism also correlates to higher education levels. Atheists and other secular people are also much more likely to support women's rights and gender equality, as well as gay and lesbian rights. Religious individuals are more likely to support government use of torture.

Torture!!!
wow, religious folks are more likely to support the Gov. use of Torturing our Political and Religious enemies!!!

Klimmer and Trump are all gung ho on torture, waterboarding is not even bad enough for these enemies that need to Suffer from our state sanctioned torture

I'm sorry, but we should never support torture, not in any circumstance,
isn't crucification one of the worst types of Torture?

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Apr 4, 2016 - 06:56pm PT

lolz Locker!

EdwardT

Trad climber

Retired

Apr 4, 2016 - 07:23pm PT

What do all of you anti-Christian posters think of Jimmy Carter's faith in Christ? How about President Obama's?

Are these men superstitious morons? Maybe just lying hypocrites?

Or do they get a pass for being on the right team?

What about 80% of the Democrats in Congress professing a faith in Christ?

Do they all get as pass, too?

Do political leanings separate the "good Christians" from the "bad Christians"?

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 4, 2016 - 07:38pm PT

No one said there was anything wrong about being a Christian

as long as you don't deny basic facts that Christian fundamentalists will deny

Some Christians have been able to balance reality with faith.
Not sure what kind of religious test we can use to weed out the chaffe

Maybe Trump, who has done tremendous work when it comes to devising some of these religious tests

what should they test for
denial of God?
denial of mindless evolution?
boy it gets tricky fast, sure hope they don't test me.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Apr 4, 2016 - 07:39pm PT

Don't use politicans as an example, you must be aware that a politician who is truthful and says that he/she is a non-believer is unelectable. So it follows that the non-believers who are elected were less than truthful.....think Thomas Jefferson.

anita514

Gym climber

Great White North

Apr 4, 2016 - 07:52pm PT

Lurkingtard

climber

Apr 4, 2016 - 07:57pm PT

Think Bill Clinton. He and Tom have a few things in common.

On the Jimmy Carter note. Great American but I was more of a Billy (beer) fan.

Edit: +1 for grumpy cat

Fossil climber

Trad climber

Atlin, B. C.

Apr 4, 2016 - 09:04pm PT

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Apr 4, 2016 - 09:15pm PT

Jesus loves everyone, but white Americans more than others?

is Trump the second coming of Christ?

Most Republicans sure think so!

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2016 - 09:55pm PT

I'll try to sift through the other conversations and just answer questions or comments about my personal belief in Jesus. By all means, keep it going, it's just simpler for me to respond to questions instead of getting into debates.

I think that's a reasonable assessment. I do have a question if you don't mind a break in the format because I'm curious. What does "good" (or right, or anything like that) mean in the absence of any higher power? Just assume that my auto-response to you answer will be "why is that good?" Ex: I think anything that doesn't hurt people is good. My reply: Why is that good?

I'm not trying to diminish your view as I'm sure it's valid, I just want to understand what "good" means to people who believe only the material world exists and it's all atoms and electricity.

Feel free to ignore.

Did you know Jerry Lee Lewis and Jimmy Swaggert are cousins?

I did not.

I do believe that a HUMAN BEING named Jesus may well have lived and preached about "GOD" and such...

I don't

there is no record, none, in the Roman archives of a man names Jesus being crucified

I do not believe that is an accurate statement (referring to the multiple posts about there not being any archaeological evidence for Jesus or anything in the bible). There is plenty of archaeological evidence for many of the people and places. But I do agree that there isn't any archaeological evidence for the miracles or conversations, that I know of (again, this is under the assumption that witnesses writing down their observations does not count as archaeological evidence). Then again, I am not holding my breath that we will find some water halfway turned into wine or something, nor can I think of any of Jesus' miracles that would leave evidence.

The church I grew up in believed they could change the weather, just for them, by praying. Do you have this level of faith?

I believe that with faith, anything is possible (Matthew 17:20). But I also believe that we are to pray first for the will of God (Matthew 6:9-13), and that may not be the same as what we want (Matthew 26:39).

A couple of stories that I'm sure can be easily dismissed:
1) A missionary from Ecuador I heard used to go from the village to the airport, downstream, in a canoe with a gas motor to pick up people and supplies. It took about 1 gallon to get to the airport and 2 to get back upstream to the village. On one occasion she had two villagers with her but they accidentally only brought two gallons for the whole trip. On the way back upstream the engine ran out of gas and died. She became angry, stressed, and didn't know what to do to get back home before nightfall. The two guys with her suggested that the Jesus she talked about could help if they asked. She thought it was hopeless but they prayed and pulled the cord. The engine started and they made it home.

2) In high school my car could go approximately 320 miles on a tank of gas if I could average between 55 and 60mph (money was scarce so I knew exactly how much I needed to get around). One morning, after becoming sick and throwing up at a friends house in addition to being really pissed about other stuff, I was on my way home and my car died. When I coasted to a stop I was at 330 miles, the needle was pinned on E, and it wouldn't start. I just cried and sat there for a while when I prayed that Jesus would deal with it. Then I remembered the story I heard from the missionary in Ecuador, prayed, and started my car. I watched the needle rise to almost 1/4 tank, drove home and then drove to school the next day without getting gas. I made it 390 miles and had run my car out of gas intentionally about 4 times before that, never getting past 330.

Take it or leave it, it's just one of my experiences with 1st peter 5:6-7

Millions died for a LIE and millions will die in the future "for a lie"

Take religion out, and far fewer will die for a lie

I believe that if everyone did their best to follow Jesus this would not be the case.

No Resurrection, No -what was it again?
"it would be pointless"

I agree with Pete in that if there was no resurrection then Jesus would be a guy with some good ideas and a lot of misled followers who died for something that they lied about. Quite a strange conspiracy and I don't know what their objective would have been.

Critical thought experiment!!!
What if there was no life after death?
What if it was proven that once you die, that's it, the soul does not live on.
How would this influence your religious beliefs?

Yes, I would not believe what the Bible teaches.

...you christians should cede the floor to the OP. Trust me brothers, he handles the pulpit way way WAY better than you.

Really? Seems like he begs off on answering any real questions, albeit in a kinda charming humble aw-shucks love-me sorta way. But whatever.

Thanks and awwwwwwww, shucks. I like to hear other people's beliefs. It interests me and helps me evaluate my own. That includes any and all beliefs.

I think that's a good analogy but I would wonder what the purpose of it would be, and if it would actually spread to every continent. I would also wonder how many people would be willing die for a random misleading story.

To your last point, that we are programmed to want to believe, I totally agree (Romans 2:15).

Couldn't find it but that sounds awesome.

the Bible had many, many revisions, but you believe the bible to be the exacts words of the Apostles?

I have researched this and believe that the Bible has been preserved more accurately than pretty much any other ancient text. Watch or read "A Case For Christ" by Lee Stroble for an introduction to the topic.

another pesky 'fact' from 'science'

camels in the bible:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/20/world/meast/do-camel-bones-discredit-the-bible/

I believe they found some old camels in a place that wasn't where the story of Abraham took place. I also agree with the authors that it gives interesting insights into ancient trade. I believe a lot of Egyptian and Mesopotamian evidence would have to be ignored or explained away to conclude that there were not camels around 2000 BC.

I like to look into these archaeological studies that are grabbed up as evidence against the Bible. I have yet to find one that holds water (see Hittites, Belshazzar, and other figures from the Bible that were later discovered). If I want to have an opinion about anything I do my best to look at every side, though I accept that it's pretty hard for anyone to really be objective.

"well, the original words are in greek right? That's why it's severely important to bring all definitions from the languages. And morely important to bring in everything the entire bible say's pertaining that certain verse, or word!"

you mean like the word homosexual is mentioned twice, but love countless times, yet the Church consistently fights against the right of gays?

but, sure everyone is hypocrite like Pete said, so is this the excuse for denying the rights to a group the church does't understand?

sounds like the mixing of church and state to me

and nothing to do what what Christ said.

I think that's a fair assessment of your discussion.

Limpingcrab,

If a baby dies before being baptized, does it's soul still reside for eternity in God's waiting room called Limbo ? (Limbo = in Latin, Limbus. Limbus is a border or edge. In context, Limbo is the border edge of Hell)

If the once alive and then dead baby's soul residing in Limbo was to be made available to a material human body at conception, wouldn't this open up the slippery slope of reincarnation to Christians ?

First, I believe that we are born with sin and that nobody is truly innocent in the biblical sense (Psalm 51:5), and that nobody can get to be with God without Jesus (John 14:6).

That being said, I'll give my opinion based on what I have learned from the bible, but this is debated by some people and not specifically stated in the Bible so I'm not adamant or dogmatic about it. By Old Testament custom, children were not accountable to follow the law of Moses until they were adults (13 years). The bible seems to imply that children cannot make decisions about good or evil until they are old enough to develop that train of thought (Isaiah 7:15). But the strongest evidence is from 2nd Samuel 12:21-23, when David mourns for his child until it dies. At that time he said he cannot bring it back, but he will go to it. I believe this implies that young children, or anyone incapable of knowing Jesus, are covered by His sacrifice for the sins of the world (1st John 2:2). I also believe that God loves our children even more than we do, and this inference would fit perfectly with the teachings in the Bible.

As to reincarnation, I don't know of anywhere in the Bible that would lend itself to that belief so I do not ascribe to it (Hebrew 9:27 and a bunch of others).

I'm sorry, but we should never support torture, not in any circumstance,
isn't crucification one of the worst types of Torture?

I think it probably is. Or maybe being forced to boulder forever within sight of giant granite towers :)

Jesus loves everyone, but white Americans more than others?

is Trump the second coming of Christ?

Most Republicans sure think so!

I can't find that in the Bible, so I don't think so. Wait, did he come down on a cloud!? (Mark 13:26)

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Apr 4, 2016 - 10:18pm PT

^^^Amen

before you posted i was sobbing over the prior posts on this page.(

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Apr 5, 2016 - 05:04am PT

good to know that:

Jesus can fill a gastank.

churches, even modern ones, still hate buttsex, but Christ is about love, but we will never be Christ, so it's cool for the church to keep legislating 'morality'

Camels are magic, and the bible is a the direct Word of God filtered through countless revisions, I'm considering worshiping camels.

what about Paul? funny how his doctrine is a lot more like modern Christianity than Christ himself

http://doctrine.org/jesus-vs-paul/

wait, wait, lemme guess... FAITH that Christianity is based on Christ, not Paul!, even though the Bible itself and historical records tell a much different story.

[url="http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauline_Christianity"]http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauline_Christianity[/url]

before you posted i was sobbing over the prior posts on this page.(

Paul was thrown to the lions, but a ST makes you sadface? buck up Christian Soldier, the end times are a comin!

have you thought about pet care post-rapture?

http://www.aftertherapturepetcare.com/

never too early to start planning! The fire and brimstone are coming for the gays, pot smokers, liberal democrats, Jews and dry toolers.

make sure Fluffy doesn't suffer!

Contractor

Boulder climber

Apr 5, 2016 - 06:32am PT

There it is, we've come through the nebulous to the nucleus.

My Dad, who was a brilliant man, was delivered from alcoholism through what he described as a higher power. He literally woke up one morning, from the abyss, with the adsolution he would never drink again. He didn't. He lived the last 35 years of his life as a sober and spiritual person.

We debated the question Limpcrab has posed for hours- years! Free of context, free of tradition, were we born with the innate ability to be good?

I chose my words carefully- Humanism (altruism and empathy), spirituality, love and forgiveness is my condensed version of good and I work every day to live by these simple tenants. They were learned over time by the pain I've caused others and the pain others have brought upon me. I honstly cannot equate this in any way to religion.

PS- I never questioned my Dad's experience and never will.

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Apr 5, 2016 - 07:35am PT

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Apr 5, 2016 - 07:43am PT

Need to post this again....time to stop proselytizing. We're all adults here who long ago made our personal decisions regarding religion.

John M

climber

Apr 5, 2016 - 07:58am PT

I chose my words carefully- Humanism (altruism and empathy), spirituality, love and forgiveness is my condensed version of good and I work every day to live by these simple tenants. They were learned over time by the pain I've caused others and the pain others have brought upon me. I honstly cannot equate this in any way to religion.

Thats because no religion created that. God created altruism and empathy. Religion is not God. Religion is mans understanding of God. Since we are created to be altruistic and have empathy, then what you have discovered is simply what you were meant to be, though you have free choice to not be that. And this happens whether you were aware of how and why you were created or not. Because God's laws are written in your heart. It is only when we turn from God's ways that we become our not self and do harm.

First, I believe that we are born with sin

No sir, we were not originally born with sin. We were originally born into the what Genesis calls the garden of eden. We were not born with sin. We chose sin. Through reincarnation, we were then born with sin. And yes, I do understand that it would be difficult to find that in the bible. Perhaps impossible. Will you accept that it is possible to learn the more that Jesus said he had to tell us? Because the Holy spirit can guide us to the Truth?

John 16:12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth".

It says all the Truth. not some of the truth. Jesus himself said that there was more to tell us. When will you accept that? And when will you accept that the Holy Spirit can guide us to the rest of that Truth as Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would.

I tell you now.. reincarnation is real.

If Saint John, who put on the full mind of Christ and thus became the Christ came down from the heavens and told you that reincarnation was real, would you turn your back because its not in the bible? The only absolute Word of God is that which is written in your heart and in the testimony of Creation.

And no, I am not Saint John :-)

rbord

Boulder climber

atlanta

Apr 5, 2016 - 08:05am PT

Limpingcrab, you believe that you personally have experienced objective physical material miracles such as Jesus refilling your gas tank (and that sharing that might sway someone else's belief?) How often does that kind of thing happen? Why is that kind of thing always anecdotal information, and never objectively physically materially documented, the way science does it? Is there a conspiracy to hide that kind of information? Or do the Christian leprechauns purposefully sneak around and cover their tracks, the same way that mine do?

With respect to what is good, what is good is what is good. We don't say what's good - we just form beliefs about it. Why do we form beliefs? The same reason we do everything else - because it's advantageous. Advantageous how to who what is the goal and purpose of evolution? Which is to say, we don't really know - we don't have all the answers. But we really need to know, so we tell ourselves that we do.

Can we just wonder why people would die for a good story, and say we have beliefs about it but we don't know for sure? A little bit. But a big bit we need to fill in the answer with the easiest belief, according to what is easiest for each of us.

Lemmings are like that too, but they're not special like us. Like me, they don't get their gas tanks specially filled because of the good story that they happen to believe.

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 5, 2016 - 09:08am PT

Historicity and origin of the Resurrection of Jesus

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The historicity and origin of the Resurrection of Jesus has been the subject of historical research and debate, as well as a topic of discussion among theologians. The accounts of the Gospels, including the empty tomb and the appearances of the risen Jesus to his followers, have been interpreted and analyzed in diverse ways, and have been seen variously as historical accounts of a literal event, as accurate accounts of visionary experiences, as non-literal eschatological parables, and as fabrications of early Christian writers, among various other interpretations. It has been suggested, that the empty tomb was the result of Jesus' body having been stolen, or, as was common with Roman crucifixions, that Jesus was never entombed.

please read more on this subject
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_and_origin_of_the_Resurrection_of_Jesus

The story of the resurrection is mythology, there will never be enough evidence to prove that Jesus came back from the dead, it was impossible back then, just like it's impossible now, but we know better now,
I'm sure some guy in India says he has come back from death, do you believe him?

so he either didn't come back from the dead, or wasn't dead, or it was a LIE, fiction, deceit, fantasy, delusion.

Take your pick

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Ontario, Canada, eh?

Apr 5, 2016 - 09:19am PT

Good ol' Wikipedia.... It does actually present a number alternative explanations. Perhaps Jesus was a lunatic? Perhaps Jesus was a liar? There are other possibilities, all of which are viable, and all of which I have examined.

Consider this: were all the guys who actually SAW him come back lying? Hundreds of them?

And more significantly, were those guys who were Jesus' followers and who later got KILLED for not renouncing their faith after having seen him come back, were they just crazy?

Would YOU die for something you didn't believe in?

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Apr 5, 2016 - 09:33am PT

rbord

Boulder climber

atlanta

Apr 5, 2016 - 09:34am PT

No doubt Christians believe the good story. I don't think the doubt is whether Christians believe the good easy believing story - that Jesus came along and filled up my gas tank, or that he personally told me that he doesn't want an adoptee relationship with me, or that just believe that good story humans wrote down because it's all true I swear! I think what non-believers doubt is that the good story is true.

When I look up in the sky at night, I see stars. Right there - there's a star - it's there, I can see it! But I'm not seeing a star - I'm seeing the light given off by a star that existed however many years ago that star is in light-years away. Sometimes I perceive things, sometimes I believe things, that just aren't true, for other reasons that we don't understand.

Lemmings, they just run right over the edge of the cliff, because that's what their brain tells them to do. What do our brains tell us to do? Praise Jesus!

cintune

climber

Colorado School of Mimes

Apr 5, 2016 - 09:52am PT

Lemmings don't really do that though.....

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2016 - 10:57am PT

what about Paul? funny how his doctrine is a lot more like modern Christianity than Christ himself

http://doctrine.org/jesus-vs-paul/

wait, wait, lemme guess... FAITH that Christianity is based on Christ, not Paul!, even though the Bible itself and historical records tell a much different story.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauline_Christianity" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauline_Christianity

This is a longstanding debate among Christians. Some want to start with the Jewish Kingdom perspective, as usually mentioned by Jesus, and some want to start with justification through Christ, as Paul usually mentions. I believe they are easily reconciled when it's accepted that they are both preaching the Gospel and the Gospel is the story of Jesus. He the completion of the Jewish Kingdom of the Old testament and he is also the savior for everyone who accepts him as Lord and the final sacrifice. Both Paul and Jesus taught this and neither contradict each other when the story of the Gospel, redemption, and life is the story of Jesus and his love (1st Corinthians 15:1-11 and Matthew, Mark, Luke and John).

have you thought about pet care post-rapture?

http://www.aftertherapturepetcare.com/

Hahahahaha! No, I hadn't. I'm really bad at taking care of pets so they usually don't last long anyway.

Will you accept that it is possible to learn the more that Jesus said he had to tell us? Because the Holy spirit can guide us to the Truth?

John 16:12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth".

It says all the Truth. not some of the truth. Jesus himself said that there was more to tell us. When will you accept that? And when will you accept that the Holy Spirit can guide us to the rest of that Truth as Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would.

I tell you now.. reincarnation is real.

If Saint John, who put on the full mind of Christ and thus became the Christ came down from the heavens and told you that reincarnation was real, would you turn your back because its not in the bible? The only absolute Word of God is that which is written in your heart and in the testimony of Creation.

And no, I am not Saint John :-)

I believe that Jesus can and does speak to people who seek him, and this is usually through the scriptures (Hebrews 1:1-4). I do not believe he will contradict himself though (2nd Timothy 3:16). If I did I would have to start looking into Mormonism and Islam.

First, I am trying to only answer questions about my beliefs, as a Christian. That story was a response to a question about whether I believe Jesus can and does do miracles. I can't think of anyone I've shared that with and was kind of reluctant to bring it up, but I thought it would help clarify my answer. I didn't start this thread to sway people, only to share what I believe if people are wondering about the motives and beliefs of one Christian who can only speak for himself. Sorry if it doesn't come across that way.

To the second part, maybe it is similar to why Jesus used parables and how earthly wisdom doesn't understand him (Matthew 13:12-14, 1st Corinthians 1:21), that those who reject him don't see or understand and it all seems foolish. But really, I don't know.

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 5, 2016 - 11:01am PT

Trump
saw 1000s of Muslims dancing in the streets after 911

and that was only 15 years ago

You can't believe everything that people say or Write, it's as simple as that.
To believe anything in the bible is a fools game, they have been playing it for 1000s of years, and millions have fallen for it, just like they fall for some other religion in other countries, it's all about your tribal god.

You want the truth, become a hardcore skeptic and the truth will bite you in the ass.

rbord

Boulder climber

atlanta

Apr 5, 2016 - 11:46am PT

Nicely said - very impressive - thanks!

For me, sharing how I believe stuff, that seems to be a little window into our belief processes, and definitely refreshingly honest. So from my perspective, we have these strongly held beliefs about truth and reality, and they're created through these belief processes that also have us believing that maybe Jesus filled our gas tank, but we just don't have any physical proof of his physical miracles, even though they occur at the rate of maybe one per Christian.

And I try not to mean that about just you or just Christian beliefs, I hope to mean it about all of us. It's humbling. But it's just so hard to notice about ourselves. Noticing it about ourselves is not a preferred part (I would say evolved psychological tendency :-) of our belief processes, the way that say learning languages is, or being swayed by good stories is.

StahlBro

Trad climber

San Diego, CA

Apr 5, 2016 - 12:04pm PT

Do you believe that someone who leads a good and virtuous life, but never accepts Jesus as his "savior", is diminished in the eyes of God?

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Apr 5, 2016 - 12:04pm PT

Ask a Christian, a Werner, a Sarah or a Hannah, but choose someone who has the ability to listen and inquire, and shy away from all ideologies.

When someone writes: "Ask a Christian" and starts from a spesific religious point of view, the first thing that shines through is the ideology...

ionlyski

Trad climber

Kalispell, Montana

Apr 5, 2016 - 12:24pm PT

I believe a Christian is someone who has faith in Jesus in their heart

Since we know quite certainly that hearts pump blood and no surgeon yet has found Jesus to be living in it, how come Christianity in the 21st century continues to insist on so many euphemisms? It would help therefore if we started off discussions using the same language.

Conversely then, why not explain that my "thoughts" that momentarily take place in my brain, concerning my beliefs in god's son, determine my eternal salvation or damnation?

Arne

Norton

Social climber

Apr 5, 2016 - 12:30pm PT

The Warbler asks:

How can you rationalize the genocide perpetuated by your brethren over the millennia in the name of Jesus and your God?

let me guess the proper Christian answer ...

God gifted humans Free Will ....or .....God works in ways too mysterious for simple humans to understand

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 5, 2016 - 12:36pm PT

New Testament historian Bart D. Ehrman recognizes that "Some scholars have argued that it's more plausible that in fact Jesus was placed in a common burial plot, which sometimes happened, or was, as many other crucified people, simply left to be eaten by scavenging animals." He further elaborates by saying: "[T]he accounts are fairly unanimous in saying (the earliest accounts we have are unanimous in saying) that Jesus was in fact buried by this fellow, Joseph of Arimathea, and so it's relatively reliable that that's what happened."[40]

Most likely, his dead body was scavenged by animals.

Do Christians care what Christian Scholars reveal in their scientific research?

Phantom X

Trad climber

Honeycomb Hideout

Apr 5, 2016 - 12:48pm PT

Didn't Jackson Brown cruise the entire Rt.66 with his gas tank completely empty or did that turn out to be hoax?

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Apr 5, 2016 - 01:15pm PT

Do you believe that someone who leads a good and virtuous life, but never accepts Jesus as his "savior", is diminished in the eyes of God?

straight to HELL!

Mother Teresa was a Catholic, so she is burning there now as we speak.

JEleazarian

Trad climber

Fresno CA

Apr 5, 2016 - 01:27pm PT

To believe anything in the bible is a fools game, they have been playing it for 1000s of years, and millions have fallen for it, just like they fall for some other religion in other countries, it's all about your tribal god.

You want the truth, become a hardcore skeptic and the truth will bite you in the ass.

With all due respect, I think you're being a bit too kind to skepticism, and a bit presumptious with what it entails. Disbelieving all the Bible says is equally a fool's errand. What skpeticism tells us is what we don't know. If you want to discover Jesus solely using the scientific method, I think you'll discover there's lots you don't know. As just one example, you speculated that Jesus was buried in a common burial plot, but in fact, you don't know, and neither do I.

I do, however, know that those who wrote about Him included those who allege to have seen the burial, and the burial plot. I also know that, again, those who claim to have seen Jesus after the crucifixion allege that Christianity grew enormously on Pentecost, only 40 days later. If Jesus were such an enemy, and Christianity was growing so quickly, and the place of His burial was a common grave, wouldn't the authorities have pointed this out? Shouldn't a skeptic be, well, skeptical about that hypothesis?

That's getting a bit outside the topic Limbing Crab offered, which is to answer questions about his belief, so I'll leave it at this: skepticism goes in all directions. If I applied your standard of skepticism to the rest of classical history, there is very little I would or could believe. Disbelieving witnesses isn't, ipso facto, logical or an appropriate exercise of skepticism.

Warbler asks a good question, to which I don't have all the answers, but I would respond as follows:

1. I'm unaware of any intentional genocide on the part of Christians. Their intent was conversion, not killing. Islam was a religion spread through conquest. Christianity one that more effectively spread through martyrdom.

2. I cannot deny that some acting in Christ's name have used violence to advance what they purport to be His aims. There is no Biblical justification for doing so. The only Biblical command involved the people under the Ban in the Old Testament, who died out long ago. If you want to discuss that, we can do so, but be prepared to discuss the practices of the people under the Ban, the consequences of those practices, and the 350 years God gave them to repent.

3. All of the people killed by Christians purporting to act in the name of Christ in all history are far less than the number of Christians killed for their faith in the 20th century alone.

4. Christians are forgiven, but they still sin. See, e.g., 1 John 1:8-10. No one said Christians on earth are perfect, but then again, no one is perfect, which is why they're incompatible with a holy God without His intervention.

5. Again, with all due respect, not all cultures or religions are morally equivalent. The Baal and Molech worshippers in the Old Testament sacrificed humans, as did the Aztecs. Should Christians leave intact cultures that retain human sacrifice, if they had the ability to stop it? As for other religions, the one thing that logic does tell us is that if Christianity is correct, and no one comes to the Father except through the Son, then no other religion can be correct.

This last point is worth some emphasis. The one thing that external evidence strongly supports is that the text of the Bible authentically reflects what its authors wrote. The Gospel of John has portions of manuscripts that go back to at least A.D. 120 (sorry not to use the politically correct C.E. 120, but I can't resist a bit of sinful needling). The Dead Sea Scrolls go back even earlier. No other writings of antiquity have manuscripts that are within centuries of being that old. It would take a great deal more faith to believe that our modern Biblical text inaccurately reflects what was written than it does to believe the truth.

That being the case, we are, at least, in a position to discuss the logical consistency of religions arising subsequent to Christianity that reference Jesus Christ. For example, Islam claims Jesus is a great prophet, but not divine and not the Son of God. The problem is that the texts that are contemporary to Jesus's life say that Jesus claimed to be the Son of God. If so, how can Islam be correct in its characterization of Jesus? Do you really think the Jewish religious leaders arrested Jesus and turned him over to the Romans to crucify because He taught that we should be nice to one another? Isn't it more likely that His claim to divinity, together with His condemnation of their lifeless religion, infuriated them enough to kill him? But I digress.

Kevin, I don't think I can convince you to share my faith using solely logic, because some pretty smart people were unable to convince me, either. That was God's doing, and only after I was in grad school. But I, like Daniel (limpingcrab), am happy to share what I believe, and why, for those who care. I haven't looked at this thread before today, and I have no intentions of spending much time doing so, but if anyone really cares what I believe, send me an email.

Thanks.

John

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Apr 5, 2016 - 01:39pm PT

Let's see....this particular god sends his one and only son born to a human via a virgin birth to one of the possibly 100,000,000 million planets with life of some sort to be crucified in order to atone for the sins of the organisims that he created in his own image.
Now this doesn't work out very well because a goodly number of the humans this god created continue to sin. Well, the obvious solution is to subject these sinners to everlasting hell fire that hurts like (yes, hell) but is not fatal....because if it were it wouldn't be everlasting.
Now Hollywood has some pretty creative and sinister people but none of them could come up with that script.

cintune

climber

Colorado School of Mimes

Apr 5, 2016 - 01:43pm PT

Do you really think the Jewish religious leaders arrested Jesus and turned him over to the Romans to crucify because He taught that we should be nice to one another? Isn't it more likely that His claim to divinity, together with His condemnation of their lifeless religion, infuriated them enough to kill him?

Nope, this is what made him a threat that had to be dealt with:

Of all the arguments for him having been a real person, this one makes the most sense. Follow the money.

Largo

Sport climber

The Big Wide Open Face

Apr 5, 2016 - 05:36pm PT

I've always remained curious about how people approach the whole caboodle per religion, be it Christianity or any other denomination that has a codified doctrine. Not surprisingly, many, both believers and non-believers, seek to approach the doctrine in historical, even "scientific" ways, the fundamentalists declaring, for example, that a man named Jonah actually spent time in a whale's belly, or that Jesus walked on water, with the non-believers demanding "proof" that such nonsense is either true or false. And what's more, that the value and ethos of Christianity boils down to the historic verity of the miraculous. And whether we believe it all, or not.

But the applied approach is something altogether different, whereas the doctrine serves only as an arrow pointing the way to an existential experience of the spiritual, which is not some thing or object or action, real or mythological, which vouchsafes the physical and historical goings on per events in the bible.

When I studied philosophy at a theological seminar, there were always a few people who were, for the lack of a better term, touched by the "holy spirit," and lived with a grace and fearlessness denied to those clinging to doctrine. People who tried to embody the spirit of the Song of Songs, and were transformed in the process. None of them could ever tell you how it all "worked," because it was not a process they could reverse engineer back to an object. All all had the profound sense of encountering some reality greater than themselves, and which had nothing to do with objects.

The entire business about the "Holy Spirit" is a fascinating investigation. I'd be curious to hear personal accounts about this that are not bound by scripture or Jesus-speak.

JL

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Apr 5, 2016 - 05:52pm PT

I've had Holy Spirit experiences, but with DMT and to some degree LSD.

Interestingly, these experiences have made me not an atheist. And i spoke with god(s) that were not unlike the Christian god I grew up fearing. Projection? don't know, bunch of morphing orbs and elves as well.

The church I grew up in was Penticostal, so most spoke in tongues. I tried to feel what they did, but never did.

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 5, 2016 - 08:22pm PT

The Resurrection
http://skepdic.com/resurrection.html
Here's what skeptics have to say on the subject

Please read it carefully

The Resurrection refers to the alleged coming back to life of Jesus of Nazareth (or was it Bethlehem?) after he had been executed by crucifixion about 2,000 years ago. It is the keystone of Christianity.

As a child, I was taught the story that an omnipotent, omniscient, all-good creator kindly sent his son, who was one with the creator and with the holy ghost, to redeem mankind for the original sin committed by Adam and Eve. This god/man was crucified by the Romans in order to save mankind from eternity without the creator. Three days after he was buried, the story goes, Jesus rose from the dead.

As a child, I believed this story and many others like it. All the adults I came in contact with seemed to think it was true and that believing it was essential to my salvation. I didn't really understand what "my salvation" was but even as a child I knew it was better than "the eternal torments of hellfire."

I grew up and studied these and many other philosophical and religious matters in a context where I was not required to believe in order to avoid being ostracized. I eventually even taught courses in world religions, where one should learn that stories of supernatural feats like rising from the dead are rather mundane.1 I now consider these stories to be preposterous propaganda. Gods and holy men who die and rise after being crucified or drowning in a river or whatever are fabrications. That people make up such stories is easy to understand and forgive. That people believe them and take them as literal truths is harder to forgive. That parents indoctrinate their children with such stories and punish their children with threats of damnation and isolation if they question their parents' beliefs is unforgivable.

I wouldn't bother with posting an entry on this subject had I not been challenged to do so by someone who probably thinks of himself as a good Christian on the road to salvation and who thinks of me as being on the road to perdition. (I confess that in my youth I thought of myself as saved and felt pity for those who were not as fortunate as I was, having been born into a Catholic family. Eventually, I met Protestants, Jews, atheists, and other non-Catholics and discovered things were not exactly as I had been taught.)

The Resurrection is just one of thousands of religious myths that deserve to be covered in a comprehensive take-down of religions. Though I am an atheist, I don't consider The Skeptic's Dictionary to be an anti-religious website. As far as I'm concerned, if you and a billion other people want to believe in crucified gods and resurrected deities or prophets, go ahead. There are billions who believe in other gods and other resurrections and equally preposterous stories. Let them. As long as they don't try to force their beliefs on the rest of us or try to harm us or their children, let them believe in peace.

The idea that there were more than 500 witnesses to the Resurrection of Jesus is pure propaganda. Where are the accounts of these witnesses? Where is the historical evidence? How could there be any such evidence except for the claims of people to have seen it happen or heard from another that he or she saw it happen? There are no eyewitness accounts. Had any Roman soldiers or Jewish rabbis seen such an event, you can be assured it would have been noted and caused a great stir. (Read Soren Kierkegaard's Concluding Unscientific Postscript for a Christian's view that faith, not observation or reason, must be the basis for resurrection claims.)

The stories of Jesus as a miracle worker, healer, crucified god, savior of mankind, resurrected being, etc., were all written long after his death and after other stories were quashed by the church at Rome. The main propagandist, Paul of Tarsus, never met Jesus and didn't witness any resurrections, but he did more to spread the Jesus is Christ myth than anyone then or since. The Resurrection is considered the key spiritual feature of the Christian religion, but stories of resurrected gods have a long history. Likewise for stories of miracle workers and magical healers.

Many scholars have noted what is called the "copycat thesis." It seems strangely coincidental that there are a number of key parallel lines in the stories of Horus, Mithra, and Jesus. Each story involves a virgin birth to a savior who was a son of a god, each performed miracles such as healing the sick, and each died and was resurrected.

Mithra's birthday was celebrated on December 25th. "Mithraism was a degenerate form of Zoroastrianism, the national religion of the Persian-Iranian people, this in turn having stemmed from the more primitive Mazdaism..."* Mithraism flourished in the Roman Empire from the 1st through the 4th centuries CE. (Yes, Mithraism was a competitor with Christianity for several centuries.) Zoroastrianism is still practiced by a few adherents and has a strong belief in salvation and immortality.

In his classic work Man and His Gods, Homer Smith writes:

The doctrine of the virgin birth was thoroughly familiar to the pagans. A supernatural origin had been ascribed to Egyptian Pharaohs centuries before, and Attis-Adonis had been born of the virgin Myrrha. In the disguise of a serpent, the god Aesculapius had fathered Aratus of Sicyon, Apollo had fathered Julius Caesar and Augustus, and other gods had fathered Aristomenes, Alexander the Great, Cyrus, the elder Scipio, Mithra, Hermes, Perseus and Buddha. Juno, the wife of Jupiter, was supposed to become a virgin again each year, and as a virgin was said by the Romans to have born Cybele, Demeter, Leo, and Vulcan.*

I'm not going to try to understand what it might mean to "become a virgin again." In any case, Egyptians, of course, believed in life after death, which was one of the key claims of early Christianity. It was also a central feature of Mithraism and the cult of Dionysus.

Why won't believers just admit that they accept Christianity on faith and accept that atheists reject it because it does not resonate with anything resembling the truth? If anyone believes in the resurrection because of alleged eyewitnesses or other historical testimony, they are not using their critical thinking skills (whether these are a gift from some god or a blessing of nature).

To those who say "a billion Christians can't be wrong," I remind them that they think a billion Muslims are wrong and a billion Hindus and Buddhists are wrong. Each of these religions thinks the others are deluded. I think they're all deluded. To paraphrase Stephen F. Roberts: as an atheist I reject one more god than you do; both of us, atheist and theist, believe billions of people are deluded about gods and religion; we just disagree over who is deluded.

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 5, 2016 - 08:35pm PT

Christian ultra-fundamentalism (CUF)
http://skepdic.com/ultrafundamentalism.html

A term used by psychologist and educator Robert J. Marzano (1993/1994) to describe the worldview of certain American Christians. CUF considers the Bible a sacred text and considers stories such as Noah and his ark to be literally true. CUF is well-known in America for its views that homosexuality and abortion, among many other things having to do with sex or reproduction, are sins (forbidden by the god of Abraham [AG]). The CUF folks and their sympathizers have a very well-organized political network, including schools, television networks, and radio stations for getting the message out to the masses and lawmakers. The movement has had some success in affecting legislation that restricts abortions, protects fetuses, and limits scientific research involving stem cells or human embryos. They have also had some success in getting elected to local school boards where they can influence textbooks and curricula (Simonds 1983; Forrest and Gross 2003).

CUF shares in common with ultra-fundamentalist Jews, Muslims, and Hindus the establishment of theocracy as the ultimate goal. One of the key features of Christian ultra-fundamentalism is that all other worldviews are seen as enemies to be extinguished or at least stopped from spreading (Marzano 1993/1994). There is no secular worldview that holds a similar position, with the possible exception of extreme communism. But other ultra-fundamentalist religious movements also seek the annihilation of opposing worldviews. Some of these groups, such as Islamic ultra-fundamentalists, seek to physically extinguish those of other religions or cultures, or even members of their own religion who are deemed not orthodox enough.* With the exception of a few terrorists who have attacked or murdered people for their abortion-related activities, CUF seems to advocate non-violent tactics. However, were a group of CUFs ever to hold political power in America, they undoubtedly would be just as intolerant as Islam has been toward democracy, liberty, human rights, pluralism, and all those values held precious by freedom-loving people.*

The CUF worldview is also characterized by the belief that America was established as a Christian nation (Gabler and Gabler 1985) with a global mission of evangelization (Saperstein 1990) and that liberal intellectuals have misled America into thinking that there should be a separation of Church and State

Flip Flop

climber

Earth Planet, Universe

Apr 5, 2016 - 08:37pm PT

Rationalist.

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 5, 2016 - 08:44pm PT

Happiness: The most secular nations in the world report the highest levels of happiness among their population.

Altruism: Secular nations such as those in Scandinavia donate the most money and supportive aid, per capita, to poorer nations. Zuckerman also reports that two studies show that, during the Holocaust, "the more secular people were, the more likely they were to rescue and help persecuted Jews."

Outlooks and Values: Zuckerman, citing numerous studies, shows that atheists and agnostics, when compared to religious people, are actually less likely to be nationalistic, racist, anti-Semitic, dogmatic, ethnocentric, and authoritarian. Secularism also correlates to higher education levels. Atheists and other secular people are also much more likely to support women's rights and gender equality, as well as gay and lesbian rights. Religious individuals are more likely to support government use of torture.

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2016 - 09:18pm PT

Do you believe that someone who leads a good and virtuous life, but never accepts Jesus as his "savior", is diminished in the eyes of God?

I believe that anyone who rejects the love and forgiveness of Jesus will not spend eternity with God (John 14:6). Where it gets tricky is when people have never been specifically told about Jesus. I covered this in more detail in other posts, but basically I believe that nobody has an excuse and God provides the opportunity to know him to everyone, and the sacrifice of Jesus covers the sins of the whole world (Romans 1:20, 1st John 2:2). I do not believe that simply being not that bad of a person for our short stay on earth is as important as many people do because I have an eternal perspective and I believe our purpose is to have a relationship with God, not simply to do more good than bad, though that should be the result of knowing Jesus (James 4:13-16).

Here's my question to a Christian:

How can you rationalize the genocide perpetuated by your brethren over the millennia in the name of Jesus and your God? How do you justify the destruction of entire native cultures across the Pacific Ocean, South America, Central America and North America in the name of Jesus and your God? How do you justify the continuing vilification of other religions which are no more hypocritical and murderous than yours?

Why, after all that, do you wholeheartedly respect the bible and the preachers who use it, and yourselves, as a tool to perpetuate their mission?

I'll try those one at a time.
-I do not attempt to justify or rationalize the terrible things that some people do. I hope and pray that people will follow the teachings of Jesus and have compassion and love for everyone (Matthew 5:44). It's unfortunate that so many people do not.
-Again, I do not try to justify the destruction of people or cultures (with the caveat that JEleazarian mentioned that when a culture does terrible things, it doesn't need to be preserved). I do believe that our purpose here on earth is to know and love Jesus and that if anyone believes that then they should share it with people if they care about them (Matthew 28:16-20).
-I do not try to justify the vilification of anyone, but do try to promote the love and forgiveness of Jesus (Matthew 5:44).
-I do wholeheartedly respect the Bible, but not necessarily the people who use is as a tool for anything other than the message of God and his plan for us.

"I believe a Christian is someone who has faith in Jesus in their heart"

Since we know quite certainly that hearts pump blood and no surgeon yet has found Jesus to be living in it, how come Christianity in the 21st century continues to insist on so many euphemisms? It would help therefore if we started off discussions using the same language.

Conversely then, why not explain that my "thoughts" that momentarily take place in my brain, concerning my beliefs in god's son, determine my eternal salvation or damnation?

I never thought about that, but I see your point. I believe that humans have a soul/spirit, and that is the part of us that is eternal. I think that's what is often referred to as our "heart" (Psalms 34:18).

Because I believe that our relationship and faith in Jesus is what determines the fate of our souls, I guess the mind and spirit are sort of inseparable. Basically, if you believe the Gospel and trust the Lord, I believe that your spirit is sealed (Ephesians 1:13 says pretty much exactly that). I suppose I don't know how you can have a relationship without your mind.

Do Christians care what Christian Scholars reveal in their scientific research?

Speaking only for myself, yes. But I also spend a LOT of time reading about the research, both for and against my preconceived notions and beliefs. It's easy to spend hours and hours reading the back and forth on many things, and I try to do that when making decisions.

Didn't Jackson Brown cruise the entire Rt.66 with his gas tank completely empty or did that turn out to be hoax?

No idea what you're talking about, but I wish I could do that. It'd save a lot of money!

100,000,000 million planets with life of some sort

Hey, you form beliefs based on faith too! :)

When I studied philosophy at a theological seminar, there were always a few people who were, for the lack of a better term, touched by the "holy spirit," and lived with a grace and fearlessness denied to those clinging to doctrine. People who tried to embody the spirit of the Song of Songs, and were transformed in the process. None of them could ever tell you how it all "worked," because it was not a process they could reverse engineer back to an object. All all had the profound sense of encountering some reality greater than themselves, and which had nothing to do with objects.

The entire business about the "Holy Spirit" is a fascinating investigation. I'd be curious to hear personal accounts about this that are not bound by scripture or Jesus-speak.

Interesting post, John. No doubt that experiencing the Holy Spirit is part of my faith. It's only my tendency to research everything that leads me to analyze my beliefs and have reasons for them. As to personal accounts of being touched by the Holy Spirit, I know what this is like but don't think I can do it any justice with an explanation. It has brought tears, laughter, guidance, joy and everything in between when I am close to Jesus, with the Holy Spirit, where I believe I belong. Trying to describe it to someone who hasn't shared the experience would be like trying to describe an amazing climb to someone who has never seen a mountain, or a steak dinner to someone living in hunger, or holding your child while he/she sleeps to someone without children. Maybe those are poor analogies, but either way, the life changing experience and emotion is easily dismissed by people who have not lived it.

The people who life in this space, as opposed to the "religious" people endlessly debating, are an inspiration and you know it when you meet them, like you say.

Craig Fry

If you have a question I'd be happy to answer, Craig. I am familiar with the fact that people disagree and some people use Christianity for political purposes.

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 5, 2016 - 09:27pm PT

The question is:
Why believe the resurrection story when it can not be possibly true.
Christian scholars do not agree that it ever took place, so isn't the most plausible explanation true, that jesus did not come back alive, and to say he did is just an exercise in perpetuating an ancient pagan myth that was used to draw in believers

What evidence do we have of an afterlife?

How does it all work up there?
Scientifically speaking, keeping track of all the dead people in the after life would be like impossible times infinity.

It seems to be completely made up by man.
The ultimate prize, an rewarding afterlife.

Why should I buy it?

Largo

Sport climber

The Big Wide Open Face

Apr 5, 2016 - 09:29pm PT

My sense of this is that people don't want to talk about religion as an existential phenomenon - meaning how religion is carried internally - but just want to bicker about doctrine, if it's "true" or not. True = doctrine. Lord...

Imagine Christianity with NO doctrine and no beliefs, just a practice, a style of living, and what you get out of it is proof enough.

JL

WBraun

climber

Apr 5, 2016 - 09:36pm PT

Largo just described real Christianity in a nutshell ......

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Ontario, Canada, eh?

Apr 5, 2016 - 10:06pm PT

I was going to try to say something about how the Holy Spirit has touched me, and what he has done for me, but I really had no idea what to say or how to begin, except "I don't get it". But in spite of not getting it, I can't deny my own experiences, which I couldn't begin to explain anyway.

I cannot fathom many of the mysteries of God - his Holy Spirit being one of the biggies - so sometimes I just kind of sit in awe and think, wow, God's so The Sh|t. Kind of like I sometimes stare at El Cap and think the same thing. God made one fine hunk of stone there, him and the glaciers.

And I'm not trying to be patronizing or dismissive regarding the Holy Spirit, I just don't know how to explain. And if I tried, you might think I'm batshit crazy anyway.

So I will give a +1 to what Daniel writes above regarding HS.

Lorenzo

Trad climber

Portland Oregon

Apr 5, 2016 - 10:13pm PT

Imagine Christianity with NO doctrine and no beliefs, just a practice, a style of living, and what you get out of it is proof enough.

One step from being a Quaker...

Although a general acceptance of the possibility of a supreme being is encouraged.

Curt

climber

Gold Canyon, AZ

Apr 5, 2016 - 11:24pm PT

Imagine Christianity with NO doctrine and no beliefs, just a practice, a style of living, and what you get out of it is proof enough.

This is pretty much the way I view it. I consider myself agnostic, but I also believe that if people merely followed the actual historically verifiable teachings of Jesus, minus the miracles, embellishments, etc., the world would be a better place.

Curt

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2016 - 11:36pm PT

The question is:
Why believe the resurrection story when it can not be possibly true.

I guess we're starting with different assumptions so I don't know what I can say.

Christian scholars do not agree that it ever took place, so isn't the most plausible explanation true, that jesus did not come back alive, and to say he did is just an exercise in perpetuating an ancient pagan myth that was used to draw in believers

I don't believe that a few dissenters would qualify this statement as accurate.

What evidence do we have of an afterlife?

Aside from what I've learned from the Bible, none.

How does it all work up there?

I can't even imagine (1st Corinthians 2:9)

It seems to be completely made up by man.
The ultimate prize, an rewarding afterlife.

Why should I buy it?

Because Jesus loves. I don't think I can convince anyone with arguments or logic (1st Corinthians 1:21).

I would love to talk about any of it, but I am just answering questions. I hope in doing so I'm not diluting the point that what you get out of it is indeed proof enough (John 13:35). I like the way you think, although I personally think that beliefs are still part of the process (John 6:47).

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Apr 6, 2016 - 12:02am PT

Here's the very short version of a very long, multi-year story. I believe abiogenesis requires more faith than faith in God.

Hmmm. Life is here so I don't find abiogenesis terribly far-fetched even if we don't understand it. God vs. zeus vs. the tooth fairy vs. Santa Claus on the other hand I'm pretty clear on.

Not to mention how many biochemical mechanisms are lacking from macroevolution theory.

Which would those be?

I believe that anyone who rejects the love and forgiveness of Jesus will not spend eternity with God (John 14:6).

If there was ever something I'm counting on, it's this...

Flip Flop

climber

Earth Planet, Universe

Apr 6, 2016 - 03:16am PT

Blather

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Apr 6, 2016 - 03:34am PT

some people use Christianity for political purpose

some aka most rulers in the middle ages?

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Apr 6, 2016 - 06:48am PT

It's just silly to expect secular or non believers to be interested in how faith can be carried internally with no explanation of doctrine, the Bible, or historical evidence.
The Bible we can see and read, the evidence of wrongs perpetrated on others in the name of God we can see, the wearing of big hats and condemning others we can see. Religious people damn well better be prepared to answer some questions about that stuff or they're not getting anywhere with the rest of us.

Edit:
Limpingcrab, that's not directed at you. In other words, Largo, I don't think you're a Christian in the way Christians think of Christians at all. I don't believe you condemn gays, or have really strong opinions about Israel being Gods chosen people, or the anti-christ etc. Do you even believe in heaven and hell, sitting near gods right hand or burning eternally in lakes of fire?
So no Werner, he did not just explain Christianity in a nutshell.

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 6, 2016 - 07:19am PT

Why not just admit that it all happens inside your own mind.

And God doesn't have anything to do with it.

You, yourself are the spiritual entity that when tapped is the source of love, inspiration and what not.

It doesn't come from the outside, never has.
and animals have these gifts as well, humans evolved from animals
Humans are not alone as the chosen ones that are special.

But we are at the top of the known universe when it comes to the highest mind, there is nothing higher, no Gods, no spirit floating about, no Satan keeping you down.

Only you can save yourself,
many people have saved themselves, but were delusional of where the power came from, they needed to believe it came from the outside, yet it was them alone, with just the power of belief that made it happen.

Unfortunately, once the body dies, the mind dies with it.
There is no spirit without the flesh that supports it.

This is true atheism,
agnosticism is just a cop out in my mind, maybe this maybe that, can't be sure if there is something controlling the universe or not??

No, there is nothing out there, it's all about nothingness when you look outside yourself, Largo will agree here.

Flip Flop

climber

Earth Planet, Universe

Apr 6, 2016 - 08:09am PT

When you're dead, you don't even know that you're dead. There is just pain for others.
Same thing when you are stupid.

WBraun

climber

Apr 6, 2016 - 08:12am PT

You don't even know what dead is nor what life is.

Stooopist bullsh!t ever is modern science idiots saying life comes for non life matter.

Life comes from life and life is eternal ......

Largo

Sport climber

The Big Wide Open Face

Apr 6, 2016 - 08:49am PT

It's just silly to expect secular or non believers to be interested in how faith can be carried internally with no explanation of doctrine, the Bible, or historical evidence.
----

I wasn't directing my inquiry to non-believers, but what makes it "silly" to you? And so far as an "explanation, do you mean an interpretation in terms of historic accuracy of miracles, or a deeper understanding of the existential truths experienced from practice? If you took the heart and soul of the Pauline letters, and used that as a guide, minus any explanation about what they "mean," and ignoring all "evidence," rather you simply tried to live it, what do suppose would happen.

Any time I see the focus on doctrine over existential truth, I wonder what the person is hoping to reap from their religion - a spiritual existence, or to be right about a bunch of equivocal history.

What might happen if just for one day beliefs and doctrine were set aside and you just sat in the heart of it?

JL

Gary

Social climber

Where in the hell is Major Kong?

Apr 6, 2016 - 08:53am PT

Where it gets tricky is when people have never been specifically told about Jesus.

Well, why doesn't your god just tell them? Why does he feel the need to f*#k with people?

This is why I left the Methodists, when the pastor told me people like the Tassaday who'd never had any contact with the outside world were going to hell.

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 6, 2016 - 08:58am PT

JE was correct, I used the wrong words to express the bible

I should have used these words
"it's a fool's game to believe that the bible is the word of god"

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Apr 6, 2016 - 10:06am PT

Craig you seem completely lacking in spiritual apprehension.......belief in god without proof.....then again, spiritual apprehension is a gift of god. Looks like you and me are in the same boat....not on god's gift list.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Apr 6, 2016 - 11:17am PT

Imagine Christianity with NO doctrine and no beliefs, just a practice, a style of living, and what you get out of it is proof enough.

I don't buy it!

Whithout no words we got no form. A "practice" or "style" are merely exercises of the form. Another words, A work expectant of reward. Your sounding like a chatholic. Lol.

But that's ok, just keep on asking someone else to ask God To forgive you and you should be alright!?

Would you consider that ^^^ a practice or a style?

Firstly, there's no middleman between man and God. Meaning, God is intimate with each individual. There are no steps(work) you gotta take to approach Jesus. Just saying His name brings Him to your doorstep.

Secondly, what would be the reason for pursuing a life in good "style" and "practice" ? Other than the smooth sailing it may bring. But what would be the net accomplishment of practicing good deeds if you have no understanding of the words, everlasting life?

I believe God is the Word, and the Word is God. And there's no knowing Him without it. Sure you can practice goodness and live a prosperous life. But you won't know what to do with it or why it's good for the universe.. The words in the bible have been laced to provide multiple meanings, therein lies the beauty and power to reach each individual. And gives the individual an open hyway for continual growth.

To surmise, the universe proves to us what we put out there comes back. I.e. Put out positive vibes, get back positive vibes. I don't believe this is what Jesus came here solely to teach. Why would He while hanging on the cross say, " oh Father why has thou forsaken me?"?

If Jesus could feel forsaken by God after a seemingly life filled with good deeds. How are we not to be expectant of feeling the same forsakenness once in awhile. Jesus gave us the example of crying out to the Father, and He was answered by being lifted from the grave and life restored. Jesus is our Brother who has gone before us in example and now stands as a shinning light for us to see our way to the Father.

Jesus begat Christianity by crying out to the Lord. This is the example we should follow.

Largo

Sport climber

The Big Wide Open Face

Apr 6, 2016 - 11:26am PT

I believe God is the Word, and the Word is God.
------

Sorry Blue, but no matter what you believe, the map is never the territory itself, or else the word "wind" would blow in your face, instead of being black marks on the page.

Take a way the word, and the wind still blows.

A practice of staying intimate with the wind itself, so to speak, with no doctrine between you, would result in what, do you imagine.

And I'm not saying that forays into holy texts are not fruitful. But when you close the Good Book, what might happen if you left it closed and just sat in the wind, not concerned with interpretations or being "right" about miracles?

JL

fear

Ice climber

hartford, ct

Apr 6, 2016 - 12:24pm PT

"Wednesday

My dearest.

The weather is quite delicious. Yesterday after writing to you I strolled a little beyond the glade for an hour & half & enjoyed myself—the fresh yet dark green of the grand Scotch Firs, the brown of the catkins of the old Birches with their white stems & a fringe of distant green from the larches, made an excessively pretty view.

At last I fell asleep on the grass and awoke with a chorus of birds singing around me, and squirrels running up the trees and some Woodpeckers laughing, and it was as pleasant a rural scene as ever I saw and did not care one penny how any of the beasts or birds had been formed."

-Chuck Darwin to his wife

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Apr 6, 2016 - 12:44pm PT

What might happen if just for one day beliefs and doctrine were set aside and you just sat in the heart of it?

We'll never know. Most believers are too tied up with the big clubhouse and looking right.

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 6, 2016 - 12:47pm PT

I do it every day
no beliefs, no doctrine

it's quite freeing actually, you all should try it
even Largo

what possible doctrine are atheists bound to?
none

Faith in some religious belief?
nope

no one looking over my shoulder, no worries about death,
no possible chance of a "permanent record" listing good and bad
just let life happen and try and figure a way to make it work

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Apr 6, 2016 - 01:06pm PT

Take a way the word, and the wind still blows.

i think your describing experience? and i agree with what your say'in. Words belong on a sign, right?

Outside my window the wind is blowing 45mph right now!

Outside my window the is blowing 45mph right now!

Leaving out just one word could kill any chance i have in describing my experience to you. i guess we discovered words primarily for where two or more people congregate? The solitary person has no need for them? Words were brought out by experience for the sake of sharing experience, right?

The description you gave on climbing the Nose IAD, gave me hope that i might be able to do it too. But until i actually go up there and try, i really won't know what you meant by "Kingswing"

Unless we seek first the name of Jesus, we shall never experience the Holyspirit(atleast not in this lifetime).

StahlBro

Trad climber

San Diego, CA

Apr 6, 2016 - 03:32pm PT

http://practicalspirituallife.com/jesus-means-mahatma-gandhi/

Largo

Sport climber

The Big Wide Open Face

Apr 6, 2016 - 04:04pm PT

Unless we seek first the name of Jesus, we shall never experience the Holyspirit(atleast not in this lifetime).
-

Blue, not sure I'm following you on this one, though I don't doubt it was true for you. Are you saying that the holy spirit is an experience that arises from the interface between consciousness and a word? Does Jesus have an exclusive on spiritual essence being bound in an object (the word)? Catholics say that the communal wafer (an object) IS the body of Christ. Does it not follow that without the object (word, wafer, totem, Crucifix, etc), the Holy Spirit is simply beyond human experience, making the object the key to the promise land?

And either way, how would a person know that?

STEEVEE

Social climber

HUMBOLDT, CA

Apr 6, 2016 - 05:09pm PT

One of the greatest teachers in my life has been my son, who is experiencing his teenage years. It has become very clear to me now that when I ignore him he gets pissed off, in my face and acts out. Essentially he says to me, "Do you see me?" He calms down when I reassure him I do see him.
When I remind him to see others he gets pissed off, acts out and gets in my face. I feel sad and show him. He calms down.
This morning he made me breakfast and I turned it down because I was in a rush to get to work. He stopped me and said, "Dad, are you sure you don't want an omelet and fruit salad?" I said yes I will have the breakfast you made...and we had a wonderful breakfast together. He gave and I excepted. I felt love all around me.

neebee

Social climber

calif/texas

Apr 6, 2016 - 05:56pm PT

hey there say, Gary... just stopped by to see what all this was,
here...

as to this quote:

...when the pastor told me people like the Tassaday who'd never had any contact with the outside world were going to hell.

oh my, that's so sad that he'd say that,
these are things that humans do not know, of anyone... :(

:(

WBraun

climber

Apr 6, 2016 - 06:27pm PT

Just plain face it.

Americans are just plain stoopid.

Their god is money and technology.

Two stoopid things that don't do sh!t for you.

Americans think they are the body and money and technology put lipstick on the pig ......

Gary

Social climber

Where in the hell is Major Kong?

Apr 6, 2016 - 06:37pm PT

neebee, that's just the luck of the draw, they say. God's going to send somebody to hell for eternity, because some missionaries never made it to the deep interior of Indonesia.

Seems fair.

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Apr 6, 2016 - 06:39pm PT

Just look, the imaginary sky father mental projection.
Americans are so stoopid.

Some universe dad is controlling everything, stoopid Americans projections on the rest of humanity. You don't need Jesus to tell you that murder is wrong, but you need religious rules to tell you that killing is wrong and more guns are good. Stoopid Americans...

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 6, 2016 - 07:24pm PT

Is werner back yet?

I may have forgot to take him off greasemonkey in anticipation of his return

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 6, 2016 - 08:28pm PT

"Here's the very short version of a very long, multi-year story. I believe abiogenesis requires more faith than faith in God."

Hmmm. Life is here so I don't find abiogenesis terribly far-fetched even if we don't understand it. God vs. zeus vs. the tooth fairy vs. Santa Claus on the other hand I'm pretty clear on.

"Not to mention how many biochemical mechanisms are lacking from macroevolution theory."

Which would those be?

Hey, we both have faith! After studying it, though, I must say I believe my faith is less far fetched.

I probably worded that second quote wrong. I don't have a list of those that are lacking, but rather haven't ever read of any that I think could explain abiogenesis and the leaps and bounds in complex life. I concede that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. This could go on forever so I'll just leave it at my original summary.

If you took the heart and soul of the Pauline letters, and used that as a guide, minus any explanation about what they "mean," and ignoring all "evidence," rather you simply tried to live it, what do suppose would happen.

Any time I see the focus on doctrine over existential truth, I wonder what the person is hoping to reap from their religion - a spiritual existence, or to be right about a bunch of equivocal history.

What might happen if just for one day beliefs and doctrine were set aside and you just sat in the heart of it?

A practice of staying intimate with the wind itself, so to speak, with no doctrine between you, would result in what, do you imagine.

And I'm not saying that forays into holy texts are not fruitful. But when you close the Good Book, what might happen if you left it closed and just sat in the wind, not concerned with interpretations or being "right" about miracles?

I don't believe either of these questions were directed at me, but I'll share my opinion anyway :)
I think I understand what you're saying, and in principle I think you have a good point. Spending time practicing what our beliefs teach, rather than debating technicalities, if essential. However, I also believe that we must study and know our beliefs if we are to practice them (Proverbs 7:2-3). Also, I don't think simply doing good, for our short stay on earth, is what Jesus wanted nor what will help us spend eternity with him (Romans 10:9-11). I also believe that we could use God's help when trying to live like we should (Philippians 2:13). In the end, I think we should all spend time quietly with God, enjoying the wind, like Jesus did (Luke 5:16), but I personally enjoy learning about what I believe.

"Where it gets tricky is when people have never been specifically told about Jesus."

Well, why doesn't your god just tell them? Why does he feel the need to f*#k with people?

This is why I left the Methodists, when the pastor told me people like the Tassaday who'd never had any contact with the outside world were going to hell.

Sorry, that breaks my heart. I'll find what I wrote earlier in response to a similar question:
Great, and tough, question. First, I believe that priests in the old testament would offer sacrifices for people who sinned in ignorance (numbers 15:22-29) and because Jesus was the final sacrifice for all sins (Hebrews 10:12) his blood covered those sins as well. We at least know that Jesus made a distinction between sins committed in ignorance and those that weren't (Luke 12:47-48).

But, the bible teaches that anyone who searches for God will find him (Deuteronomy 4:29) so I believe it is possible for anyone to know him. It also says that nobody has an excuse because knowledge of God is inherent, so everyone will at least consider the idea and decide whether or not to reject it (Romans 1:19-20).

Bottom line is that I believe that God has revealed himself to everyone so they can know his love and mercy. The problem is not that some people never hear about Christ, but that they reject what has been revealed to them. He wants everyone to know about him (2 Peter 3:9) and whatever we believe about this question he wants Christians to share his message (Matthew 28:19-20).

As a side note, I believe that everyone has sinned and does not deserve a reward (Romans 3:23) so even if only a few people accept the love of Jesus he is still merciful. It always comes back to the love of Jesus.

You don't need Jesus to tell you that murder is wrong

Honest question, similar to what I asked earlier when some people thoughtfully responded. From a purely material view, what does make something wrong? I'm not looking for some correct answer, I just want to see what people think...

WBraun

climber

Apr 6, 2016 - 08:32pm PT

Americans have spoiled themselves with with their over emphasis of materialism.

They've raped the resources of the entire planet to support their so called high standard of living at the expense of the rest of the world.

Causing so much pain, suffering and endless wars.

Their god is more and more materialism and stoopid worthless junk in their stores that all ends up in the dumpster
after only a limited few years if even that long.

Their karma is to suffer becoming more and more stoooopid ......

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Apr 6, 2016 - 09:05pm PT

making the object the key to the promise land?

Naw. Thought i been describing the opposite. Something like, the object as being the lock and Jesus being the key.. that's seems weak tho.

i should'a been more clear. i'm a fan of the triune system of "God". The Father-Son-HolyGhost that Jesus describes in the NT. Three seperate entities, with 3 separate jobs. One doesn't not pray to the HG over forgiveness for their sin. Forgiveness comes from our God the Father. The HolyGost is our "Helper". The Father sent He and His Angels here to earth to consul and inspire the souls of God's children through their prayer and praising. Our Father sent his Son, Jesus to share the experience of being a material mortal man susceptible to sin and death. When He was found guiltless by the judge, and yet put to death by the people. His mortal injustice became the sacrifice for our justified sins against God our Father. His was the ultimate sacrifice(that would be why i called Him the key). i believe His work has been done here on earth, and He's now sitting at the right hand of the Father. It' the HolySpirit doing work through God's love here on the planet today, i'm sure He has a stake in everyone's salvation. i've just only seen Him move when the name Jesus was invoked by a believer..

vvvyeah. Satan's got his angels to
vvvv

Flip Flop

climber

Earth Planet, Universe

Apr 6, 2016 - 09:37pm PT

Angels? Really?

Ah yes, the multiple-personality version that's eerily schizophrenic. Fascinating. Really.

"Put down the knife, Dad."

[Click to View YouTube Video]

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Apr 7, 2016 - 07:06am PT

Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber

moving thru

Apr 7, 2016 - 09:27am PT

What I find interesting is that as soon as the word Christian appears, the bashing begins.

I read something this morning, a simple sentence written by a Bible teacher talking about John, a friend of jesus and a fisherman.

"A fisherman would have been hard to convince that the glory of God dwelled more powerfully in a building made of stone than in a bright pink and purple sunset over the Sea of Galilee. I know this for a fact, I live with a fisherman."

Not all Christians live and breath church buildings. It's in the heart.

If I have learned anything in my nearly 8 years here on ST it is that a person should not lump people together, label them and stick them in a box.

Each one of us comes from a different upbringing, life circumstance and background. Living each day makes us the unique individual we are. I confess I used to put people in slots, labeling them, until I began to met each of you and began to know you and how you think and why you think as you do. It has been both humbling and enlightening for me.

Bashing, belittling and slandering others beliefs does nothing for anyone. Jess sayin', lynnie

Edit: and yes Werner, I totally agree. "For what price will a person sell their soul?"

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 7, 2016 - 09:38am PT

The bashing also starts with Muslims, liberals, socialists and everything else that is controversial.

It's whatever makes you uncomfortable when you see it being bashed.
Christians are ultra sensitive about their faith, any analysis of it is seen as BASHING.

I don't like seeing Hillary Clinton Bashed, so I ignore it, I know where it comes from, ignorance and hate.

I'm not bashing Christianity, I'm just asking questions that contradict Christianity's teachings.

Shouldn't any Strong religion be able to withstand any and all criticism.
Shouldn't you enjoy being able to defend your faith in a logical and rational manner?

If you can't, then you should read more about logical and rational explanations of the contradictions and shift your faith so it is in alignment with reality and the known facts.

Like I said before, you can't trap a scientist through questioning, they will never have "faith" in something "that can't be scientifically validated" that will bias their answers.
All questions can be answered with some type of scientific explanation.

I enjoy asking questions, and I enjoy answering questions.
Why get defensive?

STEEVEE

Social climber

HUMBOLDT, CA

Apr 7, 2016 - 09:47am PT

If I have learned anything in my nearly 8 years here on ST it is that a person should not lump people together, label them and stick them in a box.

The thread author chose to label himself...

STEEVEE

Social climber

HUMBOLDT, CA

Apr 7, 2016 - 10:19am PT

...and the moral of the story is?

STEEVEE

Social climber

HUMBOLDT, CA

Apr 7, 2016 - 10:33am PT

Oh...I thought the moral was don't fall into the trap of materialism and don't tempt fate.

Largo

Sport climber

The Big Wide Open Face

Apr 7, 2016 - 10:49am PT

I have nothing but respect for Blue, but he operates from a different code than the one i do or even understand. Same with Craig, who wants physical proof for non-physical phenomenon, and lacking same, declares there is "no such thing." But nobody ever said "God" was an object.

These are all fascination issues to me, but above and beyond what we might think about it, the more interesting question has to do with the real experiences people have once the doctrine is forgotten. At least to me.

Said differently, a topo map is a useful thing to have before heading up a big wall. But you're not up there to understand the topo or validate how "true" it is. Either way, the proof is in the climbing itself, so to speak, not what we think or believe about it. And when you have climbed the route and have your own direct experiences, the cognitive content of others is of second-hand value, at best.

JEleazarian

Trad climber

Fresno CA

Apr 7, 2016 - 10:53am PT

Lynne,

As always, you post with grace and truth. As Cosmic pointed out, Daniel started this thread with an offer to answer questions people had of him. In my opinion, he has done so calmly, politely, logically and generously. I greatly appreciate it, and I greatly appreciate those who disagree with him that do so with the same politeness and openness.

I had great difficulty accepting that the Gospel was "good news," because it is good news only to those who see themselves as sinners. Let's just say I didn't exactly see the attraction of taking up my cross daily, or offering my life as a living sacrifice. Ultimately, Christianity requires complete humility of its followers and, being a typical climber, that is not a quality that comes easily to me. Add the seemingly obiquitous "holier than thou" attitude, express or implied, and that was enough to keep me on the outside, until God Himself intervened.

For this Christian, at least, the "holier than thou" attitudes I see still turn me off, but I haven't read them from Daniel or, really, any of the other Christians on this thread. I know that I don't deserve the blessing God gave me, and it's for that reason that I don't keep silent when I sense an invitation to share my faith, so please forgive me for burring into this thread. God's gift is too great, and the consequences of rejecting it too horrible, to keep my mouth shut.

John

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 7, 2016 - 11:04am PT

who wants physical proof for non-physical phenomenon, and lacking same, declares there is "no such thing." But nobody ever said "God" was an object.

Who says God is not an Object?

You say that.
How do you know? any proof of this?

Christians say something else, they say God does things, like saves people and the whole Jesus thing is very important

We look for a object called god and don't find one, so you shift the search for a non-object and call that God

what we look at all the non-objects and still don't find anything, then what?

Shift to the next thing that hasn't been thoroughly searched
on and on.

Can you be "God", and just be a regular human at the same time.

Man created God in his own image,
man will never find outside his own mind.

There is nothing out there, it's always come from inside the mind, there is no "God" in any true sense of the word

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Apr 7, 2016 - 12:23pm PT

Lynne is offended by a creationism meme?!

Sorry (not sorry) the True Believers are so easily offended, but

I'm just getting started

Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber

Out Of Bed

Apr 7, 2016 - 12:28pm PT

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Gary

Social climber

Where in the hell is Major Kong?

Apr 7, 2016 - 12:37pm PT

For Lynne:
[Click to View YouTube Video]

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Apr 7, 2016 - 12:43pm PT

[Click to View YouTube Video]

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 7, 2016 - 01:27pm PT

I'm not bashing Christianity, I'm just asking questions that contradict Christianity's teachings.

Shouldn't any Strong religion be able to withstand any and all criticism.
Shouldn't you enjoy being able to defend your faith in a logical and rational manner?

I'm enjoying myself!

Like I said before, you can't trap a scientist through questioning, they will never have "faith" in something "that can't be scientifically validated" that will bias their answers.
All questions can be answered with some type of scientific explanation.

Interesting. This is much, much different than what I have experienced.

These are all fascination issues to me, but above and beyond what we might think about it, the more interesting question has to do with the real experiences people have once the doctrine is forgotten. At least to me.

What I would give to have the words to explain this. But I don't expect to be able to convey this peace, as is said in Philippians 4:7, "And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus."

Conversely, I have been fascinated by what it is like to live life with a believe in only the physical and observable. People who remain optimistic through difficult times without faith in the hand of God impress and confuse me.

I know that I don't deserve the blessing God gave me, and it's for that reason that I don't keep silent when I sense an invitation to share my faith, so please forgive me for burring into this thread. God's gift is too great, and the consequences of rejecting it too horrible, to keep my mouth shut.

No need to apologize to anyone here John, you and everyone else add value to the conversation!

Thanks for the kind words and good questions. I like that this thread seems to still revolve around peoples' curiosity about each other, 500+ posts later.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Apr 7, 2016 - 01:47pm PT

It works the other way too...thank (oops) God.

Norton

Social climber

Apr 7, 2016 - 02:01pm PT

The God of the Bible allows slavery, including selling your own daughter as a sex slave (Exodus 21:1-11), child abuse (Judges 11:29-40 & Isaiah 13:16), and bashing babies against rocks (Hosea 13:16 & Psalms 137:9).

In 2 Kings 10:18-27, God orders the murder of all the worshipers of a different god in their very own church

Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark.7:9-13 “Whoever curses father or mother shall die” (Mark 7:10 NAB)

I could go on and on and on, but I won't because you already know the Bible.

So my question; IF the Bible is the literal word of god, then how do you justify god telling humans to rape, enslave, and murder?

To myself, it is quite clear that ignorant sheep herders, men of their time, wrote those horrible parts of the Bible, and not a god.

So, the entire Bible either IS or is NOT the works or men or the word of god?

One cannot "cherry pick" in good conscious if one is a "true" Christian who believes that the entire Bible was not written by humans, can one?

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Apr 7, 2016 - 03:13pm PT

I've got a legitimate questions too:

Was the earth made in 6 days, if so, were dinosaurs alive with Jesus?

When the rapture happens and Christians ascend into heaven, how do they breathe in space?

thanks

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 7, 2016 - 03:35pm PT

How do they breath in space?

That's a silly question
They don't go all the way into space

they only go up into the clouds, where there's air
They got a whole heaven like thing going on up there

some kind of anti-gravity force field makes it so they can live up there
they grow food, build castles, hang with Jesus,
It's total Bliss!

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Apr 7, 2016 - 04:10pm PT

Cosmic, isn't that great stuff!
jesus' experience started and ended with the HolySpirit at His side! The HS had knew this day of temptation was comin and had been preparing Jesus since birth. Since it is written that every man will be tempted from his own accord. The HS had to leave Jesus alone with satan. Up till this point, satan didn't know if Jesus was "The Christ". Satan had already tested countless others who also claimed to be THE Son of God. But they all failed. satan had known the Christ was coming since it was written(before the foundations of the earth). Both Jesus and satan quote scripture in this test/temptation. i think it's imperative we read chap.4 not with what the words materially describe, but look to the spiritual meaning. satan said; if thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. Like this, it sounds like a test of magic, turning rocks into food, don't you think? i believe the stones satan was pointing at were the 10 commandment stones, also known as "The Law", "The Word". And the "bread" IS the Christ. From this standpoint i see a few avenues we could go down. 1. satan was prodding Jesus' proclamation of being the Son of God, for which than He should have the power to command the (stones)Law to become (Bread)Grace.
For which Jesus answered; it is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." For me this reveals something about how much satan understands. satan is asking why doesnt God just give all sinners a hall pass. But Jesus understands that that would negate what God had already said, and that is primarily over the issuance of free-will to man..

i'd love to talk more on this.

Did you notice, once Jesus passed this test, and His faith was determined. The Angles returned to Him and ministered? Here's a great example of God working. He sent the spirit to lead Jesus into his temptation. Then the HS retracts allowing for jesus to choose His own good. This is faith God puts in us to do the right thing. I'm sure jesus knew he did the right thing once the spirit returned!

The Spirit too helps us in the same way..

Contractor

Boulder climber

Apr 7, 2016 - 04:24pm PT

Norton, Patrick, Craig, Locker-

Don't knock post enlightenment cherry picking please! It's the only thing that's kept the Born Again's in my family from flogging my dope smoking, leftest ass.

Give the Muslims another hundred years and they'll be cherry picking from the convenience tree and then that religion will have a small degree of tolerability as well.

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Apr 7, 2016 - 04:28pm PT

Blue,

I grew up around evangelicals, but what you wrote makes zero sense.

None of it does to me now, really, but you are a special level of Christian huh? like a Special Ops or something?

Largo

Sport climber

The Big Wide Open Face

Apr 7, 2016 - 06:21pm PT

It's pretty obvious that when people start bickering about the historical or physical problems with miracles and old Hebrew myths about origins and so forth, the conversation devolves into farce and what's get lost is what might be valuable in a person's actual life, above and far beyond the confines or tradition and mythology. What this thread bears out - at least these last bits - is that fundamentalists and "scientists" are obsessed with the the same things (the historical and physical verity of myths and miracles).

The larger questions remain unexplored. This is the curse of a quantifying approach to spiritual issues and the search for truth in all the wrong places, a process that works well with objects and things, not so much here.

Strikes me like two bald men arguing over a comb. Even when one gets it, they still have something useless, and have truly only gone skin deep with the whole business.

JL

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Apr 7, 2016 - 06:35pm PT

My prior questions were in my head when I was 6-7 years old. Oh, and I read some 'tracts' about Hell that scared the sh#t of of me, so I learned to not ask too many questions. Cuz, ya know, Thomas doubted and look what happened to him.

but fair enough,

how about these questions:

Is predestintion biblical, given that Yaweh sees and knows all?

If yes, why did god create people (especially Jews) to torture them in hell?

If yes, do we have a say in our own salvation?

If yes, do abortions and miscarriages go to hell, given that they were predetermined not to exist in the material world?

Contractor

Boulder climber

Apr 7, 2016 - 06:40pm PT

To that end- The fact that bacteria has been scientifically proven to survive space travel resets the whole notion of intelligent design aside from unsubstantiated quibbles over dogmatic lore and tradition.

Are we dandelion seeds blown with intent from past worlds?

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Apr 7, 2016 - 07:37pm PT

I have nothing but respect for Blue, but he operates from a different code than the one i do or even understand.

Thanks Largo! my same sentiments and sentience, right back at you. Ha! see what i did there? i've learned alot off ya over on the "Vs" thread. The respect is all from me:)

Although, i still can't give "sentience" a dignified definition.. i'm pretty sure in there somewhere is; "the ability to recognize as we are a living, breathing, blood flowing, sensing, FEELING, organism. And within this recognition we are able to remember prior experience and make decisions based on how we feel inorder to proceed into the future." ?

i'm trying to see sentience as more than just the awareness of "being" a living, sensing, feeling organism. Rather the dual dialog we human's each have within our brain seemingly trying to predict the future. Maybe this is the big "I" vs the little "i" PsP's been noting?

i may be stuck with what i think is the definition of conscience from the OT, and how sentience is different?

Do you think sentience cohorts outside the individual?

Awe,, i'm spugging! as my new client likes to say..

Sorry Limpingcrab!, i shall recline

Gary

Social climber

Where in the hell is Major Kong?

Apr 7, 2016 - 08:11pm PT

Dr. Gene Scott at his best:

http://blogfiles.wfmu.org/KF/2006/gene_scott.mpeg

But let's not forget the late great OL Jaggers and Miss Velma.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Unfortunately, there's no youtube of their golden altar of revelation incense prayer. It was mesmerizing.

Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber

moving thru

Apr 7, 2016 - 08:17pm PT

Thank You, Gary, for the kid story.

Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber

moving thru

Apr 7, 2016 - 08:40pm PT

Largo....."what gets lost is what might be valuable in a person's actual life....."

And that which was valuable became life saving, even life creating for me. I may sound dramatic, but it is the truth in my life, lynne.

Moof

Big Wall climber

Orygun

Apr 7, 2016 - 08:52pm PT

I'm pretty sure Jesus would not see his teachings in most self reporting "christians". How come?

Who is right, the Pope or the head of the russian orthodox church? Both are incapable of error, but don't seem agree on some details. WTF?

Which parts of the old testament are null and void? How come? Which parts are mandatory today, and why? Who decides which are in vogue, and why aren't those details and dates in that little black book.

Who goes to hell? Will a immoral Christian or a truly moral athiest have a preference?

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Apr 7, 2016 - 08:58pm PT

^^^ We are all gentiles trying to be jewish?

Flip Flop

climber

Earth Planet, Universe

Apr 7, 2016 - 09:26pm PT

My first encounter with an Orthodox Christian was in El Cap Meadows. In the real world I'm interested in your experience and he was in charge of a bunch of normal looking kids. He looked like a 30 year old Nostradamus. Or so. Robe, beard, hat.
I'm my usual gregarious and enthusiastic self, proclaiming the glory manifest all around us and in his young charges. He vehemently denied that We and Everything that we see were divine or of G-d. He was a grim dude. Super grim.
That's where they lost it to the Catholics. Wine and babies is a winning strategy. And G-d save us from proselytizing Wasps. Is there a more sexless, passionless group of religions than the European takes on the Good 'ol Book o' Stories?
In some world views there are two souls; the alma and the anima. Alma mater is the nourishing mother. Anima Mundi is the world spirit. I doubt that our orthodox friend would agree with Plato here, but I do,

"Therefore, we may consequently state that: this world is indeed a living being endowed with a soul and intelligence ... a single visible living entity containing all other living entities, which by their nature are all related." - Don Plato

ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber

ne'er–do–well

Apr 7, 2016 - 10:35pm PT

a truly moral athiest

Satan

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 7, 2016 - 11:21pm PT

Hi Limping.

Ok, so I have a legitimate question for you.

And this is NOT meant to "trap" you in any way, just want to know how you personally deal with, justify the many, many inconsistencies in the Bible.

I am sure you are very aware of the simply awful passages in Exodus and Deuteronomy, among others.

Just a few examples:

The God of the Bible allows slavery, including selling your own daughter as a sex slave (Exodus 21:1-11), child abuse (Judges 11:29-40 & Isaiah 13:16), and bashing babies against rocks (Hosea 13:16 & Psalms 137:9).

In 2 Kings 10:18-27, God orders the murder of all the worshipers of a different god in their very own church

Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark.7:9-13 “Whoever curses father or mother shall die” (Mark 7:10 NAB)

I could go on and on and on, but I won't because you already know the Bible.

So my question; IF the Bible is the literal word of god, then how do you justify god telling humans to rape, enslave, and murder?

To myself, it is quite clear that ignorant sheep herders, men of their time, wrote those horrible parts of the Bible, and not a god.

So, the entire Bible either IS or is NOT the works or men or the word of god?

One cannot "cherry pick" in good conscious if one is a "true" Christian who believes that the entire Bible was not written by humans, can one?

This is a long question! But I'm glad you asked as it is something everyone who reads the Bible is destined to think about. I thought this would come up much sooner to be honest. I'll answer what I, personally, believe about this after studying the entire story of the Bible. Keep in mind that I believe the Bible has a historical flow, so I do not want to cherry pick certain verses and will try to provide context. One at a time:

1. Slavery: Slavery in Old Testament time was not the terrible injustice that we associate it with today and what happened in the United States. In fact, anyone who abducted a person and either sold or kept them was to be put to death (Exodus 21:16). There was no safety net or welfare back then so people often sold themselves into slavery so they could be fed and housed, or sold family members whom they could not support. It was about economics and survival, not race or oppression. Because voluntary slavery was widely practiced, the Bible prescribes laws to help protect the lives and health of slaves. I believe the focus of the Bible is for internal transformation that will effect the way people act and think, which is what God desires, more than it was for political reformation. Under God there is no Jew, Greek, Gentile, slave or any other label (Colossians 3:11).

2. Child Abuse: The first story you referenced was when Jephthah made an oath to God that he would sacrifice whatever came out of his house after the battle if he won. I believe this was a foolish oath, and he murdered his daughter. There is no evidence that, although God used him in battle (discussed later), God condoned this action. In fact He strictly forbids human sacrifice (Deuteronomy 12:31). Some people interpret this to mean she was given to the Temple to serve, since the story talks about how she will not marry. I personally try not to twist stories in the Bible just to make myself comfortable, so I don't necessarily agree with this interpretation. But I won't argue with someone about it, either.

To conclude, I don't think God allows child abuse.

I'll address the second story you mention next.

3. Killing Men, Women and Children. My beliefs about when the Jews were sent to wipe out entire nations should cover all of your other statements.

God commanding the killing of entire Nations in the Old Testament is often cited by critics, and sometimes even included in statements like, "I was a Christian until I read the Old Testament."

First, the Canaanite culture was extremely vile in every sense of the word and even practiced human sacrifice. The Judgement of God was not directed at something like ethnic cleansing, but rather the religions and practices that directly opposed God (Deuteronomy 12:2-3). There were individuals and groups that were spared when they repented. God first desires that people turn from their sins, rather than die (Ezekiel 18:31-32).

Also, don't forget that God gave the people in these nations generations of time to change their ways. He gave them over 400 years (Genesis 15:13–16), and they were aware of God. Both men and women were guilty, but what about children? First, nobody is truly innocent. But I also believe, more importantly, that children who are too young to make important decisions will go to heaven (I discussed this in detail, with citations, earlier). Not to mention that if all of the men and women were killed, leaving infants out in the exposure would probably be a worse death. If anyone was innocent, in those whole populations, the story of God shows that he would have saved them (Genesis 18:22).

The Bible tells us that God is both kind and severe (Romans 11:22). His character demands that sin be punished, but his grace extends to anyone willing to simply accept it. Before these wars, God punished people who rejected Him with a flood and was gracious enough to keep humanity going. In the time in question, God used a group of people to punish and remove the people who had rejected Him. Because He commanded people to do it, rather than doing it directly (like the flood), it makes us much more uncomfortable.

Maybe I over explained this, but God does punish people when they reject him and live in rebellion to His plan and desire for a relationship. Sometimes he uses natural disasters, other times he chooses groups of people to carry out his plans. An analogy might be removing a leg with gangrene to preserve the life and the rest of the body.

This, I believe, tells the whole story, rather than cherry picking verses to look like God condones certain actions at all times. Thanks to Jesus, we are now all his chosen people if we accept this grace. He suffered for those sins so that we don't have to.

I've got a legitimate questions too:

Was the earth made in 6 days, if so, were dinosaurs alive with Jesus?

thanks

I do not believe I know the answer to that question. As I see it, there are three options.

1. God created the earth in six days, in motion. As in, he made stars millions of lightyears away, but they could already be seen. Because of this the earth was in motion in the same way. This seems kind of tricky to me, but maybe that's why God said he will humble the wise and we should trust in him above human wisdom (1st Corinthians 3:19).

2. He created it a long time ago and it has changed and evolved for a long time.

3. No God, it banged and life came from non-life.

I think the first two can be convincingly argued but I don't have enough faith to believe the third option.

When the rapture happens and Christians ascend into heaven, how do they breathe in space?

Space gills, of course.

I don't intend to get into debates here, only to give people a chance to ask someone who tries to follow Jesus why I believe what I do.

I believe that it would be a good thing for people to enjoy living out the teachings of the Pauline letters, as you say, but I also think that a belief in Jesus is the foundation. From what I can tell you would like to talk about how humans would look if they followed teachings and spent time considering it, but without worrying about where the teachings came from. Or what fruit would look like if there were no trees. Maybe I'm not understanding, but I would like to if you would clarify.

how about these questions:

Is predestintion biblical, given that Yaweh sees and knows all?

If yes, why did god create people (especially Jews) to torture them in hell?

If yes, do we have a say in our own salvation?

If yes, do abortions and miscarriages go to hell, given that they were predetermined not to exist in the material world?

I do not know the answer to your first question, so I guess the next ones are not applicable. I used to try to figure that one out until I realized it would not effect how I would live so I decided not to stress about. The arguments on both sides seem to center on the difference between knowing what will happen and determining what will happen.

I addressed your last question earlier in this thread, but I believe that children too young to decide will spend eternity with God and the sacrifice of Jesus covers them (2nd Samuel 12).

I believe this is the scapegoat for the scientists that have accepted the improbability of abiogenesis.

I'm pretty sure Jesus would not see his teachings in most self reporting "christians". How come?

I believe that people are hypocrites.

Who is right, the Pope or the head of the russian orthodox church? Both are incapable of error, but don't seem agree on some details. WTF?

I'm not sure where Catholicism got this idea, but I personally believe that the Bible has the authority (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

Which parts of the old testament are null and void? How come? Which parts are mandatory today, and why? Who decides which are in vogue, and why aren't those details and dates in that little black book.

I believe that most of the Old Testament is stories, but that some of it is the Old Testament Law. The Laws were designed to help sinners get closer to a perfect God, to function in a society, and were based on sacrifices. Jesus was the final sacrifice so he essentially completed the story and now we all have access to God through Him, without a need for the law (1st John 2:2).

Who goes to hell? Will a immoral Christian or a truly moral athiest have a preference?

I believe the center of my faith is Jesus, and from an eternal perspective accepting his love is more important than our day to day actions. Though I do not believe it is possible to know Jesus and still continue consistently opposing him in action (Romans 6:1-2).

Gary

Social climber

Where in the hell is Major Kong?

Apr 8, 2016 - 05:38am PT

Real classy, Gary.

Yeah, that 4 year old girl was classy. Too bad some of those preachers don't have the understanding that she has.

Contractor

Boulder climber

Apr 8, 2016 - 06:36am PT

Limpcrab-

1. Slavery: Slavery in Old Testament time was not the terrible injustice that we associate it with today and what happened in the United States. In fact, anyone who abducted a person and either sold or kept them was to be put to death (Exodus 21:16). There was no safety net or welfare back then so people often sold themselves into slavery so they could be fed and housed, or sold family members whom they could not support. It was about economics and survival, not race or oppression. Because voluntary slavery was widely practiced, the Bible prescribes laws to help protect the lives and health of slaves. I believe the focus of the Bible is for internal transformation that will effect the way people act and think, which is what God desires, more than it was for political reformation. Under God there is no Jew, Greek, Gentile, slave or any other label (Colossians 3:11).

Are you really going there? This is no different than me defending my southern ancestors by saying "they treated their nigras real good!".

This is a good example of "Clinging" that Largo referenced.

I refrain from attacking religious mythology because it's rationally indefensible. There's always going to be defenders of the faith with a fresh brand of crafty, nuanced literalism and they specialize in dragging critics into the weeds. This never leads to consensus and most often leads to both parties trapped in dueling paradoxical arguments.

As intimated by others, if you are truly graced by a spiritual presence, and based on the lack of scientific explanations in regards to the genesis of life, would these not be more credible lines of debate and potential agreement?

WBraun

climber

Apr 8, 2016 - 07:05am PT

a spiritual presence, and based on the lack of scientific explanations

There's no real lack of scientific explanations for God or the spiritual realm.

The so called scientists only study the gross physical material realm.

Then they foolishly claim that is all in all because that's all their material senses can record.

They cluelessly never realize that every living entity is a spiritual entity and not material all because they stay in their idiotic dogma of materialism is all.

They're like frogs in a well and have no clue of the ocean .....

Contractor

Boulder climber

Apr 8, 2016 - 07:51am PT

WBraun- "Lack of science related to the genesis of life" is what I said.

Noun then verb- repeat; noun then verb- one more time...

I know of many great scientists that believe in a spiritual presence and that point, I don't argue.

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Apr 8, 2016 - 08:03am PT

Since it wasn't answered if jesus lived with the dinosaurs, I believe, on faith, he not only did, but killed them into extinction to give Murica oil!

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Norton

Social climber

Apr 8, 2016 - 10:11am PT

Limpingcrab,

respectfully, can you take another shot at my questions?

from reading your reply I felt you bs'd you way, example being your unbelievable response to god condoning slavery - that really the slaves kind of were ok with that

I asked you if you agreed those murdering, enslaving, raping orders from god were really written by men back then and not the literal word of god, I can't find your answer?

really limping, this needs to be cleared up, either all of the bible is the literal word of god with no cherry picking saying yeah, yes, some parts were written by men

thanks again, if you woiuld clear all this up better

Gary

Social climber

Where in the hell is Major Kong?

Apr 8, 2016 - 10:51am PT

Typical Oxymoron word like, Military intelligence, moral athiest,and Socialistic democrat...

...moral Christian.

Of all the "Christians" that I have met, I do know one fellow who actually lived a Christian life. He read the Bible and actually followed the things Jesus said about money, judging others, flaunting your belief in public, etc.

Gary

Social climber

Where in the hell is Major Kong?

Apr 8, 2016 - 01:13pm PT

Moose, I was an atheist once upon a time, but then decided that was just as arrogant as the religious folks. Now I know I just don't know.

That there might be something going on out there that I'm not hip to is definitely a possibility. I just hope it's not that old testament god.

Moof

Big Wall climber

Orygun

Apr 8, 2016 - 01:52pm PT

Keep in mind that I believe the Bible has a historical flow, so I do not want to cherry pick certain verses and will try to provide context.

Funny, you cite specific passages when it serves you, and gloss over vast sections as historic flow when they don't... How about that whole "I believe that people are hypocrites."...

I am amazed folks who believe in a "perfect" God, and who can reconcile the Bible being his unaltered word while it is such a badly written and self conflicted document. How could a "perfect" God botch the users manual so badly? Did he subcontract that out to a "special" angel?

Personally I think we would be better off as a world if the emphasis was on loving your fellow man, and living a moral life than trying to live by documents that serve more as Rorschach tests than as a manual to live a godly moral life by. I can dig a lot of the broad brush teaching of Jesus, but way far too few Christians seem to live by them, but instead cherry pick passages to support their hate and hypocrisy. It makes them an insufferable lot.

Gary

Social climber

Where in the hell is Major Kong?

Apr 8, 2016 - 02:30pm PT

Sure you know, Gary. I am sure you eliminated many beliefs as not possible. Thor? Shiva?

Thor is as likely as anything else.

Moof

Big Wall climber

Orygun

Apr 8, 2016 - 02:36pm PT

It is a classic question, what happens if the one true religion has already come and gone? Was Ra the sun god the right answer? Does everyone after that miss out? What about all the poor sots from before the one true religion came to be? Are all cavemen and all those who God chose to be born on the wrong continent all condemned to hell? All the Buddhists? You can't convince me that the Dalai Lama won't be making the cut.

Seems pretty callous.

Seems pretty awful for a perfect God to sit idly by for millennia watching every human spirit get shoveled downstairs while just biding his time to let his intricate plan play out and for the one true religion spring up so he can finally have some company.

WBraun

climber

Apr 8, 2016 - 02:39pm PT

Clueless ^^^^^ completely totally clueless.

An atheist now tells the world what God himself is doing and thinking.

You're insane .....

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Apr 8, 2016 - 03:21pm PT

Norton, you've posted those cut/paste things before. Did you ever read the passages? The comments in italic seem a bit construed from the meanings of those verses, to me atleast.

Above from the exodus 21 you linked. Here's one i like;
And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone,thou shaltnot build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.
Ex 20.25

Largo

Sport climber

The Big Wide Open Face

Apr 8, 2016 - 06:57pm PT

O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called "knowledge"--

---

I am guilty of chasing this empty chatter. But the non-historical, non-mythical issues of any religion, beyond faint and myth, continue to fascinate me. Bickering over the verity of an ancient moral code, not so much...

Fossil climber

Trad climber

Atlin, B. C.

Apr 8, 2016 - 08:13pm PT

"God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him..."

Which man?

Homo habilis? Homo erectus? Homo neanderthalensis? Homo sapiens?

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2016 - 09:04pm PT

Are you really going there? This is no different than me defending my southern ancestors by saying "they treated their nigras real good!".

I guess if we can't agree that there's a difference between people giving themselves to someone to exchange work for food and shelter for their family, and someone being forced into slavery for racial reasons, then we won't understand each other on this one.

I still don't believed the Bible condones slavery, but it did give rules to protect the people who enter into a contract to exchange work for food and shelter. Either way, the new testament teaches a love that is not compatible with this type of contract (Mark 12:31).

As intimated by others, if you are truly graced by a spiritual presence, and based on the lack of scientific explanations in regards to the genesis of life, would these not be more credible lines of debate and potential agreement?

Perhaps, but I don't see this as a stage to change anyone's mind, I only want to answer questions people have about a Christian. I believe that Jesus is the only one who can change minds (1st Corinthians 3:6).

Sorry, I think I was a little too wordy, and since I'm not good with those it probably wasn't clear.
I believe all of the Bible was inspired by God and is useful (2nd Timothy 3:16-17). I mean, there was a human with a pen at some point, but I believe the words came from God. I try not to cherry pick, and I don't think that I do. Jesus taught with parables and I don't think it changes anything if there wasn't an actual dude planting seeds in four types of soil with weeds and birds all around (Matthew 13). In the same way I don't have a problem with people believing that some of the stories in Genesis were parables. Personally, I believe what the Old Testament said actually happened and whoever wrote it was instructed by God. Without cherry picking, and reading the whole story, I have no doubt that God does not condone rape, murder or slavery. If you would like more specifics on one of those I'll do my best. But, without an eternal perspective and without acknowledging the severity of sin and rejecting God, it will be hard to understand what the Bible says.

"Keep in mind that I believe the Bible has a historical flow, so I do not want to cherry pick certain verses and will try to provide context."

Funny, you cite specific passages when it serves you, and gloss over vast sections as historic flow when they don't... How about that whole "I believe that people are hypocrites."...

Sorry, I'm not sure what you're referring to. I'll happily address what I believe about any passage you are curious about. I only cite verses so that I don't run my mouth and say a bunch of stuff that I can't back up with the text.

I am amazed folks who believe in a "perfect" God, and who can reconcile the Bible being his unaltered word while it is such a badly written and self conflicted document. How could a "perfect" God botch the users manual so badly? Did he subcontract that out to a "special" angel?

I don't believe this is correct and I am convinced there are no contradictions in the Bible. I have spent a lot of time on the skeptics Bible website, as well. If you have one you would like to ask me about, I'm all ears!

Personally I think we would be better off as a world if the emphasis was on loving your fellow man, and living a moral life than trying to live by documents that serve more as Rorschach tests than as a manual to live a godly moral life by. I can dig a lot of the broad brush teaching of Jesus, but way far too few Christians seem to live by them, but instead cherry pick passages to support their hate and hypocrisy. It makes them an insufferable lot.

Looks like we agree on some stuff after all.

I agree that it would be pretty lame if there was a God that condemned people to hell for not knowing about him, and then kept it a secret. Thankfully, that's not the God I believe in. I believe nobody is without excuse and he has revealed himself to everyone (Romans 1:20). I don't claim to understand how that works, but I believe God is just. Though a just God also punishes rejecting him, as just parents who loves their children would correct the kids while still loving them unconditionally.

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2016 - 09:52pm PT

"God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him..."

Which man?

Homo habilis? Homo erectus? Homo neanderthalensis? Homo sapiens?

I believe when God created Mad he made them special and gave them an eternal soul. I personally think He did this from scratch, but if someone believes He did so over time before we were given souls, I don't think it effects the overall message.

Limpingcrab, you just stated that the Bible was inspired by God. That's a really big thing for a Christian to say VS. the Bible being the word of God.

I'm bad with semantics. I meant that people were inspired to write down the word of God. However you slice it, I believe that the Bible is without error.

StahlBro

Trad climber

San Diego, CA

Apr 8, 2016 - 10:08pm PT

Why would he make man special? What is in it for God?

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Apr 9, 2016 - 06:07am PT

I believe that the Bible is without error.

from: http://www.2think.org/hundredsheep/bible/library/tough.shtml

1. Why does the evangelical church say there are no contradictions in the Bible when they are plainly there for anyone to see? (These are too numerous even to list a representative sample here. There are many books and monographs on this topic in the skeptical literature.1)

2. Why does the Old Testament teach that there is no hell, while the New Testament teaches that there is? The idea of "progressive revelation" does not explain the conflicts in the biblical texts.

3. Why does most of the Old Testament teach that there is no afterlife (see Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, for example), while later Old Testament writings and the New Testament do?

4. Why does the church say that God is not the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33), when many biblical passages flatly contradict this?2

5. Was God known by the name Yahweh prior to Moses (Exodus 6:3), or was he not (Genesis 4:26, 5:29, 9:24, 22:14, 27:20, 27:27, 28:20-21)?

6. Which "Ten Commandments" are the Ten Commandments - the ones listed at Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5, or the ones listed at Exodus 34? Only the list at Exodus 34 is explicitly called the "Ten Commandments" in the biblical text.

7. Was the Law given by Yahweh perfect (Psalm 19:7), or wasn't it (Hebrews 8:6-8)?

8. Why can't the six accounts of the resurrection be reconciled?3 Paul says that without the resurrection, the Christian faith is in vain (1 Cor 15:14). How could the biblical accounts possibly disagree on such an important narrative?

9. Why were the disciples surprised by Jesus's resurrection after Jesus had told them repeatedly to expect it?4 An angel even reminded the women that Jesus had told them of his impending resurrection (Luke 24:6-7). How is it that the women remembered his words (Luke 24:8), but the disciples didn't (John 20:9, Luke 24:12)? Even Jesus's enemies remembered that he had foretold that he would rise again (Matthew 27:63).

Flip Flop

climber

Earth Planet, Universe

Apr 9, 2016 - 08:17am PT

I believe that the Bible is without error.

That is the stupidest statement in a world of stupid statements. Seriously. Mouth Breathing, Pencil Licking stupid.

Norton

Social climber

Apr 9, 2016 - 08:31am PT

Massive fail, Limping Crab

You just defended murdering, raping, and enslaving humans beings

You simply can not say that the Bible, you can not even say that "portions"

were written by men, men who grew up watching their fathers and other "men" murdering, raping and enslaving and thought nothing of writing it down as a way of living, a directive for life, when they grew up, and those men were so damn ignorant, so delusional, they said god told them to write that down and other men, later called their writings a part of the "bible"

and you buy it, Limping Crab, strike three, you got nothing

edit: Wayne Merry, Fossil Climber, gets it, Homo Erectus indeed

WBraun

climber

Apr 9, 2016 - 08:49am PT

Big massive fail for the atheists

The hypocrite atheists defend murdering, raping, genocide, enslaving humans beings, along with terrorism with their perpetual wars all over the world.

The hypocrite atheists are the same as the hypocrite so called Christians.

The atheists and the so called Christians have no clue what a real Christian is .....

WBraun

climber

Apr 9, 2016 - 09:15am PT

If you're a real Christian then there is no negativity.

A real Christian can never be touched by any negativity.

That is why it has been referenced by the phrase "so called Christian" as to being the hypocrites.

The atheists can not nor understand the differences because of the very fact they are atheists.

They atheists are bound by the stringent laws of duality and contradictions of which they have no clue how to transcend.

They are fools .....

STEEVEE

Social climber

HUMBOLDT, CA

Apr 9, 2016 - 09:20am PT

Hypocrisy also reveals the truth. It's probably the greatest religion there is.

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 9, 2016 - 09:32am PT

Critical thought experiment

What if?

What if we put you inside a comfortable room, and this room was shielded by impenetrable walls, nothing can penetrate these walls, not even spiritual communication (stay focused, it's not a matter if such a wall can be fabricated, we can do it as a thought experiment), sub atomic particles or anything you could think of or anything you can't think of.

You are in this room, and we ask you if you can still feel your religious connections, or do you feel disconnected from this source?
would you feel empty?

what would happen??
God and Jesus can not be reached, the connection has been severed.

Even Largo would be in peril, his mind all alone, separated from the vast nothingness that he has been connecting to.

Nothing would change for me, that's my answer.

WBraun

climber

Apr 9, 2016 - 09:40am PT

not even spiritual communication

By even saying the above quote shows you are absolutely clueless.

Spiritual communication is impossible to sever.

One may or may not understand the spiritual communication according to time and circumstance but it is never ever severed.

If the spiritual communication is actually severed then the the entire cosmic manifestation would immediately disappear.

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 9, 2016 - 09:42am PT

No, it shows that you can not critically think
you can't even be challenged by a single idea that's outside your entrenched dogma

STEEVEE

Social climber

HUMBOLDT, CA

Apr 9, 2016 - 09:47am PT

But you are not alone...you still have billions of bacteria that out number your own body's cells.
The thought experiment is beyond comprehension to a person of faith and simply a righteous place for an atheist.
Sounds lonely, like God

STEEVEE

Social climber

HUMBOLDT, CA

Apr 9, 2016 - 10:05am PT

Whew...I'm posting as 664
Edit: 665 yeah baby! Okay Craig you're right, you're still not alone ;)

rottingjohnny

Sport climber

Shetville , North of Los Angeles

Apr 9, 2016 - 10:11am PT

bump to get off that number...

rottingjohnny

Sport climber

Shetville , North of Los Angeles

Apr 9, 2016 - 10:15am PT

The Pope is finally pulling his head out of the sand..

rottingjohnny

Sport climber

Shetville , North of Los Angeles

Apr 9, 2016 - 10:18am PT

Moose....666..! crap...time for some holy water and a rosary...

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 9, 2016 - 10:18am PT

No way
I'm completely alone

nothing, zip, null, none, zero

there are no connections from the outside
nor can my mind control anything on the outside physically

No one has been able to control the simplest material "item" with their mind, like a golf ball

It's all through the senses, everything entering can be observed, cut off and isolated
too hard to explain now, at work, must get back to or delete!!

RJ
I got you off the number
and now Cosmic has it
so we will have to manip it on his forehead

Too late Cosmic
We all saw it.

rottingjohnny

Sport climber

Shetville , North of Los Angeles

Apr 9, 2016 - 10:26am PT

Fry...I know someone with a garden hose and a golf ball that can do some fun stuff...rj

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 9, 2016 - 10:29am PT

all anyone has to do is be able to mentally control a little ball in flight

just nudge it the tiniest bit so it goes straight into the hole

But it can't be done, it has Never been done.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Apr 9, 2016 - 10:53am PT

the Pope are lightening up on their negative views towards Gays/Lesbians/TG people...

what'ya mean "lightening up"? Did you hear what he said? i thought he just laid down more rules?

Norton

Social climber

Apr 9, 2016 - 10:55am PT

Pope still says no to same sex marriage

but he loves equality

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2016 - 11:56am PT

Why would he make man special? What is in it for God?

In short, I believe God created man for his pleasure, and so that we would have the pleasure of knowing him (Revelations 4:11). I think that God is a personal being and he created us for the relationship (Jeremiah 31:3). This is another instance where I think the analogy of a father and children is appropriate.

Why does the evangelical church say there are no contradictions in the Bible when they are plainly there for anyone to see? (These are too numerous even to list a representative sample here. There are many books and monographs on this topic in the skeptical literature.

Why does the Old Testament teach that there is no hell, while the New Testament teaches that there is? The idea of "progressive revelation" does not explain the conflicts in the biblical texts

The old testament talk about death, eternal darkness, the pit, and other descriptions that are not directly translated to hell (Daniel 12:2). It also talk about how God will have his day when there will be judgement, and then that judgement is described in the new Testament and the word hell appears. I don't see this to be a contradiction in any way. Not specifically describing hell in the Old Testament is not the same as saying there is no hell. Unless someone wants to read it that way so they can claim there are contradictions.

I do believe that the Bible is a living text, and while I don't think any words are there due to error, I do concede that there are a variety of ways to interpret parts of it. When there are several choices, you can try to interpret it in a way that contradicts other parts of the Bible, or you can interpret it in way that are in harmony with all of the teachings.

Basically, if you want to, you can force contradictions into the Bible, but I believe that it is obvious that there aren't any.

I wish I still had this old PhD thesis, written by a secular person studying literature, that looked analyzed the whole Bible and found that there weren't any contradictions.

Seriously. Mouth Breathing, Pencil Licking stupid.

How did you know I was a mouth breather!? My septoplasty helped a bit, but I still rely on mouth more than nose :(

Massive fail, Limping Crab

You just defended murdering, raping, and enslaving humans beings

Sorry if there was a misunderstanding, but I have no idea where I defended those actions. I don't think acknowledging that they're in the Bible equates to defending them.

Critical thought experiment

What if?

What if we put you inside a comfortable room, and this room was shielded by impenetrable walls, nothing can penetrate these walls, not even spiritual communication (stay focused, it's not a matter if such a wall can be fabricated, we can do it as a thought experiment), sub atomic particles or anything you could think of or anything you can't think of.

You are in this room, and we ask you if you can still feel your religious connections, or do you feel disconnected from this source?
would you feel empty?

what would happen??
God and Jesus can not be reached, the connection has been severed.

Even Largo would be in peril, his mind all alone, separated from the vast nothingness that he has been connecting to.

Nothing would change for me, that's my answer.

I don't think anything would change for me either, as I believe God dwells in us (2nd Timothy 1:14).

Saw on the news just yesterday that the Catholic Church and the Pope are lightening up on their negative views towards Gays/Lesbians/TG people...

How did that come about when we all know that a woman and man are the only acceptable combination???...

Did GOD all of a sudden change his mind and decide that he was wrong???...

I believe that the Bible speaks for God, not someone in a man made building. The Bible does teach love, over and over and over again. (Romans 12:9)

thebravecowboy

climber

The Good Places

Apr 9, 2016 - 11:59am PT

cool climbing thread

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 9, 2016 - 12:56pm PT

God dwells within us, yet is separate somehow?

Like a virus?

is there anyway to rid god out one's self?
To be independent of God?

or is this common place?

what about bacteria, does God dwell in them?
Rocks? yes or no?

I say no for rocks, but I do want to hear what a Christian would say.
Maybe the bible has a No. I can refer to.

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Apr 9, 2016 - 01:09pm PT

while 'Science' says he looked like your cab driver:

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Apr 9, 2016 - 01:52pm PT

I just find it interesting how the talk is changing and how it appears to be way more of a political move than one of actually caring...

Yes. we're watching the evolution of man defining God's law. There are atleast 12 crooked branches from the original root. The pope was germinated by the Papal States after they kicked Caesar out some 450yrs after Jesus and Peter were already in Heaven.

Protestants tend to deny that Peter and those claimed to be his immediate successors had universally recognized supreme authority over all the early churches. The same Protestants said that Rome's prominence may be seen as only moral, not ecclesiastical, and that emergence of the Roman pontiff to supreme power and prominence happened by natural circumstance rather than divine appointment.[8]

Man's been bickering his way is better, well for forever. i'm just say'in i don't see the need to reach through the thorns to get to the fruit..

We are just carnivorous animals though, not far off from a Pig, or Monkey. Only, we're doomed to sit around in our flip flops debating decency.

Fritz

Trad climber

Choss Creek, ID

Apr 9, 2016 - 07:47pm PT

Limpingcrab! Re your recent posts defending your bible as all truth with no contradictions:

I believe that there are not any contradictions, but that it is easy to take certain verses and make it appear that there are. There is tons of literature on this, from both sides, and when compared side by side I have never come across a contradiction. I have spent hours and hours and hours looking into this, and I don't claim to have all of the explanations memorized. Sorry, but I don't have the time to go through my books and the internet resources explaining every single point. It would just turn into a googling war.

I'll just address your first one, as an example.

Why does the Old Testament teach that there is no hell, while the New Testament teaches that there is? The idea of "progressive revelation" does not explain the conflicts in the biblical texts
The old testament talk about death, eternal darkness, the pit, and other descriptions that are not directly translated to hell (Daniel 12:2). It also talk about how God will have his day when there will be judgement, and then that judgement is described in the new Testament and the word hell appears. I don't see this to be a contradiction in any way. Not specifically describing hell in the Old Testament is not the same as saying there is no hell. Unless someone wants to read it that way so they can claim there are contradictions.

I do believe that the Bible is a living text, and while I don't think any words are there due to error, I do concede that there are a variety of ways to interpret parts of it. When there are several choices, you can try to interpret it in a way that contradicts other parts of the Bible, or you can interpret it in way that are in harmony with all of the teachings.

Basically, if you want to, you can force contradictions into the Bible, but I believe that it is obvious that there aren't any.

I wish I still had this old PhD thesis, written by a secular person studying literature, that looked analyzed the whole Bible and found that there weren't any contradictions.

I appreciate your strong beliefs have to include all of your bible being true & accurate.

And I appreciate you feel a special love from your god

And, I won't add any of the many horrible history stories about folks that felt they had a special love from their god.

climbski2

Mountain climber

Anchorage AK, Reno NV

Apr 9, 2016 - 07:53pm PT

No contradictions? Read the begats in the new testament. Who was Josephs father?

What were Jesus's last words.

Incest is wrong? who was cains wife?

zBrown

Ice climber

Apr 9, 2016 - 08:02pm PT

OK.

Hey Christian, got any spare change?

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber

Apr 9, 2016 - 08:10pm PT

Nice to see the many post-christianity sentiments since this is America not Ethiopia and since this is the 21st century not the 11th.

Yes, we are still in something of a pre-copernican phase when it comes to belief / belief systems. But since I see so much rapid change and growth in the world just about every day now on this and related subjects it is hard to complain.

So thank atheist-god for the internet, for the information age, for youtube! (Not to mention science and education.)

PS

Obviously Limpingcrab and blublckr, as two examples, are holdbacks. As such, as you know, they have existed in every social movement since the human ape first banded together thousands of years ago.

I look forward to the revolution. It will be yet another marvelous step up in human civilization and I expect it to be grand - bringing with it exciting new levels of awareness, opportunity, empowerment, etc., personal and social and worldwide.

A watched pot never boils.

7SacredPools

Trad climber

Ontario, Canada

Apr 9, 2016 - 08:20pm PT

Since God (ever merciful) killed everyone except for one family in the great flood, where did all of the different kinds of people come from? Did Noah have Australian aborigines on board? Did he drop them off along with the kangaroos and platypuses as the water receded?

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber

Apr 9, 2016 - 08:28pm PT

"at the birth of the sun and of his brother the moon, their mother died. So the sun gave to the earth her body, from which was to spring all life. And he drew forth from her breast the stars, and the stars he threw into the night sky to remind him of her soul."

But who impregnated the mother? Why did the mother die? Who was the earth, a cousin? a stranger? How would the sun draw forth stars from a mother's breast?

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Apr 9, 2016 - 08:29pm PT

Obviously Limpingcrab and blublckr are holdbacks. As you already know, I'm sure, hey've existed in every social movement since the human ape first banded together thousands of years ago.

HaHaHaHAHA!

Fruity your too funny!! stay scientific here, seriously, your the holdback to the ape age! Think about it, we didn't come till after, what did you say 125,000yrs, 1,000,000yrs after man appeared??

But don't get ill. Christianity only wants back what was first stolen.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber

Apr 9, 2016 - 08:35pm PT

Don't be disgruntled over the scientists telling you you have no free will... You really can choose... -Blublcr

As usual you epitomize the ongoing ignorance.** (And as usual gleefully it seems).

It is not either-or, it is both. It is simply ignorance to not grasp (to not understand) that a fully caused, fully automatous system - whether machine to computer program to honeybee to human - can still "choose" from choicepoints - the choicepoints intrinsic to a system based on system design, system state and input (eg, experience).

But Blu don't let science and the facts get in the way of your ability and FREEDOM to post.

**Ignorance. Not to be confused with stupidity.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Apr 9, 2016 - 08:45pm PT

It is not either-or, it is both. It is simply ignorance to not grasp (to not understand) that a fully caused, fully autonomous system - whether machine to computer program to honeybee to human - can still "choose" from choicepoints - the choicepoints intrinsic to a system based on system design, system state and input (eg, experience).

Obiviouly i'm not speaking much of the brain controlling lung functioning. i speak primarily of the mind that tempts heartbeat.

keep trying tho..;)

Gary

Social climber

Where in the hell is Major Kong?

Apr 9, 2016 - 09:26pm PT

Before the Gods, came the Titans.

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2016 - 09:48pm PT

say no for rocks, but I do want to hear what a Christian would say.
Maybe the bible has a No. I can refer to.

I don't think so because God made Mankind in his image, put us above animals, made no restrictions about killing animals, and let us eat them (Genesis). To me, I think we are unique in having souls and having relationships with Jesus.

No contradictions? Read the begats in the new testament. Who was Josephs father?

What were Jesus's last words.

Incest is wrong? who was cains wife?

Sorry, this week is not as slow as last week for me, and as I mentioned before we could go back and forth on "contradictions" until the cows come home. I'll address the one you said first just for an example, but we could do this forever.

The book of Matthew traces the lineage of Jesus to David through the legal route, through Joseph and Joseph's father. The book of Luke traces Jesus' lineage to David via the biological route, through Joseph's father in law (there was no word for father in law in the original language). Either way, Jesus was a descendant of David, as the Old Testament predicted. These genealogies were recorded as would be expected in the time and culture in which they were written.

Please keep in mind that most of the so called contradictions are compiled from people reading verse by verse looking for something. I believe that when the Bible is studied, rather than scanned, and the history is understood, the contradictions drop one by one. I have probably researched hundreds and have noticed this pattern.

It's easy enough to compare the skeptic lists to the knowledge of biblical scholars, linguists and historians now that we have the internet.

Sorry I'm not continuing, I'm rather tired and have gone over quite a few of these on this thread, I don't mean to brush off your question. If there is one big one you would really like to know my beliefs about, please let me know and I'll respond when I get back to this another day.

I'll restate that I am convinced there are no contradictions. I've looked for years.

OK.

Hey Christian, got any spare change?

Lots.

I believe this is explained in the story of the Tower of Babel (Genesis 11:1-9). It doesn't give a time frame for how long this took, from what I can tell.

Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber

moving thru

Apr 9, 2016 - 10:30pm PT

Largo on your 4/8 post....it is a fascination well worth pursuing.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Apr 9, 2016 - 10:53pm PT

Thanks, ingcrab.

It can feel like every corner has a whore with a different trick.

Ewww. ^that sounds soo OT(old testament, not off topic).

i think it may be to difficult/impossible for some organism's to perceive/conceive free-will? Does a Crocodile ever move to Florida just because the weather is good, or the taxes are better? No.

How long wil it take to teach the Monkey the earth is round?

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Apr 10, 2016 - 06:05am PT

go home blue, you are drunk.

athiests have free-will: not believe in space god/son/holy spirit voodoo used to wage wars, political agendas, subjugate women, minorities, etc.

that's another thing, when I grew up in the church in 80s, in PA, christians weren't allowed to drink, gamble, or even dance. but since moving to the west, I've noticed christians are allowed to do all 3. pre-marital sex even seems to be tolerated. what is next, the gays?!

maybe it is time for re-branding, since all denominations are shrinking quickly

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/05/12/christians-drop-nones-soar-in-new-religion-portrait/27159533/

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Apr 10, 2016 - 08:02am PT

Is there any connection between the Roman creation myth and the birth of Jesus?

Romulus and Reamus were conceived in a human woman by a god. (Mars)

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 10, 2016 - 08:27am PT

I talked to my friends at Cal Tech about the spiritual impenetrable walls and we came up with something that would work.

We would have a cloud of high temperature plasma surrounding the room that is contained by super conducting magnets.

It would be like sitting at the center of the Sun, but without the crushing gravity.

Nothing can get in or out.

How about now?
You would be cut off from God's energy.
You would be completely alone.

Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber

Out Of Bed

Apr 10, 2016 - 08:49am PT

I don't dare ask

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 10, 2016 - 12:26pm PT

At Cal Tech, amongst our group of particle scientists, there was a lone voice that said it would never work without his ultimate isolation backup system.
We all laughed when he revealed his proposal,
but now, after so much denial that the main system won't work,
we will have to add the final ultimate wall against all or any possible energy transfer;
We will now submerge the plasma surrounded room in a tank that contains
Sharks with laser beams attached to their heads

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 10, 2016 - 02:29pm PT

I fixed it

"Sharks with Laser beams attached to their heads"

Keeps all God like spirits out of tank containing them.

Contractor

Boulder climber

Apr 10, 2016 - 04:49pm PT

http://www.forbes.com/sites/anthonynitti/2016/04/10/atheist-group-renews-fight-to-eliminate-700-million-tax-benefit-for-ministers-of-the-gospel/#1a20be002d7b

A bit off topic but I think this suit has merit- do you?

StahlBro

Trad climber

San Diego, CA

Apr 10, 2016 - 07:13pm PT

Thanks LC. So an omnicient, omnipotent being created us for his own pleasure? And required us to worship him and his half human son to get into paradise?

Norton

Social climber

Apr 10, 2016 - 07:23pm PT

Thanks LC. So an omnicient, omnipotent being created us for his own pleasure? And required us to worship him and his half human son to get into paradise?

not only that, but then this Etherial Spirit orders us humans to murder, rape, and enslave each other in word of god, the Bible

why? don't know, perhaps for his amusement hanging out in space, bored and all

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Apr 10, 2016 - 07:41pm PT

A bit off topic but I think this suit has merit- do you?

I've found it amusing that the Republicans putting money in the collection plate are happily tax cheats to fund a retirement lifestyle for pastors and missionaries. There are good pastors and missionaries whoa re trying to help people, but many are snakeoil salesmen and parasites on society.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Apr 10, 2016 - 09:08pm PT

Missionaries are presumtuous beyond all measure. They have been responsible for untold human misery down thru the ages.

Pea-dub

Ice climber

sun diego

Apr 11, 2016 - 10:26am PT

Jim was it the Canadian government or Catholics or Protestants Presbyterians Or Baptist Who did this.just asking.
Sounds like you should lay your blame some where else.
It seems the government would only have that power to go in and take children from there home. I may be wrong.?
I believe the Catholic Church does not represent Jesus and his teachings properly.I've met a few Christian Catholics no Catholic Christians.The Catholic Church and many (but not all) of there clergy stand between the people of the world and Jesus. The go between never letting people have a real relationship with Jesus For them selves.
Jim if someone raped 30 boys and girls and whispered your name in there ear.!!????
I think you are judging this story incorrectly.

Craig Jesus lives in my heart
No separation no isolation from Jesus.
He says he's with me even unto the end of the age.
My .02

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 11, 2016 - 10:58am PT

What if we took out your heart?

What will you feel then, No God/Jesus?

What about people with electronic Hearts, are they not able to love?

Very confusing, heart, mind, foot.

What if we put your heart on one side of the planet, and your mind on the other side of the planet... oh just forget about it, I can see this isn't going anywhere.

Pea-dub

Ice climber

sun diego

Apr 11, 2016 - 12:07pm PT

You open the door for me I wasn't going to go down this path. Actually that happened to me.
1960 I'm in a military base day care.My Dad worked on the missile sights in Roswell.
I'm 2 1/2 years old.
They tell my parents I have
epilepsy and want to help.
4 months of time there.
6-7 months of drugs. They ( helped) after I was no longer at the day care.
I would never be the same( not that you want to be a 2 1/2 years old ).
Drugs electric, shock,isolation chamber(floating in salt water
body temperature no sounds complete darkness. Add some drugs once in awhile for long periods of time.
Google MKultra or project paperclip do a little reading.
They sliced my personality heart- mind- spirit into many pieces.(Usable Pieces).
I have been wrestling with God
A lot over this.
Many troubles in this world

Ha light and darkness living in side me together.
I am slowly getting back memories.58 in July.
What I'm really noticing I never left that place.
I have always had a future scenario taking place in my mind of anticipating the future.Now I realise I was doing that when I was 2 1/2.
Anticipating what would happen that morning.
I can't control that it's another part of me separate
Goes on all the time in my head.
God bless Craig.
Jesus is my only hope
Real Christian
A changed Heart mind spirit.
conformed to the image of Christ.
Loving your neighbor as yourself.
loving God with all your heart strength and mind, spirit.
Many things happen in God's name.Not all are God's will.
His purposes are accomplish.
People have to respond many don't.Many people go to church on Sunday not many go home and respond, tearing there shirt and crying out for mercy.
Most are taught pray this prayer. You are good to go.
I don't believe that.
You can't earn it. But you do have to live it out.

The ice is forming on Cowles mt. 😊
I thought ice climber in San Diego would bring a laugh to someone.
the question was favorite climbing activity not what you were good at..
Appreciate your prayers my brothers and sisters.
Paul
No one knows me here.

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2016 - 02:25pm PT

Daaaang, this thread is still going!? I thought people would run out of questions before it got to 100.

Is there any connection between the Roman creation myth and the birth of Jesus?

Romulus and Reamus were conceived in a human woman by a god. (Mars)

I've read about many claims that the Story of Jesus was a knock off from other religions. I don't claim to be an expert on the topic, but they seem to be similar only in passing. All of them that I've read about were old myths, with uncertain origins or dates, not claiming to be real people and often not even known in Israel at the time. Well, Alexander the Great was a real person with an alleged God as his father, but that wasn't written until after Jesus.

Seems like a complicated issue and not really about my faith, so I don't know. I have my opinions about politics, but in the end the government can tax whatever it wants and I don't believe it will change what Jesus taught. After all, give to Caeser what is Caesers (Mark 12:17).

Thanks LC. So an omnicient, omnipotent being created us for his own pleasure? And required us to worship him and his half human son to get into paradise?

I believe He created us to enjoy a relationship with him and we are free to reject it and spend eternity away from Him (John 12:48, 3:18-19).

If you have a question about a specific topic I'd love to talk about it, but I'm not sure where you're getting this from. As discussed earlier, I believe God used a group of people to carry out his judgement against a disgusting society (though this use did not involve everything you're mentioning), just as he used a flood before. Basically, I don't condone kidnap simply because I approve of police officers taking cereal killers and putting them in jail.

There was a blight on the Earth in British Columbia that took first nation children from their parents and institutionalized them into what were called Residential Schools.

The purpose of the Residential Schools was to inculcate Christian culture and conformity to people thought of as Savages. There were many instances of sexual, physical and mental abuse brought upon the children sent to what were boarding schools, away from their family and culture at the hands of Protestant, Catholic and Anglican clergy and laypersons.

I'm really sick of the, "It was flawed people, not belief in Jesus that caused all the trouble" fig leaf worn by modern apologists of faith concerning this holocaust in the name of God.

The Residential Schools were at heart, set up to, "Beat the Savage out of the Indian".

Would any of the recently enlightened from the past, New Age Christians who just love Jesus for his own sake, like to comment ?

As I've said before, I believe some people to terrible things and use Jesus as an excuse, though I do not think this is what Jesus taught (Luke 6:28). Though I'm not offended in any way, sometimes these comments remind me of someone asking a sugar cane farmer why they're so racist and love slavery, or asking an African American why "they" like to join gangs and shoot people, or asking an evolutionary biology why they promote eugenics. I encourage anyone who look at the thousands and thousands of Christians giving medical care, building homes, running food banks, or giving out donations, all for free, for every one person abducting children or killing people in the name of Jesus.

Norton

Social climber

Apr 11, 2016 - 02:41pm PT

Limpingcrab, thank you for starting this Ask a Christian thread.

Would you or anyone else be offended if I started an Ask an Atheist thread?

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2016 - 02:44pm PT

Limpingcrab, thank you for starting this Ask a Christian thread.

Would you or anyone else be offended if I started an Ask an Atheist thread?

Lol, I wouldn't, but I bet there are people who think this thread is already one more unnecessary OT threads.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Apr 11, 2016 - 03:00pm PT

Paul
No one knows me here.

think we know quite a bit now.

ThankYou and Bless You

sempervirens

climber

Apr 11, 2016 - 04:20pm PT

As I've said before, I believe some people do terrible things and use Jesus as an excuse,

Perhaps that's why humans invented religion in the first place, so we can do terrible things with an all-purpose universal excuse. Maybe God made us, but we made religion.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Apr 11, 2016 - 06:49pm PT

Funny....the Earth is 4.6 billion years, the dinosaurs ruled supreme for 160 million years without being under the dominium of man (y'all have read Genesis) Christianity is 2,000 years old....do the math.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber

Apr 11, 2016 - 07:05pm PT

C'mon Donini, you haven't been keeping up?

This is the 21st century now. Christianity is no longer about claims to truth or to history; it is no longer about how the world works or how life works. Now it is about... community, social togetherness... now it is about... closing the Good Book and just... "sitting in the wind" and "not being (so) concerned about interpretations" or being "right" about miracles. You didn't know?

Evolution? Who cares?
Science? Meh.

.....

"Imagine Christianity with NO doctrine and no beliefs, just a practice..."

Uh-huh.

SteveW

Trad climber

The state of confusion

Apr 11, 2016 - 07:16pm PT

Why?

WBraun

climber

Apr 11, 2016 - 07:23pm PT

Christianity is as old as the beginning of the universe.

The gross materialists and the atheists are always completely and absolutely clueless .....

StahlBro

Trad climber

San Diego, CA

Apr 11, 2016 - 07:28pm PT

What if everyone loved God? Wouldn't that be boring for him/her? What would be the point?

Anthropomorphizing is fine as long as you don't take it too literally...like the Bible.

WBraun

climber

Apr 11, 2016 - 07:33pm PT

The atheist always says there is no God.

Then immediately the atheist tells you how you should be, act, and do what he says all while imitating God.

The atheist then imediately tells you how God is while simultaneously saying there is no God

Such stupid hypocrites ....

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Apr 11, 2016 - 07:38pm PT

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 11, 2016 - 07:43pm PT

No one wants to ask an atheist,
because every Christian/ mainstream Religion believer already knows that their every religious delusion will be questioned and all irrational faith will shot down with calm rational answers based on reality and logic.

Which unfortunately, ends up with them denying any conflicting ideas with every molecule of faith they need to cling to.

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 11, 2016 - 07:51pm PT

"Imagine Christianity with NO doctrine and no beliefs, just a practice..."

Good call on this
How profound!
Very impressive.
Value?

StahlBro

Trad climber

San Diego, CA

Apr 11, 2016 - 08:01pm PT

I have no problem with the concept of God. I have a problem with people telling me they know what God wants from me. No one can know that but me. It does not matter how many Bible verses you quote. Saying Jesus is the only path to God is flat out wrong.

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2016 - 08:34pm PT

Another question I have for the Christians who define themselves as followers of Jesus only, is do you also attend a church that follows a mainstream religion version of Christianity ?

I attend a church that teaches about what the Bible says, I'm not sure how that categorizes it. I started going there after our house burned down and they did a fundraiser for my family.

Why?

Because?

What if everyone loved God? Wouldn't that be boring for him/her? What would be the point?

Anthropomorphizing is fine as long as you don't take it too literally...like the Bible.

I believe God would love that (1st commandment)

Pea-dub

Ice climber

sun diego

Apr 12, 2016 - 12:12am PT

Thanks Blue,
Jim back in 2000 something, I watched a movie Rabbit proof fence I'm sure it was the same type of situation In Australia
as Canada.sucks big-time.
I apologize to any Christian Catholics here for my next statements,, men are pretty fallible I know I am, it's what I believe.
The Catholic church believes
that salvation comes only thru them. No one outside the church is saved. Only a priest can forgive your sins.
You use to be able to pay and get your relatives out of purgatory. Full service religion. Not....
Have you ever looked at all the torture devices thy used on people back a few hundred years.
Not Christian in my view.

I guess I have my own issues also.
When I was no longer in the daycare ( see past post )
They sent me with my parents to Albuquerque to a Catholic hospital for EEG final check.
Ha they shocked the crap out of me. Priest and nun there also they gave me wafer and wine before. I'm guessing they wanted to bury all the stuff they did to me.

I'm guessing a lot of people won't believe me. It's the truth. Many would rather believe a lie.
God's blessings to all.

Jim what's your definition of a Christian.

Curt

climber

Gold Canyon, AZ

Apr 12, 2016 - 12:21am PT

The atheist always says there is no God.

And they may or may not be right.

Then immediately the atheist tells you how you should be, act, and do what he says all while imitating God.

The atheist then imediately tells you how God is while simultaneously saying there is no God.

No. How people should treat one another simply does not require God. There is no hypocrisy--God is superfluous.

Curt

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Apr 12, 2016 - 05:09am PT

I believe God would love that (1st commandment)

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber

San Francisco

Apr 12, 2016 - 10:42am PT

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Very interesting segment.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber

Apr 12, 2016 - 10:51am PT

Careful Vitaliy, you might get sucked in.

Shiho

Trad climber

Salt Lake City

Apr 12, 2016 - 12:20pm PT

Have you read any books that have different perspectives from yours in terms of religion such as books by Karen Armstrong ('A history of God' is fascinating!), Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris or Richard Darwin? If you have, what did you think of it/them? If not, why not?

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 12, 2016 - 12:57pm PT

Shiho
Who are you asking?

Many of us have read these books, and found them good reads.

Look what mother nature created!!

Shiho

Trad climber

Salt Lake City

Apr 12, 2016 - 01:12pm PT

I am asking limpingcrab, of course! I know a lot of you guys have read those books. As a matter of fact, I found out about Karen Armstrong somewhere on ST :)

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Apr 12, 2016 - 01:18pm PT

I've read several of those books and they have been well written and well reasoned. Best of all....none of them have passages condoning rape, slavery or fratricide.

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2016 - 03:34pm PT

Intelligent design, because creating whales with legs is just common sense

Just a heads up, Patrick, that's kind of a silly meme. Those bones are the whale's baculum, most mammals have an actual bone in their penis, even though we call ours the boner :)

I have nothing against the evolution of species and believe it is necessary for their survival. If we never had errors in our genetics we could not adapt to a changing planet, even though they sometimes cause disease.

Honestly, I have not read all the way through any of those books, and that's true for books on both sides of these topics. Instead, because I'm a nerd, I read about a topic and then look at primary sources and related chapters in books. I have compared the Bible to the Qur'an, book of Mormon, and other philosophies. I have also read many journal articles and book chapters about topics in evolution and abiogenesis. I research things for fun for some reason (i.e. I read an entire Geology of the Sierra Nevada textbook last summer before a backpack trip so I could know about the rocks I saw).

If you're wondering, I don't have a problem with young earth, old earth, the history of evolution or many other topics. I have learned a lot but as most people realize when they study, it's only exposed how much I (we as people) don't know.

Not sure if that answered your question, but in short I think I have looked pretty thoroughly into both sides, as I hope everyone does. If there's a specific topic from something you've read and you'd like to know my take on it I'd be happy to give "my" answer.

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 12, 2016 - 03:48pm PT

Are you a better Christian if you accept evolution?
or a bad one, because the bible says The Universe was created in 6 Days?

Do you really accept evolution, or do you believe that God guided it along for 13.5 billion years to us here today, as in Intelligent design?

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2016 - 04:09pm PT

I don't know. I believe that a creator was necessary for life to start. Beyond that I have read convincing arguments from many perspectives.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber

Apr 12, 2016 - 04:17pm PT

The only mysteries here, LC, is (1) why you are not living up to your science education as you found it in your science textbooks and college classes and (2) why you are not living up to your century (it's the 21st c as you know, not your great grandpa's x30, iow the 13th).

Despite the fact that your theistic worldview is popular with the uneducated masses...

Why not require of yourself more as a 21st century earth citizen?

Whether you recognize them or not, they are values... living up to your century and living up to your science education. They are values among increasing millions. And their prevalence and strength are growing. You ought to take part, it feels pretty good.

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2016 - 04:43pm PT

I do not believe that science, or productive thinking in general, and a faith in Jesus need to be seen as opposing forces. After all, 90% of Nobel laureates in the 21st century held spiritual beliefs.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0149989

nobelist.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/50-nobelists.pdf

I can't get that to be clickable so you'll have to copy/paste if you want to see it.

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Apr 13, 2016 - 05:14am PT

Whales had legs, cuz evil satan science says so

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/09/080911-whale-legs.html

So, how old is the Earth? did god plant dinosaur bones to test your faith?

Also, is there anything you don't have pat 'cuz jesus' answer for?

any mysteries that keep you up at night that aren't solved by your interpretation of the good book via the GAY King James and his furiously copying monk boyfriends (all the direct word of Yaweh, of course)?

http://etb-history-theology.blogspot.com/2012/03/king-james-was-gay.html

[url="http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_relationships_of_James_VI_and_I"]http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_relationships_of_James_VI_and_I[/url]

do Jews go to hell?

Shiho

Trad climber

Salt Lake City

Apr 13, 2016 - 09:11am PT

I didn't see any indication in the first article that 90% of Nobel laureates in the 21st century held spiritual beliefs. Did I miss it? The second link didn't work for me at all.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Apr 13, 2016 - 10:27am PT

These threads are absolutely useless. No one is going to have the slightest impact on a "faith based" persons beliefs no matter what arguments they use. Conversely, arguments based on faith will have absolutely zero impact on a person without faith.

Curt

climber

Gold Canyon, AZ

Apr 13, 2016 - 10:36am PT

Holding "spiritual beliefs" is far, far removed from believing in Christianity or any other organized religion. Furthermore, even the article you cite above states the following in its introduction:

"There is mounting evidence, both correlational and causal, which demonstrates that analytic thinking (as measured by tests of intelligence and critical thinking) discourages the acceptance of religious and spiritual beliefs [1–7]." In other words, there exists a measurable negative correlation between IQ and religious belief.

Curt

Shiho

Trad climber

Salt Lake City

Apr 13, 2016 - 11:02am PT

Do you believe that Jews, Christians, and Muslims believe in the same God? If so, why the differences in their believes? If not, why not? (If you have already answered the question, I apologize. I didn't read the whole 700+ posts.)

I agree with you. I am just curious to see how this seemingly intelligent guy came to the conclusion that is the complete opposite of mine.

JEleazarian

Trad climber

Fresno CA

Apr 13, 2016 - 11:59am PT

Despite the fact that your theistic worldview is popular with the uneducated masses...

I second LC's point that science and Christianity can coexist in harmony. In addition to LC and Micronut, among others in my part of the world, I have too many personal counterexamples in my own family. I have three male first cousins on my mother's side. Two have Ph.D.'s in physics, and one in molecular biology. (I was the obvious failure child here. As one of my late mother's friends put it after meeting my sister (also an attorney) and me, "They're smart. They could have been engineers.") The physicists are retired profs (one from Lyons, one from the French University in Beirut), the other just recently retired as head of pharmaceutical research for Church & Dwight in Canada. All are strong evangelical Christians.

All of this is beside the point. The popular arguments these days have an unfortunate tendency to regress into appeals to authority, i.e. X% of scientists believe proposition Y. Sorry, folks, but that simply gives "political science" a new meaning. Logic doesn't care what any particular authority or group of authorities believe. Since the arguments against Christianity given here purport to be logical, you need at least to keep obvious logical fallacies out of the argument.

John

Fritz

Trad climber

Choss Creek, ID

Apr 13, 2016 - 12:05pm PT

Donini! Re your assertion:

Not quite so!

Limping Crab & his sycophants most likely feel much better about themselves & their standing with Jesus, after verbally tussling with us heathens.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber

Apr 13, 2016 - 12:59pm PT

Note John E is confusing...

a) compatibility and compartmentalization.
b) compatible and compartmentalized

They are distinct.

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 13, 2016 - 01:24pm PT

Why do smart people believe stupid things?
Cognitive bias/confirmation

[Click to View YouTube Video]

JEleazarian

Trad climber

Fresno CA

Apr 13, 2016 - 01:24pm PT

Fair point, HFCS, but that wasn't where I was heading with my argument. Obviously, to prove compatibility requires much more time and space than anyone would want to read here - and particularly so if I wrote it. I was simply offering specific examples of those who saw no incompatibility to demonstrate that those individuals exist.

My main thrust was to try to get away from those sorts of arguments, and get down to specific points that people either find troubling or would like LC to expand upon. The [choose one] "[_] No one I respect or [_] Everyone I respect believes this" is not a logical argument.

John

John M

climber

Apr 13, 2016 - 02:05pm PT

Limping Crab & his sycophants most likely feel much better about themselves & their standing with Jesus, after verbally tussling with us heathens.

sycophants? huh...thats pretty weird since their is nothing to gain by agreeing with LC. And since I definitely disagreed with him. Why do you resort to generalizations? And why the need to insult? LC is just trying to answer peoples questions. I see nothing in what he is doing to try and convince anyone of anything. He is just giving his point of view as it is obvious to those who believe that there is a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding out there. I generally consider you to be a reasonable person Fritz, but when it comes to religious beliefs or a belief in God, people seem to get bent. Though I do understand part of where it comes from, since most non believers have been faced with believers who seem to condemn them. Even as a believer I have been condemned by other believers for not believing the way that they do. Though that is not the case from LC.

Hopefully this thread will help people see that there is a wide range of beliefs, and even among believers, there is disagreement, but that this doesn't mean we have to hate on each other. Either side of that equation is not good. Whether it be a believer condemning a person for their non belief, or a non believer hating on a person for their belief.

Fritz

Trad climber

Choss Creek, ID

Apr 13, 2016 - 04:15pm PT

John M. I am truly sorry that you found my most recent post objectionalble, since I respect your usually mellow opinions. I have to admit to thinking about what might have annoyed you enough that you think you need to chide me for my bad attitude.

Perhaps we have different definitions of the noun sycophant? My normal short definitions are "brown-noiser" or "suck-up." However I have no problem with Dictionary.com's definition: "a self-seeking, servile flatterer.

Cheer up! I will be punished in hell for all eternity for my lack of belief and bad attitude.

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 13, 2016 - 04:18pm PT

So, how old is the Earth? did god plant dinosaur bones to test your faith?

Also, is there anything you don't have pat 'cuz jesus' answer for?

any mysteries that keep you up at night that aren't solved by your interpretation of the good book via the GAY King James and his furiously copying monk boyfriends (all the direct word of Yaweh, of course)?

http://etb-history-theology.blogspot.com/2012/03/king-james-was-gay.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_relationships_of_James_VI_and_I" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_relationships_of_James_VI_and_I

do Jews go to hell?

-I don't know.
-I try to base my beliefs about topics addressed in the Bible on what Jesus taught, so I hope not! As long as questions are about that stuff, then Jesus is who I refer to.
-Not that I can think of. Maybe, will I get to snowboard in heaven?
-I believe that depends on the Jew as faith in Jesus and God is personal (Romans 10:9)

I didn't see any indication in the first article that 90% of Nobel laureates in the 21st century held spiritual beliefs. Did I miss it? The second link didn't work for me at all.

The first article was just about how using those different part of your brain can be beneficial, and the second link was the list. Once you copy and paste it it automatically downloads to your computer so I'm not sure where it would end up for you. Not that I think either one of those are particularly important, I was just responding with my beliefs about the notion that faith and science are mutually exclusive.

In a way, yes. They all believe in the God of the Old Testament, but Jews believe that Jesus was either a false Messiah or perhaps a prophet (they don't think he fulfilled the prophesies of the Old Testament), and Muslims Believe Jesus was a prophet (but they believe most writings were tampered with so they defer to Muhammad's Quran). Christians believe that Jesus was God incarnate, so they are the only ones who believe in that aspect of God, and I believe it was that action that offered freedom from and forgiveness for sin (Galatians 5:13, John 8:38).

Why do smart people believe stupid things?
Cognitive bias/confirmation

No argument here.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Apr 13, 2016 - 04:19pm PT

Fritz you will be happy to know that the new hell uses the eternal flames to heat the saunas and the hot tubs and that the house red is rather good.

John M

climber

Apr 13, 2016 - 04:25pm PT

Hey Fritz, I guess I just don't see who I am sucking up to nor any benefit of sucking up. Plus sucking up has always had a bad connotation to me.

Cheer up! I will be punished in hell for all eternity for my lack of belief and bad attitude.

cool.. or maybe HOT !!!.. :-) even though I don't believe in an eternal hell and still consider myself a Christian.
...

Jim..

So thaaats where hot springs come from. woot for natural hot springs. LOL.. love me some hot springs.

Norton

Social climber

Apr 13, 2016 - 04:34pm PT

Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

either the bible IS the direct word of god or it is not, either some portions were and some portions were not, being clearly the writings of men of that era

so which is it, what do you personally believe, limpingcrap?

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 13, 2016 - 05:23pm PT

One question if you would, limpingcrab

Do you agree that portions of the bible were indeed written by men, their thoughts, their words?

I believe you know those passages i am referring to, the horrible ones where humans are commanded to enslave, rape, and murder each other

just one, of many, examples to refresh your memory

Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

"As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you."

either the bible IS the direct word of god or it is not, either some portions were and some portions were not, being clearly the writings of men of that era

so which is it, what do you personally believe, limpingcrap?

I understand how passages like that are tough to read, for Christians as well, but I believe that they are also the word of God.

First, I don't believe that because it happened in the Bible it is God's will for every age and every culture, and I also believe that context is very important. That is why I was having trouble knowing exactly what you were alluding to before.

At this time, God was using Israelites to punish people who had rejected him and who were practicing many disgusting things, like human sacrifice, without remorse. They had over 400 years of warnings. This was both a punishment and to protect others from being influenced, in a similar fashion as the flood.

The first part shows that God still loved them and would rather have them surrender than die. If they surrendered, they would survive, despite their continued sinfulness and warnings. As slaves they were afforded rights, protection, time to mourn, and their identity as a human (exodus 21:11, Deuteronomy 21:14). This was a far cry from the standard military procedure at that time, and would have been considered an unbelievable grace. Reading the book of Deuteronomy today is a very foreign experience, but at the time it was revolutionary in its teachings of humanitarianism compared to what was going on all around Israel. For example, there were no other cultures that considered sexual exploitation of captives as rape, besides Israel.

As it says, if they did not surrender the men would be killed, but all others kept, and protected, as if they surrendered.

In essence, I believe God does judge and He does punish severely, but he would rather not. I believe that God has influence on when anyone's life ends, whether today in a car crash or in 50 years, and if He chooses sooner rather than later I do not believe it is murder.

This story may still be hard to read, as most of us would not enjoy war in ancient times, but I believe it is what happened and it was directed by God. After all, the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). I am glad he suffered the punishment himself and gave us the gift of a clean conscience and a relationship with Him, should we choose to simply accept it (John 3:16).

Contractor

Boulder climber

Apr 13, 2016 - 06:41pm PT

Ok, so now I get it!

According to conservative Christians:

The Bible is a living document to be interpreted through Neo Christian values by biblical scholars and disseminated for mass consumption by the flock and Heretics alike.

Judicial interpretation of the Constitution is dangerous and our laws are based on strict constructionism- period.

I'm not saying your conservative Limpcrab but this is what Agnostics and atheist are confronted with. The hypocrisy comes in the form of telling my kids to pray in school and expunging references to evolution in their textbooks- you know, harmless stuff like that...

d-know

Trad climber

electric lady land

Apr 13, 2016 - 06:47pm PT

Lots of his, him, he
going on with the o.p.

Is that the trinity?

Virgin birth?

Immaculate conception?

Why no credit to the mother?

Love and respect.

Norton

Social climber

Apr 13, 2016 - 06:47pm PT

ok limpingcrab,

then I take your answer clearly to state that you believe god commands humans to hold each other as slaves and to rape and murder other humans

and sorry not buying the premise that humans at only two thousand years ago were too stupid to understand or because they simply had to be talked to in the brutal language of that age, instead of god teling them that those are really wrong ways to treat each other and in fact to not do that stuff at all

by refusing, against common sense and reason, to come out and state that it is clear to you that men, men wrote those those sections of the bible really hurts your credibility, your message because it insults even childlike intelligence in addition to showing just how inflexible and rigid your brain operates, So be it.

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 13, 2016 - 07:33pm PT

TT
Not only are you going to hell!
But you will be reborn into a version of your present self at some uber cool eternal campfire, and all your bros are here, and it will go on and on until you go crazy!!
It's HeLLL!!!

or maybe not

you make a good point
invalidates the whole shebang

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Apr 13, 2016 - 08:41pm PT

Must a Jew acknowledge Christ as the Messiah or no heaven, do not pass go? ?????

Sounds judgmental to me IMHO.

and if you are Hitler, Aryan God told you to kill and torture the Jews cuz they killed jesus! .... and they still go to hell!

Fritz

Trad climber

Choss Creek, ID

Apr 13, 2016 - 09:05pm PT

John M. I am a little slow in my response to your 2nd. response, which was:

Apr 13, 2016 - 04:25pm PT
Hey Fritz, I guess I just don't see who I am sucking up to nor any benefit of sucking up. Plus sucking up has always had a bad connotation to me.

I didn't accuse you of sucking up to Limping Crab, but if you feel I did, perhaps you did & have guilt & sin in your heart? Never a problem for a Christian, since they know how to handle that problem.

My original post on the subject was:

Apr 13, 2016 - 12:05pm PT
Donini! Re your assertion:
These threads are absolutely useless. No one is going to have the slightest impact on a "faith based" persons beliefs no matter what arguments they use. Conversely, arguments based on faith will have absolutely zero impact on a person without faith.

Not quite so!

Limping Crab & his sycophants most likely feel much better about themselves & their standing with Jesus, after verbally tussling with us heathens.

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 13, 2016 - 09:30pm PT

Lots of his, him, he
going on with the o.p.

Is that the trinity?

Virgin birth?

Immaculate conception?

Why no credit to the mother?

I just use that word because it's what I'm used to reading in the Bible. I do believe in the Trinity but don't know of a word that combines he/them/it etc... I'd have to cite a ton of verses and I understand that the Trinity is an odd concept. I believe that there is an analogy with time: past, present and future, but only one time. I also believe in the virgin birth (Isaiah 7:14, Luke 1:34) and give as much credit to Mary as I would to anyone who serves God.

Must a Jew acknowledge Christ as the Messiah or no heaven, do not pass go? ?????

I believe Jesus is the only way to God (John 14:6).

John M

climber

Apr 13, 2016 - 09:35pm PT

Limping Crab & his sycophants most likely feel much better about themselves & their standing with Jesus, after verbally tussling with us heathens.

Fritz, I was responding to the above.

your own definition of sycophant.

My normal short definitions are "brown-noiser" or "suck-up."

So who do you define as his sycophants on this thread?

JEleazarian

Trad climber

Fresno CA

Apr 13, 2016 - 11:34pm PT

then I take your answer clearly to state that you believe god commands humans to hold each other as slaves and to rape and murder other humans

Norton, your statement has universal application. God's command did not. The command was directed to a specific group of particularly depraved people at a specific time and place, which is what I understood LC's answer to state. There was nothing that generalized that command, nor that condoned such conduct elsewhere. It would, however, lead one to conclude that the Bible says God takes sin exceedingly seriously -- a theme one cannot miss from Genesis to Revelation.

John

Lorenzo

Trad climber

Portland Oregon

Apr 14, 2016 - 01:42am PT

I found this more amazing from the article:

Zack Houghton is a guy whose first name is Zack and whose last name is Houghton.

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Apr 14, 2016 - 04:39am PT

I believe Jesus is the only way to God (John 14:6)

So the jew God of the Torah is same God as 'old testament god' for modern evangelicals, but they got version .1, new testament is .2 (cuz jesus!).... so wrong version eh? like having to run Windows 8

The question was, is, and continues to be:

do Jews burn in torture for eternity in the lake of fire?

I know HELL is a tough sell these days, but again,

do Jews go to HELL?

12th Century Jew Hell:

Flip Flop

climber

Earth Planet, Universe

Apr 14, 2016 - 06:45am PT

Baby in the corner.

Flip Flop

climber

Earth Planet, Universe

Apr 14, 2016 - 06:51am PT

I know that Poseltyzer was a new word for you. Now that you're getting with the rational mind, I suggest that you look up

Christian Apologist.

It's a thing. It's not really " I'm sorry for the Bible." It's more in-depth philosophically. You have a team. C.S. Lewis, for example. The Apologists aren't as smart as the rationalists but they're definitely smarter than you. You'll never catch us intellectually because we research your best thinkers while you guys keep looking for a glossary in the back of your funny little book-o'-lies.

Contractor

Boulder climber

Apr 14, 2016 - 07:04am PT

A Boston Globe Story about Ted Cruz's Dad, Rafael Cruz.

He and his second wife, an American, eventually moved to Canada, where Ted Cruz was born in 1970. But Rafael Cruz, an alcoholic, abandoned his wife and toddler son and returned to Texas. It was there that he found God, leading him to reconcile with his family in 1975 and bringing them back to the United States.

By the time Ted Cruz was 9, his father was providing heavy doses of conservative Christian politics at the dinner table. By 13, the younger Cruz had memorized the Constitution and through high school toured the state of Texas, delivering speeches on free market economics and the Constitution- Boston Globe

I guess those of us that have led clean productive lives, but have not taken Jesus into our harts, have a one way ticket to hell.

Not so, if your one of the; "fuked, snorted, drank, smoked, cheated, stole everything in sight crowd". We all know these people or have them in our family- after fuking over enough people, they invariably end up as a wimpering, fetal train wreck. Of course it's not long before they are a poster child for the Born Again movement, boasting about their preferred status in the eyes of the lord. And because we can drink, have sex, smoke pot free of guilt, in a responsible manner, they're pissed....real pissed. Then the cycle of perpetual disfunction resets with the hate campaign.

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Apr 14, 2016 - 07:44am PT

. And because we can drink, have sex, smoke pot free of guilt, in a responsible manner, they're pissed....real pissed. Then the cycle of perpetual disfunction resets with the hate campaign

The top right section is probably for the pot smokers.

Wade Icey

Trad climber

www.alohashirtrescue.com

Apr 14, 2016 - 07:57am PT

damn patrick that's an awesome tattoo

Craig Fry

Trad climber

So Cal.

Apr 14, 2016 - 08:24am PT

Fritz

Trad climber

Choss Creek, ID

Apr 14, 2016 - 08:34am PT

John M. Here you go. One Christian expressing heartfelt praise may well be another person's sycophant.

Mar 30, 2016 - 08:09pm PT
Thank you, Daniel.....you are doing well in your informed and kind responses here. Though I find myself at times, terribly unworthy to chime in, the bottom line is its all about the love that God has for all of us.
Thank you once again, Daniel.....you have been a huge blessing to my life, and that of my family. You and your wife, and your act of kindness and obedience to God, changed my daughter's life forever....and subsequently, all of ours. We are forever in your debt.

Mar 31, 2016 - 09:13pm PT
Props to you, Daniel!
You are living up to your namesake.
Don't you just feel like you are in a, Den of Lions?
;-)
I know your name is written in, HIS BOOK.

Mar 31, 2016 - 11:50pm PT
Keep up the great apologetics limpincrab. ST needs it.

Apr 2, 2016 - 09:22am PT
^ Concur.
Daniel has only been sharing his faith and answering questions. It is ludicrous to suggest otherwise. Some people appear unable to read and comprehend.

Apr 2, 2016 - 12:03pm PT
And hopefully one day you will meet some believers who more fully understand what it means that God is Love. Limpingcrab is I believe one of those. Patience and kindness are aspects of Love.

Apr 3, 2016 - 04:01pm PT
What Daniel has done by putting himself 'out there' in this thread, is very simple...he is obeying what is commonly referred to as the "Great Commission"....a calling that Christ implored to his disciples shortly before his ascension into heaven. That commission is simple.....to represent Christ in this world.

Paul Martzen

Trad climber

Fresno

Apr 15, 2016 - 11:12am PT

Here are some questions. Anybody can answer.

In your experience and opinion:

What are the benefits of punishment?

What are the benefits for you:
When you punish?
When you are punished?

What are the benefits for your children:
When you punish them?
When they punish you?

What are the benefits to society:
When society punishes you?
When someone punishes society?
What are the benefits to you when society punishes someone else?

What are the benefits to god when god punishes you?
What are the benefits to you, when god punishes you?

How have you personally decided when to punish others and when to forgive them?

Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber

moving thru

Apr 15, 2016 - 09:03pm PT

Timid toprope, in regards to your first and last post here. No matter who you are, God knows your heart. Some humans are so stuck in the box, putting others in the box and judging it is craZY. Making God into something He never wanted to be.

Put the human stuff aside, go to the places you find yourself, be still and you will find His incredible, unreasonable, grace and you will find him.

7SacredPools

Trad climber

Ontario, Canada

Apr 16, 2016 - 05:05am PT

In the New Testament much is attributed to Jesus. Some of it sensible, some of it morally reprehensible, and some of it flat out wrong.
My question: what did Jesus tell us that we didn't already know?
And how has 2000 years of having this knowledge benefited Christian societies? No matter how you measure it, they are no better off than any other group.

Flip Flop

climber

Earth Planet, Universe

Apr 16, 2016 - 06:51am PT

Why him? Does he have a big God-dong for mystical impregnations?

Sadly, all Y'alls minds are damaged from a life of fantastic imaginings. Once you lose grasp of the real world and your own natural senses, your mind will believe anything that stops the confusion.

Fantastic creation mythologies based in the suggestible minds of fearful children.

And if you think that Jesus is better than Coyote then you're just a creepy racist.

rbord

Boulder climber

atlanta

Apr 16, 2016 - 12:23pm PT

No matter who you are, God knows your heart.

It's not so much God that people have a problem with, it's the other people who learn to believe "(I know that) no matter who you are (my) God (who I know and you don't know) knows your heart." We humans can learn to believe the same thing about our skin color if that works to our advantage.

Norton

Social climber

Apr 16, 2016 - 12:45pm PT

Sorry, you simply can not have it both ways.

You cannot say that you believe all of the bible is the literal word of a supreme being.

Your position falls to pieces when you are confronted with those horrible sections of the bible where humans are told, commanded, to murder, rape, and enslave other humans. Any reasonably intelligent person knows that those passages were written down by men and not transcribed by the same god of the other sections of the bible.

Men of 2000 years ago in the middle east grew up watching their fathers and other men enslave, rape, and murder people. And when they grew up they had fully assimilated that methodology of living and wrote it down to pass onto others.
And at some point in the future some other men read that stuff and included it in what would later be called the bible.

A rational Christian, and there are many, simply ignores those sections of the bible, along with not fearing punishment for eating shellfish on certain days.
That Christian shrugs his shoulders when confronted with those glaring contraditions and knows deep down that a supposedly loving and forgiving god would not, did not,
command humans to rape, murder and enslave each other.

But the really dangerous Christians are the ones who insist in the all literal bible, and includes people like klimmer and limpingcrab, who have both denied on this forum the possibility of human involvement in the creation of the bible.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Apr 16, 2016 - 02:09pm PT

But the really dangerous Christians are the ones who insist in the all literal bible

Again and again Norton your rudeness isn't eclipsed by your knowledge. Well "Literally" my bible says and i quote Exodus 21.1-2;

1 "Now these are the judgments which thou shalt set before them"(BTW, this is God answering Mosses' prayer asking for guidance concerning the spiritually rebellious Jews)

2 "If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing."

Norton, the key here is "IF"! God is saying If "YOU"(Jews, but Man in general) decide to take a slave these are My rules for it..

Your position falls to pieces when you are confronted with those horrible sections of the bible where humans are told, commanded, to murder, rape, and enslave other humans.

Seems your emotional insinuation is fueled by un-truths!

i'd advise, you revise

;)

Klimmer

Mountain climber

Apr 16, 2016 - 02:14pm PT

For the believers on ST following this thread a mystery revealed ...
(Or how to understand the wrong of Replacement Theology)

And maybe just maybe it might help those who don't believe to come and understand the mystery too, and that they might come to know G-d.

I always have hope.

Israel Revival: a Mystery Revealed

http://www.charismamag.com/blogs/jewish-roots/21837-israel-revival-a-mistery-revealed

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Apr 16, 2016 - 02:26pm PT

, it's the other people who learn to believe "(I know that) no matter who you are (my) God (who I know and you don't know) knows your heart."

Rbord, it's a way of passing the faith! Afterall, i KNOW what God has done in my life, and i also KNOW what He has done in the lives of others as well. i know Him to be as intimate as to know how many hairs are on your head. Although His prime concern is the condition of your heart.

Ask Him your plausibility

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Apr 16, 2016 - 03:18pm PT

Amen to whatever that was you said brother Blue!

Everyone needs their own, personal, jesus

[Click to View YouTube Video]

still waiting to hear if Jews go to hell.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Apr 16, 2016 - 03:32pm PT

which Jews?

The good jews, or the bad jews??

Could'ya think jesus accepting into heaven the Jewish Priests that condemded Him to death over Barnibus? i see a way it could be done. Remember jesus did redeem the thief minutes before his death..

Edit; vvv your right Lynne:)

Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber

moving thru

Apr 16, 2016 - 03:52pm PT

7 Sacred Pools, what did jesus say specifically that was morally reprehensible? Curious......He was a first when it came to treating women well in a culture and time that did not.

Edit: BlueBlocr.....Barabbas.

Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber

moving thru

Apr 16, 2016 - 04:05pm PT

Jim Brennan, thanks for the Thoreau. I really enjoyed it. It pretty much summarizes much of my life since my husband died and I have been on my own making my own choices. Cheers, lynne

Norton

Social climber

Apr 16, 2016 - 04:10pm PT

Kill Homosexuals
“If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.” (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Kill Fortunetellers

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Death for Hitting Dad

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

Death for Cursing Parents

1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Apr 16, 2016 - 04:47pm PT

which Jews?

The good jews, or the bad jews??

seem to remember someone else in history that asked that....

still didn't answer the question

in any case, when did good or bad matter to an evangelical? sounds kinda Catholic.

Kill Homosexuals
“If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.” (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

which is really ironic considering King James was a sodomite himself!

Pea-dub

Ice climber

sun diego

Apr 16, 2016 - 05:35pm PT

Hi Blue
Hi Lynn
My past posts I guess I was trying to share a here and now life
Instead of ,some one wrote this or that and this is why I don't believe
Or do.. Jesus always brought people to the present and confronted
then in the here and now. What are you doing now.
Not to many here want to here the truth from people of faith.
Just belittle call names nasty jokes etc.
In my walk I have struggled greatly in every area of life.
Off and on.
Most posters here didn't choose the day that they where born
The parents they had or didn't. The color of there skin. Or the day of there death.
I didn't get to choose wether I participated in the government mind control experiments
taking place when I was 2 1/2.(past posts )
I've been responding out of dissociation most of my life plus God's spirit.
If you read the old testament one big theme will stand out ,,don't be double minded
don't have a mixture.
I have had that all my life.
When they broke us it seems they put most of the memories along with most of the abuse on one
Part of me. I guess you could say that part of me is really angry pissed or ?
I can say with out a doubt that Jesus has been that buffer between that part of me,
and me .
No spaghetti monsters real pain real brokenness.
I know I don't post well. Or give a clear thought.

As the memories and physical pain gets closer
I find Jesus getting closer real peace real joy
Like a cool stream in the middle of the desert.
It's only one man's story but it's the truth.
I believe one day I may have to die for my believes it's in the bible. many warnings .
Happening around the world already.
I appreciate your prayers Paul

d-know

Trad climber

electric lady land

Apr 16, 2016 - 05:47pm PT

"Most posters here didn't choose the day that they where born"

No entity on this planet chooses the day they were born.

Faith in belief vs. reason and logic.

There are stories and there are facts.

Think.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Apr 16, 2016 - 06:06pm PT

Faith in belief vs. reason and logic

i guess your glory in reason and logic is its ability to determine which day to die?

Think again

Pea-dub

Ice climber

sun diego

Apr 16, 2016 - 06:29pm PT

d- know true I was trying to be funny.
Unless you are a c- section baby. Some one else decided the day.
Read Story of George Mueller he ran a orphanage in England.
True story.

So many say no God......
But they can only repeat what some one else has said or studied.
What is your own proof that there is no God.
I shared a very little of my life.
You and many others will so no God
I say yes there is a God and I have a story.
What's you story of no God. Not someone else's story...
Your own.....

Pea-dub

Ice climber

sun diego

Apr 16, 2016 - 07:29pm PT

I had a real encounter with Jesus in Jr high.
Raised in Baptist church . A lot of Bible truth taught along with
Pastor's and teachers living out lives that didn't match what was being taught.??
Thru life I wanted to be a real person and Christian.
Having a broken personality mind & spirit didn't lead to a easy life.

Many here would say you are foolish stupid and ignorant and not very
smart..... I will agree with you ,,,but not when it comes to God.
I'm guessing one day I will have to make a stand for Christ, deny him
Or die,, around the world Christians are being killed for there faith.
It will come here to.
Jesus is my only hope.
And he is helping me..

God Bless

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Apr 16, 2016 - 08:00pm PT

Looker, you got a toilet now....??

when i came over last you were just using a bucket, good for you dude!....

....

....did Landers finally get running water:).....

climbski2

Mountain climber

Anchorage AK, Reno NV

Apr 16, 2016 - 08:13pm PT

I came to a realization tonight.

Good thing there is no god. Cause I'd have to kick his ass if there was.

rbord

Boulder climber

atlanta

Apr 16, 2016 - 08:15pm PT

I hope that I'm starting to put the pieces together.

The free gas that I got from Jesus when he miraculously filled my gas tank does not contribute to global warming. I feel good about that - I'm just that special because of the way my belief creation processes form beliefs based on faith.

Man I look good in this skin!

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Apr 16, 2016 - 08:25pm PT

Good thing there is no god. Cause I'd have to kick his ass if there was.

Yeah, There you go! i said that once or twice too.

d-know

Trad climber

electric lady land

Apr 16, 2016 - 08:45pm PT

i guess your glory in reason and logic is its ability to determine which day to die?

Indeed. Given the volition, I could
choose your day as well.
Especially if god tells me so.

But we both know that is not
logical or reasonable.

Love and respect.

Flip Flop

climber

Earth Planet, Universe

Apr 16, 2016 - 08:58pm PT

This thread is a real turd.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Apr 16, 2016 - 10:06pm PT

Especially if god tells me so.
But we both know that is not
logical or reasonable.

Well, i don't think that's a loving response, so i don't think it's logical or reasonable to think it comes from God. Some that think they're hearing from God, might infact be hearing the Neanderthal from within..

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Apr 17, 2016 - 06:25am PT

Pea-dub

Ice climber

sun diego

Apr 17, 2016 - 09:00am PT

Hi Patrick
What's your own story and experience.
Not someone else's ideas or writing. ?
You do know the statement above is quite twisted.

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Apr 17, 2016 - 02:09pm PT

I've posted a bit upthread,

But i was raised in an evangelical world. Only christian school, and church 3 days a week. Super crappy excuse for an education. I was 2 years behind in college. oh but I memorized so many bible verses!

Came to learn that the biggest believers tend to be biggest azzholes and liars. I didn't speak in tongues, so I was ostricized. Watched my gay best friend get berated constantly for being different. Watched my father be falsely accused of stealing money from the church while the preacher walked with the dough. Watched the msot godly proclaim their chastity while fvcking like bunnies while the choir sang.

Then I went to a Mennonite college for a year before moving out west. I had and still respect their vibe and traditions. They aren't pompous dill holes and actually try to help people, live a simple life, and don't think every word of the bible is the sacred, direct word of god. They don't turn away gays and people even openly profess to drink and even smoke pot without hassle.

I've watched my parents throw their life savings to the missionaries and other BS 'ministries' out of some weird need they have for acceptance in the cult.

So yeah, I'm a little bitter and I'm really tired of evangelicals thinking they run the country. Trump has been awesome for this in that he blew the republican christian ideals up. Many of them, the sheep, are buying into his racist, misogynistic BS. They will be the perfect soldiers for the 4th Reich of Christ of Murica!

So, to the true Christian soldiers on this thread: be one, and follow what Christ wrote about loving other and sharing. It isn't about guns, gays and Murica. And your 'personal relationship' isn't an excuse for supporting a machine of BS and hatred.

Pea-dub

Ice climber

sun diego

Apr 17, 2016 - 05:39pm PT

Thank you for sharing a little. My eyes leaked a bit.
Sorry for having you repost.
Misrepresentation is the devils speciality.
Time wise I will have to share later.
Hope you aren't offended if I say God Bless.
I really mean it...

Your story triggers my own pain inside.
My thoughts get scattered.

7SacredPools

Trad climber

Ontario, Canada

Apr 17, 2016 - 08:14pm PT

Powerful stuff Patrick Compton...

To answer Lynne Leichtfuss: In Luke 12:41 to 57 Jesus explains how to treat your slaves including when and how to beat them. He goes on to say that he has not come to bring peace, but rather division among families.

In Luke 14:26 Jesus makes it clear that to be his disciple one has to hate their family.

Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber

moving thru

Apr 17, 2016 - 08:28pm PT

patrick compton, just so others on this thread don't think all "christian schools" were like the one you attended ...... My experience left me for the better. I had an excellent education as well as great opportunities for sports, singing, acting and music. The teachers were great overall and took their jobs seriously. My six siblings as well as 3 of our 4 kids went to the same school and had a great education there until we moved to San Diego. Jess sayin' not all experiences are the same and one can't paint it all with the broad brush stroke. Cheers, lynnie

Edit: I'm sorry about your Dad and the whole money thing. That's horrendous and I can see why you feel as you do. The church I went to was connected with the school and kids know "what up". We had the wife beaters, cheaters, molesters etc. It's sick, but a church is made up of people. In any walk of life people can profess one thing and do another. My faith/trust is not in people who will let you down. It's in my best friend, jesus, who has never.....through all of life's great challenges....let me down.

Pea-dub

Ice climber

sun diego

Apr 18, 2016 - 01:33am PT

Patrick did you have any relationship with Jesus when you where in school.
There still may be a connection inside some where.
I'm sure you know now that there boss was the devil.
Fooling a bunch of people. Causing great harm in many lives.
Truth always comes out sooner or later.
Wicked men masquerading as good men. You saw thru it evan at a young age.
I'm sorry for the pain in those years. It runs deep.
One thing I know is true, God let's people run there coarse that they choose, he puts road blocks
In the way,sends people across there path way to warn them, bigger thing yet is the Bible and all
the truths contained in it.
Today people make the Bible say whatever they want it to say.
Americanized Christianity is what we have. True gospel lost.... 35? Different denominations
Not God's plan.
Them that are lead by the spirit of God they are the sons of God.
Deny yourself pick up your cross and follow Me.
Those who love me keep my commandments.
Many many more verses.
Free gift but you have to live it out.
Relationship Relationship Relationship
Big difference between knowing all about Jesus and the Bible
and having the Holy Spirit living inside you directing your way.

Patrick probably nothing I posted helps. Turn to Jesus you know a lot
about him don't let wicked men's lives and lies turn you away.
If you are in San Diego email me. Oggies pizza is good. On me.
Give me a little notice time wise.
God's blessings

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Apr 18, 2016 - 05:33am PT

Pea-dub,

Thanks for the kind thoughts. I'm in a good place now. I've found other apostates, and we help each other work through our feelings of rejection from the church.

I don't have an issue with what Christ taught, but ever since I could read, I realized the church continually glossed over the words of love and forgiveness for shame and legalism.

I used to pray and feel i had a personal relationship with Jesus, but I was a child, then a young teenager. I still occasionally wish for the sense of security and warm fuzziness that gave. So, I won't completely dismiss the possibility of relationship with the divine, throw the baby with the bathwater so to speak. But my concept is vastly different than anything the mainstream church preaches for redemption.

Sounds like you had some seriously messed up things in your early life, and I am glad your relationship with Jesus has given you some relief.

micronut

Trad climber

Fresno/Clovis, ca

Apr 18, 2016 - 09:35am PT

Patrick sorry for the pain and distrust and hypocrisy and entirety of your experience with that church of yours growing up. That is so far from the healthy churches I've grown up in and continue to be deeply invested in. I really don't blame you for your views and understand that what you went through shaped your view of Christianity. My only encouragement is that what you shared is a poor representation of God himself. I hope you somehow have an opportunity to encounter God himself, rather than the broken people of your past that were a poor and hypocritical image of who he truly is and what his church is really about. Thanks for sharing your journey though. Its much appreciated around here.

Scott

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Apr 21, 2016 - 07:09am PT

what happened to Limping Crab?

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Apr 21, 2016 - 07:34am PT

Religion is, and always will be, an important part of many people's lives. Conversely, religion is not, and never will be, a factor in a growing number of people's lives.

Why can't both groups just go about their lives without trying to convert others to their point of view....a thankless and hopeless task.

Freedom of religion also implies freedom from religion. Go about your day without wearing your beliefs or lack thereof on your sleeves. It will be a welcome relief for everyone you come into contact with.

clinker

Trad climber

Santa Cruz, California

Apr 21, 2016 - 07:47am PT

The pews were uncomfortable, sermons long, and money was sent away while ignoring the plight at times of people on the other end of the pew. Best to hand deliver compassion directly to a need than to others running a "cause".
Better chance of saving two souls.

Religion is impractical, but when a person with one arm walks out of a service with two working arms, put your money in.

John M

climber

Apr 21, 2016 - 08:33am PT

I'm sure some people on this thread were trying to convert people, but I don't believe that that was limping crabs intention. He was simply trying to explain his point of view, just as many people on the mind thread are doing.

Hopefully some day people will understand that mans beliefs about God are not necessarily God.

As for the "hate your family" comment. Jesus never taught hate. The concept should be translated to mean "put before". God/Truth comes before everything. The concept is " in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God, and the Word is Truth". When you fully believe something, then you live it. But when you put other things before something that you say that you believe, then you are only proving that you don't really believe it, or you don't understand it. So in that statement about the family, Jesus was showing that one had to put God first in order to follow him and benefit from following him. Otherwise one was just pretending belief, and there is no benefit in that.

That is why the rich man was told to sell all that he owned and why Jesus also said that some will die and go before the Lord and the Lord will say that he did not know them. In both cases, the person had something that he/she valued over God, making that something the god in their life. There are consequences for turning away from God. And in one sense you can call it eternal hell. But that hell is not the hell of eternal suffering which modern Christians teach. It is the loss of Life which means that once one has lost their Life, then they have no more chance to know God. The Life I speak of is not one human body, nor is it one human lifetime. It is your spirit. The essence of you. You have been given this essence. It has a spark of Life in it. To make that essence eternal, then one must become one with the Father as the Father is the source of all Life. If one turns from the Father, then one eventually looses their connection and ability to receive Life and their life will fade away. Eventually ending.

On this thread we see both sides of the hate coin, which is not of God. We see people believe that God would hate enough to condemn his creation to hell for all of eternity, which is truly hate, and we see those who hate on people who even talk about God. That is the hate coin, and has no part in God. This is the reason man's beliefs are not God. If you want to know God, then you have to seek him/her with all your heart, with all of your mind, and with all of your soul. If you hold anything back, then you will most likely find deception and you will fall. Its much like not paying your dues in climbing. You can get lucky for a time, but eventually bad habits will catch up to you. Unless of course you are the exception to the rule. Which then requires an understanding of reincarnation. Everything in Life must be balanced. Karma is eventually paid back. Maybe not in this lifetime, but eventually. You create it, you are responsible for its balance.

I am so very sorry for those whose beliefs about God are based on some peoples actions. There is so much misunderstanding and untruth on this planet. God is Love and would never teach "torture for all eternity" or "hate", or "fear me". What we see on this planet is the consequences of turning away from God. We see hate, fear, pride and arrogance and all of its creation. This is not God, for God is Love.

John M

climber

Apr 21, 2016 - 08:48am PT

I am a Christian. I believe in the Christ. I believe that Jesus was the Christ. I just also believe that others also became the Christ and I believe that everyone can become the Christ. I do not accept the bible as the inerrant word of God. There is inspired word in it, but the bible itself is not inerrant.

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 21, 2016 - 01:43pm PT

What's the latest official policy on the Jews being responsible for killing Christ ?

do Jews burn in torture for eternity in the lake of fire?

I know HELL is a tough sell these days, but again,

do Jews go to HELL?

still waiting to hear if Jews go to hell.

I don't believe that a label or group decides a persons fate or relationship with Jesus. I think it's individual and personal (Romans 10:8-10)

I believe punishment is necessary and beneficial (Hebrews 12:5-7). I do not believe that punishment and forgiveness are mutually exclusive, and I understand this better now as a father of two.

My question: what did Jesus tell us that we didn't already know?
And how has 2000 years of having this knowledge benefited Christian societies? No matter how you measure it, they are no better off than any other group.

I believe Jesus taught us how we can have a full life and eternity through a relationship with God (Philippians 4:6-7). I do not look at the benefits of knowing Jesus through the lens of whole groups or societies or labels, but I have personally seen the benefit in the lives of individuals (John 14:27).

what happened to Limping Crab?

Some work, some parenting, and three days of this

I also didn't see many questions for me and am trying to stay out of the discussions, even if they're interesting.

If Jesus were a climber, would he ever need to dyno?

I believe a dyno is the holiest of moves, so that's all He would do. Maybe a heel hook every now and then.

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Apr 21, 2016 - 03:59pm PT

I don't believe that a label or group decides a persons fate or relationship with Jesus. I think it's individual and personal (Romans 10:8-10)

You should really run for office

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Apr 21, 2016 - 04:05pm PT

How about a personal relationship with Huitzilopochtli, just as good or burn in hell?

Pea-dub

Ice climber

sun diego

Jul 15, 2016 - 04:19pm PT

I had a heart attack couple weeks ago. 100% blockage left artery 2 m,,drove
To Kaiser 8 minute drive.25 minutes later
I'm in a ambulance headed to Scripps La Jolla 30 minutes later they are sliding a stint up my arm into my artery. Wow...
I waited at home for about 25 min after my left arm started to have some pain & cold sweats decided best action would be to go now. God is Good
Patrick Compton sharing a little bit of your life story really helped me a lot.
Some where inside of me something clicked
about people's pain and actions words.
It took awhile to notice but last couple months I've become more of a people person
Still have abit to go.....
If it is ok with you limpingcrab to share a few things about my life on this thread ,i don't really have the stuff to host my own thread. I could have never answered all the ,questions you answered

It has helped me abit to share here.
in a nutshell I was on a military base in 1960 for 4 months mind control experiments they told my parents I had
Epilepsy and wanted to help. I would never be the same person....
Jesus has been my help even though at times he has felt very far away.
Your call limping crab
On Dean's appreciation thread I posted
And deleted really quickly I wanted to call someone out but that's not my job.
Especially when God continues to be merciful to me.. Paul
Still double minded
Edit. My daughter flew out of Istanbul on
Tuesday evening....

aspendougy

Trad climber

Los Angeles, CA

Jul 15, 2016 - 06:51pm PT

https://www.amazon.com/Life-Before-Childrens-Memories-Previous/dp/031237674X

If you examine the history of Christianity, you find that the doctrine of karma and reincarnation was originally a part of it, then it was thrown out largely for political reasons.

In the book mentioned above, the author gives a case of a boy in Turkey who was an Armenian Christian in his previous life, then Muslim in this life. This case and thousands like it tend to support the idea that Christianity was a more accurate world view when these concepts were part of it. If the notion that once you believe in Jesus, you go to heaven forever were correct, then you would not have numerous cases like this.

When Jesus said, "The kingdom of heaven is like unto a field, where a man finds it, and goes and sells everything he has, and buys that field" he is talking about the same thing that Buddha taught, the renunciation of samskaric pleasure and pain, for eternal bliss.

I do not put myself as any authority on this subject, but only caution a person who does put himself forth as an authority, on such a forum as this, please first make sure that you really know what you are talking about.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Jul 15, 2016 - 07:25pm PT

Ask a Christian....get an answer? A real answer, or maybe a sermon. Faith begets sermons...reason produces answers. Creationism vs. evolution comes to mind.

ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber

ne'er–do–well

Jul 15, 2016 - 08:41pm PT

Glad you survived p-dub.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Jul 15, 2016 - 09:38pm PT

When Jesus said, "The kingdom of heaven is like unto a field, where a man finds it, and goes and sells everything he has, and buys that field" he is talking about the same thing that Buddha taught, the renunciation of samskaric pleasure and pain, for eternal bliss.

i don't feel it as the same thing. i don't think jesus said much concerning how to feel. whereas buddha spoke much about sensual pleasures, and all across the spectrum to suffering. but what were buddha's actual trials? he was a bummed out rich kid, turned tree hugger? seriously, what's his life's experience, denialism? with a lot of words!? ontheotherhand, jesus was highly experinced in confrontationalism, and only spoke of peace. he didn't pick up a sword when the oppressive government came for him, like peter did. which peter in emotional distress tried to cut off the cops head, but only got his ear. which jesus promptly picked up and made the cop whole again. then put up his arms and allowed the cops to take him away. that's confrontational peace! what's buddha got to hold up to that?

no, i don't think jesus was talking about eternal bliss when he was describing heaven is like unto a field. i think it has more to do about finding the truth.

edit; sorry if i rant. it just perturbs me when people try to hold buddha up to jesus(not to more than a chuckle tho these days..). if anything buddha is old testament ;)

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Jul 15, 2016 - 09:41pm PT

Pea-dub, i'm glad you found the truth. stick to it and be wondered by what it brings

Wade Icey

Trad climber

www.alohashirtrescue.com

Jul 15, 2016 - 10:23pm PT

Thou shalt not kill

Pea-dub

Ice climber

sun diego

Jul 15, 2016 - 10:59pm PT

BIOTCH thanks that means a lot to me.I'm glad I'm still here also.
Changes your view on a few things in life when you step close to the edge.
Although my views on things may be different than most,someone might want to listen. The taco stand has many interesting people and stories.
Paul
Thanks Blue

thebravecowboy

climber

The Good Places

Mar 2, 2019 - 11:16pm PT

How do you, OP limpingcrab, personally reconcile "Vote My [presumably christian] Faith" bumpersticker coincident with a "DJT 2020" sticker on the a bumper that I see every day? That is, do you believe that most christian folks supportive of DJT's continued control of our country find his behavior consistent with christian morals, beliefs and expectations? If not, how will such inconsistency and/or supporters of such be treated at the St. Peter's Gate? So confused.

Also: do you believe that churches should be tax-free entities? What about the church of the pastafari, the Flying Spaghetti Monster worshippers?

and: do megachurches enriching folks like Joel Osteen properly honor the christian lord?

more: do muslims or christians occupy the high ground in their violent clashes?

Further: Can morality be taught without reliance on the Christian books/institutions?

again: what scientifically verifiable evidence do you believe exists for the existence of god? is it wrong for people to expect or hope for such evidence when asked for money or faith or adoration of god?

curioser: why does god allow, on massive scale, its purported representatives to rape children and largely avoid legal consequence? will the man of the cloth that raped my uncle (as a child) go to hell for doing so? should my uncle be a christian and will he go to hell for being a proud atheist resultant to this sexual abuse in the house of god?

otra vez: do you believe in the existence of the DSM-recognized psychologic/psychiatric condition of hyper-religiosity in the christian population? if so, how do you believe god feels about christian people praying to find parking at the mall, etc (no joke, I have observed this).

disrespect intended with the snark. I apologize for that.

thanks for talking about this though (hoping for response despite dead-end thread resurrect).

and now for the hardest question of all: what's the best route you've ever climbed?

ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber

ne'er–do–well

Mar 3, 2019 - 12:50am PT

Do not cast your pearls before swine

Spider Savage

Mountain climber

The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles

Mar 3, 2019 - 07:13am PT

Christianity is Christianity. It's the text of the New Testament and nothing else.

The New Testament is pretty difficult or perhaps impossible to understand due to wild contradictions (probably added by marketing people in the First Council of Nicaea.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

And in subsequent similar meetings.

I recently did a read of the whole thing. (audobook) Mostly because I was sick of hearing people "interpret" it.

Conclusion: If you don't fully devote your life to God as Jesus advocates, you are not with it.

If Christianity came out more recently it would be dubbed a dangerous cult.

Watered down versions of Christianity are not Christianity. From my reading Jesus advocated an "all-in" attitude.

Now the man may have been really onto something because he had this remarkable ability to heal people and set their lives right. Oh, to know what he was really doing would be of great value. Alas, oral accounts passed on and handed down, translated and retranslated, processed through Nicaean councils, etc. It's not there anymore. I bet it was good.

Christianity and Jesus, probably really great stuff. Twisted by people of bad intention, yep.

I have real respect for good Christians who make this their solution to life. And if they are putting it in my face, even more respect. Because that is how Jesus did it.

Zay

climber

Monterey, Ca

Mar 3, 2019 - 07:24am PT

Hey there, say, anyone...

I've been noticing a lot of coincidences in my life as of late.

This thread is one of them... I'm going to church this morning for the first time in 12 years.

Too many, too powerful... I think something is going on. Maybe I'm just crazy (I am; manic depressive) maybe im in an episode that I just can't tell... got out of the hospital a few weeks ago for it anyway.

Something tells me that every religion is wrong and right at the same time.

Several, devout individuals from multiple walks of faith have told me,

"Believe in what ever you want, just believe it well."

I'm going to church, but I've been told to expect more questions than answers.

What the hell is going on???

Gary

Social climber

Desolation Basin, Calif.

Mar 3, 2019 - 08:18am PT

"Mankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest."

Y'know, I've always wondered about Paul putting a contract out on that couple that didn't turn over all their money to him in Acts.

i-b-goB

Social climber

Nutty

Mar 3, 2019 - 08:36am PT

If all the eternal grandeur about us is God's handiwork? Christianity states Jesus, God's only begotten Son came to make atonement for all sins (is there sin?).
Giving God's amazing grace to those who believe in Him! This is the only way that does this, with no way out on our own, Jesus is the way! : )

Adieu

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