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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 4, 2016 - 12:31am PT
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For most rock types? Hands down and by a long shot I'm calling it for HB Alloy Nuts - pure genius.
I know, I know - all you guys are going to say cam-this and cam-that, but given the choice of leaving the ground without my cams or without my HBs, the cams are getting left in the dirt every single time.
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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I'm going to have to go with... a kernmantle rope.
I know I know you mean something else as in hardware, but...doesn't a rope technically qualify as pro?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 4, 2016 - 01:11am PT
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Having started on and climbed with goldline for a long time you aren't going to get any argument from me on the kernmantle front.
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Stephen McCabe
Trad climber
near Santa Cruz, CA
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Thread slip: Instead of best ever, favorites at the time for me (sequentially):
A small Peck Cracker because it was my most unusual nut when I first started climbing, actually not very useful, but I found a great place for it on Royal Arches.
A Moac that I found, and then was doing that size crack in the valley for a few weeks. Loved it.
Friends when they first came out.
Slung knobs.
HB brass nuts when the back country crack I was doing got too small for the #1 stopper.
The Pink tricam for Power Dome.
X4s are kind of nice now.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 4, 2016 - 02:07am PT
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A small Peck Cracker because it was my most unusual nut when I first started climbing, actually not very useful, but I found a great place for it on Royal Arches.
One of those saved my life bigtime on the Bastille long ago. Still get shivers thinking about it.
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sangoma
Trad climber
south africa
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As my partner said to me after taking a massive wipper. "I love my rope ". Me I love my small gold Hex , caught my death wipper , still gives me goose bumps thinking of it. Other wise my DMM wallnuts do it for me.
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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Joseph, I have always thought that there was only one generation of HB Aluminium Offsets (these nuts hit the market in 1989)… I was wrong! I have no idea when Hugh Banner redesigned his Aluminium Offsets, but I was delighted to add such a “2nd generation” to the collection a few months ago.
I am most grateful to you for starting such a tribute to Hugh Banner.
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couchmaster
climber
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For long routes, they tend to be on the heavy side. I'd say that the little HB's, the brass offsets, would be in there for me as well. In fact, RP's, the early Australian soldered nuts, were the prerunners of those HB's, and totally the stuff when they came out. There was nothing that would protect like they would.
Stephan, is there a difference between the 2 HB versions you note?
Obligatory RP nut photo borrowed from Steve Grossman below:
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 4, 2016 - 08:22am PT
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Hmmm, I always carry two sets and guess I've never even thought of their weight. I've cut everything else down with small Petzl Ange biners and ultra-light cams at this point. If I needed to lose any less weight leaving the ground I've got more than enough to lose on most parts of my body than that.
Pretty much the swaging and labelling I think if you compare mine and Stephane's pics.
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Tork
climber
Yosemite
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How about this game? You have a rope, binners draws and such plus an endless supply of one piece of gear(that is one size and one type). Pink tricams for me hands down.
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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1st and 2nd generation HBs have the same size. The difference is in the manufacturing process. I suspect that HB made a new mould for the hot forging process. You may also note the countersunk holes on the top of the nut. The edges are slightly rounded on the 2nd generation.
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Gary
Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
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That thing between your ears.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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If it had to be one kind only?
1-11. There's a certain aesthetic and kinesthetic beauty to using these. Then I don't climb sandstone much and when I do all the spring things come out to play.
There is a certain awareness, pace, and craftsmanship associated with passive gear. It's fun to see people appreciate passive pro here.
Gary, yes!
"Technique is your best protection."
~ Chuck Pratt
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Yes, the time I had to fashion a hammock from my rope I was sooo glad it was a kernmantle
rather than a goldline, not that it really mattered once the deluge commenced.
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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I never liked the HB offset nuts. They had a very major flaw. Because they are tapered in the horizontal plane(AKA offset) you can never really tell how much of the face of the nut contacts the rock. That's bad.
With a conventional stopper you can tell pretty reliably if you have good rock contact or not.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Having started on and climbed with goldline for a long time you aren't going to get any argument from me on the kernmantle front.
I'm with you on that one, Joseph. I'm not sure how I measure "most important ever," but my criterion is the pro that was most significant in development of modern protection. For me, it's the MOAC, because Stoppers, Rocks, and from them , offsets, all come from the basic MOAC design, namely a wedge threaded through its length, rather than through its width.
Hexcentrics, clever though they were, struck me as evolution from existing hex designs, as did Peck Crackers, but the advent of Stoppers, which were, essentially, taking the MOAC and scaling it up and down, made clean climbing feasible on most climbs without excessive runouts, in a way no pro prior did.
John
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Offsets are incredible but like anything they suit certain rock types. If you climb on granite or anything where pitons have been used they're the best.
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Yellow alien. Can't count the number of times that bugger bailed me out. More recent stuff like the grey X4 is arguably better, but I still have nostalgia for the yellow alien, it was by far the best piece in that size for a good number of years.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Rope gun. Hands down.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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After watching the current generation of top climbers mostly climb with nothing but cams I moved the nuts off my base rack. My base rack is one set of cams up to a #2 camalot. Then I add as needed for the climb. Sometimes that's a set of nuts if it's a thin crack. Sometimes is #3 and up cams for wide cracks. Most often it's doubling up the cams from .4 to #1. The only time I climb something without cams would be a thin crack that I'm aiding.
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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Good posts today, Fet, not to imply they are other than on other days.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Good posts today, Fet, not to imply they are other than on other days.
My experience is that I can count on good posts from the Fet every day.
John
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Gee thanks guys. I sometimes worry I come across as a know it all, so it's nice to know my posts are appreciated. By the smart people anyway. ;-)
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Blue Totem
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looks easy from here
climber
Ben Lomond, CA
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Rope gun. Hands down.
Great for sure, but they take so dang long to manufacture, and are ridiculously expensive.
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Presto
Mountain climber
Vancouver
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That thing between your ears.
Too manky and tattered in my case...
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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The cloud 9 cam is pretty versatile.
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MattB
Trad climber
Tucson
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Tricam
Fits Anywhere a cam will, and tons of places nothing else will
Best idea, worst gear: link-cam
HB offsets are superb, but not an invention, just a modification
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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And the winner is......the camalot!
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MattB
Trad climber
Tucson
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Yes for the camalot....
but wasn't the double-axle just a patent skirt around?
What about the "two-cam" or splitter cam thing...
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Okay....make it the best pro brought to market.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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The cloud 9 cam is pretty versatile. But how the hell do you buy one? Almost as mythical as the Pamalot.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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I think those little brass stoppers are useless. Any serious impact destroys them. BD steel nuts in the same size ranges float my boat. Love HB nuts, all of them.
Tricams are great but specialized. They work well where nothing else will, but 99% of the time a cam or nut will be better. The same is true for ball nuts.
A good stopper is bomber, as is a good cam. My point? Everything is situational.
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MattB
Trad climber
Tucson
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I'm sorry, but comparing ball-nutz to tri-cams? One mostly useless, one almost too-bomber
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Ball nuts are great for aid! So are those little teeny tri-cams that look like toys.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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But how the hell do you buy one? Almost as mythical as the Pamalot. The stuff of dreams, put that in your pipe......
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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One mostly useless, one almost too-bomber
Everything is situational.
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Inner City
Trad climber
East Bay
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Gary beat me to it...good judgement!
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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I am not sure the double axle design of the Camalot was an attempt to skirt around Jardine's patents, but even if it was, the double axle gives improved range for a given cam which makes them way more versatile(though a bit heavier) than single axle cams.
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clockclimb
Trad climber
Orem, Utah
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+1 for healyje. DMM offsets are the best stoppers I've ever used bar none.
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Vic Klotz
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Campbell Saddle-Wedges should be on the list.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 8, 2016 - 01:50am PT
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I'm sorry, but comparing ball-nutz to tri-cams? One mostly useless, one almost too-bomber
I still rack and use ball nuts for free climbing all the time; my tricams on the other hand haven't left the basement since around 1993...
They were great in their time, if they were modded...
P.S. Did have a serious soft spot for saddle wedges, but never replaced them when my original rack was stolen out of my car (pre-ebay).
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MattB
Trad climber
Tucson
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Excellent stiffy! Is that shrink tubing? Any wire? My way isn't so nice, tape and wire or drinking straw.
I'm sure I need to try loweballs a bit more... I've got the three small ones gathering cobwebs in a haulbag.
BTW, what sizes do you end up using most? I know beacon rock has miles of thin cracks... takes nuts better than cams, from the few times I've been there.
We're saddle wedges the first nut with face scoops? The dmm nuts were my favorite, probably because of the scoops, HB has 'em, too
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 8, 2016 - 10:11am PT
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Thanks - strip from a pop bottle in the webbing, electrical heat-shrink tubing (careful) and sport tape.
Loweballs: #3 & 4 all the time, take the #1 & 2 on FAs, never use the #5
Not sure one the Saddle Wedge / scoop history - gotta check here with 'NutStory' - Stephane Pennequin or Marty Karabin, they're the historians.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Cams. Without exception. They changed everything.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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The basic handjam.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Cams for rock climbing and the modern screws for ice climbing.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Denver CO
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Brilliant idea healyje, I learned to climb with floppy tricams at the gunks, with a shaft like that they would be great pro. Maybe even make a comeback although I think people would still see them as obsolete. But once you get a tricam set, you just know it can't come out.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nuts, cams, bah!
Sheep chocks are the wave of the future.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Cams for rock climbing and the modern screws for ice climbing.
It's an interesting exercise to take an old style screw (old Salewa or Chouinard) and a BD Express to a block of ice and compare how hard they are to sink flush.
You quickly gain appreciation for the grit ice climbers from the 60s and 70s had!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 8, 2016 - 10:00pm PT
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Don, thanks, just seemed obvious after a year or two of getting frustrated with them in their 'out-of-the-box' configuration.
If cams had seen the same level of pure progress as ice screws they'd fly off your sling or harness, place themselves, bond with the rock at a molecular level, and retrieve on voice command.
The likes of this pretty much put me off ice climbing and made me an early impromptu practitioner of dry tooling.
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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Joseph, to my knowledge, the first person who thought to modify a wedge-shaped nut on that way is the much missed British rock climber Tom Proctor. In the mid seventies, Tom scooped the sides out of the widest faces of his larger nuts. A strip of the original face was left in place to retain the biting edge and strength.
Then Gaylord Campbell (USA) came in 1976 with the launch of the Saddlewedge, and DMM (North Wales) with the Wallnuts in the early eighties.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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the heck with placeing in a block of ice. get your butt up on Repentance or the last Gentleman and try placeing one of those old chiounard screw and a snarg or two..... that kind of gear will make you a grade 3 climber or a rock climber in a hurry..
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Rankin
Social climber
Greensboro, North Carolina
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1) Wild Country Rocks
2) Friends
3) Tricams
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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best pin:
1/2" baby. saved my butt more than 25 times and it the penultimate desert anchor.
runner up:
#3 pecker (beak). made kb's and arrows useless
best passive nut:
#3 chouinard curved. I found this piece and it has always worked. I have owned zero other curved nuts.
runner up:
#2 HB brass, countless placements
best camming nut:
bliss/byrne (not lowe) balls. mine are wasted now, made thick arrows useless.
best cam:
1.5 original friend,just like the size.
.....and best piece overall
seismo. WTF was waggoner thinking. porta chin up bar?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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On any given day more trad placements are made with Camalots than anything else...should tell you something.
The best pro, and there is alot of good stuff out there, is always limited by the judgement of the climber placing it and it has been my observation that good judgement is in a somewhat limited supply.
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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A few shots of a full set of HB Curves.
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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Bonjour Master Grossman, pleased to "meet" you here... :-)
These are HB Curves, and I am well afraid that Joseph's favorite are... HB Aluminium Offsets...
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Maestro Pennequin- I thought that I would post them anyway for fun but correction made.
I haven't been able to find a proper set of the Offsets to add to my collection.
I assume that the Curves predate the Offsets but you certainly have the timeline on both designs sorted out already.
The smaller Brass Offsets would be worth showing here too if you have a photo of those.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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As far as impact on my own climbing both free and aid, I have to go with RPs.
Here are some early versions before they became standardized in production like the ones shown upthread.
When John Sherman let me know that he was headed down under I asked him to bring me back seven sets of the brass wonders and a set of the larger aluminum ones. He laughed at my request and then said "Now you'll be equipped to go and repeat Tubesock Tanline!" one of his routes in Boulder named for the quasi fashionable Jim Collins.
I have never been able to source a set of the big RPs but perhaps Maestro Pennequin has a set for show and tell.
Nothing quite like steppin' out on a #0 RP looking at a good ride!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 9, 2016 - 11:42pm PT
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Loved all things RPish that have been put out on the market, but over the years eventually winnowed the micro pro down to the Crack N Ups, HB brassies, and Lowe/Byrne Ballnuts.
Never did like the those channeled HB nuts; tried to like them, but ended up ditching them pretty quick.
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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Mar 10, 2016 - 01:28am PT
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Steve: the HB Aluminium Offsets hit the market in 1989, the Curves in… 1993!
And... I promise you that that I have not posted the photograph below to tease you ;-)
Joseph, I took this photo this morning. Here are two Tom Proctor's modified nuts. Enjoy!
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Mar 10, 2016 - 07:29am PT
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Loved all things RPish that have been put out on the market, but over the years eventually winnowed the micro pro down to the Crack N Ups, HB brassies, and Lowe/Byrne Ballnuts.
Yeah. Still love those Crack N Ups! Both aid and free. Have used em on Flagstaff basalt (they set amazingly well in the tiny pockets that thin basalt cracks get), Granite Mountain in Prescott, J Tree, and The Valley. The big ones have held free climbing falls. Anybody have Crack N Up stories to share?
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Mar 10, 2016 - 07:42am PT
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Some great input on this thread
Ksolem posted
Everything is situational.
Bingo. The best piece is the one you need NOW.
Used to carry hexes just to preserve the limited cams I had and for practice, BITD.
Used to carry Tri-cams, but found I hardly ever used them.
Always carried one set of stoppers.
Camalots are definitely the industry standard.
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this just in
climber
Justin Ross from North Fork
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Mar 10, 2016 - 09:05am PT
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What's the common theme in the pics below?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 10, 2016 - 06:26pm PT
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The best pro ever invented...a calm, clear mindset.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Mar 10, 2016 - 11:35pm PT
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^^^^ Indubitably, oh wise and extremely gifted one.
And add....
"Technique is our protection."
~ Chuck Pratt
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 11, 2016 - 12:50am PT
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Stephane, thanks for the pic of Tom's drill outs. Cool.
Lots of great posts here and lots of obvious and great quips relative to the mind, technique, what you need now, what the situational imperative is, etc.
My take on the HBs and the reason for the thread was, that of all the considerable pro I've used over forty-two years, there is something almost indescribably and incredibly nuanced about every aspect of the HB - a Goldilock's 'just right' perfection that could easily have never come together if the design and geometry were off by a millimeter here or a degree there.
Can the same be said of other pro? Sure to one degree or another, but for me the HB alloys somehow signify it best of all. But then some pro like cams which are driven/constrained by ratios within narrow limits in order to function and with which there is little mathematical wiggle room. Nuts aren't so constrained - any and every thing is an option and the HB geometry could just as easily never emerged or missed the mythical sweet spot. Somehow they did and for that I am quite grateful as I can't imagine climbing without them exactly as they are.
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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Mar 11, 2016 - 01:27am PT
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Maestro Grossman, is this what you have in mind...?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 12, 2016 - 12:52am PT
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Love the brassies, but not being an aid climber I tend to only carry the #4 & 5.
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dindolino32
climber
san francisco
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Mar 13, 2016 - 09:57pm PT
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I'd have to say the current ropes seem pretty great but as for cams, Totems all the way.
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Aug 19, 2018 - 11:07am PT
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Totems. Especially the black thru purple!
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mongrel
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Aug 19, 2018 - 02:08pm PT
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I'll go in a different direction and nominate the earliest Chouinard wired Stoppers, like #3-5 (at the time). Rationale: these were the nuts that finally evicted pitons and hammers from the majority of people's racks and truly started the clean(er) climbing era. That's huge.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Aug 19, 2018 - 02:19pm PT
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Cams, stoppers, T-Tons, peckers, hexes, pins, bolts and runners on knobs are all worthless as pro . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . without carabiners.
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pell
climber
Moscow
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Aug 19, 2018 - 02:57pm PT
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Beaks. A synergy of beaks and Mjölnir is the best rock climbing protection ever.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Aug 19, 2018 - 03:23pm PT
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I like what mongrel said up there. I like stoppers(still).
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| Messages 1 - 83 of total 83 in this topic |
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