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OjaiClimber
Trad climber
Ojai, Ca
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Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 3, 2016 - 09:28am PT
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I'm climbing Positive Vibrations on the Incredible Hulk when the snow melts. I've climbed Red Dihedral and loved the climb. Supertopo stated that to climb PV I should be able to cruise The Rostrum in Yosemite. PV is 5.11a but the North Face of the Rostrum is 5.11c so I'm a bit confused on how I should be able to cruise a valley 5.11c before climbing PV which only has 2 small sections of 5.11a. Has anyone done both routes and have any input to that? I KNOW I can climb 5.11a but 5.11c gets me a bit worried.
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
sawatch choss
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You are definitely going to die.
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katiebird
climber
yosemite
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Meh..the Rostrum is a bit soft for 11c. Compared to Astroman, it's 11a. Positive Vibes is great, it's a bit sustained but there is nothing 11c about it.
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WBraun
climber
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OjaiClimber -- "I'm confused"
That's because you're number climber.
Just do it .....
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OjaiClimber
Trad climber
Ojai, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2016 - 10:07am PT
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Thank you everyone besides Braun. Braun, you don't even know what kind of climber I am. Suck it.
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MarkWestman
Trad climber
Talkeetna, Alaska
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PV is sustained at mid to upper .10 but is overall a MUCH easier outing than the Rostrum.
There's about 15 feet of 5.11 climbing on PV and it's easier than any of the Rostrum's .11's.
The 'cruising the Rostrum' note more appropriately applies when talking about Astroman.
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Mei
Trad climber
I'm back!
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The 11c part on the Rostrum is only for about 10 feet of finger crack. And even the upper 11b pitch (7th) is not that stiff. Put the number and letter aside, I can see a point in Supertopo's recommendation. If you struggle on the Rostrum, or even just be inefficient on it, now you throw in the altitude and the long approach in prior that are involved with Positive Vibrations, you probably should not expect an easy-peasy cruise up on PV. That said, in order to cruise the Rostrum, it requires a wider spectrum of techniques (esp. OW and wide), which are not required at all on PV.
If you are solid at 11a finger/hand, you should be able to get up PV in good style. If you are efficient and have good endurance, you'll have a funner time on it (as well as on the descent if done in the day light).
This thread is a rare climbing topic, which is always fun to follow. Hope it does not deteriorate into unrelated not-even-funny jokes, disgusting photos, and pointless videos like so many other threads did.
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snowhazed
Trad climber
Oaksterdam, CA
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Depends on your strengths- I find the Rostrum to be a more physical outing. I was nowhere close to cruising the Rostrum when I onsighted PV. Now, years later, that I can cruise the Rostrum, PV has become much easier.
I think the recommendation is to remind climbers that being 3 hours back in the alpine is more serious than being in the Valley. Or Chris Mac was honed on physical valley cracks and not so honed at altitude when he wrote the topo??
Or maybe he means if you plan to summit and walk down as opposed to rappel. The former involves three incredibly loose easy pitches, and then the end of the RD. It's a big day.
One time through binoculars I watched a guy take a 40 footer on the pitch after the crux. From there he resorted to aid and turned the last 400 feet into 6 or 7 pitches- took them well into the night. They stumbled back to the bivy near dawn mumbling about biting off more than they could chew. Pretty funny.
The crux pitch is 11c ish if you do the whole thing as one pitch, and I've heard Croft agrees and take his word when it comes to the hulk. Many parties break it into two shorties. The moves at the end are 11-, but you will likely have significant rope drag. Last time I was up there I put it all together, but only because I placed less gear and put runners on everything, something you will likely not do on your first time.
Enjoy- it's certainly one of the best in the range.
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MarkWestman
Trad climber
Talkeetna, Alaska
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Good points Mei.
The lack of wide on PV is a big factor, also the Rostrum is generally steeper.
Endurance (and being acclimated) is kind of the name of the game on PV- the upper half is harder than the lower half.
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enjoimx
Trad climber
Yosemite
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Interesting opinions here.
I actually cruise the rostrum many times each summer. It feels great.
I climbed PV for the first time last summer. I felt it to be a harder overall climb than the rostrum based on commitment, remote location, and elevation.
The pitches themselves aren't terribly hard. But onsighting them at elevation makes them seem harder than the Rostrum pitches, which is always a repeat for me.
That said, I tried to do the crux pitch as one pitch whereas some people recommend breaking it into two. I fell at the last move of the crux pitch because of rope drag. I would highly recommend breaking it into 2 if you want the onsight and no rope drag on the beautiful steep exposed crux pitch!
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OjaiClimber
Trad climber
Ojai, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2016 - 10:53am PT
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I'm deffinatly going to rappel the route. For some reason the altitude doesn't get to me up there. The only issue im worried about are my super fat fingers. I remember for example falling on the laser cut 10.a finger section of Dark Star at Temple crag because I could literally only get my pinky fingers in and only halfway in to my finger nails. I climbed the whole pitch basically pasting my pinkies into the crack and stacking my fingers on top of them to get some extra strength. I now always worry what "finger crack" actually means to whoever put the route up.
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cotuclimber
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Compared to the Rostrum, PV is less sustained. Doesn't have the wide climbing. A lot of cruiser handjamming and a few cruxy thin spots. With large fingers, the thin 5.10 section on the 2nd pitch will seem hard. The crux itself is not super easy. Reminds me of thin face climbing. Split that pitch in two or else you may be hosed by rope drag. It is a great climb. Do it and the Polish Route or Sunspot. If you have done the rostrum, sunspot is not a giant step up. It does have heads up climbing and sustained pitches. Logical step up from PV.
Edit: if thin fingers is hard, get better at crimping.
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MarkWestman
Trad climber
Talkeetna, Alaska
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The summit ridge pitches really don't take that long and then the descent from the top is fast. The alternative is rappelling Venturi which I've not done- but if it's windy it will be problematic.
Definitely each route plays to varying strengths. I'm more of an alpine climber and the PV feels way easier to me. The Rostrum is much more physical and though I've done a fair amount of that kind of climbing, the upper half of the Rostrum always feels tough for me.
The thin hands section early in the PV crux felt harder to me than the 11- face/fingery bit at the end- and definitely rope drag is hard to avoid if you do it as one big pitch.
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Mei
Trad climber
I'm back!
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I'm deffinatly going to rappel the route. But why??? That means, you won't do the whole route? The walk off is really not that bad despite being daunting. Plus, you get to sign the summit registry (assuming it's still there) where Peter Croft might have just signed saying that he was "pretty pooped." (That was after he hiked in and did Venturi Effect the same day before hiking out.)
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OjaiClimber
Trad climber
Ojai, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2016 - 12:40pm PT
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I've done the walk off of Red Dihedral. I saw a couple of guys rappel PV in about 45 mins and it just seemed so much easier. I guess my partner and I will make the decision based off of time. I'm bringing a second 8.1 rope anyway in case of weather or us just sucking super hard.
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snowhazed
Trad climber
Oaksterdam, CA
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Single 80m is all you need to rap. Bailing from top of 6 or above requires gear- the rap follows the venturi headwall- super cool to lay eyes on the next level sh#t. And rapping is way faster than walking off (if all goes well)
I second the opinion that P2 10c will likely be your crux- its thin. There's some unexpected stems that make it go at the grade.
Pitch 6 can be done without drag, just takes runners and thoughtful placement. If you pull the bulge to the rest before the fingers splitter and the rope is running clean- I say go for it.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Single 70 is all you need to rap, as long as you watch the ends. Tie back up knots.
But why??? That means, you won't do the whole route?
If he has done the RD and "summited," I don't think he will miss much. The ridge traverse to the top is a bunch of choss with an annoying hole to squeeze through. I thought it was fun in a way, but am sort of indifferent to be there again, after two visits.
Especially because the summit is not a true summit of the formation. It is a little bump on the side of a ridge where climbers decided to place a register to record their climbs on the wall. The venturi raps are very quick and convenient. You can top rope quality/hard pitches on the way down, if you have time and energy. The purists may not like the idea, but oh well. Do whatever the hell you feel like and f*** em.
I second the opinion that P2 10c will likely be your crux- its thin. There's some unexpected stems that make it go at the grade.
That set of moves never felt easy and I have seen people stand in a sling there.
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OjaiClimber
Trad climber
Ojai, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2016 - 01:13pm PT
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I don't have a 80 meter rope but I'll be climbing on my mammut serenity 8.7 rope so I think it'll stretch quite a bit. I've heard you can do it with a 70 meter if you are careful. I hope that's true. I hope I don't have to stand in any slings but if I absolutely have to in order to make it the top I will and then I'll go back and get it clean later if I start having remorse dreams. I really appreciate everyone's feedback and ideas. So much more helpful than Mountain Project.
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cotuclimber
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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. WAY to many wanking questions
Climbing forums are created to ask, answer, post reports and to talk about climbing. Surprise!
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Mei
Trad climber
I'm back!
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Re: Vitaliy
Thank goodness I'm not a purist! But are you getting defensive for no good reason? ;)
When I asked why, I didn't know OP had summitted before. But in general, I personally do not take rappel as a default option unless it's an established/standard/commonly accepted descent approach (like on Royal Arches or Serenity/Sons). There are many reasons:
1) there might be parties below, so your rappeling might cause them delay or grief
2) you sometimes have to carry one extra rope, which generates more work and slows you down, which may just lead you to a state when you have no better option than rappel (bail).
3) rappeling is accident prone
4) rope can get stuck
That said, I've done it occasionally, not for bailing but for more better climbing. Being able to top out on PV and then rappeling down Venturi Effect to checkout some cool hard pitches on TR actually sounds appealing if it's doable and assuming that would not get in anyone's way.
WAY to many wanking questions Often times, that's a sign of excitement and stoke. I can relate and happy to share. When I'm stoked, I want to talk about climbing and I want to ask questions (even if they might sound silly to some), but I, most of the times, refrain from asking here on the forum because I've found that when you are excited about climbing (esp. around your little goal), many others are not (maybe they once were, but they've forgotten that excitement now with the climbing days behind them).
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OjaiClimber
Trad climber
Ojai, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2016 - 02:08pm PT
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I asked a specific question, I don't need you or Braun to tell me what questions to ask or how I should think about climbing. Telling me that I'm a number climber is rude as f*#k and not answering the question I asked. Nothing constructive or helpful. I will not be apologizing. Maybe some people don't mind doing a 4 hour hike in the alpine to go climb something that they don't know that much about. I'm aware of my climbing limits related to grades and I have limited weekends to go climbing so the info I asked was directly related to my personal situation to maximize my possibility to sending the route. If Braun wants to talk sh#t then I'm sure he's a big enough boy to get some sh#t back. Also I don't really think Braun needs you to go around giving back up for sh#t that he started.
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Jim Clipper
climber
from: forests to tree farms
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Thank you everyone besides Braun. Braun, you don't even know what kind of climber I am. Suck it.
Dude, I think you just told the "dalai lama of the valley" to suck it.
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OjaiClimber
Trad climber
Ojai, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2016 - 02:23pm PT
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Hmm, I don't think the Dali lama would oppose me sticking up for myself. You think that because someone is a prolific climber that they get to talk sh#t to people? That's not how it works. Braun is a big enough boy to know that if he's rude that someone will be rude back.
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brotherbbock
Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
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Ojai keep chasing those numbers........Forget Werner.
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snowhazed
Trad climber
Oaksterdam, CA
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Let's get this back on topic
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Jim Clipper
climber
from: forests to tree farms
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I think the Dalai Lama would say, please don't leave bodies on the mountains, they are too important to us.
On that point, I believe Mr. Braun would agree.
Finally, I only say Dalai Lama of the Valley affectionately. I beleive Mr. Braun prefers sitting on the mountain tops, pointing out us crankloons.
namaste
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WBraun
climber
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I had no intention of being rude to you.
Years ago me Kauk came up with the idea to stop dealing with rating numbers and just plain groking the routes and getting a familiar feel in our minds eye.
Much less distracting junk in our minds then carrying around meaningless numbers in our heads for us.
A lot times I wouldn't even tell partners how hard a pitch would be before we started because ratings would weigh down a person.
They always did much better in that respect.
The unnecessary extra baggage was not carried and their minds became freer.
Good luck on your future adventures ....
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Friend
climber
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Werner Braun for the win.... again
Tom onsighting Positive Vibes, near the top, photo by me
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OjaiClimber
Trad climber
Ojai, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2016 - 02:58pm PT
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Hey Werner. Thanks for the clarification. I understand that point of view you just stated. I would agree to that in the valley and especially in jTree where one can stay at the ground and make their assessment of the route while actually viewing it. Unfortunately PV is a mystery that you have to hike to so I can't just look at it and decide. Also, I'll be leading that route and I know my personal limits of what I can lead so I have questions based off of what I know about myself. I don't want to climb a route until I'm physically ready, that's just my personal preference. It's nice for someone like Ron Kaulk to say just go for it but you have to admit he was quite strong so not everyone is ready for that type of commitment. Also I want to clarify that I have absolutely no problem with you personally, just the comment you left me. It's all love but I always like to stick up for myself. It's either a bad character trait or a good one depending on how one looks at it.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Re: Vitaliy
Thank goodness I'm not a purist! But are you getting defensive for no good reason? ;)
When I asked why, I didn't know OP had summitted before. But in general, I personally do not take rappel as a default option unless it's an established/standard/commonly accepted descent approach (like on Royal Arches or Serenity/Sons). There are many reasons:
1) there might be parties below, so your rappeling might cause them delay or grief
2) you sometimes have to carry one extra rope, which generates more work and slows you down, which may just lead you to a state when you have no better option than rappel (bail).
3) rappeling is accident prone
4) rope can get stuck
If you thought I group you with the purists, you misunderstood, Mei. As far as I remember, last weekend you went up to the Rostrum, started at the midway ledge, climbed several pitches of the reg. N face route to the base of the 7th (?), rapped, did the blind faith pitches and topped out. Or something like that. That indicates a) you are not a purist b) you do what you see fit, based on own psyche. I have talked to you in person more than once and have more respect for you as a person to tell you to suck it! :) I said whoever has problem with ME TRing some other pitches while rapelling, can. It is a personal choice to do so or not.
The OP suggested he does not care about reaching what people call the summit. I have no clue if he has been to the top or not. My suggestion is based on him not caring to go there. Maybe he will top out PV, get excited to go further and go. I don't care, hope he has a blast whatever he decides. It is up to him what to do in his free time on PV as it is up to you what to do when you climb the Rostrum. Namaste!
MEGABETA:
http://www.dreaminvertical.com/2012/07/incredible-hulk-101-tips-tricks-and-beta/comment-page-1/
beta about the rap route is included there.
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Mei
Trad climber
I'm back!
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Ha, you called me out on that one (last weekend)! It's EXACTLY what I had in mind when I wrote my reply admitting "I've done it occasionally, not for bailing but for more better climbing." It was my first time doing something like that (like going to the top of P7 of the Rostrum before coming down to do Blind Faith for more quality pitches). With six parties on the wall (on the last weekend before closure), it worked out well for pretty much everybody. We did have to rappel by one party, and boy, I felt bad about it even though they were cool about it. I know nobody would ever call me a purist and I'm far far from being one, but I still was glad that I was not in the group that you cursed. :)
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Alexey
climber
San Jose, CA
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no matter what is your excuses Mei, your reputation as "purist " is completely ruined now
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Mei
Trad climber
I'm back!
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But, I'm "basically famous now" and everybody knows what I look like from that realistic sketch.
Actually, come to think of it, OjaiClimber, forget about the Rostrum. It's closed anyway! Guess you'll just have to do OZ three times in a row. That sounds rad! Let me know if you need a partner for it. You may have to lead Pitch 2 as I remember it being extremely reachy for me last time, but who knows; maybe I've become more stretched out since then.
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OjaiClimber
Trad climber
Ojai, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2016 - 04:20pm PT
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Thanks everyone for all the info. I feel much more inclined to go do PV now with everyone's info. You also just helped me figure out that I only need to carry 1 70 meter rope for the rappel which will speed up my time and cut down 6 lbs from my pack for the hike in. I really really appreciate everyone coming together like that.
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OjaiClimber
Trad climber
Ojai, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2016 - 04:27pm PT
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I already found it and slept under it when I was climbing Red Dihedral. The day we got there it started pouring just as we found the cave and it stayed bone dry while we watched a couple of guys rappel from the top of PV and they got soaked.
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okie
Trad climber
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Flew right over it yesterday. Still a lot of snow of course. "Too many questions..." Whatever, is there such a thing as too much STOKE? I don't think so!
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snowhazed
Trad climber
Oaksterdam, CA
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snow makes the approach go faster, and you can shoe ski the walk off! also the loose ridge pitches might have a few mini bergshrunds to squeeze though if you summit, very entertaining
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland, CA
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Can someone who has the experience fill in the blanks for me, or correct what I've got wrong here. Trying to get the pathways worked out. One can dream damnit!
1. You should be able to totally cruise Braille Book + HCR linkup to climb the NEB.
2. You should be able to totally cruise the NEB to climb the Steck-Sal.
3. You should be able to totally cruise the Steck Sal to climb the Lost Arrow Chimney.
4. You should be able to totally cruise the Lost Arrow Chimney to climb __.
5. You should be able to totally cruise ___ to climb the Rostrum. (New D? New D + Midterm + Leanie Meanie linkup?)
6. You should be able to totally cruise the Rostrum to climb . (A-Man sure but give me something other than A-Man)
7. You should be able to totally cruise Astroman to climb _.
8. You should be able to totally cruise __ to climb Mary's Tears to the Crucifix.
9. You should be able to totally cruise __ to climb the motherf*#king Freerider!
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The Alpine
climber
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If you split the crux pitch, PV is sustained 5.10.
Such a good climb. First time we went out there and climbed it, it was so good we climbed it again the next day.
Rap Venturi is the way if you've already been to the summit. 1 70 is fine. As others have said, watch the ends!
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marty(r)
climber
beneath the valley of ultravegans
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Hulk light...
Hulk belay...
Hulk hands...
Hulk stoke...
Hulk raps...
Inshallah. ¡cumbre! Mahalo.
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