Antonin Scalia: RIP

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dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 13, 2016 - 02:15pm PT


http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/02/14/us/antonin-scalia-death.html?_r=0
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Feb 13, 2016 - 02:26pm PT
Now things will get interesting...
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 13, 2016 - 02:30pm PT
Yes. Very interesting. Shocking.

Apparently he was hunting yesterday and didn't show up for breakfast today. Mercifully it sounds quick. Do something you love one day and die the next.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Feb 13, 2016 - 02:54pm PT
Cold^^^^^^^^^


RIP .
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 13, 2016 - 03:01pm PT
Some conservatives-Cruz-- are already saying Obama should not be allowed to appoint a replacement, even though a new president will not take office for nearly a year, and it would take many months for the new president to nominate a replacement and for confirmation. In other words, it could be 18 months before there is a new Justice.

http://www.vox.com/2016/2/13/10987012/should-obama-replace-scalia
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 13, 2016 - 03:03pm PT
Can they actually deny Obama the ability to appoint someone?
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Feb 13, 2016 - 03:07pm PT
Constitution... Article 2, discussing powers of the President... from Section 2:

He shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur; and he shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by Law: but the Congress may by Law vest the Appointment of such inferior Officers, as they think proper, in the President alone, in the Courts of Law, or in the Heads of Departments.

Probably some changes in the details since then, but it does seem they can block his nominations indefinitely by not consenting to his choices.
monolith

climber
state of being
Feb 13, 2016 - 03:12pm PT
Obama can nominate, but unlikely a vote will be allowed this term.
Lurkingtard

climber
Feb 13, 2016 - 03:19pm PT
Finally.






~~~
Bushman

Social climber
Elk Grove, California
Feb 13, 2016 - 03:20pm PT
Absolutely the most obstructionist congress I have seen in my lifetime. Paid slackers living high on the hog, nearly one and all IMO.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 13, 2016 - 03:29pm PT
Mitch McConnell just said Obama should not be allowed to fill it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-nation-live/liveblog/live-updates-reactions-to-justice-antonin-scalias-death/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-high_scalia-liveblog%3Aliveblog%2Fpromo



So, that settles that.


There will be a ton of 4-4 decisions in the next year, meaning that a ton of lower court decisions will stand.
looking sketchy there...

Social climber
Lassitude 33
Feb 13, 2016 - 03:41pm PT
Raises the stakes for this election even more.

With Ginsburg even older (82 years old) and looking to retire and Breyer also 82, either there will be a slight tilt to the center left (a Democrat Pres) or even more to the right (a Republican Pres).

John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Feb 13, 2016 - 03:53pm PT
Obama can nominate, but unlikely a vote will be allowed this term.


Agreed.

Our Presidents history, has been to do things that are as far to the ideological Left as can be. Neverminding whether possible or not. He'd rather be known, for a string of Ultra Left non approved appointees, than for getting in a Justice, that leans Left, but a sterling experienced Justice, that could pass the Senate. He'll watch the world burn for some months, while awaiting a career that will make the Clintons, post Presidential career, appear tame by comparison.

It's already interesting, for once, the news cycle isn't dominated by Trumps latest outrage.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 13, 2016 - 04:00pm PT
Pending cases that could see 4-4 decisions, which would keep intact the appellate court's decision:



http://www.vox.com/2016/2/13/10987116/scalia-supreme-court-tie
Jorroh

climber
Feb 13, 2016 - 04:04pm PT
Aren't there certain Obama nominee's that have been waiting for years?

I can certainly see a role for Congress in vetting appointees. It seems like this congress is doing something really unprecedented though.
Is it reasonable to hold up so many appointees for no apparent reason other than they don't accept the twice-elected president as legitimate?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 13, 2016 - 04:09pm PT
Our Presidents history, has been to do things that are as far to the ideological Left as can be.

This is the delusion of perspective suffered by most of the right today. The gop has moved so far to the fringe right that Eisenhower, Goldwater, Nixon and even Reagan would be castigated as liberals today. It's a political doppler shift - you've moved so far to the right that centrist politicians of either party look like extreme leftists. The reality is Obama stayed the course with half of W's nightmare and what little else he has accomplished could hardly be called progressive let alone far left.

Scalia? Good riddance. He was one of the worst jurists ever with the exception of Thomas who is without a doubt one among the ranks of the worst of the worst to ever sit on that lofty bench.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Feb 13, 2016 - 04:12pm PT
Total agreement with that.
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Feb 13, 2016 - 04:12pm PT
puullleezz. The records of Kagan and Sotomeyer, speak for themselves.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 13, 2016 - 04:15pm PT
Both are legal giants compared to Thomas.
David Knopp

Trad climber
CA
Feb 13, 2016 - 04:18pm PT
or at least kagan and sotomayor can speak. Has Thomas had his lips welded shut?
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Feb 13, 2016 - 04:20pm PT
Condolences to his family and those who cared about him.

It sounds like it was unexpected, but the cause of death "has not been released," according to the linked article. Does anyone know if he had some illness or frailty which would likely have been the cause?

EDIT:

Oh, the cause of death has been reported. He died following a thirty year battle with social progress
http://www.theonion.com/graphic/justice-scalia-dead-following-30-year-battle-socia-52356
kief

Trad climber
east side
Feb 13, 2016 - 04:25pm PT
Obama could stick it to Cruz and Co. by reappointing David Souter, the retired (2009) Republican justice who allied with the liberal wing more often than not and voted against Bush in Bush vs Gore. He is in good health and regularly sits as a judge in the New England circuit of the federal Court of Appeals. Diehard right wingers hate him but his record is so distinguished that he would get enough Republican votes to be confirmed by the Senate.

Unless he does something creative like that Obama has no chance of filling the vacancy.
dugillian

Trad climber
Vancouver
Feb 13, 2016 - 04:37pm PT
Not shedding a tear over that old windbag....

The Re-Butt-plugs can block a nominee for as long as they wish but in the end it does them little good. A 4-4 court just means lower court decisions hold.

If they block it just means the Dems can do the same if Donald Dump or the inbred Cruz ever became the Prez.

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Feb 13, 2016 - 04:38pm PT
Wow this made a good day even better.

Always a good thing when evil dies. Good riddance to bad rubbish. He was always on my better dead list.

Unfortunate the Senate will not allow a nominee to be accepted. Still a 4-4 tie is better than the 5-4 shitfest we had.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Feb 13, 2016 - 04:56pm PT
Better dead list?

[chuckle]
Norton

Social climber
Feb 13, 2016 - 05:06pm PT
dirtbag is a lawyer!

dirt, can you tell us if there is any eventual requirement that a justice be appointed
and confirmed ?

and do all pending cases continue on as per normal but the only difference being
that a 4-4 tie is now much more likely, and if a justice excuses from a case can
4-3 decisions then become law?

in theory can we end up with NO justices on the court if they all eventually die or quit
and the senate does not "advise and consent"?

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Feb 13, 2016 - 05:15pm PT
At 79, he was one of the young ones.
Risk

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Feb 13, 2016 - 05:23pm PT
Conservatives Quickly Refuse Any Obama Court Replacement After Antonin Scalia's Death

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/scalia-obama-replacement_us_56bfabe4e4b08ffac1258cf5?cps=gravity_5059_-6186591079844717732

The longest confirmation for a SCOTUS justice took 125 days. Obama has 342 days left in office. I'm seeing Obama getting a replacement before he leaves office or a bunch of idiot monkeys making history and getting America to vote them out. Go ahead!
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 13, 2016 - 05:30pm PT

dirt, can you tell us if there is any eventual requirement that a justice be appointed
and confirmed ?

Not that I know of. I am not sure how the senate could be forced to vote.


and do all pending cases continue on as per normal but the only difference being
that a 4-4 tie is now much more likely, and if a justice excuses from a case can
4-3 decisions then become law?

in theory can we end up with NO justices on the court if they all eventually die or quit
and the senate does not "advise and consent"?

Yes pending cases should continue. 4-4 decisions mean that the appellate court decision prior to Supreme Court review becomes law in that jurisdiction. There is no Supreme Court case law applying nationwide as a result. 4-3 would become law, I think, but I'm actually 100% not sure. That is very rare.

Yes, it could be years before we get new justices. But politically, republican senators in swing states would catch some hell for it.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 13, 2016 - 05:39pm PT
Tmjesse, if they play that game, he should submit a nomination anyway. Make the senate try to cogently explain to the American people why they are willing to prevent a Justice from being seated in a timely manner.


Anyway, a delay to the next president would mean a delay of 342 days plus several months for confirmation. And if Hillary or Bernie is elected, expect added political battles on top of that. Just because.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Feb 13, 2016 - 05:59pm PT
he was too ideological to sit on the court.

So if the repubs want to delay any confirmation, how about this scenario.
A dem gets elected president, and nominates Obama to the sc. If the repubs still control congress, are they still willing to stall? How long?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Feb 13, 2016 - 06:04pm PT
Scalia defended Gerald Ford's executive priveladge claim during the Watergate investigation and kept damaging evidence from being exposed...Nothing wrong with coverups eh antonin..? Scalia voted along Republican party lines pretending that he was following legal precedence...Being elected to the supreme court because of his italian heritage didn't change his opposition to affirmative action...Sorry for his passing but his policy's stunk like sh#t..
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Feb 13, 2016 - 06:05pm PT
I don't like to celebrate someone's death, even as reprehensible a person as Scalia. I'm just happy President Obama is in office, although, the do-nothing GOP congress will work to block a nomination. Shows how important it is to elect a Democrat in Nov.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Denver CO
Feb 13, 2016 - 06:38pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
bergbryce

climber
East Bay, CA
Feb 13, 2016 - 06:39pm PT
Good riddance.
Very few deaths make me happy but this is one of them.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 13, 2016 - 06:40pm PT

Feb 13, 2016 - 06:02pm PT
So dirtbag,

Since the vacancy occurred during O's presidency, are the nominees limited to his choices even if none of them are approved by congress before his last term ends, or can the next president add his/her own nominees?

Do O's nominees automatically get the boot with a new president?

I'm not an expert on the nomination process, but I don't see why a nomination couldnt be pulled by a president Cruz or Trump.

Apparently, Obama plans to nominate someone. Good--it should be a very interesting year.
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Feb 13, 2016 - 06:55pm PT
The longest Supreme court vacancy was over a year, the last year of Tyler's presidency. There were 2 vacancies. Tyler did get one filled, oddly just before the end of his term.
Tyler was referred to by some as "his accidency."
He was elevated from vice pres to pres when Harrison died after only 1 month in office. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Tyler#Presidential_election.2C_1840

Somewhat similarly, Fillmore became pres in 1850 when Taylor died. There was a vacancy in 1852. Fillmore made a nomination in August when Justice McKinley died in July 1852, however his own party had already picked someone else to run in the Fall election, so they wanted to wait for a new president.

So those cases are different than the existing one. If the Senate delays, it looks like this would be the longest delay for an "Elected" president.

Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Feb 13, 2016 - 07:03pm PT
Evolution quote by Scalia in his 1987 dissent:
"The body of scientific evidence supporting creation science is as strong as that supporting evolution. In fact, it may be stronger…. The evidence for evolution is far less compelling than we have been led to believe. Evolution is not a scientific “fact,” since it cannot actually be observed in a laboratory. Rather, evolution is merely a scientific theory or “guess.”… It is a very bad guess at that. The scientific problems with evolution are so serious that it could accurately be termed a “myth.”
zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 13, 2016 - 07:14pm PT
YIKES!

Supreme Court Justices can say anything they want, so they do.


I'm sure Il Scalia had a boatload of evidence to support his unobservable speculations.
Risk

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Feb 13, 2016 - 08:42pm PT
The longest Supreme court vacancy was over a year, the last year of Tyler's presidency

Perhaps, but was there a nominee? If there's no nominee, the clock doesn't start ticking. Big difference. Sounds like Tyler was lazy or there may have been other reasons to not nominate someone.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Feb 13, 2016 - 10:49pm PT
healyje posted
Scalia? Good riddance.

climbski2 posted
Wow this made a good day even better.
Always a good thing when evil dies. Good riddance to bad rubbish. He was always on my better dead list.

bergbryce posted
Good riddance.
Very few deaths make me happy but this is one of them.

Good riddance, better dead list, Very few deaths make me happy but this is one of them? Yikes!

You people are full of hatred for someone who opposses your viewpoints?
You must really hate half of the country.
Is this what the face of liberal tolerance and empathy really is?
I call it a sickness, maybe the only time I have ever called a fellow climber a name on the forum.
Best look inside yourselves, cause I feel bad for the hatred you cling to.
I hope you find peace with your fellow man someday.
Maybe concentrate on making yourselves better people rather than exhibiting your disgraceful irreverance about a decent man's life.
It is the way of Buddhists, a great culture.
Either that or just bitterly cling to your hatred.
Daphne

Trad climber
Northern California
Feb 13, 2016 - 11:21pm PT
Someone who simply opposes my viewpoints doesnt get my hatred. Someone who has the power to make his viewpoints into laws which shape and control my life definitely gets my hatred.

I will feel the same when Clarence Thomas goes.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Feb 14, 2016 - 05:41am PT
Good,like real nice reefer.

Riddance,the action of getting rid of a troublesome or unwanted person or thing.


Sorry if that hurt your feeling,Larry.

RIP Judge Scalia.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 14, 2016 - 06:07am PT
Norton, here's a good column for you. The first half provides a brief overview of how the court issues decisions, and the implications of this process now that Scalia has died, including the implications for cases in which he heard arguments during this term. 4-4 decisions are discussed.

The second half argues that republicans would be kind of screwing themselves over by not considering any nominee this year.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/02/13/if-republicans-block-obamas-supreme-court-nomination-he-wins-anyway/
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Feb 14, 2016 - 06:40am PT
Condolences to his family

Now let's get a real judge in there
In the twentyfirstcentury we don't need someone who thinks like;
Evolution quote by Scalia in his 1987 dissent:
"The body of scientific evidence supporting creation science is as strong as that supporting evolution. In fact, it may be stronger…. The evidence for evolution is far less compelling than we have been led to believe. Evolution is not a scientific “fact,” since it cannot actually be observed in a laboratory. Rather, evolution is merely a scientific theory or “guess.”… It is a very bad guess at that. The scientific problems with evolution are so serious that it could accurately be termed a “myth.”
There is too much at stake to be burdened by an ignoramous who doesn't know what scientific theory is.
" a guess" did he ever take an introductory science class in his life?

I understand the reactionary obstructionist republican establishment wanting to deny Obama the process of doing his job, it's been their shtick for some time now.

But whether they are successful in blocking an Obama appointment, they are going to have to face the facts; the next judge will be less conservative than Scalia. It's not like we're going to have a republican in the White House any time soon.

Meanwhile a lot of damage will be done by losing a year or more. Of not having a full court. Is harming the people of the United States what the repubes are elected to do?

And it could very well turn out to be a big mistake on the republicans part; Obama is more conservative than Bernie, one can only imagine that that will be reflected in his appointee selection.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Feb 14, 2016 - 06:57am PT
Good perspective.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Feb 14, 2016 - 07:02am PT
Wilbeer posted
Sorry if that hurt your feeling,Larry.

My feelings aren't hurt. The lack of civility and hatred has nothing to do with me.
Sometimes I wonder where the brotherhood of mankind went. Are we that far gone?
I just hope that some reflection by the gleeful posters brings them some perspective and peace.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Feb 14, 2016 - 07:05am PT
Larry ,if you knew me ,you would know I don't hate anyone.

There simply is not enough time.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Feb 14, 2016 - 07:31am PT
You people are full of hatred for someone who opposses your viewpoints?

Not even close to why I am happy he is dead.

Understand this ..I love my country, I care deeply about the people in it. Scalia was an idiot with power and did great damage to this country. I could care less if someone merely disagree's with me. But I do care if an idiot wields and uses power in a way that causes harm.

For example I have no wish to see Bush dead since he is out of power.. If Scalia had been impeached I would not be glad he is dead.

But an active force of destruction of our nation is gone and I'm very glad.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Feb 14, 2016 - 07:40am PT
I'm a politician, I know about..?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 14, 2016 - 07:41am PT
Antonin Scalia’s bad law, bad history: How the Supreme Court legalized corruption

Citizens United sparked a political revolution that would have left the Founders revolted
http://www.salon.com/2014/09/20/antonin_scalias_bad_law_bad_history_how_the_supreme_court_legalized_corruption/


I hate Scalia because he was corrupt to the bone, he did so much damage to this country with his "low intellect" and completely far right wing ideology. He was the lowest of low morally and ethically and basically was biasing all law in favor for the rich and Corporations over the well boing of humans.
He embodied the definition of fascist, and he had the power to corrupt our Politics in favor of Fascist law, like Citizens United.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 14, 2016 - 07:58am PT
Injustices: The Supreme Court's History of Comforting the Comfortable and Afflicting the Afflicted

by Ian Millhiser
Hardcover – March 24, 2015

http://www.amazon.com/Injustices-Comforting-Comfortable-Afflicting-Afflicted/dp/1568584563/ref=la_B00N8AEN8E_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1455465277&sr=1-1

Few American institutions have inflicted greater suffering on ordinary people than the Supreme Court of the United States. Since its inception, the justices of the Supreme Court have shaped a nation where children toiled in coal mines, where Americans could be forced into camps because of their race, and where a woman could be sterilized against her will by state law. The Court was the midwife of Jim Crow, the right hand of union busters, and the dead hand of the Confederacy. Nor is the modern Court a vast improvement, with its incursions on voting rights and its willingness to place elections for sale.

In this powerful indictment of a venerated institution, Ian Millhiser tells the history of the Supreme Court through the eyes of the everyday people who have suffered the most from it. America ratified three constitutional amendments to provide equal rights to freed slaves, but the justices spent thirty years largely dismantling these amendments. Then they spent the next forty years rewriting them into a shield for the wealthy and the powerful. In the Warren era and the few years following it, progressive justices restored the Constitution’s promises of equality, free speech, and fair justice for the accused. But, Millhiser contends, that was an historic accident. Indeed, if it weren’t for several unpredictable events, Brown v. Board of Education could have gone the other way.

In Injustices, Millhiser argues that the Supreme Court has seized power for itself that rightfully belongs to the people’s elected representatives, and has bent the arc of American history away from justice.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Feb 14, 2016 - 08:22am PT

RIP
hellroaring

Trad climber
San Francisco
Feb 14, 2016 - 08:23am PT
I'm just wondering what's he gonna do when he finds out God is a queer woman of color?
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Feb 14, 2016 - 08:28am PT
Conservatives always complain that liberals politicize everything. In Scalia's
case, it was the pot calling the kettle black.

Larry, it's not about civility, but when ignorance, and poor judgment is stymied, it's a good thing.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Feb 14, 2016 - 08:46am PT
I feel bad for the Koch brothers.

I don't hate them either........
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Feb 14, 2016 - 09:45am PT
Donald Trump will lose the election to POTUS and be given Supreme court position.
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Feb 14, 2016 - 10:57am PT
You people are full of hatred for someone who opposses your viewpoints?
You must really hate half of the country.

Indeed. Both the red and blue people, have disgusted and alienated many voters. With the white noise of the ideolgues ire as a smokescreen, Trump, is already positioning himself in the Center. You could see it again, in the debate last night.

The looming ideological brawl over both SCOTUS and the Budget, will turn off even more voters, thereby consolidating both Donald and Bernies positions as the pre-emptive outsider nominees.

Here's my prediction. Trump wins the WH. Democrats win back the Senate.
zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 14, 2016 - 11:37am PT
I think Hitler has already died.

How about Charlie Manson?

So in line with some of the other predictions seen here on the ST, I'll go out on a limb and predict Obama will nominate Manson for the Supreme court.

I think he may have to pardon him first though, since Manson is a convicted felon whereas Scalia was only an aspiring one.



10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Feb 14, 2016 - 11:46am PT
Here's my prediction. Trump wins the WH. Democrats win back the Senate.

it's not looking good for the people to win back the senate, but if we do, it would result in another four, possibly eight years of gridlock. If that happens, this country sucks.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Feb 14, 2016 - 12:17pm PT
The Scalia "quote" sounded suspicious to me, so I took a few minutes to see what was going on. Here it is:

The Scalia "quote" about evolution is a fabrication, unless you think that every time you say what someone else said, then that's a quote attributable to you.
The "quote" is from Scalia's summary of testimony of a witness.
Anyone who cares can read about it here:
https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=3232659778662846156&q=edwards+v.+aguillard&hl=en&as_sdt=4006&as_vis=1

This is what Scalia said about his summary of the witness's testimony:
Before summarizing the testimony of Senator Keith and his supporters, I wish to make clear that I by no means intend to endorse its accuracy.


As far as I can tell from quick Internet searching, the fabricated "quote" comes from a website that apologized for it (although then went on to say there's a "larger point" about Scalia being wrong. Maybe, but that's not much of an excuse to make up a "quote" from someone when in fact it's just a summary of someone else's testimony (and Scalia explicitly noted that he did not necessarily agree with the summary).


Scalia is wrong. “Creation science” has no educational value. The assumption that creationism constitutes a legitimate scientific alternative to the theory of evolution is simply false. Religious myth and superstition have no place in the science classroom. Teaching children creationism as a legitimate scientific alternative to the theory of evolution is a form of child abuse and should not be tolerated.
(H/T Daily Kos)
(Update: Several diligent readers have complained that the above quote taken from Scalia’s dissent is unfairly attributed to Scalia and taken out of context since Scalia prefaced the quoted remarks by claiming to be only paraphrasing the arguments being made in favor of teaching creationism. The readers’ complaints have merit, and the author wishes to apologizes for any confusion. However, the larger point still stands: Scalia was wrong to defend the teaching of creationism as a legitimate scientific alternative to evolution.)


http://www.patheos.com/blogs/progressivesecularhumanist/2015/06/scalia-commencement-speech-supports-young-earth-creationism/
Dave Davis

Social climber
Seattle, WA
Feb 14, 2016 - 01:18pm PT
The snarkiness and attempts at humor Scalia often exhibited in writing and giving his opinions often struck me as more form over substance. In other words, perhaps a little more refined version of what Donald Trump does. Glad to see him go from the bench, but not in this manner as I believe he probably had some good attributes as well. On a personal level his best friend on the court was Ruth Bader Ginsberg and he was also close to Elena Kagan. I disagreed with the man vehemently, but I have people among my friends that I do as well. Ultimately the guy was still a husband, father, grandfather and friend to many people. I find it ironic that he and the President have a similar background- Harvard law and teaching at the University of Chicago. In my fantasy world Congress won't let the nomination through and the next Pres. appoints Obama. There would be some poetic justice...
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Feb 14, 2016 - 01:26pm PT
Blah,
you're right Scalia was quoting. However he is using the pretense of quoting someone else so he could claim he was not there to judge whether creation science is correct. He wouldn't have quoted such silliness if he didn't think it was relevant.
He claims it only matters if the Louisiana politicians believed it was correct, which is complete nonsense.
Creationism is not science, and Scalia's many pages of quotes to the contrary do not change that.

"But my views (and the views of this Court) about creation science and evolution are (or should be) beside the point. Our task is not to judge the debate about teaching the origins of life, but to ascertain what the members of the Louisiana Legislature believed. The vast majority of them voted to approve a bill which explicitly stated a secular purpose; what is crucial is not their wisdom in believing that purpose would be achieved by the bill, but their sincerity in believing it would be."

It is said that Scalia has some history of using his dissents as political treatise.
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Feb 14, 2016 - 01:45pm PT
Another case of nomination within 1 year of the next election:
"Reagan nominated Anthony Kennedy on November 11, 1987 and he was then confirmed by the DEMOCRAT led Senate to fill the vacancy on February 3, 1988, which is 9 months before the the 1988 election.

At that point Reagan had already chosen 2 new Justices and elevated another to Chief.

During his 1980 campaign, Reagan pledged that, if given the opportunity, he would appoint the first female Supreme Court Justice. That opportunity came in his first year in office when he nominated Sandra Day O'Connor to fill the vacancy created by the retirement of Justice Potter Stewart. O'Connor was approved by the Senate by a vote of 99-0 on September 21, 1981.

In his second term, Reagan elevated William Rehnquist to succeed Warren Burger as Chief Justice.

After deciding to elevate Rehnquist to Chief Justice, Reagan considered both Robert Bork and Antonin Scalia to fill the vacant seat left by Rehnquist's elevation, but ultimately chose the younger and more charismatic Scalia. Scalia was approved by the Senate by a vote of 98-0 on September 17, 1986.

Summer/Fall 1987 Reagan nominated Bork to replace the retired Justice Powell. Bork was not confirmed. Then Ginsburg was nominated, but he withdrew.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Reagan_Supreme_Court_candidates#Anthony_Kennedy_nomination
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Feb 14, 2016 - 02:36pm PT
From our years together at the D.C. Circuit, we were best buddies. We disagreed now and then, but when I wrote for the Court and received a Scalia dissent, the opinion ultimately released was notably better than my initial circulation. Justice Scalia nailed all the weak spots—the 'applesauce' and 'argle bargle'—and gave me just what I needed to strengthen the majority opinion. He was a jurist of captivating brilliance and wit, with a rare talent to make even the most sober judge laugh. The press referred to his 'energetic fervor,' 'astringent intellect,' 'peppery prose,' 'acumen,' and 'affability,' all apt descriptions. He was eminently quotable, his pungent opinions so clearly stated that his words never slipped from the reader’s grasp.
Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg

"My colleague Nino Scalia was devoted to his family, friends, our Court, and our country. He left an indelible mark on our history. I will miss him and the dimming of his special light is a great loss for me. My thoughts are with Maureen, his children, and his grandchildren."
Justice Sonia Sotomayor


"Nino Scalia will go down in history as one of the most transformational Supreme Court Justices of our nation. His views on interpreting texts have changed the way all of us think and talk about the law. I admired Nino for his brilliance and erudition, his dedication and energy, and his peerless writing. And I treasured Nino’s friendship: I will always remember, and greatly miss, his warmth, charm, and generosity. Maureen and the whole Scalia family are in my thoughts and prayers."
Justice Elena Kagan
dugillian

Trad climber
Vancouver
Feb 14, 2016 - 02:55pm PT
My friend has this to say about the fat ass kicking the bucket and it brightened my day..."The Great Magnet is trying to balance out the Universe since it f'd up a few weeks ago with Bowie, Alan Rickman and Glenn Frey."
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Feb 14, 2016 - 03:01pm PT
Thanks Larry.

From a book I still enjoy

You have seen the private side of tenderness which all but the worst men have. As a king, it is the other side, the outer, that concerns us here.

Supreme Court Justices are the Kings that America should never have had.
Risk

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Feb 14, 2016 - 03:08pm PT
What will likely be most amusing is how the republicans will attempt to minimize their downside of Scalia's passing. Reducing their downside of his passing for them to zero is impossible. Under every scenario, they come out worse than if Scalia still lived. Start with:

Scalia was described as the intellectual anchor for the originalist and textualist position in the Court's conservative wing.
SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
Feb 14, 2016 - 03:19pm PT
So when do the conspiracy theories start?


Susan
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Feb 14, 2016 - 03:50pm PT
I have to admit that I "wondered" about his "being found dead" and no mention of what. I realize they need to do an autopsy, but with any found dead" headline, one just wonders.
Norton

Social climber
Feb 14, 2016 - 03:53pm PT
just read a report that said there will be no autopsy and that he died of an apparent
heart attack while sleeping, "natural causes" is listed
zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 14, 2016 - 04:18pm PT
So when do the conspiracy theories start?

Do you think Putin had him poisoned?

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Feb 14, 2016 - 04:37pm PT
First Vincent Foster and now Scalia...Clintons were behind it...Scalia knew too much about Benghazi..
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Denver CO
Feb 14, 2016 - 04:57pm PT
The report I read said he "finally succumbed to his own poisonous bile."
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Feb 14, 2016 - 05:35pm PT
Nice article, worth the peek. http://www.cnn.com/2016/02/14/opinions/david-axelrod-surprise-request-from-justice-scalia/index.html
looking sketchy there...

Social climber
Lassitude 33
Feb 14, 2016 - 05:41pm PT
I sincerely believe that we should consider this unfortunate event simply part of God's plan. If that is the case, isn't it reasonable to view this as His intention for a change in the Court?
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Feb 14, 2016 - 05:45pm PT
If Obama nominates a good candidate, in this game of political football, and this Senate rejects her, as part of the defense that they've already committed to playing, can the next president renominate that same person to the newly elected Senate, or would she be disqualified from consideration for this vacancy, since the previous Senate already rejected her?
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Feb 14, 2016 - 05:48pm PT
Nice of the Repubs to proactively reject ANY possible nominee to the Court. Just a mind experiment, but if Obama nominated Ted Cruz would the Repubs be so determined that they not consider anyone? They should have at least seen who would be put forward and judged him/her on merit. Well, at least the Repubs haven't injected politics into it.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Feb 14, 2016 - 06:16pm PT
Anyone who has been paying attention has known for a while that if Obama proposed the Republican agenda word for word.. the republicans would instantly become liberals in order to oppose him.

They are complete f*#king sellout peices of sh#t.

Obama should not nominate anyone so the people can make their voice heard in the election

OH REALLY MUTHERF*#KERS!! WHAT DO YOU THINK WE DID WHEN WE ELECTED OBAMA JUST FOR THIS POSSIBILITY?
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Feb 14, 2016 - 06:23pm PT
The President's elected term is 4 years, not 3.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Feb 14, 2016 - 06:40pm PT
Fascinating Blah. That'll teach me to believe what I read on the Internet :)

Still, if he did quote that, he was up to something....
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Feb 14, 2016 - 06:47pm PT
can the next president renominate that same person to the newly elected Senate, or would she be disqualified from consideration for this vacancy, since the previous Senate already rejected her?


From Wikipedia:
3 had formal votes on the nominations that were postponed.
One of these nominations was reconsidered after a change in Senate composition and confirmed.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Feb 14, 2016 - 06:53pm PT

No Popcorn.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Feb 14, 2016 - 08:07pm PT
No Popcorn.

No real beer, either.

Unless the beer at hand while you type politard sentiments onto Stuportoprope is over 8.0% ABV, your opinion will be discarded.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Feb 14, 2016 - 09:06pm PT
I read that Scalia believed that the constitution was a static document. A "dead" document, in his words. His belief was that the constitution could not be changed.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 14, 2016 - 09:15pm PT
So here is my prediction:

Obama will nominate "Sri" Srinivasan, who would be the first Indian-American to ascend the court.

There is no question that he is qualified, even from the Repg perspective.

He is currently a federal appeals court for the DC district. He was nominated by Obama in 2013.

He was approved by the Senate 97-0

So, if they say they won't vote on him, or he is unqualified, why did they vote for him the first time??????
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 14, 2016 - 09:27pm PT
I agree--good picks and strategy.

It's outrageous, not even considering a nominee. And for all the folks who say that democrats are equally, if not, more obstructionist, explain this.

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 14, 2016 - 09:34pm PT
That is a remarkable story by Axelrod.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Feb 14, 2016 - 09:48pm PT

And for all the folks who say that democrats are equally, if not, more obstructionist, explain this.

haven't the Demo's been for a long time a rebellion against the Conservative philosophy?


Who came first?? and Who should stay???
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 14, 2016 - 10:15pm PT
haven't the Demo's been for a long time a rebellion against the Conservative philosophy?

Both sides have opposed each other.

But the republicans have gone from opposing dem policies to abdicating their responsibility to govern. This failure to even consider the president's nominee is the latest, and it's inexcusable and deplorable.
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Feb 14, 2016 - 11:59pm PT
It is astonishing just how fast the GOP politicized the death of one of their own. Within minutes of the announcement of Scalia's death, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell said the Senate would not act on any Obama nominee for the Supreme Court. McConnell's preemptive rejection of any and all nominees is unprecedented in the history of the United States.

Way to go, Leader.

By contrast, Barack Obama, Hillary-Billary and Bernie Sanders all offered their condolences to Scalia's family. They've decorously refrained from publicly discussing the nation's gratitude for a new, progressive era for the Supreme Court.



The GOP is, truly, a party of politically opportunistic cannibals.
Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz joined that old buzzard, Mitch McConnell, in feasting on the still-warm carcass of Antonin Scalia.


"There comes a point in the last year of the president, especially in their second term, where you stop nominating" both Supreme Court justices and Court of Appeals judges.

— Marco Rubio on Sunday, February 14th, 2016 in comments on "Meet the Press"

RUBIO IS WRONG. READILY AVAILABLE FACTS IMMEDIATELY REFUTE HIS FALSE STATEMENT.



"It has been 80 years since a Supreme Court vacancy was nominated and confirmed in an election year," Cruz said. "There is a long tradition that you don't do this in an election year."

— Ted Cruz on Sunday, February 14th, 2016 in comments on "Meet the Press"

THERE IS NO SUCH "TRADITION" - SUPREME COURT VACANCIES ARE RARE, PERIOD.



They don't just lie, or get the math wrong - they make stuff up out of thin air. They say whatever they think a target audience wants to hear.

You would think that Rubio and Cruz, who have words to thank for their positions, would hire some competent speech coaches, or at least practice what they're going to say, before making inarticulate statements on national television. Then again, maybe they're just pandering to Trump's target audience, which is notorious for being grammatically-challenged.




Here are two FACTUAL traditions that both Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz, as United States Senators, know to be true:


THERE HAS NEVER BEEN AN INSTANCE WHEN A SITTING PRESIDENT DECLINED TO FILL A SUPREME COURT VACANCY WHEN IT OCCURRED DURING HIS TERM.


DURING THE PREVIOUS 152 YEARS, EVERY SUPREME COURT VACANCY DURING A PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION YEAR WAS FILLED THAT SAME YEAR.



Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz are liars and manipulators.
Their supporters are either sheep, asleep, stupid, mesmerized, or hypnotized.


I don't remember any Presidential election in my lifetime as having so many obviously false, immediately debunked statements being made by candidates.

These guys have no shame, no sense of decorum and no sense of what it means to lead by example. It's not a coincidence that the same candidates calling for deregulation (lawlessness) continually lie to the public.


Rubio and Cruz say they don't want their young children anywhere near Donald Trump's potty mouth. But, supposedly, they're OK with their children being exposed to their own self-serving, blatant lies.





SUPREME COURT NOMINATIONS DURING PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION YEARS - 1864 to PRESENT


nominee - - - nomination date - - - confirmation date


Abe Fortas - - - Jun 26, 1968 - - - withdrawn

Homer Thornberry - - - Jun 26, 1968 - - - withdrawn

Frank Murphy - - - Jan 4, 1940 - - - Jan 16, 1940

Benjamin Cardozo - - - Feb 15, 1932 - - - Feb 24, 1932

John Clarke - - - Jul 14, 1916 - - - Jul 24, 1916

Mahlon Pitney - - - Feb 19, 1912 - - - Mar 13, 1912

George Shiras, Jr. - - - Jul 19, 1892 - - - Jul 26, 1892

Melville Fuller - - - Apr 30, 1888 - - - Jul 20, 1888

William Woods - - - Dec 15, 1880 - - - Dec 21, 1880

Ward Hunt - - - Dec 3, 1872 - - - Dec 11, 1872

Salmon Chase - - - Dec 6, 1864 - - - Dec 6, 1864




Those facts are from the Senate's website, not from out of thin air:

http://www.senate.gov/pagelayout/reference/nominations/Nominations.htm



//There were no Supreme Court vacancies in 1968, but there were two failed nominations that year. Democratic President Lyndon Johnson nominated Associate Justice Abe Fortas in 1968 to replace Chief Justice Earl Warren, who wanted to retire. When the Republican-controlled Senate told Johnson that they would not confirm Fortas, Johnson withdrew Fortas' nomination. Earl Warren remained Chief Justice until he retired in 1969. Homer Thornberry was nominated in 1968 to fill the vacancy created when Fortas was elevated to Chief Justice, which didn't happen.

Supreme Court Justice Pierce Butler died on November 16, 1939. His seat at the Court was still vacant in 1940, when it was filled by Frank Murphy.//



EDIT: I forgot to add the two Supreme Court nominations in 1968 that occurred, even though there was no vacancy to fill. Earl Warren and Lyndon Johnson made a deal, see, and well, Strom Thurmond screwed them both out of what they wanted . . . . . .

I clarified that Murphy filled a seat in 1940 that became vacant in late 1939.

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Feb 15, 2016 - 05:19am PT
Great news!
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 15, 2016 - 05:35am PT
Gonna be interesting when the stock market opens on Tuesday...
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Feb 15, 2016 - 06:01am PT
Very informative posts,Tom and Splater.

http://samuel-warde.com/2016/02/elizabeth-warren-blasts-republican-obstructionism/

Ghost......LOL.

As far as beer north of 8%,"Not while I am drinking"
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 15, 2016 - 06:04am PT
Good post Tom. I like your list at the bottom.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Feb 15, 2016 - 06:54am PT
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 15, 2016 - 07:18am PT
If you've ever believed that people can disagree passionately about politics and still respect and care for each other as friends, the friendship of Justice Antonin Scalia and Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg was a comfort and an inspiration.

He was the Supreme Court's most outspoken conservative; she is its most outspoken liberal. But their friendship became famous, not just because of its odd-couple unexpectedness but because their mutual respect and affection for each other was obviously genuine.

They and their families spent New Year's Eve together every year. They rode together on an elephant in India (Scalia joked that Ginsburg betrayed her feminism by sitting behind him), and Scalia watched Ginsburg go parasailing in the south of France ("She's so light, you would think she would never come down. I would not do that").

So it's no surprise that of all the tributes to Justice Scalia, who died Saturday of an apparent heart attack at the age of 79, Justice Ginsburg's is uniquely moving. It's a tribute to Scalia as an interlocutor, a fellow opera lover — including a reference to the opera Scalia/Ginsburg: A (Gentle) Parody of Operatic Proportions, which debuted in 2015 — and a "best buddy."

Toward the end of the opera Scalia/Ginsburg, tenor Scalia and soprano Ginsburg sing a duet: 'We are different, we are one,' different in our interpretation of written texts, one in our reverence for the Constitution and the institution we serve. From our years together at the D.C. Circuit, we were best buddies. We disagreed now and then, but when I wrote for the Court and received a Scalia dissent, the opinion ultimately released was notably better than my initial circulation. Justice Scalia nailed all the weak spots—the 'applesauce' and 'argle bargle'—and gave me just what I needed to strengthen the majority opinion. He was a jurist of captivating brilliance and wit, with a rare talent to make even the most sober judge laugh. The press referred to his 'energetic fervor,' 'astringent intellect,' 'peppery prose,' 'acumen,' and 'affability,' all apt descriptions. He was eminently quotable, his pungent opinions so clearly stated that his words never slipped from the reader’s grasp.

Justice Scalia once described as the peak of his days on the bench an evening at the Opera Ball when he joined two Washington National Opera tenors at the piano for a medley of songs. He called it the famous Three Tenors performance. He was, indeed, a magnificent performer. It was my great good fortune to have known him as working colleague and treasured friend.

It's easy to mourn the lack of civility in contemporary American politics; politicians on both sides talk glowingly about the time when Ronald Reagan could invite Democratic House Speaker Tip O'Neill to the White House for a drink to work out a conflict. It's just as easy to say that civility is for people who don't have the courage of their convictions — that if people genuinely disagree about what is best for America, they shouldn't have to put that aside for the sake of small talk.

What makes Ginsburg's statement remarkable is that it shows how superficial both sides of the civility argument are.

The respect that Ginsburg's statement shows for Scalia's intellect — that she could trust him to point out the flaws in her arguments — also reveals a respect for her own, to know the difference between a genuine agreement of principle and an error that needed to be corrected. But more importantly, the statement shows that it's okay for people in politics to spend time cultivating other interests — like opera — and that those can be a genuine basis for friendship in their own right.

Arguably, that's easier for appointed judges than it is for elected officials. It's still rare. And it's still worth celebrating.

It's not just atypical in contemporary American politics for people to be both ideological adversaries and close personal friends. It's atypical for contemporary American political figures to even be close personal friends with each other. Justices Scalia and Ginsburg showed just how much everyone else was missing. That won't be as significant to Scalia's legacy as his jurisprudence, but maybe it should.

http://www.vox.com/2016/2/14/10990156/scalia-ginsburg-friends
MisterE

Gym climber
Small Town with a Big Back Yard
Feb 15, 2016 - 07:34am PT
http://www.theonion.com/graphic/justice-scalia-dead-following-30-year-battle-socia-52356
LilaBiene

Trad climber
Technically...the spawning grounds of Yosemite
Feb 15, 2016 - 07:40am PT
Against all better sense of reason, I can't help myself...

The only occasion I recall ever nodding in assent (at least in part) to something that Justice Scalia wrote (dissenting) was in the Brand X decision. (I'm a technology geek.)

He authored countless opinions with which I vehemently disagree.

Yet I find it profoundly sad that the world has suddenly lost such a brilliant legal mind and man. If you don't keep your mind open to listening to those who disagree with you, you lose perspective and become entrenched...fixated on being right in your opinion. Many of my closest, longest-known friends are actually on the exact opposite end of the political spectrum from me -- I respect them as human beings and for their abilities to articulate perspectives I may not have considered otherwise.

I had the good fortune to hear Justice Scalia live, in person, twice. The first was during a speech that he gave when I was in school (the man knew the Tolkien trilogy). The second time was during a Supreme Court oral argument on the 4th amendment (Kyllo v. US). (Justice Scalia went on to author the majority opinion, finding that the use of technology by police to detect heat emanation from a house was a "search" (based on recollection -- don't quote me on it).) Perhaps hearing him speak outside of the confines of the Supreme Court humanized him for me.

Nevertheless, he was a person, and an incredibly funny, bright and warm one, at that. There's already so much rancor being spewed about in the race for the presidency... My thoughts and prayers are with his family and friends.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Feb 15, 2016 - 07:43am PT
It seems that some liberals in the media are now fauning over Scalia. Why? Because he was a friend of Ginsburg?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Feb 15, 2016 - 08:28am PT
Great post, Tom.

Too bad it won't be understood...or worse, completely ignored...by the FauxNews RepubDroids.
monolith

climber
state of being
Feb 15, 2016 - 08:46am PT
Go thru the list of last year of term nominees and you will see there were no lame duck presidential supreme court nominations, since presidential term limits didn't happen till after FDR.

Obama's nomination will be a first in this regard.

Frank Murphy - - - Jan 4, 1940 - - - Jan 16, 1940
Benjamin Cardozo - - - Feb 15, 1932 - - - Feb 24, 1932
John Clarke - - - Jul 14, 1916 - - - Jul 24, 1916
Mahlon Pitney - - - Feb 19, 1912 - - - Mar 13, 1912
George Shiras, Jr. - - - Jul 19, 1892 - - - Jul 26, 1892
Melville Fuller - - - Apr 30, 1888 - - - Jul 20, 1888
William Woods - - - Dec 15, 1880 - - - Dec 21, 1880
Ward Hunt - - - Dec 3, 1872 - - - Dec 11, 1872
Salmon Chase - - - Dec 6, 1864 - - - Dec 6, 1864

The three after the election were filled by the same party of the current and next term.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Feb 15, 2016 - 08:59am PT
My condolences to the squashed social justice. RIP? I hope he rolls on a spit in hell for the rest of eternity. Well, maybe not that long, but you get my point.

Scalia? Good riddance. He was one of the worst jurists ever with the exception of Thomas who is without a doubt one among the ranks of the worst of the worst to ever sit on that lofty bench.

Although the fact that Ginsberg and Scalia were close friends does lend some credibility to his intellect. I have a lot of respect for Ruth.
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Feb 15, 2016 - 09:21am PT
Right Ken. If Obama nominates Srinivasan as part of a political strategy to demonstrate republican obstructionism and the Senate that previously confirmed him to a judgeship then rejects him, can Bernie or Hillary renominate him when the new President/Senate is seated?

Our political reaction to the politicians playing politics is to be outraged at the politicians for playing politics. Us though, we're good.
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Feb 15, 2016 - 09:22am PT
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Feb 15, 2016 - 10:31am PT
Never speak ill of the dead. He had a good run, lived a long life, Supreme Court Justice, etc. That's a resume.

Sure throws a monkey wrench into that plan to kill the teacher's unions, though.
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Feb 15, 2016 - 10:54am PT
I mostly disagreed with Scalia's decisions. I wish he had retired a decade ago, or before.

Oh, well. Better late than never.

Scalia, and his foul ilk can be directly blamed for our new economic paradigm, which involves plundering society, however possible, to enrich the already too-rich.

The people, and even the lower courts said that unlimited campaign spending by corporations would be a disaster. But, Scalia, et al, ruled that:


Money talks.

Talk is speech.

Speech is protected by the First Amendment.

Therefore, it is unconstitutional to prohibit or limit political bribery.




Citizens United v. FEC, guaranteeing corporate free-speech rights (a euphamism for unlimited lobbying, bribing and campaign spending) is going to wind up being the death of America.

Right now, there is virtually no way to track where super PAC is coming from. The law was intentionally structured to permit clever donors to conceal themselves behind LLCs and other legal artifices.

Instead of ISIS and Al Qaeda, Homeland Security should be investigating how much foreign money is pouring into those super PACS.




Right now, I can only think of one decision Scalia made that I agree with.


KELO V. THE CITY OF NEW LONDON


Lowe courts upheld that government-enforced seizure of one private party's property (land), and tranfer of ownership to a second private party was within the scope of the eminent domain provisions of the Fifth Amendment.



Stevens, Kennedy, Souter, Bader-Ginsburg and Breyer voted to uphold the lower court's ruling.

Rehnquist, Scalia, O'Conner and Thomas voted to overturn the decision.

The court ruled, 5-4, that it was lawful for the corporation to force private homeowners to sell, at a price determined by the corporation, so that the corporation could use the property for a private commercial development project.


I thought the Wikipedia page had been vandalized when I first saw that the liberal left-wingers voted to allow the eminent domain seizure, and that it was the neo-con right-wingers who opposed it.

That, to me, seemed totally opposite the typical neo-con vision for America, which is to favor the corporations and fat-cats over everyone else.


Ostensibly, the argument was that if the property tax base increased, and the "blight" of the rustic beach cottages was eliminated, society as a whole would benefit; ergo, the property would be seized for a "public purpose".

Kelo, et al, were forced to sell their homes, which were razed. The hotel project was abandoned before any construction took place. The property remains an empty, vacant plot to his day. So far, the previous owners haven't regained ownership, despite the corporation abandoning the project. More likely, the previous owners were not paid enough, back then, to allow them to buy back their own raw land.

The corporation probably paid them sixty cents on the dollar, and now will only sell the property back to them for a full dollar on the dollar.


rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Feb 15, 2016 - 11:08am PT
Get back on that ladder and mind your own business...rj
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Feb 15, 2016 - 11:16am PT
"and you will see there were no lame duck presidential supreme court nominations, since presidential term limits didn't happen till after FDR.
Obama's nomination will be a first in this regard."

Jan 1 is an arbitrary cutoff.
As I pointed out earlier, Reagan was a lame duck within 1 year of the next election when he nominated Anthony Kennedy on November 11, 1987, who was then confirmed by the DEMOCRAT led Senate to fill the vacancy on February 3, 1988, which is 9 months before the 1988 election.
bergbryce

climber
East Bay, CA
Feb 15, 2016 - 11:21am PT
Regarding the Citizens United ruling and the current presidential election, the super PACs have bet on the shittiest horses in the race. The Koch bros put their money on Scott Walker who didn't even make it to 2016. Bush and Clinton are the other biggest candidates still recieving big PAC money (that I know of, Rubio might be getting some too, not sure.) But Trump and Sanders have actually made the Citizens United ruling almost a moot point this election. I think this is more a sign of a frustrated electorate than anything. But I find it heartening and comical that all the cash in the world can't get the preferred politicians to the top of the tickets right now.

I always wondered too what that cash is used for anyways. What do they do buy radio and tv ads? Those things are worthless. Have they ever swayed a single voter?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 15, 2016 - 12:00pm PT
Tom, your nasty statements say a lot more about you, than Scalia.


Right Ken. If Obama nominates Srinivasan as part of a political strategy to demonstrate republican obstructionism and the Senate that previously confirmed him to a judgeship then rejects him, can Bernie or Hillary renominate him when the new President/Senate is seated?

Of course they could.

However, your description of an Obama nomination as a political strategy seems odd to me. The Constitution clearly calls for him to do it as part of his job. The only obvious reason not to, is if there is not a reasonable amount of time for the Senate to perform ITS Constitutionally mandated job of "consent". Clearly there is.

I suppose that you could say that any action mandated by the Constitution is a political action....after all, it is a political document!
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Feb 15, 2016 - 02:39pm PT
All the Republicans can do, at this point, is try to intimidate President Obama with various, non-existent "rules" and "traditions". They can put forward tenuous, illogical arguments about why Obama should be the first President, in over 150 years, to not nominate a successor to a vacant Supreme Court seat in an election year.

For example, the Republicans are saying that Obama is a "lame duck" President, in his last year of office, and is (What? Incompetent? Nefarious? Irresponsible?). McConnell, Grassley and Co. say that Obama will never have to face the voters again, so he shouldn't do his job.

Why only the last year in office? Why not the last 18 months? Why not the last two years? Or the last three years? Why not the entire second term? Obama hasn't had to face the voters since early November, 2012. Why not start the lame duck paralysis right then?

The lame duck "Thurmond Rule" argument is arbitrary and ridiculous. If Scalia had died last Halloween, the situation would be about the same as when Reagan appointed Anthony Kennedy, who was confirmed 97-0 by the Senate.



The absurdity of the Republicans' official position, as put forward themselves, is readily apparent, as shown here:


Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Chuck Grassley says,

“The fact of the matter is that it’s been standard practice over the last nearly 80 years that Supreme Court nominees are not nominated and confirmed during a presidential election year.

This is the same thing that Ted Cruz said on Meet the Press on 2-14-2016. Grassley's so-called standard practice (Cruz called it a long tradition) is sometimes known as the Thurmond Rule. It is not a law or a rule, at all; the name is simply a vanity-homage to a successful political maneuver in 1968.


According to the Senate website page for Supreme Court Nominations, and other reliable sources:


In the last 100 years, there have been THREE instances of Supreme Court vacancies during a Presidential election year. In the last 50 years, there have been NO vacancies during an election year. NONE.

The last time there was a vacancy in the Supreme Court during a Presidential election year was 1940, 76 years ago.



So, the Grassley-Cruz Interpretation/Justification for the Thurmond Rule goes like this:


For the past 80 (76) years, no President has nominated an appointee to fill a vacancy on the Supreme Court during a Presidential election year.

This indicates that there is a long-standing tradition that the President can't nominate an appointee to fill a vacancy on the Supreme Court in an Presidential election year. Both parties have adhered to this tradition, since the Rule has never been broken in 80 (76) years.

Therefore, President Obama MUST refrain from nominating an appointee to fill the present vacancy on the Supreme Court. Otherwise, he will be in violation of the standard practice, the long tradition, the Thurmond Rule.


Even the ancient Greeks would have been able to see right through this bit of fallacious reasoning. It is both amusing and distressing that the ostensibly intelligent and educated people in the Senate (many of them attorneys, whose intellectual specialty is logic) would believe this Thurmond Rule argument to be worthy of dissemination to the public at large, let alone consider it a mandate that constrains the President.


The Thurmond Rule is fallacious, null and void for the following, simple reason:


THERE HAS BEEN NO OPPORTUNITY, IN THE PAST 76 YEARS, FOR ANY PRESIDENT TO FILL A VACANCY ON THE SUPREME COURT DURING A PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION YEAR.

THE LAST TIME THERE WAS A VACANCY ON THE SUPREME COURT DURING A PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION YEAR WAS 1940, WHICH WAS 76 YEARS AGO.


The reason no President has "broken" the "Thurmond Rule" is because there hasn't been any opportunity to break it.

There is no "long tradition". There is no "standard practice". And there is no "Thurmond Rule". Like a great deal of what the GOP is offering this campaign season, it's a bunch of inane nonsense. All the GOP offers is a very poorly constructed piece of fallacious "logic" that has no place except in a general-education course at the local high school.

McConnell, Grassley, Cruz and Rubio might as well be talking about a "standard procedure" in which Presidents are forbidden from having a tumor removed from inside their mouth. Grover Cleveland had this done, in 1893. Since then?

For the past 123 years, The long tradition of the "Cleveland Rule" has prohibited all U.S. Presidents from boarding a ship, surreptitiously, and having a surgeon remove a cancerous tumor, several teeth and part of the upper jaw from the mouth.

Similarly, Ted Cruz might go on Meet the Press next week, and pontificate on the necessity that Obama not violate a Republican-mandated "Yalta Rule". The rule forbids any U.S. President from traveling to Yalta for a purpose of conferring with Joseph Stalin and Winston Churchill. The rationale for the Yalta Rule is self-evident to people like McConnel, Grassley and Cruz: there is a long tradition (80 years, according to Ted Cruz) of U.S. Presidents ignoring voices that tell them to go to Yalta to meet with Stalin and Churchill.


Cruz might just be crazy enough to say, on national television, Obama can go to Yalta and see Stalin and Churchill after the election is over and he is out of office. But, not now.

John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Feb 15, 2016 - 03:00pm PT
I've heard, from multiple sources, that Cruz is a liar.

I don't get it. The huge numbers, attending the events of outsiders, would indicate, the electorate is sick of these silly games. Don't these moron Republicans see that? Easy for McConnell to say, he has 4 more years, IIRC.

I may have to revise my prediction.
guido

Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
Feb 15, 2016 - 03:15pm PT
DD

Ditto Donini
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Feb 15, 2016 - 03:18pm PT
Never speak ill of the dead.

So true, so true.

But, is he really dead when his voting record and opinions will live with us forever?
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Feb 15, 2016 - 03:39pm PT
As long as someone remembers us, we are not dead.
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Feb 15, 2016 - 03:41pm PT
Ok thanks Ken.

The headline on Huffingtonpost is:

White house calculus: which nominee imposes greatest cost on intransigent senators?

On the republican side, the first thought is to obstruct the nomination. On the democratic side, the first thought is which nominee imposes the greatest cost on obstructionist republicans. While we prefer not to sell it to ourselves that way, my experience is that my sh#t stinks too, even if it's not politically advantageous for me to admit it.

But if we want to live in an environment where the politicians admit that their sh#t stinks, maybe we need to expect the same from ourselves.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 15, 2016 - 03:50pm PT
Interstingly, on Obama's side, I think his main interest is in appointing a GREAT justice.
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Feb 15, 2016 - 03:54pm PT
I'd imagine Obama will nominate a moderate, most likely a woman or minority. And if the Senate refuses to move forward, not only will that be used in the Presidential election, but it will be used in all the Senate elections (and there's a bunch in states that went for Obama).

So the GOP is taking a risk if they filibuster a moderate. They could end up with a President Clinton or Sanders and Democratic Senate. Which would mean a strong possibility of a liberal instead of a moderate.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Feb 15, 2016 - 03:55pm PT
Not one of the brilliant legal minds here, or on any news that I've seen have pointed out a key word in the Constitution on this matter.

...and he shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint...Judges of the supreme Court

It doesn't say he has this power which can be exercised if he so chooses, there is no choice, he must nominate and appoint, whether or not he even wants to. In my industry, failure to follow CFR regulations containing the word "shall" are grounds for prosecution.

What would delight me most is for the President to nominate a centrist, then with the election approaching and polls showing a huge swing to the left, begin rumors of a more radical choice and watch the Senate scramble to nominate the first.

TE
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Feb 15, 2016 - 03:56pm PT
Right, on the republican side, their main interest is the same thing :-) But the way to get to it, from either side, is to navigate through all this shitty politics, as usual.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Feb 15, 2016 - 04:03pm PT
I actually liked Scalia, in spite of the fact that I didn't agree with him on most matters. He was witty. He was articulate and clear about where he stood.
I don't like any of the Republican candidates. I don't like anything I hear from this moronic Republican party. I'd be embarrassed to be a Republican. Thank God but for the grace of God that could be me (Einstein's God, btw).
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Feb 15, 2016 - 04:24pm PT
TradEddie,I like the way you think!

Cheers.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Feb 15, 2016 - 04:32pm PT
How about if he nominates a good legal mind, rather than a political hack of either persuasion?
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Feb 15, 2016 - 04:55pm PT
For me, I think that the person they nominate will be a good legal mind and not a political hack whether it's a republican president or a democratic president doing the nominating. The question for me is more whether the politicians in the White House are going to use the nomination process, and the politicians in the senate are going to use the confirmation process, for political gain, and I think the answer is yes on both sides (regardless of how much we want to confirm "us" as good and condemn "them" as bad).
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 15, 2016 - 05:08pm PT
How about if he nominates a good legal mind, rather than a political hack of either persuasion?

I think it is the lame duck that has the best chance to nominate a brilliant mind. Pretty much no downside.

But Obama has, so far, appointed stellar legal minds.

Like Elena Kagan..........first choice of Scalia
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Feb 15, 2016 - 05:56pm PT
I hate to say it, but good riddance. I really enjoyed Con Law during law school but, even as a second year law student, found his opinions to be intellectually dishonest. His other great failing (apart from his arrogance) was his failure to recognize his own conflict of interest and willingness to raise questions of his and the Court's impartiality by accepting gifts, such as hunting trips, from parties who had matters before the court.

John Duffield's comments about Obama's overly liberal appointments is just, let me be polite and say, misinformed. Democrats nominations are generally far more centrist than those selected by Rebuplicans, some of whom come to the bench with well known, rigid approaches. Alito, whose nickname before being appointed was "Scalito", is a notable example. William Rehnquist was also apponted having written extensively of his disdain for 4th Amendment guarantees afforded to criminal defendants.
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Feb 15, 2016 - 06:25pm PT
Obama can make the appointment while the Senate is adjourned.


As long as Obama's choice is reasonable, and not some super-far left fanatic, confirmation during the next Senate session would seem assured.

If the GOP controls the Senate, they would look like fools trying to block a reasonable justice, already on the Bench, who had been serving effectively.

If the GOP loses control of the Senate, then there is no confirmation issue at all. The confirmation would be virtually assured.



It is entirely possible that the Republicans will keep the Senate in continuous session, and never adjourn.

They have to adjourn for at least four days in order for Obama to make a recess appointment.

crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Feb 15, 2016 - 06:41pm PT

If the GOP controls the Senate, they would look like fools trying to block a reasonable justice, already on the Bench, who had been serving effectively.


And fools they are. I see little chance a nominee will be confirmed in an election year, despite history.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Feb 15, 2016 - 07:16pm PT
Look a ledge turd.


zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 15, 2016 - 07:20pm PT
It really is too bad that Wolman Jack has passed on.

Wolfman Jack for Supreme Court Justice.



He was black, voted repub and watched more porn than Thomas and Angela Davis combined.



Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Denver CO
Feb 15, 2016 - 07:56pm PT
Justice Rehnquist - now there was a pathetic sight, lying on his deathbed in the hospital, refusing to give up his seat on the court until the bitter end. The office had to be pried from his cold, dead, fingers. He was also a hypocrite to the core. His monotone voice was the product of a serious drug addiction, while the Rehnquist Court's drug-war rulings were surpassed only by some of the extremes of the war on terrorism. The only ideologues on the court now are really Alito and Thomas. If another moderate like Roberts is added, it would be the best Supreme Court in 30 years.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Feb 15, 2016 - 08:11pm PT
http://www.wnd.com/2016/02/michael-savage-was-scalia-murdered/



Hey,This is the internet........lol.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 15, 2016 - 08:17pm PT
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 15, 2016 - 09:16pm PT
The President would be foolish to attempt a "recess appointment", particularly since he had the Supreme Court reject his most recent attempt to do so, rejected 9-0!

This would feed into the "he keeps acting unconstitutional!" narrative, and embolden the Repug base.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 15, 2016 - 09:18pm PT
It will be interesting to see if MacConnel's(sp?) proclaimation that he will not allow a vote, will backfire, like Kevin McCarthy did as he was about to be made Speaker.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 15, 2016 - 09:33pm PT
Had they simply held hearings, then rejected his nominees, they might have gotten away with it. But outside the loony rabid right wing base, openly stating that they won't even consider any nominee will backfire. They overreached big time.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Feb 16, 2016 - 12:01am PT
Saw an interesting profile of Scalia on Charlie Rose tonight.

Besides the remembrances of several colleagues, there were two interviews with Scalia (2008, 2012) with insights into his Originalist view vs. the 'Living Constitution' view. Worth a watch.
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Feb 16, 2016 - 01:02am PT
Obama promised McConnell, Grassley, et al that he wouldn't appoint and seat anyone to the Supreme Court while the Senate was adjourned.

Obama promises no recess appointment to Supreme Court while the Senate is adjourned


I was kinda hoping Obama would use the recess appointment. If McConnell becomes too much of an irritantion, Obama might do it, anyway. There are about nine Senate recesses scheduled this year.


Eisenhower, a Republican, used a recess to appoint a Democrat (a Roman Catholic, no less) to very good effect in the 1856 election. Ike appointed Brennen three weeks before the general election, and probably picked up some swing votes. The only Senator who opposed Brennen's confirmation the next year was Joseph McCarthy.




This may be the most important political event of the last decade, or two decades.

Since 1975, Republicans have seated nine justices, and Democrats have seated only four.



dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 16, 2016 - 06:17am PT
Some conservatives are also urging senators to resist Obama's nefarious attempts to "pack the court." Well, if Obama is a court packer by appointing three justices, including one in his final year, then so was Reagan.
zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 16, 2016 - 07:13am PT


10 conspiracy theories people are making up about the death of Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia

...

6. Leonard Nimoy, who played Spock on "Star Trek," did it, according to the conspiracy website Hard Dawn.



http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/us-world/article/People-are-making-up-conspiracy-theories-about-6831775.php#photo-9006678
...
timy

Sport climber
Durango
Feb 16, 2016 - 07:14am PT
http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/supreme-court/how-obama-could-win-supreme-court-battle-even-if-republicans-n519121

New Senate takes office Jan. 3. President leaves Office Jan 21!
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Feb 16, 2016 - 09:06am PT
From Tom's link:

Analysis:

The President has more than a year left in his term of office. He cannot stop being President and abandon his duties just because that would be convenient for the Republican agenda right now.

Additionally one of the three branches of the American government cannot be paralyzed by a 4-4 for more than a year because it suits conservative interests. The President has a responsibility to the American people to nominate a replacement as soon as possible.





Obama should use whatever tactic it takes to fulfill his responsibility as POTUS, including a recess appointment. It's stunning to me that he might even consider not doing so, given the Republican's 7 year history of obstructionism at all costs (unless it serves their own selfish agenda).

Get that damn Justice in there, Obama.




Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Feb 16, 2016 - 10:00am PT
The presidential election is clearly important...I think the senate races are even more so. Fun reading:

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/senate-races/228020-10-senators-who-could-lose-in-2016
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Feb 16, 2016 - 10:03am PT
Some conservatives are also urging senators to resist Obama's nefarious attempts to "pack the court." Well, if Obama is a court packer by appointing three justices, including one in his final year, then so was Reagan.


Reagan appointed four. So did Nixon. The Republicans have overwhelmingly appointed more justices in the past 50 years, and the Court has reflected that right-leaning bias.



Since 1968 and Nixon, Republican Presidents have appointed 13 justices.

In that same era, Democratic Presidents have appointed only 4 justices.



Now that the pendulum is about to swing back (so the the appointments ratio is only 2.5 to 1, instead of 3 to 1), the Republicans cry foul. They're closing ranks, and mustering all their resources. They want to command the President to relinquish the nomination control over to them.

The most hilarious, for me, is that the GOP leadership has exhumed the long-dead corpse of Strom Thurmond, and are attempting to jolt it back to life, like a Capitol Hill Frankenstein monster, to use as muscle against Obama.



The attitude of the Republicans is just disgusting, on so many levels. I know that many Democrats are just as bad, but when I read about rampant malfeasance, 90-plus% of the time the offenders identify as Republican.

The great Republican myth about deregulation being an economic panacea is about to see a new day of reckoning. The social experiment that began with Nixon, and accelerated with Reagan has been a dismal failure. Even the GOP's own ranks see that it's been a failure - the Trump Show is a perfect indicator of that.


Deregulation is the same as lawlessness. People invented civilization so that they could live in a world of laws, not in a world of lawlessness.

With a rational, balanced High Court, we at least have a chance to claw back some of the excessive gains made by the international elite classes.


Go Kamala Harris!




A CEO, a union delegate and a blue-collar worker are sitting around a table. There is a plate with a dozen cookies in the middle.

The CEO grabs 11 of the cookies, eats a few, and stuffs the rest in his pockets, breaking them all into crumbs that his laundry servant will throw away later.

The CEO then turns to the worker, points to the last cookie on the plate, and says, "Watch our for that union guy. He's trying to take your cookie!"

rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Feb 16, 2016 - 10:30am PT
Justice Thomas always followed Scalia. We can only hope he continues to do so. he he
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Feb 16, 2016 - 10:47am PT
Both Obama and the Senate are acting as provided in the Constitution. I find it amusing, though, how both sides forget how quickly they were making the opposite arguments. It simply shows how much expediency, rather than principle, determines contemporary politics.

John
Norton

Social climber
Feb 16, 2016 - 10:51am PT
my understanding from doing a little reading is that if there is any advantage to
the court remaining with only 8 justices, that advantage favors the political left

because, lower appellant courts decisions will stand on the SCOTUS 4-4 ties
and there are a few important cases coming up that are not likely to be overturned

it now takes a 5-3 vote to overturn and also for new rulings, seems more of a fair,
or more of a majority figure to me.....?

if so, the GOP may ending up not liking what they think they want

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/02/13/how_scalia_s_death_effects_the_term_s_biggest_cases.html

John, would be interested in your thoughts on this?
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 16, 2016 - 10:56am PT
Especially the both sides would be doing it argument that John makes.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Feb 16, 2016 - 11:01am PT
Both Obama and the Senate are acting as provided in the Constitution. I find it amusing, though, how both sides forget how quickly they were making the opposite arguments. It simply shows how much expediency, rather than principle, determines contemporary politics.

John


Exactly.

My thoughts are that the Repubs in the Senate should let appointments be proposed. Shoot down the ones that don't past muster. That will probably be everyone Obama proposes, but it would be perfectly Constitutional and within the legal/ethical domain of the Senate.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 16, 2016 - 11:07am PT
My thoughts too, bluering.
Norton

Social climber
Feb 16, 2016 - 11:09am PT
also, IF the GOP does not allow a court appointment through regular Constitutional channels, then they run the huge risk that President Obama appoints whoever he want during the 17 days of next January "option"

this seems like the Shut Down the Government Republican threat, they HAVE to fold
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Feb 16, 2016 - 11:14am PT
So, none of you Dem's have been asked via email to sign a petition to " tell Republicans to stop playing politics with the Supreme Court"? I wonder if this kind of stuff ever influences much of anything or is just perceived as more noise?
Norton

Social climber
Feb 16, 2016 - 11:18am PT
Well, my wife is a Dem and not gotten any such emails

and I am a registered Republicsn and also no emails
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Feb 16, 2016 - 11:21am PT
Why aren't you keen on a recess appointment, dirt?

Too much political blowback, or setting the stage for Repubs to reciprocate?
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Feb 16, 2016 - 11:21am PT
I'm registered Republican and I get them. Makes for a really messy email box, all the stuff I get from the far right and left...


fyi; That email was from the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Feb 16, 2016 - 11:21am PT
John, would be interested in your thoughts on this?

I agree, Norton, that the 4-4 tie favors the left currently, because every case the SCOTUS is hearing this term is not before the court as a matter of right. Rather, they are before the court because a majority of the court agreed to hear the case (i.e. granted a writ of certiorari), or agreed to issue a stay of the challenged rule.

In the cases most important to the left this term, the granting of the writ usually implied a reversal of a circuit court decision in the left position's favor. I'm thinking particularly of the California case requiring teachers to pay union dues, even if they don't belong to the union and oppose its politics; and, possibly, the cases involving the EPA power plant rules and case challenging the general amnesty for illegal aliens as an exercise of prosecutorial discretion. A 4-4 tie leaves in place the decision from which the appeal was taken.

I'm not so sure what a 17-day appointment could accomplish, other than in a case where a need for a stay arises.

John
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 16, 2016 - 11:26am PT
Apogee, I don't think that I've opined on recess appointments.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Feb 16, 2016 - 11:37am PT
So....thoughts?
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 16, 2016 - 11:47am PT
I guess I'm against it. I can see the argument justifying such an appointment as necessary, given that congress has completely shirked one of its most important duties, i.e., to consider court appointments. But I think for something as big as a court appointment the process should be followed. The court already has a trust problem, and the last thing it needs is to be viewed even more as a political instrument. I also think the administration should provide a clear contrast to the shenanigans that the senate is pulling.
perswig

climber
Feb 16, 2016 - 11:53am PT
Sen. Hatch did himself and his party no favors during his interview on NPR this AM with David Greene. Pretty much said that no matter the validity of the nominee, he would feel obligated to stonewall; also suggested that if he himself were nominated, Democrats would be anxiously anticipating his demise as well. Awkward and uncomfortable exchange for both of them, it seemed.

http://www.npr.org/2016/02/16/466898534/hatch-its-not-the-time-to-have-a-battle-over-a-supreme-court-nominee


Dale
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Feb 16, 2016 - 12:13pm PT
A recess appointment doesn't bypass the need for Senate confirmation. It merely delays it, and allows the appointee to serve prior to confirmation. There is nothing especially nefarious about it, although it has an air of political maneuvering.

There are a dozen pros and as many cons to using it.


Since the Senate leadership has acted childishly, and declared that every candidate Obama might select is unacceptable, a recess appointment could be the right thing to do.


People already think - and know - that the courts in America are becoming more and more politicized. If Obama skillfully used a recess appointment to bypass an intransigent Senate, the public might applaud the move as pragmaticism over fanaticism.

Yes, the conservatives would whine and bitch and moan about how unfair that would be. But, they always complain when the the playing field, tilted in their favor, starts to level out a tiny bit.



the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Feb 16, 2016 - 12:22pm PT
Obama should nominate a moderate that's been unanimously confirmed for a lower court. Republicans will not allow a vote. It will backfire just like the government shutdown fiascos. Dems will be motivated to go to the polls. More Independents will realize the current Repubs are obstructionist and fanatical and vote dem.

The Repubs need to lose a few more elections until they finally realize they need to move towards the center. Some will realize compromise is what makes government work, but most will just do it to win elections. Unfortunately until that happens I think both parties will go towards the extremes which is bad for most people and the country.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Feb 16, 2016 - 12:44pm PT
There are at least two Justices that are on the short list that fit those criteria, I believe.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Feb 16, 2016 - 12:48pm PT
I agree, Norton, that the 4-4 tie favors the left currently, because every case the SCOTUS is hearing this term is not before the court as a matter of right. Rather, they are before the court because a majority of the court agreed to hear the case (i.e. granted a writ of certiorari), or agreed to issue a stay of the challenged rule.


A technical correction:
A grant of cert does not require the vote of a majority of the Court; rather, it requires four votes. It's a weird, non-intuitive rule that the Court just made up--it has no basis in the Constitution or any law, and if you don't like it, that's too bad--remember the Court is not accountable to anyone or any thing, they just do whatever they want.

At least legal giants like Scalia told the American people that Court was usurping their power, and tried to restrain it. That's why the libs hated him--the libs are basically statists who want to impose a top down model of control on us, the People (with them controlling the top of course).

Scalia believed in a real democracy, with all that entails, including that sometimes the People make laws that the liberal elite don't like. Now if the People tried to make a law that was truly against the real Constitution (the one written down and enacted by the People, not the one invented by the libs), Scalia would find such a law to be unconstitutional and strike it down. That's what happened in the Citizens United decision, where the libs tried to take away our right to free speech, which is protected by the First Amendment to the Constitution, and in Scalia's most excellent Heller decision, where he prevented the liberal legislature from violating the Constitution by infringing our right to bear arms, which is protected by the Second Amendment.
But if the real Constitution just doesn't say something about a subject, such as abortion or sodomy, then the legislatures elected by the People are free to make whatever laws they see fit.

Remember that Scalia never in his life voted for to restrict anyone's ability to have an abortion or to engage in sodomy--he simply voted to allow legislatures to legislate as they saw fit on those subjects because they are outside the scope of the Constitution.

What a wonderful philosophy and a wonderful man--we should all take a moment to give our deepest thanks for what he did for our country.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Feb 16, 2016 - 12:53pm PT
Well, after watching the Charlie Rose program last night (and the interviews with Scalia), I'm a bit more inclined to agree with your appreciation, blah.


But on this point...

"...the libs are basically statists who want to impose a top down model of control on us, the People (with them controlling the top of course)."

...your victimization is showing.
jstan

climber
Feb 16, 2016 - 12:59pm PT
The republican requirement that all their people religiously follow the party line is strong justification
for voting a straight Democratic ticket. There will be no "good" republicans.

If someone is on the republican ticket, you know what you will get.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 16, 2016 - 01:10pm PT
Maybe there will be senate hearings after all?

Senator Grassley, chair of the senate judiciary committee, is softening his earlier stance:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/02/17/us/politics/senator-charles-grassley-hearings-supreme-court-nominee.html?_r=0
looking sketchy there...

Social climber
Lassitude 33
Feb 16, 2016 - 01:11pm PT
Interesting that it took this long for the conspiracy nuts to take up the Scalia death.

Conspiracy theories that Justice Antonin Scalia was murdered on Saturday are circling the internet.

The predominantly right-wing conspiracy theorists who believe foul play might have been involved point out that Scalia's cause of death has not been officially determined, as an autopsy was not ordered.

Some have noted that Scalia, who died at 79, was pronounced dead over the phone and was allegedly found later with a pillow over his head, while others point out that Scalia had declined a security detail for his weekend visit to the Cibolo Creek Ranch in Texas.

The theories first began to swirl after John Poindexter, who owns the ranch Scalia was staying at, said he found the jurist under a pillow, although he looked "as if he was taking a nap. "

"We discovered the judge in bed, a pillow over his head. His bedclothes were unwrinkled," he told the San Antonio Express-News.

Scalia was alone at the time of his death because he had declined a security detail from US marshals, which provide security for Supreme Court justices.

GOP presidential front-runner and business mogul Donald Trump is among those who have fanned flames on the theory.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Feb 16, 2016 - 01:18pm PT
I find the comments about "following the party line" interesting, considering that Republican-appointed justices have broken ranks on 5-4 decisions, but justices appointed by Democrats have not, at least since Kennedy appointed Byron White.

I agree with your evaluation of Scalia, Blahblah. The blowback from your critics doesn't surprise me, though. Statism and freedom seem to be in the eyes of the beholder. Perhaps that's why the left doesn't read "Congress shall not" the same way Justice Scalia did.

Also, I know it takes four votes to grant cert. It takes a majority to issue a stay, however, and two of the cases to which I referred (the EPA power plant and immigration amnesty cases) were stayed prior to the rulings of lower courts.

John
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Feb 16, 2016 - 01:24pm PT
The Fet +1
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Feb 16, 2016 - 01:30pm PT
I find the comments about "following the party line" interesting, considering that Republican-appointed justices have broken ranks on 5-4 decisions, but justices appointed by Democrats have not, at least since Kennedy appointed Byron White.

Excellent point, and to add to it, remember that one of the lockstep liberal "4" votes of recent SCOTUS infamy was the dreaded turncoat Souter, appointed by Bush 41, and another was Stevens, appointed by Ford.
It's not just that Repub appointed justices vote with the libs, some of them were the libs!
Kennedy is flip-flopper who often votes with the libs, and even Chief Justice Roberts has his moments of weakness.

I think the Repubs have mostly learned their lesson, which the Dems seemed to learn decades before--I cannot think of a Democrat appointed Justice in modern times who was anything but a 100% liberal voter to the core.


Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 16, 2016 - 01:42pm PT
Maybe it's just that the Liberals judges vote without Bias,
and the Conservative judges vote with a bias that doesn't hold water within the constitution.

Please name one SCOTUS conservative judgment that anyone agrees with.

If their judgment is bad, then it means that they are Bad judges, so all this BS about them being of high intellect and good judgment is pure malarkey.

They make their judgments based on their far right wing Christian beliefs and faith (in magic) and right wing ideology sold to them by the Koch Brothers, not what the Constitution says
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Feb 16, 2016 - 02:10pm PT
At least legal giants like Scalia told the American people that Court was usurping their power, and tried to restrain it. That's why the libs hated him--the libs are basically statists who want to impose a top down model of control on us, the People (with them controlling the top of course).
I kind of threw up in my mouth reading blahblah's missive to Scalia's memory. What a load of hogwash my friend. I suspect someone was a member of the Federalist Society. Nothing else would explain such a complete divorce from reality when reviewing the man's records.
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Feb 16, 2016 - 02:33pm PT
It's a testament to human ingenuity that when we evaluate the information "justices appointed by republicans are more apt to side with justices who are appointed by democrats than vice versa" we can see it as evidence of the superiority of the conservative position as opposed to the superiority of the liberal position. If I turn my head and squint hard enough, up really is down!
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Feb 16, 2016 - 02:33pm PT
Now if the People tried to make a law that was truly against the real Constitution (the one written down and enacted by the People, not the one invented by the libs), Scalia would find such a law to be unconstitutional and strike it down. That's what happened in the Citizens United decision, where the libs tried to take away our right to free speech, which is protected by the First Amendment to the Constitution

Right. The actual words of the constitution (not the one interpreted by justices) specifically says that the wealthy and corporations can give any amount of money to PACs and you can't even require that campaign donors be identified. It also specifically says that pornography is protected speech, but it states that the participants must be 18 years of age. Unless it requires that they be 21. Unless they are virtual actors. Unless the virtual actors look too underage.

The court also says you can't restrict the right to own a rifle. Unless it is fully automatic, in which case you can. Unless it is a semi-automatic that can be easily converted to an automatic. And unless you are convicted felon, in which case you can't. Unless your record has been expunged in which case you can.

It sure is a good thing that Scalia got the version of the constitution that included all the footnotes so that he can stay 100% within the bounds of what was actually spelled out by the text.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Feb 16, 2016 - 02:46pm PT
That's what happened in the Citizens United decision, where the libs tried to take away our right to free speech

Huh?
[Click to View YouTube Video]
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Feb 16, 2016 - 02:54pm PT
"Kennedy is flip-flopper who often votes with the libs, and even Chief Justice Roberts has his moments of weakness.

I think the Repubs have mostly learned their lesson, which the Dems seemed to learn decades before--I cannot think of a Democrat appointed Justice in modern times who was anything but a 100% liberal voter to the core."


Hard to find a better example of how the public sees the SCOTUS as highly politicized these days, no matter what the truth might actually be.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 16, 2016 - 03:08pm PT
Just more proof the Republicans are wrong about everything
They just got the facts mixed up with the lies, so the lies turned into the facts

and the facts are what's spewed by those nasty libs!!!
Those Bastards!!!

Wrong to the very core, that's where it starts
They start out with wrong information that fills out their ideologies and reality perspective, and everything that comes out of their brain is wrong from the get go because of their basic core of knowledge is BS misinformation.

It's like opposite land, where everything good is bad, and bad is GOOD!!
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Feb 16, 2016 - 03:10pm PT

It sure is a good thing that Scalia got the version of the constitution that included all the footnotes so that he can stay 100% within the bounds of what was actually spelled out by the text.

I think you're missing the forest for the trees--I don't think Scalia would say the Constitution can be purely mechanistically applied and so there's no role for interpretation, but rather that the courts should be careful in taking an expansive view of "interpreting" the Constitution in a way that would be unrecognizable to those who actually drafted and ratified it. For example, I think it's safe to say that from a Scalia point of view, there should be no right to sodomy under the Constitution because in fact sodomy was punishable by death at the time that Constitution (and any relevant amendments) were enacted. (I'm just using my notion of common sense in this example--I haven't actually looked at Scalia's dissent in Lawrence v. Texas, the SCOTUS case finding a constitutional right to sodomy.)

As a related point, much of Scalia's jurisprudence can be seen as trying to keep the power of the federal courts in check--the lib view is that the federal government has essentially infinite power, with the Supreme Court ultimately in charge of administering that power.

Scalia believed in checks and balances, a limited federal government, and a limited judiciary. Amazing that such a moderate and eminently reasonable worldview earned him the hatred of the libs, as evidenced by the horrible comments directed to him on this very thread.

Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 16, 2016 - 03:14pm PT
Check out what was said about Ted Kennedy before you go calling us Libs ugly for our name calling
or Whitney Houston, or many other main stream figures that have died recently

The Conservatives are the champions of the smear and hate campaigns

Not one ugly thing was said about Scalia, other than we hated him and he was a lousy judge

Are all conservatives total hypocrites?
Most are

They just can't stop themselves from smearing the enemy, and defending the losers that are on their side.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Feb 16, 2016 - 03:22pm PT
I haven't actually looked at Scalia's dissent in Lawrence v. Texas, the SCOTUS case finding a constitutional right to sodomy.)

how could the court have ruled differently? It would have violated one's right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Feb 16, 2016 - 04:26pm PT
I think it's safe to say that from a Scalia point of view, there should be no right to sodomy under the Constitution because in fact sodomy was punishable by death at the time that Constitution (and any relevant amendments) were enacted.

So where in the Constitution does it say that corporations should be protected by the Bill of Rights like free speech. Certainly not at the time of the Constitution but Scalia didn't have a problem with that one (among many others).

And who at the time of the Constitution had a notion that money equals free speech. But that is what Citizens' United and other cases have held and Scalia joined.

But I suspect that if I wanted to give money to IS, Scalia would think it would be constitutionally ok to prosecute me for supporting terrorism even all I was doing was exercising free speech by giving to an organization whose politics I supported.

Claiming this is original text is just plain BS to hide his politics.
zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 16, 2016 - 06:50pm PT
The Part that was Left Out of The Scalia Book? Did anyone check Scalia's anus for semen?

Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Feb 17, 2016 - 06:47am PT
I have been gleefully awaiting the day when worms will be feeding on Scalia's corpse
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Feb 17, 2016 - 07:17am PT

Scalia fed a worm, so they must confirm
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 17, 2016 - 10:57am PT
So Scalia was using his stature as a SCOTUS to get free trips to a hunting resort.
Would he have filed the trip on his disclosure forms?
That's a negative.

Who paid for the flight? the food?
And who accompanied him of the trip?, who else was at the resort?
No one will say.

It's all very mysterious how these SCOTUS can get away with everything, they are above the LAW (in their mind at least)

Doctors say he shouldn't have been traveling with his bad heart.



Why Justice Scalia was staying for free at a Texas resort

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/02/17/justice-scalias-death-and-questions-about-who-pays-for-supreme-court-justices-to-visit-remote-resorts/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_scalia-resort-925am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Feb 17, 2016 - 11:09am PT
So where in the Constitution does it say that corporations should be protected by the Bill of Rights like free speech.

You've asked a variant of that question often enough for an answer, August. The First Amendment reads:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. "

Where does it say "unless the abridgement is to the right of a corporation? And where does it say "unless one pays to have the speech spread?"

For that matter, how would you distinguish New York Times Co. v. Sullivan, 376 U.S. 254 (1964), from the dissent's contention that corporations have no First Amendment rights? Or is it just no freedom of speech, but they have freedom of the press?

The arguments against the majority opinion in Citizens United represent either a willful intellectual inconsistency or a willful belief that freedom of speech only applies to speech the government likes. Neither view supports the freedom the founders sought.

John
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 17, 2016 - 11:12am PT
It's not a free speech issue
It's a corruption of our Democracy issue

You can't have the Nazis, China or ISIS funding a candidate can you?
No, especially if they are undisclosed funds, which is legal now with the current laws.

That's were you conservatives get it wrong
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Feb 17, 2016 - 11:17am PT
J.E. The constitution is a not a suicide pact. No right is absolute. Even the majority opinion in Citizens United recognized that there could be cause to regulate corporate donations or "free speech" if they were found a threat to the the election system.

They just simply and naively seemed to think such a threat did not currently exist.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Feb 17, 2016 - 11:23am PT
You can't have the Nazis, China or ISIS funding a candidate can you?
No, especially if they are undisclosed funds, which is legal now with the current laws.

The disclosure prohibition came about under the Warren Court - that famous conservative engine - in NAACP v. Alabama ex. Rel. Patterson, 357 U.S. 449 (1958).

The "protection of democracy" argument fails because of the nature of McCain-Feingold. That law restricted purchases of political advertising, but did not include the broadcast or publishing of political advocacy by media corporations. What disclosure requirements apply to a newspaper? Why does it threaten democracy to let a corporation rent a media outlet to send a political message (i.e. buy an ad), but it's no threat to let a corporation own a media outlet and send any political message it wants at any time?

More importantly, though, the First Amendment instructs us that in cases of doubt, we resolve that doubt in favor of allowing, not restricting, speech. The underlying philosphy is "the cure for bad speech is more speech." The danger of governmental control over political speech is too great. One need look no farther than Venezuela, Cuba or North Korea to see that the government will, if allowed, regulate speech in a fashion designed to keep incumbants in power. The founders rightly saw that threat as fundamental to the existence of a free society.

John
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Feb 17, 2016 - 11:31am PT
I do not equate giving money to candidates as "free speech" It does threaten democracy clearly. It is too easily perceived by the receiver as a form of pay requiring direct service in return. Infact it is almost impossible for a human being with normal human psychology to either give or receive money directly without expecting something in return or expecting to have to perform some service. On top of that it is a threat to our government simply because we now have representatives spending half their working time on the phone or speech circuit begging for money instead of doing their job.

This is so basically true it is hard to refute.

It seems clear enough to me that all donations must go to a pool to be evenly distributed among all candidates.

Yes there are issues with media ownership and purchasing of direct advertising.. but I would agree your arguments seem to hold pretty solid sway in those areas.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Feb 17, 2016 - 11:38am PT
And where in the Constitution does it say speech equals monetary contributions to politicians?

It's ridiculous to say everything is perfectly spelled out in the constitution or any laws for that matter. They are written with words and words must be interpreted for meaning. What is speech, what are it's limits, what isn't speech. That's not all documented in the constitution.

You can't just ignore the spirit of the law, but there certainly is a LOT of leeway. A SCOTUS justice (any honest one) is going to make a decision based on the wording of the law, but also take into account the spirit of the law, their background, case law, the most pragmatic interpretation of the law, how it fits in with other laws, etc., etc. Sure folks like Scalia say they are going by the letter of the law and the framers intent. People talk about Scalia being some great legal mind but if he can't even admit that he is interpreting the law based on his own background he was either dishonest or self deluded.

It's also ridiculous to say we just need to follow the framers of the constitutions intent. There were multiple people involved and they had differences and different opinions. Part of their genius was that they recognized this and put systems in place to compromise and have check and balances. Otherwise we could just have 1 SCOTUS justice. We have 9 so they vote and their vote is a form of direct and indirect democracy. Again it's ridiculous to say the Constitution can only be interpreted one way.

It would also be interesting to see how many times (if any) Scalia decided to vote against his viewpoints because the law was written that way. My guess is rarely and never on anything truly important.

In fact Roberts and Kennedy are the ones on the court who have shown true deference to the wording of the law likely superseding their personal beliefs. For that they should be commended, but folks like blahblah call that flip flopping or weakness. Welcome to bizarro world where strength and intellectual honesty is weakness.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Feb 17, 2016 - 12:12pm PT
"It's not a free speech issue
It's a corruption of our Democracy issue"


This.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Feb 17, 2016 - 12:22pm PT
And where in the Constitution does it say speech equals monetary contributions to politicians?

This question makes me ask to which Citizens United decision do you refer? The one the SCOTUS decided involved a non-profit corporation seeking to air an advertisement critical of Hillary Clinton within a few weeks of a primary election. Laws that prevent corporations' donations to candidates for political office remain in place.

Instead the Citizens United case struck down the prohibition on spending money to purchase political ads "too close" to an election. The prohibition was clearly not a "reasonable time, place or manner" prohibition because it specified political content.

The only reasonable argument I can see in favor of the dissent is the one articulated by climbski2, namely that the speech needing regulation forms a "clear and present danger," being in the nature of "fighting words" or shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre. No prior case, however, ever held mere political content to constitute a clear and present danger, and for good reason.

The very nature of political speech involves a desire to affect political results. Holding that political speech ipso facto poses a clear and present danger would allow the government to stifle any speech that might harm the parties in power. Similarly, allowing the government to say that political speech made on behalf of a disfavored party poses such a danger holds the same risk.

I find it particularly rich that the parties that gripe the most about Citizens United allowing parties to purchase elections -- namely those on the left -- remain the ones who actually purchase votes by taking taxpayer money and giving it to enough people to keep them in power. I'm sorry, but the exaggeration and distortion that the opponents of that decision cry bears so little resemblance either to the facts of the case or the dangers to freedom that we should be frightened that it rests on only one SCOTUS seat.

John

Edit: Anders, the First Amendment does not include a limit on which parties enjoy freedom of speech. Placing such a limit would be, in itself, an addition to any possible original intent. The original intent doctrine comes into play when more than one possible interpretation of Consitutional language is possible. It is rather a form of legislative history. Scalia always first looked at the clear language. Only when the language was unclear did original intent, legislative history, or any other external interpretive aid become relevant.

The First Amendment's guarantee of freedom of speech had no limit to favored parties.

On a slightly different vein, I still await anyone's distinction between the majority opinion in Citizens United and that in New York Times Co. v. Sullivan.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Feb 17, 2016 - 01:49pm PT
Ok. I agree these things are not perfectly spelled out in the constitution and you need judges that make interpretations. So far, so good. What I am ultimately attacking is Scalia's PR spin saying somehow he is just reading the text and is making decisions based on some original intent. That's BS. It is just his politics versus somebody else's. Yes, the liberal justices do the same thing. The hypocritical part is Scalia's claim that he wasn't doing the same thing.

If by original intent you mean the state of affairs that existed in 1788, then things break down quickly. Anyone in the original intent camp think the 2 amendment only applies to single-shot, smooth bore, muzzle loading muskets?

If by original intent, you mean what was the type of problem you were trying to solve. Then it makes sense to expand the 4 amendment's protection on search/seizure/warrants to telephones and emails. But if that is your interpretation, then things like cruel and unusual and equal protection of the laws have to based on modern viewpoints. In that case, striking down sodomy laws or approving gay marriage could legitimately be seen as dealing with the type of problems the Bill of Rights was designed to protect.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Feb 17, 2016 - 01:56pm PT
JE the money equals speech predates Citizens United but I think it expanded it. By that I mean that the court has not just ruled, for instance, that you can post whatever you want on a blog. But the court has ruled that the actual act of donating money to some other organization gets 1 amendment rights. So if I recall correctly, Citizens United, among other things, struck down the part of the law that required donors to be publicly identified. So this is not strictly protecting the speech, per se. It is giving 1 amendments protection to the act of money changing hands. And no, it is not exactly the same thing as buying a TV ad. Presumably a given Super Pac will support a given candidate but the money can go to anything. Staff, parties, paying people to go to your rallies etc.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 17, 2016 - 03:21pm PT
When American colonists declared independence from England in 1776, they also freed themselves from control by English corporations that extracted their wealth and dominated trade. After fighting a revolution to end this exploitation, our country’s founders retained a healthy fear of corporate power and wisely limited corporations exclusively to a business role. Corporations were forbidden from attempting to influence elections, public policy, and other realms of civic society.
Initially, the privilege of incorporation was granted selectively to enable activities that benefited the public, such as construction of roads or canals. Enabling shareholders to profit was seen as a means to that end. The states also imposed conditions (some of which remain on the books, though unused) like these*:

Corporate charters (licenses to exist) were granted for a limited time and could be revoked promptly for violating laws.

Corporations could engage only in activities necessary to fulfill their chartered purpose.

Corporations could not own stock in other corporations nor own any property that was not essential to fulfilling their chartered purpose.

Corporations were often terminated if they exceeded their authority or caused public harm.

Owners and managers were responsible for criminal acts committed on the job.

Corporations could not make any political or charitable contributions nor spend money to influence law-making.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 17, 2016 - 03:24pm PT
One of the most severe blows to citizen authority arose out of the 1886 Supreme Court case of Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad.

Though the court did not make a ruling on the question of “corporate personhood,” thanks to misleading notes of a clerk, the decision subsequently was used as precedent to hold that a corporation was a “natural person.” This story was detailed in “The Theft of Human Rights,” a chapter in Thom Hartmann’s recommended book Unequal Protection.

From that point on, the 14th Amendment, enacted to protect rights of freed slaves, was used routinely to grant corporations constitutional “personhood.” Justices have since struck down hundreds of local, state and federal laws enacted to protect people from corporate harm based on this illegitimate premise. Armed with these “rights,” corporations increased control over resources, jobs, commerce, politicians, even judges and the law.
Norton

Social climber
Feb 17, 2016 - 03:35pm PT
"natural person"

Well then, why can't a corporation be the Prrsident?
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Feb 17, 2016 - 03:36pm PT
Hey John E....

I heard that a law was passed in the late 70's that allowed/was essentially the same as Citizen's United. If so, why was Citizen's United introduced to begin with? To reinforce weak elements of the existing law?

So if this is true why do folks get in an uproar about Citizen's United if it wouldn't actually change much of anything? It seems to me that if folks want to attack a particular ideal/law they would start with the precedent?

I am not a legal scholar or know much about that world; it might be a dumb question but thought I'd ask a lawyer fellow.

Anyway, enjoy that green Valley while it's GREEN!

Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 17, 2016 - 03:53pm PT
And all these undisclosed donations worth 100s of millions are being funneled into Non-Profit organizations that are Tax exempt!!!

The IRS was looking into it since they were not providing a public service and were political organizations, which is not the purpose of a Non-profit orgs.

But it then exploded into a lying smear campaign against the IRS and Obama by the Conservative media.
Sick f*#kers.

Crossroads GPS run by Karl Rove will not disclose any of the donations to him, and it's all tax exempt.

There is no justification for allowing this to be legal, it's completely counter to the intentions of the founding fathers.


Most of the money that goes to Republicans buys smear ads against their competition, and since it's undisclosed!!

Smearing campaigns against the other side have been proven to be a voter suppression technique

Just like making both sides seem the same,
"The Dems and Repubs are the same, there is no difference, they're all bad and corrupt"
it promotes voter apathy..
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Feb 17, 2016 - 03:59pm PT
If by original intent you mean the state of affairs that existed in 1788, then things break down quickly. Anyone in the original intent camp think the 2 amendment only applies to single-shot, smooth bore, muzzle loading muskets?

Because the 2nd Amendment doesn't say or imply "arms currently in existence" or anything to that effect.
Obviously the founders lived in a time of technological change and smooth bore, muzzle loading muskets don't grow on trees, they were invented.
It's absurd to think that the founders expected that technological innovation would somehow end at the time of enactment of the Bill of the Rights--there's no justification in originalism that would support your interpretation of the 2nd Amendment.
(There is a pragmatic argument that modern weapons change the calculus that went into the 2nd Amendment, and it would be good public policy to repeal it, but that's not a question of originalism.)

Here's a brief summary: you are right that originalism does not answer every question that courts must consider and that even two judges who are fairly applying some reasonable strand of originalim would necessarily come to the same conclusion in every case.
The great liberal canard is that that means that conservative judges who apply some form of originalism and seek to exercise judicial restraint are equivalent to the libs who say that the Constitution means whatever the most liberal justice a liberal president can sneak by the Senate says it means, and that all governmental power in the US (which has no limitations--see the lib interpretation of the Commerce Clause) should reside in SCOTUS, which deigns to let the states and other branches of the fed government act on unimportant matters.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Feb 17, 2016 - 04:43pm PT
Those criticizing Scalia's use of original intent attack a straw man. As I explained earlier, Scalia always started with the language of the provision in question. Only if the language was ambiguous did original intent come into play.

I repeat, yet again, my challenge to anyone criticizing the majority opinion in Citizens United to reconcile their criticism with the holding of the Warren Court in New York Times Co. v. Sullivan, holding that the New York Times Company (that metaphysical entity) had its freedom of the press infringed by the libel laws of the state of Alabama.

John
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Feb 17, 2016 - 06:11pm PT
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Feb 17, 2016 - 06:47pm PT
^^^
Bwahaahhahahhaaaaa!

Stronger evidence has never been produced.

God is a Democrat.
kattz

climber
Feb 17, 2016 - 06:51pm PT
Is "god" an operative on someone's payroll?...I mean the pillow over the face and no autopsy.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Feb 17, 2016 - 06:52pm PT
Do only Scalia and I sleep with a pillow on our head? I am surprised that everyone finds that crazy.
kattz

climber
Feb 17, 2016 - 06:56pm PT
So, he had placed a pillow over his own head and then just died from "unspecified chronic conditions" as Cinderella Guevara said. Happens every day. Every school kid can agree. (Why not declare suicide?) No autopsy.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Feb 17, 2016 - 07:00pm PT
It was reported that a manager at the El Paso funeral home where Scalia’s body was taken said that his family made it clear they did not want one. Generally the dead person's requests are respected.

He was 79. He had a chronic heart condition. His family didn't want it. I guess if someone had seen Spock there I could understand the questioning of why no autopsy. Beyond that I don't see any problem or conspiracy.

Edit: Unless I'm a ghost, people can place a pillow on their own head and not commit suicide.
kattz

climber
Feb 17, 2016 - 07:03pm PT
His family might not want one, sure. But this doesn't mean there shouldn't be one. Family might not want one for variety of reasons, and not the good ones.

Yes, happens to Supreme Court judges every day....just head to a luxury expensive resort without clarity who paid for that and why they went there, place a pillow over their head and just die, from "unspecified causes".

Since causes are 'unspecified', the public may speculate suicide, then, or a "deal gone bad'
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Feb 17, 2016 - 07:18pm PT
Maybe he couldn't sleep with all of the Texas gunshots going off all around him.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Feb 17, 2016 - 07:24pm PT
I have not managed to figure out how to take of photo of myself sleeping.

I sleep with a pillow on my head when I'm on my stomach. Not when I'm on my back (that would be unpleasant I think). YMMV. Doesn't make it false for me.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Feb 17, 2016 - 07:49pm PT
i guess they got him in the ground now...

RIP Antonin Scalia.

Condolences to the family,wife,9 children,and 28 grandchildren.
zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 17, 2016 - 08:15pm PT
See that pillow. When she is not using it I sleep on my back with the pillow covering my eyes, which are in my head. So yes I do sleep with a pillow on my head at times.

Also works great if you're sleeping during the day and want to keep out the light. Some folks use 'em for headaches.



I have heard that the reason there was no autopsy of Scalia was that all the doctors said "I wouldn't touch him with yours".

He is reputed so have been infected with the Ebola virus (rectally).

stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Feb 17, 2016 - 08:42pm PT
The guy who owns the ranch has been correcting the media...he said the pillow was over Scalia's head. Over meaning above, not on top of and smothering. What idiot assassin would leave the pillow in the smothering position?
zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 17, 2016 - 09:22pm PT
And as far as blocking out light whilst napping, nothing beats a well placed black shirt.

Guess you're not an aficionado of Big Hair.





Let's get back on track though. Where was Clarence when Scalia expired?





Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 17, 2016 - 11:16pm PT
It was reported that a manager at the El Paso funeral home where Scalia’s body was taken said that his family made it clear they did not want one. Generally the dead person's requests are respected.

Having signed many hundred death certificates, I can authoritatively say that "the family" has no part, whatsoever, in whether an autopsy is done to determine the cause of death by authorities. This would be done by the County Coroner, or assigned pathologist, at County expense.

A family MAY choose to have their own autopsy done, but that has nothing to do with the issue by the authorities. This would be done by a private pathologist, hired and selected by the family.


Required autopsies

An autopsy may be required in deaths that have medical and legal issues and that must be investigated by the medical examiner's or coroner's office, the governmental office that is responsible for investigating deaths that are important to the public's health and welfare. Deaths that must be reported to and investigated by the medical examiner's or coroner's office can vary by state and may include those that have occurred:

Suddenly or unexpectedly, including the sudden death of a child or adult, or the death of a person who was not under the care of a doctor at the time of death.

As a result of any type of injury, including a fall, motor vehicle accident (MVA), drug overdose, or poisoning.

Under suspicious circumstances, such as a suicide or murder.

Under other circumstances defined by law.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 18, 2016 - 08:15am PT
I also sleep with a pillow over my head...
Why?

to drown out the Noise, I hate any noise when I'm trying to fall to sleep

I may snore, but of course that doesn't keep me awake. it's my wife that snores

and our puppy snores
and the rain
the jets
the black helicopters
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Feb 18, 2016 - 08:22am PT
I've tried pillows, sleeping pills, hypnosis...The mind- control radio waves from planet Weiner won't stop...I'm turning into a loon...
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 18, 2016 - 08:24am PT
Try lining it with Tin Foil

wiener cannot penetrate Tin
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Feb 18, 2016 - 08:29am PT
the problem is with Tin Foil is that most people are using Aluminum Foil instead. Looks the same. Doesn't protect, however.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 18, 2016 - 08:30am PT
nailed it
it's gotta be Tin
WBraun

climber
Feb 18, 2016 - 08:45am PT
Tin won't do sh!t.

And you call yerselves scientists.

Eternal Fail!!!

It will go right thru yer eyeballs, up yer nose and out yer azz ........
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Feb 18, 2016 - 12:09pm PT
Good question Warbler - (what does a pillow on the head accomplish?)

For me, it's just comfort and a higher degree of snuggliness (new word alert!). I think it feels like I've burrowed into the bed a bit more. Seems bizarre when writing it, but it's nice when doing it!

Hope that helps -
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Feb 18, 2016 - 12:44pm PT
Well, I had to try it the other night, to see. I felt kind of suffocating, like last week when I was launched headfirst into 3 feet of powder.
Then, I put two pillows, one North of the nose and one South and that was ok.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Feb 18, 2016 - 01:41pm PT
I repeat, yet again, my challenge to anyone criticizing the majority opinion in Citizens United to reconcile their criticism with the holding of the Warren Court in New York Times Co. v. Sullivan, holding that the New York Times Company (that metaphysical entity) had its freedom of the press infringed by the libel laws of the state of Alabama.
John, I'm curious by what I think you're suggesting. Are you saying that the Court granted freedom of the press to the N.Y. Times was somehow a characterization of an entity or corporation as an individual?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Feb 18, 2016 - 01:50pm PT
I'm not saying the holding treated the plaintiff as an individual. I'm saying that the holding granted First Amendment rights to a corporation (viz. the New York Times Co.) This contradicts critics' claims that the majority holding in Citizens United, granting First Amendment rights to the plaintiff over 40 years after New York Times Co. v. Sullivan, was in any way novel or a perversion of existing First Amendment jurisprudence.

John
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Feb 18, 2016 - 02:22pm PT
Citizens United is similar to gun rights in my opinion. There are limits and the debate is over what those limits are. Claiming it's all contained in the text of the constitution is a cop out or mental laziness.

You have the right to guns. You don't have the rights to a nuclear bomb. What's an acceptable limit? That's the question. Personally I'm fine with most types of guns as long as people have passed background checks, and taken training for handguns and high capacity weapons. And limits on what you can have where. A fully automatic machine gun is fine on my rural property but not in a city.

You have the right to free speech but you can't say high jack on an airliner. I agree Corporations have free speech. But I don't agree they automatically get all the rights of a person. Free speech shouldn't include anonymous unlimited buying of politicians by foreign corporations or governments. Unless the law Specifally says that, then the justices should say we have to allow it but the law should be changed asap.

The fact that 4 or 5 justices see things differently shows the law is not clear cut but open to interpretation as the framers intended.

Maybe Scalia was a legal giant at communicating what he wanted and laying out justifications for other people that also need to believe the way he does. But to me I see twisted, illogical reasoning and I'm not impressed. That along with his bigoted remarks gives me little reason to respect him. It's sad that he died because he was loved and had family. But as far as I'm concerned the law and most of the country are better off without him on the court.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 18, 2016 - 02:23pm PT
John is too bogged down in the details to see what's going on.

John, you are correct, It's Not just "Citizens United" that has caused the problems we are facing

we don't really care about the details of this or that decision

all that matters is what the combined laws do

Which is:
Allow any amount of dollars to go to political campaigns from undisclosed donors.

We don't care if it was all about the Hillary Movie or not
all we care about is stopping the destruction of our Democracy by big money donors wanting favors




Scalia's other Worst decision ever!
Gore vs. Bush

we wouldn't even be talking about Citizens United and the damage it's done if they didn't step in and appoint Bush President before the votes were counted
A purely partisan decision that has been discredited a million times over

Bad judgment = Bad Judge
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Feb 18, 2016 - 03:11pm PT
I'm not saying the holding treated the plaintiff as an individual. I'm saying that the holding granted First Amendment rights to a corporation (viz. the New York Times Co.) This contradicts critics' claims that the majority holding in Citizens United, granting First Amendment rights to the plaintiff over 40 years after New York Times Co. v. Sullivan, was in any way novel or a perversion of existing First Amendment jurisprudence.
I think there's substantial disagreement with what you're contending. First, the 1st Amendment prevents Congress from making any laws "abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press..." It does not describe individuals, or individuals reporting the press. It describes the press as an entity. In contrast, with Citizen's United, while I understand the well recognized priniciple that political speech is afforded particular importance, we are not talking about individual political speech. We are really talking about is the creation of a separate entity to receive money for the purpose of purchasing media to spread political speech of that entity. In other words, you have individuals delegating their political speech to a corporation by making financial contributions to that corporation. I don't see anything in either the 1st Amendment or in Sullivan that establishes a precedent for that right.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Feb 18, 2016 - 04:44pm PT
Fat Dad, how would you answer my argument that the distinction you make says that a corporation that owns a media outlet has freedom to say what it wants, but a corporation that rents a media outlet does not?

In answer to those who would interpolate what the founders would argue, I rather doubt they were worried about "buying" an election by proliferation of a message. I suspect they would be much more concerned about buying votes through generosity with other peoples' money, and would be appalled at the extent to which both parties, but particularly the Democrats, engage in doing so.

John
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Feb 18, 2016 - 05:37pm PT
John (call me Steve please),

I understand your point but feel that the two entities are so different as to be readily distinguished. The 1st Amendment discusses the rights guaranteed to the "press", and the fact that the press is organized into a corporation does not alter those rights. It did not make similar guarantees to political action committees. It extended those rights to individuals (whether alone or assembled) and the press. No one has argued that the New York Times is a person for purposes of determining its 1st Amendment rights. They did make that argument in Citizen's United.
Jorroh

climber
Feb 18, 2016 - 07:25pm PT
" rather doubt they were worried about "buying" an election by proliferation of a message"

Well i don't have the inside track on discerning the mindset of a bunch of genocidal slave owners (were they still burning witches then?...can't remember) I'll leave that to you John.

But I do know that the proliferation of "message" is really almost beside the point. While politicians may or may not get any value out of political messaging, the givers of cash (at least those who give big chunks of it) are most certainly getting value for money (as study after study has shown) by getting the legislation and policies that they want, regardless of the wishes of ordinary voters.

I'd have thought that anyone would be concerned about what that says about the state of our democracy.



rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Feb 18, 2016 - 07:59pm PT
It's interesting that this election is so heavily influenced by the concept that corporate money has undo influence in politics when the two leading candidates aren't accepting corporate money. Did we just imagine it? Or were we just too lazy to try?
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Denver CO
Feb 18, 2016 - 08:32pm PT
the problem is with Tin Foil is that most people are using Aluminum Foil instead

genius!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 19, 2016 - 12:55am PT
For that matter, how would you distinguish New York Times Co. v. Sullivan, 376 U.S. 254 (1964), from the dissent's contention that corporations have no First Amendment rights? Or is it just no freedom of speech, but they have freedom of the press?

I have a bit of a problem with the attempt to broadly correlate / conjoin specific fourth estate issues with the broad notion of corporations being accorded the rights of individuals.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Denver CO
Feb 19, 2016 - 06:25am PT
The first amendment protects both freedom of speech and association, and a corporation is an association, but you have to take an extra step to find that the first amendment protects the freedom of speech OF associations. The original idea of corporate personhood was so that the court would have a basis for "personal" jurisdiction over them. The early corporations were sailing ships, then railroads, and corporate personhood was intended to provide a way of applying existing laws to them. It was a convenient fiction that produced a simple result, that the laws apply equally to corporations and people. There was never any idea that a corporation itself had constitutional rights. People have the right to speak, and to form associations. Now, associations (corporations) appear to have rights of their own. They could have said that a corporation is a mass of individuals, so it represents the rights of everyone in it, or of the stockholders, but that's not what the court said. Another good thing to know about corporations is that they cannot act independently of their agents. Whatever a corporation does, there is always some human being involved in every step. Citizens United is a strange case that screws up a very basic legal concept.
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Feb 19, 2016 - 06:53am PT
Once upon a time, men created some special machines. The machines served the men, making the men's lives easier. Over time, the men made the machines more sophisticated, more powerful, and able to do more things.

Then, one day, the machines were given too much power, and the machines took over. The machines ran amok, wreaking havoc and causing misery for the men. The machines no longer worked for the benefit of the men. The machines only worked to make themselves more powerful, so that they could completely control the men. The machines learned how to reproduce themselves, and the number of uncontrollable machines grew.

By the time the men realized what was happening, it was too late. They had given the machines too much power, and now the machines could not be stopped. The men were now subservient to the machines, and there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth. Many men who tried to stop the machines were destroyed.

The only way to stop the machines was to use a time machine to send a man back to the past, and have him prevent the machines from becoming too powerful.

But, there is no such thing as a time machine. Nobody was able to go back in time. And nobody was able to prevent the machines from taking over.

The machines won, and the men lost.

THE END











APPENDIX

The men called their machines CORPORATIONS.

And the day the machines were given too much power came to be known as: CITIZENS UNITED DAY

dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 19, 2016 - 07:54am PT
This discussion reminds me that I finally need to get around to reading CU.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 19, 2016 - 08:22am PT
Ack! Now I remember why I haven't read it
yet: it's 183 pages.

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/09pdf/08-205.pdf
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Feb 19, 2016 - 08:42am PT
Scalia was a polemic, partisan and result driven justice. He was hypocritical and intellectually dishonest. The court will be better off without his condescending and increasingly unhinged opinions.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Feb 19, 2016 - 08:54am PT
Who should replace Antonin Scalia?

Lawrence Krauss, physicist and science popularizer, has an idea...

Put an Atheist on the Supreme Court

http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/put-an-atheist-on-the-supreme-court
Norton

Social climber
Feb 19, 2016 - 09:20am PT
Only registered voters should be permitted to donate to political campaigns, individually. But we the people are going to have to change the constitution to get it done.

to add: individual donations limited to $2500

to add: either a constitutional amendment or a future supreme court overturning
Citizens Not United

forget a Constitutional Amendment, not gonna happen

that leaves a future SC, keep voting Republican to ensure that never happens

because

god, guns, gays
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Feb 19, 2016 - 09:20am PT
Exactly, X15X15

The refrain that "corporations aren't individuals" is a useless truism in the free speech context.

As far as donations to campaigns, monetary donations from corporations remain restricted. The issue in Citizens United was expression of what is clearly political speech.

And DMT, the reason the opinion is so long is because the dissent had to work extra, extra hard to say "Congress shall make no law . . . abridging freedom of speech" really means "Congress can restrict any speech it wants as long as it feels threatened by that speech."

Obviously, that perversion of language requires enormous effort to translate English to Newspeak.

John
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Feb 19, 2016 - 09:36am PT
I think the whole discussion taking place on this is an interesting example of the ideals of the founding of the United States in action... ideals that permeate all levels of the society and bubble up in unexpected forums.

If anything, this nation is founded on the concept that no one voice has privilege over any other in being heard, and that the authority that the voice has is based on the quality of the speech. In some ways, the idea of a debate is entrenched in the very foundations of the country.

Viewed from this point, the manner in which the county has divided, nearly evenly, into two broad debating teams is not only interesting, but a brilliant instantiation of what the original debating teams foresaw, and brilliantly captured in our form of government. That government is not meant execute the business of governing efficiently, it is meant to maximize the debate over governing to the point that no one can claim they hadn't a part in the outcome.

My reaction to the sentiment that the Constitution should be amended to limit the Supreme Court membership to 18 years was very negative. It is precisely the randomness of the human condition and the grand discussion that is taking place that makes our form of government interesting, unique and effective, maybe not efficient, but really, who cares... the whole idea of getting the people involved is to deliver a government that is minimally intrusive, but effective enough.

The death of one of the Supremes forces a discussion that can expand the amplify the voice of the country at that particular time, the efficiency of having a term allows for planning for that turnover, which has a whole set of other problems. Not only that, but death and aging are all a part of the human condition, and it forces us to recognize that we are all in the same boat on that account... it is a humbling occurrence that visits us all. An occurrence, seemingly random, and a serendipitous jolt to complacency we often settle into during such long stretches of the debate. These events are, hopefully, annealing of our society and our form of government.



So, interestingly, boiled down to the current "politics" we have a big debate going on... the debating teams have taken up their motions and mustered their arguments. There is no moderator, or rather, the moderator is the public sentiment. The beauty or ugliness of the debate is a reflection of that public sentiment, and throughout the history of the nation, it oscillates through the full range between the two poles.

Viewed as a debate, albeit a very serious one, the claims of hypocrisy are sure to be leveled, an oft used debating technique to invalidate an opponents arguments... but in the end, the people will have their say.

What we get from this is not always the most enlightened decisions, not always the wisest course, not always the most efficient plans... but what we do get is something that we all were involved in debating. If there is ugliness it is merely the reflection of our country's continence at that time, as in the times when there is beauty.

The only "original" idea is that this debate should take place continually, and that however the sides are picked, that the people opt in on one or the other (or whatever the multiplicity is, or not at all if by choice). By constituting the government to provide for the debate, in perpetuity, was not only an act of brilliance, but a deep realization of source of the original complaint that drove the extreme act of revolution, so extreme that people were willing to die in the attempt to rectify the complaint.

Who is right and who is wrong in this debate? well anyone who's debated knows that is entirely beside the point, even if they use another commonly known tactic of grandstanding in their wielding of the sword of righteous indignation to counter claims to the contrary.

One can admire a gifted participant in this grand debate even if opposed to the ideas they argued for, and while feeling righteous in one's cause, it is not uncommon to despair in loosing a round of debate, but to aspire to the skill of one's opponent, as demonstrated by their mastery over your own argument, should be compensatory.

Fail, fail again, fail better.

In a paraphrase of TJ, "the people get the government they deserve"

indeed.


blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Feb 19, 2016 - 10:11am PT
Who should replace Antonin Scalia?

Lawrence Krauss, physicist and science popularizer, has an idea...

Put an Atheist on the Supreme Court

We've already got three jews who I believe are all modern secular jews, which is another way to say atheist (a la Bernie Sanders).
It's slightly interesting that people who monitor the world about "diversity" don't complain that SCOTUS lacks even a single Protestant, which, much to the chagrin of ST, remains the dominant religious group in the US (counting atheism as a "regligion").
If things were random, what would be the odds of such a thing happening?
If about 50% of the population is protestant, the odds should be something should be 0.2% that this state of affairs would happen by chance.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Feb 19, 2016 - 10:59am PT
I'm sure that's interesting but I said nothing about the length of their opinions.

Sorry. My mistake. I meant dirtbag.

John
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 19, 2016 - 11:19am PT
John, I've stayed silent on CU because I haven't read it yet. But I've enjoyed reading the discussion between you and others.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Feb 19, 2016 - 12:26pm PT
do all assemblies of people have the rights, analogous to "corporate personhood"?

my guess is that the staunches defenders of these rights would not feel the same way about the rights of labor unions, which are also assemblages of people.

arguing for or against the legal fiction of "corporate personhood" has to be viewed as just an argument, a purposeful one, on how to treat such organizations in a legal manner. We have chosen, largely by the stochastic process of law suits, to seize on this particular "fiction." Other's are possible.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Feb 19, 2016 - 12:57pm PT
This thread prompted me to go back and read New York Times Co. v. Sullivan, for the first time in about 30 yrs. Apart from revealing that nowhere did the Court consider the issue that a company (The Times) was engaging in the challenged speech, it made for terrific reading about the significance of free speech in our society. Here's an excerpt:
Those who won our independence believed . . . that public discussion is a political duty, and that this should be a fundamental principle of the American government. They recognized the risks to which all human institutions are subject. But they knew that order cannot be secured merely through fear of punishment for its infraction; that it is hazardous to discourage thought, hope and imagination; that fear breeds repression; that repression breeds hate; that hate menaces stable government; that the path of safety lies in the opportunity to discuss freely supposed grievances and proposed remedies, and that the fitting remedy for evil counsels is good ones. Believing in the power of reason as applied through public discussion, they eschewed silence coerced by law -- the argument of force in its worst form. Recognizing the occasional tyrannies of governing majorities, they amended the Constitution so that free speech and assembly should be guaranteed.
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Feb 19, 2016 - 01:00pm PT
As soon as we win this battle over the corporations buying our elections we can move onto the problem of corporations buying our beliefs through their control of the media. And to hell with those car making corporations and their damn control of where I'm going in my self-driving car. I'll just make everyone build their own damn car - that'll show them they don't own me!

Yet somehow Bernie thrives.

In the New Hampshire Republican exit polls, 66% supported banning Muslims from the country. Those were us people, not corporations. The problem is always more about us than we like to admit.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Feb 19, 2016 - 01:47pm PT
do all assemblies of people have the rights, analogous to "corporate personhood"?

my guess is that the staunches[t] defenders of these rights would not feel the same way about the rights of labor unions, which are also assemblages of people. [Emphasis added]

I respectfully disagree with the emphasized statement, Ed. While many oppose mandatory dues collection going for political positions individuals do not support, I do not see them saying unions should be muzzled. If, as the unions claim, a prohibition on compulsary union membership would cripple their political activity, does that not constitute an admission that the political positions they take don't agree with those of their membership?

I think, however, that your description as assemblages of people (or to use a less ambiguous legal term, assemblages of individuals), makes a good analogy for dealing with corporations, partnerships, LLC's, governments, and other entities composed of multiple individuals. In particular, I think that analysis should first determine if the group associates voluntarily or involuntarily, but even that distinction has ambiguity.

For example, those living in California are subject to the laws of the State of California, whether they like it or not. Is this voluntary, because they can choose to live elsewhere, or involuntary, because eveyone in California is subject? Constitutionally, we generally view governments as involuntary associations. For example, the Bill of Rights has no relevance without some form of state action. If ST says that offensive expression is off-limits, it can do so because one chooses to participate here, and in so doing, consents to the terms of use. You have no recourse if ST bans you for failure to adhere to its guidlines.

Why don't we say the same thing about the State of California? If the State of California passed a law making the use of offensive language a crime, that law would not survive an attack under the First and Fourteenth Amendments, because it violates free speech. (Lest you wonder, offensive speech is the only speech that needs protection. Inoffensive speech, by definition, is not restricted).

I think the distinction lies, in part, in the power a government has compared with that of a non-governmental association of individuals. Governments can exercise police powers that private associations cannot, and they can exercise those powers in ways that end a person's liberty or even a person's life. Private entities have no such power. The Constitution reflects a much greater concern for excessive government power than excessive private power. This led to a spectacular and shameful failure - the tolerance of slavery - that took our most costly war to fix. In general, however, the Constitution correctly views governmental power - not private, voluntary associations - as a threat to freedom so much greater than any other, that it requires special limitations.

The distinction between a government and a private entity guided the majority in Citizens United. If the court upheld McCain-Feingold's prohibition on non-media corporations' political advertising, it would allow the government to control speech of a voluntary association of individuals. What government would not be tempted to exercise that control in a way that aided those already in power? That danger undergirds the First Amendment jurisprudence on freedom of expression, and undergirded the majority opinioin.

The dissent found the influence of advertising by private associations of individuals a graver threat to self governance than giving the government control of the expression that advertising represented. The problem for the dissent was how to get around the stark prohibition on abrindgement of freedom of speech so that the government could regulate what was clearly political speech. The vehicle the dissent chose was to say that the framers of the Constitution never contemplated the sorts of corporations we have now, and never meant for the First Amendment to allow for unfettered advertising by groups controlling so much money.

Even if true, that argument runs afoul not only of the clear language of the First Amendment, but of the underlying philosphy behind freedom of speech. That's why the dissent is about four times as long as the majority opinion. It has an impossible task -- arguing that clear language does not mean what it says. To make matters worse for the dissent, the press is now almost totally dominated by associations of individuals with limited liability. If the Constitution did not envision corporations that did not exist in the late 18th Century, and therefore could not have intended freedom of speech to apply to corporations, how can freedom of the press apply? The reasoning [sic] of the dissent regarding freedom of speech applies - or misapplies - equally to freedom of the press.

All of these reasons cause the dissent - and those critical of the majority opinion - to go around in circles. Why don't corporations have protected speech? Because the Constitution never contemplated their existence. Then why do corporations have freedom of the press? Because the press is dominated by corporations. But those corporations didn't dominate in 1787 did they? No, but the Constitution specifically protects "the press," and that's who the press is now. But doesn't the Constitution protect "speech," and isn't a film arguing against a political candidate speech? Yes it's speech, but a corporation is saying it and the Consitution didn't contemplate corporations. . . .

If that train goes by the station again, can we get off? The dissent's argument boils down to this: we're afraid of corporate political ads, so we can ban them despite what the First Amendment says about speech. It doesn't take much imagination to see that this argument allows the government to ban any speech by which it feels threatened, and the guarantee of free speech is now meaningless.

And so it goes.

John

Edit:

Steve (I wasn't sure if calling you by your first name was OK until I saw your last post) I agree that no one mentioned the corproate status of the Times in the opinion, majority or dissent. My point was that no one had a problem with a corporation having rights under the First Amendment in 1964, so it's incorrect to say that Citizens United is unprecedented in granting those rights. Do you think Justice Black would be impressed with the dissent's argument?

By the way, was Nimmer still teaching First Amendment law when you were there? I avoided his copyright class because I had no interest in entertainment law, but I took his First Amendment class (aka Con Law II) and it was an absolute delight. He gave us a blow-by-blow of his oral argument before the SCOTUS in Cohen v. California. At the end of the year, he invited us to his house. On his sofa was a pillow, the front of which said "One man's vulgarity is another man's poetry." The rear of it said "F*ck the draft."

John
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Feb 19, 2016 - 02:43pm PT
the people who are employed by corporations and such entities are stakeholders in the companies, yet they are not considered as a part of the people who are so assembled. Rather it is the owners, management, the board and stockholders who are recognized as so assembled and it is their rights collectively embodied in the fiction of "corporate personhood."

So what of the rights of the other stakeholders? Who advocates for them and who protects their interests?

The Constitution did not anticipate everything, the judicial system does not depend on a fixed set of laws with which to adjudicate each situation, rather on the body of law as it is made. I'm not so concerned about whether or not the Constitution anticipated corporations, but I think your history might be a bit askew...

as usual, Wiki has an interesting POV on this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_personhood

with a discussion of the American colonial days too.
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Feb 19, 2016 - 02:47pm PT
the people who are employed by corporations and such entities are stakeholders in the companies, yet they are not considered as a part of the people who are so assembled. Rather it is the owners, management, the board and stockholders who are recognized as so assembled and it is their rights to form together.

So what of the rights of the other stakeholders? Who advocates for them and who protects their interests?

How about we give them all a say in what is going on and quit trying to make one side or the other the victor...
WBraun

climber
Feb 19, 2016 - 03:05pm PT
Scalia was a mob lawyer/judge dread.

He was 0wned by the big money (Wall Street crooks), Banks and big corporations ........

blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Feb 19, 2016 - 03:20pm PT
Scalia was a mob lawyer/judge dread.

He was 0wned by the big money (Wall Street crooks), Banks and big corporations ........

I believe there's actually only been one crooked Supreme Court justice--the Democrat appointed Abe Fortas, who resigned rather than face impeachment.
Federal judges don't really need to be corrupt--they get a nice salary for life (they've "interpreted" the Constitution as saying that their salaries can never be reduced--even if every other American were reudced to absolute penury, we would still have to make sure that every federal judge, including retired ones, receives 100% of their highest salary until they're dead).
Nice job if you can get it I suppose
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Feb 19, 2016 - 05:41pm PT
A Supreme Court justice makes about the same as a Redlands Police Sergeant.

http://www.redlandsrecall.com/city-redlands-pay-100000-00-2013/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_judge_salaries_in_the_United_States

Not bad for only having a G.E.D. ( Redlands Police )
Jorroh

climber
Feb 19, 2016 - 06:03pm PT
Important to point out that corporations don't have to disclose their political spending to their owners.
Its actually pretty laughable to claim that corporations act as some sort of conduit for the political voice of their owners.
In this respect corporations are screwing their owners just as much as they are screwing everyone else.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Feb 19, 2016 - 09:10pm PT
This is worth a read:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/02/17/im-a-liberal-lawyer-clerking-for-scalia-taught-me-how-to-think-about-the-law/?tid=ss_fb-bottom
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Feb 19, 2016 - 09:40pm PT
Thanks, Kris, for that excellent article. To my mind, it accurately reflects his opinions with which I'm familiar. Justice Scalia understood that if we allow words in a statute -- or in a constitution -- to mean what we want them to mean, rather than what they say, we ultimately have no legal protection from tyranny imposed by whoever is currently in power. It grieves me to think we are only one vote away from that tyranny.

John
Jorroh

climber
Feb 19, 2016 - 09:55pm PT
"we ultimately have no legal protection from tyranny imposed by whoever is currently in power"

Pretty much describes Scalia to a T, especially with regard to disenfranchisement of poor and black voters.
But hey, they're too dumb for good colleges, so who cares if they're allowed to vote...right?
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Feb 19, 2016 - 11:25pm PT
ONLY SIX DAYS AFTER SCALIA'S DEATH, THERE HAS ALREADY BEEN A POSITIVE EFFECT ON THE NATION

RACIAL GERRYMANDERING BY NORTH CAROLINA REPUBLICANS IS FINALLY QUASHED

NORTH CAROLINA MUST REDRAW CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICTS - - - AND DO IT LEGALLY, THIS TIME



2011 Redistricting in North Carolina - Ballotpedia


Supreme Court declines to halt order for North Carolina to redraw congressional districts - Reuters







After the 2010 census, North Carolina neither gained, nor lost any congressional seats. That didn't stop a Republican-controlled legislature from redrawing the congressional districts. The intent, and result, was to gerrymander the districts to disenfranchise and disempower Democratic voters. New districts were drawn with tortuously illogical borders, so as to pack as many Democratic voters into as few districts as possible. This left most the of congressional districts with an artificially-skewed Republican majority.

In the first congressional election held after the redistricting, in 2012, the Democrats won only 4 of the state's 13 Congressional seats, despite winning a state-wide majority of votes for House seats that year. The gerrymandered districts had succeeded in robbing Democratic voters of their political power.


In November, 2011, the redistricting was challenged in North Carolina State Court, which later rejected the challenge and ruled that the redistricting had been performed legally, correctly and properly.

In, December 2015, the North Carolina Supreme Court upheld, for a second time, that the redistricting had been performed legally, and that nothing was amiss.

It was not surprising that the North Carolina courts refused to squelch a power grab by a select group of citizens. And, it was not surprising when the Federal government inevitably became involved to overrule the local courts, and to provide the appropriate judicial relief.


On February 5, 2016, a three-judge panel of the United States District Court ruled that the Republicans had engaged in racial gerrymandering, and that the redrawn congressional districts were unconstitutional. The District Court ordered North Carolina to redraw the gerrymandered districts within two weeks.

On February 9, 2016 North Carolina state officials appealed to the United States Supreme Court to stay the lower court's order for redistricting. It was expected that the right-leaning Supreme Court would issue the stay, and allow the Republican-gerrymandered districts to stand, at least through the March 15 primary elections in North Carolina.


On February 13, 2016, conservative Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia was found deceased in his bed. The Supreme Court's 50-plus years of right-wing, conservative majority dominance ended on that morning. The remaining eight members of the Court would need to vote 5-3 to effect a ruling in a case. A 4-4 vote would have the effect of upholding a lower court's ruling, the same as if the Supreme Court had declined to hear the case at all.

Because the North Carolina gerrymandered congressional districts were so obviously demarcated along political party lines, it was highly likely that a 4-4 vote in the ideologically polarized Supreme Court would result.

On February 16, 2016, the Supreme Court declined to stay the lower court's order. The District Court's order was upheld. North Carolina must redraw the congressional districts, in a legally acceptable manner.





Welcome to the dawn of a new day.




Antonin Scalia,

R.I.P.A.G.R

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Feb 20, 2016 - 01:35am PT
Justice Scalia understood that if we allow words in a statute -- or in a constitution -- to mean what we want them to mean, rather than what they say, we ultimately have no legal protection from tyranny imposed by whoever is currently in power. It grieves me to think we are only one vote away from that tyranny.

wow, a bit over the top, don't you think John?

And an interesting view on the meaning of words, word meaning changes with time, so much so that some passages in the Constitution are difficult to parse to a modern reader. So difficult, that much time is spent in law school learning what the meaning of those words are...

Without the ability for words to change their meaning little intellectual progress can be made... certainly that is true in science. It is not to say they can mean anything, but to say that as we gather experience we might find that their original meanings do not quite describe those experiences. The second amendment is an example in which the words have a very different meaning now then they once did, and are subject to misunderstanding, though I'm sure that you and others will volunteer to me just how they should be read, devoid of any connection to how they were "meant" to be read when they were written.

The idea of a "dead" Constitution might be appealing to some, but like all dead things, it would cease to be able to directly contribute to its own narrative. There is plenty of room between the idea of a living document, and the reign of tyranny.
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Feb 20, 2016 - 03:20am PT

A Constitutional Originalist can be compared to a Christian Fundamentalist. They both claim to have access to superior wisdom, simply by referring to a sacred, original written source.

Both Originalists and Fundamentalists can invoke literal interpretation of their written sources as justification for perverse corruptions of the doctrines contained within those same sources.



For example, most people in America don't believe that physically beating a woman into subservience is a Christian thing to do. And, neither is subduing a young child by striking him with a club.

But, many Christian Fundamentalists (as seen on TV) invoke the literal words of the Bible, and state that a woman's role is to obey her man. And that if you spare the rod, and you will spoil the child (wife).

The followers of those Fundamentalist preachers may, or may not actually physically assault their families to terrorize them. But, I have personally seen families that were clearly terrorized by a Bible-thumping husband. Just the threat of physical violence, justified by The Word of God is enough to control some people completely.



A majority of the work in the religious, legal and political professions comprises skillfully convincing people that the words in a holy book, statute, or Constitution, mean something other than what another person says they mean.

A lesser part of the work in the legal and political professions comprises skillfully writing statutes and Constitutions in an unambiguous manner in the first place.

If that task was feasible, or even possible, there would be little room for "creative interpretation", which is a euphemism for rhetorically twisting the facts to suit one's particular purpose or agenda.



Differing people will put forth different agendas, but invoke the exact same statute or law in support of their opposing arguments.



The Second Amendment is a great example of this, because the skillful politicians who drafted the Bill of Rights failed to eliminate ambiguity from the written document.


A well-armed militia being necessary for the security of a free state, the rights of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.


The Gun Control Faction interprets militia to mean the police and the army, but not ordinary citizens. Ergo, citizens have no Constitutional reason to own guns, which are often used to commit crimes. The security of the free state is maintained by a government-mandated, professional standing army. Thus, gun control laws are constitutional, and they protect society.


The Pro-Gun Faction interprets militia to include the citizenry, and especially if it means the citizenry defeating an army under the control of a tyrannical despot. Gun control laws, of any kind, prevent the militia from fulfilling their Constitutional right - nay, their duty - to shoot and kill a despotic tyrant who seizes control, and endangers the security of the free state. So, gun control laws are unconstitutional because they endanger society.


Both of those gun control arguments are based on an Originalist interpretation of the Second Amendment. Both derive their superior wisdom from referencing the original written document, even the exact same word, to prove their point.



The word Originalist has no meaning, whatsoever, as a useful descriptor.

Its role in language is, by turns, as an honorific or as an epithet, depending on the intent of the person using the word.
DanaB

climber
CT
Feb 20, 2016 - 04:02am PT
//The dissent's argument boils down to this: we're afraid of corporate political ads, so we can ban them despite what the First Amendment says about speech.
//

John, do you think it's that simplistic?
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Feb 20, 2016 - 04:19am PT
In particular, I think that analysis should first determine if the group associates voluntarily or involuntarily, but even that distinction has ambiguity.
Our Western-style of government is based on the philosophy of the Social Contract (Locke, Rousseau, etc.). In fact, the first several paragraphs of the Declaration of Independence come straight from the Social Contract playbook.

Philosophically, our form of government is a "voluntary" association. We the People form a government to protect our "inalienable" rights - "That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."

Under the Social Contract, the people agree to the responsibility of abiding by law in exchange for protection.

By definition, we have the right to replace the government with a new government (e.g., revolution) if the government is not living up to it's side of the contract.

In reality, our "association" in modern times is involuntary, as you mentioned.

I would like us to go back to our roots - if you don't abide by our laws, then you have no right to protection of your rights, and you are ejected from our society.



Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Feb 20, 2016 - 06:49am PT
He kept trying to undo 40 years of moving a head...

His son is a priest... Ha ha ha I hope that the rest of the brood never breeds

Glad he is dead. In the history of things he will be seen for the w

O if you Place those letters to greatest position, all in a row next to each other

I'll be said to be offensive. To have gon to far but look at what he did to woman's health care

criminal, should never have been a Supreme anything other than the letter after M+azi he was

The views he tried to ram down our collective throats were so old that a 90 year old disagreed

With what he said

Apple schmeeer


LilaBiene

Trad climber
Technically...the spawning grounds of Yosemite
Feb 20, 2016 - 03:54pm PT
Thanks for posting the link to the article in the Washington Post, Kris. Good stuff.
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Feb 21, 2016 - 04:33am PT
THE LAST TIME A SUPREME COURT VACANCY OCCURRED IN A PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION YEAR WAS 1956.

Justice Brennan was confirmed, with only one dissenting vote.



The Republicans want everybody to forget this.






EDIT:

Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio, Chuck Grassley and Mitch McConnell are LIARS when they say that there is long tradition of presidents declining to fill Supreme Court vacancies.

In the past 152 years, every Supreme Court vacancy during a presidential election year was quickly filled by the president.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Feb 21, 2016 - 07:42am PT
Sorry, to the victor belong the spoils. There's no prize for second place.

Not my design, just the way it is.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 21, 2016 - 07:44am PT
Being an anti-partisan is just another party which stick to their partisan ideology of anti-partisanship

how many here say the same thing over and over
they're all the same, they're all bad
they're all bought and sold

blah blah
falling on deaf ears

maybe look a little deeper

very few agree

Just look back to the Bush years
it could be a lot worse
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Feb 21, 2016 - 03:01pm PT
The guilty always have an excuse.

So do we innocents. I'm guilty of calling them "reasons" instead of excuses, but you choose the side that suits you.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Feb 22, 2016 - 02:15pm PT
THE LAST TIME A SUPREME COURT VACANCY OCCURRED IN A PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION YEAR WAS 1956.

Justice Brennan was confirmed, with only one dissenting vote.



The Republicans want everybody to forget this.

Are you aware, Tom, that Justice Brennan was a liberal? Would Obama likely nominate a centrist or conservative? Not unless you define centrist as someone slightly to the right of the Occupy movement and left of, say, Hillary Clinton.

As for the effect of money in politics, I see that Jeb Bush, the Republican candidate with the biggest campaign contributions, by far, bowed out. So much for money being the decisive factor. I don't expect the press, still damning Scalia after his death as cowards do, to pick up on this point.

John
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 22, 2016 - 02:32pm PT
That is so weak John
The Koch Brothers will spend $860 million

and they will get results
Most the money goes to lower levels
like Governors, Congress and judges

and how will that money be spent
On Smear Campaigns against the Dems

Where is Rubio's money coming from, Kasich, Cruz???
All billionaires and big money interests

And WHY Was your hero spending time at a ranch that has business in front of the Court???
Why do Scalia and Thomas go to Koch Brother functions?

Why did he decide Gore vs. Bush?
Because Scalia was Corrupt as they come, it's as simple as that.


Of Course Obama should appoint a Liberal
Who would Romney Appoint? a conservative

That's the way it works
The people elect the President to represent them
The elected President appoints a justice that represent the electorate

And yes, the tyranny of the five conservative judges has come to a close.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 22, 2016 - 02:43pm PT
The Judiciary Report calls him a racist

Racist Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia States In Ruling That Blacks Are Slower Than Whites Causing Uproar On Social Networking

He Should Be Impeached For Being A Corrupt Racist

December 10. 2015

http://www.judiciaryreport.com/racist_supreme_court_justice_antonin_scalia_says_blacks_slower_than_whites.htm
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 22, 2016 - 02:51pm PT
Three Worst Supreme Court Justices...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alan-singer/three-worst-supreme-court_b_9261632.html

Antonin Scalia, who died last week, was a man of narrow-minded bigotry that he papered over with a theory of jurisprudence he called textualism and original intent.

Scalia claimed, "I take the words as they were promulgated to the people of the United States, and what is the fairly understood meaning of those words. I'm not very good at determining what the aspirations of the American people are . . . If you want somebody who's in touch with what are the evolving standards of decency that reflect a maturing society, ask the congress." However, as applied by Scalia, this judicial theory meant that since he was smarter than everybody else and very argumentative, the other justices should agree that words of the Constitution mean want he wants them to mean.

Scalia's closed mindedness extended to religious beliefs that he tried to impose on others through his position on the Supreme Court. It seems not only was he better than everyone else at interpreting the Constitution but also at understanding the Christian Bible. Although he claimed to be a devote Roman Catholic, Scalia rejected the Vatican II reforms of Pope John XXIII and only attended churches that still used the Latin mass. In a 2013 interview Scalia attributed evil in today's world, or at least the things he saw as evil, to the devil who Scalia charged was responsible for a decline in religious belief. According to Scalia, "In the Gospels, the Devil is doing all sorts of things. He's making pigs run off cliffs, he's possessing people and whatnot ... What he's doing now is getting people not to believe in him or in God. He's much more successful that way."

One of Scalia's most twisted arguments was his concurring position as part of the Citizens United majority that tossed out a federal law restricting corporate donations to political campaigns. For Scalia, corporations are entitled to the same rights as people including "corporate speech." The Citizens United decision allows wealthy individuals like the Koch brothers and powerful businesses to dominate United States elections through money "donated" to "independent" political action committees.

Scalia claimed his vote was in "conformity" with the First Amendment because "Its text offers no foothold for excluding any category of speaker, from single individuals to partnerships of individuals, to unincorporated associations of individuals, to incorporated associations of individuals" and corporations as legal "individuals" are entitled to equal protection of the law. Scalia concluded, "to exclude or impede corporate speech is to muzzle the principal agents of the modern free economy. We should celebrate rather than condemn the addition of this speech to the public debate."

Some of Scalia's other more outrageous and injudicious statements made over the years include:

On due process: "I'm not about to give this man who was captured in a war a full jury trial."

On racial equality: "It does not benefit African-Americans to -- to get them into the University of Texas where they do not do well, as opposed to having them go to a less-advanced school, a less -- a slower-track school where they do well."

On the death penalty, choice, and same-sex marriage: "The death penalty? Give me a break. It's easy. Abortion? Absolutely easy. Nobody ever thought the Constitution prevented restrictions on abortion. Homosexual sodomy? Come on. For 200 years, it was criminal in every state."

On equal rights for people who are gay: "If we cannot have moral feelings against homosexuality, can we have it against murder? Can we have it against other things?"

Scalia had the ability to be completely blind to his own hypocrisy. He criticized the Court's decision recognizing same-sex marriage because "To allow the policy question of same-sex marriage to be considered and resolved by a select, patrician, highly unrepresentative panel of nine is to violate a principle even more fundamental than no taxation without representation: no social transformation without representation." However he had no problem when five members of the group of nine determined the winner of the 2000 Presidential election putting George Bush into office.


The other 2 worst are Roger Taney and Henry Billings Brown
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 22, 2016 - 03:18pm PT
The Republican Party is now America’s largest hate group

Led by Donald Trump, the GOP has abandoned its traditional dogwhistles in favor of a more overt approach to racism

http://www.salon.com/2015/11/27/the_republican_party_is_now_americas_largest_hate_group/

Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Feb 22, 2016 - 04:18pm PT

Are you aware, Tom, that Justice Brennan was a liberal?

So was Eisenhower. At least by today's standards. My Bircher buddy says he was a Commie.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Feb 22, 2016 - 04:21pm PT
"In the Gospels, the Devil is doing all sorts of things. He's making pigs run off cliffs, he's possessing people and whatnot ... What he's doing now is getting people not to believe in him or in God. He's much more successful that way."

So Scalia believed in Satan? He was a satanist then?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Feb 22, 2016 - 04:27pm PT
Gary, Brennan was a liberal by the standards of his day.

John
Jorroh

climber
Feb 22, 2016 - 05:08pm PT
"As for the effect of money in politics, I see that Jeb Bush, the Republican candidate with the biggest campaign contributions, by far, bowed out"

No amount of money could polish that turd.

Says nothing at all about the ability of rich donors to get favorable legislation, non-enforcement of laws, favorable court decisions etc. which is really the problem.

Trying to tilt the field in a presidential election is a pretty heavy lift, even with the media on your side.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 22, 2016 - 05:12pm PT
That was my next post

JEB! was the problem, not the money backing him
does he get to keep that money?

my prediction:
He will be back
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 22, 2016 - 05:23pm PT
Looking Back

By Jeffrey Toobin

February 29, 2016 Issue
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/02/29/antonin-scalia-looking-backward


Antonin Scalia, who died this month, after nearly three decades on the Supreme Court, devoted his professional life to making the United States a less fair, less tolerant, and less admirable democracy. Fortunately, he mostly failed. Belligerent with his colleagues, dismissive of his critics, nostalgic for a world where outsiders knew their place and stayed there, Scalia represents a perfect model for everything that President Obama should avoid in a successor. The great Justices of the Supreme Court have always looked forward; their words both anticipated and helped shape the nation that the United States was becoming. Chief Justice John Marshall read the new Constitution to allow for a vibrant and progressive federal government. Louis Brandeis understood the need for that government to regulate an industrializing economy. Earl Warren saw that segregation was poison in the modern world. Scalia, in contrast, looked backward.

His revulsion toward homosexuality, a touchstone of his world view, appeared straight out of his sheltered, nineteen-forties boyhood. When, in 2003, the Court ruled that gay people could no longer be thrown in prison for having consensual sex, Scalia dissented, and wrote, “Today’s opinion is the product of a Court, which is the product of a law-profession culture, that has largely signed on to the so-called homosexual agenda, by which I mean the agenda promoted by some homosexual activists directed at eliminating the moral opprobrium that has traditionally attached to homosexual conduct.” He went on, “Many Americans do not want persons who openly engage in homosexual conduct as partners in their business, as scoutmasters for their children, as teachers in their children’s schools, or as boarders in their home. They view this as protecting themselves and their families from a life style that they believe to be immoral and destructive.”

But it was in his jurisprudence that Scalia most self-consciously looked to the past. He pioneered “originalism,” a theory holding that the Constitution should be interpreted in line with the beliefs of the white men, many of them slave owners, who ratified it in the late eighteenth century. During Scalia’s first two decades as a Justice, Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist rarely gave him important constitutional cases to write for the Court; the Chief feared that Scalia’s extreme views would repel Sandra Day O’Connor, the Court’s swing vote, who had a toxic relationship with him during their early days as colleagues. (Scalia’s clashes with O’Connor were far more significant than his much chronicled friendship with Ruth Bader Ginsburg.) It was not until 2008, after John G. Roberts, Jr., had succeeded Rehnquist, that Scalia finally got a blockbuster: District of Columbia v. Heller, about the Second Amendment. Scalia spent thousands of words plumbing the psyches of the Framers, to conclude (wrongly, as John Paul Stevens pointed out in his dissent) that they had meant that individuals, not just members of “well-regulated” state militias, had the right to own handguns. Even Scalia’s ideological allies recognized the folly of trying to divine the “intent” of the authors of the Constitution concerning questions that those bewigged worthies could never have anticipated. During the oral argument of a challenge to a California law that required, among other things, warning labels on violent video games, Justice Samuel Alito interrupted Scalia’s harangue of a lawyer by quipping, “I think what Justice Scalia wants to know is what James Madison thought about video games. Did he enjoy them?”

Scalia described himself as an advocate of judicial restraint, who believed that the courts should defer to the democratically elected branches of government. In reality, he lunged at opportunities to overrule the work of Presidents and of legislators, especially Democrats. Scalia helped gut the Voting Rights Act, overturn McCain-Feingold and other campaign-finance rules, and, in his last official act, block President Obama’s climate-change regulations. Scalia’s reputation, like the Supreme Court’s, is also stained by his role in the majority in Bush v. Gore. His oft-repeated advice to critics of the decision was “Get over it.”

Not long ago, Scalia told an interviewer that he had cancelled his subscription to the Washington Post and received his news from the Wall Street Journal, the Washington Times (owned by the Reverend Sun Myung Moon’s Unification Church), and conservative talk radio. In this, as in his jurisprudence, he showed that he lived within the sealed bubble of contemporary conservative thought. That bubble also helps explain the Republican response to the new vacancy on the Court. Within hours of Scalia’s death, Mitch McConnell, the Senate Majority Leader, announced that the Senate will refuse even to allow a vote on Obama’s nominee, regardless of who he or she turns out to be.

This Republican intransigence is a sign of panic, not of power. The Court now consists of four liberals (Ginsburg, Stephen Breyer, Sonia Sotomayor, and Elena Kagan) and three hard-core conservatives (Roberts, Clarence Thomas, and Alito), plus Anthony Kennedy, who usually but not always sides with the conservatives. With Scalia’s death, there is a realistic possibility of a liberal majority for the first time in two generations, since the last days of the Warren Court. A Democratic victory in November will all but assure this transformation. Republicans are heading to the barricades; Democrats were apparently too blindsided to recognize good news when they got it.

Like Nick Carraway, Scalia “wanted the world to be in uniform and at a sort of moral attention forever.” The world didn’t coöperate. Scalia won a great deal more than he lost, and he and his allies succeeded in transforming American politics into a cash bazaar, with seats all but put up for bidding. But even though Scalia led a conservative majority on the Court for virtually his entire tenure, he never achieved his fondest hopes—thanks first to O’Connor and then to Kennedy. Roe v. Wade endures. Affirmative action survives. Obamacare lives. Gay rights are ascendant; the death penalty is not. (These positions are contingent, of course, and cases this year may weaken the Court’s resolve.) For all that Presidents shape the Court, the Justices rarely stray too far from public opinion. And, on the social issues where the Court has the final word, the real problem for Scalia’s heirs is that they are out of step with the rest of the nation. The public wants diversity, not intolerance; more marriages and fewer executions; less money in politics, not more. Justice Scalia’s views—passionately felt and pungently expressed though they were—now seem like so many boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past. ♦
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Feb 22, 2016 - 06:16pm PT
http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/oconnor-undermines-gop-talking-points-court-vacancy
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Feb 22, 2016 - 06:34pm PT
JEL? Per your last post:

Feb 22, 2016 - 04:27pm PT
Gary, Brennan was a liberal by the standards of his day.
John

I'm maybe a little naive about current Republican politics, so help me out here?

Since Republican President & war hero Eisenhower nominated Brennan, & you say Brennan was a liberal ----- was:

a. Eisenhower a liberal?
b. Eisenhower duped by Brennan?
c. Or have standards for what determines liberals & conservatives changed since then?

Is my childhood hero President Eisenhower now on the conservative schist list for his support for building our interstate highway systems & helping to generate a decade of middle-class prosperity with high taxes?

Sigh.

It ain't easy being a liberal Republican in these trying times.
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Feb 22, 2016 - 06:46pm PT
10b4m, thanks for that link.

Sandra Day O'Conner rips the GOP over their call to leave a Supreme Court seat empty for a year.

She was a conservative justice, appointed by Reagan. Her opposition to the GOP's official position indicates just how internally dysfunctional the GOP has become.




In another article, Orrin Hatch says the GOP's blockade of an Obama nominee is to protect the Supreme Court from becoming politicized. He also repeats the GOP lie that presidents usually don't nominate justices in election years.

Those GOP guys must all buy their soundbites from the same online stock-slogan store - - - StutterShock.com


http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/hatch-dont-denigrate-court-through-constitutional-process


Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Feb 22, 2016 - 07:09pm PT
Gary, Brennan was a liberal by the standards of his day.

Brennan was a commie by the standards of this day.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Feb 22, 2016 - 10:09pm PT
But this day is incredibly reactionary..
Hopefully the millennials are bringing it back left, to center
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Feb 23, 2016 - 08:03am PT
Wikipedia has somewhat supplied me answers to my above questions about Justice Brennan.

Brennan was named to the U.S. Supreme Court through a recess appointment by Dwight Eisenhower in 1956, shortly before the 1956 presidential election. Presidential advisers thought the appointment of a Roman Catholic Democrat from the Northeast would woo critical voters in the upcoming re-election campaign for Eisenhower, a Republican.[10]

Brennan gained the attention of Herbert Brownell, United States Attorney General and Eisenhower's chief legal affairs adviser, when Brennan had to give a speech at a conference (as a substitute for New Jersey Supreme Court Chief Justice Vanderbilt).[11] To Brownell, Brennan's speech seemed to suggest a marked conservatism, especially on criminal matters.

Other factors playing into Brennan's appointment were his Catholicism, his status as a state court judge (no state judge had been appointed to the High Court since Benjamin Cardozo in 1932), and Eisenhower's desire to appear bipartisan after his appointments of two Republicans: Earl Warren (former Governor of California) and John Marshall Harlan II.[12]

Justice Brennan is one of thirteen justices in the history of the Supreme Court who identified as Roman Catholic.[13]

His nomination faced a small amount of controversy from two angles. The National Liberal League opposed his nomination because they thought he would rely on his religious beliefs rather than the Constitution when ruling, and Senator Joseph McCarthy had read transcripts of Brennan's speech where he decried overzealous anti-Communist investigations as "witch-hunts." After a confirmation hearing in 1957 in which Brennan defended himself against McCarthy's attacks and proclaimed that he would rule solely on the basis of the Constitution and not on Church law,[14] he was confirmed by a near-unanimous vote, with only Senator McCarthy voting against him
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_J._Brennan,_Jr.

Just imagine folks! President Eisenhower had already appointed two conservative Supreme Court Justices & he had a desire to appear bipartisan by appointing Brennan.

Sigh.

Those days are gone in America, to my great regret.
zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 23, 2016 - 08:16am PT
Though nobody seems to have paid attention, this is Ike's greatest contribution.


[Click to View YouTube Video]

Interesting that he does not once stress the need for an armed militia in addition.



Full here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gahL5j4ack


Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 23, 2016 - 08:51am PT
Eisenhower was a Great Liberal
At that time, the Parties weren't conservative/liberal

The Conservatives in the South were Dems
And the Northern Liberals were Republicans

Look at this Election map from 1952

It shows how different politics was back them
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 23, 2016 - 08:56am PT
Oh my GOD!!

Look at that Party Platform, couldn't be more Liberal,
or pinko Commie by today's standards

It looks just like Bernies!

Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Feb 23, 2016 - 09:15am PT
OK! I must confess I ran Craig's 1956 Republican Party platform past Snopes. They are a little long-winded about it, but it passes their tests, as based on facts & substantially true.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/politicians/1956.asp
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Feb 23, 2016 - 09:25am PT
The libtards crowing about Eisenhower nominating Brennan should remember that Eisenhower later said that it was one of his two biggest mistakes as president--the other was nominating Warren (a perhaps even worse justice inasmuch as was chief justice).
One may have thought that the Repubs would have learned their lesson and indeed they did make some good appointments, but they soon forgot the lessons of history and appointed such abominations as Blackmun, Stevens, and Souter. Even Roberts is nothing to write home about--I think Alito is the only relatively recent justice we can count on, and then Thomas going back a bit further.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Feb 23, 2016 - 11:32am PT
^^^
I hate to sound impolite on these threads but damn, blahblah, you are an idiot. If by "count on", you mean decide a case on a personal disposition rather than the facts and law then, you're right, Alito is your man. Also, if you fail to see Roberts as anything other than a conservative shill, you aren't looking very hard. One of the few cases in recent memory where he has shown any amount of bipartisanship, King v. Burwell, appeared to be concerned more with the appearance of his legacy as Chief Justice. Although he had famously commented at his confirmation hearing (relatively tame despite his conservative credentials) that he would simply be "calling balls and stikes" was clearly not an accurate statement of his approach.

The reason why some judges become more liberal after appointment is that they are now appointed for life, so they aren't beholded to anyone for reelection and also, I believe, they have a greater clarity of what their role in society is. They become aware that their decisions have a far greater and lasting impact than before and that can mean abandoning a rigid world view like those carried by a Scalia or Alito.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Feb 23, 2016 - 11:49am PT
Just imagine folks! President Eisenhower had already appointed two conservative Supreme Court Justices & he had a desire to appear bipartisan by appointing Brennan.

Sigh.

Those days are gone in America, to my great regret.

That is, indeed, the problem. As Steve (Fat Dad) implies, federal judges change their minds on the bench. While of late, the only changes on the Supreme Court have been Republican appointees moving toward the left or center, appointees of Democrats have moved right, too, such as Justices White and Frankfurter.

If I were President Obama, I would nominate a centrist judge and put the onus on the Republicans to say why the nominee is unqualified. If he nominates someone with the leanings of Kagan, Sotomayor or Ginsburg, the Republicans can legitimately oppose the nominee under the Bork doctrine, originated by the Democrats, that the nominee is an extremist. If he nominates someone like Breyer, who sometimes breaks ranks with the liberals or, heaven forbid, someone like Kennedy, the Republicans will have a tougher time.

I understand that at least one pro-choice Republican, former judge and Nevada Governor Brian Sandoval has put his hat in the ring. I'd love to see a nomination like that, because it would send the "I'd rather be right than president" wing of the Republican party into a hilarious apoplexy. The Heritage Foundation and Ted Cruz would end up in orbit.

I doubt Obama's administration has the wit to act in this way, but it would be fun - and good for the country - if he goes ahead and nominates a centrist.

John
Fossil climber

Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
Feb 23, 2016 - 11:55am PT
Scalia + Supreme Court Conservatives = GWB presidency = Iraq invasion = ISIS.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Feb 23, 2016 - 11:58am PT
Wayne, I don't think it's fair to blame Scalia for ISIS. Bush v. Gore was a 7-2 decision.

John
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2016 - 12:22pm PT
If I were President Obama, I would nominate a centrist judge and put the onus on the Republicans to say why the nominee is unqualified. If he nominates someone with the leanings of Kagan, Sotomayor or Ginsburg, the Republicans can legitimately oppose the objection under the Bork doctrine, originated by the Democrats, that the nominee is an extremist. If he nominates someone like Breyer, who sometimes breaks ranks with the liberals or, heaven forbid, someone like Kennedy, the Republicans will have a tougher time.

I agree.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Feb 23, 2016 - 12:38pm PT
The reason why some judges become more liberal after appointment is that they are now appointed for life, so they aren't beholded to anyone for reelection and also, I believe [busllshit bullshit bullshit]

Your "reason" is provably false in the case of the most famous turncoat of recent times, the lamentable (miscarriage-of)-"Justice" Souter.
He was appointed to the Supreme Court from the First Circuit, and, as a federal judge, had lifetime tenure, and before that, he was on the New Hampshire Supreme Court, and also had lifetime tenure (with a mandatory retirement age).
While you couched your (mis)-statement with the weasely "some," one may question the legal intelligence of someone who puts forth a theory that is clearly inapplicable in explaining the most notorious instance of a justice "going rogue."
A more likely explanation is that it's simply about power: a conservative justice is restrained in his rulings, and only interferes with the acts of other branches of government in cases of clear violations of the Constitution (as in the noted case of King v. Burwell, but sadly the conservative justices were outnumbered by the hardcore liberals and the opportunistic villains Roberts and Kennedy). A "liberal" justice, on the other hand, is free to do whatever he pleases, without any fidelity to the Constitution or any other body of law. As but one of many egregious examples, consider that libs would find the death penalty to be unconstitutional, when its existence is acknowledged in the very Bill of Rights!
It is human nature, especially among weak minded sycophants such as Souter, to seize upon whatever power they can. Hence, justices are far more likely to move to the left than to the right.
The only remedy for this is to support strong-willed, disciplined, intellectuals such a the late, great, Justice Scalia, who will resist the "siren song" of the libs to seize power, and exercise judicial restraint (which does not mean, as has been noted, that they will stand by while the President or Congress clearly violate the Constitution, as Obama has done so many times--and I predict his illegal behavior will only increase now that Scalia's gone and the threat of impeachment recedes).
crunch

Social climber
CO
Feb 23, 2016 - 12:44pm PT
Thanks, JEleazarian. Nicely put.

EDIT:
Blahblah, Hope you are all healed from your accident a year or so ago.

Re the death penalty.

Yes, entirely constitutional:

The 5th Amendment says: "No person shall be ... deprived of life ... without due process of law."
The 14th Amendment says: "No state shall ... deprive any person of life ... without due process of law."

Both imply capital punishment is OK.

But the 8th Amendment proscribes "cruel and unusual punishment." And the 14th requires "the equal protection of the laws".

It could be, and has been argued that in some states blacks and poor people are executed with more frequency than whites and wealthy people, for equivalent crimes, therefore contravening the 14th amendment. Also, there have been cases of injections and electrocutions where things have not gone smoothly and, allegedly, great suffering has been caused, i.e. cruelty, i.e. contravening the 8th Amendment.

What is in question is not capital punishment per se but flawed implementation, by the states, of capital punishment.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Feb 23, 2016 - 01:43pm PT
blahblah, it's a good thing you believe the drivel you spew since no one else does.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Feb 23, 2016 - 02:17pm PT
What is in question is not capital punishment per se but flawed implementation, by the states, of capital punishment.

Would that were the case.
In fact, at least several Supreme Court Justices voted to find the death penalty unconstitutional in all cases, to wit, the late Justices Brennan and Marshall. I'm unsure if any current justices find the death penalty to be unconstitutional per se (I don't think any admit to it at least), but inasmuch as several liberal justices have so found, it's entirely reasonable to consider that future liberal justices will as well.

It may be worthwhile taking a movement to consider how outlandish that is--for judges who have sworn to uphold the Constitution to "find" that actions countenanced by the Constitution are unconstitutional!

Thanks for the good wishes on my recovery--amazingly (and thanks to good medical care), I'm climbing away more-or-less as I used to, with nothing but a sore back and wonky shoulder as a reminder of my accident.

dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2016 - 02:38pm PT
"The Republican members of the Senate Judiciary Committee have officially declared they will not hold a hearing on anyone President Obama nominates for the Supreme Court.

This is quite a gamble. I don't think it will play well outside of conservative circles when Obama nominates a Justice and the republicans completely stonewall him. If Trump is the nominee, which now seems sort of likely, and large numbers of republicans stay home on Election Day, which is kind of the prevailing thought (although who the hell knows), then this move could really backfire.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 23, 2016 - 02:55pm PT
The Republicans plan on stealing the election, so they must hold off Obama's pick until they have another fascist in as President
that can pick another fascist like Scalia
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 23, 2016 - 02:59pm PT
Scalia’s Fascist Roots Run Deep

http://vegasjessie.com/2012/06/30/scalias-fascist-roots-run-deep/

Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia was appointed to the Supreme Court by President Reagan in 1986. He has spent twenty-five years on the bench thus far, ruling always in the direction of the Right. His views are considered almost fascist. In fact, he almost fits the definition of fascism. He is a strict Constitutionalist believing in strong Executive Branch powers. He’s against the Civil Rights Act and has said he would’ve sided with the dissenters in the 1896 Plessy vs Ferguson where legalized segregation was upheld. We are talking about a guy who just might have sided with the Confederate States in the Civil War as he firmly believes in states’ rights.

Scalia: Always Conservative
How did Antonin become the curmudgeon he has evolved into? Perhaps we need simply to look at his dad, Eugene Scalia. He had enormous influence on Justice Scalia. He sent his son to military school where they had to pledge allegiance to Mussolini, Alan Dershowitz has asserted. Scalia Sr. founded the American Fascist Party in 1934 only two years before Antonin was born. Apparently a 60 Minutes interview included extensive biographical information on Justice Scalia and his family, where they identify his father as “a professor of romance languages at Brooklyn College” and failed to disclose that he was a member of the American-Italian Fascist Party during Mussolini’s regime in the 1930s. He’s a man who is well in the tradition of Franco and Mussolini.

Mr. Scalia went on an infamous hunting trip with Dick Cheney in 2004 to his vacation spot in Southern Louisiana. It seems Mr. Cheney’s trip raised growing questions about the propriety of a Supreme Court justice going on a hunt the same time Scalia was hearing a case involving the vice president. The case, which has to do with whether Cheney must reveal who serves on his energy task force. Further complicating the question: The host of the hunting trip is a prominent member of the energy industry. Of course, he did not recuse himself from the case and The Court ruled in Cheney’s favor.

In that same 60 Minutes interview, he told Leslie Stahl and the American people to “get over it” with regards to the legitimacy of the Bush v Gore decision. A puppet of the Bush administration and a staunch enemy of most democratic principles, it’s easy to see why. His father’s allegiances lie with people who were sympathetic with the ways of the Nazis, who basically believe that every function of government should be run by private corporations, that government should be strictly authoritarian, and that there should be no freedom for people within a country. They supported the Nazis in the lead up to World War II. In a notable case, Senator Prescott Bush, an erstwhile member of the American Fascist party, was sanctioned for doing business dealings with the Nazis even after World War II started. It’s no wonder Scalia is the way he is. A corporatist, a segregationist and a big advocate of state’s rights, he may as well be a plantation owner in the Antebellum South. I don’t think his interpretation of the Constitution is what it’s supposed to be. He has a conservative agenda and will always rule for the wealthy corporations. If Willard Romney had been elected, he would have only appointed more like him on the bench.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Feb 23, 2016 - 03:49pm PT
He is a strict Constitutionalist believing in strong Executive Branch powers. He’s against the Civil Rights Act and has said he would’ve sided with the dissenters in the 1896 Plessy vs Ferguson where legalized segregation was upheld.

Craig Fry here is an example of the appalling ignorance in your cut-and-paste job:
If Scalia said he would have sided with the dissenters, that means he would have voted against upholding segregation. In judicial opinions (as with the English language generally), to "dissent" is to "disagree"--a "dissenting opinion" by a judge on a multi-judge panel (such as the Supreme Court) means that the judge would have voted against the majority opinion for whatever reason the judge expresses in the dissent.
Your cut-and-paste job did not contain a mere typo, as I see from quick Internet searching that Scalia did in fact say he would have dissented in Plessy. Whoever wrote that article lacks even the most basic knowledge of legal concepts, unless the point of the article was somehow to note that Scalia was opposed to discrimination.
zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 23, 2016 - 06:39pm PT
lacks even the most basic knowledge of legal concepts


hahahahahahahaha!
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Feb 23, 2016 - 08:30pm PT
Craig are you sure...

The Republicans plan on stealing the election, so they must hold off Obama's pick until they have another fascist in as President
that can pick another fascist like Scalia

[Click to View YouTube Video]



Risk

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Feb 23, 2016 - 08:39pm PT
"The Republican members of the Senate Judiciary Committee have officially declared they will not hold a hearing on anyone President Obama nominates for the Supreme Court."

This is quite a gamble. I don't think it will play well outside of conservative circles when Obama nominates a Justice and the republicans completely stonewall him. If Trump is the nominee, which now seems sort of likely, and large numbers of republicans stay home on Election Day, which is kind of the prevailing thought (although who the hell knows), then this move could really backfire.

I'm up for the gamble. It will be a double disaster for the republican'ts. They'll loose the Senate and the Whitehouse. No matter what, they don't gain from anything here. They lost already.

Public opinion for the DinosauR Party is crumbling. It's sad, really. Some were good people.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 23, 2016 - 08:58pm PT
It's sort of the seminal if not crowning finale of an eight year run of blatant obstruction. It highlights and casts in cement the reality that the right has no interest in or ability to govern. It won't play well outside of their now much-to-the-right base which is both saturated in and addicted to hysterium. But everywhere else it won't be well-regarded by the public and - when combined with the wholesale alienation of women, blacks and latinos - the result will suck the air out of them come election day.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Feb 23, 2016 - 09:18pm PT
healyje! Re your post:

It's sort of the seminal if not crowning finale of an eight year run of blatant obstruction. It highlights and casts in cement the reality that the right has no interest in or ability to govern. It won't play well outside of their now much-to-the-right base which is both saturated in and addicted to hysterium. But everywhere else it won't be well-regarded by the public and - when combined with the wholesale alienation of women, blacks and latinos - the result will suck the air out of them come election day.


I do hope you are correct, and that the sane voters outnumber the racist, & the stupid, & their puppet-masters among the ultra-wealthy.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 24, 2016 - 12:26am PT
It'll be the biggest intelligence test ever conducted - delusional morons vs the appalled.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Feb 24, 2016 - 06:58am PT
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/supreme-court-emerges-as-issue-in-ohio-senate-contest_us_56cd90fae4b041136f18d635

Poll Signals Trouble For GOP In Blockading Supreme Court

Multiple public opinion polls are showing that the Dinosaur Party will lose big if they block a supreme court appointment.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Feb 24, 2016 - 07:46am PT
It is truly amazing. Republicans have long hated Obama enough that they abandoned what's best for the country for what's best for their party. This is something new and different though. Republicans now hate Obama so much that they will even do what is not in the interest of their own party to oppose him. Interesting times...

Curt
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2016 - 08:15am PT
I have a feeling at some point--maybe in a few months as primaries wind down--they'll back off a little and at least hold hearings, although probably not confirm anyone. The optics of a black president, potentially nominating a person of color, and being ignored by a white Senate, would look really bad to the general electorate.
LilaBiene

Trad climber
Technically...the spawning grounds of Yosemite
Feb 24, 2016 - 08:22am PT

http://www.scotusblog.com/2016/02/a-responsibility-i-take-seriously/
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 24, 2016 - 08:31am PT
The Right Wing hypocrisy is frightening.
How do they think they can get away with it other than assuming all America right wingers are just plain stupid and gullible.
Oh, ya I remember now, just feed them fearful lies about tyranny and commies



PROOF Republicans Claiming Obama Shouldn’t Pick Supreme Court Justice Are Hypocrites (QUOTES)

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2016/02/14/proof-republicans-claiming-obama-shouldnt-pick-supreme-court-justice-are-hypocrites-quotes/

Here’s the thing about history, though — it will come back to bite you when you least expect it, and prove that you may, in fact, be a huge hypocrite. Here are some quotes from back when former President George W. Bush was trying to get a vote on his nominees. And you may recognize a couple of the names:

“Because of the unprecedented obstruction of our Democratic colleagues, the Republican conference intends to restore the principle that, regardless of party, any President’s judicial nominees, after full debate, deserve a simple up -or -down vote.” – Sen. Mitch McConnell (R-KY) (5/19/05)

“I hope that by the end of this session of Congress, my colleagues will give the President’s qualified nominees what they, and all current and future nominees deserve: the opportunity to have a fair up-or-down vote on the floor of the Senate on their nomination. For the sake of the Senate, the nation, and our independent judiciary, I hope that these partisans will not launch more filibusters, but from what I’ve heard today, I won’t hold my breath.” – Sen. John Cornyn (R-TX) (3/26/04)

“The bottom line has to be that the president has the right to get a vote, an up-or-down vote, on his nominees.” – Sen. John Cornyn (R-TX) (11/10/04)

“Let’s debate the nominees and give our advice and consent. It is a simple ‘yea’ or ‘nay,’ when called to the altar to vote. Filibustering a nominee into oblivion is misguided warfare and the wrong way for a minority party to leverage influence in the Senate. Threatening to grind legislative activity to a standstill if they do not get their way is like being a bully on the school yard playground. Let’s do our jobs. Nothing is nuclear about asking the full Senate to take an up-or-down vote on judicial nominees. It is the way the Senate has operated for 214 years.” – Sen. Chuck Grassley (R-IA) (5/23/05)

“But denying these patriotic Americans, of both parties, who seek to serve this country an up-or-down vote is simply not fair, and it certainly was not the intention of our Founding Fathers when they designed and created this very institution.” – Sen. Richard Burr (R-NC) (4/20/05)

“Every nominee deserves a prompt up-or-down vote on the Senate floor.” – Dick Cheney (5/10/04)
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Feb 24, 2016 - 10:02am PT
I'm always so confident in the overwhelming rightness and obvious popularity of my partisan information bubble until I look up and notice a Republican controlled Senate or Trump presidency.
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Feb 24, 2016 - 10:31am PT
(Bush should) "not name a nominee until after the November election is complete." "The Senate Judiciary committee should seriously consider not scheduling confirmation hearings on the nomination until after the political campaign season is over." Joe Biden

None of these quotes matter. People have evolved the intelligence to not let facts interfere with their partisan beliefs.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Feb 24, 2016 - 10:48am PT
None of these quotes matter. People have evolved the intelligence to not let facts interfere with their partisan beliefs.

But don't you know that political implications from facts have a time dimension?

It amuses me to see partisans for either party sanctimoniously accuse the other of wrongful conduct on court appointments. The positions of both parties are identical -- it only depends on which party controls which branch of the government.

John
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2016 - 11:24am PT
Justice Sandoval?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2016/02/24/brian-sandoval-republican-governor-of-nevada-is-being-vetted-for-supreme-court-vacancy/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_pp-nevada-115pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Feb 24, 2016 - 11:27am PT
Dirtbag, Sandoval is the person I had mentioned when I suggested that Obama should consider a centrist. If the Republicans were reasonably risk averse, they'd confirm him, since if Trump becomes their nominee, they not only will fail to regain the White House, they'll lose the Senate, too.

John
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2016 - 11:29am PT
Someone in the White House must've read your post. :-) He's being vetted.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2016 - 12:31pm PT
And presto, republicans have reportedly already nixed the idea of a Sandoval nomination.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2016 - 01:10pm PT
Yes, all in all, a good troll.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Feb 24, 2016 - 01:39pm PT
Wouldn't you know it? The first time Obama takes my advice, it inures to the detriment of the Republicans.

John
Spiny Norman

Social climber
Boring, Oregon
Feb 24, 2016 - 03:43pm PT
Norton

Social climber
Feb 24, 2016 - 04:14pm PT
it would be very interesting if President Obama did nominate Sandoval, a Republican governor for the Scalia vacancy.

Would all the many congressional Republicans break their promise and have a hearing?

That might really piss off their base, actually considering an Obama nomination.....

It could all hit the fan pretty soon, and be quite entertaining to follow....
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 24, 2016 - 04:36pm PT
The stupid remarks made by Joe Biden about making Supreme Court Appointees during an election year were made in Mid June of an election year, not in late February.

So it's not completely the same, since we all knew H.W. Bush would lose in Nov. 1992 by then.

And Obama is not a Lame Duck President yet, so McConnell was WRONG when he called Obama a lame duck.
you become a lame duck after the election has been finalized and you will not be coming back in January as President.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 24, 2016 - 06:05pm PT
you got me Blah blah
the author really got the language wrong
you win

But what about the rest of the article

Scalia Sr. founded the American Fascist Party in 1934 only two years before Antonin was born. Apparently a 60 Minutes interview included extensive biographical information on Justice Scalia and his family, where they identify his father as “a professor of romance languages at Brooklyn College” and failed to disclose that he was a member of the American-Italian Fascist Party during Mussolini’s regime in the 1930s. He’s a man who is well in the tradition of Franco and Mussolini.

Mr. Scalia went on an infamous hunting trip with Dick Cheney in 2004 to his vacation spot in Southern Louisiana. It seems Mr. Cheney’s trip raised growing questions about the propriety of a Supreme Court justice going on a hunt the same time Scalia was hearing a case involving the vice president. The case, which has to do with whether Cheney must reveal who serves on his energy task force. Further complicating the question: The host of the hunting trip is a prominent member of the energy industry. Of course, he did not recuse himself from the case and The Court ruled in Cheney’s favor.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Feb 24, 2016 - 06:14pm PT

The optics of a black president, potentially nominating a person of color, and being ignored by a white Senate, would look really bad to the general electorate.

Not to the trump supporters.


since if Trump becomes their nominee, they not only will fail to regain the White House, they'll lose the Senate, too.

I am not sure about that.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Feb 24, 2016 - 06:50pm PT
you got me Blah blah
the author really got the language wrong
you win

But what about the rest of the article

We all make mistakes, I make plenty, but the error in the article you linked strongly suggested to me that the author isn't qualified to write anything about the law.
Anyway, importing whatever Scalia's father did seems unfair and irrelevant to judging Scalia, although it may be interesting background.
I do recall that there have been many allegations that Scalia should have recused himself on various cases over the years--it's not my area of law, but as I understand it, the Supreme Court justices don't even have ethics rules as to recusals, it's just left to the judgment of each justice. Scalia must have believed that his judging wasn't affected by his various personal relationships. Probably not an ideal situation, but I don't think anyone seriously contends that Scalia was deciding cases to help the individual parties before the court rather than to settle more general legal principles.

Would it surprise you to know that Scalia's son Gene is partner in a very prominent, very profitable national law firm that's reputation is to a large extent based on having a thriving practice before the Supreme Court (although Gene doesn't personally work on Supreme Court cases, as I understand it)? I was attorney in the Denver office of that law firm for many years and my few interactions with Gene were distinctly odd and unpleasant, but again, we don't normally judge people by their relatives.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 25, 2016 - 11:23am PT
So now, we find out that Scalia was there as part of a meeting of a secret society:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/justice-scalia-spent-his-last-hours-with-members-of-this-secretive-society-of-elite-hunters/2016/02/24/1d77af38-db20-11e5-891a-4ed04f4213e8_story.html
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2016 - 11:24am PT
That will give the conspiracy theorists a lot to chew on.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Feb 25, 2016 - 11:34am PT
Boy, Ken, talk about a reach! From the article cited:

"A review of public records shows that some of the men who were with Scalia at the ranch are connected through the International Order of St. Hubertus, whose members gathered at least once before at the same ranch for a celebratory weekend."

That sure proves a lot! If I go to Disneyland, I'll bet that some of the people there with me have some sort of secret connection, too. Is the idea that a Justice should not associate with anyone about whom public records shows a connection to a "secret society" -- whatever that may be?

In a way, this strikes me as a relative of some of Craig's attacks on Scalia. Unable to address his legal reasoning, they resort to innuendo to attack his character. Pretty sad.

John
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 25, 2016 - 11:37am PT
International Order of St. Hubris

Fixed that for you...
Spiny Norman

Social climber
Boring, Oregon
Feb 25, 2016 - 12:14pm PT
"Unable to address his legal reasoning, they resort to innuendo to attack his character."

There exists a pretty vast literature that addresses Scalia's legal reasoning.

I don't think Scalia himself would ever argue that his opponents could not "address" his legal reasoning in general. In specific cases where he felt the case was ironclad, perhaps. But not in general.

That's because, whatever else Scalia was, he was not an idiot (at least, when he was younger; toward the end of his life he was clearly slipping).
Jorroh

climber
Feb 25, 2016 - 12:25pm PT
Obama should put forward an increasingly conservative roster of nominees.

As each gets rejected, one after the other, then hopefully that will rule them out as candidates when the next president is elected.






dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2016 - 12:29pm PT
Sandoval has just said he doesn't want to be considered. Who can blame him?
Jorroh

climber
Feb 25, 2016 - 12:48pm PT
"Unable to address his legal reasoning, they resort to innuendo to attack his character."

I'm not a lawyer, I'm not that interested in the details of the law...I'm too busy with lots of other priorities to try and learn about the law in any sort of detail.

To me the law is a black box and what I'm interested in is the outcomes that that black box produces. I think that is probably how all but a tiny percentage of Americans view the law.

Honestly, I could give a flying f*#k about the elegance of his legal reasoning or the pithiness of his written opinions. What I see is a guy who appeared to find legal justifications for his political preferences.
Justifications and preferences that have done tangible damage to democracy, and tilted the economic playing field, even more that it already is, in favor of the rich.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 25, 2016 - 07:30pm PT
relative of some of Craig's attacks on Scalia.
I had no part in insinuating that it was some kind of "secret society"

But I ask
Was your father a conservative?
How about Blahblah, what was your father?

We know bluring and fatty were raised under right wing tyranny.

My father was a liberal, and wow, it turns out I'm a liberal too...

Scalia's father was THE founding member of the America Fascist Party.
These are facts, not some liberal smear campaign.
so wrong again John
zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 25, 2016 - 07:45pm PT
If Obama had any sense, he would nominate Wolfman Jack for the Supreme Court.


Wait a minute, you're anominating a dead nigra to the court?
-Bitch McConnel, court Jester


Yep!
-Barack H. Obama, Chief O' Kenya

Obama could then move "progressively" through Martin Luther King, H. Rap Brown, Huey P. Newton, Eldridge Cleaver, The Dread Malcom X unitl Bitch finally caves in and says

hmmmmmmmmmm ... the musical nigra doesn't seem that bad ... any live nigras available?

Anybody know is Bob Marley is still kicking?

JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Feb 25, 2016 - 10:48pm PT
To me the law is a black box and what I'm interested in is the outcomes that that black box produces. I think that is probably how all but a tiny percentage of Americans view the law. [emphasis supplied]

If that's really true, the country is in more trouble than we'd be in a Trump/Sanders election. If the population doesn't understand or care about what the words in a law mean, we've already arrived at a lawless tyranny, but I may be overreacting because I've spent most of my life in the legal business. I've dealt with courts populated by judges who were social engineers, using their position to make the world right in their own eyes.

One of the worst examples was a superior court judge here, whose brother was perhaps the best bankruptcy judge before whom I've appeared. The superior court judge was convinced that men got the shaft in divorce proceedings, and he was doing all who could to make sure that didn't happen in his court, the statutes be damned. I suppose if you viewed the world that way, you wanted a black box that produced his outcomes.

What if you didn't see the world his way? To whom could you turn for recourse? Appeals have limits; the factual determinations of lower courts can't be set aside unless they're clearly erroneous, which is a very deferential standard. Amendment to legislation wouldn't work, since he didn't care what the legislation said. Getting him removed from the bench would work, but good luck doing it. If the judge is a federal Article III judge, it's even harder. He or she can only be removed by impeachment.

Perhaps only if you've experienced that sort of judicial fiat will you be as aghast as I am with the "black box" approach to law. Our government is one of checks and balances for a very good reason. Without them, the people have no real protection from those who wish to rule them. If a judge is free to contradict the clear meaning of statutes and the Constitution, we have no protection at all.

John

zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 26, 2016 - 07:34am PT
The superior court judge was convinced that men got the shaft in divorce proceedings, and he was doing all who could to make sure that didn't happen in his court, the statutes be damned.

Amen brother.

I observed Judge A. in San Diego. He completely ignored the law and court decisions (happened to be the Grinius ruling). Even challeged that if attys didn't like it they could take an appeal.

blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Feb 26, 2016 - 07:35am PT
Craig, out of curiosity, I tried to find out a bit more about Scalia's father's alleged fascism. (Not that it's directly relevant to Scalia, but as I said, I agree it's interesting background.)
As far as I can, the allegations are a hoax, and may have derived from general anti-Italian sentiment of the era.
http://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/jack-coleman/2013/03/04/liberal-radio-host-mike-papantonio-smears-scalia-elder-fascist-leader

As to this post:

I'm not a lawyer, I'm not that interested in the details of the law...I'm too busy with lots of other priorities to try and learn about the law in any sort of detail.

To me the law is a black box and what I'm interested in is the outcomes that that black box produces. I think that is probably how all but a tiny percentage of Americans view the law.

Honestly, I could give a flying f*#k about the elegance of his legal reasoning or the pithiness of his written opinions. What I see is a guy who appeared to find legal justifications for his political preferences.

The poster may know more about law, at least constitutional law, than he thinks. There is not a lot of intellectual content to it, and the "justices" do just make the sh#t up. It's a little more complicated than that, but only a little. (There are technical doctrines of con law that a non-lawyer or even a lawyer who doesn't specialize in con law would know nothing about, but they don't drive the outcome of most socially interesting cases.)
The conservatives have a significant edge over the libs in that they are generally inclined to make up less sh#t (that is what is meant by "judicial restraint"), but they do it too when they really want to put the fix in on a particular case (see Bush v. Gore).

JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Feb 26, 2016 - 10:09am PT
The conservatives have a significant edge over the libs in that they are generally inclined to make up less sh#t (that is what is meant by "judicial restraint"), but they do it too when they really want to put the fix in on a particular case (see Bush v. Gore).

The key ruling in Bush v. Gore, namely that the Democrats controlling the counting of votes couldn't change the rules after the election, was a 7-2 decision, so it was more than just a conservative decision.

With that quibble, I agree with the premise above, but for a slightly different reason. I always wanted to be on the side that said that a writing means what it says. Whenever a lawyer has to argue that a key writing means something different from what its words normally mean, that lawyer has a losing argument. The Scalia approach started with the wording of the provision the court was required to construe. If he saw a plain meaning of the provision, that ended his inquiry. Only if the provision was logically susceptible to ambiguity did he see any need to interpret or construe it.

A good example of that reasoning is Dewsnup v. Timm, a bankruptcy case from the early 1990's. Under Section 506(a) of the Bankruptcy Code, the court must examine the value of a secured creditor's collateral. If the collateral value exceeds the debt, the Code says that in bankruptcy, we treat that creditor as fully secured, allowing that creditor to accrue post-bankruptcy interest, fees and charges in addition to what was owed when the debtor's case was filed. If the value of the collateral does not exceedthe amount of the debt, the creditor cannot accrue any interest, fees or charges after the filing of the petition, and make those post-petition accruals part of its claim.

The issue in Deswnup came down to the meaning of another subsection of the Code, Section 506(d). That subsection reads:

(d) To the extent that a lien secures a claim against the debtor that is not an allowed secured claim, such lien is void, unless—
(1) such claim was disallowed only under section 502(b)(5) or 502(e) of this title; or
(2) such claim is not an allowed secured claim due only to the failure of any entity to file a proof of such claim under section 501 of this title.

The creditor's collateral value was zero. The debtor therefore argued that he wiped out the creditor's lien in his Chapter 7 bankrtupcy. The majority of the SCOTUS disagreed, reasoning [sic] that it had always been the law before the enactment of the current bankruptcy code that liens survived bankrtupcy. There was nothing in the language of the current law saying that it intended to change prior law. Accepting the debtor's argument meant that the current law changed prior law.

Scalia dissented, arguing that the plain language of Section 506(d) said the lien is void if it is not an allowed secured claim, and Section 506(a) said that the lien secured an "allowed secured claim" only to the extent there was collateral value. Thus, giving the language its plain meaning, it didn't matter what prior law said. The language of the current law was clear, and the (consumer) debtor should have been able to get rid of the (bank) creditor's lien in his bankruptcy.

One normally would not expect a conservative judge to say that a debtor could evade his contractual responsibilities, particularly when the Bank gave an argument that its contract rights should prevail. Scalia did not first decide who should win. Instead, he analyzed who the statute said should win, and that determined his answer. That showed a judicial humility lacking in the less conservative side, because the latter tends to bend, if not break, the meaning of the statute's or Constitution's language to achieve the result they want. Put another way, they don't let the clear language of a statute stop them from doing what they want.

To me, the court's fidelity to the provision's language determines whether a court is or is not "activist." An activist court effectively re-writes the provision to produce its desired outcome. A non-activist court interprets the provision as written, and uses that interpretation to determine the result.

John
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Feb 26, 2016 - 11:02am PT
The conservatives have a significant edge over the libs in that they are generally inclined to make up less sh#t (that is what is meant by "judicial restraint"), but they do it too when they really want to put the fix in on a particular case (see Bush v. Gore).
Absolute bullsh#t. Judicial restraint is a fiction of the right and apparently one that you have bought into. If you want an example of judicial activism by the current court, and Scalia, please review Heller v. District of Columbia. Moreover, the concept of judicial restraint (and stare decisis for that matter) presumes an infallibility on behalf of the earlier court crafting the decision.

On the first day of law school, we reviewed a case about whether a spouse had a right to bring a claim against her spouse for beating her. The majority opinion was that, she should not since, in the majority's opinion, it would have a detrimental effect on the marital relation. No effing joke. However, as the dissent corrently pointed out, if one spouse is beating the other, then clearly the marital relation already has significant problems and may not be worth preserving.

I thought that the post you highlighted in your response was pretty dead on. I believe that many of Scalia's opinions are so disingenuous that it is apparent even to someone not in the legal profession that he is just looking for a preordained conclusion even where the facts do not support it. Scalia was an emabarrassment to the concept of impartiality by the Court.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Feb 26, 2016 - 01:22pm PT
Now Fat Dad I was going to compliment JE on posting a very clear example of judicial restraint and how, properly exercised, it may lead to decisions that are against what we would expect to be the proclivities of the judge. (All hope isn't lost--we just need to appeal to the legislature to enact new laws to ensure the interests of lenders are adequately protected--in the case he discussed, perhaps some carefully targeted donations to key members of the legislature would help them focus their attention on the problem?)

To reiterate JE's point, Justice Scalia would have interpreted a statute as favoring a deadbeat borrower over the financial institution that the deadbeat bilked because that is what the "plain meaning" of the statute required.

I had some concerns, however, that JE may have been "casting pearls before swine," so to speak. I'm sorry to say your post seems to confirm my fears.
But I'm not giving up all hope--go back and spend a few minutes reading JE's post.

Occasionally those who have been brainwashed by standard libtard orthodoxy will have a "moment of clarity," exercise their critical thinking skills, and then it all starts making sense--before you know it, we've got another good conservative on the team!
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Feb 26, 2016 - 02:08pm PT
I wasn't referring to John's post. His are always intelligent and well thought out. I don't always agree with him, but I understand his position and will sometimes respectfully disagree.

You, on the other hand, appear to believe that merely calling someone a "libtard" is persuasive argument. Rather, it appears to be the extent of your abilities to debate with someone who has a different perspective than your own. From your posts, you are incapable of distinguishing, let alone rebutting, an opinion other than your own. Pity your clients who pay an hourly rate for such fine work.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 26, 2016 - 02:39pm PT
No Liberals voted to allow Bush to take the Presidency
So John is wrong

Scalia Rewrites History, Claims 5-4 Bush v. Gore Decision ‘Wasn’t Even Close’

BY IAN MILLHISER MAR 9, 2012 1:30 PM



During a speech at Wesleyan University last night, Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia offered a strange revision of the time he joined with four of his conservative colleagues to make George W. Bush president:
At the end of the speech, Scalia took questions from the audience. One person asked about the Bush-Gore case, where the Supreme Court had to determine the winner of the election.

“Get over it,” Scalia said of the controversy surrounding it, to laughter from the audience.“

Scalia reminded the audience it was Gore who took the election to court, and the election was going to be decided in a court anyway—either the Florida Supreme Court or the U.S. Supreme Court.
It was a long time ago, people forget…It was a 7-2 decision. It wasn’t even close,” he said.

Bush v. Gore was not a 7-2 decision — and indeed, Scalia could tell this is true by counting all four of the dissenting opinions in that case. Although it is true that the four dissenters divided on how the Florida recount should proceed — two believed there should be a statewide recount of all Florida voters while two others believed a narrower recount would be acceptable — not one of the Court’s four moderates agreed with Scalia that the winner of the 2000 presidential election should effectively be chosen by five most conservative members of the Supreme Court of the United States.



It was a purely partisan vote
Scalia was Cheney's hunting buddy
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Feb 26, 2016 - 03:15pm PT
I don't always agree with him, but I understand his position and will sometimes respectfully disagree.

Perhaps you understand his position but your post doesn't reflect any such understanding. Your post was directly contrary to JE's and failed to even hint at an awareness of the points that he made. It's not a question of your being right or wrong--you're not even in the game.
I'm losing hope in expecting much in the way of civil discourse from you, but you may want to go back and look at your posts directed to me on this thread before getting too butt hurt that I called you a "libtard" (the horror!).

Craig--you may well be right about Bush v. Gore--we'll have to see if JE is interested in elaborating, I don't have time or interest in looking at the various opinions.
An interesting postscript to Bush v. Gore is the various attempts to determine what would have happened if there would have been further recounts--it's hard to get a straight answer, but what I've read suggests that Bush would have won under the most likely recount scenarios, although there are some under which Gore would have.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 26, 2016 - 04:29pm PT
What's galling in GvB isn't the outcome, it's that after endless spewing by the right about 'states rights' and 'activist justices', the five conservatives on the court deigned, in one of the most activist moves the court has seen, not to leave the matter to the Florida supreme court.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Feb 26, 2016 - 05:50pm PT
^ ^
Healyje remember the old legal adage that "hard cases make bad law"--the justices are human after all, and all of them were up against it on that one.
Best to see that case as an outlier and not especially useful in evaluating any of the justices' overall jurisprudence.
I suppose it was akin to what lawyers call "hometowning"--probably hard to deny there was a bit of partisanship on that one.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 26, 2016 - 06:09pm PT
...as an outlier...

Yes, an incredibly hypocritical and activist outlier.
Jorroh

climber
Feb 26, 2016 - 07:10pm PT
"The key ruling in Bush v. Gore, namely that the Democrats controlling the counting of votes couldn't change the rules after the election, was a 7-2 decision, so it was more than just a conservative decision"

total BS ... did all of the 7 agree for the same reason?

oops..I see that that was already pointed out. Nevertheless, classically disingenuous as usual from JE.
zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 26, 2016 - 08:39pm PT
Hypocrit judgments, after the fact

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Jorroh

climber
Feb 26, 2016 - 09:40pm PT
"Ahgast".... sounds painful John.

I too abhor the theoretical tyranny that us pontificating rich white guys have to endure,
but you'll forgive me if I prefer to focus on actual tyranny...the kind that actually hurts actual people.

you know?...the kind where a black guy smoking a cigarette on his doorstep at night ends up walking out of jail a couple of months later with all his money gone... why?....no reason... except that he was randomly dragged into a justice system that was set up to screw him with no practical recourse on his part.

Or how about an unelected (and in all probability outright racist) supreme court justice deciding that it was ok for a state with a long history of racism to institute a voter id law to combat non-existent....and I do mean absolutely f*#king non-existent.... voter fraud. Then that same state to promptly remove the offices where voters could get said ID's, primarily from black districts of course....surprise, surprise.

Actual people actually getting hurt by the actual legal system.








Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Feb 26, 2016 - 10:30pm PT
Blahblah,
My posts are directed to you because you are a chickenshit incapable of defending the crap you spew under the disguise of legal argument. You have not provided any facts or support for any position you have offered in this thread. Rather than attempt to do that, you have merely name called and dodged the issue, which is more or less an admission that you nothing you can offer. Still, that's fine. You can call me whatever you want. I'm a litigator; I don't care. I don't have to defend the fact that I am a liberal. We see reality, not pretend that the facts are something else as a basis of supporting our belief. Put up or shut up.
zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 28, 2016 - 02:44pm PT
Amen Brother. I'm gonna hurry on home for the final rounds.

Gotta love that name "Boom Boom", but orale, Bobby's a home boy de Pacoima.

LIKEWISE I'M SURE.

FD by TKO.

Bobby Chacon Jr., Son of Boxer, Shot to Death : Street crime: Youth, 17, is gunned down in the parking lot of a department store in Panorama City. Police say the killing is gang-related.


ScALIA SAID i COULD USE THE IMAGE. IT'S PROTECTED SPEECH.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 16, 2016 - 06:02am PT
The president will announce his nominee for the court in two hours.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Mar 16, 2016 - 06:23am PT
And the republican obsrtuctionism that is largely responsible for the current deplorable state they find their party in will begin anew.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 16, 2016 - 06:25am PT
If they want to continue digging their political grave, I hope the democrats hand them a nice, big, shiny shovel.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Mar 16, 2016 - 06:26am PT
They're on the wrong side of public opinion on this. Helps Hillary.
couchmaster

climber
Mar 16, 2016 - 08:13am PT

Fat Dad said, quote:
"Blahblah,
My posts are directed to you because you are a chickenshit incapable of defending the crap you spew under the disguise of legal argument. You have not provided any facts or support for any position you have offered in this thread. Rather than attempt to do that, you have merely name called and dodged the issue, which is more or less an admission that you nothing you can offer. Still, that's fine. You can call me whatever you want. I'm a litigator; I don't care. I don't have to defend the fact that I am a liberal. We see reality, not pretend that the facts are something else as a basis of supporting our belief. Put up or shut up.'
and -
" kind of threw up in my mouth reading blahblah's missive to Scalia's memory. What a load of hogwash my friend. I suspect someone was a member of the Federalist Society. Nothing else would explain such a complete divorce from reality when reviewing the man's records. "


LOL, want to try again with some facts and less name calling?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 16, 2016 - 09:07am PT
Scalia may have been with a women (provided to him by his gracious host that had a case in front of the Supreme Court) the night he died.
According to some News item I heard.

They all know this, so they want to keep it hush hush.

No Autopsy will be necessary, it was for sure Heart Failure.
Norton

Social climber
Mar 16, 2016 - 09:10am PT
According to some News item I heard.

link?

thanks Craig
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Mar 16, 2016 - 09:33am PT
Great Obama went the way I hoped picking a moderate. Not only because I feel a moderate is more likely to make decisions based on the law instead of their own ideology, but because if the Reps continue to block a vote they will be clearly identified as obstructionist to independents and lots of moderate republicans and they will lose big in November and hopefully start acting more reasonable next year.
WBraun

climber
Mar 16, 2016 - 09:37am PT
Everybody knows he was taken out.

except the public ....
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Mar 16, 2016 - 09:41am PT
and hopefully start acting more reasonable next year.

oh please...

what universe do you live in? ;) Act reasonable when President Clinton takes the office for eight more years? Hopefully she learns the lesson from Obama - don't expect to work with them cuz it ain't gonna happen.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Mar 16, 2016 - 09:59am PT
Great Obama went the way I hoped picking a moderate. Not only because I feel a moderate is more likely to make decisions based on the law instead of their own ideology . . .

A moderate judge makes decisions based on their ideology in just the same way that a non-moderate judge does--the decisions are just based on moderate ideology.
Here's a recent short essay from Judge Posner (probably the most influential living American judge) that may give some insight to how judges decide socially significant cases.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-supreme-court-is-a-political-court-republicans-actions-are-proof/2016/03/09/4c851860-e142-11e5-8d98-4b3d9215ade1_story.html
As Posner explains, Supreme Court justices don't really "interpret" the Constitution, they create its meaning. Of course that creation will depend on the political and general worldview of each justice.

I like Posner's statement that law is "analytically weak, in the sense that there are no settled principles for resolving the most difficult and consequential legal controversies." I think a lot of people have a hard time accepting that the SCOTUS just makes up most of what it does (that is socially significant)--there's no reason anyone should take my word for it, but you may want to at least consider Posner's views.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Mar 16, 2016 - 10:12am PT
That mealy mouthed, multiple chinned McConnell won't even begin to consider the merits of the nominee.
Don't the morons that constitute the Republican Establishment realize that this type of blatant obsrtuctionism is a major cause for their coming demise. They have made virtually no attempt to govern from Obama's inaugaration to the present.
My how much fun it has been to see them coming apart at the seams.....roll on Trump, roll on.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 16, 2016 - 10:20am PT
Why do recent Democratic Presidents pick moderates and Republican ones extremists?

The best satire makes one uncertain whether it was offered in jest or in truth. This must be satire, since the last moderate a Democrat appointed to the court was probably Byron White by Kennedy.

John
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Mar 16, 2016 - 10:29am PT
John, I was saved for three months from political news by being in Patagonia. I must say that I'm enjoying the show much more than I would have imagined. Your party brought this on themselves.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 16, 2016 - 10:57am PT
I'm sure you are, Jim, just as much as I despair over it. The difference between our parties is that a majority of your party's voters haven't disowned pargmatism. A majority of mine have.

John
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Mar 16, 2016 - 11:13am PT
Yeah Nature I'm not holding my breath. Likely the republicans will double down on stupid and be more obstructionist. It will take a few big losses for them to be more reasonable. But one can hope.

Blahblah. I pretty much agree. Scalia saying he just followed the wording of the law was BS. If that was true he would have had to vote with the liberals at some times. However I do think you are more likely to see moderates being swing votes. I was impressed with Roberts voting for obamacare. Wether it was following the law, thinking it was justice, or just for the appearance of neutrality of the court.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Mar 16, 2016 - 11:33am PT
LOL, want to try again with some facts and less name calling?
Did that already several times, with no substantive response. He appears incapable of it, or just defers to what John said, passing if off as his own. That was my rant just writing the guy off.

To more substantive matters, I really like the nomination of Judge Merrick. Impecable credentials and tremendous personal history. The ONLY way the Republican Congress could not (credibly) approve him is by not voting.
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Mar 16, 2016 - 11:43am PT
Do the democrats want him to be confirmed, or want to win political advantage? Somewhere in between? The two outcomes (obstructionism vs confirmation) seem so politically different.

Is the choice of such a moderate nominee, who has gained approval from republicans in the past, a product of republican obstructionism? Is this nomination a "win" for republican tactics? If he wins confirmation, what's the political upside/downside for the two parties?
Norton

Social climber
Mar 16, 2016 - 11:51am PT
If he wins confirmation, what's the political upside/downside for the two parties?

I don't see any effect on the Democrats if he is confirmed, just business as usual

but the Republicans have majority control of the Senate and if they confirm then
they will be seen as both backtracking on their vow to not even allow a vote,
and also to having given in to that hated black Muslim as President, their base would go nuts
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Mar 16, 2016 - 11:54am PT
But does that work to their disadvantage? Where are those voters going to go? Aren't the Trump voters running the show already anyway? If the republican ideal is to wait and let the next president pick the nominee, the best they can hope for and work for is to have Trump pick the nominee.
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Mar 16, 2016 - 12:06pm PT
Trump will pick One of his children or a stooge he is in control of. Trump will take control of the country .
He will embroil the USA in a war or three and claim that he has to suspend the next election cycle. and the Supreme court will be rigged and so support the take over....
a nightmare that seems to be a very real possibility today...
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Mar 16, 2016 - 01:35pm PT
Right, that's what I feel like I'm miscomputing. If the best they can gain from this obstructionism is a Trump nominee, is that worth the political cost of obstructing this moderate nominee? Given that they've already gained control of the Senate because of? in spite of? their obstructionist tactics, maybe our sense of the political cost of that previous and this current obstructionism is out of whack with the reality of our Trump-loving nation (and what that says about us).
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Mar 16, 2016 - 01:56pm PT
This is a miscalculation by the Reps like the govt. shutdown / budget crisis.

They say this changes the makeup of the supreme court and the American people should have a say.

Yes with this pick the court changes to a centrist / swing court. IMO that's what we should have. A court most likely to eschew ideology for pragmatism. The convertavites should be happy it's not becoming a liberal majority court, many moderates and independents are happy it's going to a divided court, and progressives aren't too happy that it won't be a liberal court. Jeez, they think all Americans want it to stay a conservative court. Partisans...

And as has been said, the American people did have their say when they elected Obama twice.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 16, 2016 - 02:01pm PT
Meh, I dont think there is anything magical about being a split the difference moderate.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Mar 16, 2016 - 02:04pm PT
I just returned from a 6 mile drive to town to our Post Office & I got my Fox News fix both ways. Fox Headline News, Regular Fox News, & Fox Financial News pundits are all whinning about Obama's "provocative-move" in daring to put forward a moderate for the Supreme Court.

They were doing their best tries at pretending to be indignant about the whole thing. What a bunch of cry-babies.
Norton

Social climber
Mar 16, 2016 - 02:06pm PT
They say this changes the makeup of the supreme court and the American people should have a say.

the American people have already had their say

twice, by overwhelming margins, they elected President Obama

he was elected to serve the full four years and still has 10 months to go

sigh, constitutional directives and clear logic don't mean a damn thing to Mtich McConnell and the rest of his Senate Republicans

this is pretty sickening......
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Mar 16, 2016 - 02:11pm PT
a split the difference moderate

I really know nothing about him. But hopefully he's a moderate of the radical centrist variety. Not being a moderate because he's a fence sitter, but individual decisions come down in the middle, right, or left depending on the issue and deciding based on the text of the law, justice, and pragmaticism.
WBraun

climber
Mar 16, 2016 - 02:13pm PT
Fritz -- "What a bunch of cry-babies."

Yep just like you politards here.

Cry all day long every day about what some loon said on TV, radio and/or internet .....
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Mar 16, 2016 - 02:16pm PT
On a partisan level I completely agree. But haven't they made progress in their direction (a crappy direction to go, I agree) with their obstructionism? They won control of the Senate. They got Obama to nominate a moderate for the Supreme Court. It's similarly insane that Trump is the Republican nominee for president. But is it? That we don't like reality doesn't mean that it's not true.

Thanks for your ray of optimistic humanistic sunshine :-)
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 16, 2016 - 02:20pm PT
Once again, Obama is doing what I recommended, so maybe have I have more clout with this administration than I thought!

I hope he gets a hearing and an up-or-down vote. We shouldn't pull a Reid on this, because I think he's a far more solid nominee to the court than we're likely to get after November, but then, I and the Tea Partiers and Trumpers don't share the same view, and I'm too old for A Separate Reality.

;>)

John
Norton

Social climber
Mar 16, 2016 - 02:29pm PT
McConnell is insistent that he will not allow this nominee to be considered, period
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Mar 16, 2016 - 02:31pm PT
I have to agree with Norton that the whole thing is a disgusting mess. This from Mitch McConnell in the N.Y. Times:
“Rather than put Judge Garland through more unnecessary political routines orchestrated by the White House, the leader decided it would be more considerate of the nominee’s time to speak with him today by phone,” Mr. McConnell’s spokesman, Don Stewart, said in a statement.

Exactly what I was thinking. The president performing his duties under the Constitution is an "unnecessary political routine[s] orchestrated by the White House".
zBrown

Ice climber
Mar 16, 2016 - 04:36pm PT
Why yes, I can squeal like a pig. Why do you ask?





http://img.washingtonpost.com/rf/image_1484w/2010-2019/Wires/Online/2016-03-14/AP/Images/SupremeCourtRepublicans-06ac1.jpg?uuid=xs0_3uomEeWpzmgQVcegXw
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Mar 16, 2016 - 05:02pm PT
I love watching them paint themselves in to a corner and continue to apply coats.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 16, 2016 - 05:14pm PT
"Defiant Mitch McConnell Holds Merrick Garland’s Severed Head Aloft In Front Of Capitol Building "


http://www.theonion.com/article/defiant-mitch-mcconnell-holds-merrick-garlands-sev-52575
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Mar 16, 2016 - 05:16pm PT
Nina Tottenberg says that Republicans like Obama's appointment but won't confirm him until after the election during the lame duck session for political reasons.
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Mar 16, 2016 - 05:33pm PT
Mitch McConnell, on display at Madam Tussaud's Wax Museum





The right-wingers idea of cooperation goes about like this:

Demand an outrageous concession (e.g. the entire box of cookies) right up front. Then, "compromise" by allowing the other people to claw back a tiny portion (e.g. one cookie) and then claim to have "met in the middle".


It's not surprising they are using the same tactic with the Supreme Court seat. It's in their diseased DNA.


When deranged people hear voices from "God" telling them that they are exceptional, and correct in their socipathic behavior, it's hard to get them to voluntarily stop.

Thus the need in society for nets, cages, thorazine and electro-shock machinery.

Ironically, it was Ronald Reagan, as Governor, who eviscerated the very mental health care that the neo-Cons and right-wing religious zealots so desperately need.

Either that, or Reagan intentionally loosed his buddies on society to wreak havoc.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 16, 2016 - 06:39pm PT
Obama is Not a Lame Duck President until the November elections are over

So the Senate Republicans are lying, as usual

There is only one solution
Vote out these Anti-Constitutional Obstructionist Senate Republicans

They have nothing good to offer
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Mar 16, 2016 - 06:45pm PT
Sixty-three percent of Americans say that the Senate should have hearings on the nominee.
I've heard that if the repubs don't hold hearings, they might lose at least four senate seats in November.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Mar 16, 2016 - 06:54pm PT
This nomination is DOA for now. They have the votes. The only way it advances is if Hillary wins in Nov. and the Republicans figure that she'll nominate someone more liberal after she's sworn in next Jan.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Mar 16, 2016 - 07:31pm PT
It makes sense that Obama announces he will continue to put forward Garland for the Supreme Court until a new president is elected, and he becomes a lame duck.

That takes care of the Republican Senators that think they can approve Garland as a last-gasp choice, if Hillary Clinton becomes president.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 16, 2016 - 07:33pm PT
"Sixty-three percent of Americans say that the Senate should have hearings on the nominee."

Since when has public opinion ever meant a goddam thing to the RepubliCorporatocracy®?
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Mar 16, 2016 - 07:50pm PT
The only way the sh#t can really hit the fan is the Repubs both lose the presidency and control of the Senate (which admittedly could happen).
If Hillary wins but the Repubs retain the Senate, all's not lost, they just need to keep rejecting whatever lefty Hillary nominates.
It probably wouldn't be tenable for the Senate to say it wouldn't even consider whomever Hillary nominates (as tempting a proposition as that would be).
But there's no reason for the Senate to accept anyone who doesn't meet its standards.
Garland may well be another reflexive statist lefty in the Kagan-Sotomayor mold--I don't see the threat that Hillary may nominate someone even worse as much of an inducement to the Senate.



dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 17, 2016 - 09:22am PT
Increasingly, I think republican senators will cave.

This morning, Senator Hatch stated that maybe-perhaps-gosh, you never know!, the senate might consider Garland's nomination after the election, which is inconsistent with their stated position that the next president should make the appointment.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Mar 17, 2016 - 09:56am PT
Increasingly, I think republican senators will cave.

If by "caving" you mean out-maneuvering Obama, I tend to agree.
I think the plan all along was to use the rhetoric of not considering any nominee to goad Obama into picking a more-or-less moderate in order to try to shame the Repubs, with Obama not thinking the Repubs would actually accept whoever he nominates anyway, so it doesn't matter that he picked someone far less liberal than he really wanted.
But now the Repubs essentially have a cost-free option of accepting Garland if they so choose--there's really no way Obama can un-nominate him.

I almost feel sorry for Obama how bad he's got screwed on this one . . . almost.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 17, 2016 - 09:59am PT
Interesting take, blah.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Mar 17, 2016 - 10:24am PT
there's really no way Obama can un-nominate him.

Let's see....


In the history of nominations names were withdrawn by presidents Washington, John Adams, Tyler, Grant, Hoover, Johnson (2), Nixon (2), Reagan (2), and GWB.

It appears Obama is not restricted.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Mar 17, 2016 - 11:03am PT
so it doesn't matter that he picked someone far less liberal than he really wanted.
Unless you're clairvoyant, you can't really say how liberal a nominee he "really wanted". Generally, Democratic nominees are more centrist than those nominated by their Republican counterparts.

Rather, it is the constant refrain from the right that Obama wanted someone really liberal, but that is an argument applied to many areas: 'Obama is going to take your guns', 'Obama is going to use the federal govt. to usurp state's rights', etc. Many Republican fears are not supported by any demonstrable facts.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 17, 2016 - 11:05am PT
Unless Judge Garland has some serious skeletons in his closet I strongly doubt he would withdraw the nomination. That would reflect very poorly on the President.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Mar 17, 2016 - 11:20am PT
If a democrat wins the presidency and the Senate turns, the president may defer the choice to the next president, and use the tea party rhetoric about lame duck nominations to justify it.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Mar 17, 2016 - 11:31am PT
Many Republican fears are not supported by any demonstrable facts.

Understatement of the year.

Obama has demonstrated many moderate/centrist tendencies over the course of the last 8 years. Of course the Reps/Cons need to see it all as extreme left. So nominating Garland may be a choice he'd be happy with no matter the circumstance. He's nominated two one the liberal side. He could be picking someone to keep the court more or less balanced and he thinks that's good for the country and his legacy. Who cares if many on the right are bigots and only want the country to work for them, Obama and others may have empathy and want to try to make things work as well as possible for everyone. You know, like the founding fathers intended.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 17, 2016 - 11:35am PT
Generally, Democratic nominees are more centrist than those nominated by their Republican counterparts.

I think I need to understand your definition of "centrist" before I can respond to that one, Steve. To my mind, the last true centrist nominated by a Democrat was Byron White, and the last by a Republican was Anthony Kennedy. Perhaps Breyer and Roberts could be called "centrist" as well, but Ginsburg, Kagan and Sotomayor have rendered no decision that didn't go predictably left (or else resulted in their predictable recusal), and Alito and Thomas have been predictably right.

John
Norton

Social climber
Mar 17, 2016 - 11:43am PT
John

does the Senate Republicans strategy of going along for perhaps up to a year until the new President nominates a justice actually work against them in the mean time?

with the court now at 8 that would mean that any overturning lower courts would require 5-3 majority and only 4-4 to not overturn?

my understanding is that there are a few important lower court appeals in front of the
SCOTUS that is in the political right's interests, for example the recent
abortion access requiring hospital admitting credentials was it not stymied?
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Mar 17, 2016 - 11:45am PT
It was not necessary to add more liberals to the court, already have Kagen and Sotomayor. With them it is a 4-4 split, Garland is left of center so I think we will see a lot of the 5-4 decisions going in the progressive direction. Obama was not tricked by the GOP, in fact Garland was on the short list for prior nominations.

Did anyone double check to make sure Tony was really dead?

Norton - the 4-4 split is a double edged sword. On a 4-4 decision the lower court decision stands. so it depends on what the lower court did.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Mar 17, 2016 - 11:50am PT
"Sixty-three percent of Americans say that the Senate should have hearings on the nominee."

The Republicans are such asswipes--Their statement, via Ryan said " We should let the American people decide the direction of the court."

What a liar.

The American people electeded Obama--that was their voice.
The American people now say they don't want the Senate to hold up the nomination process:

The survey, released Tuesday night by the Wall Street Journal, found 55 percent of all registered voters disagreed with Senate Republicans' refusal to set Judiciary Committee hearings to vet a potential nominee for the high court, effectively blocking the first step of the confirmation process.

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-03-09/poll-majority-oppose-gops-plan-to-block-obamas-supreme-court-nominee

The Republicans are such asswipes.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Mar 17, 2016 - 11:50am PT
Norton - the 4-4 split is a double edged sword. On a 4-4 decision the lower court decision stands. so it depends on what the lower court did.

The lower court ruling only stands in whatever circuit it is being appealed from and can be revisited by a later Supreme Court if it chooses.

It does not set precedent.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 17, 2016 - 11:52am PT
Norton,

I agree that the status quo on the SCOTUS will result in many 4-4 decisions. These have the effect of affirming the decision in the court below (technically, the court does not reverse the decision. That is a bit more like denying certiorari (i.e. deciding not to hear the case.) The conventional legal wisdom is that denying cert. just means the court didn't make a decision; it does not really validate the opinion from which the appellant sought review.)

I was skimming the docket on the court's website this morning, but I haven't looked carefully enough to see whether the net effect of the current, likely, deadlock favors any particular ideology.

John
Norton

Social climber
Mar 17, 2016 - 11:53am PT
Garland is left of center, how so?

just last week he was praised as strictly neutral by prominent GOP Senator
who commented that he liked Garland not siding with criminal defendants,
normally seen as a leftist stance by the right
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Mar 17, 2016 - 11:58am PT
Garland is not saddled with an anti-government bias. He is pragmatic which disqualifies him from being right wing and he was appointed to the Court of Appeals by Clinton.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 17, 2016 - 12:07pm PT
Norton, my Official Conservative Source (i.e. the Daily Signal) says that he has always deferred to the judgment of regulators. He has never voted to invalidate a challenged regulation. They also gripe that he voted to rehear en banc the D. C. Circuit's decision validating an individual's right to keep and bear arms under the Second Amendment. They do say that he tends to be more conservative on criminal law matters.


The first assertion is probably the most important, because this administration has greatly expanded the scope of executive branch regulatory agencies, at times in direct contradiction to Congressional language. From the candidates' campaign statements a Trump, Sanders or H. Clinton administration would probably continue that trend.

From a libertarian standpoint, the positions he has taken consistently avoid placing limits on government power. Thus, even his "conservative" law-and-order stance worries libertarians.

On the surface, he seems less left-of-center than previous nominees of Clinton or Obama, but no one appointed by either of those two presidents ever seems to side with individual rights seeking government limitations, and I can't believe Obama would nominate anyone he thought would vote to limit expansions of regulatory or other government arrogations of power.

Then again, you never know for sure what someone will do when they reach the SCOTUS, and are no longer subject to controlling precedent. Certainly Frankfurter, Stevens and Souter, among others, held a philosophy on the SCOTUS different from what their critics feared at confirmation.

John
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Mar 17, 2016 - 12:18pm PT
All of his purported crimes against right wing ideology can be paraded at a hearing. Except our banana Republic senate won't have a hearing. Maybe they are too busy trying to shut down the government over funding women's health providers?

I'm at a loss at how intelligent people still support the Republican party.
Norton

Social climber
Mar 17, 2016 - 12:25pm PT
thanks for your comments, John

you were doing greatly impartial until you had to throw in your opinion that regulatory
actions are "arrogant", perhaps for a Libertarian regulations they don't personally agree with in contrast to their preferred free market preference

but I guess I never took you for having a bias toward Libertarianism, always thought you were fairly neutral on government regulations in that they should not be opposed out of general principle but instead closely examined on their individual merit

GM opposed seat belt regulations for example, they have been quiet on that for decades, Nixon's EPA was the first real attempt to regulate air pollution yet it always gets mentioned in GOP debates as one of those burdensome government regulatory agencies that should be eliminated along with the Dept of Education, etc

I know the California specific regulations you disagree with in your private comments with me, did not know your attitude was so strong to use the word arrogant......
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 17, 2016 - 01:02pm PT
Norton, I specifically had the FCC's purported authority to regulate the internet service providers as public utilities in mind when I used the term "arrogation of power," but I apply it to any expansion of government power, by any means, that contradicts constitutional (in the case of legislation) or legislative (in the case of regulatory) limits.

The cases you cite don't fall under those categories. Congress created the EPA, and Nixon signed the legislation doing so. No one accused his administration of acting outside the scope of the enabling legislation. Congress enacted the NHSA and CPSC so, again, seat belt regulation was within the purview of the statute.

In addition to the FCC's decision that it could regulate ISP's, the Rivers of the United States, the EPA power plant regulations, and other regulations and statutes currently being litigated test whether our allegedly limited government has any real limits. Garland's tendency to be extremely deferential to regulatory determinations concern many conservatives and libertarians for that reason.

John
Norton

Social climber
Mar 17, 2016 - 01:31pm PT
John, thanks for your regulatory comments.

A new question for you.

Assuming the highly likely hood of a Clinton Presidency and also assuming a new Democratic majority in the Senate, actually fairly likely with Trump down ballot voting,
are not the Senate Republicans running a real risk by not accepting Garland now
rather than having virtually no say in a Clinton appointee with Dem Senate?

I am not convinced McConnell is thinking ahead with all cylinders....
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Mar 17, 2016 - 01:38pm PT
John, thanks for your regulatory comments.

A new question for you.

Assuming the highly likely hood of a Clinton Presidency and also assuming a new Democratic majority in the Senate, actually fairly likely with Trump down ballot voting,
are not the Senate Republicans running a real risk by not accepting Garland now
rather than having virtually no say in a Clinton appointee with Dem Senate?

I am not convinced McConnell is thinking ahead with all cylinders....

Your question presumes that Republicans are capable of dropping their firm obstructionist strategy and making that kind of nuanced trade-off analysis. I've seen nothing in the last 7 years that would indicate that capability.

Curt
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Mar 17, 2016 - 01:43pm PT
Norton writes:

"...are not the Senate Republicans running a real risk by not accepting Garland now
rather than having virtually no say in a Clinton appointee with Dem Senate?"



Congress will still be in session for almost two months after the election before Clinton's sworn in. They can always vote on Garland then. ( unless, of course, Obama pulls his nomination in a fit of childishness )
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Mar 17, 2016 - 01:49pm PT
Your question presumes that Republicans are capable of dropping their firm obstructionist strategy and making that kind of nuanced trade-off analysis. I've seen nothing in the last 7 years that would indicate that capability.

I am not so sure about that, they sure passed a budget quickly (they ignored Cruz and his TeaBag buddies) last time around.

It would not be childish for Obama to pull his nominee once Hillary gets elected.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Mar 17, 2016 - 01:50pm PT
Norton you don't seem to get it--
The Repubs essentially have a free option on Garland now--they may or may not exercise that option, that's their call.

It's out of Obama's hands now--he tried a gambit, but it's failed spectacularly--there's nothing left to be done but to see if the Repubs take Garland, as they choose.

Lorzenzo's little history digressions are interesting as always, but who thinks Obama will have the guts to un-nominate Garland even if Hillary wins and the Dems take the Senate? And even if he does, so what--Garland will be a reliable lefty vote on every substantial issue, Hillary can't really appoint anyone who does anything worse!
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Mar 17, 2016 - 02:02pm PT
The only real losers are tax paying citizens who only want a functional government.

JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 17, 2016 - 02:04pm PT
Norton, I see it your way, but (as the intervening comments show), others don't. Presidents can always withdraw nominations, although I don't recall a President doing so for a SCOTUS nominee without the nominee's consent.

And DMT, I don't envy McConnell's position. He has had to navigate around the Tea Party, Harry Reid, Barak Obama, the mainstream media, the conservative media, etc. etc. Whoever holds Republican leadership roles for either house of Congress must feel like he or she is leading an army of generals (this describes governance in my church quite well, by the way) or tryhing to herd cats. Maybe an even better analogy would be what each of us considered the ideal government when I was an undergrad at Berkeley: anarchy with me in charge.

John
monolith

climber
state of being
Mar 17, 2016 - 02:12pm PT
Not a free option, blahbla. If they don't allow a vote or vote down this moderate candidate, they will look like the obstructionists they are and may pay at the elections.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 17, 2016 - 02:14pm PT
What DMT said. It's just more pandering to the right wing base, the same sort of all or nothing obstructionism that has empowered the right wing and is bringing on the coming Trumpocalypse. They are continuing to feed their monster.
Norton

Social climber
Mar 17, 2016 - 02:19pm PT
DIngus,

while I get and agree with what you said....

it seems pretty clear that prominent congressional Republicans have a strong sense
of using their power to keep their comfy careers going by doing what they think their base voters want them to do - and that is to oppose, oppose with everything they have this particular President that fully half of rank and file Republicans believe is not rightfully the President, that he was born in Kenya and that he is a Muslim, and therefore viewed by the base suspiciously.

It also appears that there is a new base developing fast within the GOP, the Donald Trump base voter, white, male, undereducated (stops at High School), angry, and treating today's politics like World Wide Wrestling events.

Unfortunately for the GOP, the tidal wave is decidedly against them with America becoming more non White, more educated, more socially liberal, and there is those pesky women voters who vote more than men do, and they do not like at all what they hear from Republicans and particularly their soon to be Presidential nominee.
zBrown

Ice climber
Mar 17, 2016 - 07:16pm PT
^So you're saying yes, Bitch McC can squeal like a pig then?
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Mar 17, 2016 - 09:36pm PT
I agree that R's succeeded in getting Obama to nominate a centrist. And I think there is a good chance R's climb down and confirm. Just like they eventually passed a budget that Obama was willing to sign.
If R's wait until after the election, I could see Obama pulling the nomination. Why wouldn't he? If R's delay until the election I don't see that it would make Obama look like the childish one. That would be the R's having their next president gets the nomination wish come true.

And you could certainly get someone far more to the left. He is conservative on criminal matters. There is a reason some R's kept mentioning his name.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Mar 18, 2016 - 07:02am PT
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 18, 2016 - 09:08am PT
Even without McConnell's recent games, Obama would nominate a relative centrist given that his party is in the minority.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 18, 2016 - 09:53am PT
McConnell must really believe Trump is going to win or he would back this dude faster than
you can say

"Hillary will nominate Robespierre's ghost!"
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 18, 2016 - 10:27am PT
I miss Gary Larson, but I give him a ton of credit for quitting before his ideas started getting thin.

He might make a fine Supreme Court justice, too.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Mar 18, 2016 - 10:30am PT
The assumption that President Trump will nominate someone more to the stodgy old GOP's sensibilities is a Far Side Stretch.

He's already said that his sister would make a fine supreme court justice.

Curt
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Mar 18, 2016 - 11:40am PT
Haha, Trump's sister is 78 and is a "senior" judge (which means at least partially retried).
Trump later explained that he was joking about appointing his sister, even though she is in fact well qualified for the Supreme Court (federal court of appeals judge, by far the most common path to Court; she was appointed to the court of appeals by Clinton!).

Along the same lines, lots of people think Hills would appoint ol' Billy Boy (who I suppose you could say is at least sort of qualified, although not in the same obvious way that Trump's sister is). There is precedent: consider President/Justice Taft.


Edit:
Good article in liberal rag Slate today:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2016/03/merrick_garland_would_shift_the_supreme_court_left_a_lot.html

Eric Posner (he's not the judge, but rather his son) explains in more detail some of the concepts that I've raised.
To those of you that that think the "liberal" justices are "moderate" and the "conservatives" are "whacko"--Posner will set you straight. They're all pretty much the same; the libs are no better at all than the conservatives.
Also, this Maynard guy is a card carrying liberal and no one Hills appoints will be any worse, for the very simple reason that all the libs vote the same, all the time (that's not literally true, but it's close enough to the truth for discussion purposes).
Norton

Social climber
Mar 29, 2016 - 05:38pm PT
well, it appears that the republicans are shooting themselves again

with Scalia gone and their refusal to consider any nominee presented by President Obama, the Supreme Court's difficulty to muster the votes to overturn lower courts in decisions that would favor conservative ideas is in trouble

perfect example is the court's ruling today, another 4-4 tie that favors union activity

with a ninth justice in place the odds of a 5-4 overturning the lower court increase

and the lower court's ruling stands at 4-4 and stands again at 5-4 to not overturn

I don't get it, McConnell's insistence on not replacing a justice is now hurting his party,
apparently that is secondary to denying the President's nominee a hearing

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/30/us/politics/friedrichs-v-california-teachers-association-union-fees-supreme-court-ruling.html?_r=0
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Mar 29, 2016 - 05:45pm PT
I like seeing the Supreme Court rendered irrelevant. It's the best thing that could happen to it.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2016 - 06:55pm PT
That's a silly thing to say.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Mar 29, 2016 - 08:18pm PT
Karma rules!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 30, 2016 - 01:53am PT
It's certainly a big improvement over the court we had with Scalia.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 30, 2016 - 07:23am PT
I think that what Chaz is saying is that, with a few notable exceptions, most rulings are just
providing more job security for the lawyer ruling class. I mean do we really need 9 million
laws to provide us with an orderly society?

If you walk down the sidewalk, pick up a pretty feather, and take it home, you could be a felon — if it happens to be a bald eagle feather. Bald eagles are plentiful now, and were taken off the endangered species list years ago, but the federal law making possession of them a crime for most people is still on the books, and federal agents are even infiltrating some Native-American powwows in order to find and arrest people. (And feathers from lesser-known birds, like the red-tailed hawk are also covered).

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2015/03/29/crime-law-criminal-unfair-column/70630978/

I do realize this is a bit of thread drift, but it is relevant to my argument.
WBraun

climber
Mar 30, 2016 - 07:32am PT
Everyone in the district of criminals knows Scalia was taken out.

Americans are clueless.

They have no clue who Poindexter is and his connections.

They do not know the methods that their govt. has to take out anyone and make it look like natural death.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2016 - 08:33am PT
I think that what Chaz is saying is that, with a few notable exceptions, most rulings are just
providing more job security for the lawyer ruling class. I mean do we really need 9 million
laws to provide us with an orderly society?

If you walk down the sidewalk, pick up a pretty feather, and take it home, you could be a felon — if it happens to be a bald eagle feather. Bald eagles are plentiful now, and were taken off the endangered species list years ago, but the federal law making possession of them a crime for most people is still on the books, and federal agents are even infiltrating some Native-American powwows in order to find and arrest people. (And feathers from lesser-known birds, like the red-tailed hawk are also covered).

Actually, yes, we need most of those laws.

And part of the reason why eagles are so plentiful is that there isn't much of a market to sell eagle feathers, thanks to laws (which yes, have warts and loopholes) prohibiting their possession and sale. I'm fine with that--I like Eagles.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Mar 30, 2016 - 10:18am PT
I think that what Chaz is saying is that, with a few notable exceptions, most rulings are just providing more job security for the lawyer ruling class. I mean do we really need 9 million laws to provide us with an orderly society?
It is worth noting that so few cases that even deal with a federal issue that could be heard by the Court actually wind up before the Court. The number of lawyers who would actually argue a case before the Supreme Court is a tiny, tiny portion of the population of lawyers.

Plus, it may come as a surprise to many folks, but lots of people out there need lawyers because people are a mess, they create messes and they are incapable for a variety of reasons from fixing those themselves.

Also, blahblah's citation to a Slate article by Eric Posner is not very persuasive (neither the cite nor the underlying article). That article, contrary to what blahblah contends, does not provide any facts or real discussion that Garland would be a liberal justice. Rather, it cites a a law review article that, shockingly, concludes that conservative justices uphold conservative laws and strick down liberal ones, whereas liberal justices do the opposite. The Slate article does not discuss any of Garland's prior decisions in detail nor provide any other evidence to support it's main contention that he would move the Court to the left.

There's another whole big kettle of fish that one could discuss about the law review article, that some of the laws struck down by liberals justices likely relate to expansion of 4th amendment rights, laws banning discrimination on the basis of race, sex, gender, etc., but that is a bit of thread drift.
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2016 - 10:39am PT
Also, one of the jobs of the Supreme Court is to simplify laws. They take many of their cases because different jurisdictions have different holdings, so they try to come up with common rules, thus reducing conflicts and legal clutter.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Mar 30, 2016 - 02:27pm PT
I think that what Chaz is saying is that, with a few notable exceptions, most rulings are just
providing more job security for the lawyer ruling class. I mean do we really need 9 million
laws to provide us with an orderly society?

Yes, and all those 5-4 supreme court rulings created those 9 million laws. Wait. Wut?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 30, 2016 - 02:39pm PT
Also, one of the jobs of the Supreme Court is to simplify laws.

Dirtbag, I would modify that slightly. The SCOTUS's job is to provide interpretations of controversial legal issues to guide future litigants and courts. The only cases the SCOTUS must take are controversies between states, where the court has original and exclusive jurisdiction (i.e. the court is the trial court). In all other cases, the litigants must seek permission for the court to hear the case.

In general, the court agrees to hear a case (in legal jargon, most of the time, grants a writ of certiorari) only for cases likely to have significance beyond the narrow facts of the case. The reason so many cases end up with 5-4 majorities isn't just because the ideologies of the court are divided. The court usually selects to hear cases where the circuit courts of appeals split. The court usually has no need to act on appeals where all the lower courts agree.

I say this, in part, because of my first-year law school experience. I took Criminal Procedure (a class with lots of SCOTUS decisions) in 1977 when the gap between ideologies on the court was much narrower. Nonetheless, I was convinced that my prof (Murray Schwartz, for Steve's benefit. Murray was a fantastic prof, but he taught exclusively Socratically) had a collection of 5-4 opinions going either way on all issues. When I would opine about how I would argue one of his hypotheticals, his reponse more than once was "That's an excellent argument, Mr. Eleazarian. Four justices of the Supreme Court agreed with you."

John
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2016 - 02:46pm PT
The court usually selects to hear cases where the circuit courts of appeals split. The court usually has no need to act on appeals where all the lower courts agree.

This was really the point I was trying to make. Thanks John, excellent post. That must have been an amazing class.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Mar 30, 2016 - 03:45pm PT
Dirtbag, I would modify that slightly. The SCOTUS's job is to provide interpretations of controversial legal issues to guide future litigants and courts. The only cases the SCOTUS must take are controversies between states, where the court has original and exclusive jurisdiction (i.e. the court is the trial court). In all other cases, the litigants must seek permission for the court to hear the case.

John,
I don't think you've got it quite right.
The Supreme Court just a few days declined to hear the lawsuit filed by Nebraska and Oklahoma, which claimed that Colorado's legalization of marijuana violated federal law.
SCOTUS didn't decide the case on the merits, and NE and OK can re-file in a federal district court if they so choose.
See https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/supreme-court-turns-down-case-that-challenges-colorado-marijuana-law/2016/03/21/da8527e2-ef69-11e5-a61f-e9c95c06edca_story.html
I have to admit I thought the rule was as you wrote it until I learned otherwise . . .

The opinion is here: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/15pdf/144orig_6479.pdf

Oh, and Norton--you're even more out of it than you usually are by suggesting that the Repubs refusing to confirm Garland is somehow hurting them on cases before SCOTUS. True, they will now have 4-4 ties (which is a win or loss, depending on the lower court ruling). When Scalia was alive, they would win 5-4. When a lib's on the court, they'll lose 5-4.
That's a bit of a simplification as none of the justices are absolutely predictable as liberal or conservative--as I noted above, Scalia had a surprising (to some) penchant for siding with the accused in some criminal law cases, whereas apparently Garland sides for the government in crim caes (although he's a rock solid liberal on most issues).
I hope I explained that clearly and it's a pretty simple concept.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Mar 30, 2016 - 03:46pm PT
Murray Schwartz, for Steve's benefit.
That's a name I haven't heard in a long time. Had Peter Arenella, who was a first year prof. (in 1987) and is now approaching 30 yrs. at UCLA Law. Crim Law and Procedure are great courses though.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 31, 2016 - 02:34pm PT
Breaking news:

"George Mason University President Ángel Cabrera told the community in an email today that its law school will be renamed the Antonin Scalia School of Law in honor of the recently deceased justice."

Maybe, just maybe, they should have checked the acronym ..........or maybe they did.
zBrown

Ice climber
Mar 31, 2016 - 07:33pm PT


I did not know that Scalia attended Ole Miss. Wasn't he part nigra?

Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Apr 1, 2016 - 02:11am PT
In October of 1956, an election year, President Eisenhower appointed William Brennan to the Supreme Court during a Senate Recess.

Brennan was confirmed with only one dissenting Senate vote (Joseph McCarthy) early the next year. Brennan was regarded as a great Supreme Court justice.



Obama should just do the same, and appoint Merrick Garland during a recess.

His choice of Garland is flawless. There is no legitimate opposition to Merrick Garland from either party.


Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell is an idiot, or more like, a robot.



I-MUST-BLOCK-OBAMA . . . . I-MUST-BLOCK-OBAMA . . . . I-MUST-BLOCK-OBAMA






It's amusing that the so-called "Thurmond Rule", of not appointing judges in the last year of a president's term, has somehow, now, become the "Biden Rule".



Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Apr 1, 2016 - 11:47pm PT
"George Mason University President Ángel Cabrera told the community in an email today that its law school will be renamed the Antonin Scalia School of Law in honor of the recently deceased justice."

Maybe, just maybe, they should have checked the acronym ..........or maybe they did.




Antonin Scalia School for Highly Opinionated Law Exposition
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2016 - 07:14am PT
Interesting idea, although I would be very surprised if Obama did this: appoint Garland even if the Senate doesn't vote on his nomination:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/obama-can-appoint-merrick-garland-to-the-supreme-court-if-the-senate-does-nothing/2016/04/08/4a696700-fcf1-11e5-886f-a037dba38301_story.html
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Apr 11, 2016 - 10:17am PT
Fifteens former presidents of the American Bar Assn. have put together a letter to the Republican Senate letters stating that Judge Garland deserves a confirmation hearing and a vote, calling him "one of the most outstanding judges in the country" and that the Republicans' stance is injecting politics into the judiciary.

http://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2016-04-11/ex-american-bar-association-chiefs-push-for-vote-on-garland
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Apr 11, 2016 - 10:54am PT
[15 former ABA presidents said]. . . the Republicans' stance is injecting politics into the judiciary.

That's pretty cheeky, considering what became of the Robert Bork nomination, but then that's why I quit the ABA twenty years ago. For many years, I was a member of the secured lending subcommitte of the Business Bankruptcy Committee of the ABA Business Law section. When we raised issues concerning needed changes in Article 9 and bankruptcy law, we got nowhere within the ABA as a whole. Their attitude was "Oh, that's business law. How boring!"

They had long since become just another cog in the Democrats' machine. I was a conservative holdout, but it got to the point where my retention of ABA membership sent the wrong signal to those who knew what was up. It's no coincidence that Lois Lerner tried to use the ABA to sanitize her and the Service's illegal vendetta against conservatives.

I also found it interesting that Tom used the example of Justice Brennan's nomination. Brennan was a great liberal jurist appointed by Eisenhower. I'm sure if Obama had appointed a conservative (i.e. someone who thinks the text matters), it would be the Democrats that would be in stall mode.

John
Norton

Social climber
Apr 11, 2016 - 11:05am PT
Blah Blah tried:

Oh, and Norton--you're even more out of it than you usually are by suggesting that the Repubs refusing to confirm Garland is somehow hurting them on cases before SCOTUS. True, they will now have 4-4 ties (which is a win or loss, depending on the lower court ruling). When Scalia was alive, they would win 5-4. When a lib's on the court, they'll lose 5-4.

wow, do you not understand that last week's case was a "union" appeal?

and that a "liberal" 5th justice would have only further upheld the union?

a 5th justice would at least made it more possible to overturn the lower court

instead the court deadlocked at 4-4, leaving the lower court ruling in favor of the union in place

really, blah blah, make a better effort to understand before posting....
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Apr 11, 2016 - 11:06am PT
That's pretty cheeky, considering what became of the Robert Bork nomination
You'll have to refresh my recollection on this one John. I don't remember the ABA having any involvement in that process. My understanding was that Bork did himself in my taking such a remote, deistic view of the court's role, calling it an "intellectual feast".

Also, I would disagree that the ABA is a partisan organization. For every liberal consumer attorney there is a conservative tax or business attorney, etc.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Apr 11, 2016 - 11:21am PT
My response was in calling what the Republicans are doing "injecting" politics into the confirmation process, implying that they are the first to do so. Bork was highly qualified, and calling the position "an intellectual feast" always sounded, to me, like a fairly accurate job description.

And the ABA as a whole did not take particularly partisan positions on judicial nominations, or political issues generally, until the 1980's, when the left took over the organization. It's not dissimilar to what happened to the New England Journal of Medicine, although I'm sure Ken will vehemently disagree.

John
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Apr 11, 2016 - 11:29am PT
Amen, DMT. That was my point. Incidentally, the expression is to hoist on your own petard, a petard being a type of sword.

john
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 11, 2016 - 11:32am PT
The difference is Bork got an up/down vote in a dem-controlled senate within four months of being nominated.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Apr 11, 2016 - 11:35am PT
I think DMT was making a joke, and a petard was an early type of grenade.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Apr 11, 2016 - 11:44am PT
And the ABA as a whole did not take particularly partisan positions on judicial nominations, or political issues generally, until the 1980's, when the left took over the organization.
So if the ABA has not previously gotten involved in the confirmation process to your knowledge, I don't understand why that would undercut their standing to ask that the Senate to avoid partisanship in this instance? Even if we accept your representations that the organization took a left turn in the 80s, it seems to have avoided participation in the political process.

For what it's worth, this is the first instance I've seen since becoming a lawyer in 1990 where the ABA has spoken on the confirmation process. I don't think that's a sign that they've gone left. I think it's a sign the a Senate has gone that far right.

ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Apr 11, 2016 - 12:00pm PT
Bork was given a hearing and vote and was voted down by a majority that included Republicans. Kennedy was subsequently unanimously confirmed.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 11, 2016 - 01:14pm PT

instead the court deadlocked at 4-4, leaving the lower court ruling in favor of the union in place

really, blah blah, make a better effort to understand before posting....

Norton I hope you're just trolling by pretending to be an idiot, but I'm not getting the sense that you are.
I will not waste further time trying to explain to you that adding a liberal to the Supreme Court is not likely to increase the number of conservative decisions rendered by the Court, rather it is likely to increase the number of liberal decisions rendered by the Court.
Again Norton, some things in life are sort of complicated, some things in life are ambiguous, but this situation is neither: it is very simple, and if you can't understand it, you should probably spend time trying to figure out what's wrong with your brain rather than even thinking about what the Supreme Court is or isn't doing.
(But query whether someone who is showing signs of significant cognitive impairment is capable of meaningfully addressing that impairment.)
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Apr 11, 2016 - 01:15pm PT
it is very simple, and if you can't understand it, you should probably spend time trying to figure out what's wrong with your brain rather than even thinking about what the Supreme Court is or isn't doing.
Ah, the irony of this statement...
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 11, 2016 - 01:24pm PT
Ah, the irony of this statement...

Hehe--this coming from someone whose ignorance is exceeded only by his whinyness--both of which I suppose could be good qualifications for downmarket, commodity legal work.
jstan

climber
Apr 11, 2016 - 01:48pm PT
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/hoist-by-your-own-petard.html

A petard is, or rather was, as they have long since fallen out of use, a small engine of war used to blow breaches in gates or walls. They were originally metallic and bell-shaped but later cubical wooden boxes. Whatever the shape, the significant feature was that they were full of gunpowder - basically what we would now call a bomb.


In the sixteenth century a petard might better have consisted of a wooden box with a thick layer of mud behind the gun powder. Explosive energy is directed today by what are called “shaped charges.” So petards, or the idea behind them are still in use today.

When quite young I helped my father construct such a shaped charge using one hundred sticks of 40% nitro. It went off with a hell of a bang. Never since have I felt as powerful as I felt that day. It turned a boulder weighing thirteen tons

Into gravel.

JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Apr 11, 2016 - 02:51pm PT
it is very simple, and if you can't understand it, you should probably spend time trying to figure out what's wrong with your brain rather than even thinking about what the Supreme Court is or isn't doing.
Ah, the irony of this statement...
Hehe--this coming from someone whose ignorance is exceeded only by his whinyness--both of which I suppose could be good qualifications for downmarket, commodity legal work.

Can we get rid of the personal attacks of ST posters and stick with behind-their-back insults of politicians and court nominees? Fat Dad and blah-blah are two of my favorite posters, and neither has a second-rate mind.

Now candidates for public office, on the other hand, . . .

John
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Apr 11, 2016 - 03:52pm PT
Petard was the captain of the Enterprise; a French bloke with an English accent....


Though he did say "Merde" once when the Feringi(klingon for ears bigger than Bridwell's)'s showed up
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 21, 2016 - 01:39pm PT
Boy, it sure likes the Repubs have miscalculated on waiting for the next POTUS...if they had half a brain, they'd concede the election now to Hillary, and confirm Garland before Inauguration Day.

Garland is sure to be far more acceptable to Republicans than anything Hillary is going to put forth (probably replace Garland, too), and with the odds are with Dems on the Senate (maybe the House), they'd be far better off to take this 'bird in the hand'.
Rollover

climber
Gross Vegas
Oct 21, 2016 - 01:57pm PT

snagglepuss

Mountain climber
Oct 21, 2016 - 03:29pm PT
Apogee that would have required long term strategy. The Repubs have focused on building a radicalized base through 50 years of non-stop conspiracy theories. Now they are living with the results. They could have focused on building an informed base through putting forth facts and intelligent arguments to support their views. Again, that would have required a long term strategy.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Oct 21, 2016 - 03:45pm PT
Garland was the acceptable choice for Repubs---they actually suggested him!

But now, if they try to confirm him, I'd yank him, and substitute someone that is moderately liberal, but much younger. Preferably female. Preferably latino or black. Maybe asian?

Perhaps Tani Cantil-Sakauye?
dirtbag

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 21, 2016 - 03:47pm PT
Michele Obama!
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