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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 27, 2016 - 08:58pm PT
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Edit: Just to get it out of the way early on, no this is not a reaction to BURCHEY or the other fine cast of comedians we have here:)
I'm trying to be serious as will quickly be apparent, and I hope that this can be of help to someone.
Wow... May of this year will mark the 20th anniversary of when such a person came into my life. Years marked by marriage, kids, separation as my ultimatum to her demanding change, my acquiescent return with no resultant changes, separation for real and a horrendous divorce process, and isolated parallel parenting when co-parent basically doesn't work. In the course of all that, I've had to learn to cope with her lying, alienation of my extended family, infidelity (that I actually didn't know about until earlier this year), stealing, abduction and child endangerment, false 911 calls against me, and a proxy-war through the kids that affected our custody battle, led to a Child Protective Services case against me that I didn't know about until they called me after they cleared me... I've only seen people like her in movies or books, never in real life. But I guess they are all around us, you just don't know it until you are close enough to peak behind the veil.
Here is is:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
I am in large part motivated by looking for empathy and support, and trying to create a little corner of the taco as a survivors support group.
Where this sh!t can get so messy is where you have someone who is not just a dumb robot with heavy-handed obvious signs of non-normal behavior... where you have a very smart person who is a GREAT actor and emotional observer, who can emulate to a remarkable degree a range of emotions that mimic normal emotions of attachment, and yet... sometimes the chinks in the armor show through. In my case, the gloves really came off in the divorce process and I saw how ugly it could get. In some ways I knew that would happen during the marriage, and I remember about 6 years before the actual divorce wanting to get divorced but being afraid of that outcome.
My life is pretty together at this point: I'm very happily remarried, been together almost 8 years, and it is night and day difference. On some level I mourn the loss of earlier years, loss of my innocence, and so much emotional agony, but on another level I know I had enough demons that on some subconscious level I needed to recreate a hellish present like that to make it seem less scary to confront my childhood issues. That process enabled me to be the man equal to the healthy relationship I now have. If I had met my present wife when I was 20 years old, maybe we would have melted down? Pretty good likelihood. We are both remarkably stubborn and yet we live in loving harmony, knowing when to give and take and what things matter and what things don't, and we have enough in common that I don't feel like I have to compromise all the time. All in all I'm happy with who I am today, always room for improvement, but I'll always be burdened with knowing the life-long consequences for my kids of me not figuring this stuff out sooner.
Folks: if you have any shadow of a doubt that issues like these plague your relationship, KIDS WILL NOT FIX IT! I think of kids as an amplifier for whatever is already going on in your relationship. If its great, it will make it better. If things suck, kids will make it worse.
Anyways. Lately I've been decompressing another layer of this stuff bottled up inside, and just find it vindicating and validating to find youtube links talking about these kinds of people, describing symptoms where I say "yes that is it!" For years I knew something was very wrong, accepted much of the blame as my own that I was this terribly damaged person (which ultimately did help me deal with my own stuff and grow into the person I wanted to be), but I could just never articulate what was really so off about my ex. The first time I felt some external validation of this personality type I was living with, was when I read East of Eden by John Steinbeck. I remember those moments of dawning recognition so clearly. Over the years, I felt so alone and isolated because to everyone we knew on a more superficial level, all they could see was this perfect mask, which I continually observed in a horrified way how she could take that mask on and off and become someone else. And I was afraid to break the silence, because I had been trained so well by her to not share "dirty laundry" with outsiders... even my own family. This was a cardinal rule in her life through which she could keep various relationship triangles intact, and keep me from finding external support for the b.s. that was happening. And I totally bought into it for years and years.
So I'm hoping this thread can be more like a feel-good Oprah thread that spreads light to people, rather than a Jerry Springer-esque freakfest of feeding off the suffering of others. But it's the taco, and my brain is not so riddled with landmines as it once was, and I welcome whatever ways people choose to engage with the material.
P.S. If you yourself are a narcissist, there is hope for you too. A clue in the right direction: look deeply into that place you are afraid to look inside yourself. Stop running from introspection, what made you adopt your life strategies, and free yourself from the innumerable life distractions that help you avoid dealing with stuff. Defuse the emotional energy from those incidents or circumstances, which fuel the fight/flight responses that you express as your natural gifts for manipulating people. Learn to accept the cosmic joke that led you on the path you followed that helped you survive in your life circumstances, forgive yourself, and love yourself for real- not in the self-deluding arrogant superficial way you normally do to look good in front of others. When you learn to love yourself, you can risk being hurt by another person, because you can comfort yourself and you are not in mortal danger anymore. Then you can be vulnerable to another person, facade cast aside. Maybe you will be hurt, and that's ok. Try again, and you will learn better what is the right type of person for you.
p.p.s. If you are in a relationship with a narcissist, don't fall for their b.s. of trying to get better!!!! Info like this and what is on the net can be used for them to deal with their own issues, or to build even more perfect masks to fool everyone including you. So good for them if they want to get better, but don't yourself be sucked into the trap of trying to help them. It may be a very powerful suction, pulling at your primal hard-wired instincts, but it is a black hole that will crush you. Get away.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2016 - 09:02pm PT
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;) Well, I'm not a serial deleter so it will be there when you get bored, curious, or feel ready. And if it ain't relevant, well it's just some bits in the cloud that won't be offended if you don't read them. I won't be offended either.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Jan 27, 2016 - 09:17pm PT
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The "cluster B" personality disorders are notorious:
-Antisocial personality disorder
-Narcissistic personality disorder
-Borderline personality disorder
They are all closely related and share the same traits: a lack or morality, lack of conscience, lack of empathy, and an overpowering sense of entitlement. These people will lie, cheat, steal, manipulate, blame, and do whatever it takes to get benefit for themselves.
These people will destroy you, if you let them in. They are so manipulative that you will find yourself questioning your own self worth, and they will make you feel that everything is your fault, and everything that you do is wrong.
Often these people are intelligent and highly functional, so they are extremely talented in, and well-practiced at, the manipulation game. The manipulation will start out insidiously. If you don't get out quickly, then you could find yourself mired in an abusive relationship in which you're always trying harder and harder to earn their forgiveness, trying to "give" more and more to redeem your self worth. But you'll never be successful because the sociopath keeps moving the goal line.
Narcissists in particular are often very popular and love attention, so it is easy to be drawn into their web. But they leave in their wake many turbulent and destroyed relationships. Others may start dropping hints that "She's nothing but trouble," but you ask yourself: How could such a smart, hot, popular babe be "trouble?"
Listen to the little angel on your shoulder when it starts waving red flags. And then run away as fast as you can!
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Jan 27, 2016 - 09:27pm PT
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A friend of a friend is currently working to unmarry a sociopath. Some people, and the ones they ensnare.
Absolutely terrifying stuff. TDFBS (thank dog for bearspray)
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Jan 27, 2016 - 09:32pm PT
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Thank you for posting
And blessings to you. It awful that this curse is real and that you are entwined.
I have to work through all of it but I know it will have relevance . .
From one of the most letterd park ave NewYork City psychiatric specialist in the field.
No cure , grows worse with age a likely hood of multiple personality disorder made
exponentially worse by alcohol consumption ,
actively look to traumatize children to assert power through others realizing that it is better for the child drama / trama - wise - to leave be,
Obvious abuse, lest it escalate to more severe physical Bad acts against the defenseless
...
It is a vicious thing that is hard to see as a sickness. . .
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Jan 27, 2016 - 09:40pm PT
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Read recently that one main way to identify sociopaths is through self-reporting. They don't see it as a problem, rather as a strength.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2016 - 09:44pm PT
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Unintelligent or very inexperienced people of the type maybe will own up to it.
But using my ex as an example- she almost never leaked to people outside her inner circle. There was one time where she screwed up and outed herself in court ordered co-parent counseling, claiming with authority that when I left her, I left the kids too. When she saw the look on the counselor's face and counselor's disagreement with that statement, she quickly backtracked and changed the story until the expression on the counselor's face was more relaxed. So just asking is NOT a sufficient indicator.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Jan 27, 2016 - 09:55pm PT
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Don't caps me mister wordy wordyson. As your link points out "you spot it, you got it"
Lecture someone else, I had a wife.
What are your qualifications beyond YouTube and a shitty life choice/ wife choice.
(I could wink now but what I'm doing there is a little stress testing of you, our author and educator )
Are you hot or are you laughing?
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Jan 27, 2016 - 09:57pm PT
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Moose, how are you holding up? I know that you're facing some real stuff but not really sure what's appropriate to ask or say. With all respect, I've grown very fond of your persona here and wish you the very best.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Jan 27, 2016 - 09:59pm PT
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And Brennan and Nut are two of the most moderated voices as well. I should go:)
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Jan 27, 2016 - 10:02pm PT
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10:00 Taps at the Presidio of Monterey. Melancholy but nice.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2016 - 10:09pm PT
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Hey Flip Flop, your observations are real: "you spot it, you got it"
I keep asking myself this, and certainly have shades of it with my attitude toward time, and not being sufficiently respectful of it for others (which sycorax just helped me realize more deeply).
For me to go into a relationship with such a person and get married after obvious early warning signs, I was obviously predisposed to the type and that would be my mom. And my personal negative issues that I've worked through so far are a mix of copying or rebelling against various issues my parents had. It would make logical sense that these sorts of issues are lurking in me as the next layer of the onion to peel back.
I can see the connection with some issues that affect my attitude toward my career. As an employee or worker, I still think of myself as the person I was 15-20 years ago at work, but that probably blinds me to how much I have changed in that time. Probably for the better in my personal relationships, but for the worse in some of my work relationships- or a mix. Being able to handle confrontations can be a double-edged sword.
Edit: Jim Brennan, absolutely I was a part of it during the marriage. I stayed because I immaturely decided after a previous breakup that "any two people can make it work if they commit to each other." I was rebelling against my parent's divorce. And wrongly extrapolating lessons learned from a prior circumstance in my life. My ex stayed because of her culture that did not permit divorce, following the example of her own parents that stayed together in utter misery. Our relationship was so volatile because we had very different methods of giving and receiving love and feeling safe. I had a hard-wired shut-down/flight response to confrontation (couldn't even tell a waiter when my food order was wrong and something I couldn't eat), and my ex had a hard-wired chasing/fight response to being abandoned. Oil and water, or maybe water and lithium. All that dynamic is somewhat tangential to the narcissism topic here. But these circumstances did inflame the self-protective behaviors in my ex to have more pronounced expression of her traits. But there were huge clear examples before and after me.
So yes I was not purely a victim of this horrible monster... we both felt very wronged by the end of the marriage, but we both had very different senses of entitlement or what would constitute fairness. As for the divorce, that part is where the monster came out full force. At that point I could have just walked away to avoid further complications, but I would have had to give up 100% my connection with my kids to do that. I did eat it on the money stuff to be done with it, but kids are a different story.
Ironically, my divorce helped me understand the pressures my dad went through and why he was not a greater part of my childhood. Many times I wondered whether it would be better for my kids for them to just grow up hating me or not knowing me and having an ambivalent relationship toward me, but have a more stable life overall. I didn't choose that, but my dad did. I have had a renaissance in my relationship with him in the last few years. Kind of funny how life works out.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Jan 27, 2016 - 10:27pm PT
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Interesting stuff. People are nuts. It's a spectrum of traits and behaviors that we all enjoy. I'm very interested in plasticity or changeability in mental health. Probably because I went through a shitty child custody battle and have met the new darker me. On one hand, the love for my son has given me limitless unconditional love and infinite patience. On the other, I am now extremely protective of him only. And ,as for that infinite patience, there's a scariness to the dark side of that. Paradoxes and duality everywhere. I have my lighthouse though. I'm a pacifist and I will not do anything in life that might cause suffering or lead to more separation from the little dude.
The takeaway for you might be this saying that I remind myself of often " I'm not in the business of hating my kids mother."
We should be friends. Our kids would get along.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jan 27, 2016 - 10:35pm PT
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"p.p.s. If you are in a relationship with a narcissist, don't fall for their b.s. of trying to get better!!!! Info like this and what is on the net can be used for them to deal with their own issues, or to build even more perfect masks to fool everyone including you. So good for them if they want to get better, but don't yourself be sucked into the trap of trying to help them. It may be a very powerful suction, pulling at your primal hard-wired instincts, but it is a black hole that will crush you. Get away."
"Narcissists in particular are often very popular and love attention, so it is easy to be drawn into their web. But they leave in their wake many turbulent and destroyed relationships. Others may start dropping hints that "She's nothing but trouble," but you ask yourself: How could such a smart, hot, popular babe be "trouble?"
Listen to the little angel on your shoulder when it starts waving red flags. And then run away as fast as you can!"
The seduction is incredibly seductive. If you have the option, go no contact. It's the only option.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Jan 27, 2016 - 10:40pm PT
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You can let go between powder turns a little. Otherwise, Rage buddy, Rage.
And when I say 'fond' I mean I Love You Man.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jan 27, 2016 - 10:43pm PT
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I'm quite curious about the nature/nurture conditions that spawn Narcissism Personality Disorders. Sources, anyone?
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Jan 27, 2016 - 10:55pm PT
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Apogee,
I am way out of my depth when it comes to pop psychology but what-the-heck. It occurs to me that sociopathy could be a viable adaptation to messed up society. I'm thinking of how young women had to develop winning tactics against unreasonable odds. Seems to make sense that some might resort to manipulation and extreme self-preservation. Just thinking out loud.
It was either Krishnamurti, one of the Buddhas or Dick Van Patten who said " It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2016 - 10:58pm PT
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I remind myself of often " I'm not in the business of hating my kids mother."
This has been a challenge for me over the years. By the time I decided to leave, I had no hatred. Rather it was a bursting sense of compassion and relief and an attempt to save our own possibilities for leading happy lives. For me, I could have sat down with her and cried for our tragedy and hugged it out and gone our separate ways peacefully. That morphed over the course of the divorce... I kept forgiving, letting down my guard, normalizing relations, only to get screwed over and over again. I kept opening myself in ways that are healthy and normal in normal relationships, but they exposed me to tricks that worked against me having access to my kids. So for years I have had to consciously keep my guard up, which is exhausting when my nature has been to just let it go and try to be normal.
At this point I've managed to create enough distance, minimize interaction as much as possible, learned the hard way what issues that seem simple and obvious but won't get resolved in court, and I just let it all go. It's actually a problem sometimes because I need to consciously hold on to the energy of the past grievances to keep up my guard against present threats. Sometimes my present wife gets frustrated when I feel hurt or get burned by the same sorts of things over and over again, rooted in me being overly optimistic or thinking that things are different now.
So it's a weird balance for me: to keep myself protected, to protect my access to our kids, holding on to enough memories to be able to do that, but not hold on to the emotions of it, the resentments and sense of injustices that eat at me. I can mostly deal with this stuff in a matter-of-fact way now, coldly dissecting the behaviors and circumstances to better understand and recognize it... talking about it helps me keep it present without the emotions of it, so I can do what I must in fending off stuff from my ex and keep myself on an even keel, while also being open enough to take advantage of co-parenting opportunities when they arise.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Jan 27, 2016 - 11:04pm PT
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Sound like solid parenting Nut. If we can't handle our kids mom then how will we teach them to handle her.
I was in the law library for a few hours today researching my options. You sure don't want my struggles.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2016 - 11:13pm PT
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I'm quite curious about the nature/nurture conditions that spawn Narcissism Personality Disorders. Sources, anyone?
Anecdotal:
 parents highly conflicted, the future Narcissist forced to be emotional caretaker for mother (i.e. comforting the mother while she was crying after parents fought)
Future Narcissist needed mothers love, so had to perform the role
Future Narcissist grew strong contempt for mother's weakness, vowed to herself to never let another person do that to her
Future Narcissist developed strong angry response to crying or weakness
Mother of future Narcissist fawned over her as if she were really a princess, indulging everything, not developing reasonable boundaries for children. Child was permitted to throw temper tantrums in crowded streets to get her way. Raised in an artificial bubble
Future Narcissist goes to college and enters the real world, is horribly traumatized by how "mean" people are (i.e. not indulging her as her mom did), and redoubles efforts to never let anyone get the upper hand of her
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Daphne
Trad climber
Northern California
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Jan 27, 2016 - 11:13pm PT
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Narcissists can be very attractive. Take Donald Trump (please):
He is a classic personality disorder type, yet look how alluring he is. People fall into his web (maybe you have a narcissistic edge if you are won over by him?) and they wont find out until it is too late that there is no depth there, only a shiny exterior.
There's a feeling I get when I'm with a narcissist. Unfortunately, it's taken me way too long to get wise to it. But once you identify it, it makes you want to back away.
Thanks for bringing your depthful process to the taco, Nut.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Jan 27, 2016 - 11:42pm PT
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It takes 2 to create drama on a scale you've presented. Whoa dude, did you eat some "Bad Attitude Wheaties" or something?
You've been quite sour lately
It does not take 2 to Tango when it comes to cluster B types
They generate their own drama and the victims are unwittingly sucked in
The cluster B types use people without their knowledge
Most people are driven by genuine feelings, trust and a degree of altruism
Cluster B types manipulate those genuine feelings for their own gain
And in the process destroy the other person
Cluster B types are so skilled at manipulation that you don't realize what's happening. It's very insidious.
I think a classic example is the battered woman. It's easy for us to blame the victim for not leaving the perpetrator, but these women have been brain washed by the perpetrator. The victim's confidence and self esteem have been insidiously destroyed by a skilled manipulator, and the women are no longer able to see their full range of options. Even very intelligent people are susceptible to the manipulation of cluster B types.
When you trust someone, you tend to believe what they say. If you have a very skilled manipulator, they can slowly use your trust to make you believe that you are a very terrible, worthless person. The more you love and trust, the more susceptible you are to their manipulations.
But once you identify it....
Exactly. You'll get caught in the web once, but once you figure out what the hell happened then you start to quickly recognize the cluster B types when you meet them.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jan 28, 2016 - 05:44am PT
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I'm only here because I'm up and have read East of Eden twice, enjoying the tale both times, but not spending any time really delving into the characters' motives.
But I recall Cathy, the little witch!
SparkNotes, God bless you.
Cathy Ames
The parasitic, manipulative Cathy is the embodiment of evil in the novel and the most static of the main characters. Her evil seems to be innate and all-consuming, as she displays murderous and sexually perverse tendencies from an early age.
A figure of infertility and destruction who kills her parents and attempts to kill her own unborn children, Cathy is a debased version of the biblical Eve, whom the Christian tradition sees as the mother of all humankind.
Like Eve, Cathy is associated with sin, but whereas Eve is deceived into committing sin, Cathy embraces it wholeheartedly and commits evil simply for its own sake. Cathy has an overwhelmingly pessimistic view of humankind: she believes that there is only evil in the world and therefore surrenders herself to it fully.
All the while, she fails to understand the good in other characters and instead uses their trusting natures to achieve her own predatory ends. Notably, we never get any sense that Cathy is using her evil acts to reach any sort of ultimate goal or aim.
For this reason, some critics have dismissed Cathy as an implausible character and a major weak link in Steinbeck’s novel. The narrator of East of Eden himself is somewhat confounded by Cathy, as he struggles to understand her and revises his opinion of her throughout the novel.
In any case, Cathy is a symbol of the human evil that will always be present in the world, and her loss of power over Adam and Cal bolsters the novel’s message that individuals have the choice to reject evil in favor of good.
And that last is what's called timshel.
Fascinating subject here about what makes people tick.
Thanks, Nutso.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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Jan 28, 2016 - 06:15am PT
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When i got divorced it was like group sex...I got screwed in front of the jury. .Rodney D..
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Jan 28, 2016 - 06:22am PT
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Beautiful Me
Wrapped up in myself
Cloaking the inner me
What's not to like
How bad could I be
Gone to find myself
Forsaking all I go
Ducks ducks ducks
All in a row
Centered and complete
Such beauty you can't hate
I'm the best I've ever been
My priorities are straight
I'm full of myself
And think you'd confess
I should do what I want
I'm probably the best
I'm glad you understand
And most people can see
That no one else deserves
To be as full of me
-Beautiful Me
01/28/2016
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Jan 28, 2016 - 06:47am PT
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You want this thread to be like an OPRAH session..!?! dude and u talk alot of sh#t about rich corporate dudes.. oprah just scored 12million bucks on those recent im still a fat azz commercials..
What are we going to do with these bernie voters...
Anyways, doesnt it suck dating a TROLLCUNTING..
Those early RED FLAGS do help.. ive had the misfortune of dating the like.. when it came to break up talk i told em "ur a bad investment".. bad people seem to cost $$$..
Good people save you $$$..
Currently the lady im with is awesome. Not a day of stupiville.. good luck with you new lady hope its a better run for the dollar..
Edit:this thread needs to be more like..
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jan 28, 2016 - 07:46am PT
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Nut, your 'anecdotal' view sounds very plausible, and spookily familiar.
Check out this article:
http://shrink4men.com/2013/04/30/obsessing-over-an-abusive-ex-thoughts-on-being-stuck/
If you've never been in an abusive relationship with a 'Cluster B' type, you are more skilled at identifying them than most. An enviable skill.
Edit: "Cluster B types are so skilled at manipulation that you don't realize what's happening. It's very insidious."
+1 & whooollleee bunch more
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2016 - 08:40am PT
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Apogee, good summary where the background perfectly applies to me and everything else was a perfect match for my state during the marriage. By the time I chose to leave the second time, I had zero thoughts of going back or recriminations. I was truly free in that sense.
I only reached that state because of intensive efforts with personal counseling and self-enrolled anger management classes to better understand the dynamics, to see it was not something I could deal with sufficiently on an intellectual plane, and the deepest impact for me to resolve the emotional energy that fueled my part in the dance, was going to something called the Hoffman Process. Basically an 8 day retreat to a "safe place" to go as deep and primal as you dare into how your hard-wired emotional responses came to be, and changing it. That was the best thing I ever did for myself. That unlocked a different level of awareness to understand the patterns, massively increased my coping mechanisms, but at some points I still had melt-downs in trying to cope with it, and my increased self esteem let me have the option of leaving in the face of something that I recognized I could never fix.
But because of the kids and my desire to remain involved in their lives, there is an open channel of vulnerability still that can always be exploited. That is what I continue practicing to manage.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 28, 2016 - 09:00am PT
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I like to look at this situation as I might have in my former life - yer dealing with a double agent
skilled in the use of misinformation.
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overwatch
climber
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Jan 28, 2016 - 09:07am PT
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I know the guy that claims he broke "Jerry's" nose.You can barely make him out in the video.
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Gerg
Trad climber
Calgary
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Jan 28, 2016 - 09:49am PT
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NutAgain and Sierra Ledge Rat - I want to thank you for posting your thoughts and I learned my ex was a bit Cluster B.
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Gerg
Trad climber
Calgary
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Jan 28, 2016 - 09:53am PT
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I know the guy that claims he broke "Jerry's" nose.You can barely make him out in the video.
Really Overwatch you know him?!
My brother and I videotaped that episode when it aired and remember every word spoken...
"Your gonna git hit, YOUR GONNA GIT HIT!"
I love oddball info, would like to know more about the chair tosser if you care to share!
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jan 28, 2016 - 10:05am PT
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narcissistic sociopaths and sociopathic narcissists do indeed suck.
Avoid them at all costs.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jan 28, 2016 - 11:55am PT
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Interesting and mature insights - but simply blaming another for your own life problems is what's at the core here.
In that regard, the heavy and involved intellectualization of these problems is itself rather narcissistic. It's probably why you fell in love with this person.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jan 28, 2016 - 12:19pm PT
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Mentored a person who probably was borderline and then had to un-mentor her. Difficult work. The trail of mayhem in her rear view mirror was endless and quite amazing.
The big picture was she was deeply suffering and I wasn't going to be able to help her and had to cut all ties to avoid the constant deception and associated drama.
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overwatch
climber
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Jan 28, 2016 - 12:23pm PT
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yes I don't mind sharing, it is a part of my life that I am not proud of. I hung out with and was friends with several WAR skins and this guy, who I won't name, was married to Tom Metzgers' daughter. The only reason I hung out with those types of people was not because of their philosophy, which I really did not agree with but because I wanted to test myself in real fights.
I had started in martial arts at an early age and had done the tournament fighting route, but soon realized that it was not a true test of one's ability. At that time there were many gangs that were associated with the punk rock movement.
This was way before the UFC existed and there really were no outlets for full contact fighting in this country. I eventually went and fought in Taiwan, but in the meantime I found all that I was looking for and more going to shows with those guys and I am lucky to still be alive today to tell the tale.
I was actually supposed to go with them to the taping of the show but talked my way out of it because I was realizing what knuckleheads they really were.
They came back from the incident and the dude proudly proclaimed that he was the one that threw the chair. I had my doubts because the guy was really a mild mannered person but his claim was confirmed by others that were there. I think he was swept up in the moment and he was trying to prove himself to the white aryan resistance guys that were really hard core.
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Gerg
Trad climber
Calgary
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Jan 28, 2016 - 01:23pm PT
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thanks Overwatch!
Its neat to remember something so vivid in ones life then many years down the line(that was like 1988 or 89?) it comes back and you get to hear the history behind it.
We watched it over and over on video, and it was very obvious the guy you know tossed the chair. And it was big news then of course - David Letterman had a 'new inventions' gag piece a couple nights later where he had a Geraldo 'Door-knocker' which was a little wood chair and a door with Geraldo's face in relief like a bronze lion or whatever!
Ask him if he saw that!?
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overwatch
climber
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Jan 28, 2016 - 01:35pm PT
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It has been about 10 years since I've seen that guy. he has actually kind of reform his beliefs and is no longer married to Metzger's daughter. last I heard he was managing the punk rock band DI
vvvvv Thanks for the thoughtful post, elohellymae. I know. I look back and giggle with glee that I am still here, although I think you are loling because you think I am really a racist and you would not want to let an honest share go by without mocking.
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Chris Roderick
climber
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Jan 28, 2016 - 02:57pm PT
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Good thing you're the only person this has ever happened to, Nut Again (signs away another half month worth of wages to attorney..) :-)
I'm sure there is a part of you that, like me, unconsciously sought this out. Growing up in an unstable environment, you grow so accustomed to chaos, that whenever things are going well, there is always an ominous and highly uncomfortable feeling that the other shoe is about to drop.
But now, about to embark on another months' long legal battle, I feel eerily calm and focused.
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clode
Trad climber
portland, or
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Jan 28, 2016 - 03:14pm PT
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Dear Mr. Nut. I have quite a story to tell, but the short of it is, like you, I have been the victim of a narcissistic sociopath, who unfortunately happens to be MY MOTHER! I didn't discover this until 2014 when my wife and I had to put my parents in an assisted living facility. Despite hard, honest work on the part of me and my wife, every time we went to visit, at some point my mother (no, she never was a mother to me, but merely a BIRTHING UNIT!), would verbally abuse us for no good reason. She took away my Power of Attorney to manage their estate (which her lawyer said I was doing a fine job of). And now I am out of her will, against my father's wishes. Unfortunately, he passed away later that year. It should have been her instead! Anyway, it's been difficult facing the fact that I never had the kind of mother a loving son truly deserves.
I could write a book about this (maybe I will someday). If you want to hear more, PM me. Good luck and move forward with those who truly care about you! The best advice is forget about those awful people, and NEVER give them a chance to abuse you again. Sever all ties. Do not talk with them. Pretend they don't exist!
I plan to title my book, "Murder By Narcissism".
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Chugach
Trad climber
Vermont
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Jan 28, 2016 - 05:36pm PT
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Thanks for posting. My sister married a BPD/Narcissist who destroyed everything in his wake. These people are pure evil.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2016 - 05:43pm PT
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Clode, check this out:
http://hoffmaninstitute.ca/articles/therapy-changed-life/
10+ years later and I am happy about the changes in my life and inside myself as a consequence of following this path. One of the key things that is different about their approach than other things I've seen:
There is a focus not just on avoiding the negative patterns of your parents, but of also recognizing how binding it can be to be stuck rebelling against them, doing the opposite. It's possible your mom had some good traits mixed among the sh!t, and it's easy to get stuck rejecting everything because it's from her. So the deal about getting over parents is to be able to choose your actions and beliefs and defuse triggers without the automated responses related to our experience of our parents. Then you can relate to them in a less emotionally charged way.
I can see I need to go through a round of these exercises to get rid of some of the latent energy about issues with my ex. That will get at whatever issues of my own that flirt with narcissism. But I'm afraid that if I let go of that energy, I will let my guard down and get taken advantage of... That's something else I can deal with. Man, this communercayshun stuff works.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Jan 28, 2016 - 05:55pm PT
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Ummmm. I thought we were supposed to have some compassion for people with mental illness. These are DSM classifications. Calling them "evil" is rather harsh. You don't have to keep them a part of your life...but demonizing them?
Susan
Edit. Guilty guilty guilty
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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Jan 28, 2016 - 08:31pm PT
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I have compassion for Cosmic...
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Jan 28, 2016 - 09:09pm PT
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ya know, this is a bit of a weird thread to me...
i respect a lot of what you write on here NutAgain! and so i hope you don't take the following in anything but the respectful vein that it is intended...
but i have to say, i think this thread should have been titled and come more from the direction of masochists, messianic complexes, and perpetual victimization... [or some such]
because it seems to me this thread is to a large degree, at least in part of the way it has been framed, a continuation of the same cycles that it is attempting to move beyond...
and i say this, having some long term, deep and painful relationships with people that had/have at least some narcissistic tendencies...
at the end of the day, the pain and difficulties weren't really about them, though. because those relationships were because of who i was, as well...
i attracted those people, i needed them to show me aspects of myself, and in the end they also supported me through a lot of shIt that i probably wouldn't have emotionally and physically survived without them.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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Jan 28, 2016 - 09:19pm PT
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Cosmic...quit hogging the mirror..
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Jan 28, 2016 - 09:20pm PT
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I think that you just admitted it, Mr. Brennan. I will second that.
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Daphne
Trad climber
Northern California
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Jan 28, 2016 - 09:20pm PT
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Meeting the diagnosis of Narcissistic Personality Disorder is very different from having narcissistic tendencies. Someone who has some narcissitic tendencies also has other tendencies that can make the quality of relationship quite satisfying in ways. There can also be an ownership of the narcissism. This is not possible with NPD. People with NPD rarely enter treatment, but my office is filled with people they have hurt.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Jan 28, 2016 - 09:21pm PT
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jim b: hahahaha. got a good hard laugh out of that one...
edit to add, Daphne: so are you saying that if someone has NPD the people they affect are purely victimized and there are no qualities that make the relationship quite satisfying in ways? because of your wording i'm assuming that your post is in part a reference to what i wrote... if so, there's a reason i said "at least" narcissistic tendencies... while i have my suspicions, especially in one case, i ain't a doctor and to my knowledge those people have never sought out a diagnosis, so it's not my place to say anything more than what i did...
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Daphne
Trad climber
Northern California
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Jan 28, 2016 - 10:41pm PT
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nah000, I will go so far as to say that it is impossible to have a relationship that is anything other than superficial with someone with NPD. They are just awful to be around, unless you are their sycophant, or are similarly wounded, or you do not require authenticity or emotional vulnerability. You have to be willing to one-down yourself. Their intimacies are manipulations. The core of their psyche is extremely wounded and they rarely let anyone see how small they feel inside.
It is far easier to be in relationship with a Borderline (not that I recommend it), as they actually crave relationship and will enter therapy to find a way out of their hell. An NPD enters therapy when their family/partner drags them, but since they won't acknowledge that they have any problems ("What problem, my problem is that I'm just too good for them") the family disintegrates.
I recommend the book Trapped in the Mirror, a book for people with narcissistic parents.
I should add that it isn't easy to see narcissism coming at you if you prize confidence. Narcissists are brimming with what looks like confidence and it is only after you know them that you realize it is all a strategy.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Jan 28, 2016 - 11:10pm PT
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hey Daphne, thanks for that.
i may be off base here, but i'll continue potentially digging a hole anyway...
if this thread was about narcissistic [whether npd or borderline] parents and by birth family members, i wouldn't have made the comment i did.
because it was initiated regarding a spouse, the framing, as i interpreted it, as being one of primarily victimization, remains strange to me.
that said, i accept it's possible the implication i'm reading into what you've written is correct and i may very well be mistaken in my reaction because i have just never experienced true clinical npd.
if that's the case, i hope i never do, as what i have experienced was difficult enough and so i'd prefer to remain politely mistaken...
all the best, all.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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Jan 29, 2016 - 07:37am PT
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Daphne...You mention confidence being used by the narciscist as a strategy..What is that strategy..? Control of the the victim...? Do narcissist make good used- car sales people..?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 29, 2016 - 07:43am PT
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RJ, only if they check their integrity at the door. That said, Cal Worthington was just a good
old-fashioned American who liked airplanes and cowboy hats.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2016 - 09:19am PT
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Their intimacies are manipulations. The core of their psyche is extremely wounded and they rarely let anyone see how small they feel inside.
Where I left off in my understanding of my ex, was that after so many years together I still didn't know what she was thinking, what was real and what was not, how she might react to a situation, and to what lengths she might be willing to go to get what she wants. One of the talents she had is to mix authentic emotions with fake ones, like a good liar can blend elements of truth with fiction to be more convincing.
My ex during some moments of vulnerability (very little in the ending years) would acknowledge how F'd up she was, that I should run away. The sad part is these moments of sincere authenticity would appear to me as a glimmer of hope to salvage things, that there is a person who wants to change, and in some alternate version of this world we could make it work. It just served to keep me hooked in for more stuff that I should not have accepted.
Nah000, I completely agree with your perspective. I'm not sure how to focus on naming and describing the socio/narci stuff without it coming off as a victimization thread. These relationships I think are like a lock and a key that fit each other. I couldn't get out of it until I changed myself. I can't see clearly why I am suddenly focusing on it more, maybe a sort of release after being silent about it for so long, taking a deep breath in the light of day (and partial Internet anonymity. Honestly it's a period of relative calm and stability with my ex, but I am always waiting for the other shoe to drop. And it's hard to sort out when it's a shoe dropping on that front via kid manipulation, or just normal kid growing up stuff.
But sometimes (many times?) the resurfacing of old water under the bridge does bug me enough to get in the way of getting my work done. Back to the dilemma of really letting it go vs holding on enough so I remember to keep my defenses up.
Other replies
I agree it is too narrow-minded to call these folks "evil". It is a dysfunction as an adult that served them well in the circumstances of their childhood, and may play a prominent part in their successes in other aspects of life
we all have our own issues, but not all of us have issues that go so far to damage others. It's still worthwhile to look at ourselves and be aware of how our own actions are hurtful to others even if we can't readily see it
it's probably worth it's own thread, or mixing up in here, the dysfunctions that serve as the easily openable lock to match the keys of narcissism and sociopathy.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jan 29, 2016 - 09:50am PT
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I haven't found the NPD in my life to be operating from a locus of 'evil'. Their orientation to the world, and strategies they use to interact with others (esp. in their closest relationships) are simply the way they operate in life. It's not especially conscious- it's just their personality wiring.
That's the realization one has to come to grips with- that these personality disorders are not something that is 'fixable' in therapy, as this is hard wiring in behavior that isn't going to change. As their partner, you can either choose to leave it, or cope with their behaviors. But do not ever expect that they will change.
"People with NPD rarely enter treatment, but my office is filled with people they have hurt."
We participated in couples therapy for a time, but it was entirely ineffective. One of the core traits of NPD's is mastery in manipulation of the therapy process, away from themselves and redirecting everything onto their partners. The therapist gets sucked into their manipulations, further reinforcing the 'gaslighting' the NPD is doing on their partner. It's truly crazy-making.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2016 - 10:44am PT
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^^^ Apogee, completely consistent with my experience of couples therapy.
here are a few more observations from my situation that I haven't seen discussed as much:
There is a very clear inner and outer circle. When I was on the inside, my ex would treat me with a degree of care that I have seldom seen elsewhere. Maybe this was just the cultivation phase for later exploitation, but I think it was deeper than that. I think it was the "honeymoon" phase where my ex still had the ideal hopes of a beautiful life that could be, and as soon as we had some hiccups then it was a snap back to the reality of "I'm not safe" and the full narcissist/socio-detachment stuff would kick in. My version of that defense response was thinking (and more or less saying) "this is it, it's over" and that reaction from me further inflamed her issues.
An aspect of than inner circle is an inability to separate others from self. When I was in the inner circle, it was this all-encompassing full emotional immersion committed to the end and to the exclusion of everything and everyone else, or if there was anything that threatened that or broke that illusion then it flipped back to me being on the outer circle, go F-off and die. It was full intensity good or full intensity bad.
-I was (most or half of the time) on the inner circle during the early part of my marriage, which is what made things manageable. That involved me reshaping myself into the person I needed to be to make the relationship work, which I willingly did. One thing I did notice along the way, is that our intimacy never felt like peers- her ability to be loving toward me worked best my ex treating me as if I was her kid (except in the moments of sex).
As soon as kids came along, she had a real target for that maternal style loving. The kids were on the inner circle, inseparable from her, and her mother was elevated to the inner circle in a very volatile and inconsistent way (she was living with us for extended periods of time), and I was cast out of the circle.
There was a third intermediate circle between inside and outside. There was ALWAYS at least one other guy vying for a favored position with her. She seemed to always have (and still does) one guy that would selflessly do errands for her, go to ATM machine to pick up cash, go shopping, pick up this or that, trim the yard bushes, etc... always had a person who did that for her who hoped to have some relationship with her while she treated them like absolute crap with occasional moments of niceness. As soon as the marriage with me ended (and I can see in hindsight based on stories she shared that she had this for years before I met her), she always had one guy in that prominent position and one or more waiting in the wings that she used as leverage to get what she wanted from the primary.
This triangle idea isn't restricted to guys... it was the same with her friends who are girls (which frankly were not many), and also could include her mom.
OK gotta go for now.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Jan 29, 2016 - 11:31am PT
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Hey - glad that you're feeling good about yourself again, and that you're now a healthy person who's able to have a healthy relationship with the right degree of stubbornness, etc. It's always validating to believe that in the wide range of neurodiversity, we have the right kind of brain functioning and that its objectively clear (hurray YouTube!) that someone else is to blame for reality's problems.
For me, yea I have family with mental illness (autism, bipolar, borderline. ADHD) and it's challenging to understand how to support them and try to get a better big picture for all of us without resorting to blaming myself or blaming them. When push comes to shove, and we fail to be able to make any more progress "fixing" what's wrong, we need to resort to approving of ourselves and blaming others using whatever reasons we can find - "normal" gender, skin color, mental functioning, etc. But it's tricky being able to do so while maintaining a sense of our own moral goodness. But that's the way humans are built to believe, and it sounds like you're getting better at doing so in the "normal" human way, so well done! If we can't believe that being a "normal" human is a good thing, then we're all in trouble.
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darkmagus
Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
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Jan 29, 2016 - 11:46am PT
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Cool thread! I recently learned a bit about narcissism through Sam Vaknin's YouTube videos. Then I read "The Narcissist Next Door" by Jeffrey Kluger, which I recommend.
I was always puzzled by the odd behavior of my uncle and one of my good friends growing up. Now I am not puzzled, because I understand that they are narcissists. Probably not full-blown NPD, but definitely narcissists.
At my wedding reception, my uncle told a group of us that the next time we're all together like this, it will be at his funeral. WTF?
My other narcissist, a friend from childhood, didn't attend my wedding even though he was invited. He didn't actually decline the invitation though. Because why would anyone want to be somewhere that they're guaranteed to NOT be the center of attention?
Narcissists are a very calculating bunch, but very simple to understand. They are machines programmed to do ONE thing: extract narcissistic supply from anyone/anything they can.
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canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
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Jan 29, 2016 - 01:05pm PT
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Laughing at all the head pats. I hate to burst the Kumbaya bubble going on here, but someone is not nearly as evolved as they think.
I saw an awful lot of "they can make you do this, they can make you do that". That's called denial bud. No one can make you do diddily. You did that all by yourself. YOU. No one but you. Own that, psych that, then come back and tell us all about how you allowed you to be screwed, over and over. Oh, and try to do without equivocation and excuses about how that "other" made you.
Bad things can happen to good people. Once. After that it's on them.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jan 29, 2016 - 01:42pm PT
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I'd agree with canyoncat (and others) that if one gets into multiple relationships with NPD's (or similar), then shame on them. It's the first one, though, that is the insidious one, and is oftentimes not immediately recognizable, yet very seductive. Many find themselves pretty far down the road (kids, financial commitments, etc) before this becomes clear- and it's a helluva lot harder to back out of it then.
Personally, my situation was relatively mild- I'd characterize that partner as a 2.5 / 5 on the NPD scale (no such thing, btw), but enough that it was quite damaging to the potential of our relationship. Though we were down the road a ways, it wasn't so far that getting the hell out wasn't an option. Painful as it was, that's exactly what I did.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jan 29, 2016 - 03:50pm PT
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So who's going to be the first to say that sex with a narcissist was awesome and led you to stay too long at the party ?
Been there. Done that. Yes, awesome. Until it wasn't.
I'm not trying to make light of this conversation. It was a real train wreck.
On another note, my birth father left a swath of messes in his trail. One time he told me, in the most well meaning and sincere tone, "never have kids, they'll ruin your life." That's the way it was with him. Seemingly loving but cutting you off at the knees every chance he could get. Reading this thread has got me to thinking about that in a new light.
I was always, and remain today, in awe of his musicianship. I think he would have had a great career, but he sabotaged himself by harboring an inner resentment of those more successful the he. I think he felt entitled, a word which has come up here more than once.
I say "birth father" because my stepdad, who some of my friends here know about or have met is NOT to be confused with him.
It's not every day there's a conversation on this forum which helps to enlighten me on such things.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jan 29, 2016 - 06:43pm PT
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10 Professions That Attract the Most Sociopaths
By Roy Klabin May 26, 2013
Our notions of good and evil are as malleable and evolving as the society around us. Whereas once we used to burn opinionated women as witches, or assume seizures were a sure sign of demonic possessions — we now rely on scientific inquiry and skepticism to define the world around us. This has led to a wide array of psychological categories, groups and behaviors through which we self-identify: Introvert, type A, depressed, delusional, egotistical or sociopath!
There are still ongoing disputes in field of psychiatry, and the inner workings of the mind remain a great scientific mystery yet to be fully explored. However, when it comes to sociopathy, we seem to have a somewhat functioning definition: a lack of empathy, emotions, or ability to identify with others coupled with a superficial charm, persuasiveness, focus, and egomania.
It might surprise some to learn, however, that the vast majority of sociopaths aren't killers lurking in the shadows. Most of them are walking around among us, immersed in careers that nurture their psychological traits, and in some cases even reward them.
Here are the top ten jobs that attract sociopaths, according to author Kevin Dutton:
1. CEO
With the heartless greed and sadistic ambition displayed on Wall street since the 2008 financial collapse, it may come as no surprise that the first place on the list goes to the modern-age equivalent of a pharaoh. Capitalist positions of leadership offer power, autonomy, command, and status — a perfect battlefield for the ambitious and ruthless to compete. Where once pyramids littered the dessert in tribute to vain kings, we now have skyscrapers and corporate logos filling the clouds above.
more
http://mic.com/articles/44423/10-professions-that-attract-the-most-sociopaths#.fpx207lFJ
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jan 29, 2016 - 07:52pm PT
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That list has been around for a long time. As humor it's pretty good. As reality not so much except perhaps for #10.
The first time I saw it was from my wife who is, yes, a lawyer. She got a kick out of it.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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10 Professions That Attract the Most Sociopaths
Totally great article. I have been saying the same thing as the article for 15 years.
Cluster B types have a weak ego structure, and they heavily rely on external cues for their self worth, e.g., "I am a surgeon" (ergo, I must be a really great person and a success, which makes my ego feel good).
You can always tell highly-functioning, highly-successful borderline types when you meet, because they're all narcissistic as#@&%es.
Challenge someone who has a solid ego, and nothing happens except a discussion. Challenge a borderline type (who has a weak ego) and you'll suddenly find yourself facing a raging maniac. Like you've cornered a wild animal.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Where is your background on this, SLR? Professional, or?
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Professional, but none of this is intended to be professional advice, just philosophical discussions.
And I'm also a victim of cluster B type.
"I'm a survivor." :)
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Gotcha. Your view is pretty spot-on, from all that I've learned about this psychopathy.
I'm in 'survival' mode right now, myself.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Interesting article, Craig. I, too, would have put lawyers on that list, even though I like most of the lawyers I know. Still, lawyers remain an example of the law of comparative advantage that I teach as an economist (as opposed to as a lawyer).
Being a jerk is a disadvantage in virtually every profession, but it is less of a disadvantage as a lawyer than as, say, a therapist. Thus, the advantage of being a lawyer who is not a jerk is less than that of being a therapist who is not a jerk.
I suspect that lawyers form a fruitful source of business for many professions: for physicians, because we don't take good care of ourselves, for psychologists because we usually have personality disorders, for accountants because we pay enough taxes and make enough stupid financial decisions to make the employment of an accountant worthwhile, and clergy, because we know we're selling our souls and have sellers' remorse.
I also chuckled at seeing surgeons on this list. My best friend (other than my wife) is a radiologist, and he likes to joke that the best way to stump a surgeon is to ask him or her the identity of the three best surgeons in the world. They'll never be able to figure out the names of the other two.
John
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Therapists Confirm Trump's Narcissistic Personality Disorder
Concerned therapists break silence to warn the public
Posted Nov 13, 2015
“Remarkably narcissistic,” said developmental psychologist Howard Gardner, a professor at Harvard Graduate School of Education.
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“He’s so classic that I’m archiving video clips of him to use in workshops because there’s no better example of his characteristics,” said clinical psychologist George Simon, who conducts lectures and seminars on manipulative behavior. “Otherwise, I would have had to hire actors and write vignettes. He’s like a dream come true.”
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“He’s very easy to diagnose,” said psychotherapist Charlotte Prozan. “In the first debate, he talked over people and was domineering. He’ll do anything to demean others, like tell Carly Fiorina he doesn’t like her looks. ‘You’re fired!’ would certainly come under lack of empathy. And he wants to deport immigrants, but [two of] his wives have been immigrants.
“There is help available, but it doesn’t look like the help people are used to. It’s not insight-oriented psychotherapy, because narcissists already have insight. They’re aware; the problem is, they don’t care. They know how you’d like them to act; the problem is, they’ve got a different set of rules."
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Licensed clinical social worker Wendy Terrie Behary, the author of Disarming the Narcissist: Surviving and Thriving with the Self-Absorbed, said, “Narcissists are not necessarily liars, but they are notoriously uncomfortable with the truth." (The article notes that Trump positions himself as a possible savior to the economy despite the fact that four of his companies have declared bankruptcy.)
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“Textbook narcissistic personality disorder,” echoed clinical psychologist Ben Michaelis. “This man is known for his golf courses, but, with due respect, who does he think works on these golf courses? Mr. Trump’s bullying nature—taunting Senator John McCain for being captured in Vietnam, or saying Jeb Bush has “low energy”—is in keeping with the narcissistic profile.
"Regardless of how you feel about John McCain, the man served—and suffered. To degrade people is really part of a cluster-B personality disorder: it’s antisocial and shows a lack of remorse for other people. The way to make it O.K. to attack someone verbally, psychologically, or physically is to lower them. That’s what he’s doing.
“He’s applying for the greatest job in the land, the greatest task of which is to serve, but there’s nothing about the man that is service-oriented. He’s only serving himself.”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stop-walking-eggshells/201511/therapists-confirm-trumps-narcissistic-personality-disorder
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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I knew this NPD that was a walking talking resume with limited experience in the field he was supposedly an expert in.. He was the NPD poster child , pathological liar , attention whore, with an entitlement complex... anybody who would fall for the charade would usually end up with a knife in the back as soon as he got what he wanted...He knew everyone including the ficticious person i invented to test him for know it all syndrome...If he had any inkling that you doubted his abilities or were not buying into who he thought he was , he would explode and go into bully mode...
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dirtbag
climber
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Pharmabro: narcissist.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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The world owes him a living and he's entitled to the huge mark ups..
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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It's one thing to markup boob implants, booze, or limp-dick meds. It's another to kill people for money. But to that guy, he doesn't see the difference because there is none. He's the same as any most any modern CEO, just less polished and more of a dick.
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dirtbag
climber
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That guy is seriously overdue for an ass kicking.
I mean, just look at him, he wreaks of douchiness.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Add some more polish, teach him to hide the smirk and disdain and he'd be a good president.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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JEleazarian: Being a jerk is a disadvantage in virtually every profession, . . . .
Not exactly.
What’s a jerk? Are we all in agreement on that and on what matters at the end of the day?
Want to get something done? Want to get people to change? Want to create or form an organization that is needed to do really big things (send people to Mars, cure cancer, fight wars, etc.)?
The fact of the matter is, it seems, is that “jerks” make the world go round to any significant extent. They initiate “good things” and “bad things.” You can’t get one set without the other, it seems. They come as a pair. No amazing or great creation or achievement came with and from only “good behaviors.”
Of course we don’t much like any of these things. But that’s only because most of us live in a Pollyanna world where we expect or hope for an idealistic world of only good people doing only good things.
I suggest doing some reading here. I suggest two books by Jeffrey Pfeffer: (i) “Power” and (ii) “Leadership BS.” He’s one of the smartest and most honest guys I know in academia in my fields.
Wanna get something important done?
From: http://www.amazon.com/Leadership-BS-Fixing-Workplaces-Careers/dp/0062383167/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1454652217&sr=1-1&keywords=jeffrey+pfeffer
In Leadership BS, Jeffrey Pfeffer pulls back the curtain, showing how leadership really works and why so many leadership development efforts fail. In this forthright and persuasive critique, Pfeffer argues that much of the oft-repeated wisdom about leadership is based more on hope than reality, on wishes rather than data, on beliefs instead of science. In an age when transparency is considered a virtue, Pfeffer makes the case that strategic misrepresentation isn't as harmful as you think, that breached agreements are a part of business, that immodesty is frequently a path to success, and that relying on the magnanimity of your boss is a bad bet.
Sorry. Get friendly with Buddhist realism about the world.
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John M
climber
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Interesting thread. I agree to some extent that we bring these people into our lives because there is something we need to see in ourselves, but I also understand that these kinds of people play on our good intentions.
The fact of the matter is, it seems, is that “jerks” make the world go round to any significant extent. They initiate “good things” and “bad things.” You can’t get one set without the other, it seems. They come as a pair. No amazing or great creation or achievement came with and from only “good behaviors.”
I fully and completely disagree with this statement. I know plenty of strong leaders who were able to get things done without being a jerk. The only people who thought they were jerks were lazy people. But that doesn't automatically mean that they were jerks. That says more about the lazy person then the strong leader. I also have plenty of experience with jerks in power. I helped get one power freak of a jerk fired even though she was my boss. Are you a jerk if you fire someone for not doing their job?
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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My grandfather was a state senator in Wisconsin for 27 years.
When I was a little kid, I remember being with him in his office one afternoon, and observed him calling person after person in the Senate saying the same thing. “Hey, John, you know I just heard X. Is that true? What do you know about it?” After those calls, it occurred to me to ask if he had really heard that. (He kept winking at me when he was making the calls.) He said, “No, but it’s a way to start a conversation.”
When I got back from Vietnam in 1969, I said something had to be done about the war. It was wrong. I railed about it. He said, “yes, yes, yes . . . but do you know what’s going on with our prisons? That’s something that’s going to be big, and we need to act now.”
A few years later, my grandfather (“dzadza”) died after Parkinson’s disease. As we are Polish on that side of the family (Kendziorski is not much of an anglo name), after the funeral, we all ended up at his local corner tavern (the south side of Milwaukee had at least one on every corner it seemed). Sitting at the bar was me, my mother, and my grandmother, along with others to our left and right. We were throwing back boilermakers, and getting hammered. It was like a wake. For a couple of hours, people came to pay their respects to my grandmother (my “Baci” in Polish) and drink as is the custom. Every person said the same thing to my grandmother: “Oh, Netti, Casey was a wonderful man.” Blah blah blah. At one point in the procession, my Baci retorted, “Yeah, and he could be a real sonofabitch, too.” The entire bar broke into boisterous laughter because it was true.
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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I have been thinking about some of the negative personality types that I have encountered on various forums over the past 20 years or so. They have changed a lot over those years. There used to be simple trolls who were just feeding their rat by pushing buttons and offending people. Most forum users have learned to ignore that behavior and in response I think the same people may have learned new ways to feed. I didn't see that anybody had posted the link below but I found it interesting and relevant to some of the posters we see here on the taco today. Some people are merely annoyingly stupid but others are truly manipulative. Whatever, annoying people on the internet are best ignored.
It seems that narcissism is easy for people to recognize in others but impossible to recognize in themselves – much like ignorance is.
Anyway, I found this food for thought. If you read far enough along, there is a list of 21 traits.
http://n-continuum.blogspot.com/2014/01/21-signs-of-online-destructive.html
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sunshinedaydream
Trad climber
the big granite bubble
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Jul 18, 2017 - 11:53am PT
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Nut again, I sent you a message. There is a community of climbers out there that have experienced this kind of manipulative hell. Many are still in it, I received an just email from a woman in the Y Valley last week, whose is trying to get out safely from the manipulation, lies, gaslighting. When the veil comes off from these relationships, the reality of your manufactured life becomes so real, and scary. Often alienating the victim, while the narcissist is comforted and protected. Hope you are farther along in the recovery, I have some great resources if needed. Big Hug.
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Hubbard
climber
San Diego
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Jul 18, 2017 - 07:31pm PT
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Hey Nut, nothing personal here, just going to state the obvious in relation to the Korea threads; The North Korean dictator is just like your x wife, except he has nuclear weapons. This is why the world has problems. It's up to normal people like you to solve these problems. Maybe it is just better to run away fast. Sometimes there is nowhere to run. Sometimes you have to fight. Most people don't want to fight, but that does not change what the other person is doing. Fighting for democratic freedoms and the right to read whatever you want might be worth it. Fighting for the love of your children...worth it! The questions I have been raising are how to go about it. The whole advancement of humans is to have peaceful rule of law be respected internationally, domestically, and between spouses. No more caveman stuff. When respect for law fails, military force is the fallback, or losing. If everyone was wonderful there would be no need for police. Utopia is the dream. Reality is something different. It's all hard as nails. Never live in fear of being the hammer. What did that famous stonemaster climber do when he was run out fifty feet on the edge at Tahquitz? He reached for the hammer and sank a bolt. He didn't want to drill, but he knew that he didn't want to die just yet.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jul 18, 2017 - 08:49pm PT
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Nut's ex is phat with bad hair? Ewwww!
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Jul 18, 2017 - 09:06pm PT
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The North Korean dictator is just like your x wife, except he has nuclear weapons
;>)
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chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
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Jul 18, 2017 - 11:34pm PT
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Nutagain, I have a narcissist evil stepmother who has caused alot of hurt in my life. Its hardest on children who didnt make the choice to be abused by a narcissist. We have no way out of the situation except to leave behind the loved ones who are trapped in the dysfunction. What a pity. Narcissists always claim to be the victim and shed blame on the ones they prey upon. I don't understand their way of thinking. I guess the term pathological is appropriate. I think their dysfunction derives from their personal sense of powerlessness combined with a self centered ego driven personality . I also knew a woman with Münchausen syndrome, a related affliction. She poisined her husband to collect his life insurance but he didnt die. So she kept him doped up on trazadone and used him as her proxy to gain attention, sympathy and charity from others. She was a sexual deviant who screwed everything that moved and then manipulated her lovers by threatening to sick her 300 lb biker husband on them. He had a traumatic brain injury from the poisining and was vulnerable to her manipulation. She always claimed that she had been raped by the men she seduced. She would use oranges to bruise her face and claim she was beaten. She put catsup on white towels and cried miscarriage. She stole peoples prescriptions and put them in other peoples drinks. She liked to steal peoples car keys and then watch them struggle. She always had an "I told you so" attitude about the dramas that she created. All her children and family members and friends suffered terribly. To add a shield to her arsenal, she was a Mormon. She didnt really have faith. Just another smoke screen. I guess it was my own fault for being naive and gullible and weak that led me into her spiderweb. I think maybe my stepmother trained me to allow people like her to use me. These days I have learned to accept responsibility for my relationships and personal dramas. It is truly amazing the range of human behaviors. No fiction could ever come close to how crazy some people can be. I must have been crazy myself to be a part of it.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jul 19, 2017 - 08:41am PT
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^^^
confirmed sociopath
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c wilmot
climber
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Jul 19, 2017 - 08:47am PT
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A good example of a sociopath is Bill Clinton.
Of course that all depends on what your definition of is...is
It's telling of the intellect of many Americans that they still fall for his superficial charm
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thirsty
climber
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Jul 19, 2017 - 02:50pm PT
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Climbing with a person who has a Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) means you are always climbing in a group of three. You, them and their out-sized, but fragile ego. Just as you have to take into account your partner's needs and assess their capacities and experience, so too must you assess the state of the third member of the group – their ego – as you climb. It has to be treated as a separate entity. Sometimes your partner will have more resilience than their ego. Sometimes their ego is strong and you can call on it to bolster your partner so they can get through something difficult.
But be careful. Don't climb with people who have NPD problems unless you understand the disorder as well as your own vulnerabilities. If you are someone who has always wanted “close” friends but haven't really had many, you are vulnerable to manipulation. Etc...<read the literature>
That being said, people with NPD problems are real people. At their core they are just like everyone else and the big ego they need to maintain is a way of defending a deep weakness and insecurity. I have found that sometimes doing long scary routes with such people can bring out their more human side and allow them to relax the defense mechanism a little.
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