Armed Militia Takes Over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge HQ

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Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 2, 2016 - 08:48pm PT
Led by the soon to be incarcerated Ammon Bundy and other assorted nutcases who have inserted themselves into the Hammond affair in Burns Oregon.

Head cheerleader is none other than Pete Santilli, a real piece of work. The Burns Brigade will be mobilized, muster at Dennys, early dark thirty.

https://www.rt.com/usa/327762-armed-bundy-militia-oregon-ranchers/

10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jan 2, 2016 - 08:49pm PT
The Feds need to put a stop to this crap. Sorry, Ron.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Jan 2, 2016 - 08:50pm PT
Big duck hunt going down...
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 2, 2016 - 09:12pm PT
Jon: sorry but your link took my MSN browser into orbit.

Here's an ABC News link on the subject.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/peaceful-protest-oregon-wildlife-refuge-action-36061121

I think the Bundy-nuts will find all the publicity they seek this time around-------and I can hope that the Feds don't back down.
F

climber
away from the ground
Jan 2, 2016 - 09:13pm PT
The Redneck Spring perhaps?
John M

climber
Jan 2, 2016 - 09:17pm PT
shaking head.

They are in the middle of nowhere. Put a fence around them. let them out in 5 to 10 years. Don['t need to feed them, cloth them, or give them medical care. Cheaper then prison.
F

climber
away from the ground
Jan 2, 2016 - 09:21pm PT
Damn, John. That's actually a fantastic idea! I'd love to see that, rather than how I think it might play out. Just gonna have to to sit back and watch what happens to those ignorant hicks.... I hope it's not too ugly.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 2, 2016 - 09:33pm PT
I give them two days once power is cut off. -6 at 9 pm in Burns, by 5 am in the boonies it ought to be a toasty -15.

nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 2, 2016 - 09:34pm PT
Good stuff. These anti-american terrorists deserve everything coming their way.

f*#king POS's


Edit: Jon sets the over/under at 2 days. Seems reasonable.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 2, 2016 - 09:42pm PT
All schools in Harney County have been ordered closed

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2016/01/02/3735576/150-armed-militia-members-take-over-federal-building/
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 2, 2016 - 09:44pm PT
good idea. no clue what these christian terrorists will do next

and I can hope that the Feds don't back down.

They won't
John M

climber
Jan 2, 2016 - 09:48pm PT
first it was affluenza..

Now its milituenza..


over under 2 days? I'll take the over. These guys are true believers. They have a fireplace for warmth. This could last some time. After Waco the cops aren't going to want to go in their too fast.'

edit: ooh.. they have a tower.. they have the high ground. woot!

From the web..

http://cherylhill.net/firelookouts/2012/05/23/sodhouse-tower/


As with the P Ranch tower at the other end of the refuge, this tower is closed and the bottom set of stairs has been removed. It sits on a bluff with a pretty nice view. Right below is the headquarters for the wildlife refuge and beyond is Malheur Lake.



Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Jan 2, 2016 - 09:55pm PT
At one end of the spectrum is Burning Man...

... at the other this would be known as "Freezing Man"...
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 2, 2016 - 09:57pm PT

"I got this."
dirtbag

climber
Jan 2, 2016 - 10:08pm PT
What John says. Starve them out.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jan 2, 2016 - 10:13pm PT
They have a fireplace for warmth...and no trees to fuel it with. A lake for water...that's frozen.

No "fence them in and leave them", this is a widely used bird watching refuge. Why screw over the citizens?

No, you start a perimeter about 3 miles out and work inward. Cut utilities off, get drones up recording from every angle. APCs roll in with the "sound cannons" and water cannons, put rounds through all their truck tires and generators, teargas through the windows, then hose their asses down when they come out while death metal plays at 130dB. Over and done inside of a day. Then some long prison sentences, 20-life.

Meanwhile, be a good time to go snatch up Bundy senior down in Nevada with all his lunatic crew up there in Burns.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 2, 2016 - 11:05pm PT
So I gather the original conviction was arson for burning their own properties in 2001 and 2006? They both did time of 1 month for the dad and 1 year for the son. They were both released. Now... for some reason a judge has ordered them back to prison?

Not enough details but it sure sounds sketchy... Anyone have the details?

Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 2, 2016 - 11:20pm PT
They were tried and convicted and sentenced. The Feds argued for a mandatory 5 year term, judge thought that was too severe and sentenced them to a shorter term. Feds successfully appealed on the grounds that Federal sentencing was mandatory minimum 5 years. So back to jail they go.

The right wing nut jobs are trying to make this all about land rights but it is really about mandatory minimum sentencing. When it was black people getting screwed these same right wingers called it law and order, tough on crime, blah blah blah
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 3, 2016 - 05:24am PT
I like John M's original idea. A self-supporting prison has great virtue. In addition, if we keep them out of the headlines, they may starve for lack of what they really crave -- a platform for their fantasies.

John
Rock!...oopsie.

Trad climber
the pitch above you
Jan 3, 2016 - 05:41am PT
One redneck finger slip from a group Darwin Award for 2016.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jan 3, 2016 - 05:45am PT
Where's Ron when you need him?

We want info, man!
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 3, 2016 - 05:52am PT
Since the US Attorney's office felt it was appropriate to try the Hammond's under the Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act for a prescribed burn that overlapped onto 139 acres of public land scrub brush; maybe they will try the Bundy's under the Migratory Bird Treaty Act since they took over a waterfowl refuge headquarters.

Forget about the Bundy idiots. If you look into the Hammond case and find that it is anything other than Feds trying to push people off their land then I can only assume you believed that WACO was full of child molesters too.
Argon

climber
North Bay, CA
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:05am PT
It seems that many of us here have no problem with expanding the size of our federal government's footprint.

Check out this link:

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution/

Keep in mind that this is the same government agency that raided the Gibson guitar factory in Tennessee with its version of Seal Team Six.

You may not want to share a pew with the Bundy's at their church - but at least they won't kill you for apostasy.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:07am PT
A refresher on the Hammond convictions.

It was Arson for burning federal land, not their own, and they handed out printed match books that they would do it as a protest.

http://www.justice.gov/usao-or/pr/eastern-oregon-ranchers-convicted-arson-resentenced-five-years-prison

Jurors were told that Steven Hammond handed out “Strike Anywhere” matches with instructions that they be lit and dropped on the ground because they were going to “light up the whole country on fire.” One witness testified that he barely escaped the eight to ten foot high flames caused by the arson.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:18am PT
Lorenzo,

I gather you would have been comfortable rubbing Janet Reno's feet while she drove the tank into the nursery area at Waco then?
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:21am PT
The Congress shall have power to dispose of and make all needful rules and regulations respecting the territory or other property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to prejudice any claims of the United States, or of any particular state.

Section 4.

The United States shall guarantee to every state in this union a republican form of government, and shall protect each of them against invasion; and on application of the legislature, or of the executive (when the legislature cannot be convened) against domestic violence.
Article 4, sec.3&4 United States constitution.

Pesky constitution right wingers are alway quoting.

The most right wing court in history refused to even hear an appeal.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:25am PT
She likes it when you go easy on the bunions.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:27am PT
Oh goodie, somebody came to stand in for Ron and Rokjox.
Dude, you're right there in Idaho, shouldn't you be packing your toothbrush and heading on over to the front?
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:35am PT
We went over and shot some geese just off the Malhuer refuge yesterday. On some other private land that .gov has been eyeballing for quite a while as well. Looking back I'm surprised how we didn't get arrested under the terrorist act also.

I don't care to shoot sky carp too much but I thought I would check out the scene. Most of Burns would just as soon see the Bundy's go home, but then again they know the government has been going after the Hammond ranch since before the BLM had pastel patches so they don't get the big deal.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:40am PT
The only part of the constitution this POS's give a sh#t about is the second amendment. the rest is toilet paper.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:42am PT
We went over and shot some geese just off the Malhuer refuge yesterday. On some other private land that .gov has been eyeballing for quite a while as well. Looking back I'm surprised how we didn't get arrested under the terrorist act also.

If they were dusky Canada geese you deserve a cell next to the one reserved for the arsonists.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:50am PT
Actually, the Dusky Geese have a more bitter taste that my wife finds pleasing.

The hard part is disabling the radio collars so we lay off of them now.



Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:55am PT
Back to the Hammond case, since Lorenzo obviously doesn't own a map, the Feds have been after their ranch for decades to annex the wildlife refuge. A quick review into the history tells you all you need to know.

Unfortunately, the message of .gov overbearance is carried by idiots with the last name of Bundy.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:58am PT
And a quick review of Bundy's and their militia sub men tells us all we need to know.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:12am PT
I'm guessing they have a tunnel connected to Walmart that was left over from Jade Helm 15. They could have a lifetime supply of Slim Jim's.
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:23am PT
As others have said, the problem here is government overreach, with a capitol O, plus double standard.

How many prescribed burns by USFS and BLM have gotten out of control, on public land?

Have any fire fighters or land managers been charged or gone to jail, much less on terrorism charges?

Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:28am PT
I think it's worthwhile to copy & paste to this thread the link Lorenzo shows. Note: The convection was for arson on Federal lands. http://www.justice.gov/usao-or/pr/eastern-oregon-ranchers-convicted-arson-resentenced-five-years-prison


Department of Justice

U.S. Attorney’s Office

District of Oregon

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Wednesday, October 7, 2015

Eastern Oregon Ranchers Convicted of Arson Resentenced to Five Years in Prison

EUGENE, Ore. – Dwight Lincoln Hammond, Jr., 73, and his son, Steven Dwight Hammond, 46, both residents of Diamond, Oregon in Harney County, were sentenced to five years in prison by Chief U.S. District Judge Ann Aiken for arsons they committed on federal lands.

A jury sitting in Pendleton, Oregon found the Hammonds guilty of the arsons after a two-week trial in June 2012. The trial involved allegations that the Hammonds, owners of Hammond Ranches, Inc., ignited a series of fires on lands managed by the U.S. Bureau of Land Management (BLM), on which the Hammonds had grazing rights leased to them for their cattle operation.

The jury convicted both of the Hammonds of using fire to destroy federal property for a 2001 arson known as the Hardie-Hammond Fire, located in the Steens Mountain Cooperative Management and Protection Area. Witnesses at trial, including a relative of the Hammonds, testified the arson occurred shortly after Steven Hammond and his hunting party illegally slaughtered several deer on BLM property. Jurors were told that Steven Hammond handed out “Strike Anywhere” matches with instructions that they be lit and dropped on the ground because they were going to “light up the whole country on fire.” One witness testified that he barely escaped the eight to ten foot high flames caused by the arson. The fire consumed 139 acres of public land and destroyed all evidence of the game violations. After committing the arson, Steven Hammond called the BLM office in Burns, Oregon and claimed the fire was started on Hammond property to burn off invasive species and had inadvertently burned onto public lands. Dwight and Steven Hammond told one of their relatives to keep his mouth shut and that nobody needed to know about the fire.

The jury also convicted Steven Hammond of using fire to destroy federal property regarding a 2006 arson known as the Krumbo Butte Fire located in the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge and Steen Mountain Cooperative Management and Protection Area. An August lightning storm started numerous fires and a burn ban was in effect while BLM firefighters fought those fires. Despite the ban, without permission or notification to BLM, Steven Hammond started several “back fires” in an attempt save the ranch’s winter feed. The fires burned onto public land and were seen by BLM firefighters camped nearby. The firefighters took steps to ensure their safety and reported the arsons.

By law, arson on federal land carries a five-year mandatory minimum sentence. When the Hammonds were originally sentenced, they argued that the five-year mandatory minimum terms were unconstitutional and the trial court agreed and imposed sentences well below what the law required based upon the jury’s verdicts. The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, however, upheld the federal law, reasoning that “given the seriousness of arson, a five-year sentence is not grossly disproportionate to the offense.” The court vacated the original, unlawful sentences and ordered that the Hammonds be resentenced “in compliance with the law.” In March 2015, the Supreme Court rejected the Hammonds’ petitions for certiorari. Today, Chief Judge Aiken imposed five year prison terms on each of the Hammonds, with credit for time they already served.

“We all know the devastating effects that are caused by wildfires. Fires intentionally and illegally set on public lands, even those in a remote area, threaten property and residents and endanger firefighters called to battle the blaze” stated Acting U.S. Attorney Billy Williams.

“Congress sought to ensure that anyone who maliciously damages United States’ property by fire will serve at least 5 years in prison. These sentences are intended to be long enough to deter those like the Hammonds who disregard the law and place fire fighters and others in jeopardy.”

Assistant U.S. Attorneys Frank R Papagni, Jr., AnneMarie Sgarlata and Kelly Zusman handled the prosecution of this case.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:40am PT
How many prescribed burns by USFS and BLM have gotten out of control, on public land?

The second "prescribed burn" was started during a burn ban, which is was started the court proceedings in the first place. They endanger firefighters.

I thought conservatives were against anarchy, or is that only when it is done by the left and people they don't like?
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:54am PT
The detail that's missing from the accounts above (or at least I didn't see in skimming)

They set the fire to cover up a crime of illegally harvesting deer without tags or license. Set a fire to cover a crime, and that's arson. They set the fire to cover up the evidence, and were convicted. The crime carried a mandatory minimum sentence of 5 years. Judge sentenced to less than 2 yrs, prosecuters appealed, and the appropriate sentence was applied.

Their own relative flipped and testified against them.

There is nothing controversial in what happened to these assclowns whatsoever. If you disagree with mandatory minimums (and I do, personally), fine. But that gets addressed through the legislative process, and clemency/pardons. Not through right wing nut job, Timothy McVeigh style domestic terrorism.

WBraun

climber
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:55am PT
Armed finger waging lip service do nothing stooportopo crackpots sounding off on their board again ....
Argon

climber
North Bay, CA
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:56am PT
"I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical."

Thomas Jefferson
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:58am PT

Oh goodie, somebody came to stand in for Ron and Rokjox.
Dude, you're right there in Idaho, shouldn't you be packing your toothbrush and heading on over to the front?

Most militia types don't need tooth brushes.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 3, 2016 - 08:09am PT
They were tried and convicted and sentenced. The Feds argued for a mandatory 5 year term, judge thought that was too severe and sentenced them to a shorter term. Feds successfully appealed on the grounds that Federal sentencing was mandatory minimum 5 years. So back to jail they go.

The right wing nut jobs are trying to make this all about land rights but it is really about mandatory minimum sentencing. When it was black people getting screwed these same right wingers called it law and order, tough on crime, blah blah blah

For the record, the reason they argued (successfully) for the 5 year term was due to the statue used in the original case - Anti-Terrorism Act.

So, if you feel comfortable with the prospect of .gov sentencing you to 5 years as a terrorist for accidentally pulling a flake off your favorite J-Tree route then, by all means, carry on.
Argon

climber
North Bay, CA
Jan 3, 2016 - 08:14am PT
"Most militia types don't need toothbrushes."

Neither does ISIS:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QOf5Vv73u1c
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 3, 2016 - 08:14am PT
Anti-terror act not invoked. They would be incarcerated a lot longer if that were true.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 3, 2016 - 08:16am PT
i love quoting Jefferson. He's like quoting the bible.you can find anything you want.


Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 3, 2016 - 08:20am PT
Anti-terror act not invoked. They would be incarcerated a lot longer if that were true.

The burns brothers would fit the definition of a terrorist act. Blame Bush. He got the patriot act passed.

Section 802 of the USA PATRIOT Act (Pub. L. No. 107-52) expanded the definition of terrorism to cover ""domestic,"" as opposed to international, terrorism. A person engages in domestic terrorism if they do an act ""dangerous to human life"" that is a violation of the criminal laws of a state or the United States, if the act appears to be intended to: (i) intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination or kidnapping. Additionally, the acts have to occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States and if they do not, may be regarded as international terrorism.
couchmaster

climber
Jan 3, 2016 - 08:22am PT

Hmmm, I don't support a bunch of ignorant armed people taking over a federal property, and hadn't heard the "slaughtered deer charge" before, but if anyone is interested this is the local version of events printed in the big city newspaper 300 miles away.

" By Les Zaitz | The Oregonian/OregonLive


on December 31, 2015 at 5:15 AM, updated December 31, 2015 at 5:38 PM
Showdown in Burns

BURNS – Rancher Dwight Hammond Jr. paused while loading cattle one recent day to listen to the fundraising pitch.

Another rancher was selling raffle tickets, raising money for local scholarships while working cattle southeast of town.

Hammond drew out his wallet and pulled out the only currency he had – a $100 bill. He bought five tickets, never asking for change.

Hammond has reached for his wallet a lot in this country. He and his ranch family have supported virtually every charitable activity there is around Harney County. They buy youngsters' animals at 4H sales. They host barbecues. They support the local senior center.

But now Hammond, 73, won't be a fixture in the community much longer. He's headed back to federal prison to serve nearly five years for arson. He will be joined by one of his sons, Steve, 46, who faces up to four years.

Their arrival in prison, scheduled for Monday, won't quiet the controversy that has swirled around their case for years.

The men were convicted of arson, but under a provision of an expansive federal law punishing terrorism. They each served prison terms that the sentencing judge thought just, only to be told by appellate judges they had to go back to serve longer.

Their case heightened debate about how the federal government runs its lands. The United States of America holds deed to three-fourths of Harney County. Ranching done for a century and more is under pressure from environmentalists, recreationalists, and hunters.

Across the country, there is deepened concern about how authorities apply justice. And the issue of how to use federal land affects anyone who has been to a national forest or a federal wildlife refuge.

The plight of the Hammonds has become a rallying call for one militia and patriot group after another. Men who see tyranny in federal acts are standing for the two men, though the Hammonds have said through their lawyers they want no part of the militancy.

The Hammonds, who built a solid reputation and a prosperous ranching outfit in Oregon's most remote corner over the past 50 years, are keeping quiet. They declined an interview request and didn't answer written questions about their ranching, their crimes, and their new protectors.

Instead, just before Christmas, they issued a family statement:

"Our family appreciates the support of our local community. We have lived here, raised our families here, invested our time here, and grown our ranching business here because of the shared values of community, land stewardship, and family. We hope to see those values continue for many generations to come."

The Hammonds

Dwight Hammond was about 22 when he moved to the Diamond Valley, a remote range where cattle baron Pete French once held sway. Hammond and his wife Susan started Hammond Ranches Inc., beginning with about 7,000 acres.

Today, Hammond Ranches owns about 12,000 acres in the Diamond-Frenchglen area. They use this ground to run cattle during the winter. Until two years ago used 26,420 acres of land belonging to the U.S. Bureau of Land Management for summer grazing.

Over the years, Hammond built a side business trucking livestock while his youngest son, Steve, helped run the ranch.

Together, they and their wives became civic anchors, according to letters later submitted to federal court. They served on school boards and nonprofit boards. They were active in industry groups, with Steve Hammond once serving as president of the Harney County Farm Bureau.

The elements that ultimately led the Hammond men to prison were fire and federal land.

Fire is a tool on the high plateau of eastern Oregon, used to burn invasive species that crowd out native grass and other plants. But it is also a threat. Recent wildfires have scorched hundreds of thousands of acres in this territory, putting the ground off limits for grazing. Cattle have been killed in the runaway blazes, and lives endangered.

In 1999, Dwight Hammond got a stern letter from the local manager for the federal land bureau saying that Steve Hammond had set a fire that spread to bureau ground. The letter said Steve told officials in a subsequent meeting that he "did not believe there was any way to control fire behavior or where it would burn, and that he did not take any action to prevent the fire from burning."

It wasn't the family's first run-in with federal authorities. Five years earlier, Dwight Hammond had been arrested but not prosecuted in a dispute over access to water with managers of the huge Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, one of the nation's premier stops for migratory birds. Heavy equipment from the Hammond ranch obstructed a crew building a fence to keep cattle out.

And in 1999, Steve Hammond confronted hunters on land bureau property near his ranch. The hunters said the next day "he fired several shots from his firearm that the hunting party heard about, but he said he was shooting at rabbits," Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Papagni Jr. said in court recently. Hammond was convicted later of interfering with use of public land.

An attorney for Steve Hammond said in a court filing that his actions "arose out of his belief that there was something wrong with a system that authorized commercial hunting of wildlife that temporarily wandered onto barren public land from private land lush with forage."

In the case of the 1999 fire on bureau land, the federal manager left off by warning the family not to let it happen again.

But lighting public rangeland on fire is exactly what federal prosecutors say the Hammonds proceeded to do.

The fires

The first fire came in 2001: a simple prescribed burn, intended to take out invasive juniper, by Steve and Dwight Hammond's account.

But federal prosecutors said the men's real motive for starting the blaze, which consumed 139 acres and forestalled grazing for two seasons, was to cover up evidence of an illegal slaughter of deer. The government presented evidence that Steven Hammond called an emergency dispatcher to ask if it was OK to burn -- roughly two hours after they already lit the fire. His attorney said in court that Hammond called the land bureau beforehand.

The government acknowledged that the next fire, in 2006, was intended as a defensive move. Steve Hammond set backfires to keep a lightning-caused fire from burning onto the Hammonds' ranch and hitting their winter feed.

But the government said Steve Hammond lit up on the flanks of a butte, despite a countywide burn ban and the knowledge that young part-time firefighters were camped up higher. Their crew boss spotted the fires, which were set at night, and moved the crew.

How prosecutors pursued the ensuing criminal case over the two fires is what bothers Hammond supporters.

When the men were indicted in 2010 on federal arson charges, they faced sentencing under the federal Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996. Some Hammond backers and a host of recent social media posts translated that to mean the Hammonds were treated as terrorists.

"When you starting bringing in the terrorism act for God-fearing livestock producers in eastern Oregon, something is wrong," said Barry Bushue, a Multnomah County berry farmer and president of the Oregon Farm Bureau.

Federal prosecutors say they did no such thing.

"At no time have I ever called these two men terrorists. Never," Papagni, the federal prosecutor, said in court last October. "They committed arson."

But the five-year sentence mandated by terrorism law also concerned people. Among the critics: the federal judge who presided over the Hammonds' trial in Pendleton.

U.S. District Judge Michael Hogan said at the men's original sentencing in 2012 that such a term would be unconstitutional as cruel and unusual punishment.

"It would be a sentence which would shock the conscience," Hogan said before sentencing Dwight to three months and Steve to one year.

The men served their time and went home to raise cattle. But their case, it turned out, was far from settled.

Amanda Marshall, then U.S. attorney for Oregon, said she recommended the government challenge Hogan's sentence as illegal.

"If the government stands by and doesn't pursue the statutorily mandated sentence in this case, what kind of precedent does that set?" Marshall asked. Hogan, she said, imposed "an unlawful sentence."

Papagni, the federal prosecutor, said in court last fall that "the government did what we are supposed to do when someone doesn't follow the law, be it a judge or be it two ranchers in eastern Oregon."

The solicitor general at the U.S. Justice Department authorized a rare appeal of an Oregon judge's order.

The appeals court sided with the prosecution, and the Hammonds trooped to federal court last October to face a second sentencing.

Family and supporters filled the Eugene courtroom and U.S. Chief District Judge Ann Aiken gave the two convicted ranchers a chance to speak.

"I have nothing to say," Steve Hammond said.

"I have got nothing to say," Dwight Hammond said.

"Really?" the judge asked. "That's so unusual."

She sentenced them to prison to finish five-year terms but left them free until after the holidays.

The punishment

The Hammonds' pending return trip to prison deeply troubles ranchers and others.

"There's nobody in history who has gone to federal prison for burning a few acres of public property," said Melodi Molt, a Harney County rancher and former president of Oregon CattleWomen. "It's not right."

The Oregon Farm Bureau said the second prison term is "gross government overreach and the public should be outraged."

And then there is what some locals see as a government land grab.

The Hammonds in late 2014 agreed to pay the federal government $400,000 to settle a lawsuit seeking to force them to pay more than a $1 million in costs for fighting fires they set. The Hammonds paid $200,000 right away and paid the rest Thursday.

The settlement also required the Hammonds to give the land bureau first chance at buying a particular ranch parcel adjacent to public land if they intended to sell. For some, this was evidence that the government all along was after the Hammond ground to add to its Steens Mountain holdings.

"One thing that upsets cattle people is that provision," said Bob Skinner, a Jordan Valley rancher representing the Oregon Cattlemen's Association. But federal attorneys said the land provision was inserted in case the Hammonds felt they had to sell ranchland to pay the settlement. The Hammonds apparently won't face that prospect because they intend to pay the balance.

As the men pack for prison, the family faces challenges to keep the cattle business going.

The federal land bureau last year decided not to renew grazing permits because of the criminal convictions. A Boise lawyer appealing the decision said the loss will strain the ranch.

Molt said ranchers are ready to support the Hammond outfit.

"All they have to do is call on community members if they need help," said Molt.

But at this point only President Obama can spare the Hammonds from serving their full sentence. A pardon isn't expected, and clemency takes years to process.

Bushue, the farm bureau president, noted Obama earlier this year commuted sentences for drug offenders.

"I hope the president looks as kindly on community members as he does with drug offenders," Bushue said.

Meanwhile, the long federal case has revealed friction within the Hammond family, and it's cast light on a lesser-known conflict between the authorities and the Hammonds.

A key witness for the government's arson case was a family member who was a teenager at the time of the 2001 fire. The Oregonian/OregonLive is not naming him because some material presented in court, concerning his experiences with the Hammonds, was gathered while he was a minor.

The young man testified how he and his relatives started the blaze. He said in court that Steve Hammond gave him a box of matches on a September morning and told him to "light up the whole country on fire." He testified that his relatives told him later that day to keep quiet about what happened.

In October, prosecutors told a judge the young man had a reason he didn't talk about the arson for eight years.

According to a court document filed by prosecutors in the arson case, the government's witness told federal agents "he feared when Steven Hammond learned he had talked to police, that Steven would come to his front door and kill him."

According to police reports filed as part of the Hammonds' second sentencing, the boy previously had accused Steve Hammond of physical abuse when he was 16 and living with Dwight and Susan Hammond.

He said the Hammonds disapproved that he'd used a paperclip to carve two initials in his chest, according to a Harney County sheriff's deputy who interviewed the boy. The teenager told the investigator "Steve used a very coarse sand paper to sand off the initials," the deputy's report said. The teen said Dwight Hammond left the room but that Susan Hammond stayed, telling him to clean up afterward and "not to have a pity party," the report said.

Steve Hammond was charged with criminal mistreatment, but a diversion agreement got the charge dismissed. He had to take anger management classes, perform 40 hours of community service, and stay away from his nephew.

Dwight Hammond explained it was "decided by the family" to sand off the initials, the investigating deputy wrote. None of the Hammonds would say who did the sanding, the investigator's report said.

Steve Hammond did make one thing clear during their three-hour interview, the investigator wrote, telling the deputy "he did not agree with the government getting involved in family matters."
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Jan 3, 2016 - 08:31am PT
If people are going to generalize about Government overreach, then generalizations about rancher's use of public lands is fair game.

Because ranchers lease a plot of OUR land, they think they have the right to turn it into a private hunting preserve. They often alow local law enforcement and elected officials to hunt on that land to gain favor. They tend to think they are the administrators of that land and should not have to pay to use it. They often kill Beaver, Coyotes and Deer as pest and competitors to their stock. They see well intentioned forest workers, biologists, and land managers as big government agents, treading on their rights and use intimidation to keep them at bay. I've seen some of this first hand.

How's that for generalizations?
dirtbag

climber
Jan 3, 2016 - 08:52am PT
Interesting article, Couchmaster.
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 3, 2016 - 08:59am PT
The last few paragraphs were particularly illuminating. He complains about the gov interfering in a family mutilation.
overwatch

climber
Jan 3, 2016 - 09:43am PT
Packing for prison?
TWP

Trad climber
Mancos, CO & Bend, OR
Jan 3, 2016 - 10:10am PT
Supertopo threads can become incredible in variant ways:

1. Incredible crackpot views get expressed

BUT ALSO

2. Incredibly deep background info of apparently reliable nature emerges that goes further than the general media coverage of an event.

Just have to separate the wheat from the shaff.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 3, 2016 - 10:31am PT
Them boys jess got a wee bit too big fer their britches. Maybe they'll lose some weight in
the Big House.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Jan 3, 2016 - 10:34am PT
Quick, gather up the women and children to walk amongst them for protection.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 3, 2016 - 12:25pm PT
American Terrorists, aka Yallqaeda
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jan 3, 2016 - 12:49pm PT
These clowns are antagonizing the wrong people, armed Federal agents. If these guys start brandishing/aiming weapons towards the Feds, it's all over.

The Feds need to make an example of these types. Wrong way to get things done.
overwatch

climber
Jan 3, 2016 - 01:05pm PT
you mean the same feds that let them get away with it the first time?

why wouldn't they try it again it worked once
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 3, 2016 - 01:06pm PT
I disagree, the feds are ignoring them, in fact they are letting them come and go. This will end with little more than a whimper. The morons will end up looking silly. I would not rule out eventual arrests, but they will ley the clowns have their fun just like the occupy crowd and the black lives people did
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Jan 3, 2016 - 01:10pm PT
The Feds proved once and for all at Gettysburg who really rules the roost. The Mafia thought they could be top dogs, but where are they now? When push comes to shove, the US Gov't has the US Army. This incident does reveal some of the forces leading toward a possible breakup of the USA sometime in the future. Texas and Alaska, possibly Idaho, secede from the Union? Go check out what Senator John C. Calhoun has to say on the subject.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 3, 2016 - 01:19pm PT
Haha. Great.

We get Thomas Jefferson and John C Calhoun I one thread.

Calhoun was also against provisions of the Land Act of 1784, which was passed by Congrress and had the following provisions.

The Ordinance of 1784 (enacted April 23, 1784) called for the land in the recently created United States of America west of the Appalachian Mountains, north of the Ohio River and east of the Mississippi River to be divided into separate states.

It was adopted by the United States Congress of the Confederation under the Articles of Confederation.


The new states shall remain forever a part of the United States of America.
They shall bear the same relation to the confederation as the original states.
They shall pay their apportionment of the federal debts.
They shall in their governments uphold republican forms.
After the year 1800 there shall be neither slavery nor involuntary servitude in any of them.

Thomas Jefferson was the principal author. It eventually was extended westward with the Louisiana purchase and is the basis for the formation of the BLM.

10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jan 3, 2016 - 01:19pm PT
I disagree, the feds are ignoring them, in fact they are letting them come and go. This will end with little more than a whimper. The morons will end up looking silly. I would not rule out eventual arrests, but they will ley the clowns have their fun just like the occupy crowd and the black lives people did{/quote]

agreed



The Feds proved once and for all at Gettysburg who really rules the roost. The Mafia thought they could be top dogs, but where are they now? When push comes to shove, the US Gov't has the US Army. This incident does reveal some of the forces leading toward a possible breakup of the USA sometime in the future. Texas and Alaska, possibly Idaho, secede from the Union? Go check out what Senator John C. Calhoun has to say on the subject.

I don't know about Alaska, or Idaho seceding, but we can only hope that texass does.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 3, 2016 - 01:21pm PT
they should be out-occupied by the restofus burning man style smothering their protest with a stinking starvation crisis

A prescription burn?
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 3, 2016 - 01:23pm PT
Let me see here. - OK


Gives the appearance of an all-white enclave.




BTW, I had no trouble accessing any of the links.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Jan 3, 2016 - 01:31pm PT
A state can not cede from the nation without the permission from every other state.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jan 3, 2016 - 01:40pm PT
These guys are in trouble for lighting fires ... in a town called "Burns."
mooser

Trad climber
seattle
Jan 3, 2016 - 01:43pm PT
I'm a fan of starving idiocy of oxygen. If CNN, Fox, etc., would just ignore them, they'd eventually lose steam. Knuckleheads...
MikeMc

Social climber
Jan 3, 2016 - 01:50pm PT
Yallqaeda

Brilliant!

Perhaps the most annoying part is that very few, if any, locals are a part of this nonsense. I hope the locals turn their backs on these fools, and choose not to serve/sell them anything. Turn off the power, block the entrance/exits, and let them see what cold and hunger feel like.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 3, 2016 - 02:28pm PT
Yallqueda for the best word yet!!

Should be Y'allqueda.

I'm stealing it!!
overwatch

climber
Jan 3, 2016 - 03:12pm PT
that is good. who came up with that? I must have missed it
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 3, 2016 - 03:38pm PT
It is interesting that Federal law enforcers never seem to "go all in fear for their lives" like non-feds and civilians.

Take for example, the FBI. They just do the killing, investigate it themselvers, hold themselves faultless and get back to work.

“The F.B.I. takes very seriously any shooting incidents involving our agents, and as such we have an effective, time-tested process for addressing them internally,” a bureau spokesman said.

... from 1993 to early 2011, F.B.I. agents fatally shot about 70 “subjects” and wounded about 80 others — and every one of those episodes was deemed justified, according to interviews and internal F.B.I. records obtained by The New York Times through a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit.
Alois

Trad climber
Idyllwild, California
Jan 3, 2016 - 04:09pm PT
"Militia"?

If they weren't white, you'd call them what they really are: armed terrorists
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 3, 2016 - 04:11pm PT
A state can not cede from the nation without the permission from every other state.

Not true, like so many of your posts. New Hampshire, for example, is one of several of the original states that joined the Union ONLY with the agreement that it could succeed at will, should it ever in its sole determination find the federal government to become oppressive and opposed to individual and state rights. It's constitution clearly specifies this fact, and that fact was the basis upon which it joined the Union.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/09/22/where-scotland-failed-could-new-hampshire-succeed/

"New Hampshire joined the union on condition that it remain a fully sovereign state free to break the tie with the United States if that link were no longer in its interest. Article 7 of the New Hampshire Constitution declares that “the people of this state have the sole and exclusive right of governing themselves as a free, sovereign, and independent State; and do, and forever hereafter shall, exercise and enjoy every power, jurisdiction, and right, pertaining thereto, which is not, or may not hereafter be, by them expressly delegated to the United States of America in congress assembled.” Banning secession would break this original agreement."

While I think that the goofballs in OR are taking entirely the wrong tack, their case represents a growing unrest in the US with unlimited federal power. And what is a free person to do? Where is a free person to go to escape the ubiquitous reach of the feds? There is no better country, yet this nation has become a flat-out JOKE compared to the LIMITED government principles upon which it was founded.

In this nation today, you LITERALLY do not own anything. You cannot.

Think about it. Everything is subject to unilateral seizure by the IRS, without cause, without trial, and without a presumption of innocence. With your bank accounts frozen, your credit cut off, your house closed and locked to you, and your car(s) seized, THEN you have to take up your case in a federal court and PROVE that the IRS was mistaken; meanwhile your assets de facto belong to the government. The fact that the IRS rarely exercises this sweeping power does not mean they do not have it.

Property taxes perpetually keep your property leased-back to you, and failure to pay those taxes will get you evicted from your own property. In Chicago, for example, people are paying as much in property taxes as their mortgages. Entire neighborhoods of retirees are being literally taxed out of the homes they worked their lives to own outright. But they don't really own them, because the city just evicts them for their inability to pay their exorbitant property taxes.

Income taxed keep us individually beholden to the feds for every tiny detail of our lives, and THIS is what it always was about: control. There are many alternate tax schemes (such as a federal sales tax) that would be easy to implement and can be designed to be progressive, fair, and generate even more revenue than the current income tax scheme does.

SS and Medicare are the biggest, sickest pyramid/Ponzi scheme ever designed, and, again, it was about federal control rather than "security." I, for one, will see FAR less money back from the scheme than I've "invested" into it, and that's in the best case, with me living an unusually long life. And the feds keep changing the rules, in effect violating contractual obligations they had with generations of "contributors." Furthermore, I was signed up from birth, which violates every principle of contractual relations!

It goes on an on. The feds are about CONTROL over INDIVIDUALS, and 25% of people in this nation now want their particular state to secceed! MANY of us are SICK to death of federal invasion of EVERY DETAIL of our lives! And what are we to do about it? Where can we go to simple "opt out" and having nothing more to do with it.

I would GIVE UP entirely on what SS and Medicare owe me, if I could just be FREE of this nightmare. I would go to ANY state that would secede from the feds.

And what's with calling the OR group "terrorists" and charging them as "terrorists"? Since when are mere arsonists "terrorists"?

That term is now bandied about with terrifying frequency, particularly when you consider that being called a "terrorist" effectively enables the feds to SIDESTEP typical legal processes!

Look, I'm not sympathetic with the goofballs' tactics or even basic cause. But I also have NO sympathy with the FEDS!
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jan 3, 2016 - 04:21pm PT
^^^^
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 3, 2016 - 04:57pm PT
The feds are likely trying to deal with this lightly. The weather up there is working for them, and they have certainly learned about unintended blowback from Ruby Ridge and Waco. It is pretty easy for things to go south when dealing with people seeking the fame of martyrdom.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 3, 2016 - 05:07pm PT
These members of Y'all Qaeda are trying to fight for yeehawd.
Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Jan 3, 2016 - 05:08pm PT
What a buncha effing retards.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Jan 3, 2016 - 05:10pm PT
What MB, you want to escape the government's all knowing, all controlling clutches. Shame on you for ignoring the programming.

Myself, I'm just hoping for a good old fashioned military coup typical of the third world which we are rapidly morphing to. Must be that wealth redistribution and population control we are paying the U.N. to promote.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 3, 2016 - 05:12pm PT

"New Hampshire joined the union on condition that it remain a fully sovereign state free to break the tie with the United States if that link were no longer in its interest. Article 7 of the New Hampshire Constitution declares that “the people of this state have the sole and exclusive right of governing themselves as a free, sovereign, and independent State; and do, and forever hereafter shall, exercise and enjoy every power, jurisdiction, and right, pertaining thereto, which is not, or may not hereafter be, by them expressly delegated to the United States of America in congress assembled.” Banning secession would break this original agreement."

Does the New Hampshire constitution take precedence over the US constitution?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jan 3, 2016 - 05:29pm PT
What if it turns out that the wildlife ends up being no worse off with these militia guys occupying the headquarters than it was when The Feds ran the place?

Maybe then we'd want to re-think the whole idea of government wildlife management.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 3, 2016 - 05:30pm PT

Jan 3, 2016 - 01:31pm PT
A state can not cede from the nation without the permission from every other state.


Actually the founding document, the articles of confederation and perpetual union, is an agreement between the states to form a perpetual union. The constitution didn't end that, and not all states had to agree to the constitution for it to go into effect.

There is no backing out until perpetuity expires.

The southern states tested the concept in the civil war. They lost.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Jan 3, 2016 - 05:31pm PT
Funny that after all the whining about tyranny the first thing they did was block public access to public land.

Are we getting a live feed from Ron???
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Jan 3, 2016 - 05:33pm PT
Property taxes perpetually keep your property leased-back to you, and failure to pay those taxes will get you evicted from your own property.

Your rant about the Feds loses its way right here; there are no Federal property taxes. Only the state and local governments you admire so much have property taxes.

And unless you can reference that written agreement, you're wrong about NH. Nothing in the NH constitution says what you claim, and even if it did, the Supremacy Clause of the US Constitution would render it void.

TE
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 3, 2016 - 05:34pm PT
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area

Jan 3, 2016 - 05:29pm PT
What if it turns out that the wildlife ends up being no worse off with these militia guys occupying the headquarters than it was when The Feds ran the place?

Maybe then we'd want to re-think the whole idea of government wildlife management.

The only way wildlife ends up being no worse off is if you get rid of domestic animals on range land.

Pretty sure the ranchers don't want that.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 3, 2016 - 05:38pm PT
New Hampshire constitution.

[Art.] 7. [State Sovereignty.] The people of this state have the sole and exclusive right of governing themselves as a free, sovereign, and independent state; and do, and forever hereafter shall, exercise and enjoy every power, jurisdiction, and right, pertaining thereto, which is not, or may not hereafter be, by them expressly delegated to the United States of America in congress assembled.

Pretty much what the constitution says.

They ratified it in June, 1784, then ratified the US constitution in 1788, wheupon they accepted the articles in the constitution.

Timeline is kinda important.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jan 3, 2016 - 05:40pm PT
^^^
Well certain wildlife is already better off. For instance, the Red Herring seems to be flourishing.

Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 3, 2016 - 05:43pm PT
Bulls are, too. They are leaving lots of evidence.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 3, 2016 - 05:51pm PT
I wonder what Y'allqueda would think if a few folks went up there to set a few hundred acres of "the people's" land on fire?

I watched Bundy's interview, and he kept going on about the people's land.

And hell, they're in the business of fighting for ground burners, so I should be all good with them.
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Jan 3, 2016 - 05:52pm PT
"Funny that after all the whining about tyranny the first thing they did was block public access to public land."

Hmmm. You mean like the Feds do across the west with gates on formerly open roads and such?

Can't drive on the King's roads or shoot the King's deer now can we?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 3, 2016 - 05:57pm PT
Your rant about the Feds loses its way right here; there are no Federal property taxes.

I know that. My rant was not strictly about the feds. My rant is about how radically this entire nation has changed in its fundamental perspectives and what the "new normal" has come to be.

Between the IRS (feds) and the state and local property taxes, it is literally impossible to truly OWN anything at this point. There is literally no PLACE a free person can just BE, secure in their property and liberty, as long as they are operating within their God-given negative rights.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Jan 3, 2016 - 05:57pm PT
The "FEDS" are not the enemy. They are fellow Americans. Your uncle, my cousin. Treat them with the respect they deserve. Your ugly language dehumanizes them.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:00pm PT
You own the roads, the airports, the infrastructure, the national park, etc.

That doesn't mean they are yours to do with as you please. It is all SHARED resources.



WHO'd a figured there were shared responsibilities. I think they call it civilization.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:03pm PT
Pretty much what the constitution says.

They ratified it in June, 1784, then ratified the US constitution in 1788, wheupon they accepted the articles in the constitution.

Timeline is kinda important.

Just ridiculous comments. "Timeline" does not imply that NH punted on what their constitutions says, and it is well-documented what their intention was in joining the Union. Comparing NH to the southern states is ridiculous, as NH guaranteed that they had the perpetual right to secede if necessary.

And the more pressing question is: What is a free person to do? Are we ALL slaves? MUST we participate in a form of government that we have come to reject due to its excesses and corruption. If we demure, what options do we have?

ANSWER the question! There are two choices you apparently accept: 1) Move to a different country; 2) BE enslaved to a government that you repudiate as having violated its founding legitimacy.

(1) is a non-starter for countless reasons. (2) means that you demand all "citizens" to be slaves.

I reject both "answers." States that have the legal right to secede CAN and even should do so. And the feds should just graciously LET such states go, thereby leaving space on planet Earth for FREE people to non-violently opt-out of the monolithic federal power that has consumed this nation.
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:05pm PT
"You own the roads, the airports, the infrastructure, the national park, etc."

The problem is the government has forgotten that. Bureaucrats think THEY own them.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:05pm PT
The "FEDS" are not the enemy. They are fellow Americans.

Flat-out lie.

The feds ARE the enemy. They have become EVERYTHING that both federalists and anti-federalists alike feared! They have repudiated every principle of our founding.

They are NOT "fellow Americans." The people running the feds are NOT Americans in any robust sense.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:07pm PT
Ya'llQaeda?

-or-

Vanilla ISIS?


Oh, and for the lunatic failed philosphy prof gurgling his bullshit above? GFYS, champ. I've given more to this nation that you ever will.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:08pm PT
madbolter1. Re your admitted rant statement?

There is literally no PLACE a free person can just BE, secure in their property and liberty, as long as they are operating within their God-given negative rights.

I believe taxes are one of the oldest human traditions, whether extracted in forced payment or forced labor. I think our being taxed does beat our being slaves as a method of supporting our infrastructure.

While your lament sounds great, only at the fringes of civilization have people ever been able to live without taxes.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:08pm PT
MB is correct in that, in principle, property taxes DO rent you your own property, but in theory the state gives you safer roads to drive "your" car that they rent you, and your county provides services for the "landowner" and "his" property that they rent to him.



In theory.



(join the Cato Institute)
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:10pm PT
The feds ARE the enemy.

Interesting. No doubt there are problems with the US government, but think about countries where there are no "feds." Which one of them would you like to live in?

zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:14pm PT
My rant is about how radically this entire nation has changed in its fundamental perspectives and what the "new normal" has come to be.

I'm curious as to your time frame here. When did the "new normal" commence in your estimation?
dirtbag

climber
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:15pm PT
Boohoo...mb is oppressed.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:15pm PT
"Timeline" does not imply that NH punted on what their constitutions says, and it is well-documented what their intention was in joining the Union. Comparing NH to the southern states is ridiculous, as NH guaranteed that they had the perpetual right to secede if necessary.

And the more pressing question is: What is a free person to do? Are we ALL slaves? MUST we participate in a form of government that we have come to reject due to its excesses and corruption. If we demure, what options do we have?

They ratified the entire document, including ALL the clauses. NH doesn't have any special terms in the constitution any other state doesn't have. Period.

I think what you call slavery is citizenship , with the rights AND THE DUTIES of a citizen, including the clauses that cede powers to the United States.

Among those, in article 4

Clause 2: Property Clause
The Congress shall have power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State..

" All needful rules" is even more inclusive that the precious second ammendment right wing nut cases go on about. Funny they never read that clause.

Your constitution says you have given the right to congress to set up rules and regulations, and it is your duty as a citizen to obey until you get the rules and regulations changed by congress.

Have at it.

Anarchy is not the answer.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:18pm PT
I vaguely recall a time when people didn't fear the gubmint, at least as long
as you weren't a commie pinko. But I guess that was when the BLM was being
nice to the ranchers.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:21pm PT
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/is-secession-legal/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_state_petitions_for_secession


[url="https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secession_in_the_United_States"]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secession_in_the_United_States[Italic Text/url]

Now I'm not happy about government overreach, but I don't expect to see anything but worse if the state took over. Sure, you'd own your property, but the need for cash at a state level would leave living, well, not worth living for most
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:21pm PT
Funny, I was pretty young, but I remember during the McCarthy era people feared the gummint...
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:24pm PT
Feds aren't real Americans? The enemy?

MB now you're talking weak sauce. I know hundreds of federal employees, and they're every bit robustly American as you are.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:27pm PT
It seems to me that folks that want to be let alone by the federal government should choose a line of work that doesn't require use of federal lands.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:28pm PT
Especially the ones who want free water from federal water projects.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:28pm PT
I vaguely recall a time when people didn't fear the gubmint, at least as long
as you weren't a commie pinko. But I guess that was when the BLM was being
nice to the ranchers.

I can vaguely remember a time when the government didn't expand to fill every gap and void that the citizenry didn't protect under threat of death to the bureaucrat.

Well, I've read about those times at least.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:41pm PT

I can vaguely remember a time when the government didn't expand to fill every gap and void that the citizenry didn't protect under threat of death to the bureaucrat.

Well, I've read about those times at least.

I vaguely remember a time when the citizenry chose to elect people who understood the process of governing and the citizenry went to the ballot box instead of reaching for a gun to threaten bureaucrats who were enforcing the laws elected officials passed.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:43pm PT
Ah the good old days. Harken back to when the tobacco industry had completely unfettered access to the American (and World) population without the nuisance interference of the government.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:47pm PT
There is literally no PLACE a free person can just BE, secure in their property and liberty, as long as they are operating within their God-given negative rights.

You do realize that any argument you make based on the existence of supernatural rights requires that you both prove the existence of a god, AND prove that he/she gave us those specific rights? Sh#t, never mind proof, I'll take marginally compelling circumstantial evidence for either.

At what point in the past do you believe the United States, or any large society was closest to the Libertarian perfection you yearn for? I guarantee I'll find more egregious invasions of personal security and liberty there than any current taxes or Federal regulations.

Government sucks, but it's better than the alternative.

TE
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:49pm PT
Lorenzo, you say everything I want to say, but so much better.

TE
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:53pm PT
Y'allqueda is classic...lmao.
These guys are nuts.

Madbolter1 does raise a couple of points on fed power and the perception that many have. This chart shows one thing, but these militia nuts are different and are not victims
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:53pm PT
I vaguely remember a time when the citizenry chose to elect people who understood the process of governing and the citizenry went to the ballot box instead of reaching for a gun to threaten bureaucrats who were enforcing the laws elected officials passed.

Was that before or after the bureaucrats bought the ballot box through public assistance programs? Just want to a get a sense of the time period you were reminiscing about.

Democracy doesn't equate to freedom.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 3, 2016 - 06:58pm PT
GFYS, champ. I've given more to this nation that you ever will.

Right back atcha, on both points.
MisterE

Gym climber
Small Town with a Big Back Yard
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:04pm PT
^^ Sheesh, MB1 (my favoite bike frame from them, BTW), this is the better quote anyway:

Ya'llQaeda?

-or-

Vanilla ISIS?

ROTFL!
WBraun

climber
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:05pm PT
Don't just love this guy saying; "I've given more to this nation that you ever will."

But what did he do ..... ????
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:07pm PT
but in theory the state gives you safer roads to drive "your" car that they rent you

I have NO problem with taxes, provided that they satisfy some basic principles:

1) I am purchasing a benefit to MYSELF with them. I agree to pay for police, fire-departments, schools, etc., as I enjoy a DIRECT benefit being part of the collective.

2) Robust ownership rights are preserved. This can be accomplished with tariffs and sales taxes. Income tax (at both the state and federal levels), and ALL forms of property tax (B&O taxes, etc.) set up a system whereby I am NOT in control of my own property or my own destiny.

I'm not proposing anarchy. And I'm not opposed to A federal government in principle. I'm opposed to the present federal government that has become EVERYTHING that our founders (on both sides of the "aisle" feared!).

I'm not opposed to working people IN the federal government. Those individuals are not the enemy! The people manipulating the strings behind the scenes ARE the enemy. THEY run the federal government.

And Americans that just keep voting status quo and an ever more invasive, all-powerful federal government are also the enemy. They are the enemy of their OWN freedom and of mine.

I've asked, and as yet heard NO answer: What is a FREE person to do?

I have negative rights NOT granted by ANY government, and ANY government that is in fact legitimate MUST recognize and uphold those rights.

I have a RIGHT to freedom, property (in a ROBUST sense), and equal protection under the law. NONE of these are actually recognized and upheld by our present federal government. So, what is a FREE person, endowed with rights, supposed to do? Just capitulate as a slave?

You sorry saps have NO idea how enslaved you really are. As long as you can drinks some beers while watching football, you think that it's all good.

Really, it's pathetic.
F

climber
away from the ground
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:11pm PT
Well, looks like you've got it all figured out AngryDriller. What are you going to do about it, other than rant on a climbers forum? Or shut up and figure out a way to live outside the system? My guess is the former, which only makes you part of the problem.
Lurkingtard

climber
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:15pm PT
Stoopid rednecks!!!





















atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:15pm PT
God given negative rights?

+1 for just making dumb sh#t up and pretending it means something.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:20pm PT
other than rant on a climbers forum?

Don't minimize the power of a good rant on an internationally-known "climbers'" forum.

Even dog-piled by the libtards that mostly own the taco stand, I'm happy to point out that we have GOOD alternatives to the present state of affairs. It is easy to legally limit federal power, even now. And in one election cycle the present surveillance-state, IRS gestapo threat, and income taxes as we have known them for many decades could be sweepingly overturned. Oh, and the "federal reserve" (that is neither) could have its stranglehold on our economy wrested back from them and returned to we the people. This is my hope, and I'll hold onto it until my dying day.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:22pm PT
+1 for just making dumb sh#t up and pretending it means something.

-100 for being so blindingly ignorant that you think I'm making it up.

Sheesh

Well, have fun guys, I've got things to do, some of which will be converted directly into income tax dollars for you to burn on your libtariness.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:22pm PT
Sorry Madbolter-

We're paying taxes for American exceptionalism, even if you live in a cave.

Part of the package is world domination, security, infrastructure, emergency support, rescue, education, health, welfare and so on.

Ya'llkeda apparently has a real problem with that whole fee/service concept, so perhaps we can draft an American Citizen, Opt-out clause with an unconditional waiver form.



Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:22pm PT
The militias are going to people showing videos of President Obama and Hillary Clinton talking trash in order to recruit more radical militants.

Maybe it's Clinton and Obama who need to check themselves, and quit throwing fuel on the fire.

rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:24pm PT
Really, it's pathetic.

I miss Cragman and his rhetoric of pathetic, but thanks for filling in to let us know where we stand. Maybe with enough words and enough surety we can convince ourselves that (other) humans are pathetic too :-)
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:27pm PT
Easy solution for the failed philosphy prof:

Go Galt, young man, go Galt!

I hear tell that Thiel guy, the dbag libertarian paypal dude was going to setup a floating barge-city in international waters for all you Ubermensch Glibertarian types to get yer Galt on.

What's the holdup? Why aren't you already out there with the "Seasteading" crew? BTW, good luck with the Somali pirates. I don't think they really give a sh#t about your "god given negative rights" or other sophist babble, and last I checked the Galt's Gulch Goobers didn't have any .50's mounted on their barge-c#m-city. Easy pickins for Sammy Somali.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:27pm PT
There is a point at which the judicial and political system no longer functions "for the people".

There is a tipping point somewhere and I consider it the duty of all citizens to work against and change the status quo.

Whether this is that time isn't for me to say, each person has their own breaking point. Some are past theirs, others seem to have an endless appetite for .gov intrusion.

But I am of the opinion that the government must be resisted lest it will consume all liberty and that is not acceptable to me.

Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:28pm PT
1) I am purchasing a benefit to MYSELF with them. I agree to pay for police, fire-departments, schools, etc., as I enjoy a DIRECT benefit being part of the collective.

Cool!

Gimme back all that money for F-22's, and Colorado dams, and the California water system, oh, I don't use those San Fransisco bridges...lets see.... That bridge to nowhere, the damn tunnel in Boston harbor, congess' plush dining hall, their health plan, I get nothing out of Air Force 1. Ain't no drone ever done me no good, the tanks they give Police forces seem silly. I want my own $600 hammer I paid for, ( must be really neat), I ain't never going to the godforsaken state of Alaska, which came out of US taxes. Let the damn dams on the Snake river rot away.

It's short notice, but I have a whole raft of crap I don't get direct benefit from, including the Hammond's irrigation the gummint paid for. The whole damn lake there is with my money. At least I bet I paid as much as they did.Come to think of it, the Louisiana purchase bought the land, too. All it's paying back is annoyance at this point.
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:29pm PT
Lively thread. Who is madbolter1? Does he live in New Hampshire? Does New Hampshire want to secede? Because all my friends and family would be awfully surprised about that?

Who is madbolter1? Does he hear voices, take meds, and so on? Can somebody go check on him? He sounds a bit unhinged, with a very loose grasp of how humans and civilizations organize and succeed.

His hate on the Feds fetish is especially weird. How does he think polio got cured? The Interstate highway system built? Does he know just exactly what the Federal Government's role in the creation of the Internet was? When he flushes the toilet, where the f*#k does he think the sh#t goes? Or does he use a two-holer on some 40 acre compound in North East Idaho?

Good luck, boys.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:30pm PT
Lorenzo - you forget Big Bertha in Seattle. (that might not make any sense as I spent the afternoon and evening getting drunk and telling lies - truths, really - with Tarbuster)

Edit: and watching football with him
F

climber
away from the ground
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:33pm PT
Don't minimize the power of a good rant on an internationally-known "climbers'" forum.

That got a really high quality snort out of me.
little Z

Trad climber
un cafetal en Naranjo
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:33pm PT
What if it turns out that the wildlife ends up being no worse off with these militia guys occupying the headquarters than it was when The Feds ran the place? Maybe then we'd want to re-think the whole idea of government wildlife management.

I think Escopeta, which means shotgun in Spanish, answers that question pretty clearly

Actually, the Dusky Geese have a more bitter taste that my wife finds pleasing. The hard part is disabling the radio collars so we lay off of them now.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:34pm PT

Lorenzo - you forget Big Bertha in Seattle.
Hell, I want back for nearly all of Seattle. Especially tax breaks for anything to do with the Sounders.

I'll chip in for lake Union. A friend has a houseboat there I stay at when I go there.
Risk

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:37pm PT
If I were to guess, “the authorities” will avoid any sort of confrontation with the small group protesting at the site. No one is apparently in danger as-is; so, doing nothing is probably the safest thing for everybody right now. I hope the occupied site gets sealed off so other areas of the refuge are accessible for Americans to use and enjoy as a refuge.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:39pm PT
Easy solution for the failed philosphy prof

That one I'll come back on to respond to.

You've said it twice. Now sustain it.

"Failed"? In what sense? Explain. Oh, and spell correctly, if you can, in your attempted response.
MikeMc

Social climber
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:41pm PT
Man this post blew up. Looks like a couple of people found the Geritol.

So much entertain
F

climber
away from the ground
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:42pm PT
Can you keep it on the off topic please?

Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:44pm PT
That one I'll come back on to respond to.

Wall of text that nobody will read coming in 5...4...3...2...

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:46pm PT
But I am of the opinion that the government must be resisted lest it will consume all liberty and that is not acceptable to me.

I think you and MB agree on this point. I think we all should...
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:46pm PT
Nah. I have a special hatred for low-brow defamation, especially from an anonymous dick weed with El Cap up his a55.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:47pm PT
God given negative rights?

Hahaha... You sound like a real pit bull in small claims court.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:47pm PT
Wall of text that nobody will read coming in 5...4...3...2...

No, just calling you out for the anonymous blow-hard that you are.

You made a claim. It's defamatory. Defend it or retract it.

Simple.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:49pm PT
Hahaha...

You sound like a guy who is too ignorant to recognize how ignorant he is.

I'm taking Mark Twain's advice as soon as I settle up with El Cap up His A55: "Don't argue with stupid people. They'll drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."
MikeMc

Social climber
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:51pm PT
It's not a party until this guy shows up...

madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 3, 2016 - 07:59pm PT
Okay, so apparently El Cap up his A55 has punted. Typical cheap-shot, drive-by shooting "argumentation" that is too typical here.

I sent you a PM, El Cap up your A55. Since you're too cowardly to ante up here where you started the sh|t, we'll take it offline.

I've learned that it is NEVER good to just let defamation slide.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Jan 3, 2016 - 08:00pm PT
Back on topic:

The label of "Terrorism" gets put on all sorts of stuff and people we don't like. An Iraqi or Afghan shooting an invading US soldier is not a terrorist. He's possibly not even a bad guy.

US citizens using force or the threat of force to coerce the government, that's terrorism. We should deal with it the same way Bundy would insist we deal with a bunch of gun-toting koran-wielding citizens insisting that their imaginary god-given right to impose sharia-law was enshrined in the 1st amendment.

I hope the new AG does a better job than the last one. Holder's failure to prosecute after Bunkerville would lead a conspiracy-skeptic like me to believe there may have been a lot more going on than we know.

TE
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jan 3, 2016 - 08:00pm PT
Sweet action, "madbolter" threats via email:


I'm not playing with this. You've made a defamatory claim,
twice, in a public forum. Either publicly retract it or
prepare to answer for it.

If the best you can do by way of "argument" is that sort of
cheap shot, then you should be ashamed of yourself. But
since you apparently have no normal sense of what is decent,
fortunately there are laws that draw lines around what you
can stupidly say with impunity.

Two thoughts:

1. Go f*#k yourself.

2. failed
fāld/
adjective

1.(of an undertaking or a relationship) not achieving its end or not lasting; unsuccessful.

Feel free to throw money into your lawyer's bank account though, I'm sure he's willing to accept it, while laughing at your bone-f*#kin stupid bluster.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Jan 3, 2016 - 08:07pm PT
I feel for ya MB, fending off cowardly robotic wacks. But is it worth the effort?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 3, 2016 - 08:19pm PT
Feel free to throw money into your lawyer's bank account though

Nah, it worked out, as you've shown yourself for what you are. That's all I was shooting for.

Little pricks like you have turned this forum into a flat-out cesspool.
Risk

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Jan 3, 2016 - 08:20pm PT
Among the most amusing threads! The Donald crowd has showed up. What would/will The Donald do? They'll be there "for years;" I'll bet it'll get a little weird out there by inauguration day next January!
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Jan 3, 2016 - 08:24pm PT
As an argument, you don't get to retro, cherry pick which fegeral expendatures you don't support and then claim you should get a tax refund.

Under that logic, most people would not have approved of using federal tax dollars to steal all the best surfing and climbing areas from Mexico.

Without all that rock and ocean we'd all be members of the Nitro Circus right now, playing in dirt.

nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 3, 2016 - 08:28pm PT
I'm glad you only took a short vacation from ST, Will.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jan 3, 2016 - 08:30pm PT
Well, the ranchers in question seem to be big fish. I've spent the last couple of hours reading, and listening to absolutely whacked out videos. Mainly from the Bundy sons.

The Hammond's attorney disavowed anything coming from the Bundy, etal camp. They have made this very clear. They want nothing to do with Bundy or the militias.

These aren't poor little ranchers. From what I could find, they own over ten thousand acres, and lease grazing rights for another 22,000 from the BLM.

I tend to agree that burning 140 acres of rangeland is no big deal, but the federal prosecutor took it that way and got a jury conviction.

Then there is the usual intrigue about problems between the Hammonds and the BLM. Apparently there is some history there.

As for the retards occupying the refuge headquarters, this is the second time that they have pulled this. Many of the characters were the main characters in the Bundy standoff. I have no sympathy for them. Cut the power, cut the phone lines, and let them come out crying when they run out of toilet paper.
Risk

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Jan 3, 2016 - 08:46pm PT
It's a nice looking building. I would hate to see it turned to rubble. The renovation alone will fall on to American Taxpayers to pay for after the occupation. Amazing that such a small, peanut-nobody group could cause such a stir....

I was out that way last summer; boy, talk about "Y'all Qaedaville!" Nary a state trooper anywhere for hundreds of miles. We were passed by a semi while we were going 75 in a 55!
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 3, 2016 - 08:51pm PT
As an argument, you don't get to retro, cherry pick which fegeral expendatures you don't support and then claim you should get a tax refund.

Under that logic, most people would not have approved of using federal tax dollars to steal all the best surfing and climbing areas from Mexico.

Without all that rock and ocean we'd all be members of the Nitro Circus right now, playing in dirt.

What?

What am I, little Delaware who bought in first to the Constitution, to Madbolter's New Hampshire which got to make its own terms?

Nuh-uh.

We apparently all get to choose which stuff to pay for. The Congress we elect to decide that and answers to us be damned. This is all a lot more fun than actually voting responsibly every two years. How boring.

There's a Federal Energy Regulatory Commission office here in town. I'm taking it over until they stop giving water to Eastern Washington and I get paid back for Hanford.

There's a nice pub next door.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Jan 3, 2016 - 08:52pm PT
You made a claim. It's defamatory. Defend it or retract it.

Simple


fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 3, 2016 - 08:52pm PT
So, it would seem the two accused are reporting for jail (again) willingly tomorrow. It would seem that should be the end of it.

Why not let the, albeit armed, men camp in Malheur for as long as they like and simply issue them citations mailed to their home addresses?

Armed confrontation sure seems stupid to me in this case.
John M

climber
Jan 3, 2016 - 08:52pm PT
I tend to agree that burning 140 acres of rangeland is no big deal, but the federal prosecutor took it that way and got a jury conviction.

the way the story reads it was a bit more then just setting fire to 140 acres. There was a burning ban at the time because of the dangers of the drought. The fire he set endangered some firefighters. There is another story that a possibly different fire he set was to cover up some poaching he did on federal land which they leased for cattle grazing.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 3, 2016 - 08:54pm PT
It disappoints me to see this thread gain so many posts so far afield, but even more so to read the vehemence with which we denigrate each other. The idiots occupying the HQ aren't worth the aggravation we're causing each other on this one, guys.

John
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 3, 2016 - 09:03pm PT
There is another story that a possibly different fire he set was to cover up some poaching he did on federal land which they leased for cattle grazing.

The Hammonds slaughtered a herd of either deer or elk, killed at least 7 and injured more according to a witness.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 3, 2016 - 09:13pm PT
The county sheriff had these comments on the subject today.

Harney County Sheriff David M. Ward said authorities from “several organizations” are working to peacefully resolve the standoff, which began Saturday when an unknown number of armed activists occupied an uninhabited building at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, about 30 miles outside the town of Burns, Ore.

“These men came to Harney County claiming to be part of militia groups supporting local ranchers, when in reality these men had alternative motives, to attempt to overthrow the county and federal government in hopes to spark a movement across the United States,” Ward said in a statement Sunday.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/oregon-sheriff-says-refuge-occupiers-trying-to-overthrow-government/ar-AAgjul1?li=BBnbfcL

Tonight, ABC News had a short statement from a local pastor, who was greatly offended by "outsiders" trying to stir up trouble.


Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Jan 3, 2016 - 09:15pm PT
The Hammonds slaughtered a herd of either deer or elk, killed at least 7 and injured more according to a witness.

Facts don't bother the Patridiots...
WBraun

climber
Jan 3, 2016 - 09:26pm PT
know it all stuportopo do nothing armed finger wagers hard at work wasting their time again ......
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 4, 2016 - 05:17am PT
Ah the good old days. Harken back to when the tobacco industry had completely unfettered access to the American (and World) population without the nuisance interference of the government.

Holy Crap. I seriously hope this was meant for sarcasm......

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Make no mistake, the Bundy crowd are straight up stoopid, but the message and the realities of the Hammond case are 100% legit.

A legal system that allows a US Attorney (who, for the record has long since been fired for inappropriate sexual advances and threatening text messages) to try ranchers in Oregon under some terrorist act as yet another attempt to manage out one of the founding ranches in the area, is broken and needs fixing.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 4, 2016 - 06:21am PT
The Hammonds slaughtered a herd of either deer or elk, killed at least 7 and injured more according to a witness.


Exactly how dependable is an eye witness that can't discern whether the Hammonds killed Elk or Deer?

They also said David Korresh was a pederast once people started asking questions about why the government was encircling some religious nutbags in Texas.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 4, 2016 - 06:49am PT
but the message and the realities of the Hammond case are 100% legit.

I'm sorry, but just because they lease some federal land doesn't mean they get to run it like they own it.

As someone said upstream, if you don't want to deal with federal land regulations, don't make your living off of federal land.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jan 4, 2016 - 06:49am PT
the simple reason they have not gotten the same treatment as the Muslims is that they are a bunch of chincen sh#t wimps and with the exception of oklahoma have never actually done anything significant. The muslims on the otherhand are exceptionaly brazen and effective. If these boneheads ever do pull off something reasonably big and efective the feds will take the gloves off. It seems like for now the feds are trying to keep this low key and small.
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Jan 4, 2016 - 06:53am PT
"The way the story reads it was a bit more then just setting fire to 140 acres. There was a burning ban at the time because of the dangers of the drought."

That never stopped the forest circus. Do we see any of them in jail?
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 4, 2016 - 07:07am PT

I'm sorry, but just because they lease some federal land doesn't mean they get to run it like they own it.

As someone said upstream, if you don't want to deal with federal land regulations, don't make your living off of federal land

If you educate yourself on the history of the Hammond Ranch, you will discover that the feds have basically coerced or simply bought out all the surrounding property and have been butt-hurt over the fact that the Hammonds (one of the original settlers of the area) didn't sell out and have been putting the squeeze on these people for decades.

When you dig into the history of some of these cases the tactics and systematic harassment gets lost in the cacophony of the final "act". No different than many other things, it allows .gov to pit citizens against each other while they pull the puppet strings and continue their march. With a couple of you on here goose stepping in the front.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 4, 2016 - 07:21am PT
Sort of like the last Nevada BLM insurrection:

According to records obtained by Reveal, two ranching families at the center of the Battle Mountain protests received $2.2 million from a federal drought disaster relief program.

Nevada ranchers collect drought subsidies while denying the drought

All these folks are all suckling at the federal teat and simply want to do so with no oversight or restrictions.

P.S. And if management of BLM lands were going to be turned over to the 'locals', those locals by all rights would be the tribes who were pushed off of many of them despite treaties.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 07:23am PT
Escopeta posted

If you educate yourself on the history of the Hammond Ranch, you will discover that the feds have basically coerced or simply bought out all the surrounding property and have been butt-hurt over the fact that the Hammonds (one of the original settlers of the area) didn't sell out and have been putting the squeeze on these people for decades.

When you dig into the history of some of these cases the tactics and systematic harassment gets lost in the cacophony of the final "act". No different than many other things, it allows .gov to pit citizens against each other while they pull the puppet strings and continue their march. With a couple of you on here goose stepping in the front.

How come when the government exploits and assaults people of color (i.e. Ferguson) the resulting protests are dismissed as riotous, ineffective and misplaced but when the government allegedly bullies white people anyone criticizing the resulting armed assault on a government building isn't educated enough and is "goose stepping?"
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jan 4, 2016 - 07:37am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

I knew it. "God" told him to do it
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 07:46am PT
... the history of some of these cases the tactics and systematic harassment gets lost ...



So where is MIA list?
franky

Trad climber
Black Hills, SD
Jan 4, 2016 - 07:52am PT
The federal government often manages land in such a way that isn't favorable for short term ranching interests.

This does not mean the government is anti-ranching. It results from the government having other priorities like the long term sustainability of the landscape, tourism, wildlife management, etc.

Federal land acquisition in the rural west relies on willing sellers. I'm sure it is heartbreaking to sell a ranch, but the reality is that many ranches sold to the federal government are not profitable as cattle ranches, and only survived as long as they did because of federal subsidy.

To me, the people barricaded in the headquarters represent the delusional few who think the best way to manage arid western land is to extract everything of value as quickly as possible. We should be thankful that federal land ownership prevents western landscapes from suffering at their hands.

We should simultaneously encourage constructive partnerships aimed at sustainable land uses specific to the region in question.


Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 4, 2016 - 07:53am PT
How come when the government exploits and assaults people of color (i.e. Ferguson) the resulting protests are dismissed as riotous, ineffective and misplaced but when the government allegedly bullies white people anyone criticizing the resulting armed assault on a government building isn't educated enough and is "goose stepping?"

Forgive me, the Ferguson Riots occurred before such time as I graced the pages of SuperTopo with the gift of my opinion. But I would have opined that while the civil disobedience methods are quite different, the underlying claims of both have significant merit.

While I enjoy a good hijack more than the next fellow, and having grown up in the bosom of good 'ole Ferguson Missouri, I relish any opportunity for discourse regarding Ferguson and the state of law enforcement in 'Murica. I would prefer to stay on topic as the full scope of the Hammond case is enlightening.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 07:56am PT
Apparently it has taken the govt 45 years to finally get the figure four leg lock on the Hammonds.


The Hammonds hold grazing rights on Bureau of Land Management (BLM) land and own private grazing acres intermingled with BLM land in the Steens Mountains. For 45 years, the Hammonds have used their BLM grazing rights and private property to run a successful operation. But now, their operation is being threatened not only by criminal and civil charges brought by the federal government, but with the loss of their grazing permits, as well. The BLM has refused to renew their grazing permits for two years running.

...

The fire later spread to approximately 139 acres of public land, land that happened to be one of Hammond’s grazing allotments. The Hammonds presented evidence that the spread onto public land was not intentional. However, back in 1999, a similar scenario had occurred (a prescribed burn on their land spread to public land), and the Hammonds had been warned that they would face serious consequences should it happen again


From a sympathetic publication



http://www.tsln.com/news/17302049-113/story.html
franky

Trad climber
Black Hills, SD
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:06am PT
zBrown, that article is actually pretty well written. The one thing that shows it's relatively minor bias is that they simply state the BLM refused to renew the grazing permit.

It seems likely that the BLM likely had a good reason to do that. The article makes it seem arbitrary.

The case of the Hammond family is actually interesting and important. The rest of it is pathetic.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:08am PT
While I tend to agree our federal government is perhaps one of the worst band of murderous criminals in the world this particular situation in Oregon seems to have no merit for changing any of that.

First off, the father and son are willingly heading to prison. I'm not sure what these other guys "holding the refuge" are holding out for...


nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:09am PT
I knew it. "God" told him to do it

White Christian Terrorists

Where is the outrage?



wait.. wait...

















BENGHAZI!!!!111169
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:25am PT
More

Brief History on the Area:

The Harney Basin (were the Hammond ranch is established) was first settled in the 1870’s. In 1908 President Theodor Roosevelt creates an “Indian reservation” around the Malheur, Mud & Harney Lakes despite the absence of Indians. The reservation later turns became the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge.

1964 – The Hammond family purchases roughly 6000 acres of property grazing and water rights to the public land area. By 1970 the US Department of Fish and Wildlife Service begins to pressure local ranchers in Harney Basin to sell their property, the Hammonds refused.

1970’s nearly all the ranches adjacent to the Blitzen Valley were purchased by the US Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS) and added to the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. Government expand the refuge to cover over 187,000 acres, stretching over 45 miles long and 37 miles wide. Hammond Ranch is now surrounded by the refuge.

FWS and BLM continue to pressure ranchers to sell their property by stating “grazing was detrimental to wildlife.” They start revoking ranch permits, water rights and grazing rights. Fees for grazing and irrigation skyrocket.

I suppose if the govt truly wanted to act with authority and a heavy hand:

em·i·nent do·main
dirtbag

climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:27am PT
Dmt, it's severe but the law states 5 years and to impose less amounts to a judge making up the law. I think the reversal was entirely appropriate. As stated up thread, the merits of mandatory minimums are certainly debatable, but a judge needs to interpret the law correctly, and he/she blew it.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:30am PT
So your beef is with the jury, correct?
Norton

Social climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:30am PT

the ranchers set not one but two different fires of public land

they knew the land did not belong to them, they knew they were breaking the law

there is a federal minimum time of 4 years for doing what they did

they have not yet served the full four years and are therefore going back until they do

I don't understand how any of their behavior can be defended?
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:31am PT
Supreme Court refused the case once. I suppose they could try the "cruel & unusual" punishment tack.

Does the 1996 law mention guns?


11,687 signers so far

http://savethehammonds.com/



dirtbag

climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:33am PT
Actually Crankster, it's with the legislature. If the judge found it was cruel and unusual punishment, that would be one thing. But no one, appellate court concluded, found that.

I'm not sure five years is right, but a sentience of only one month for an arson used to cover up poaching, after receiving a warning previously, followed by a second arson in 2006 that could have killed several firefighters, was waaaaaaaay too light.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:33am PT
Dmt, it's severe but the law states 5 years and to impose less amounts to a judge making up the law. I think the reversal was entirely appropriate. As stated up thread, the merits of mandatory minimums are certainly debatable, but a judge needs to interpret the law correctly, and he/she blew it.

You argument builds on a premise that it was appropriate to try them under an Anti_Terrorist Act in the first place. So while you are technically correct in that the 5 year minimum is as the law states, it discounts the fact that the US Atty office should have never been allowed to try them under such charges. So the entire foundation of the case is nothing more than further evidence that when Big Daddy .Gov wants your sh#t, he's gonna get it.

Can I say sh#t here? I think I saw it somewhere else?
dirtbag

climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:34am PT
Do you know why they were sentenced under that act?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:35am PT
Again, it - 1,778,560 acres - was all Paiute Reservation by the Treaty of 1872 which was signed after a relentless genocidal campaign by the Army. But the treaty was [deliberately] never ratified by Congress and in 1876 President Grant opened the area to settlers and replaced a sympathetic indian agent with one of the commanders of the Army's genocidal campaign.

Chief Egan of the Paiutes at the time:

"Did the government tell you to come here and drive us off this reservation? Did the Big Father say, go and kill us all off, so you can have our land? Did he tell you to pull our children's ears off, and put handcuffs on them, and carry a pistol to shoot us with? We want to know how the government came by this land. Is the government mightier than our Spirit-Father, or is he our Spirit-Father? Oh, what have we done that he is to take all from us that he has given us? His white children have come and taken all our mountains, and all our valleys, and all our rivers; and now, because he has given us this little place without our asking him for it, he sends you here to tell us to go away. Do you see that high mountain away off there? There is nothing but rocks there. Is that where the Big Father wants me to go? If you scattered your seed and it should fall there, it would not grow, for it is all rocks there."

The legal case in modern times dragged on for 35 years. In 1969, after enormous legal fees were subtracted from the total settlement, 850 Paiute people received as little as $741 each for the loss of their land. This was because the price of the land was set at 1890 prices, approximately .28 to .45 cents per acre.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:36am PT
I also sympathize with them, up til the arson and intimidation. If you haven't had a farm or
ranch in yer family for generations then you might not understand the love for the land.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:41am PT
Dingus posted
4-years in the pen for starting a controlled burn, with the sentence lengthened by some federal judge, after they'd already served their original sentence?

That does seem like bullshit to me. This does seem a case of justice-amok.

Seizing federal property isn't right. But at least as I understand it, the ranchers themselves have been railroaded.

Anyone on the Taco pretending to know if this was a just sentence or not is full of crap. We know very few of the specifics and we are all relying on reporting which is often wrong and contradictory.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:42am PT
Do you know why they were sentenced under that act?

I don't know if its for similar reasons as the Defense Authorization Act but I know in those instances if you're suspected of terrorism all rights are suspended. Suspected not convicted. No attorney, no trial, no bond not even a phone call.

So the fact that a cowboy is convicted of terrorism for burning a pasture ought to terrify everyone. It does me at least.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:45am PT
In case you haven't been paying attention, prosecutors have pretty much unlimited discretion in whether, when or how to bring charges. Once you get into the AEDPA maze it's almost imposszible to get back out.
-Franz Kafka


The AEDPA had a tremendous impact on the law of habeas corpus in the United States. One provision of the AEDPA limits the power of federal judges to grant relief[3] unless the state court's adjudication of the claim resulted in a decision that was

contrary to, or involved an unreasonable application of clearly established federal law as determined by the Supreme Court of the United States; or
based on an unreasonable determination of the facts in light of the evidence presented in the state court proceeding.
dirtbag

climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:49am PT
I don't know if its for similar reasons as the Defense Authorization Act but I know in those instances if you're suspected of terrorism all rights are suspended. Suspected not convicted. No attorney, no trial, no bond not even a phone call.

So the fact that a cowboy is convicted of terrorism for burning a pasture ought to terrify everyone. It does me at least.


Oh come on. They had attorneys, they had phone calls, they even had appellate review. Your suggestions otherwise amount to pure speculative tin foil hat nonsense.

And you do know that there was more to the story than simple pasture burning. Quit cherry picking facts.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:50am PT
Dingus posted
Cool. I don't pretend to know the facts. I'm not going to assume I do. So I won't take your or Norton's or anyone else's words as fact, either. :D

But I still sympathize with those ranchers and think that sentence is excessive.

I didn't mean it as a personal attack, just pointing out that we all tend to jump to conclusions on these issues and quickly line up rooting for one side or the other. I think we all can sympathize with holding on to a family farm but it's also not cool to be setting federal land on fire repeatedly. And, yes, I very much was including myself in that statement. Anyone who hasn't been following this closely for years is basically making sh#t up.

dirt posted
Oh come on. They had attorneys, they had phone calls, they even had appellate review. Your suggestions otherwise amount to pure speculative tin foil hat nonsense.

It's still quite possible they got railroaded. Government agents will happily use whatever statutes they can. It's one of the reasons we owe it to ourselves to take the legislation we pass that can be used to curtail civil rights very seriously.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:55am PT
We the people should really wake up to the facts regarding how the feds are defining "terrorism" and then using such a definition to strip people of rights without due process of law or by trying people according to "laws" that really have no reasonable application to them.

The academic community sweepingly recognizes that rigorously defining "terrorism" is an intractable project, as the term is so emotively-laden that legal objectivity is impossible to achieve. Thus, in the wake of 9-11, our government has played on the emotive elements of possible definitions to arrive at (according to the FBI) one that is so sweeping and generalized that even intentionally speeding (by any amount) as an act of civil disobedience can be cast as an act of "terrorism."

I have very limited sympathy with the father/son ranchers (limited to an acknowledgement of their love of the land and their lifestyle). But trying them as terrorists seems to me FAR beyond the pale, and that seems to me to be the fundamental overreach on the part of the feds. That said, it's hard to discover the whole story in this case.

My biggest concern is the fact that they were tried in the context of terrorism laws, because I have been afraid of misapplications of the federal "terrorism" definition for many years.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:01am PT
Don't care about the dole. I do care that they set a blaze that directly threatened wildland firefighters who were already fighting an active fire, by setting blaze below their camp, and incurred millions in taxpayer costs to deal with their rash actions.

I have good friends that are wildland firefighters, smoke jumpers, etc. They've had several of their comrades killed in the line of duty, in the last few years.

I agree the sentence is excessive. But as I said before, there are remedies: clemency, pardon, or legislative process. Terrorism is not a remedy.

Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:05am PT
"Do you know why they were sentenced under that act?"

Because the statute of limitations for arson in Oregon is 3 years. Federal statute is 5 years. They couldn't be charged with Arson under state or federal law.

When the law doesn't allow something, find another law - that is how our overlords work in America today.

Oh, and the law doesn't apply to them...

"In August 1994 the BLM & FWS illegally began building a fence around the Hammonds water source. Owning the water rights and knowing that their cattle relied on that water source daily the Hammonds tried to stop the building of the fence. The BLM & FWS called the Harney County Sheriff department and had Dwight Hammond (Father) arrested and charged with “disturbing and interfering with” federal officials or federal contractors (two counts, each a felony). He spent one night in the Deschutes County Jail in Bend, and a second night behind bars in Portland before he was hauled before a federal magistrate and released without bail. A hearing on the charges was postponed and the federal judge never set another date."

Interfering with water rights used to be a hanging offense.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:07am PT
Dingus posted
I'm not lining up. I'm not rooting for my team. I just don't like the vilification of the ranchers though. That whole 'they took Federal dole' angle is what prompted me to post... so f*#king what they took dole???

It's a hypocrisy issue. Liberals decry those they see as vilifying "takers" but are happy to do so themselves. It's a complete assumption to project that onto this situation. We're all victims of media-centric political worldviews.
kief

Trad climber
east side
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:08am PT
The expansive definition of "terrorism" advanced by some on here would have applied to the civil rights protesters who closed the Edmund Pettus Bridge in Selma, Alabama in 1965. It would have applied to the folks who refused to leave the offices of the Joint Chiefs of Staff at the Pentagon in 1967. It would have applied to the students who occupied Hamilton Hall at Columbia University in 1968.

I'm not buying it.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:13am PT
Maybe now we can elect some legislators who aren't cowards.

That whole post was spot-on, DMT!
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:13am PT
Dingus posted

Hypocrisy is a crime now?

I'm pretty sure we were talking about the mocking of them taking the dole...
dirtbag

climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:14am PT
Thanks Dave, but my point is that none of us know why they were sentenced under that terrorism act. Mostly, we are speculating.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:14am PT
I for one don't think ranchers are evil.

Interesting how I attach my own bias to spin the info they way I want it to go. I for one believe that Ranching, particularly burger ranching, is an evil, arcane holdout of Manifest Destiny arrogance and no less a crime against the environment than Poaching and Arson (the crimes in question). Five years (they were credited time served) is light.

I sympathize with the Paiute and the wildlife.

I also believe that Terrorism was the premise used by the Feds to eradicate the Paiute and any other troublesome brown people and that none of the ranchers were complaining about Gov overreach when they bought their acreage.

And the Press? Liars and Sodomites every one. NTTAWWT.



Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:18am PT
True, dirtbag. It's a dick move by the feds. Can't deny that.
dirtbag

climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:20am PT
I'm not so sure about that either. I think serving only one month would have been far too light.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:20am PT
Thanks Dave, but my point is that none of us know why the were sentenced under that terrorism act. Mostly, we are speculating.

Can we agree that the Hammonds were not running an ISIS safe house or secretly funding the Assad regime abroad? If so, do we need to know why they decided to try them under a terrorist statute to not like it?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:21am PT
But I still sympathize with those ranchers and think that sentence is excessive.

My biggest concern is the fact that they were tried in the context of terrorism laws, because I have been afraid of misapplications of the federal "terrorism" definition for many years.

The Hammonds can thank Clive Bundy & Co. for the Feds now taking a hard line on this sort of thing...
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:23am PT
Yup. Poaching.... Only evidence of which came from this "witness"...

"Federal attorneys, Frank Papagni, hunted down a witness that was not mentally capable to be a credible witness. Dusty Hammond (grandson and nephew) testified that Steven told him to start a fire. He was 13 at the time and 24 when he testified (11 years later). At 24 Dusty had been suffering with mental problems for many years. He had estranged his family including his mother. Judge Hogan noted that Dusty’s memories as a 13-year-old boy were not clear or credible. He allowed the prosecution to continually use Dusty’s testimony anyway. When speaking to the Hammonds about this testimony, they understood that Dusty was manipulated and expressed nothing but love for their troubled grandson."
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:24am PT
The Hammonds can thank Clive Bundy & Co.

Yeah, and the irony there is that the Hammonds just can't get 'em to stop "helping" even now. Sigh
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:24am PT
They were sentenced under the 1996 act because that act set the minimum sentence for arson on federal land, regardless of whether you are a terrorist or not.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:24am PT
The Hammonds can thank Clive Bundy & Co. for the Feds now taking a hard line on this sort of thing...

OMG, the new version of blame Canada.
Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:31am PT
They used to shoot land grabbing cattle barons in Harney County.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_French
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:35am PT
They could have been tried and sentenced under

1666. Destruction Of Government Property -- 18 U.S.C. § 1361

The penalties for violations of this section are tied to the extent of the property damage. As amended on September 13, 1994, if the damage exceeds $100, the defendant is subject to a fine of up to $250,000, ten years imprisonment, or both. See Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994, Pub. L. 103-322, § 330016, 108 Stat. 1796, 2146-47 (1994). When property damage does not exceed $100, the offense is a misdemeanor punishable by a fine of up to $100,000, one year imprisonment, or both. See 18 U.S.C. §§ 3559(a), 3571.
Norton

Social climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:35am PT
They were sentenced under the 1996 act because that act set the minimum sentence for arson on federal land, regardless of whether you are a terrorist or not.

then why are people here saying they are being treated like "terrorists"?
John M

climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:39am PT
then why are people here saying they are being treated like "terrorists"?

leading question?

because of the name of the act…..the federal Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996.



I feel so used.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:50am PT
if the damage exceeds $100

That's an amazingly low bar. You pretty much can't spit on the sidewalk without causing $100 in damage. So, pretty much, you can be charged with a felony and do 10 years in federal pen for bending a blade of grass.

Oh, and if you bent the blade of grass with "intent to make a political or social statement," you're a "terrorist" to boot. Property damage is included in the FBI definition of "terrorism."
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 4, 2016 - 10:00am PT
Mb, you got three choices, 1 don't bend Federal grass, 2 petition Congress to change the law, 3 lay siege to somr federal lands. It must suck living in your reality
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 4, 2016 - 10:06am PT
The 1996 also set minimums for passport alteration, forgery, bribery, smuggling, etc. Acts that we don't necessary label an offender as a terrorist.

They gave a catchy name to the entire act so it would get broad support if it was positioned as anti-terrorist.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 4, 2016 - 10:12am PT
It must suck living in your reality

No, really it must suck to live in a "reality" in which you feel the need to turn a discussion into such a comment.

And, really, there are more options than you list.

Furthermore, your number 2 is a non-starter and incredibly naive from an individual perspective! Until people wake up to the evils of the Patriot Act, the massive surveillance-state empowerment that was embedded into this latest federal budget, and what "terrorism" means to the feds, a few people individually "petitioning congress" is useless. The only hope is raising awareness until "enough" people are making it an issue to candidates up for election/reelection that congress quits playing the games it is playing.

Online discussions like this are just one piece of that puzzle.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 10:12am PT
madbolter posted
That's an amazingly low bar. You pretty much can't spit on the sidewalk without causing $100 in damage. So, pretty much, you can be charged with a felony and do 10 years in federal pen for bending a blade of grass.

Madbolter: secret acid-spitting alien
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jan 4, 2016 - 10:21am PT
Madbolter: secret acid-spitting alien

An encephalopod maybe.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 4, 2016 - 10:26am PT
Wow. Just wowwww

Holy intentionally missing the obvious point, Batman.

Yeah, and "we're" going to get "together" against a federal government run amok?

Yeah, right. I guess, just hope that YOU never accidentally run afoul of its ire, because you cannot count on your "fellow citizens" for ANY help. They will apparently just tell you, "Well, you did bend a blade of grass, so do your 10 years, pay your quarter-million fine, and quit complaining!"

**First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
**
dirtbag

climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 10:30am PT
Oh the drama!
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 10:31am PT
I'm actually impressed. I assumed that all the Repubs would dodge the sh#t out of this.

Ted Cruz tells Oregon’s militant protesters to “stand down peaceably”
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 10:38am PT
madbolter posted
**First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Who will save Madbolter from the ill chasm of Godwin's Law?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 4, 2016 - 10:57am PT
How come when the government exploits and assaults people of color (i.e. Ferguson)

Remind me, again, the nature of the exploitation in Ferguson. All I saw was a bunch of people on ST who decided they knew the "facts" before any real determination of those facts. Last I saw, the objective evidence points to the correctness of the policemen's story, not that of their critics.

In a way, this case is the inverse of Ferguson. All the objective evidence shows the government to be correct, and the Bundyites to be wrong. Nonetheless, many posters, most of whom share my skepticism and mistrust of the federal government, use this rather clear example of misdeeds by an anti-government faction to bring alleged governmental misdeeds into the fore of the discussion.

What I think this really shows is the difficulty of removing our prejudices from our observations.

On a slightly different tangent, whoever said the beef in the Hammond case is with the jury has a point. The jury has the right to believe or disbelieve witnesses. The jundge, and any appellate court, must respect the jury's (or the trial judge's if there is no jury) determination of facts unless that determinatnion is clearly erroneous. The clearly erroneous standard is a rather high one. Merely because the reviewer would have found the facts differently isn't enough, particularly when it comes to deciding whose testimony gets what weight. Unless the factual finding is rather blatantly incorrect (e.g., if the jury decided that the thief stole $1,000.00 from person A, and $1,000.00 from person B, for a total of $3,000.00 from A and B), the jury's findings bind the reviewing courts.

On the other hand, a judge's rulings on the law are entitled to no particular wieght on appeal. The reviewing court examines issues of law de novo. When the trial judge in the Hammond case found that the minimum penalties "shocked the conscience," he had no discretion to sentence less unless he found the act under which they were sentenced unconstitutional.

Many statutes in Title 18 (the federal criminal code) specify only maximum sentences (e.g., shall be fined not more than $500,000.00, or sentenced to imprisonment of not more than five years, or both). Until about 2005, those statutes were subject to mandatory sentencing guidelines (talk about an oxymoron) that did not allow deviation. Around then, the SCOTUS ruled the mandatory guidelines unconstitutional, because they deprived the courts of discretion where congress did not.

In contrast, congress, not the guidelines, deprived the trial court of the discretion he exercised. If the Hammonds wanted to appeal, they would need to have challenged the constitutionality of that act at the trial level (in order to preserve the issue on appeal), as well as at the Ninth Circuit. Only then would the issue be ripe for decision by the SCOTUS. It sounds like they decided the hassle wasn't worth it.

To make my rather opaque comment a bit clearer, the judge who saw the trial and witnesses thought the sentence was unjust. All of us who review that belief, including the Ninth Circuit, have no reason to question that determination. Because the defendants chose not to pursue a constitutional challenge to the law, however, the trial judge's determinatnion of the justice of the sentence is irrelevant. The lighter sentence he imposed my be more just, but it is illegal.

John
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Jan 4, 2016 - 11:00am PT
The heavily armed Vanilla Isis is occupying a federal building, but they don't know what they want.

representative of the typical angry white male?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 4, 2016 - 11:18am PT
DMT, the two ranchers (hereafter the "ranchers") do not support the occupiers. The ranchers may well have been railroaded. That certainly seems the view of the trial judge who heard all the evidence that we didn't. The ranchers just want this over with.

I feel like I understand their position, because of my own experience as a federal defendant who many felt was unjustly (and possibly illegally) sentenced. The cost in time, money and emotions wasn't worth the fight to me. As a result of accepting the court's actions (which I personally felt were reasonable in the circumstances) and serving my time, I'm now emotionally free. I think that's all the ranchers want now.

Instead the occupiers have managed to put the ranchers front and center - just where they don't want to be. The occupiers constitute a very different situation, to me, from that of the ranchers. I simply see no justification for the occupiers' actions. I note, however, that they're getting exactly what they seek from the mainstream media. The broadcast news, the daily newspapers, even The Guardian have the occupiers and their demands and positions as front page news. If they left them alone, starved for news coverage, they'd be gone in no time.

John
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jan 4, 2016 - 11:21am PT
Armed people have taken over a government building. Does anyone really think that these guys aren't headed for prison? If I and 10 other guys armed ourselves and took over the local library, you can bet your ass that the SWAT team would be on the way. And they would be right.

I'll be happy to see these "patriots" who are upset about sucking off of the government tit get what they have coming. Grazing fees are a joke. From what I discovered, the Hammond family owns 10,000 acres and has another 20,000 acres of grazing leases on federal land.

Wiki actually has a page about grazing fees. Here is what they say:

In the United States, grazing fees are generally charged per AUM (animal unit month). (Some additional fee or fees may be charged in various jurisdictions, e.g. per application.) On US federal grazing land, the grazing fee for 2012 (as for 2011) is $1.35 per AUM.[3] Over several decades, the fees charged on US federal rangelands have generally been substantially lower than rates charged on private lands in the US.[4] In 2006, the grazing fee on Oregon state lands was $5.60 per AUM.[5]

So the state of Oregon charges $5.60. The federal government charges $1.35. I would call that a pretty damn good deal. It is practically free. You can feed a cow on federal land for only $16.20 a year.

I grew up on a pecan farm, with 350 trees. My dad used to lease the pasture around the trees to a cattle rancher. He paid the going rate. He only ran cattle on it for a few years. My dad planted much of it with vetch, which has nitrogen fixing bacterial growths on the roots. It is good for the soil, which was rich and black good bottomland.

The rancher always had his cattle out by pecan harvest season, in the fall.

The rancher didn't own the land. He leased it. I need to ask my Dad how much he received, but I can nigh promise you that he paid more than $1.35 bucks per cow per month. That is almost free.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jan 4, 2016 - 11:31am PT
DMT, the two ranchers (hereafter the "ranchers") do not support the occupiers.

This is true, and an important point. The Hammonds and their attorney want nothing to do with these guys. The Bundy sons are acting like a branch of the military. Fat bastards with guns and no job drive up there when they hear the call.

I do think that 5 years for burning 130 acres is excessive. If it was rangeland, I'm surprised that they even cared. That land needs to be burned every 5 to 10 years or so anyway.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 11:35am PT
John posted:
Remind me, again, the nature of the exploitation in Ferguson. All I saw was a bunch of people on ST who decided they knew the "facts" before any real determination of those facts. Last I saw, the objective evidence points to the correctness of the policemen's story, not that of their critics.

John, it's a little frustrating that you would be so dismissive considering the volume of reporting about this and the US Department of Justice Report on the extensive systemic abuse. The predominantly white city council was using the predominantly black citizenry as a cash register to keep taxes low through a regime of aggressive policing and fining (and then fining/jailing for inability to pay the fines). Is the WSJ not covering these kinds of topics?
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 4, 2016 - 11:38am PT

The rancher didn't own the land. He leased it. I need to ask my Dad how much he received, but I can nigh promise you that he paid more than $1.35 bucks per cow per month. That is almost free.

For the record, comparing the relative fertility of a pecan orchard with Harney Basin is, shall we say, inappropriate.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jan 4, 2016 - 11:38am PT
http://theconcourse.deadspin.com/those-jamokes-in-oregon-arent-terrorists-theyre-jamoke-1750918911

The American political lexicon has an appropriate word for the armed men conspicuously loitering in part of Oregon’s Malheur National Wildlife Refuge instead of going home. It is not terrorist or militia or occupation or revolution or movement or front or army or resistance. The word is jamoke. “Get a load of these sad jamokes!” is the thing you say about them.

Maybe when they are done annexing this remote administrative office’s supply of free park maps and permit application forms, they will liberate rural Oregon’s port-a-johns next. Some of the port-a-johns are heavily fortified with locking doors and hand sanitizer pumps. Surely this will call for siege weaponry.

Imagine the grade of sad, stunted halfwit who decks himself out in paramilitary regalia and lethal weaponry to stage a sit-in at what is for all intents and purposes a remote wildlife park’s visitor’s center. Okay, men, when I kick in the door, you three move on the 74-year-old v0lunteer who shows the birdwatching slideshow to elementary-school field trip groups; if she makes a move, be ready to take her down with force. The rest of us will establish a defensive position behind the cardboard beaver. If bigger goobers than these exist on our planet, you identify them by the bruises from where they poked themselves in the eye while trying to pick their noses.








BREAKING: White Men Enter Building In Rural Oregon, Act Like They Run The Place. Here is a question: At which rural Oregon building isn’t that true? That sh#t happens at 9:00 in the morning literally every day at literally every building in rural and suburban America. It is called the start of the workday. Maybe these sh#t-for-brains jamokes can push a broom around while they’re there, or take the recycling to the curb. Make yourselves useful, clowns!

A tragicomic thing happens, though, when a handful of slow-witted white dorks in their best Sunday camo decide to take their guns and their entitled, useless, cosmically unserious day-to-day dull-eyed skulking to a minor government shack and pretend it’s some sort of insurrection against tyranny. Liberal internet users’ latent frustration at the disproportionality and unfairness of the way American law enforcement and media treat different kinds of people tips over into a mild derangement that has us likening these sh#t-for-brains dinguses to friggin’ ISIS. This is understandable! We’re just about a week from an Ohio grand jury deciding that summary execution is a fair consequence for 12-year-old kids who play with toys outdoors; by that standard, the entire state of Oregon should be a radioactive desert right now. This seems a fair thing to point out.

Still, hang on. First, watch this nimrod tearfully explain to his family that he had to miss Christmas and New Year’s Eve because his solemn duty to the Constitution required him to go to a wildlife park’s empty administrative building and hang out there for a while in the desperate hope that someone outside his brotherhood of blinkered morons would decide this makes him Andrew Pickens:
All together now: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Hey Jon, pick up some toilet paper and fruit roll-ups on the way home, wouldja?

Here is the thing. These men are not frightening. They are jamokes. They are exactly jamokes. Their guns, on the other hand, are very frightening—for precisely and entirely the same reason and to absolutely the same degree that those same guns would be frightening in the hands of toddlers. Not because the people holding those guns are serious, but because the people holding those guns are not serious.

This, my good buddies, is the entire American pro-gun argument made (embarrassing, oh my God so f*#king embarrassing) flesh. A big scary gun lends a degree of real power even to the variety of sad, corny-ass loser who invades and occupies what is essentially a fancy birdhouse in the name of ending tyranny. That is the whole reason to have a big scary gun. Not as a safeguard against home invaders or the totalitarian state, but as a safeguard against a clear-eyed reckoning with plain reality. A gun is—or at least these jamokes hope it is—a Get Out Of Getting Laughed At Free card. When you call these horse’s asses “terrorists,” you are not only dignifying their ridiculous, impotent actions, you are doing them the biggest favor for which they can hope.

Here is what this is: it’s the moment the gun-humping right pantsed itself for all the world to see. Look at these sad cowards! The smallness of their acting-out; the transparency of their bullshit; the fraudulence of their anti-authoritarian pose; the convenience of the fact that their active search for a tyranny against which to rebel—it wasn’t coming to take their guns away, you see—led them to an unoccupied building of zero value in the middle of nowhere, where the most aggressive response they’ll muster from the government they so eagerly pretend to fear is an irritated phone call from a Bureau of Land Management flack. There’s no reason to join them in the collective fantasy that they represent a threat to anything other than the urine-free status of this random building’s bathroom sink.

Some morons decided to take a vacation from reality. They brought their guns along. The rest of the world actually does not have to join them! Eventually they will get bored of waiting for tyranny to come certify their jagoff fantasy. Maybe they will leave a bag of flaming crap on tyranny’s doorstep on their way back home.

fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 4, 2016 - 11:38am PT
Point is there is no point here... The ranchers reported to prison and didn't want to contest it apparently.

What bothers me most is the people who want the gov't to kill/maim/mutilate the 'protesters' who are holed up in some snowy unoccupied building without a cause. They might be idiots but that's no reason to physically harm them and risk kicking off more conflict between gov't and an angry misinformed populace.

There is no need for violence here on either side and hopefully nothing will happen.

Send 'em tickets for trespassing later. Defuse the whole situation.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jan 4, 2016 - 11:39am PT
Wiki has a great page describing the events of the Nevada standoff with the Bundy family.

It is good reading. If you are interested in the basic facts behind the event, you should read it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff

The summary tells of the reason that the BLM physically stepped in to remove his cattle. It is much simpler than many make it out to be:

The ongoing dispute started in 1993, when, in protest against changes to grazing rules,[2] Bundy declined to renew his permit for cattle grazing on BLM-administered lands near Bunkerville, Nevada.[3] According to the BLM, Bundy continued to graze his cattle on public lands without a permit.[4] In 1998, Bundy was prohibited by the United States District Court for the District of Nevada from grazing his cattle on an area of land later called the Bunkerville Allotment.[3] In July 2013, the BLM complaint was supplemented when federal judge Lloyd D. George ordered that Bundy refrain from trespassing on federally administered land in the Gold Butte area of Clark County.[5]

You might find Bundy's worldview interesting. He, like many of these guys, believe in the Sovereign Citizen world view:

According to The Guardian, Bundy told his supporters that "We definitely don't recognize [the BLM director's] jurisdiction or authority, his arresting power or policing power in any way," and in interviews he used the language of the sovereign citizen movement, thereby gaining the support of members of the Oath Keepers, the White Mountain Militia and the Praetorian Guard militias.[33] Followers of the sovereign citizen movement generally believe that the U.S. government is illegitimate.[34] The movement is considered by the FBI as the nation’s top domestic terrorism threat.[35][36]

J. J. MacNab, who writes for Forbes about anti-government extremism, has described Bundy’s views as inspired by the sovereign citizen movement, whose adherents believe that the county sheriff is the most powerful law-enforcement officer in the country, with authority superior to that of any federal agent, local law-enforcement agency or any other elected official.[37] On April 12, 2014, Bundy "ordered" Clark County Sheriff Doug Gillespie to confront the federal agents, disarm them and deliver their arms to Bundy within an hour of his demand. He later expressed disappointment that Gillespie did not comply, and he said that the demand had applied to all sheriffs in the country.[37][38]

The Southern Poverty Law Center has described Bundy's views as closely aligned with those of the Posse Comitatus organization, and it has also asserted that such self-described "patriot" groups were focused on secession, nullification, state sovereignty and the principles of the Tenther movement.[39][40]



Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jan 4, 2016 - 11:47am PT
Well I don't have party lines.

maybe you don't have party lines, and I don't include you in this, but a great number of ST posters have panty lines, all bunched up and affecting their collective brain cells.

BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jan 4, 2016 - 11:48am PT
There is no need for violence here on either side and hopefully nothing will happen.

Send 'em tickets for trespassing later. Defuse the whole situation.

I would bet that something like this will indeed happen. Nobody wants to see another Waco, even if the feds are in the right, which the Hammond family has not even contested.

These guys are armed to the teeth, though, and Ammon Bundy said that they were going to use the building for years. At some point they are going to have to leave.

This all reminds me of Tim McVeigh, who took similar beliefs to a horrific end. I live in a suburb of OKC, and my 2 year old son was 9 blocks from his truck bomb. Even at that distance, it blew out all of the windows facing the explosion.

You won't find much sympathy for the militia types in Oklahoma. After the bombing, many militia groups disbanded. Now a newer generation is taking it up again, with weird theories of government that have no basis on reality.

If you don't believe me about Ammon Bundy's claims of what they are going to do with the wildlife refuge office building, just watch what he says:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H264Z2v80vg
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 4, 2016 - 11:54am PT
They're not "armed to the teeth". It's a bunch of unsupported guys with small arms in inhospitable and unfamiliar terrain.

It's not worth risking an ounce of blood on either side IMO.

If there really is evidence that someone may have truly criminal intent (aka the OK bombing) then arrest them later.



zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 11:55am PT

Remind me, again, the nature of the exploitation in Ferguson.

Start with the report of the Justice Department.

Darkness at the break of noon.

The 12 key highlights from the DOJ’s scathing Ferguson report
dirtbag

climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 12:02pm PT
Send 'em tickets for trespassing later. Defuse the whole situation

After seeing how the bundy mess played out two years ago, with the Feds backing down, I doubt the feds have itchy trigger fingers this time around. But when this over, they will get much harsher charges than trespassing, since they are interfering with the functions of federal employees.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 12:18pm PT
Dingus posted
Oregon, Wall Street, Ferguson, South Carolina, etc etc etc protesters trespassed in support of causes not their own. It seems criticism of those occupations falls on the usual party lines.

They were unarmed. I have no problem with unarmed occupation of public spaces even if I disagree with their goals. Show up with weapons and you aren't protesting, you're assaulting. You're literally attacking America. Bust out your "America Under Siege" logos, FOX News!
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jan 4, 2016 - 12:34pm PT
A mob is just as dangerous un-armed as it is armed.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 4, 2016 - 12:42pm PT
Mobs are NOT as dangerous unarmed as they are armed.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 4, 2016 - 12:46pm PT
The DOJ report isn't what caused the demonstrations, civil disobedience and the riots - there were all three - in Ferguson. It was reaction to an inaccurate account of an encounter between policemen and a suspect who disobeyed police orders. A review of posts at the time demonstrate that most posters already made assumptions about whether the police account was truthful and made strong allegations, based on those assumptions, about the guilt or innocence of the officer involved.

The DOJ report nonetheless accounts for the vehemence of the response to the shooting, and also explains why so many people didn't consider the particular facts in that particular shooting as important as the larger history.

I know the usual suspect will accuse me of my usual false equivalence, but I see the same thing happening on this issue. Those supporting the occupiers are using their perceptions of history between the occupiers and their supposed supporters and the government as justification for the trespass/occupation.

I don't hold myself immune from this. I simply don't see any justification in current American history for occupation of anything by anyone who doesn't own it. That's true whether it's Justin Herman Plaza in San Francisco, Alcatraz Island by native Americans, or an abandoned facility in Oregon. The use of extra-governmental force threatens a free society, wherever we use that force.

John
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jan 4, 2016 - 12:52pm PT
"Mobs are NOT as dangerous unarmed as they are armed."


Sure they are.

A mob's primary weapon is its numbers. That's kind of the whole idea behind mobbing-up.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 4, 2016 - 12:54pm PT
"Mobs are NOT as dangerous unarmed as they are armed."


Sure they are.

A mob's primary weapon is its numbers. That's kind of the whole idea behind mobbing-up.

Oh Lordy, but I hope you can't procreate.

George Washington didn't use his ability to "mob-up" to defeat the British. He shot them.
hashbro

Trad climber
Mental Physics........
Jan 4, 2016 - 12:56pm PT
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/01/04/fbi-takes-lead-on-investigating-armed-takeover-of-federal-building-in-oregon/

What if the Oregon Protesters Were Black or Muslim? Debate Ensues

By KATIE ROGERSJAN. 4, 2016
Photo

An Arizona cattle rancher, LaVoy Finicum, led members of the media through the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge near Burns, Ore. Credit Jim Urquhart/Reuters

The Oregon protest at a federal wildlife refuge has reignited an already intense debate on social media about policing, race and terrorism.

On Saturday, an armed group of antigovernment protesters occupied a remote federal wildlife refuge in Oregon and warned that they would not leave without a fight. The authorities have held back rather than use force.

On social media, that led quickly to questions about a double standard, particularly from liberals and the left, who asked: What if the armed men were Muslim or black? They predicted the authorities would have been more forceful.

Many or all of the protesters appear to be white. It was unclear what religion they are, but least one has made reference to a prominent (and antigovernment) Mormon figure.

Ryan Bundy was one of the protesters occupying the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge near Burns, Ore., on Sunday.Armed Group Vows to Continue Occupation at Oregon RefugeJAN. 3, 2016
Ryan Bundy, part of an armed anti-government group, walks between occupied buildings at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge.What We Know About the Standoff in OregonJAN. 3, 2016

Protester Scott Drexler on a bridge next to the Bureau of Land Management's base camp where seized cattle, that belonged to rancher Cliven Bundy, where being held near Bunkerville, Nevada last April.Retro Report: Memories of Waco Siege Continue to Fuel Far-Right GroupsJULY 12, 2015
Randy Weaver supporters at Ruby Ridge in northern Idaho in 1992.Retro Report: An Idaho Family, and Federal Tactics, Under SiegeOCT. 26, 2014
Some wondered why the news media and the authorities were not calling the takeover a form of terrorism. People used the hashtags #YallQaeda, #YeeHawd, and #VanillaISIS to challenge a widely held perception that terrorism applies only to crimes carried about by minorities and non-Christians.


The leader of the armed group in Oregon is Ammon Bundy, the son of Cliven Bundy, a rancher in Nevada who in 2014 engaged in an armed standoff with federal officials, gaining the support of leaders in the conservative movement, then losing it after declaring that black Americans would be better off as slaves.

Still, many conservatives on Twitter criticized the debate, and said it was a step too far to call the men terrorists, and pushed back against memes that perpetuated stereotypes about white people.

Continue reading the main story
Continue reading the main story
Others objected to the criticism of the lack of force used by the authorities by drawing comparisons to past deadly standoffs between the federal authorities and armed groups that harbor antigovernment sentiments.

“Worth recalling lessons of Waco and Ruby Ridge before suggesting FBI should simply go to war with Oregon militiamen,” an observer wrote on Twitter on Sunday.


What We Know About the Standoff in Oregon
In February 1993, a gun battle erupted in Waco, Tex., between federal authorities and members of a religious sect called the Branch Davidians. The fighting resulted in the deaths of four federal agents and half a dozen members of the sect. That was followed by a 51-day standoff and another confrontation that left dozens more people dead. All told, at least 82 Branch Davidians died. A third of those killed were children.

A year earlier, a confrontation in northern Idaho between the authorities and Randall Weaver, a white separatist, led to the fatal shooting of his wife and son. A federal marshal was also killed during the conflict, which came after an 11-day standoff. In 1995, the government awarded $3.1 million to Mr. Weaver.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jan 4, 2016 - 01:04pm PT
If you are the first one to go into a situation armed, you are the aggressor. It is an act of intimidation. When the gubmn't shows up and calls you on it, and you say you are defending yourself, you are an idiot. There are few thngs as pathetic as a group of dumb, armed rednecks pretending to be "patriots".

But this is the price of living in the land of freedom I guess.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 4, 2016 - 01:17pm PT
Excuse me for missing the point of all this discussion. But it just seems absolutely embarrassing that some bubbas can think that pulling out guns will help solve some legal issue with the government of a country which is a huge global dealer in weapons and bombs, banking debt. What an image; what a legacy for a precocious country that is struggling to maintain moral credibility.

I'm actually far more embarrassed about letting the likes of your ilk hand over my liberty and personal freedom to our government than I will ever be of a bunch of retards out in the marsh trying find the thermostat in a federal building in one of the least populated counties in the entire country.
WBraun

climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 01:21pm PT
bubbas can think that pulling out guns will help solve sh!t

They learned it and are imitating their own govt.

The US govt. bullies everyone on the planet now a days with guns, bombs and threats of taking over if you don't toe their line ......
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 01:22pm PT
chaz posted
A mob is just as dangerous un-armed as it is armed.

That's why you don't own a gun, right? Because you're just as dangerous without it.
WBraun

climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 01:23pm PT
So they are no different then The US govt.

You Americans are insane .....
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jan 4, 2016 - 01:24pm PT
OMFG, these goobers are endless entertainment.

Now they are asking people to donate supplies (specifically "snacks, energy drinks, cold weather socks") by...wait for it...sending them via General Delivery to the Burns Post Office.

Govt Tyranny!! Oh, except the post office, they ain't real feds. Do these idiots really think they're going to be allowed to just take a jaunt into Burns, pick up their care-packages of Slim Jims and Red Bull, and pooter on back down to the Wildlife Refuge?

These Talibanjo fools are better than George Carlin, Richard Pryor, Kinnison, and Chris Rock all rolled into one. I've got tears of laughter rolling down my cheeks looking at their Twitter beg and the replies. It's like the best performance art ever.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jan 4, 2016 - 01:26pm PT
I simply don't see any justification in current American history for occupation of anything by anyone who doesn't own it. That's true whether it's Justin Herman Plaza in San Francisco, Alcatraz Island by native Americans, or an abandoned facility in Oregon. The use of extra-governmental force threatens a free society, wherever we use that force.

The justification is the creation of attention and publicity over something that is happening, but it not making it onto the airwaves.

This is a well-recognized form of civil disobedience.

BUT, there are required elements to be so:

1. No violence.
2. No arms.
3. allow arrests of protesters (although perhaps not simple "get up and go along")

I've always been impressed by those who protested, but agreeably went into custody, such as the Nun who trespassed at the nuclear facility.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jan 4, 2016 - 01:29pm PT
When you've lost the Oath Keepers, you might want to reconsider your Vanilla ISIS crusade:

Stewart Rhodes, president and founder of the Oath Keepers, posted a video statement on the ranchers' situation in which he criticized the son of infamous Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy for taking up the cause of Dwight and Stewart Hammond. Rhodes branded those involved with Ammon Bundy's protest as “potheads.”

“The Oath Keepers will not be involved in an armed stand off that’s being manufactured by potheads who want a fight because this is going to be a bad fight, not a righteous moral high ground fight,” Rhodes said in the video, which was posted Thursday.

Poor 'ol Rong must be mighty confused and torn right now. "Oaf Keepers or Burns Brigade, Oaf Keepers or Burns Brigade?"
Norton

Social climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 01:45pm PT
I know the usual suspect will accuse me of my usual false equivalence,


I doubt very much he will, as he agrees with you on this one, John!
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 4, 2016 - 01:48pm PT
Thanks, Norton! I haven't had a chance to respond in our private conversation for reasons that I am too busy to get into, but I hope you have a most wonderful new year.

John
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 4, 2016 - 02:00pm PT
They ARE their own government, that's the ironic part.

You mean....

Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 4, 2016 - 02:17pm PT
The Yee-Hawdists are in real trouble now. The Audubon Society of Portland has issued a statement condeming their actions at Malheur.

http://audubonportland.org/news/audubon-society-of-portland-statement-on-the-occupation-of-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 4, 2016 - 02:19pm PT
Seeing as Audubon shot more birds than any other person in all of recorded history (despite my attempts to unseat him from that title), does that mean this is an armed threat?

crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Jan 4, 2016 - 03:02pm PT
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Jan 4, 2016 - 04:24pm PT
So since it's fine to take over Fed lands when you are white,

when do the dirtbags take over Yosemite?

i propose a BMI of less than 28% to enter.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 4, 2016 - 04:32pm PT
when do the dirtbags take over Yosemite?


Ummmm....
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 04:37pm PT
Fritz posted
The Yee-Hawdists are in real trouble now.

Ok. That's awesome.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 4, 2016 - 04:43pm PT
Occupy Degnan's. Demand free beer, reserved parking at C4, strippers and no camping limit.
F

climber
away from the ground
Jan 4, 2016 - 04:46pm PT
Yeah, I think Fritz might have won the whole internet for the day with that one. We might need Burchy to make it official though.
I think " Y'allQaeda " is a close second, in my opinion.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 4, 2016 - 05:14pm PT
I just watched the nightly-report of bastion of liberal thoughts, NBC Nightly News on the subject.

The ranchers checked themselves into prison today.

There are no government roadblocks on the road to the Malheur HQ (I'd have that road blocked to all but official business or emergencies, and that includes blocked to the media.)

The Yee-Hawdists do have at least one female with them. (It is important for them to have some women & children around to hide behind, as demonstrated last year in the Nevada Bundy stand-off;)

There are some home-made signs in Burns telling the Yee-Hawdists to leave.

I strongly suspect the media-folks are not finding their stay in Burns real comfortable. It appears there are 4 ok motels in town, and I remember a few more that don't show up on an internet search.

I just watched the somewhat more conservative Boise NBC local news. They had about a five-minute spot on the Yeh-Hawdist occupation. They were much more sympathetic to the terrorists. In Idaho most of the media has fallen into line with the conservative majority, and needs to be anti-government. Bunch of fuking idiots.

edit: The Boise news did show the local Sheriff, in a news conference, not asking, but telling the Yew-Hawdists to leave.
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 4, 2016 - 05:25pm PT
If the feds set up roadblocks, that would probably escalate to violence as the yeeehawdists and outsiders try to evade and confront the roadblocks.

The roadblocks just give them a focalpoint to show how the guv persecutes true patriots.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 05:28pm PT
The Yee-Hawdists...

Is that your coinage? Good one.

Bunch of fuking idiots.

There you go. +1.




PS

I just watched the nightly-report... NBC Nightly News...

Hey how about that Hallie Jackson? what a gem!
monolith

climber
state of being
Jan 4, 2016 - 05:29pm PT
It's been on twitter for a few days.

#YeeHawdists

Found this there:

nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 4, 2016 - 05:39pm PT
so maybe this has been covered but how do y'all see this ending? Seems the Feds are going to do everything but make a scene.

Seems like it ends peacefully or guns-a-blazin'. (you can give me a no sh#t sherlock for that observation)

It appears the Feds are not going to push the issue so if guns start firing it starts with the domestic terrorists. Then anything could happen.

Let's say it starts peaceful and ends peaceful. Then what?

Arrest? On what charges?

Don't arrest. We the People of the United States of America are supposed to once again forgive these crimes?
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 4, 2016 - 05:40pm PT
In the end, I wonder how much of my tax money was spent to research, prosecute, trial, appeal and re-appeal 2 ranchers over burning about $1000 worth of pasture that the government likes to burn themselves from time to time.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 05:44pm PT
I wouldn't warp your noodle too hard worrying about costs and fees. The Feds are on salary. Now at least, you can't complain they were doing nothing and getting paid.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 05:45pm PT
A top city attorney resigned hours after a federal judge ruled Monday that he intentionally concealed crucial evidence in a trial over a fatal Chicago police shooting and then lied about his reasons for doing so.
-Francesco Vincent "Frank" Serpico


Scott then runs away from Slager, who raises his gun and fires eight times, striking Scott, who was unarmed and whose back was turned to Slager as he fled. Scott died at the scene.
-Not Dred Scott



Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 4, 2016 - 05:53pm PT
I tend to favor #Talibundy
F

climber
away from the ground
Jan 4, 2016 - 05:55pm PT
^

Hmmm... While appropriate, that one doesn't quite have a foreigny sounding ring to it out loud.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jan 4, 2016 - 05:57pm PT
There are tons of good ones circulating on twitter:

Ya'llQaeda
Vanilla ISIS
Talibanjo
YeeHawdists
Bozoharam
HicksBala
Infanttada
Rambros
Branch Stupidians
Gravy Seals
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 4, 2016 - 06:07pm PT
Some tweets floating about, looks like the Y'allQeada is looking to end this and quietly slither back to AZ

John Sepulvado @JohnLGC

Ryan #Bundy says he does not recognize the @HarneyCoSheriff as the sole "decider" about leaving, but says they will listen to community.

John Sepulvado @JohnLGC

Ryan #Bundy tells @OPB that "This is their county – we can’t be here and force this on them." #bundymilitia #burns cc @HarneyCoSheriff

John Sepulvado @JohnLGC

Again, @OPB is told the Bundy family will leave peacefully if the people of Harney County want them to.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 4, 2016 - 06:10pm PT

Jan 4, 2016 - 05:39pm PT
so maybe this has been covered but how do y'all see this ending? Seems the Feds are going to do everything but make a scene.

Seems like it ends peacefully or guns-a-blazin'. (you can give me a no sh#t sherlock for that observation)

It appears the Feds are not going to push the issue so if guns start firing it starts with the domestic terrorists. Then anything could happen.

Let's say it starts peaceful and ends peaceful. Then what?

Arrest? On what charges?

Don't arrest. We the People of the United States of America are supposed to once again forgive these crimes

Chill. There aren't any Feds out there. The #Talibundy can declare victory against the oppressive gummint and then go home and take out more Federal small business loans.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/01/ammon-bundy-oregon-protest-sba-loan

My guess is they will do that when the press gets cold and goes home.
stunewberry

Trad climber
Spokane, WA
Jan 4, 2016 - 06:23pm PT
http://cheezburger.com/707589/the-internet-is-here-to-help-you-make-sense-of-the-oregon-standoff-with-humorous-hashtags?ref=mosaicthumb3
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 4, 2016 - 06:52pm PT
I discussion of the Captain Moroni connection is here (Oregon Public Radio - Audio)

http://www.npr.org/2016/01/04/461944989/mormon-faith-serves-as-powerful-symbol-for-oregon-protesters?utm_campaign=storyshare&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Moroni
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 4, 2016 - 06:59pm PT
I have been thinking about the Yeh-Hawdist occupation of the HQ for Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in Oregon, and realized that many folks don't relate that act to an attempt to take back public lands in America & turn them all into private cow pastures------or fat cat estates.

There are millions of acres of public lands that are leased to ranchers at absurdly low rates by the BLM & Forest Service, and that land has mostly been turned into degraded cow-pastures that no farmer would allow on their own land.


Some photos of Idaho high desert BLM cattle habitat, very similar to that in the lower parts of Oregon's Malheur National National Wildlife Refuge.




My mother, who was a Idaho farmer's daughter, would repeatedly assure me during my rural Idaho childhood that: "cowshit smells like money."

Funny how cowshit still smells like cowshit to me.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 4, 2016 - 07:02pm PT
ehh... whatever. another one greased.

thoughts on what happens to these terrorists once they freeze and give up?
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Jan 4, 2016 - 07:10pm PT
Well, if they were black they'd probably be dead by now.

Slap on the wrists for the good 'ol boys.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 4, 2016 - 07:17pm PT
thoughts on what happens to these terrorists once they freeze and give up?

They go off and form the nation of Deseret, apparently.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 4, 2016 - 07:18pm PT
yup, Thugs would be taken out. brown-skin terrorists as well. White Patriots - you can leave.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jan 4, 2016 - 07:36pm PT
The LDS Church doesn't seem too happy about it:

SALT LAKE CITY — LDS Church leaders on Monday plainly and roundly denounced a militia whose organizers cited Mormon scriptures in the months before they seized a federal facility in Oregon on Saturday.

"While the disagreement occurring in Oregon about the use of federal lands is not a church matter," the church said in a statement, "church leaders strongly condemn the armed seizure of the facility and are deeply troubled by the reports that those who have seized the facility suggest that they are doing so based on scriptural principles. This armed occupation can in no way be justified on a scriptural basis. We are privileged to live in a nation where conflicts with government or private groups can — and should — be settled using peaceful means, according to the laws of the land."
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 4, 2016 - 07:43pm PT
It's painfully obvious, err... no it's only painful because I'm laughing so hard my abs hurt - that these dumb shits had no idea what they were doing or what they were getting themselves into.

They need skittles and blankets. And socks. reaching for a sock puppet joke but am ending up with fale.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 4, 2016 - 07:44pm PT
The DOJ report nonetheless accounts for the vehemence of the response to the shooting, and also explains why so many people didn't consider the particular facts in that particular shooting as important as the larger history.

Exactly. The people of Ferguson lived - lived - every day under the thumb of an incredibly oppressive and corrupt local government which was essentially an organized crime operation whose sole purpose was to strip residents of cash and used intimidation and incarceration to do it.

I know the usual suspect will accuse me of my usual false equivalence, but I see the same thing happening on this issue. Those supporting the occupiers are using their perceptions of history between the occupiers and their supposed supporters and the government as justification for the trespass/occupation.

I don't hold myself immune from this. I simply don't see any justification in current American history for occupation of anything by anyone who doesn't own it. That's true whether it's Justin Herman Plaza in San Francisco, Alcatraz Island by native Americans, or an abandoned facility in Oregon. The use of extra-governmental force threatens a free society, wherever we use that force.

Yes, it is false equivalence and not simply a matter of perception - the people of Ferguson, African and Native Americans in particular - have suffered explicit and enduring exploitation and abuse enabled by government. Occupy was a grassroots response to the clear and pervasive rigging of our financial system to benefit the few over the many which continues unabated and without restraint as we write these words.

The above are very real injuries whereas the common complaints of angry bigoted, racist, sexist and homophobic white men the nation over - but particularly in the south and west - are perceptions driven and fueled by hate and a persecution complex which is largely the result of an inability to deal with the reality of white males now having to 'share' their [economic] world with women and minorities.

That recognition of women's and civil rights coincided with the mass exodus of manufacturing jobs and the demise of the notion of a career-and-pension-for-life simply added fuel to the fire of that sense of persecution. But if you dig into the lives of almost all these far right extremists - particularly out west - you invariably find they are living off federal largess in some form or another and their real problem is one of entitlement and a longing for a return to the days when women and minorities could be denied equal rights with impunity.

And the saddest part is it's guys like Donald Trump are the one's who are both f*#king them and then stirring them up to vote against their own economic interests. But then nothing new there; the gop has played middle-age white males like a fiddle for the last fifty years with increasingly shrill rhetoric and actions like these and attacks on mosques are a direct result of that political pandering. Winemaker summed that up succinctly on the DT thread:


Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 4, 2016 - 07:53pm PT
Oregon activists picked the wrong battle, militia leaders say

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/oregon-activists-picked-the-wrong-battle-militia-leaders-say/ar-AAgmarO?li=BBnb7Kz


© REUTERS/Jim Urquhart

Self-styled militia members who seized federal property in rural Oregon in an effort to galvanize opposition to the U.S. government appear to have made a tactical error - potential allies say they picked the wrong battle.

As armed anti-government activists occupied a snowy wildlife refuge for a third day to call attention to a land-use dispute, militia leaders from similar groups across the country criticized the seizure of federal land and a building.

The protesters have said they aim "to restore and defend the Constitution" to protect the rights of ranchers and ignite a national debate about states' rights and federal land-use policy they hope could ultimately force the federal government to release tracts of Western land.

Their occupation of the headquarters of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge comes as the number of paramilitary groups is on the rise in the United States, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center, a legal advocacy group that tracks their numbers.

But the latest call to arms appears to have failed to resonate with like-minded groups whose support would be crucial for creating a coalition of armed militia members substantial enough to thwart a law enforcement operation.

"There's a better way to go about things," said Brandon Curtiss, president of Three Percent of Idaho, a militia group that has been involved in the dispute. "If you want to make a change like that, you need to get the county citizens behind you to go through the proper channels."

The protesters have rallied behind Oregon ranchers Dwight Hammond Jr. and Steven Hammond, who were found guilty of arson on public land near their property. They were initially sentenced to 12 months in prison, below the federal minimum for arson, but a U.S. judge raised the sentences to five years.

The Hammonds, who turned themselves in as planned on Monday at a federal prison in California, have said they do not support the protesters or their leader, Ammon Bundy, whose father, Cliven Bundy, was at the center of a 2014 standoff with the government over grazing rights in Nevada that ended with federal agents backing down in the face of about 1,000 armed militiamen, many on horseback.

The Pacific Patriot Network, an umbrella group for militias in the region, said it did not support seizing federal property even if it understood the underlying frustration with the federal government. "This land use issue is decades old and it's boiling up in frustration. That's what you're seeing," spokesman Joseph Rice said.

The Oath Keepers, another paramilitary group that participated in the 2014 Bundy ranch dispute in Nevada, also distanced itself from the latest standoff.

'WISH TO HELL HE HADN'T DONE THIS'

Some militia leaders said Bundy was using the dispute to provoke the federal government with little regard for the local community.

"Here you have a guy who believes he's on a mission from God. What the Hammonds want and what the community wants is immaterial," said Mike Vanderboegh, a founder of the III Percent Movement, which draws its name from the notion that only 3 percent of Americans actively participated in the Revolutionary War.



Vanderboegh and other leaders said they worried Bundy would provoke a violent response from the U.S. government similar to the 1993 siege of the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas, that ended in the deaths of 76 people.

Three Obama administration officials said federal authorities had been told to avoid a violent confrontation, in line with official U.S. policy after the deadly clashes at Waco and in 1992 at Ruby Ridge, Idaho

Armed U.S. paramilitary groups, which had been on the wane since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, have seen their ranks swell in recent years, driven by fears among the far right that President Barack Obama will threaten gun ownership and erode local rights.

The movement has also been energized by confrontations between ranchers, miners and federal regulators in the Western United States, where the government owns vast stretches of land.

The Southern Poverty Law Center estimates there are 276 active militia groups today, one-third more than before last year's standoff.

The latest incident began after militia groups from Oregon and Idaho staged a peaceful march in the nearby city of Burns on Saturday to protest what they see as heavy-handed management by bureaucrats with little interest in local concerns.

Other militia leaders declined to question Bundy's motives but said he stood little chance of getting the federal government to back down.

"If you want me to demonize this guy, I won't do it," said Bob Wright, a commander of the New Mexico Militia.

"But I wish to hell he hadn't done this," he said. (Reporting by Andy Sullivan in Washington; Editing by Jason Szep and Peter Cooney
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:11pm PT
They should just ignore those clowns.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:20pm PT
The only ones with a sovereign 'right' or grievance sufficient to warrant an armed occupation of that building are the Paiutes and even they, despite a century and a half of genocide and persecution, are using the judicial and legislative system of the nation which flat out stole those lands to address their complaints.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:23pm PT
wBraun! Re your comment:
Those guys are standing in the cold so you stoopid do nothing pussy finger wagging crankloons have something to bitch about ......


Good!

Let the stupid, soon to be ex-communicated, Mormon & idiot radicals, freeze in the dark. It will be good for your fellow-ducks on the refuge.

OH! SCHIST!

If I was the head "heavy-handed" government person responding to the Yeh-Hawdists, I would cut electricity & phone lines to their HQ too.

The hated government is being way to nice to those terrorists.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:25pm PT
Those guys are standing in the cold so you stoopid do nothing pussy finger wagging crankloons have something to bitch about ......

Apparently, ducky. The only ones standing in the cold are reporters.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:25pm PT
These poor stupertopo softmen yapping about dumbshits in the cold so the wernerloons have something to bitch about.

Hypocrite much? geez dude, give it a rest. It's unbecoming.


But I am glad it's helping the Ducks.
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:28pm PT
I saw a link that indicated that one of the Bundy sons took a significant SBA loan for his trucking business...

Typical hypocrite. The government is just fine when it does the things you want and particularly when you use it to become wealthier.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:30pm PT
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/01/ammon-bundy-oregon-protest-sba-loan
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:41pm PT
Lorenzo: Thanks for the link from Mother Jones.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/01/ammon-bundy-oregon-protest-sba-loan

Mormon polygamists call ripping the government off for welfare, government loans that are never repaid, & any other kind of government support: Bleeding The Beast.

Looks like Ammon Bundy is good at both bleeding & challenging the beast. But will he fight the beast?


Ammon Bundy runs a Phoenix-based company called Valet Fleet Services LLC, which specializes in repairing and maintaining fleets of semitrucks throughout Arizona.

On April 15, 2010—Tax Day, as it happens—Bundy's business borrowed $530,000 through a Small Business Administration loan guarantee program. The available public record does not indicate what the loan was used for or whether it was repaid. The SBA website notes that this loan guarantee was issued under a program "to aid small businesses which are unable to obtain financing in the private credit marketplace."

The government estimated that this subsidy could cost taxpayers $22,419. Bundy did not respond to an email request for comment about the SBA loan.
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:44pm PT
*
I can't believe no one has put up this video..It speaks for itself.
[Click to View YouTube Video]


nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:52pm PT
Fritz.. reading that makes me want to vomit. Here I am about to quit my 8 year day job to start up a business. We're boot strapping a brick and mortar business. If there's one thing I believe more than anything is the way we'll use the technology (small unmanned aircraft) is that we can save lives. And the last thing either of us (Pagan monkey boy being my biz partner) wants is outside money from any source. You give us $500K right now and we'll turn that into a business that's pulling in 100 times that in five years. These people make me sick because they are as un-American (not anti-) as it gets.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:54pm PT
Jon Ritzheimer should read the ENTIRE constitution.
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Jan 4, 2016 - 08:59pm PT
*

Nature... i'll give you an amen...
and, good luck with your new business..


Jon Ritzheimer should read the ENTIRE constitution.
Yup...
and

Jon Ritzheimer should be at home taking care of his family.... what a pathetic fool...
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:02pm PT
'Y'all Qaeda'

I love it!

I will say that the Hammonds have acted honorably in this, turning themselves in, and turning the head down on what looked to have violence potential.

They deserve credit for that, and should get a significant sentence reduction. We are safer with them out of prison, than in.

nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:09pm PT
Ken M +1


Edit: The Bundy's on the other hand....
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:11pm PT
Laws are currently on the docket to reduce time served for mandatory sentences beyond the current 47 days a year for good behavior.

Pending Bills in the 114th Congress:

There have been several bills introduced in the 114th Congress that would increase good time or earned time credit:

Prisoner Incentive Act (H.R. 1252) (Scott): Introduced by Rep. Bobby Scott, this bill, if passed, would fix the technical error in 18 U.S.C. section 3624 so that prisoners can earn a full 54 days of good time credit each year if they obey prison rules and are well-behaved. FAMM supports this bill. This bill is not a law. We do not know if or when they will become law. To become a law, a bill must be passed by both houses of Congress and signed by the President. Every year, thousands of bills are introduced in Congress, but very few become law.

CORRECTIONS Act (S. 467) (Cornyn/Whitehouse): Introduced by Senators John Cornyn (R-TX) and Sheldon Whitehouse (D-RI), this bill, if passed, would require the federal Bureau of Prisons to classify federal prisoners as being at high, medium, or low risk of reoffending and permit some offenders to earn time credits that could be used so that the person spends more time in a halfway house, on home confinement, or under community supervision at the end of their sentences. This bill is not a law. We do not know if or when they will become law. To become a law, a bill must be passed by both houses of Congress and signed by the President. Every year, thousands of bills are introduced in Congress, but very few become law.

Recidivism Risk Reduction Act (H.R. 759) (Chaffetz/Gowdy/Richmond/Jeffries): Introduced by Reps. Jason Chaffetz (R-UT), Trey Gowdy (R-SC), Cedric Richmond (D-LA), and Hakeem Jeffries (D-NY), this bill, if passed, would require the federal Bureau of Prisons to classify federal prisoners as being at high, medium, or low risk of reoffending and permit some offenders to earn time credits that could be used so that the person spends more time in a halfway house, on home confinement, or under community supervision at the end of their sentences. This bill is not a law. We do not know if or when they will become law. To become a law, a bill must be passed by both houses of Congress and signed by the President. Every year, thousands of bills are introduced in Congress, but very few become law.

With the Supreme Court refusing the writ of certiorari, their only other Hope is clemency from Obama. Now wouldn't that be ironic.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 4, 2016 - 09:12pm PT
Ritzheimer is a real piece of work, he is a classic example of these guys

The FogBow has a huge database about these various Sovcits (sovereign citizens) There is a few of them

http://thefogbow.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=26

They have this thread about him

http://thefogbow.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=8203&hilit=ritzheimer
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:28pm PT
^^^^^^All out Loon convention. Show a little more hatred morons.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:32pm PT
Jon: Thanks for the link on Ritztts-Weiler.

I went to Iraq again in 2008 and lived out of an MRAP for 5 months without a shower. We were not shot at even once during the time we lived outside the wire. After returning from this deployment I decided to use my 9-11 GI bill and attended Grossmont College.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:41pm PT
rick? I never thought you slow, but your comeback is lacking.

All out Loon convention. Show a little more hatred morons.


Are you supporting the Yeh-heydist idiots?

Or do you just want to spew?
WBraun

climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:43pm PT
We don't support them but you're all still a bunch a stoopid finger waggin hypocrite morons ....
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:47pm PT
ah yes!

and you sir, are a paranoid duck.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:48pm PT
Dude, you ran away to the Valley never to return; so what exactly looks back at you when you look in the mirror?

P.S. trademark that phrase - it basically only exists here on ST because of you...

crankloon
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:49pm PT
duck with a finger
dirtbag

climber
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:55pm PT
^^^^^^All out Loon convention. Show a little more hatred morons.


How come you aren't at Malheur?
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 4, 2016 - 09:59pm PT
Not loon season?
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jan 4, 2016 - 10:08pm PT
The real Crank Klune:


Russ Klune on Vandals 5.13a, Skytop - Gunks.
(Linked from Pinterest, can't find photog name)
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jan 4, 2016 - 10:12pm PT
Cowboys occupying Indian land, basically.
Dave Davis

Social climber
Seattle, WA
Jan 4, 2016 - 10:19pm PT
How do these wankers find time for militia activities? Don't any of them work? Just wondering.....
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 4, 2016 - 10:22pm PT
Ammon Bundy took out a half million + SBA loan. I guess he bought the generator with some of it. There wasn't enough left over for snacks.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Jan 4, 2016 - 10:40pm PT
You know Dirt, I don't know who is stupider-the Malheur malcontents or the audience.

d-know

Trad climber
electric lady land
Jan 4, 2016 - 10:44pm PT
No, just you
N-rig Sumner.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 4, 2016 - 11:13pm PT
These guys remind me of this
[Click to View YouTube Video]
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 04:36am PT
nita- That video is amazing. This guy clearly thought he was going to die in a gun fight with the Feds and he was ready to leave his daughters behind to do it. Someone needs to point that guy in the right direction.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Jan 5, 2016 - 05:04am PT
Another Cabelas sponsored pose off...
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Jan 5, 2016 - 05:31am PT
Cabelas militia wear line?

i like mine paired with constitutional underwear and a Happy Meal
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 05:38am PT

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 06:25am PT
John posted
The DOJ report nonetheless accounts for the vehemence of the response to the shooting, and also explains why so many people didn't consider the particular facts in that particular shooting as important as the larger history.

I know the usual suspect will accuse me of my usual false equivalence, but I see the same thing happening on this issue. Those supporting the occupiers are using their perceptions of history between the occupiers and their supposed supporters and the government as justification for the trespass/occupation.

No, your point was already made several times by myself and others. Still, you have to be really committed to not seeing the problem if you can't see the differences in the way that both the media and the government handles a bunch of armed white guys taking a government building (and making statements how they are willing to die for their cause, even leaving "goodbye" videos to that end) by force and a bunch of mostly black people holding unarmed protests. Likewise, the grievances of people who think the government is oppressing them because of their sense of entitlement versus actual, documented oppression. It's absurd.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Jan 5, 2016 - 06:35am PT
The government let Cliven "Let me tell you one more thing I know about the Negro" Bundy off in '14, which obviously emboldened these anti-government extremists.

These lawless militants need to face legal consequences.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 5, 2016 - 06:46am PT
Per this link, the electricity & phone to the Yeh-hawdists gets turned off, and the road gets blocked today.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/authorities-plan-to-cut-off-power-to-militia-at-occupied-oregon-refuge/ar-AAgnu3F?li=BBnb7Kz

Bundy has repeatedly said the group is prepared for the long-haul. However during a tour of the site on earlier in the day, the Guardian was shown a food storage room that did not look like it could sustain a dozen men for more than a few weeks.

It included a cardboard box of apples and oranges, a few dozen pots of instant ramen, 24 cans of chicken noodle soup, a similar number of cans of sweetcorn, peas, beans and chili, and 20 boxes of macaroni and cheese.

There were also three sacks of potatoes, one bag of flour, another of rolled oats, boxes of raisins, a single bag of pretzels and one granola bar.

I'm sure they will relish the suffering, for a while.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 06:51am PT
It's taken them this long to turn off the power? Their clockwork Hans Gruber plan has gone awry!!!


tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jan 5, 2016 - 06:57am PT
there really is no need to throw the race card into this. it's apples and oranges. Urban protest Vs wackos in the middle of no where.

The driveing force here is .

1. Govt is deathly afraid of mayrtering these guys and starting a real civil war.

2. these guys are patheticaly ineffective posers. If they were to actually fire those guns instead of just dressing up like comandos and takeing selfies the game would change dramaticly.

HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Jan 5, 2016 - 07:02am PT
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 5, 2016 - 07:06am PT
If they die during yeehawd they get to sleep with 72 cousins.
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Jan 5, 2016 - 07:07am PT
After a stay at Y'allcatraz
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 07:07am PT
Why can't Obama just come out and decry Radical American Extremism? Why with the political correctness? It's literally killing us.


Here is radical American extremist John Ritzheimer wielding his text of hate and violence:



Apologists will say it laws down a foundation for love and freedom but the only country that worships it has perpetrated mass genocide and is still the only nation to use atomic weapons. I think it's clear what the true meaning of that book is.
MattB

Trad climber
Tucson
Jan 5, 2016 - 07:21am PT
Really not impossible for them to live out there indefinitely..

Tons of birds and fish, no population or economy anywhere nearby thus no real "threat". And that building is pretty swank..


I think maybe the Yosemite stables, maybe Ahwahnee would make a sweet homestead. And I own them, right?
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Jan 5, 2016 - 07:25am PT
If they die during yeehawd they get to sleep with 72 cousins.

that's hilarious!

I'm thinking we dress Burchy in Carharts and put him in charge of the Valley takeover. Locker can be minister of disinformation.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 5, 2016 - 07:41am PT
Fritz.. reading that makes me want to vomit. Here I am about to quit my 8 year day job to start up a business. We're boot strapping a brick and mortar business. If there's one thing I believe more than anything is the way we'll use the technology (small unmanned aircraft) is that we can save lives. And the last thing either of us (Pagan monkey boy being my biz partner) wants is outside money from any source. You give us $500K right now and we'll turn that into a business that's pulling in 100 times that in five years. These people make me sick because they are as un-American (not anti-) as it gets.


Good luck with that. Let me know how easy it is to wade through the morass of regulations, decrees, compliance, fees and payola required to big daddy .gov in order to start a business and begin paying income taxes. Hope you aren't successful. (Is that the modern day business version of "break a leg"?)

Oh, and don't forget that your drone needs to be properly registered in order to fly. Oops, you didn't realize that the registration sticker was lead and weighs 25 pounds including the adhesive backing? Bummer, I guess they needed to pass it in order to know what was in it.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 5, 2016 - 07:43am PT
Wow, did anybody listen to that streaming audio from Ritzheimer on the Fogbow link Jon Beck provided a couple pages back??

Wow. He certainly sounds..A.N.G.R.Y.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 5, 2016 - 07:53am PT
Good luck with that. Let me know how easy it is to wade through the morass of regulations, decrees, compliance, fees and payola required to big daddy .gov in order to start a business...

It's impossible! That's why you never see any businesses around ANYWHERE!
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 07:55am PT


The people of Ferguson lived - lived - every day under the thumb of an incredibly oppressive and corrupt local government which was essentially an organized crime operation whose sole purpose was to strip residents of cash and used intimidation and incarceration to do it.

Exactly.


nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 5, 2016 - 07:59am PT
interesting article Fritz. But I thought I read on the internet that there were no Feds on scene. This thread in fact. I read it on the internet so it has to be true. And now another story contradicts that. so confused.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 5, 2016 - 08:15am PT
When Ritzheimer was asking for snacks, he said they didn't need money, but that if people wanted to send it, they should link to this site:

http://www.rogueinfidel.com

It opens with the banner

Leading the fight against Islam
Between that and the captain Moroni thing, it's a bit odd nobody is mentioning the religious component.
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Jan 5, 2016 - 08:16am PT
there really is no need to throw the race card into this. it's apples and oranges. Urban protest Vs wackos in the middle of no where.

I totally disagree. Remember this?

I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Black people, muslims, Mexicans and other south American peoples should all be totally pissed off as there is no liberty and justice for all.

An unarmed black man selling single cigarettes is choked to death in NY, a black kid with a toy gun is shot by police. I can go on and on.

Republicans running for office and currently in office (and some dem.s) actually discriminating against muslims.

Trump insulting Mexicans. The list goes on and on and on.

If you don't believe that the government response would be different if these guys were black or muslim or Mexican, then you are not seeing the current state of affairs in the USA today. During the previous Bundy debacle, these white terrorists pointed guns at federal agents who were trying to uphold the law and the government did nothing about it. Meanwhile in more situations than I can recount here, black people who were posing no threat to anyone were killed by law enforcement.

I challenge anyone to point out the justice and liberty in those comparisons. It makes me sick to think about.



Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 08:27am PT
I heard on NPR this morning that they have stated that if the county population does not support their being there, they will leave(and most in the county do not support their actions).

Of course, they will then probably hunker down and turn the debacle into a "learnable Mistake," and start planning on a more appropriate objective.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 5, 2016 - 08:33am PT
You know, there is other news in the world - it's raining in La-La Land!
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 08:34am PT
tradman posted
there really is no need to throw the race card into this. it's apples and oranges. Urban protest Vs wackos in the middle of no where.

Perhaps you mean the issue is black and white? The feds are responding appropriately given the history of Waco and Ruby Ridge. The point is that they do not respond in this manner in other circumstances. The rules change.


The driveing force here is .

1. Govt is deathly afraid of mayrtering these guys and starting a real civil war.

Nobody thinks a civil war is at stake here but they are certainly learning their lessons from previous events.


2. these guys are patheticaly ineffective posers. If they were to actually fire those guns instead of just dressing up like comandos and takeing selfies the game would change dramaticly.

So you're suggesting that we ignore armed people who claim they are willing to die opposing America? How many poser gangster pictures/videos did TGT/Chief post trying to justify the brutal treatment of black Americans by police?
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 5, 2016 - 08:34am PT
One reason nothing has happened is the remoteness of the area. 7000 residents in 10000 square miles. The Sheriff has 7 officers, the Burns police have 3. Not even enough men to block the roads to Malheur (4 roads). Those facts and the holidays have delayed the response. The Feds are going to have to deal with this with manpower brought in from hundreds of miles a away. There is no reason to act swiftly and make mistakes. They can cut power, could even disable their cellphone accounts. Lack of attention will smoke them out quicker than tear gas. The noose will tighten, I predict that these idiots will leave non-chalantly like nothing happened and there will be an outcry about excessive government power when they get arrested.

zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 08:37am PT
We're planning a YokelsOnly invasion of the Camp Pendleton Beach this month. Join us or don't, but if you don't, don't whine when they come for your National Parks Senior Passes.



Surfers are being punished for an "outside the ring" fire they started over 15 years ago, they have spent upwards to $1.50 in their legal defense. They have exhausted all their avenues in the federal court system. They have used up every bit of emotion and will they possessed. (From what I’m being told, the Surfers at one time were valiant fighters for what is right). Many cannot believe they have given up. But the system has broken them. The Surfers have exhausted prudence over many years. They are the epitome of what Americans will become if the system is allowed to ruin all of us.

-Amen ButtHole Surfer


The RogueInfidels have graciously allowed us to utilize their website to collect gas money to get over there to Pendleton.

http://www.rogueinfidel.com/





EDIT FOR CLARITY:

Free the Camp Pendleton Beach from the Obama Lackey Marines of FedGovt




HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 08:47am PT
zBrown you have thoroughly confused me.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 5, 2016 - 08:55am PT
You know, there is other news in the world - it's raining in La-La Land!

Don't panic. It will end by 11:00AM.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 5, 2016 - 09:02am PT
Rogue Infidels have "Leading The Fight Against Islam" and "Preserve All Freedoms" on the same page.

That's f*#king priceless......
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jan 5, 2016 - 09:06am PT
1. yes i do believe that the feds are afraid of giveing these ass clowns an excuse to be become mayrters and fuel the flames of a white conservative vs liberal armed conflict. the movement is totally fringe at this time and they would like to keep it that way. Giveing them annother waco or ruby ridge is not in their or our bests intrests. This is not white privledge as much as it is stratedgy.

2. these guys are pathetic posers/losers makeing their stand in the middle of nowhere. Pull the same sh#t in an urban area, burn a few cop cars and loot a few drugstores and you would most certainly get your equal rights heavy handed response.
Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Jan 5, 2016 - 09:08am PT
So here is what I currently think about this issue. Of course what I think might change as more information comes in. Being willing to change your mind is important in objective analysis and I try to be objective but it is difficult for humans to be objective. I do understand that the truth is extremely complex and hard to know. I also know that pretty much nobody here is really interested my opinion but I feel like spouting off too. I really don’t care if you agree or disagree but if you have reliable information (data) that I haven’t considered, I would like to see it.

I grew up in the rural west. I've seen a lot of it up close. Dad (stepfather) was a field man for the USGS topographic division and worked in the seven western states. He would be assigned to some small town in the middle of nowhere to fill in the map info that they couldn't get from aerial photos. When he finished in one area, we would move on to the next. We usually moved twice a year - north in the summer and south in the winter. Sometimes we moved as many as 4 times a year. I went to 26 different grade schools as small as eight grades in two rooms with 25 kids. I have worked on farms and cattle ranches. Some of the best people I have ever met live in these little towns. I know honest, hardworking men and women who will melt your heart in these towns. I am a fourth generation northern Idahonian and born into a large family of farmers, loggers and blue collar workers. I was born in Bonners Ferry because Moyie Springs is too small to have a doctor. Of my 26 maternal first cousins only three earned a university degree. (My brother and I have MS degrees and one cousin has a PhD) I think I know a little bit about rural western America.

I have lived in Burns and have spent time in the Steens Mountains and the Malheur Wildlife Refuge. Burns was a logging and sawmill town but that industry has died. My brother and I recall Burns as the least friendly town we ever lived in. It is the only town that I can think of that I don't recall a single friendly kid. A town I recall as being full of unhappy people. The area does have a history of land grabbing cattle barons. The most famous was Peter French who was shot dead over a fence disagreement – the current conflict is really about fences. The man who shot French was found not guilty.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_French

The population in the USA is rapidly urbanizing as money and jobs leave the farm. Blue collar jobs have also nearly vanished from the economy. There are still a lot of high paying jobs but they are in places like Palo Alto and require specialized and advanced university degrees. These are jobs that often cannot be filled due to a lack of qualified people. I know of a company that pays summer student interns $2000 a week with lodging, meals and transportation but has trouble finding qualified people. The rural middle class feels disenfranchised and is pissed off. Rather than moving to the city and getting an education relevant to the current economy, some of them are taking up guns and what amounts to terrorism.

The disenfranchised rural population and the unemployed blue collar population are attracted to Trump and the republicans in general because they are hearing what they want to hear which is not necessarily reality. These people have lost touch with the modern world or perhaps the modern world has lost touch with them.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/12/12/the-four-basic-reasons-that-explain-why-donald-trump-actually-is-so-popular/

The Hammonds have threatened and terrorized federal officials and their families which, to me, is a crime. They don't like the law but the founding fathers knew that laws sometimes need to change and there are ways provided to do so that don't require guns and armed conflict. The problem is that the change requires a sympathetic majority and the majority is urban and swinging left. It is interesting that only one of the largest cities in the US has a republican mayor (San Diego oddly). Even Texas elects Democratic mayors.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/01/kevin-faulconer-mayor/422316/

The Hammonds and the Bundys will draw their supporters but their supporters will be a small minority. The vast majority probably isn’t even interested in this but when they start shooting; I suspect the uprising will be crushed. It seems like these people really, really want the shooting to start. It seems like they want to be martyred. Perhaps they expect 12 virgins.

This 1995 article gives some background on the Hammond conflict. It’s long but read it.


http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/01/05/showdown-in-the-malheur-marshes-the-origins-of-the-armed-occupation-in-burns-oregon/
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 09:16am PT
Thanks for all the resources, Banquo.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 5, 2016 - 09:21am PT
Great post Banqou, thanks. It is interesting to note that NPR interviewed Les Zaitz, a cattleman/journalist from the Burns area and he specifically said that although they are very conservative in that area, they also reject Trump, I was surprised.

Quote It is interesting that only one of the largest cities in the US has a republican mayor (San Diego oddly)Here

Funny thing is that the SD mayor accused his opponents of playing dirty politics when they called him out as a Republican. The right would call him a RINO, he is pro-choice and always supported gay marriage. He got elected for his conservative position on the public pension debacle that has SD in a 2 billion dollar hole. San Diego was called Enron by the Sea

I think San Diego is majority Democrat, but people do not always vote the party line in local elections.
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Jan 5, 2016 - 09:22am PT
1. yes i do believe that the feds are afraid of giveing these ass clowns an excuse to be become mayrters and fuel the flames of a white conservative vs liberal armed conflict. the movement is totally fringe at this time and they would like to keep it that way. Giveing them annother waco or ruby ridge is not in their or our bests intrests. This is not white privledge as much as it is stratedgy.

I understand what you are saying. However, the fact remains, that in the earlier Bundy clash in Nevada, some militia were pointing guns at federal agents who were acting in accordance with the law and nothing was done.

Meanwhile, multiple unarmed and unthreatening black people in urban areas are getting shot. If these guys were black or muslim or Syrian descent or Mexican descent you can bet your ass that the response would not be the same.

You said it yourself, race and politics are steering the American department of justice without regards to the laws of the land and that makes me sick.



michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 5, 2016 - 09:22am PT
Wait, Ya'll Queda only get 12 virgins? They sure f*#ked up in picking their religion.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 09:24am PT
Can anyone honestly pretend that an enclave of Mexican-Americans who had been grazing cattle on federal land without paying the proper fees would get the same treatment? Some Bubba's buddy at the government office would have handled that sh#t a long time ago and if they resisted with the threat of force it would be a sh#t show. These guys are at the pinnacle of white entitlement.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Jan 5, 2016 - 09:27am PT
^ or a tribe taking back their hunting lands, instead of living on the crappy land they were forced to live on (the Rez)?

the Feds are officially pussies.
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Jan 5, 2016 - 09:27am PT
Wait, Ya'll Queda only get 12 virgins? They sure f*#ked up in picking their religion.

Word on the street is that it's seventy-two cousins.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 5, 2016 - 09:32am PT
Wait, Ya'll Queda only get 12 virgins? They sure f*#ked up in picking their religion.

That's all they could find among 72 cousins.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 5, 2016 - 09:44am PT
^ or a tribe taking back their hunting lands, instead of living on the crappy land they were forced to live on (the Rez)?

the Feds are officially pussies.

Holy Crap, Some of you retards are worse than the Bundys. That statement is as bad as Bundy fighting the government using his SBA funding.

Good grief.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jan 5, 2016 - 09:51am PT
Good post Banquo.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 5, 2016 - 09:55am PT
Another link to the death of Peter French.


http://gesswhoto.com/sheriff-harney4.html
dirtbag

climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 09:59am PT
Good post, banquo.

As usual, "High Country News" has excellent coverage of the Malheur events.

http://www.hcn.org/articles/oregon-occupation-at-wildlife-refuge

http://www.hcn.org/articles/photos-from-the-oregon-refuge-standoff-Hammonds-Burns

http://www.hcn.org/articles/modern-sagebrush-rebels-recycle-old-western-fantasies
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Jan 5, 2016 - 09:59am PT
This tempest in a teapot is being played out in the fifth least-populated of Oregon's counties, called Harney County. I've known about the Harney Desert and Steen's Mtn. and the Malheur Refuge since the days I first began climbing, though I have never gotten to visit the place and would love to sometime.

I did some checking and it turns out that Harney County is named for Brigadier-General William S. Harney, commanding the Dept. of Oregon in the year 1859, the year of the Pig War. The Big War, the one to keep the slaves in slavery, came 2 yrs. later.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_War

What will the Wikipedia have to say about the Y'all Quaeda Incident in another hundred years is what I'm wondering.

Something like this?

"This conflict was fought in the media. The media won hands down. Since then, the land has gone over to total private ownership since all the wildfowl have become extinct due to typical human error and mis-calculation and neglect."
--MachineWiki
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Jan 5, 2016 - 10:07am PT
That's all they could find among 72 cousins.

maybe they do the 'born again virgin' thing. ya know, pray to jebus and you are a virgin again!
John M

climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 10:12am PT
Great post Banquo.

I do wonder about this though..

The population in the USA is rapidly urbanizing as money and jobs leave the farm. Blue collar jobs have also nearly vanished from the economy. There are still a lot of high paying jobs but they are in places like Palo Alto and require specialized and advanced university degrees. These are jobs that often cannot be filled due to a lack of qualified people. I know of a company that pays summer student interns $2000 a week with lodging, meals and transportation but has trouble finding qualified people. The rural middle class feels disenfranchised and is pissed off. Rather than moving to the city and getting an education relevant to the current economy, some of them are taking up guns and what amounts to terrorism.

I doubt that the vast majority of these people are capable of doing that, even if they wanted to.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 10:12am PT
Escopeta posted
Holy Crap, Some of you retards are worse than the Bundys. That statement is as bad as Bundy fighting the government using his SBA funding.

Good grief.


I don't think you understood his point.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 5, 2016 - 10:13am PT
No, your point was already made several times by myself and others. Still, you have to be really committed to not seeing the problem if you can't see the differences in the way that both the media and the government handles a bunch of armed white guys taking a government building (and making statements how they are willing to die for their cause, even leaving "goodbye" videos to that end) by force and a bunch of mostly black people holding unarmed protests. Likewise, the grievances of people who think the government is oppressing them because of their sense of entitlement versus actual, documented oppression. It's absurd.

The problem with the "unarmed protests" is that the "protesters" were actively harming their community and weren't exactly nonviolent. If the Branch Stupidians/ Infanttada participants (thank you, El Cap) were in an urban area, looting, destroying vehicles and buildings and threatening the safety and livelihoods of ordinary citizens, you bet the response would be different. The difference has much more to do with location than race.

I still like Gary's suggestion the best. If we leave them alone and the press ignores them, we have an effectively self-supporting federal detention center. We can always keep them under drone surveilance, and arrest each as he or she leaves. It's so close to a free lunch it scares me.

John
MattB

Trad climber
Tucson
Jan 5, 2016 - 10:19am PT
Banquo said

So here is what I currently think about this issue. Of course what I think might change as more information comes in. Being willing to change your mind is important in objective analysis and I try to be objective but it is difficult for humans to be objective. I do understand that the truth is extremely complex and hard to know. I also know that pretty much nobody here is really interested my opinion but I feel like spouting off too. I really don’t care if you agree or disagree but if you have reliable information (data) that I haven’t considered, I would like to see it.


That's a perfect preface to a very good argument/explanation ... best take on the situation micro and macro

John M

climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 10:21am PT
Just a reminder JohnE, much of the looting started after the police tried to break them up with tear gas.

I wonder what would happen in Oregon if riot clad police showed up in force. Would something start. My guess is that it would. One side or the other would start it.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 5, 2016 - 10:25am PT
Banquo, if I may expand on John M's point in Post 400, above, here in the Big Raisin, we often read stories about how thousands of good jobs in Fresno County go unfilled because we lack the qualified workforce. These stories appear not only in the sadly diminished Fresno Bee, but in national newpapers such as the New York Times and Washington Post.

These jobs don't require a college degree, but they require specialized training or skills and what we used to call high school graduate-level literacy. They also require the sorts of work habits that most working particpants on this forum take for granted, such as showing up on time and dependably, and doing your job.

Blue-collar jobs haven't disappeared, but the sorts of entry-level jobs that lead to a good blue-collar job have become increasingly difficult to find in high-cost California. Sad to say, our push to a $15.00 minimum wage here (based on the much higher Bay Area cost of living) won't help the disappearance of those jobs here and, I suspect, elsewhere in this state.

John
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 10:27am PT
John posted
The problem with the "unarmed protests" is that the "protesters" were actively harming their community and weren't exactly nonviolent. If the Branch Stupidians/ Infanttada participants (thank you, El Cap) were in an urban area, looting, destroying vehicles and buildings and threatening the safety and livelihoods of ordinary citizens, you bet the response would be different. The difference has much more to do with location than race.

You mean like if they were pointing armed weapons at federal agents?



Too bad he ran away before anyone could find out who he was.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Oh wait here's a video of him talking about how he thinks it was good there were kids wandering around in the middle of the standoff.

John, you're fooling yourself if you think it's just a matter of location or behavior. BLM protesters were almost entirely peaceful and there were unfortunately a fraction of the people involved (literally anyone can march in a street) became violent. It's condescending to put "protesters" in quotes when referring to them. They were protesters. I'm not sure why you are so committed to being dismissive of what those people were overcoming. It is a miracle that it wasn't more violent.

Additionally, this type of response has shown to be completely ineffective at maintaining peace as was learned in the Seattle WTO protests. The Ferguson government had developed a completely predatory relationship with it's citizenry and when they finally marched those in power knew exactly what they were in for and responded ready for war.

10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Jan 5, 2016 - 10:37am PT
I still like Gary's suggestion the best. If we leave them alone and the press ignores them, we have an effectively self-supporting federal detention center. We can always keep them under drone surveilance, and arrest each as he or she leaves. It's so close to a free lunch it scares me.

My understanding is that there aren't any LEOs to arrest anybody.

I don't buy the argument that the lack of jobs is a driving force behind this.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 5, 2016 - 10:38am PT
I don't think you understood his point.

Good lord I hope you're right.
Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Jan 5, 2016 - 10:38am PT
These jobs don't require a college degree, but they require specialized training or skills and what we used to call high school graduate-level literacy. They also require the sorts of work habits that most working particpants on this forum take for granted, such as showing up on time and dependably, and doing your job.

There are real problems in the job market and not all good jobs require an advanced degree. Try to hire a qualified tool and die maker. Admittedly, that trade may require more dedication to learn than a university degree.

If you are born into a wealthy family, you will probably be wealthy. If you were born poor, will will probably stay that way.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/economic-mobility-hasnt-changed-in-a-half-century-in-america-economists-declare/2014/01/22/e845db4a-83a2-11e3-8099-9181471f7aaf_story.html

There is hope. I taught engineering at SJSU for 30 years and there are a lot of kids from simple backgrounds that do make it. You can't imagine how happy it makes me to think I might have helped a few of them.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 5, 2016 - 10:41am PT
Just a reminder JohnE, much of the looting started after the police tried to break them up with tear gas.

I wonder what would happen in Oregon if riot clad police showed up in force. Would something start. My guess is that it would. One side or the other would start it.

That's why leaving them as a self-supporting prison camp is such a good idea.

I should also add that I experienced plenty of tear gas as a student at Berkeley from 1969-73, and whether white or black, the presence of riot police tends to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. To my knowledge, only one person was killed by law enforcement in Berkeley -- James Rector, who was white, but those shot were a much higher number.

I also found it ironic then that all the national attention was on the white students shot at Kent State. At least there was a mob potential there. The massacre at Jackson State, where law "enforcement" shot out every window on the side of a women's dormitory, and killed two black men with buckshot, got ignored. I understand how mobs inspire panic, which could make the Kent State shootings something other than premeditated murder.

Jackson State started with, allegedly, about 100 people throwing rocks at white motorists and interfering with firefighters, but the shootings occurred at a different part of campus. Evidence suggests that, at the time of the shooting, there were more LEO's present than members of the crowd they were allegedly controlling. In those days, I guess the MSM found a police killing of a white person big news; that of a black not so.

At least that double standard in press coverage has lessened, but that's also beside the point. It takes much greater restraint to keep riot police away from a large, angry crowd in a highly-populated urban area than it does to keep a bunch of angry people isolated in a thinly-populated rural area. I just wish the press would exercise the same restraint. These are idiots behaving like idiots -- dog bites man. If they start behaving like intelligent people, that could be news -- man bites dog.

John

Edit: HDDJ, I don't consider federal agents in a rural area "ordinary citizens."

fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 5, 2016 - 10:44am PT
I'm amused that people really think the Ferguson rioters were "unarmed"... lol

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 5, 2016 - 10:55am PT
Four generations of self entitled welfare cheats have helped to bankrupt US and most don't even know what the term national debt even means. Seriously, most of these idiots think it some sort of aggregate credit card liabilities.

We have people who refuse the low end jobs that people in other countries are more than willing to do. So is it any wonder that corporations are exporting jobs?




Now, can we please get back to Yee-haad! Those whacky street theater terrorists.


Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jan 5, 2016 - 11:01am PT
Bundy has repeatedly said the group is prepared for the long-haul. However during a tour of the site on earlier in the day, the Guardian was shown a food storage room that did not look like it could sustain a dozen men for more than a few weeks.

It included a cardboard box of apples and oranges, a few dozen pots of instant ramen, 24 cans of chicken noodle soup, a similar number of cans of sweetcorn, peas, beans and chili, and 20 boxes of macaroni and cheese.

There were also three sacks of potatoes, one bag of flour, another of rolled oats, boxes of raisins, a single bag of pretzels and one granola bar.

This doesn't account for the drone drops!
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jan 5, 2016 - 11:04am PT
In those days, I guess the MSM found a police killing of a white person big news; that of a black not so.

Hate to break it to you, John, but police killing of a black man is NOT news---there is nothing unusual, unique, or surprising about that.

This is why people protest, and post about it. It is not news in the traditional sense.

I like your concept of a self-funded federal prison!
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 5, 2016 - 11:09am PT
Try to hire a qualified tool and die maker.

Try to BE a qualified tool and die maker.

Nobody wants to pay to train them, and then they won't pay competitive salary and benefits.

Anybody who is skilled works for themselves on contract and makes three times the money.

Back in the 70's I had this discussion about carpenters when the going rate was $4 an hour and a company president uttered the line "you just can't get a good carpenter anymore"

I told him that was because a good carpenter won't work for somebody else for $4, and asked the president if he would work for that. He said of course not- he was a manager. So I told him if he wanted the work done, I hoped he could manage to put a tool belt on.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 5, 2016 - 11:13am PT
Four generations of self entitled welfare cheats have helped to bankrupt US

That has got to be the most ignorant statement of the week, and that is a low bar on ST.

FACT The biggest moochers are in rural America.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 5, 2016 - 11:17am PT
Nah. The biggest moochers are people who get virtually free water from any federal water project, and anybody who profits from the oil depletion allowance.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 11:17am PT
That's actually a really important point. The issue is entitlement. Most conservatives who decry welfare or government support are upset at the idea of people they don't think deserve it getting it. If America woke up tomorrow an entirely white nation the qualms about welfare would drop significantly. It's all about white entitlement.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 5, 2016 - 11:20am PT
I wouldn't argue that, Jon.

Colorado City is just down the road, some of the biggest cheats of all.



Just caught Capitan Moroni live, he tried to pull the speech that Shylock used in Merchant of Venice in order to garner sympathy, but failed to use iambic pentameter.




edit
Hell, even the climbing ethics wars are about entitlement.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 11:25am PT
I love you all. I love this thread. I love this whole thing.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 5, 2016 - 11:28am PT
Four generations of self entitled welfare cheats have helped to bankrupt US

I think it is unfair to label all western ranchers as welfare cheats. Just because they benefit from welfare doesn't mean they cheated.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 5, 2016 - 11:54am PT
HighDesertDJ - you should add "Check, and Mate" to the post with videos.
John M

climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 12:04pm PT
I should also add that I experienced plenty of tear gas as a student at Berkeley from 1969-73, and whether white or black, the presence of riot police tends to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I'm sorry John, but comparing your experience growing up white in a white dominated society and then getting tear gassed when you mostly trust the police, to that of blacks who have good reason to not trust the police is just not the same. When you can't have a basic trust in those who enforce the law, then you have a serious situation. Which is part of what this situation in Oregon is about. Can we trust the feds to bring fair justice or do they strong arm people…. And please people, I am not trying to justify what is happen right now in Oregon. I'm just pointing to some roots, which is what we should be talking about.

These guys are whack, but there is also a growing sense of mistrust of government. Is it legit? I think on some levels it is. The crazy tax codes and overbearing rules we live with are out of whack in my opinion. Are there also those who are playing on peoples fears and making problems appear bigger then they are? I would say "absolutely". We need to find middle ground where we can discuss what to do, rather then just continually placing blame. People do need to take responsibility for their part in things, but we can't keep focusing on blame.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 5, 2016 - 12:26pm PT
We need to find middle ground where we can discuss what to do, rather then just continually placing blame. People do need to take responsibility for their part in things, but we can't keep focusing on blame.

Amen, John. I think some of the mistrust of government comes from the trend where both parties are nominating more extreme, less centrist, candidates for public office. Those not affiliated with the party of the elected public servant in question end up feeling completely disenfranchised, whether its crazies in Oregon or a rational disaffection in Ferguson.

Maybe because I'm a Republican, I get bombarded by the arguments of the extremists, allegedly on the right. (I say "allegedly" because many of their positions oppose traditional conservative values such as the free movement of goods and people or separation of church and state). It sickens me to read the rants of those for whom compromise and treason form synonyms. Maybe Democrats get the same sort of stuff from the left; I hope not. We desperately need politicians who can be statesmen, too. (I'm sorry, but I don't know the politically correct term for "statesman" or "statesmanship." That may be an unintended consequence of treating "man" as exclusively male.)

I must say in that regard that the second incarnation of Jerry Brown as governor has done a surprisingly good job of trying to be the governor of all Californians. He's spent precious little time trying to find blame, and a lot of time looking for solutions. We need more politicians like that.

John
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 5, 2016 - 12:29pm PT
Sheesh, two level-headed unemotional posts in a row? WTF? I'm gonna comp each of you
a copy of my new book - The Growth Of Self-Serving Bureaucracy".
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Jan 5, 2016 - 12:34pm PT
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jan 5, 2016 - 12:40pm PT
I've been doing a little reading about this whole affair. The two ranchers got stuck in federal mandatory minimum sentences. The judge even said that the 5 year sentence was unfair.

Mandatory minimums came about in the 90's when congressmen all started campaigning against crime. The result has been huge sentences for small crimes. We need to revisit that legislation and change it. They passed the laws because they thought that judges were letting people off with lenient sentences. The result has been a disappointment.

So I am with the two ranchers here. Burning some government scrub land is illegal, I agree. 5 years in prison is too much though.

I have absolutely no respect for the Bundy boys and the militia idiots. What they are doing is far more serious than burning 150 acres which probably needed it anyway. These guys took over a federal facility by force, and they are telling everyone that they make stay there for years, like they will actually change anything about how the BLM runs things.

I hope that these guys end up in jail. They deserve it far more than the two ranchers did.

And the ranchers and their families have said that they want nothing to do with Bundy, etal. So why are they even there?

There are a number of youtube videos of Ammon Bundy yacking away. He isn't exactly keeping his cards close to his chest.

What would happen to anyone here if they got their guns and took over the cafeteria in Curry Village?

These are not unarmed peaceful protests. They are headed for jail, and when the BLM seizes Bundy's land for non-payment of his grazing fees, I hope he goes down in flames. Figuratively.
Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Jan 5, 2016 - 12:50pm PT
I think 5 years is ridiculous for the crime that they are convicted of but that is just what the feds charged them with. Probably because they felt they could get a conviction.

The Hammonds have been trespassing on federal land, tearing out federal fences and threatening to kill federal agents and their families since the 90's. They should be in prison even longer as far as I am concerned.

Repeat link:

http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/01/05/showdown-in-the-malheur-marshes-the-origins-of-the-armed-occupation-in-burns-oregon/
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 5, 2016 - 12:50pm PT
BASE104,

Minimum sentences started long before the 1990's. Several federal criminal statutes have had minimum sentences, some quite absurd. (As an example, if you fail to turn yourself in for the execution of a sentence of death, a minimum of two years imprisonment will be added to your sentence. This can be either a boon or a bane, depending on your view of life on death row.)

In the 1990's, the infamous sentencing guidelines purported to impose minimum sentences where the statutes failed to do so. The SCOTUS struck down the mandatory nature of those guidelines around 2004 or 2005, but the reasoning was that they exceeded the authority of a commission by de facto amending the criminal statutes to impose mandatory minima where congress had not done so.

The most egregious miscarriages I saw under the guidelines involved drug cases. Several of my fellow inmates at Taft were serving enormous sentences for very tiny - sometimes unknowing - involvement in the illegal drug trade.

My personal bottom line is that justice is imperfect, because people are imperfect. If I could trust all judges to sentence justly, I wouldn't need to specify penalties. The specification of penalties reflects legislative distrust of judges. Either way, we end up with unjust sentences.

John
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jan 5, 2016 - 01:00pm PT
John M said,

The crazy tax codes and overbearing rules we live with are out of whack in my opinion

What codes or rules to you specifically have a problem with?

I just listed one of my pet peeves: The mandatory minimum federal sentences. A judge CAN'T give them a lesser sentence. That is why the Hammonds are back in jail. Burning less than a quarter section of scrubland, that the federal biologist would probably approve of, merits a 5 year sentence?

I live in an area where ranchers like to periodically burn their pastures. Usually in late winter, after the cattle have grazed on it all that they can and are living on hay. The grass comes back beautifully in the spring. A lot of these fires jump a fence into a neighbor's pasture. They are usually glad about it, too. I've never heard of one suing another over a pasture fire. The cattle are so hard on the land that it NEEDS to be burned now and then, as it naturally was before we started putting every little prairie fire out. It is a part of natural management. The Nature Conservancy regularly burns grassland.

The mandatory minimums effect blacks far more than whites. The sentence for crack, a street drug, is far higher than for powdered cocaine.

Somebody check that for me, but I believe it is true.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 01:31pm PT
Here's our list of non-negotiable demands.


A leader of the small armed group that has been occupying a remote national wildlife refuge in Oregon said Tuesday that they will go home when a plan to turn over management of federal lands to locals is implemented.
...
... a rallying cry for the group calling itself Citizens for Constitutional Freedom, whose mostly male members said they want federal lands turned over to local authorities so people can use them free of U.S. oversight.

The Hammonds have distanced themselves from the protest group. Many locals don't want the activists here, fearing they may bring trouble.

Seeds of the dispute date back decades in the West, where the federal government owns about half of all land.

In the 1970s, Nevada and other states pushed for local control in what was known as the Sagebrush Rebellion. Supporters wanted more land for cattle grazing, mining and timber harvesting.

Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/news/nation-world/national/article53065590.html#storylink=cpy


"Supporters wanted more land for cattle grazing, mining and timber harvesting" or in common parlance a hand-out.
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Jan 5, 2016 - 01:34pm PT
Burning less than a quarter section of scrubland, that the federal biologist would probably approve of, merits a 5 year sentence?

I agree that it seems excessive. However, (and perhaps the fault is in the definition, these guys were found guilty of Arson. And not all Arson is the same.

But still if Banquo's reference is correct, the Hammonds are guilty of far worse by threatening federal employees who were just doing their job. The guys in Burns who work for BLM don't make the rules, they follow them. And yet if the reference is correct, then the Hammonds threatened not only the federal employees but their families as well.

It is hard to have sympathy for that.

golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Jan 5, 2016 - 01:36pm PT
A leader of the small armed group that has been occupying a remote national wildlife refuge in Oregon said Tuesday that they will go home when a plan to turn over management of federal lands to locals is implemented.

I have spent some time in that area and there are some pretty places. I want my chunk of federal land.IS that all it takes is a gun and a lobotomy?
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 5, 2016 - 01:40pm PT
yeah Arson to cover up the crime of poaching deer.
dirtbag

climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 01:41pm PT
Lobotomy, or a family tree that doesn't branch much.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Jan 5, 2016 - 01:44pm PT
I was curious and looked up the appeals court opinion on the sentence. The Hammonds agreed to a plea deal and pled guilty to some but not all of the charges. The district court refused to impose the mandatory minimum sentence under the 8th amendment. The appeals court reversed, finding that 5 years for arson is perfectly reasonable.

zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 01:48pm PT
^Did they plead guilty to arson?
John M

climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 01:48pm PT
Hey Base, I don't have any specific examples. More of a general experience. The tax code is so incredibly large. Plus codes that place burdens on businesses, such as the handicap parking space requirement that at one point in Sacramento was causing serious problems for small businesses. I don't know what the solution is because its common sense that is needed, but common sense isn't common. It also comes down to who is enforcing the rule. I had to redo a roof because I laid 15 weight felt overlapped by half. The code called for a total of 30 weight, which I achieved, but the code enforcer wanted 30 weight felt. It just seemed overbearing to me. Somehow we need to get to a point where things aren't overbearing.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Jan 5, 2016 - 01:50pm PT
Nah. The biggest moochers are people who get virtually free water from any federal water project.

That raises government apologetics to an art form.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jan 5, 2016 - 01:54pm PT
If they die during yeehawd they get to sleep with 72 cousins.

Oh. I thought if they were martyred they went to the giant ranch in the sky where they would get 47,000 acres of virgin land subsided by Federal tax payers...
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 5, 2016 - 02:30pm PT
I think when people discuss what the law is, we should look at the actual statute, so people don't get sidetracked with discussions about discretion and sentencing commissions. So here is the law an elected Congress passed in 1996 and what a jury of their peers convicted them of.


110 STAT. 1298 PUBLIC LAW 104–132—APR. 24, 1996

SEC. 708. ENHANCED PENALTIES FOR USE OF EXPLOSIVES OR ARSON CRIMES.
(a) IN GENERAL.—Section 844 of title 18, United States Code, is amended—
(1) in subsection (e), by striking ‘‘five’’ and inserting ‘‘10’’;
(2) by amending subsection (f) to read as follows:
‘‘(f)(1) Whoever maliciously damages or destroys, or attempts to damage or destroy, by means of fire or an explosive, any building, vehicle, or other personal or real property in whole or in part owned or possessed by, or leased to, the United States, or any department or agency thereof, shall be imprisoned for not less than 5 years and not more than 20 years, fined under this title,
or both.
‘‘(2) Whoever engages in conduct prohibited by this subsection,
and as a result of such conduct, directly or proximately causes personal injury or creates a substantial risk of injury to any person, including any public safety officer performing duties, shall be imprisoned for not less than 7 years and not more than 40 years, fined under this title, or both.
‘‘(3) Whoever engages in conduct prohibited by this subsection, and as a result of such conduct directly or proximately causes the death of any person, including any public safety officer perform- ing duties, shall be subject to the death penalty, or imprisoned for not less than 20 years or for life, fined under this title, or both.’’;

Since their sentence is five years, that's the minimum anywhere in the statute.

There was testimony that the fires endangered fire fighter camping on a nearby butte. I have no idea if the Feds sought a 7 year minimum under the statute for section (2).

Also note it doesn't matter where the fire was started or that there be actual real damage, only that there be malicious intent and it be by means of fire or explosives.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 5, 2016 - 02:38pm PT
On its face 5 years seems excessive for the fire. However these people have a history of breaking the law. Furthermore one fires was set to hide evidence of the slaughter of deer, at least 7 died, More limped off.

I could probably agree that the sentence might have been on the harsh side. Would be funny if Obama commuted their sentence, that would take the wind out of the nutters sails. Of course they would squawk that it took too long. Obama could have singlehandedly cured cancer and the nutters would cry foul.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 5, 2016 - 02:39pm PT
Mandatory minimums suck. But then so do the Bundy crew...
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Jan 5, 2016 - 02:53pm PT
http://www.oregonlive.com/geek/2016/01/best_oregon_militia_snacks_pol.html#incart_river_home


Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 5, 2016 - 02:58pm PT
Mandatory minimums suck. But then so do the Bundy crew...

Mandatory minimums have always sucked and were out of proportion to crimes.
Congress wrote them to take away the discretion for leniency on purpose.

People have gotten huge drug possession sentences for a joint or two.

Why is this flaw in the system only though of now?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 5, 2016 - 03:01pm PT
Why is this flaw in the system only though[t] of now?

It wasn't. The Daily Signal (an organ of the very conservative Heritage Foundation) has been a strong supporter of reducing and rationalizing sentences for drug possession, and has actually praised the Obama administration for supporting this.

John
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 5, 2016 - 03:09pm PT
The right wing jumped on the bandwagon only after they realized that the decades old tough on crime campaign was a complete failure and was costing us billions. They are trying to shut the barn door after the horses have already bolted, and after their cronies made billions.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jan 5, 2016 - 03:28pm PT
The right wing jumped on the bandwagon only after they realized that the decades old tough on crime campaign was a complete failure and was costing us billions. They are trying to shut the barn door after the horses have already bolted, and after their cronies made billions.

You got it backwards, the US crazy incarceration system is as much a union thing (left wing) as anything else.
Check out what the California Correctional Peace Officers Association has been up.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 5, 2016 - 03:46pm PT
the US crazy incarceration system is as much a union thing (left wing) as anything else.
Check out what the California Correctional Peace Officers Association has been up.

The prisons guards got their noses up as many Republican arses as Democratic. It is not at all a political issue, it is a money issue.

Good article from 2013

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/09/california-prison-guards_n_3894490.html
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 5, 2016 - 03:50pm PT
The first manatory minimums were for marijuana possession under the Boggs act in the 1950's

Here are some mandatory minimum sentences imposed.

People sentenced to mandatory sentences Edit

Weldon Angelos – 55 years for possessing a handgun while he sold $350 worth of marijuana to a police informant on three separate occasions
Leandro Andrade – 50 years without parole for theft of nine video tapes
Morton Berger – 200 years without probation, parole or pardon for twenty counts of sexual exploitation of a minor; each count represented a separate child pornography image he had possessed
Genarlow Wilson – 10 years for aggravated child molestation; released in 2007 after serving four years because the courts decided his sentence was disproportionate to the actual facts of the crime
Chantal McCorkle – 24 years for fraud and conspiracy to commit fraud; sentence subsequently reduced to 18 years on appeal
Richard Paey – 25 years for 15 counts of drug trafficking and other charges including fraud; granted a pardon in 2007 after serving three and a half years due to the circumstances of his drug use
Timothy L. Tyler - Life in prison for possessing 13 sheets of LSD.
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Jan 5, 2016 - 04:50pm PT
If I were king for a day I would put the following plan into place:
1. Let them stew.
2. This week cut off all incoming and outgoing traffic. I think there are only two roads. place barricades that offer no cover for future shooters.
3. Place feds in armored cars perhaps 200-300 yds out from barricades.
4. Cut off all power, jam and or stop all communications, but tell them first how things are going to go down.
5. The "SFB patriots" can surrender and drop their arms at the barricade where they will be covered by snipers. If they dont drop their weapons then they will be fired upon.
6. Maintain roving patrols in the unlikely event that these yahoos try and cover the barren ground and not come out from the roads.
7. Eventually, they will come out. To expedite them you can always send in a robotic car blasting loud rap music at the mmofo's.

If there are no arrests made for this then our government will have stooped to a new low by giving them preferential treatment over all the poor (mostly) minorities that have been killed by LEO with less justification than these guys.

JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 5, 2016 - 05:25pm PT
Eventually, they will come out. To expedite them you can always send in a robotic car blasting loud rap music at the mmofo's.

Forget rap music. A few accordions should do the trick. I still don't see why you're so anxious to spend money when you already have a self-sustaining prison in place.

John
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 5, 2016 - 05:29pm PT
Good point John. And so long as they go from their chosen prison cell to one with real bars I'm pretty sure all of America will be happy. At those that are not Wal-martyr's.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jan 5, 2016 - 05:31pm PT
If they pulled this crap in town instead of out in the boonies they would be just as dead as all those white bikers the cops shot in texas.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jan 5, 2016 - 05:32pm PT
I was dissapointed that none of them got charged after the bundy standoff.
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Jan 5, 2016 - 05:36pm PT
Yes
Let our government (who represents US), barricade those knotheads
in the refuge. All around it. No in, no out for them.
When they run out of twinkies and soda, they'll come crying to
negotiate.

Then they should be imprisoned and have the keys thrown away.
They can work their debts off making license plates for the states.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 5, 2016 - 05:38pm PT
tradman that was perfect.

Steve - negotiate? They come out with their hands up. Period.

over/under on how long that takes once they are out of power (and can no longer charge cell phones, communicate, etc.)?

Nice amount of snow on the way. At least they will have water.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 5, 2016 - 05:42pm PT

Forget rap music. A few accordions should do the trick

Excellent idea! Put this on a loop full blast. I'd give them 1 and a half hours. Tops.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jan 5, 2016 - 05:50pm PT
In some urban areas they figured out that playing classical music was a non confrontational way to keep kids from loitering next to your establishment.

funny how down in texas a whole crapload of bikers got shot and then there was total silence on who shot who. half a year later they admit that a bunch of them were shot with AR15's that the cops were carrying.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 5, 2016 - 05:51pm PT
now that i think about it turning off the power is a bad idea. at least trickle enough in so they can charge. how else will they see all the ridicule they so richly deserve.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 05:54pm PT
I'm not sensing much sympathy here.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 05:55pm PT
Whoa that's a righteous accordion solo.

You really want to get them to move on. Set up loudspeakers and broadcast locker and cosmic reading the ST forum to them 24 hours a day.

Starting with this thread and moving on to:

{insert your favorites here}




nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 5, 2016 - 06:02pm PT
I'm not sensing much sympathy here.

where is Rong when you need him most?

LOL. I almost feel sorry for him. almost.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 5, 2016 - 06:21pm PT
A couple of hours of the Hammond organ will make them want to gouge their ears out. I am not talking about the Allman Bros or Deep Purple


[Click to View YouTube Video]
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jan 5, 2016 - 06:31pm PT
It's refreshing to see so many of you on The Left being in favor of violence, torture, and mass incarceration.
Norton

Social climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 06:32pm PT


where is Rong when you need him most?

LOL. I almost feel sorry for him. almost.


Rong is now TheMaster

And just started another puke guns/hate the President thread
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 5, 2016 - 06:35pm PT
Ahhh. That makes so much sense.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 5, 2016 - 06:35pm PT
The Supreme court would rule this cruel and unusual punishment.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 5, 2016 - 06:43pm PT
And just started another puke guns/hate the President thread

huh?

omg I love greasemonkey. I had no idea that Wal-martyr was even still on this forum. Again.
F

climber
away from the ground
Jan 5, 2016 - 06:46pm PT
The last 20 posts are f ucking awesome. Minus Chaz.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Jan 5, 2016 - 07:10pm PT
It's refreshing to see so many of you on The Left being in favor of violence, torture, and mass incarceration.

Seems like all the threats are coming from the yeehawdists. C'mon, threatening to wrap a kid in barbed wire and throw him down a well because his dad works at a wildlife refuge?
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 5, 2016 - 07:17pm PT
The left are violent on this one? My goodness. the Ridicule is f*#king priceless. Wal-martyr's makes me laugh so hard my stomach muscles hurt.
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Jan 5, 2016 - 07:42pm PT
It's refreshing to see so many of you on The Left being in favor of violence, torture, and mass incarceration.

Well Chaz, I don't consider myself right or left, I consider myself to be an American.

And right now I fail to understand how a bunch of rednecks with guns get more consideration than a 12 year old black kid with a toy gun who LEO killed. Or another black guy who was selling single f*#king cigarettes and gets choked to death.

If you can explain the finer points of equal justice to me I am all ears.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jan 5, 2016 - 08:03pm PT
Golsen writes:

"If you can explain the finer points of equal justice to me I am all ears."



Equal justice may be a tough thing for a practitioner of race based selective outrage to grasp.

Brian Beaird. You don't know who that is. Do you?

Noel Aguilar. You don't know who that is either.

How about Kelly Thomas? Do you know who he is?

But you know Michael Brown. And Tamir Rice. And Eric Garner.

Aguilar, Thomas, and Beaird are West Coast guys - like yourself - while Rice, Brown, and Garner lived on the other side of the country.

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jan 5, 2016 - 08:08pm PT
so some white guys got shot by cops too. still does not explain why rednecks with guns get off. the f*#ks in nevada were let lose after aiming fire arms at federal agents, do you support that chaz?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jan 5, 2016 - 08:11pm PT
Brian Beaird had led police on a high speed chase for an hour, driving his silver Corvette the wrong way down several streets, running traffic lights and wildly weaving between lanes when the pursuit ended with Beaird plowing into another car.

while the cops might have been over zealous, driving the wrong way on a high speed chase is pretty f*#king dangerous. he could have killed someone.

nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 5, 2016 - 08:11pm PT
Hawkeye +1
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jan 5, 2016 - 08:14pm PT
Noel Aguilar was pinned when an L.A. County sheriff’s deputy pumped three shots into his back. The deputy thought Aguilar shot him, but it was his partner.
“You f*#king move, I’m going to kill you, bitch!”

The menacing order was made by Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Deputy Jose Ruiz as he and his partner, Deputy Albert Murad, struggled to pin down and allegedly disarm Noel Aguilar. Ruiz backed up the threat by putting his pistol to Aguilar’s head.


But the 23-year-old construction worker, who had a fiancée at home and a baby girl on the way, didn’t heed the words.

He resisted. And he paid for it with his life.

That’s clearly seen in a video shot by an anonymous witness that was released on Friday to accompany a federal civil lawsuit filed by Aguilar’s family attorney accusing both Los Angeles Sheriff’s Department deputies of starting a “shooting spree” and using “excessive force” when they “physically abused, then shot and killed” Aguilar.

while i dont condone the cops shooting this dude, why did he resist? WTF is wrong with people?
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 5, 2016 - 08:19pm PT
Noel Aguilar. You don't know who that is either.

I know enough to know its a Hispanic surname. That's your best shot?




A disturbing video emerged Friday showing two Los Angeles sheriff’s deputies killing a man after they had chased him for riding a bicycle while wearing headphones.

The incident took place more than a year ago with the Los Angeles Sheriff’s Department initially telling the media that they shot and killed 23-year-old Noel Aguilar, a “known gang member,” after he pulled out a gun and shot a deputy.

But now a video shows the two deputies struggling to arrest Aguilar when one deputy pulls out his gun and shoots the second deputy before placing his gun back into its holster, then placing the blame on Aguilar.

“Where’s the gun?” Los Angeles sheriff’s deputy Jose Ruiz asked Aguilar seconds after his partner announced he had been shot.

“I don’t have any,” Aguilar said.

“I’ve been shot,” yelled Albert Murade for the second time.

“I didn’t shoot nobody,” responded Aguilar.

“I got shot in the stomach,” Murade continued.

“I didn’t shoot nobody,” Aguilar insisted.

Ruiz then pulled his gun back out and pointed it at Aguilar in an obvious attempt to shut him up.

“C’mon man, why you pulling a gun on me,” Aguilar asked.

Ruiz shoots him in the stomach, prompting Murade, who is already angry at having been shot, to fire three bullets into Aguilar’s back.

That sparks angry shouts of protest from witnesses, in English and in Spanish, saying Aguilar did nothing illegal.

Hispanics get shot to death for wearing headphones and riding a bike in LA.
grover

climber
Castlegar BC
Jan 5, 2016 - 08:25pm PT
Flush them out with Twitty.
[Click to View YouTube Video]

If that doesn't work zbrown had a good idea as well.


golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Jan 5, 2016 - 08:29pm PT
Equal justice may be a tough thing for a practitioner of race based selective outrage to grasp.

I really do not