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Mad Max
Trad climber
Bakersfield
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 1, 2015 - 10:25am PT
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Hi,
I'm planning a small solar system for my Ford Expedition, for extended trips on or off the roads and I wanted to have a 100W solar system for my vehicle so I don't kill the battery while charging laptops or powering a small fan or compact space heater, or I can jump my own battery if needed.
I wanted to buy a 100W solar panel and hack it into a GoalZero Yeti 400 solar generator, to avoid buying their outrageously expensive solar panels of inferior wattage.
The Yeti 400 is compact and straightforward, so I am choosing that over building my own to save lots of space and maintain portability to some extent. I may size up to the Yeti 1250, if my needs necessitate it.
Any insight you can provide is much appreciated, thanks ladies and gents.
Cheers,
Max
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aside from Werner you might find better info elsewhere, n'est ce pas? ;-)
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Mad Max
Trad climber
Bakersfield
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2015 - 11:19am PT
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It was worth a shot, thanks anyways :)
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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microwave, sound system, drives hot water heat & Charges 2 ebikes of 1670 wH battery packs.
Home Made!
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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You can mix n' match panels all you want as long as the voltage is the same. Your plan of a large cheap 100w panel would work just fine although it might not be a good thing to mention to Yeti warranty support should the need arise.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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the space heater is going to need more than 100 watts more like 12 x 20 = 240 watts. Get a heated coat or an electric blanket.
An ebike battery pack will charge your laptop many times and still run a 12 v charger to start your vehicle. re-Charge the bike pack when you get home.
Solar or not, let's be real. The gas to move that expedition is far more than a Honda gas generator would use on a trip.
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Mad Max
Trad climber
Bakersfield
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2015 - 02:14pm PT
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The legend himself! Hope you had a good Thanksgiving, and I'll keep everyone posted if I find an effective and economic solution.
A Heated blanket or jacket is a brilliant idea, and saves space. Thanks!
As for the comment on gas consumption, I typically will park the vehicle and walk/bike anywhere I need to within 10 miles of the parking spot if I need to get over there.
In the meantime, any other tidbits of info I can use are much appreciated, I'm slowly building up a better understanding of what I'll need to run my system. My Ford Expedition isn't big enough inside to handle all the awesome gear they have out there for solar systems, but I only need to charge a laptop occasionally or keep my devices and headlamps charged. I could always size up to a Yeti 1250, but by then I might as well rack batteries and find a better suited vehicle for this project.
As for now, the search continues...
Cheers,
Max
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ClimberDave
Trad climber
The LBC, CA
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I haven't installed a system but have been looking around at options.
Found this http://www.renogy-store.com/default.asp site to have some pretty reasonable prices on panels. Was looking for something in the 150-200 watt range in the near future.
Had seen them in a few different UToob videos.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Not sure if they've got what you need, but the owner is a guy I've known for 30 something years so I feel obligated to plug his business.
http://store.sundancesolar.com/
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WBraun
climber
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Will run a 12 inch table saw ,for several hours.
AT full load?
I had potbelly wood stove in my van when I had it.
Way better than any stupid electric heat ......
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Ryans
Trad climber
Idyllwild, CA
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I built a small little setup to run my telescope mount and camera from a 100Ah marine deep cycle battery and parts commonly available at an auto parts store. I'm also currently in the process of building a solar/battery powered astronomical observatory. Here's what I've learned:
-You need a voltage regulator to avoid overcharging your batteries or running current the opposite direction at night (unless you want to unplug the solar panel anytime there is no sun)
-Build some fuses or breakers into your circuits so you don't start a fire or otherwise hurt yourself too bad
-Battery charge monitors are nice to have. A multimeter will work too, but you'll have to measure manually.
You can buy the "cigarette lighter" dc outlets at an auto parts store. They're designed to give you more outlets in your car. However, if you cut the wires, you can hook it up to your batteries to give yourself some DC outlets. Definitely wire a fuse into this rated for a few amps more than you intend to draw at one time.
Converting from DC to AC will cost you a lot of energy. I recommend buying DC adapters for anything you plan to power. Computers, cell phones, and most other electronics run on DC power anyway, so you just need to get the right DC power cord.
I bought wet cell marine deep cycle batteries from Walmart rated to about 100Ah. They say you shouldn't ever dip below 50% of the battery's capacity if you want to keep the battery's lifespan long. These cost about $100 each, plus the disposal fee.
Amp-hours (Ah) are key for selecting the right battery. Find out how many DC amps your things draw (AC amps are different and you'll need to do some simple calculations). My laptop draws 5 DC amps. Theoretically I could run it for about 10 hours on my 100Ah battery without dipping below the 50% mark.
I'm not an electrician, I'm just a guy who studied physics and knows enough to be dangerous. For my observatory, I bought a 300W kit with everything I need to make it safe plus four 100Ah batteries. That way it won't be all jerry-rigged and a fire hazard.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Outside the Asylum
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Every single human being should be familiar with solar energy.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Ryans
Interested in your observatory. I'm an optician. Please tell me more! Try PM function if you want.
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Mad Max
Trad climber
Bakersfield
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 2, 2015 - 01:47pm PT
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I have a 4' by 6'4" by 16" space beneath my oakie bed, so I have some room for gizmos and gear and clothes, so I might build my own system to save money...
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Stay away from the German company Solara!
Years of battles with their warranty BS and continual problems with replacement panels.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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^^^^^ Damn! That's some Flintstones shizz there!
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Yep.
Looks like they paid for themselves more than a few times over,Guido.
Despite their glitches. (Least I hope)
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Total cost<800,00 dollars.
Will run a 12 inch table saw ,for several hours.
You way overpaid for your specs, IMO - and no, it won't.
Your inverter at full load will draw a little over 15A AC / ~180ish DC accounting for 90% efficiency at the inverter. Your batteries are 100 Ah or less, I would assume, probably in the 80ish range. Your low voltage inverter alarm will go off in probably 15 minutes. The saw will stop working in about 30. The batteries will be absolutely dead and permanently damaged in under 1 hour, the saw will be motionless. With your 80 Watt panels working at a very wishful 50% yield mounted flat on top of your van and possibly in the shadow of that box, you'd be looking at a few days to recover from that glorious 15 minutes of sawing. Even if you shut the saw off in, say, 5 minutes or less, these kinds of rapid discharge cycles will significantly shorten the life of your relatively small battery bank.
Basically, my suggestion, is to educate yourself as much as possible on these kinds of realities before buying anything. Also, as you are shopping for yuppified, productized bullsh!t solar equipment with dismal specs for outrageous costs - suggest you at least compare to assembling the key parts yourself from the myriad of inexpensive and well discussed equipment mentioned on countless solar forums. Nobody with a clue is using "Yeti" or "Goal Zero".
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Mad Max
Trad climber
Bakersfield
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 2, 2015 - 07:16pm PT
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JLP,
Awesome stuff here,
I'm beginning to lean more towards building my own system, but now I'm worried about how to package it all up to prevent a fire hazard without permanently damaging my vehicle and having to worry about priming and painting it wherever I make cuts, etc.
I'm looking for a happy medium between "plug n' go" and "custom and economical/effective" and "not having a massive amount of bulk".
Max
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Mad Max
Trad climber
Bakersfield
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 2, 2015 - 07:35pm PT
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Any information I see on this thread is written in a notebook, so please elaborate :)
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Werner's idea of a wood stove in a van is fantastic. A lot of people have been killed by running an open flame for heat in an RV.
Electric heat is actually very efficient, it's just that electricity is more expensive than gas - and in a mobile setting, it's way more expensive.
Diesel heaters are great, but costs start at more than many used climber trucks are worth.
Use a sleeping bag. If you want *safe* heat, costs go off a cliff. Just suck it up and get a real RV if this is the direction you want to go.
A small solar system to charge some toys - maybe $300 - $100 ish each for panel, battery and charger+inverter. Maybe 60-100 watts for a couple hours is all you need for a laptop, call it a 250 watt inverter from Walmart. A 100 watt panel and 80-100 Ah battery will suffice, but it will be the minimum. Avoid the mistake of mismatched components - ie, a giant inverter attached to a small battery bank, low power solar panels for the expected loads, etc. Start cheap, there's a lot to learn with experience, everyone swaps stuff out over time.
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Oh, and voltage regulators can also fail. Nothing like seeing smoke signals drifting upward from the electrical panel on a boat when you are a 1500 miles offshore! Who you going to call?
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The Alpine
climber
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The sailors are definitely the ones you should be listening to. Skip the goal zero and roll your own. A couple walmart deep cycles(or golf cart batts), an mpppt controller (or cheap pwm, whatever) and various panels scrounged off craigslist and Bob's your Uncle.
Don't skimp on the wiring and fuses though. You can find wiring diagrams to have your start battery always trickle charged from your main house battery bank.
You're going to have trouble running any appliance that generates heat though. Heat = lotsa amps!
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ShawnInPaso
climber
Paso Robles, CA
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Hey MM -
If you do roll your own, be sure to Google "solar panel sizing". There is an optimum size of panel(s) for the battery(s) you choose. I know this seems obvious, but there are details which will maximize your dollar and longevity of the system.
I have had excellent results using the prostar line of charge controllers:
http://www.ecodirect.com/v/vspfiles/photos/Morningstar-Prostar-PS-15M-2.jpg
No point in building a (portable or mobile) solar system with anything but Gel Cell or AGM type batteries. All quality batteries cost a buttload, but I have had good results with this brand which is a lot less then their better known competitors.
http://www.vmaxtanks.com/SLR100-AGM-Solar-Battery_p_37.html
Last choice is a good panel; I'd shop online at the various solar warehouse places for the best price (and to learn what the best price per watt is).
Bundle these three things together along with a few widgets to charge your devices and power up your stuff and yer' good to go.
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Mad Max
Trad climber
Bakersfield
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 2, 2015 - 10:44pm PT
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This is the best community ever, thanks for all your help everyone, I'm saving these pointers as they are more helpful than any youtube videos and google searching thus far. I have some wiring diagrams saved, and some videos bookmarked and I'm developing a sense of what I want out of my system and the realities I have to face as well.
The more I think about it, the more modest I have to be...
Max
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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JLP is spot on. Read what he writes, a tad cynical then read it again.
Study up an honest effort you'll feel good about.
Batteries cost $bucks$ and easily die.
Inverters have different idle consumption specs. High idle consumption will kill your party on low but lengthy power draw.
Arne
edit-you want condescending tone at this stage; so many gimmicks out there
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Mad Max
Trad climber
Bakersfield
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2015 - 12:52am PT
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That heater looks like the perfect solution!
But I live in CA so not possible, and I don't want to die in my sleep either, but it looks like an awesome heater!
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ClimberDave
Trad climber
The LBC, CA
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Yeah anything electrical that generates heat (space heaters, coffee makers, hair dryers etc...) wont work well with solar on your vehicle as they use too much power.
My friend has one of these http://www.mrheater.com/ to heat his van, and swears by it, you can buy them in Calif too. He doesn't sleep with it on however, uses it to warm it up in the evening and when he gets up, and shuts it off when he goes to sleep and loads up on the blankets etc to keep warm during the night.
He also does some cooking inside (mainly boiling water) which does a great job at heating the inside too.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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The propane alarm has a chance for failure, mostly due to wearing your battery down to nothing from all the other stuff, because that's what always happens, but also due to location, the fact they need replacing every few years and nobody does that, etc. I wouldn't bet my life on one, to wake me up because some open flame is about to suffocate me. Therefore, why even bother? It's a device for an emergency in an RV with "safe" appliances.
For staying warm while awake, go for it, a headache and/or drowsiness are probably a better indicator. Also, IMO, if it's too humid, that's also a sign of not enough ventilation. Water is a byproduct of combustion and if it's not getting ventilated away, IMO that's also a sign that not enough O2 is getting ventilated in.
Also, electric heat = "efficient" - 100% of the energy into that 1500 watt space heater goes to heating the living space. 25-50% of gas appliance heat will be lost in the heat exchanger - ie, ventilation of combustion gasses. That said, a 20lb cylinder of propane at maybe $20 is roughly equal to 100x 100Ah batteries, 200x if you use the 50% discharge rule. Both will get you about 80 hours @ 1500 watts of heat. That part is certainly more efficient - for camping.
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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solar water heating...
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whoops
climber
paradise, ca
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I'm a California C46 solar contractor specializing in off grid solar. We've done many RV's and notably some climbing rigs. Here are some observations.
JLP is essentially right on, listen to what he is saying.
AC and DC amps are exactly the same. OHM's law doesn't differentiate between them. The voltages are typically different ie: 12v and 120v.
You buy batteries in amp hours but most equipment is rated in watts. Multiply your battery amp hours times your final battery voltage to get total watts. If you put two 100 amp hour, 6 volt batteries in series, you get 100 amp hours at 12 volts. That is 1200 watts. Figure out your load in watts for a 24 hour period and install batteries twice that size.
As JLP said, panels on a flat roof supply somewhere around 50% of their nameplate wattage. Put up a big enough panel to compensate for that loss. We try to get 200 to 300 watts on the roof. Small 10 to fifty watt panels are worthless except for trickle charging a battery system or keeping your laptop charged. As an example, fifty watt panels mounted flat might put out 30 watts. 30 watts at 12 volts is only 2.5 amps. At latitude 38 you can multiple your projected panel output by 5.5 to get a guestimate of total power produced. 5.5 hours times 2.5 amps equals 13.75 amps produced in a solar day. Not much considering just one interior light can pull 2 amps per hour.
As someone said, get a MPPT charge controller. There are a couple of reasons for this I won't go into here but they are worth the extra dough. I like Morningstar for these small systems. Good product, great warranty. Also, get a battery monitor and learn about charging and discharging. Batteries are to easy to kill and cost too much.
Do not mount panels directly to your roof. They need to stand off a few inches for best results. Do not piece together different size panels. Use proper size wire designed for an automotive environment. Shrink wrap all connections using shrink wrap with glue on the inside. You can't buy this at Autozone so try Platt.
Connect your batteries to your car charging system. This isn't ideal because of the different charge algorithm needed for deep cycle versus starting batteries but it's better than not charging your batteries fully.
Fuse everything.
With a well designed system you can expect the batteries to last 3 to 5 years depending on the quality of the battery.
Do not let your batteries sit through the winter (or summer) without using them. The primary reasons for battery failure are, letting the liquid level fall below the plates, letting them sit with no charging and discharging them regularly below 50%.
Flooded cell batteries work great as long as you maintain them properly. AGM would be the better choice if your're lazy but they are a lot more expensive and I mean a lot. Don't use Gel, they have different charge voltages and don't typically last long in an RV, plus they are also expensive.
I'm really tired, it's been a long day. Hopefully this make sense.
Brad
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WBraun
climber
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Shrink wrap all connections using shrink wrap with glue on the inside. You can't buy this at Autozone so try Platt.
You can get marine grade shrink tube (glue on the inside) anywhere on ebay and Harbor freight carries it in store.
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WBraun
climber
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AGM would be the better choice
Yes and they ARE expensive,
But the bottom line YOU MUST TAKE CARE OF YOUR BATTERIES.
You can't be lazy with this technology unless you love to blow your paycheck all the time on replacing your batteries.
I deal with people all the time being lazy with their batteries and killing them ....
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James Wilcox
Trad climber
Goleta/Virginia Lakes
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In our solar system I use Trojan batteries. We tend to get 9-10 years with proper and regular maintenance.
We have the Morningstar controller. Reasonably priced, simple to install and use.
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whoops
climber
paradise, ca
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Trojan has had problems in the past with their L16 style batteries. I didn't install them for years following a rash of failures. The new L16 RE seems to be doing better. For mobile applications the Trojan t105 is really a good battery but it's a flooded unit and at 6 volts you will need two in series. The t-1275 is a 12 volt battery so you would only need one. It's rated at 150 ah for 20 hours. Also a good choice.
I could be wrong, but I assume you are talking about an Off-grid as opposed to mobile system. Mobile systems are more difficult to keep alive.
If you are getting 10 years out of your batteries it's because you did a great job on the original design, understand it thoroughly, and are willing to put in the work to keep it alive. This is not the norm.
Brad
T-hock. PM me. I've morphed into commercial solar but maybe I can help you out a bit. I live near Chico by the way. The web site is Bakerenergyteam.com. If you're a baseball fan you'll like who my partner is.
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James Wilcox
Trad climber
Goleta/Virginia Lakes
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Yes, our system is an off-grid cabin on the Eastside. We just got new Trojan L16H. I'll let you know if we have premature failure. And yes, we're pretty fastidious on battery maintenance. For mobile I have also heard decent comments on the T105RE. Good amp hours and can withstand thousands of charge/discharge cycles. Reasonable price, too. For mobile I was using four Trojan T145 in series/parallel. They held up well, but not sure if they were worth the extra cost over the T105.
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