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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 28, 2015 - 09:07pm PT
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Smoking kills. If you don't smoke, don't start.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Nov 28, 2015 - 09:10pm PT
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A friend was stabbed to death during an altercation which was started because he was holding a parking spot for a friend. People very often get whacked for no good reason.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Nov 28, 2015 - 09:13pm PT
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Chaz! Re your snappy comeback or follow-up?
Smoking kills. If you don't smoke, don't start.
I don't think we are on the same planet at the moment.
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philo
climber
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Nov 28, 2015 - 09:18pm PT
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Fritz I agree.
Classless.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Nov 28, 2015 - 09:31pm PT
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Jim: How does your comment pertain to my opening post? I respect your intelligence, but you have now confused me?
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philo
climber
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Nov 28, 2015 - 09:46pm PT
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Yeah that's the real issue eh?
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Nov 28, 2015 - 10:02pm PT
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Well, the reason I posted the news about this senseless death, was my grief about how an employee's request to not smoke to a customer, resulted in her death.
My post is also an expression of my distress about how an "always armed & ready to kill" America changes everything we have learned about interacting with others in our society.
Since I live in an "always armed & ready to kill" part of America, I am somewhat alarmed & amazed to learn that a request to not smoke now justifies homicide.
I resolve to be much more polite in the future.
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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Nov 28, 2015 - 10:05pm PT
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"Happiness is a warm gun . . . bang, bang . . . shoot, shoot"
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jonnyrig
climber
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Nov 28, 2015 - 10:07pm PT
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How does a person with a traumatic brain injury acquire a firearm?
They shouldn't.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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Nov 28, 2015 - 10:12pm PT
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They sold Fritz some hand guns and i've seen pictures of him in rubber room wearing restraints..
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jonnyrig
climber
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Nov 28, 2015 - 10:32pm PT
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Solve that, then figure out how to treat it.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Nov 28, 2015 - 10:57pm PT
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I am somewhat alarmed & amazed to learn that a request to not smoke now justifies homicide.
I don't know where you get that conclusion. Nobody thinks the homicide was "justified."
And if you are talking about the brain-damaged perp, I doubt he was "thinking" in anything approaching the sense that the vast, vast majority in this country think about such things.
Of course, the usual suspects want to push this along as another example of the need for gun control.
Good luck with that. Yet again, NO proposed legislation will stop such events.
In FACT, this is just one tragic event that all 1/3 of a BILLION people in this nation can know about thanks to the ever-present, ever-reporting spin-show that is contemporary media "reporting."
It's ONE event out of the countless billions of wonderful events, crimes stopped, people uplifted, and normal life going on during that same time slice in America. But NONE of those events are "news" because NONE of them are a tragedy, and NONE of them contribute to floating some agenda or another.
It's IS tragic, but try not to make too much out of it... if that's now possible, since now we have yet another thread on yet another in-our-faces event that just must be dissected and "understood." (NOT!)
Yup, yet another cookie-cutter thread with typical battle lines draw.
Let the games begin, and may the odds be ever in your favor. LOL
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Nov 29, 2015 - 12:02am PT
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yeah, i'm going to have to agree with mb1 on this one...
to conflate this with any larger thesis, other than the intrinsic "random" shittiness of life, is to politicize an event purely for a person's predisposed political agenda.
and regardless of which political side is stooping to that base level of argument, it is despicable.
you guys on either the right or the left that engage in this are lightweight intellectual cherrypickers and inhuman ambulance/disaster chasers.
bet that lady isn't even buried yet and you all are turning her into your own delusional "teachable moment."
the only real way i can see an argument that goes beyond statistical randomness would be one that is rooted in either a WBraun or William Burroughs style mystical observation viewing the core of all american life to be found in some sort of deeper historical spiritual cycle:
"America is not a young land: it is old and dirty and evil. Before the settlers, before the Indians... the evil was there... waiting."
and while that style of observation may very well be correct, that thesis is way beyond what my poor fund of knowledge can comment on.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 29, 2015 - 02:15am PT
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Good luck with that. Yet again, NO proposed legislation will stop such events.
I agree, only getting a shitload of our hundreds of millions of guns off the street and melting them down will do that. That and ending the insanity that is open carry and the proliferation of concealed weapons.
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Nov 29, 2015 - 03:11am PT
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What makes no sense to me about people carrying guns in public is the mindset of the those who insist on exercising such a right. It is unreasonable to think if the weapon is at a person's side 24-7 that they'll never have in their life a situation where they will use it. Unless that person is law enforcement or a trained medical professional they are also not as likely to fully understand the consequences of ripping a 3/8" hole through a person a 1700 mph.
When a disagreement can so commonly go from a verbal argument to a lethal extreme and knee jerk road rage situation such as we hear about almost every day it fully negates the reasonong behind protecting 2nd amendment rights at any cost. Civility is a learned behavior as is bullying, racism, bigotry, and sexism. What gives people the right to to exercise an overinflated sense of their right to bear arms when they absolutely are unprepared to deal with the irreparable and devastating consequences of their actions?
A gun in the home to protect from intruders is one thing. Average citizens carrying guns in public is a return to vigilante prepped for a posse Wild West ignorant thinking at its best.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Nov 29, 2015 - 04:08am PT
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I agree, only getting a shitload of our hundreds of millions of guns off the street and melting them down will do that. That and ending the insanity that is open carry and the proliferation of concealed weapons.
I find this comment confusing.
How are you proposing to usher in this utopia without legislation?
And if by legislation, how do you think that accomplishing this utopia is going to keep whack-jobs from killing others? Do you honestly think that by removing guns from the hands of a hundred-million law-abiding, responsible citizens you are going to usher in your utopia in which the killing stops?
And if you cannot ENSURE that individual lives are not threatened by others, then how can you possibly propose to deprive those others of their NATURAL RIGHT to self-defense?
Nobody seriously believes in your utopia. Meanwhile, we DO believe in self-defense and not waiting for cops to arrive later to clean up the mess. And we do NOT believe in anything approaching the police-state (as if you can trust THEM with the guns) that it would take to have a cop in every home to protect us both from ourselves and the whack-jobs.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Nov 29, 2015 - 04:45am PT
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What makes no sense to me about people carrying guns in public is the mindset of the those who insist on exercising such a right.
Yeah, it's pretty crazy! Like the whack-jobs that insist on exercising their right to free speech on an interweb forum.
You do know that the pen is mightier than the sword/gun? Right?
The power of ideas that are infectiously spread about by that horrendously dangerous free speech--they are the REAL threat, and history should have taught you that fact.
It is unreasonable to think if the weapon is at a person's side 24-7 that they'll never have in their life a situation where they will use it.
I can make no sense of that statement. And nobody I know or have even heard of is hoping to "use it."
Unless that person is law enforcement or a trained medical professional they are also not as likely to fully understand the consequences of ripping a 3/8" hole through a person a 1700 mph.
Everybody I know that carries is VERY aware of the consequences. Furthermore, your idea that LEOs are so very aware is pretty ridiculous. The vast, vast majority will never even draw their gun, much less fire it. They actually get no special training as part of their routine. The majority of CCW-holders are better trained and better shots than most LEOs. Oh, and they know the details of the laws better.
And there are actually very few shootings in the USA relative to the number of medical professionals. The vast, vast, VAST majority will never encounter a gunshot wound. So, again, they have no special epistemic position relative to the consequences.
Finally, it's just ridiculous to argue that one must have "intimate knowledge" of gunshot wounds in order to be responsible with a gun! The vast majority of Americans will never have "intimate knowledge" of the crushing forces of a high-speed accident. Yet almost all of us take driving seriously and handle it responsibly.
When a disagreement can so commonly go from a verbal argument to a lethal extreme and knee jerk road rage situation such as we hear about almost every day
It's this very lack of perspective that literally boggles my mind. The media is the 24/7 spin-machine, and even with them digging for every POSSIBLE gun-related incident, there are SO FEW they can report on compared to the number of people in the US, SO FEW compared to the number of guns being carried by SO MANY. There are SO MANY "verbal arguments" that never escalate into violence. Yet, people like you fixate on the TINY FEW that do escalate into violence.
Furthermore, the complaints about concealed carry permit-holders, such as Joe's above, are flat-out wrong, and that wrongness fits into the context of your argument. CCW permit-holders are MUCH less likely to commit ANY crime, particularly violent crime, than are LEOs, and that's a well-established statistical fact. The people you WANT around you are CCW-holders, even more than cops! If you feel safe around a cop, you should feel doubly-safe around a CCW-holder.
it fully negates the reasonong behind protecting 2nd amendment rights at any cost.
The 2nd amendment has nothing to do with it. The right that amendment refers to precedes it, does not depend upon it, is not granted nor upheld by it, and cannot be eliminated even by the utter elimination of the 2nd amendment.
You cannot take away my natural rights by ANY form of legislation, and ALL forms of legislation that attempt to do so are invalid by right. Indeed, ANY government that attempts to do so is invalid by right.
Civility is a learned behavior as is bullying, racism, bigotry, and sexism.
Yes, and, as I stated above, apparently CCW-holders have learned civility FAR better than even cops, as they commit fewer crimes, especially violent crimes, than do the cops themselves.
You refer to bullying, which is ironic in this context.
I don't attempt to strip YOU of any rights. Yet, people like you are perpetually going after MY rights. Don't threaten me, and you'll have no problems from me. I'm not coming after YOU in any way. But YOU come after me every single day. And YOU come after me with every forum post that threatens my right to life, which implies my right to self-defense, which implies my right to the means to effectively defend myself.
YOU literally bully me with every forum post and every legislative attempt to undermine my rights... rights that DO NOT threaten YOU in ANY way. MY gun is NO threat to YOU or any other law-abiding person AT ALL. You have NO reason to try to strip ME of it.
What gives people the right to to exercise an overinflated sense of their right to bear arms when they absolutely are unprepared to deal with the irreparable and devastating consequences of their actions?
Your question is chock-full of ignorance and presumption.
We each have a right to life. Do YOU have an "overinflated sense" of THAT right? You gonna just roll over and offer up your throat to the aggressor?
The right to life implies the right to self-defense. Do YOU have an "overinflated sense" of THAT right? You gonna just roll over and offer up your throat to the aggressor?
The right to self-defense implies the right to the means to effectively exercise it.
If YOU feel like offering up your throat to the aggressor, and you think that that is what it means to have a "properly proportioned" sense of rights, then I seriously pity you. I mean that! And our nation was NOT founded by people like YOU!
Average citizens carrying guns in public is a return to vigilante prepped for a posse Wild West ignorant thinking at its best.
The ignorance is yours.
Hundreds of millions of guns are in circulation, lawfully carried by many, many tens of millions of these so-called "Wild West" people you sniff at. Yet, in a nation of 1/3 of a BILLION people, there are SO FEW incidents of the "wild west" you refer to.
Take away gangland and drug-related shootings, and you are left with a tiny, TINY number of incidents involving a gun! The "Wild West" you refer to NEVER existed, and it does NOT exist now. Oh, except for in gangland America... the areas you will not TOUCH with your Utopian ideals of no need to exercise the right to self-defense.
Try to get off the media spin-zone for a month. Go cold-turkey if you can. Mingle among everyday Americans, not the ones you see on the tube. REALIZE that a significant proportion of the ones you are mingling with ARE ARMED! You don't realize it because they are not in the "wild west" mode you assert. The VAST, VAST majority of CCW-holders will never produce that gun for you to see, so you PRESUME that the people you see are not armed. But MANY of them are.
No "Wild West," except in the overwrought minds of politicians bent on CONTROL and the bought-and-paid-for media that does their bidding.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Nov 29, 2015 - 04:48am PT
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It's pointless to argue with gun nuts, they'll rationalize anything and everything
Have a nice day!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Nov 29, 2015 - 05:25am PT
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they'll rationalize anything and everything
FAR better to follow YOUR example, right? FAR better to not rationalize (think rationally) about anything.
If you CAN rationalize, then DO so. Otherwise, admit that you cannot get the better of the argument.
Oh, right, in THAT case, your course is to band together with like-minded and LEGISLATE away the natural rights of law-abiding citizens. And THEN, in poetic irony, you'll make your proxies employ the POWER OF THE GUN to enforce your will.
What people like you don't seem to get is that EVERY law is an attempt to control behavior. That is FORCE. It's not "consensus!" What right do you think you have to FORCE me, when my rights in NO WAY threaten you?
MY behavior and that of many tens of millions of others like me IN NO WAY threatens you. I have NO desire to control YOU. I just want YOU to leave me alone and thereby go about my life and meanwhile threaten YOU in NO WAY.
It is YOU that threatens me, as you attempt to CONTROL my behavior that in NO WAY threatens you.
If you propose to do THAT, you had BETTER be able to rationalize it! And you had BETTER be able to CONVINCE by force of argument long before you attempt to compel by FORCE of the gun.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Nov 29, 2015 - 05:42am PT
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Do you honestly think that by removing guns from the hands of a hundred-million law-abiding, responsible citizens you are going to usher in your utopia in which the killing stops?
They've managed to do this in the rest of the civilized world.
Are we any less able to face the fact that THERE ARE TOO MANY PEOPLE IN THE WORLD?
Populations which are smaller and in a frontier situation are armed for the sake of survival. Not so much protection from aggressive or unbalanced members of society, but so they can feed the family.
It's when we fear the person standing next to us that these things happen...at a bar rail, like in the westerns, which are inflated with fear and loathing of "bad guys" from the get-go, simply because of Hollywood's need (passe, now) to keep cranking out death at a weekly rate to keep up with entertainment demands. Stop for a mo to think that everything you see on the screen could not possibly have taken place--there weren't that many "bad guys" and they didn't go around putting high-speed holes in other people all the time, like it's depicted in the western movies, so do WE need similarly to have firearms to carry as well?
I say "Hell, no!"
The gun lobby has been hanging on to that holy icon of a right to bear arms and it's consequences are becoming SO APPARENT OF LATE that it's time to legislate BIG-TIME on these mis-guided groups (NRA for starters) and backwoods whackos (Fritz's neighbors) and TAKE THEIR GUNS AWAY.
Personally, it wouldn't bother me to hear that several had been killed or wounded in bringing the non-compliers to heel. It requires stern leadership in the right places and we don't have that at present but there's hope. Always hope.
Which would you rather hear about? Innocent kids dying, friendly waitresses dying, families killed by a dad gone berserk, or a postally-mad and vengeful former employee wiping out the office he no longer works in, or a battle out in the boonies that started out as an honest attempt at confiscating weapons and ammo for the good of all, or that the day's news only tells of non-firearms-related stories because there are none to report?
We are what we have been made by watching too much TV and being too liberal with firearms violations and too namby-pamby to get the firearms off the street once and for all, not to mention the number and types of them allowed to be in a person's possession, locked in a gun safe or not.
Some people, I swear, they likely go home at night and jack off their shotguns. Something is not right up there. Nobody NEEDS a personal home arsenal and thousands of rounds to protect their household...that "local war" shtuff only happens in thriller novels and on the screens, big or small.
It's too bad toes have to be stepped on and feelings hurt to make this happen, but people who labor under antiquated ideas about a "right" whose need to exist ceased generations ago are just dead RONG!
"Yeah, and next week they'll be back for your rack of pitons! What then?"
"Well, it's the law, sir."
That stupid, stupid saying that only outlaws will have guns is a cutesy play on words that doesn't mean jack. So stop playing around with the gun lobby and get somebody in office that will at least TRY to do something about these ridiculously powerful gun lobbies, including the citizens' rights defenders, the gun manufacturers, and the black market arms dealers.
"What this country needs" is a rational approach to the problem and fearless determination to get the job done. It's in the public's interest that we won't have to keep reading about incidents like this sad one and other horrifying incidents like school shootings.
If it takes a dozen Ruby Ridge incidents or similar events, so be it, the jerks asked for it. The USA is the last bastion of fully-armed private citizens. We don't need to hold on to that distinction, and it's not because I want the rest of the world to say, "Hey, these Americans finally got the message." It's because I'd like to visit a restaurant and not be caught in the crossfire!
Edit: Having relieved myself of my feelings, this is all I want to say about controlling guns and gun afficionados.
I'd now like to offer my condolences to the family and friends and, yes, the employers (the corporate types who run the Waffle Houses), of Julia Brightwell, the victim of this shooting in Biloxi.
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Yury
Mountain climber
T.O.
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Nov 29, 2015 - 05:45am PT
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Good guy with a gun who is willing to defend his freedom?
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Nov 29, 2015 - 05:50am PT
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What are you trying to say, Yury?
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rincon
climber
Coarsegold
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Nov 29, 2015 - 07:07am PT
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It's pointless to argue with gun nuts, they'll rationalize anything and everything
Have a nice day!
+1
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 29, 2015 - 07:32am PT
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How are you proposing to usher in this utopia without legislation?
I'm not, the question was what would it take to stop the insanity...
Do you honestly think that by removing guns from the hands of a hundred-million law-abiding, responsible citizens you are going to usher in your utopia in which the killing stops?
I think melting down the other two hundred and fifty million guns would be a perfect start and limiting the kinds of weapons which are legal to possess - no grandfathering. There is no cogent argument for an AK for self-defense. There is no argument for flooding the nation with cheap handguns.
I further think guns ought to be titled, licensed and insured exactly like automobiles.
And if you cannot ENSURE that individual lives are not threatened by others, then how can you possibly propose to deprive those others of their NATURAL RIGHT to self-defense?
I would say that you have a second amendment right to own a weapon for self-defense even if the intent of that amendment has now been butchered by an activist right wing SCOTUS majority.
Nobody seriously believes in your utopia. Meanwhile, we DO believe in self-defense and not waiting for cops to arrive later to clean up the mess.
Nobody believes it is politically possible, particularly now that the country is flooded with many hundreds of millions of guns and the right's hysterical rhetoric around them.
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Nov 29, 2015 - 07:34am PT
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Wow!
I rarely if ever post my opinion on a gun control forum. I did and that person flipped out. So if I say people shouldn't have the right to pack heat everywhere they go some are ready to blow my head off for it. Frightening some, but mostly disturbing. Don't get in anybody's face and argue gun control, I forgot how some who carry guns get so threatened about the idea of it being taken away.
I was in the medical and emergency response field for four years and I did see gunshot victims and explosives victims. People have definitely not finished figuring out ways to F themselves up and F up those around them. I feel sorry for the gun nuts for carrying around so much anger about the threat to their right to pack their guns. It's freaky how crazy defensive they get. I better not talk about their right to procreate 24/7 or they'll probably unload on me for certain. Never mind that some think it's their God given right to preserve their family line for all posterity. As if there's any difference between a Jones, a Kanaka, a Garcia, or an Imbutu.
People shouldn't have the right to walk around with their sex organs in their pants. That would cut down on rape and testosterone induced gun violence as well. Leave your sex organs at home to take out and wag in front of intruders. It's the right thing to do. Rest assured I won't be posting anymore anti gun violence opinions for awhile, it's too much work and if you read the opinions of some of the paranoid gun nut protagonists for too long you might end up just like them. In the mean time the frightened cowardly hide behind my pistol 2nd amendment fear mongers can be pretty funny some times, if they weren't so sad, pathetic, depressed, psychotic, lonely, and horny.
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Yury
Mountain climber
T.O.
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Nov 29, 2015 - 07:54am PT
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What are you trying to say, Yury? I apologize for my sense of humour.
How do we know in advance whether a particular guy with a gun is a "good guy" or a "bad guy"?
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Nov 29, 2015 - 07:57am PT
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Oh, Bushman! Oh, Bushman!
Show me your rod!
Who cares that it's Sunday?
Too peaceful, by God!
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Norton
Social climber
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Nov 29, 2015 - 08:00am PT
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How does a person with a traumatic brain injury acquire a firearm?
easy
just pick up any newspaper and go to the private gun sales in classified
no background checks required, anyone can get a gun fast
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Nov 29, 2015 - 08:25am PT
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I meant posterity, not prosperity, what was I thinking? Sorry Mouse, I left my rod at home.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Nov 29, 2015 - 08:31am PT
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Mad Bolter....... good rebuff to these dreamers....
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Jim Clipper
climber
from: forests to tree farms
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Nov 29, 2015 - 10:08am PT
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Maybe an aside. I recently thought that what we want/need are the same weapons. Where does it end? I would kind of like to recreationally shoot a bazooka, but consider my self a pragmatist. (hunting rifles and long barrel revolvers anyone?) My wife, a Luddite, ahem... with the wisdom of the ageds, says everyone should have a musket.
If the police constantly carry high capacity magazines, and assault rifles to neutralize the rare threat, how often will we see the disproportionate use of force? I imagine that it isn't difficult to squeeze off 19+ rounds, maybe too quickly, with just a bit of practice. NATO rounds go bang through walls, cars, tactical vests, etc. Where does that end?
same "weapons" (love of my wife, how does she put up with me?, take my wife, ... really!) bump
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Nov 29, 2015 - 12:46pm PT
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guns don't kill people, fat wafflehouse rednecks kill people...
...with guns.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Nov 29, 2015 - 02:31pm PT
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I'm not, the question was what would it take to stop the insanity...
You can rephrase "the question," but the fact remains that desires have implications.
The only "stopping the insanity" is to create a Minority Report style police state, and even that won't work.
In a FREE nation, a tiny subset will abuse their freedom. We can only deal with such incidents AFTER the fact. What we don't do in a FREE nation is infringe on the rights of law-abiding citizens in pre-crime mode to "stop the insanity."
Really, you get one sort of nation or another. THIS nation was never designed to be "safe." It was designed to be free. Freedom implies some abusers.
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philo
climber
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Nov 29, 2015 - 02:47pm PT
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Would you agree that there are some people who probably shouldn't have access to guns?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Nov 29, 2015 - 03:59pm PT
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Would you agree that there are some people who probably shouldn't have access to guns?
Absolutely!
And I have repeatedly stated and argued that I would favor limited additional gun-control legislation, such as closing gun-show loopholes and requiring purchaser background checks for ALL gun transfers.
There are really two different strands of argumentation in play in these gun threads: 1) "gun control" with the meaning of trying to keep guns out of the hands of those OBVIOUSLY mentally ill, criminals, and so on; 2) "gun control" with the meaning of systematically eliminating guns from (law-abiding) society.
I am in favor of a principled, reasoned approach to (1). I vehemently oppose (2).
Many will respond, "Nobody's trying to take your guns," but that's a lie. There are many on this very thread who advocate for it, and the Hillabeast herself is now advocating for it.
THAT will not fly, and it will be vehemently and even violently opposed by free Americans.
So, if you want to talk about (1), there's lots to talk about, and we can probably even come to some measure of consensus about it. But to my mind, (2) is a non-starter.
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philo
climber
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Nov 29, 2015 - 04:21pm PT
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Well Mad1 I know that in spite of what you choose to believe, I and most of the posters arguing for more effective gun control are coming from the standpoint of your #1 position. Few at this point are calling for the gun confiscations you and others fear. But try to understand that if this carnival of daily insanity at the point of a gun doesn't abate then public opinion will be too loud to drown out by the noise of gun fire.
Just like Anti-smoking reforms, anti drunk driver laws, Marriage Equality acceptance and Marijuana legalization once public opinion tips past 51% approval the politicians fall in line and radical changes occur. It's close now. It would be in regular gun owners own best interest to be like good Muslims and denounce these acts of the few and demand proper change. If you really think armed resistance will protect your gun rights you are living in a nineteenth century delusion.
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Norton
Social climber
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Nov 29, 2015 - 04:27pm PT
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Many will respond, "Nobody's trying to take your guns," but that's a lie. There are many on this very thread who advocate for it, and the Hillabeast herself is now advocating for it.
oh my, I must have missed that in my readings, where Hillary said she wanted to take your guns away from law abiding citizens,
got a couple of credible links I can catch up on where you got that information Mad?
thanks in advance
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Nov 29, 2015 - 04:50pm PT
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where you got that information Mad?
You must be avoiding the constant news about her proposed "mandatory buyback program" a la Australia.
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canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
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Nov 29, 2015 - 04:55pm PT
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Some poor lady working a minimum wage job loses her life and Supertopo manages to make it all about them. You should be so proud.
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Norton
Social climber
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Nov 29, 2015 - 05:01pm PT
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no Mad,
I was referring to the specific language where Hillary states that guns in America
should be removed from otherwise legal gun owners
I can't seem to find that?
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Nov 29, 2015 - 05:06pm PT
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Like your post philo.
Truth.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 29, 2015 - 05:55pm PT
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Many will respond, "Nobody's trying to take your guns," but that's a lie. There are many on this very thread who advocate for it, and the Hillabeast herself is now advocating for it.
Absolutely. There are entire classes of weapons no individual should own - mandatory buyback is the only reasonable approach, along with titling, licensing and insuring guns.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Nov 29, 2015 - 06:02pm PT
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I was referring to the specific language where Hillary states that guns in America should be removed from otherwise legal gun owners
Okay, so that you won't later try to create an ambiguity where there is none, Australia's program did EXACTLY what you said: "guns being removed from otherwise legal gun owners."
Among other implications, including the mandatory buyback aspect, "...the [Australian] legislation required all firearm-license applicants to show 'genuine reason' for owning a gun, which couldn't include self-defense" (from the newamerican link below).
Now, with that clearly on the table, the news reports on this are literally endless, so I can't imagine how you are honestly not seeing this for what it IS.
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/10/16/hillary-clinton-australia-gun-ban-worth-looking-u-s/
"Would Hillary Clinton ban guns in the United States? She apparently supported the idea last Friday, but then supposedly dismissed it three days later. It’s the difference between an on- and off-Teleprompter candidate."
Yeah, she floated it, got a huge negative reaction, and then backpedaled.
http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/politics/item/21803-hillary-clinton-unchained-gun-ban-worth-looking-at
There's nothing obscure about her intentions. She has repeatedly said (placing her own opinion OVER that of the SCOTUS 2010 decision) that the 2nd amendment does NOT refer to an INDIVIDUAL right (which would, oddly, make it the one amendment in the Bill of Rights that would not reference an individual right).
And her repeated references to the Australian program, coupled with, "Worth looking at," clearly indicate that she intends to ban guns in individual hands, force law-abiding citizens to "sell back" their guns to the government, and then (as Australia did) force would-be gun-buyers to demonstrate a "need" that could not include self-defense as a "need".
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Nov 29, 2015 - 06:06pm PT
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There are entire classes of weapons no individual should own
Yup, like WMDs and so forth.
Whatever the police are allowed to use upon the citizenry, the citizenry must be allowed to possess for themselves.
The idea that the police are "high and lifted up" above the citizenry was always a mistake, and its baleful results are being more and more commonly seen. Whatever the cops think they need to defend themselves, the citizenry needs to defend itself.
We DO NOT wait on the cops to keep us safe. That is NOT their job, and endless events have revealed the fallacy of thinking that the cops are there to prevent crime and keep us safe. WE are the first-responders, not the cops. Our own self-defense resides in our own hands, and we only proxy off that responsibility at our peril.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 30, 2015 - 02:34am PT
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Some poor lady working a minimum wage job loses her life and Supertopo manages to make it all about them. You should be so proud.
My response exactly. Vitaliy's response - about a friend being stabbed to death in a similarly unfathomable situation - was one of the few that captures, to me, the gist of this tragic story. We're hearing variants of it all the time. Road rage seems to be the fact pattern du jour, but almost any incidence of people not getting their way can set someone off with dramatic, tragic consequences.
I must add, though, that employees often feel like family, despite what Jim may have experienced. I know that the personal lives of the people with whom I've worked, including those I've employed, affect me deeply. We shouldn't be surprised if the people with whom we spend the most time seem like family to us.
My heart goes out to everyone involved in this tragedy. The grief of all - but particularly that of the shooter's mother, must be overwhelming.
John
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pinckbrown
Trad climber
Woodfords, CA
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Nov 30, 2015 - 05:55am PT
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My heart goes out to the posters that feel the need
to repost the news constantly on a climbing forum.
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Gunkie
climber
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Nov 30, 2015 - 06:00am PT
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On the first Saturday night after NYC rolled out the no smoking in bars and restaurants a bouncer was stabbed to death for asking a patron to not smoke in the establishment.
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Bad Climber
climber
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Nov 30, 2015 - 06:29am PT
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I won't wade into the typical gun-control debate here except to suggest everyone read Sam Harris' piece:
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-riddle-of-the-gun
What strikes me about this story is that it truly seems to be a double tragedy. First of all, of course, for the poor woman. But the man who shot her was clearly out of his mind from the brain injury he received in the previous accident. I've read about this before. Often, sufferers become completely different people, often prone to a violence that was never part of their characters before. If this guy would shoot someone for such a non-reason, it was likely just a matter of time before he killed someone else and/or himself with a gun/car/whatever. He was a ticking bomb. Sad all the way around.
BAd
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Nov 30, 2015 - 07:31am PT
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Being a kindly & sympathetic person, I will respect the wishes of those who consider this an inappropriate to ST thread. I do believe those who needed to say something have now said, or spewed, it in the time this thread has been up. I hope Madbolter1 has saved his work, since he did some impressive ranting.
Bye.
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