Another active shooter armed stand off in progress.

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philo

climber
Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 27, 2015 - 02:05pm PT
At a Planned Parenthood clinic. Hmm why would anyone have problems with Planned Parenthood. paging Carly Fiorina fans.


At least 4 officers, multiple civilians injured in ongoing active shooter situation at Planned Parenthood

By Jesse Paul, Jordan Steffen and John Ingold The Denver Post

Friday, Nov. 27, 2015 - 2:54 p.m.

1/5

An officer waits on the intersection of Windmill and Centennial while facing south towards the scene of a shooting November 27, 2015 in Colorado Springs, CO.
(Photo by Brent Lewis/ The Denver Post)
An officer waits on the intersection of Windmill and Centennial while facing south towards the scene of a shooting November 27, 2015 in Colorado Springs, CO. (Photo by Brent Lewis/ The Denver Post)

Shooter at Colorado Springs Planned Parenthood [PHOTOS]
‹›
COLORADO SPRINGS —At least four police officers have been shot and multiple civilians have been injured in an ongoing active shooter situation at a Colorado Springs branch of Planned Parenthood on Friday afternoon.

"This is still a very active situation," Colorado Springs Police Lt. Catherine Buckley said.

By 2:45 p.m., five people injured in the incident had been transported to Penrose Hospital in Colorado Springs, according to a hospital spokeswoman. The spokeswoman did not know the patients' condition or whether they were police officers or civilians.

Three more victims were taken to Memorial Hospital, according to a spokesman there.

At 2:15, the police department reported on Twitter that officers were "encountering gunfire" from a suspect inside the Planned Parenthood building. Around the same time, a SWAT truck sped out of the scene and an apparently injured person was unloaded onto a gurney. The truck then raced back toward the Planned Parenthood building.


The gunman has not made any demands or made any statements to officers, Buckley said. She said initial reports described his weapon as a long gun, such as a rifle.

"We do not know about this person's mentality or ideology," Buckley said.

Buckley said the first call for service came at 11:38 a.m. and came from the Planned Parenthood address. The branch is located at 3480 Centennial Blvd., just north of West Fillmore Street.

Joan Motolinia said his sister is in the clinic, and he talked to her by phone about 1:30 p.m. She was at the clinic for an appointment and was hiding under a table and was only able to talk briefly.

"She was very afraid," he said.

While she was talking, he could hear gunfire in the background and after about two minutes, his sister hung up on him.

"She was telling me to take care of her babies," he said. "I heard some shots so people were in there shooting for sure."

At a news conference at about 1:30 on Friday afternoon, Buckley said police cannot confirm where the shooter is located and said the situation is "very active." She said officers didn't yet know for sure whether there was a single shooter or multiple gunmen.

She said police have "brought all of our resources to bear" to the situation.

Earlier, Colorado Springs police Commander Kirk Wilson told media at the scene that police were having trouble getting officers to the shooting area.

"We haven't been able to get in the scene yet," he said.

Cathy Alderman, vice president of public affairs for Planned Parenthood of the Rocky Mountains, said the situation was fluid and the organization had little information to go on.

"We're monitoring the situation live like everyone else," she said. "Obviously the safety of our patients and staff is our greatest concern. We're hoping for the best."

Alderman was not sure yet if everyone associated with the clinic was safe.

"We believe people are sheltered in place, but we don't know all that for sure yet." she said.

A photo from the scene showed officers in the area hiding behind their vehicles with their weapons drawn. SWAT officers have been called to the scene.

Colorado Springs police have shut down Centennial Boulevard between Garden of the Gods Road and Fillmore Street. Some businesses in the area are being evacuated. Patrons and workers at a nearby shopping center have been told to shelter in place.

"We were looking out the window and we had an officer wave us back inside," said Brigitte Wolfe, who works at Jun Japanese Restaurant next door. "They have everything blocked off."

Wolfe said there are roughly a dozen police vehicles at the scene. She said officers have guns drawn and are facing the Planned Parenthood branch.

An employee who answered the phone at a nearby King Soopers said a few dozen customers were locked inside under police orders, but she had not seen a shooter or any other violence across the parking lot from the Planned Parenthood building.

"Everybody here is safe," she said, declining to give her name. "That's all I know, but I'm in the back right now."

This is a developing story that will be updated as more information becomes available.

Staff writers Elizabeth Hernandez and Joey Bunch contributed to this report.

Jesse Paul: 303-954-1733, jpaul@denverpost.com or @JesseAPaul

philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 27, 2015 - 02:14pm PT
Live feed from local CSprings news channel.

http://www.kktv.com/livestream?device=tablet&c=y
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Nov 27, 2015 - 02:19pm PT
Joan Motolinia said his sister is in the clinic, and he talked to her by phone about 1:30 p.m. She was at the clinic for an appointment and was hiding under a table and was only able to talk briefly.

"She was very afraid," he said.

I thought the above was interesting--who ever heard of "Joan" being a man's name?




philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 27, 2015 - 02:30pm PT
^^^ Curious as to whether there is a point to your post or not.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 27, 2015 - 02:38pm PT
Terrorism.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Nov 27, 2015 - 02:43pm PT
thought the above was interesting--who ever heard of "Joan" being a man's name?

Miró's mom.

Norton

Social climber
Nov 27, 2015 - 02:44pm PT

so what are the odds it is one older white guy who is angry as hell because he learned that abortions are sometimes performed at PP locations?

and because he so opposes the murdering of fetuses he is going to murder adults

the American Taliban in action, again

philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 27, 2015 - 02:52pm PT
Well I suppose it could be a sleeper cell of Daesh but I didn't know they hated us for our Planned Parenthood.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 27, 2015 - 03:03pm PT
Norton, my money is on not an old guy. Old guys don't do this sh#t, they convince young guys that it's worth dying or going to prison for.
Norton

Social climber
Nov 27, 2015 - 03:05pm PT
yeah, but my idea of an old guy would be like over 50 in this scenario
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 27, 2015 - 03:14pm PT
Couldn't have anything to do with the incredibly shrill and hysterical anti-guberment, take-back-america-and-the-law-in-our-own-hands rhetoric from the right. Or guns. Of course not.
Norton

Social climber
Nov 27, 2015 - 03:57pm PT
here's another one today, Locker

http://www.wlox.com/story/30614080/police-argument-over-cigarette-leads-to-murder-at-biloxi-waffle-house
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Nov 27, 2015 - 04:00pm PT
I don't recall this type of sh!t happening (as often) when I was a kid...

You had your head in the sand.


Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Nov 27, 2015 - 04:09pm PT
I don't recall this type of sh!t happening (as often) when I was a kid...



https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2015/02/10/even-more-black-people-were-lynched-in-the-u-s-than-previously-thought-study-finds/
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Nov 27, 2015 - 04:16pm PT
I think this has always been a very violent country. There was never and halcyon days of peace and goodness.

If we weren't massacring Indians, it was blacks or Irish or miners or textile workers....




The 60' had jfk, rock, mlk, Malcolm X the black panthers... All murdered.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Nov 27, 2015 - 04:19pm PT
It's important to remember that even if the shooter is a right-wing, anti-abortion, pro-life fanatic, we should never ever link those beliefs with his actions.
Remember what we've learned from Obama, who will never under circumstances find even the slightest connection between Islamic terrorists and, well, Islam. Two TOTALLY different things in his mind.

So with that in mind, it's fine to decry the actions of the shooter, but do not under any circumstances link the shooter's actions with the beliefs of the vast majority of right-wing, anti-abortion, pro-life fanatics.
The shooter has perverted the beliefs of most right-wing, anti-abortion, pro-life fanatics, who are undoubtedly appalled by his actions. (And if bunch of fanatics seem to be cheering for the shooter, well, ahem, let's not focus on that too much, we don't want to make anyone uncomfortable.)

If the above rambling makes sense to you--good, you understand Obama perfectly. If it seems a little off, go back and listen to Obama more until you get it!
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Nov 27, 2015 - 04:22pm PT
Just waiting to hear what Dump and rest of the crew especially Jeb is going to say.

So now ISIS will be no longer on the top 10, this will be #1 for the next couple of weeks.

Foxie News gave away a lot of too much info on how to blow a place up?

philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 27, 2015 - 04:23pm PT
Shooter is in custody.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/28/us/colorado-planned-parenthood-shooting.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=photo-spot-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

COLORADO SPRINGS — A gunman was taken into custody late Friday after exchanging gunfire with the police for hours inside a Planned Parenthood center here, the authorities said.

Mayor John Suthers said that the gunman was in custody but that hours of work remained to clear the crime scene, particularly to identify items that the gunman brought with him.

Lt. Catherine Buckley, a Colorado Springs police spokeswoman, suggested earlier that the gunman might have brought explosive devices with him. “The nature of the devices, at this point, we do not know,” she said. “We know the suspect brought several items with him.” She added, “We have to check them to make sure they are not any kind of improvised device.”

The siege began just before 11:30 a.m. and went on into the evening, with multiple police forces and ambulances at the scene. The lieutenant said there were an unknown number of casualties, which included at least four officers and possibly five. People in the surrounding buildings were told to shelter in place.

A Colorado Springs police spokeswoman said there may be hostages at a Planned Parenthood center where officers were exchanging gunfire with an attacker. By REUTERS on Publish Date November 27, 2015. Watch in Times Video »
The Planned Parenthood facility has frequently been a scene of protests since a series of videos secretly recorded by a conservative group showed Planned Parenthood officials discussing the use of fetal organs for research.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Nov 27, 2015 - 04:36pm PT

How about the school shootings???...

Same in the 60's

Oh, no. Not the same. In the 60's the national guard shot students at Kent State and Jackson st.

In addition, Wikipedia lists 17 school shootings In the 60's, including the Texas tower massacre which killed 17, one in Mesa Arizona which killed 5 and one in Orangeburg which killed 3.


Then there was Birmingham 16th st. Sunday school bombing with 200 people in the building.

That doesn't include the linchings which didn't make the news, or Richard Speck who killed 8 nurses in Chicago.

<edit> let's not leave out Chucky Manson & co.


C'mon, locker, wake up. You can find mass murders every decade our country has been in existence. Most were by Christians on Christians...just demographics.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 27, 2015 - 04:37pm PT
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 27, 2015 - 04:38pm PT
I'm beginning to think there must be something in the water in that part of Colorado.
overwatch

climber
Nov 27, 2015 - 05:00pm PT
Amazing he was taken into custody
WBraun

climber
Nov 27, 2015 - 05:12pm PT
Our closest biologic relatives, the chimps

So it went from active shooter to chimpanzees now .... rolls eyes ...

Never underestimate the power of the intard net ....
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Nov 27, 2015 - 05:20pm PT
Actually, it tends to be only about half the world's population that has been/seems to be wired for violence.....


Of course I'm not suggesting that ALL males are batshit crazy, itchy fingered gun-totin fools who view their environment in terms of video games and/or James Bond films..... Of course it's not so. But actually - that is an interesting thought. I wonder what percentage of men DO tend toward an overly aggressive default setting.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Nov 27, 2015 - 05:21pm PT
Every animal's violent.

Don't believe me? Go f*#k with one. See if you don't get bit.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Nov 27, 2015 - 05:56pm PT
giggling over the butterfly.....

Maybe it's just mammals[Click to View YouTube Video]
Gene

climber
Nov 27, 2015 - 06:20pm PT
Three dead.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 27, 2015 - 06:40pm PT
The crazy pronouncements of the ignorant morons that make up the repug presidential field feed unstable people and now you see the result.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Nov 27, 2015 - 06:54pm PT
Did your dad give him the Dexedrine?
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Nov 27, 2015 - 07:00pm PT
Okey dokey.


The Texas Tower Massacre
Charles Joseph Whitman was an ex-Marine who in his youth had been an Eagle Scout and an altar boy. At the age of 25 he stabbed to death his wife and his much loved Mother. He then calmly made his way to the observation tower atop the 27 story Administration Building of the University of Texas in Austin where he barricaded himself in. From that panoramic view above the beautiful tree-shaded lawns of the 232 acre campushe shot to death 14 people and wounded another 31.
That incident took place on the 1st August, 1966. The ramifications and significance of that brief period of destructive madness echo down through the passage of time and haunt us to this day.
The massacre was world news. In 1966 when it happened it was inexplicable and evoked a bewildered response. Newspaper accounts of the incident were read by hushed groups. The media ran with the story for weeks. The event was beyond rational analysis. The society that we were back in the sixties just could not think with such an unprecedented act of senseless violence.
Whitman was eventually gunned down by two brave police officers who broke through the barricade protecting the crazed gunman. Many equally brave private citizens grabbed hunting rifles from their vehicles and gave covering fire for the police to make their assault. Due to the rapid reaction of the police and citizens, the whole affair from the firing of Whitman’s first shot to the final burst of police gunfire that killed him, was over in one hour and thirty six minutes.
The ‘Texas Tower Massacre’ was an unprecedented event that disturbed the psyche of the whole western world. Terrible acts of violence were not of course unknown to history, but prior to 1966 violence was for a reason. The reason may have been love, jealousy, lust, hate, revenge, greed, race or whatever, but always there was a reason. The reasons were always lacking in logic to a more rational person, but there was a ‘reason’ why the perpetrator did what he or she did. The perpetrator could justify their actions. The resultant violence was contained within the parameter of that line of ‘reasoning’. Whitman’s violence was different, it was random. It was not a violence that was brought about for a reason. It was death and destruction as an end in itself. Whitman himself could find no reason for what he was about to do.
He left a sad suicide note explaining that he was deeply troubled by strange and violent thoughts and that he had terrible headaches. It gave no hint of an explanation for his actions. The suicide note made it clear that Whitman had no idea why he felt compelled to do something that he acknowledged was irrational.
The police report showed that at the time of his death Whitman was carrying ‘some pills’. From Whitman’s personal diary (‘Daily Record of C. J. Whitman’) we know that these pills were Dexedrine which was one of the very first of psychiatry’s mass-marketed drugs. Dexedrine has properties very similar to methamphetamine. It can cause psychosis and it can also cause headaches. Whitman had been to see a psychiatrist sometime before the shooting because he was feeling depressed by his home situation.
In the age of innocence that was 1966 we never dreamt that a time would come when ‘inexplicable’ mass shootings of civilians would be so commonplace that they would be in and out of the news within a few days. Then it got worse. In a bid by pharmaceutical companies to improve market penetration psychiatric drugs were promoted into schools. The excuse was that they were needed in order to handle a plethora of newly discovered (invented) childhood ailments. Young children in playgrounds and classrooms began to be gunned down by equally young and utterly drug-deranged classmates.
The perpetrators of these mass random killings have all been on psychiatric drugs… or desperately trying to get off them. As psychiatric drugs have spread around the world, so the inevitable shootings and violence and tragic loss of life spreads with them. The U.S. is no longer the sole province of these senseless mass killings.
The emergence of mass random killings was coincident in both time and place with the advent of psychiatric drugs. Nothing else but psychiatry’s mind-bending drugs could cause a derangement such as would be required to reduce a person to the inhuman state where he or she could kill indiscriminately and casually both loved ones and complete strangers. There are no recordings of such incidents, none whatsoever, prior to the introduction of psychiatric drugs.
How many have died since Charles Whitman’s inaugural psychiatric drug rampage? How many more have to die? The next time that you hear of a mass shooting check the following day’s newspapers. There will be a line down the bottom of the article mentioning that the killer had been taking psychiatric ‘medication’. The article will be accompanied by a psycho-babble quote from a psychiatric spokesperson. The whole psychiatric industry goes into well rehearsed, disinformation mode when these events happen.
Pharmaceutical companies and prescribing psychiatrists have not had much to worry about in the past. Next week marks the 42nd anniversary of the Texas Tower Massacre. Charles Whitman’s inaugural psychiatric drug rampage on the 1st August, 1966 signalled the arrival of the brave new world of psychiatric ‘medication’. Despite the efforts of some very determined and educated groups and private individuals, many of them victims of psychiatric drugs who understand full well what is causing these shootings, no action has been taken other than to place warning labels on the pill bottles. That is akin to handing out cluster bombs marked ‘Use With Care’.
A small brain tumour was found at Whitman’s autopsy. Pathologist Coleman de Chenar said that the tumour was “certainly not the cause of the headaches” and “could not have had any influence on his psychic behaviour”. Despite that pronouncement it was posited that somehow it was the tumour which had caused Whitman’s behaviour. The plausibility of that theory depended solely on the basis that nothing else within the range of our experience presented itself. That is no longer true, in fact it is now either naive or deliberately deceptive. The pathologist was entirely correct.
Charles Whitman was by no means the first person in the world to have a brain tumour, he was however amongst the first generation of the public to take psychiatric drugs. We recognize his symptoms now as acknowledged side effects of psychiatric drug medications.
The lack of gun control is also sometimes cited as the reason for mass shootings. It is prudent to remember that it was the public who, by seizing hunting rifles from their pick-ups, as soon as the bizarre ‘Texas Tower’ circumstances became clear, were a crucial part of the response that stopped Whitman’s rampage so quickly. That covering fire from the public, requested by the quick thinking police, ensured that the killings virtually stopped at that point. The public being armed was seen as an asset by those police, not as a threat. The police were not carrying weapons that could cover the necessary distance to the top of the tower.
Whether or not we need the public’s guns controlled is not a subject for this article; the plain and obvious fact that we need psychiatry controlled most certainly is. Until we make psychiatry and pharmaceutical companies legally and financially responsible for the results of the insane marketing and peddling of these drugs, then be prepared for more random mass shootings.
A whole generation of journalists, almost without exception, saw fit to ignore the blatant problems associated with psychiatric drug usage. Some are now blinking in the sunlight of truth with recent articles showing a true understanding of the problem is starting to emerge.
To be fair, it has not been easy without a study of the abundant and complex information to be appraised of the real situation. Couple that with the bottomless pit of pharmaceutical company largesse and you have the whole problem in a nutshell.
The Texas Tower Massacre marked our civilisation’s unknowing rite of passage into a new era of psychiatric induced insanity. Forty two years and untold deaths later, enough is enough. It must finally stop, otherwise we are all mad.
Philip Barton
26th July, 2008
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Nov 27, 2015 - 07:07pm PT
The crazy pronouncements of the ignorant morons...

Jim, I think that if you take your statement to its logical conclusion you’ll have to rescind the 1st amendment. Would you censor political figures because in your eye they are inciting violence? When a monster like this guy does something which is incomprehensible to the rest of us it’s questionable to try to make political hay out of what might have been his motivations. This comes up with most of these acts, and usually doesn’t turn out to be true (i.e. Loughner shooting Congresswoman Giffords.) It’s a safe assumption that today’s shooter felt like some superhero saving babies (or some such bizarre thing,) but sadly that sentiment lives deeply in many aspects of our culture.

The Republican candidates are all outspoken on abortion (although Trump seems to see that it’s a third rail.) I don’t agree with any of them on this and I think it will hurt them in 2016. Nonetheless they have the right to express their points of view.

An advantage to capturing the guy alive is that we at least have a chance of learning what makes him tick. Of course that will be kept secret.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 27, 2015 - 07:19pm PT
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Nov 27, 2015 - 08:09pm PT
Looks like a run of the mill, rightwing domestic terrorist.

Bank robbery? Too funny.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Nov 27, 2015 - 09:04pm PT
RFK's words are profound, and stand the test of time. One of the things that makes them universally appealing is that he does not aim his remarks at any individuals or group of people. He speaks about basic principles.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 27, 2015 - 09:56pm PT
Best wishes, and condolences to the brave Police Officers, that responded and were injured or killed, and their families & friends.

My condolences to the families & friends of the folks that died or were injured in this horrible attack.
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Nov 27, 2015 - 09:56pm PT
I'm beginning to think there must be something in the water in that part of Colorado.




That ain't no tall drink of Simply Orange.




As Jim points out, when the ostensible leaders of the nation lead off with bigoted, racist hate speech, the crankloons foam at the mouth and load up. A leader, by definition, influences the behavior of others.

I'd like to see the victims' families sue Fiorina as an unindicted co-conspirator. It is completely irresponsible, and negligent for her to disseminate that false video of Planned Parenthood engaged in the harvesting of fetus brains. That is akin to shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater - not protected by free speech doctrine.

They might not win the lawsuit, but it would send a message to other would-be inciters of violence.


10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired Climber
Nov 27, 2015 - 10:15pm PT

Every animal's violent.

Except humans are the only species that kill because of greed, and hate.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Nov 27, 2015 - 11:13pm PT
Except humans are the only species that kill because of greed, and hate.

You sure?
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
Nov 27, 2015 - 11:20pm PT
snor-gasm
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Nov 27, 2015 - 11:41pm PT

Every animal's violent.


Except humans are the only species that kill because of greed, and hate.

Nope... chimps sometimes kill for giggles.

Big cats frequently kill stuff just because.... maybe for giggles.

Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 05:43am PT
Well, the mug shot of the suspected murderer shows a person who looks (IMO) like a bit of a crankloon. But then, walking down any sidewalk street I see people with similar looks in their eye almost daily.

Also, I apologize for the tangential post earlier. It was disrespectful of those affected by the horror. What a terrible thing to have happen any day of the year, but the holiday season is supposed to be a time of year where we marvel in the wonder of love for others. Very sad that for so many people this time of year will forever bring memories of such sadness.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 07:10am PT
The perp's mug shot is a doozie.
Looks just like a radical Muslim extremist Syrian refugee.
Just look at that beard.
Or a climate change denier.
Just look at that hair.
Or a ST conservative on a bender.
Just look at those eyes.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 28, 2015 - 07:20am PT
He actually looks like another Colorado Springs radical evangelical minister just busted for child porn.
He'll have Carly Fiorina as a dearh row pen pal.....they have a lot in common.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 07:27am PT
Whether it was the earlier episode of Caribou Barbie with her "don't retreat reload" comments and "bullseye" graphics on targeted Congressional districts that contributed to the Gabby Gifford shooting or Carly Fiorina's frothing lie fest about the brain harvesters at PP that motivated this sociopath the instigators will not be held accountable for their deplorable hate speech.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 07:45am PT
WTF got puberty?

Hey WTF here is a priceless example of someone who's focus on a single issue - in this case, gun control - causes them to lose perspective and resort to blind inane assumptions.


Oct 6, 2015 - 12:41pm PT


Thank you madbolter but it's been pointed out time after time that philo is never going to put forth intellectual thoughts.
That is pretty funny.


Know that those of us who actually see the issues ignore morons like philo and continue to address the issues with carefully thought out solutions and not left wing propaganda talking points that are meant to distract you with vitriolic bs instead of rational solutions.
OK so where is your careful thoughts on solutions?



giving up my rights to arms is not on the table.
What if new regulations deem you legally unfit for gun ownership?




Philo can give his up all he wants that's the nwo he seeks
Quite an ignorant assumption. What else ya got in her brain trust?
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 08:06am PT
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 08:06am PT
Moving on.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 08:14am PT
scurrying out like clockwork Kochroaches.

Of course most of us know if the shooter had been a brown person or a Muslim this thread would be soooooo relevant to these same Kochroaches
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 08:31am PT
overwatch

climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 08:33am PT
He definitely has the stare
Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
Nov 28, 2015 - 08:34am PT
Great to have you back Philo . . . disregard your detractors if you can.

Violence is never a solution as it only perpetuates the problem.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 08:45am PT
RIP

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 28, 2015 - 08:51am PT
Meth tweaker maybe, Trump supporter....I'd bet on it.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 09:05am PT
I'd bet he didn't vote for Obama.
SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
Nov 28, 2015 - 09:10am PT
Well at least he wasn't trying to sell cigarettes, or walking on a highway with a knife, robbing a store, or playing with a toy gun. White guys are tough. No doubt about it. They can take out a God fearing, huge hearted family man and live to tell about it.

Susan

Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Nov 28, 2015 - 09:45am PT
jonnyrig-

You're way out of line.

Have you looked up the definition of forum lately?

Harsh, raw political debate does not tear at the fabric of society. On the contrary, honest debate amongst open minded people, on a nonviolent medium, IS part of the fabric of Democracy.

Has your family ever argued? Do you find it productive to launch such caustic personal attacks on them?

I don't visit this forum to exclusively read about climbing, pat backs and sing kumbaya. I don't agree with Chief and VBaun often, but I enjoy their perspective and I know the worst they can do with their views is cast one vote.

I've read the same fuked up style of personal attack on Chief and others, so this style of engagement doesn't really boil down to politics- its more about lack of personal control and immaturity.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Nov 28, 2015 - 09:50am PT
Did jonnyrig delete his post?

That always happens. I rant about air...
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 09:51am PT
Annonymous cowards have mastered the back delete.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 11:13am PT
Well you don't know Donini do you DipShit!

Maybe you should look into a dictionary and learn what words really mean.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 11:23am PT
No you are a DipShit! because you bandy inane comments with words you don't grasp.
Yes he said that but only someone mirroring would come to the conclusion you did.


You and the other "conservatives" always cry about a non-existant liberal lock step as the reason folks call you and others out. Say stupid stuff and expect to be seen and treated as stupid.
And the irony is that the nonsence that burbles out of your pieholes is a lockstep regurgitation of FOX talking points. You are Kochpuppets.


In light of the xenophobic, misoginistic hate speech that spews forth from the Donald, If people actually consider tRump a serious Presidential candidate then they can not themselves expect to be taking seriously.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 11:29am PT
That's your mirrored opinion.

And since you've never actually interacted with me in any substantive way it was a pretty DipShit! opinion.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 11:45am PT
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Nov 28, 2015 - 12:09pm PT
If people actually consider tRump a serious Presidential canidate then they can not themselves expect to be taking seriously.

"canidate" [sic]?

Seriously? And this from a guy bashing on others about "using words correctly"? This from an era in which browsers themselves underline misspelled words in red?

It is to laugh. Pot calling kettle.

And Philo is one that takes the Hillabeast seriously, while bagging on people that are just desperately looking for ANY candidate that is not establishment and utterly owned by the big corporations. So, for him, wanting the "change" that the Obumbalator never delivered means that you are not to be taken seriously as a human being.

Yup, that's the level of "thinking" around here.

You're a very angry and violent person to interact with.

So true. You've been more charitable than most about it, but even you are finally driven to declare the obvious truth.

That's your mirrored opinion.

I have no idea what that means. Perhaps you don't have the way with words that you imagine you do.

And since you've never actually interacted with me in any substantive way

What bar would one have to get over to have any legitimate right to have any opinions about your online "persona"?

it was a pretty DipShit! opinion.

So says... who? God?

Some other epistemically-ideal observer?

No, really... just in your....

Wait for it....







Opinion.

We all have 'em, and we all have the right to express 'em. Some are less stinky than others.

Why don't you back off just enough to allow for people not sharing yours to be fully and intelligently human, and thus not worthy of continual insults?
jonnyrig

climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 12:10pm PT
philo

climber

Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 09:51am PT
Annonymous cowards have mastered the back delete.

You can call me whatever you like. I am not anonymous.
I'm simply choosing to disengage with you phil. There's no point to it.
Have a nice day.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Nov 28, 2015 - 12:11pm PT
Angry White Men

"Philo," you seriously scare me far more than virtually anybody else on the Taco Stand.

Are YOU armed?

Edit: Please explain how your graphic is not flagrantly racist and hate speech.

Since I believe you are too biased to see it, let's imagine a correlative showing a non-representative subset of black criminals (take your pic; plenty enough have been in the news). Now, in THAT graphic, the caption reads: "Angry Black Men. America's Domestic Terrorists. Black gangbangers enable, arm, and protect them, while the liberal left media inspires, encourages, and brainwashes them."

How would you like THAT graphic, "philo"? Would THAT one be racist?

I know it's hard for you to grasp, but our culture engages in flagrant racism against whites as well. The pendulum swings both ways, and the solution to racism is to point it out with disapproval WHICHEVER way the pendulum is swinging at the moment.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 12:20pm PT
Same ol gang of hypocrites, same ol disingenuous drivel.
They are all upset because I made fun of gun nutz and made them cry.

Children, children, children maybe you should go suckle your bullets.
c wilmot

climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 12:29pm PT
I have always found it odd that some white males hate all other white males and go to the point of being openly racist against what they themselves are.


madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Nov 28, 2015 - 12:29pm PT
because I made fun of gun nutz and made them cry

Pretty full of yourself.

You don't (and can't) make me cry. You make me disgusted.

You destroy entire threads and then fancy yourself a "winner."

You live, eat, and breathe the ability to produce vile insults.

Yup, like jonnyrig, I'm done with this latest attempt to reason with you.

I shouldn't have gotten suckered into responding to your swirling vortex of filth. My mistake.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 12:30pm PT
So you belive facts and truth are vile eh?

Oh yes it's just so hard being white in America.

I believe you have me confused with thechief.
Reason with me? Are you kidding? Please indicate one reasonable thing you've ever directed towards me.
"Am I armed?" What a question. are you frightened?
Perhaps you shouldn't bring blind dogma to an intellectual argument.
Get over yourself.

philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 12:46pm PT
Then you shouldn't take what I or Donini said personally.
c wilmot

climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 12:46pm PT
Its about old white men wanting to feel above other people by generalizing all other white men as bad while seeing themselves as perfect.

Nothing new....
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Nov 28, 2015 - 12:53pm PT
Left wing extremist ranters. Intolerant, racist, xenophobic, bigots. Fits most of you to a T. You are what you pronounce others to be. What a waste.

philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 01:06pm PT
No worries Locker. I actually have good reading comprehension and understood what you were saying. And thanks for your support.

It's amusing to hear what the "blinders on" set imagines me to be.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 01:12pm PT
Cheers!
And reminisce about the good ol back in the daze days when men were men and sheep looked better.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 01:26pm PT
All too true.

By the way the shirts reads "I'm not disturbing the peace, I'm disturbing the war."

So dangerous, so extreme.

Just not extreme enough for the X-treme 3 foot runouts at the gym.
LOL!
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Nov 28, 2015 - 01:34pm PT
People killing other people for killing other people for killing other people.

Stupid mental speculators speculating about stupid mental speculators speculating about stupid mental speculators.

Maybe some of our evolved psychological tendencies, which worked so advantageously for our evolutionary ancestors in their evolutionary environment are not working so well for us today in our environment.

Or maybe we do have this whole reality thing figured out :-) When I ask myself really sincerely if I'm right and listen really hard I can hear myself telling myself that I'm right, so I believe myself. It's worked so far.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Nov 28, 2015 - 01:42pm PT
Spectreman is no wuss. This I can confirm. We may not agree on some things (true about everyone here), but he's been reasonable in his statements and definitely can climb. Outside. Old School.

Others on this thread have not been so reasonable in their postings in my opinion (and it's worth exactly what you paid for it).

Carry on...
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Nov 28, 2015 - 01:53pm PT
^ I'm sure he'd consider climbing in the gym with you too Locker. :) God knows that is where I spend most of my climbing these days given other obligations. I know some believe that makes me less than human, but oh well, I'll have to live with that painful knowledge. :)
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Nov 28, 2015 - 01:54pm PT
"This I can confirm."...


I take it you are related to Lorenzo???...

You didn't know my full real name is Callorenzoe?
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 02:04pm PT
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Nov 28, 2015 - 02:19pm PT
What? Licking the gym holds are a) tasty (mmmm salt), and b) encourage the development of a very strong immune system.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Nov 28, 2015 - 02:37pm PT
^ You just don't want to snag your satin robe on the rad stalactite holds on the bitchen' over-hanging roof feature.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 03:43pm PT
Sounds like Schizophrenia according to this news piece: http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/gunman-custody-attack-planned-parenthood-clinic-35458825
Hood said that Dear rarely talked to them, and when he did, he tended to offer unsolicited advice such as recommending that Hood put a metal roof on his house so the U.S. government couldn't spy on him.
Neighbors who lived beside Dear's former South Carolina home say he hid food in the woods as if he was a survivalist
Dear also lived part of the time in a cabin with no electricity or running water in Black Mountain, North Carolina. He kept mostly to himself, his neighbors said. When he did talk, it was a rambling combination of a number of topics that didn't make sense.

Tangentially...Abut 15 miles away from where I currently am, in Asheville.


It's very difficult. An ill person needs help to manage, if they cannot on their own. There is a faction of thinkers who are talking about somehow corralling the mentally ill person's rights, as a way to reduce potential episodes such as what this thread is, or originally as, about. It's not possible. Mental illness is pervasive and often fluid.

One thing I do wonder though, if the suspect does have Schizophrenia, and if the many (white, male, recent) mass murders also did - is this targeting of groups a recent thing(for Schizophrenics). If so, could it be possible if they are "getting direction" through the hate-mongering our media/politicians have espoused. THAT bears thinking about.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 03:53pm PT
There is a likely connection but I'd contend that hate media is the nexus.
Norton

Social climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 04:06pm PT
The gunman suspected of storming a Planned Parenthood clinic and killing a police officer and two others told the officers who arrested him “no more baby parts,’’ after being taken into custody, according to a law enforcement official.


The attack on the clinic was “definitely politically motivated,’’ the official — who has been briefed on the investigation and spoke on condition of anonymity because it is still unfolding — told The Washington Post. NBC News, which first reported the comment attributed to suspect Robert Lewis Dear, said Dear also mentioned President Obama in a range of statements to investigators that left unclear his precise motivation in targeting the clinic.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2015/11/28/investigators-search-for-motive-in-planned-parenthood-shooting-that-left-three-dead/
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 28, 2015 - 04:43pm PT
Dude's another Atlanta Bomber/Unabomber, same diseased mind.

I haven't perused the entire thread to see if it came up, better uses of my time, but it's noteworthy that the cop he killed was also a pastor and vocally pro life.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 04:45pm PT
Oh Burchie you're adorable, you really think people would care to spend time with you. Isn't that precious.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 04:54pm PT
New movie idea.
Honey I shrunk the Dick.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 05:10pm PT
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 05:14pm PT
That's literally a list of all the things Americans are traditionally afraid of. Though you forgot black people. That should be at the top of the list.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 05:16pm PT
It also doesn't list science and other boogy men.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 05:22pm PT
Only in the same sense that it was noteworthy that all victims wore different underwear.
In other words its not.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 05:34pm PT
Potatohead why should it concern you how another spends their time? Are you the type who complains about people taking selfies? As if there is anything wrong with it. Why is this an issue you feel compelled to engage in? Have you nothing better to do with your time?


I can check-in once-a-week and its the same'ol desperate 6-8 peeps on this site. Really sad.
So why am I the one you feel a need to parent?


You are obsessed with anger, misery, and hate.
Pretty bold ASSumption about someone you do not know. I am hardly any of those things.

Perhaps you'd be better off tending to your own home rather than telling others how to decorate theirs.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 05:41pm PT
Oh Tradhog get your dick out of your ass!
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 05:49pm PT
You'd like my Brother he is a hateful narcissist like you.

Your pathetic assumptions about my world expose the weakness in your own life.
John M

climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 06:05pm PT
Philo says …..be an adult, just ignore what you don't like..

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John M

climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 06:15pm PT
Philo says if one doesn't like a poster or post, then be an adult and just ignore it.

So be an adult and just ignore my post.. Easy huh..
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Nov 28, 2015 - 06:16pm PT
Amazing how a crazy guy killing three people inspires such division here.

As if there's a thing anyone could do about it....

Such emotional hand-wringing.

philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 06:20pm PT
Well Fear what about prohibiting a man like this access to guns as a start?



Saturday 6:00 p.m. UPDATE

Multiple national news outlets reported Saturday evening that suspected Colorado Springs Planned Parenthood shooter Robert Lewis Dear told investigators "no more baby parts," appearing to allude to a controversy surrounding undercover videos released by anti-abortion activists about Planned Parenthood. The reports cite unnamed law enforcement sources.

In the videos, released this summer, officials with the nonprofit discussed their practice of providing fetal tissue taken during abortions for research.

Saturday 4:00 p.m. UPDATE

Three additional law enforcement officers were injured Friday after an active shooter and hours-long standoff in Colorado Springs, officials said Saturday afternoon.

Related:Colorado Springs shooting suspect lived solitary, mysterious life
In total, eight law enforcement officers were injured in the shooting, in addition to the killing of University of Colorado at Colorado Springs police Officer Garrett Swasey, according to a news release from agencies investigating the incident.

Five officers had gunshot wounds. Four were from the Colorado Springs Police Department and one was with the El Paso County Sheriff's Office. Three more CSPD officers were injured, but did not have gunshot wounds, the release said. Authorities did not disclose the nature of the officers' injuries.

All are in good condition and expected to recover.

A spokesman for Penrose-St. Francis Hospital said three law enforcement officers were in the hospital as of Saturday afternoon.

Four civilians were taken to local hospitals with gunshot wounds. They are all in good condition, the release said.

Two civilians were killed. Their names will not be released until autopsies are completed by the El Paso County Coroner's Office and next of kin are notified - possibly Monday - the release said.

A BearCat armored vehicle was used to enter the Planned Parenthood building, 3480 Centennial Blvd., during the chaos Friday, the authorities said.

That vehicle helped take injured, and uninjured, victims from the Planned Parenthood building. An additional 24 people were evacuated from the Planned Parenthood building. They were not harmed, the release said.

Another 300 people were sheltered in the King Soopers grocery store and nearby businesses during the standoff, which began after an active shooter was reported at 11:38 a.m. Friday.

Colorado Springs police officers responded before requesting help. More than five hours later, Robert Lewis Dear was taken into custody.

The Colorado Springs Police Department, the El Paso County Sheriff's Office, the University of Colorado at Colorado Springs Police Department, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, the Colorado Bureau of Investigation and the Federal Bureau of Investigation are investigating the incident.

-

Contact Stephen Hobbs: 636-0275

Twitter @bystephenhobbs
c wilmot

climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 06:25pm PT
Meanwhile these types of killings go on every day in inner cities across the US. The difference? The victims are black.... and so are the perps.....

How come none of you care about THAT?
John M

climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 06:30pm PT
Locker, remember that dude who posted big long sections of the bible? Remember how people ignored that. LOL.. maybe I will try that. That should get people ignoring
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 06:30pm PT
c.wilmot where do you get off assuming noone cares about these deaths.
Why do you suppose some of us are willing to suffer the childish slings and arrows of the 2nd Ammendment misconstruers?


John M get back to us when puberty kicks in.
jonnyrig

climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 06:37pm PT
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/your-online-secrets/201409/internet-trolls-are-narcissists-psychopaths-and-sadists

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3480687/
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 06:54pm PT

"Prey we never meet in person"...

Why's that SpudButt?
Could it be that actually meeting someone would challenge your pre-conceived and biased assumptions.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Nov 28, 2015 - 06:59pm PT
potatoHead = SkipT

Yes, I hope we never meet

some people have said such terrible things, that they would need a good pummeling when they finally come out of their troll cave.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 07:01pm PT
Yes we knew. He is still all panty twisted having gotten the boot for acting like he is now.
Children learn slowly sometimes.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 07:08pm PT
Why do you care SpudButt?
What skin is it off your O-ring?
Why do you choose to waste your oh so precious time here if it is so terribly borish?
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Nov 28, 2015 - 07:40pm PT
Let's make everyone happy.

Typical Canadian...
zBrown

Ice climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 07:41pm PT
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 07:42pm PT
First, though it's already been mentioned ad-nauseum, this is not a "climbing" forum it is a "climber's" forum.
Secondly you do care which is why you stalk me. You really should be embarrased to be so juvenile.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 07:47pm PT
PTSD is such a tragedy in cases like this.
Norton

Social climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 07:53pm PT
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 08:01pm PT
Dooder you're just like Monty Python's Black Knight.




Or is that your natural height?
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 08:18pm PT
washingtonpost.com

Did ‘whiteness’ save the life of the alleged Planned Parenthood shooter?

By Peter Holley November 28 at 3:53 PM
After Dylan Roof allegedly executed nine worshipers in a historic black church in Charleston, S.C., in June, police arrested the 19-year-old without incident, bought him a hamburger and later described the white supremacist as “quiet” and “calm.”

His peaceful apprehension echoed the arrests white mass murderers like Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh and Aurora, Colo., theater shooter James Holmes, both of whom ended up alive and in handcuffs after carrying out mass slaughters.

Months before Roof’s arrest, meanwhile, widely circulated videos captured 12-year-old Tamir Rice and 22-year-old John Crawford III being shot and killed by police within seconds of authorities arriving on scene.

[Investigators search for motive in Planned Parenthood shooting that left three dead]

At the time they were shot by police officers, both individuals were playfully holding fake weapons, and neither had harmed a single person. Both individuals were not only young, innocent and black — they were also dead by the time the public learned their names.

For some observers, the humane treatment that Roof, Holmes and McVeigh received from authorities versus the split-second executions of Rice and Crawford, highlights a disturbing contrast in how law enforcement treats suspects depending on their race. During moments of alleged crisis, critics maintain, police not only perceive white suspects versus black ones differently, but may also perceive the existence of a crisis differently.

That disturbing contrast resurfaced again this week after two incidents that ended up fatefully sandwiched together. The first was a shocking video — shot more than a year ago — showing Chicago police officer Jason Van Dyke fatally shooting Laquan McDonald 16 times, suddenly and without warning, while the 17-year-old appeared to veer away from police. Van Dyke has been charged with first-degree murder in the shooting.

Days later, photos of Robert Lewis Dear, handcuffed and calm, emerged after the 57-year-old stormed a Planned Parenthood clinic in Colorado Springs, Colo., killing three people, including a police officer.

On social media that striking juxtaposition — one an alleged killer, alive and well, the other a teenager, innocent, but dead — produced outrage.




Using the hashtag #WhiteTerrorism, the tweets argue that attacks by right-wing groups in America account for a greater share of violence and domestic terrorism than attacks by Muslim extremists.

According to a study released in June by the New America Foundation and cited by Global Post:

Almost twice as many people have died in attacks by right-wing groups in America than have died in attacks by Muslim extremists. Of the 26 attacks since 9/11 that the group defined as terror, 19 were carried out by non-Muslims. Yet there are no white Americans languishing inside the prison camp at Guantanamo Bay. And there are no drones dropping bombs on gatherings of military-age males in the country’s lawless border regions.

Mark Potok, senior fellow at the Southern Poverty Law Center, told CNN that some estimate the number of people “involved in some way with sovereign citizen extremism” as high 300,000 people, with around 100,000 people forming the heart of the movement.

Most Read
1
‘No more baby parts,’ suspect in attack at Colo. Planned Parenthood clinic told official
2
Alleged Colorado gunman was adrift and alienated
3
Source: Colorado suspect politically motivated, said ‘no more baby parts’ after attacking Planned Parenthood

fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Nov 28, 2015 - 08:18pm PT
Meanwhile these types of killings go on every day in inner cities across the US. The difference? The victims are black.... and so are the perps.....

How come none of you care about THAT?

Because the hand-wringers aren't good with critical thinking. They respond emotionally to what they're spoonfed on the teevee. And the scum in our legislatures know that and immediately attempt to exploit that temporary blindness.

And I'm not talking left or right or whatever political nonsense is the panic du jour. You can just as easily spin up the right to wantonly bomb brown people with "Islamic Terrorism" as you can spin up the left with "Scary black icky guns killing women and children".

It works every time.... simply amazing. But it is what it is I fear...



The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 28, 2015 - 08:24pm PT
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 08:28pm PT
Any comment about this?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Nov 28, 2015 - 08:31pm PT
Drinking Windex again Cosmic...?
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 28, 2015 - 08:48pm PT
Any comment about this?


BFD. They'll just get their "Guns" the same place these dudes got em...


NEWS
2 men charged with murder in brutal rape and killing of pastor's pregnant wife...

Chicago man arrested, charged in 9-year-old Tyshawn Lee’s execution-style slaying...
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Nov 28, 2015 - 09:06pm PT
Tyshawn allegedly lured the kid , who was shooting baskets , into an alley and executed him to get back at his father , a rival gang member...
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 28, 2015 - 09:17pm PT
I'm curious to know what DOJ or FBI "BGC's" them "Thugs" amongst the other tens of thousands of shooting thugs this year alone in the US, went through in order to acquire their, guns?

Any comment Philo?

Hint: None. Zero. Zilch. No need for such a thing where they get their guns.


Amazing how the POTUS made absolutely NO reference, nor has he ever, to either one of these latest horrific killings that just keep happening daily.

Any comment, Philo?
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 09:23pm PT
Unless you think the gang thugs are smelting their own gun metal you must acknowledge that all these "illegal" guns started off as "legal" guns.
The illegal gun trade hemmoraging in this country can be stemmed.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 28, 2015 - 09:28pm PT
Ah, well, most of their guns are NOT manu'd in the US, Philo. The Thugs weapon of choice these days are made in Sweden, So Africa, China or Russia and is nick named the "Chopper". In most cases they get into the US via the black market by way of the, wait, here it comes, the Mexican Cartel.


The illegal gun trade hemmoraging in this country can be stemmed.

Really.... How? The same way the heroin illegal drug trade has been, stemmed?
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Nov 28, 2015 - 09:52pm PT
Demand-side problems are NEVER solved with promises of false supply-side solutions.

Ever.

The premise that you can fix broken human behavior with stuff or a lack of stuff is a fallacy.

However, governments have always fooled the sheep into thinking otherwise. And plenty money is wasted on those supply-side fallacies.... An industry of sorts.






Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Nov 28, 2015 - 10:01pm PT

Nov 28, 2015 - 09:28pm PT


The illegal gun trade hemmoraging in this country can be stemmed.

Really.... How? The same way the heroin illegal drug trade has been, stemmed?

Ronny Rayguns and Ollie North gave us a pretty good blueprint for how governments can monopolize both industries to their ends...
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 28, 2015 - 10:10pm PT
Sorry Lorenzo.

The Maxican Cartel gun running business has been around a lot longer than Reygun and North ever could have been. And the quantity is 1000 times greater than either of the above could have ever sold to Iran.

Hell, even the current Fast and Furious DOJ has been at this illegal gun trade antics.

But of course, them facts are not, shhhssssh, supposed to be talked about.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2015 - 12:03am PT


To all "pro life" activists who would like to distance themselves from the "lone", "troubled", "isolated" man who terrorized Planned Parenthood staff and patients yesterday, I submit that this is but the latest attack that is part of a long history of "pro life" terrorism. Don't like the word "terrorism"? At what point does the term apply? Is it with death threat #500?

How many bombings would it take before we would call this "terrorism" directed at any other business? Seriously, how many of you (besides my PP colleagues) go to work every day knowing you and your customers are going to be harassed and threatened to the extent Planned Parenthood staff and patients are? (And to be clear, the stats presented here do not include the daily harassment in emails, on the phone, and in person.)

It took only a couple of anthrax letters directed at Congress before everyone clearly understood the acts as terrorist. Why, after 655 anthrax threats directed at abortion and family planning providers, are we still unable to define terrorism as it is?
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Nov 29, 2015 - 04:27am PT
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Nov 29, 2015 - 05:00am PT
Chief posted
Really.... How? The same way the heroin illegal drug trade has been, stemmed?

Heroin isn't available legally. Guns are. Heroin is the end product and it is consumed. Guns are not consumed, they are possessed and used. Require registration for guns and then hold the last person who registered the gun responsible as an accomplice in whatever crime was committed with the gun. Require background checks and registration any time the gun changes hands. If your gun is lost/stolen and you report it as such you won't be held responsible. This obviously won't stop someone who legally purchased a gun from using it in a crime but we appear to have accepted as a culture that tens of thousands of people dying to guns every year is just what it means to be the good 'ol US of A.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Nov 29, 2015 - 05:07am PT
The pen IS mightier than the sword, because the "the pen" (ideas spread around by whatever media) is what motivates and "justifies" the sword and the gun of oppression.

It's not just "radical Islam" and "radical Christianity" that is at fault.

WHENEVER a group of people use "the pen" to spread oppressive ideas and then become so enthralled with their "pens" that they escalate to "the gun" to ENFORCE their will opposing the natural rights of others--then you have tyranny.

The great irony is that many of you on this thread are so enthralled with your "pens" that you strive to band together to strip people of their right to self-defense. And YOU WILL (if you can) use the power of the GUN to enforce your wishes, because your own anti-gun legislation has no FORCE without the power of the GUN. So, you are hung on your own petard and don't even see it. As long as the GUN is used as YOU see fit and by proxies of YOUR choosing, it's a good gun. But people that simply don't agree with you should NOT have guns.

This nation was NOT founded on your principles or by people like you. And the FEW incidents you use as "justification" for your "principles" are in fact non-sequiturs.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Nov 29, 2015 - 05:15am PT
we appear to have accepted as a culture that tens of thousands of people dying to guns every year is just what it means to be the good 'ol US of A.

Nope! I, for one, don't "accept" it in YOUR terms.

I, for one, recognize the FACTS. And the FACTS are that if you take away black-on-black crime, gangland crime, drug-related crime (yeah, that "war on drugs" has been a real winner!), what you are left with are a few-thousand shootings in a nation of 1/3 of a billion people, not "tens of thousands."

See, the problem is that people ACTUALLY "accept" that blacks are just gonna keep on killing other blacks... by the thousands. The politicians DO NOT want to touch that lightening rod. So, they PRETEND that guns are the problem and that (somehow, miraculously) just the right slate of LAWS is gonna solve the "gun problem."

There IS no "gun problem." That's a radical oversimplification. If you want to fixate on every shooting, then you MUST consider each and every one as an isolated incident and try to establish the causal chains that produced it. It's not REALITY to wave a magic wand over "gun violence" and PRETEND that you understand it and that you can legislate it away.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Nov 29, 2015 - 07:28am PT
Crazy guy, radicalized by rightwing media, shoots up a Planned Parenthood clinic because he believed Hannity's bs, over-hyped, selectively edited videos about them selling "baby parts". That's what happened. Deal with it.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 29, 2015 - 07:39am PT
Robert Dear is clearly a case where abortion would have been beneficial. Unfortunately, his mother chose to bring him to term.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 29, 2015 - 07:46am PT
Title, license and insure guns. If your gun gets stolen - report it. If it gets sold - you have a title transfer. Pretty simple either way.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Nov 29, 2015 - 08:09am PT
congress is certainly trustworthy and insulated from influence purchasing by lobby/munny on behalf of, oh I dunno, the NRA, eh Lillegard?
Norton

Social climber
Nov 29, 2015 - 08:15am PT
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Nov 29, 2015 - 08:17am PT
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2015 - 08:22am PT
Great, let's keep it declining for everyone's sake.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 29, 2015 - 08:23am PT
Shoot up a school bus and it never makes the national wires.

http://www.witn.com/home/headlines/Trio-charged-with-shooting-at-vehicles-including-school-activity-bus-347704781.html?device=phone&c=y
WBraun

climber
Nov 29, 2015 - 08:23am PT
Stooopid Americans arguing again ......

rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Nov 29, 2015 - 08:31am PT
Minority on minority , gangland murders are just planned parenthood post partum. Madam Sanger's eugenics in practice. Of course, you anti population, anti humanists support such ongoing efforts. In this respect, Dear is both your hero and villain.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2015 - 08:33am PT
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Nov 29, 2015 - 08:53am PT

The GOP Ignores the Bigger Terror Threat—from the Right

They slam Obama because he won’t say “radical Islam.” But why won’t the Republicans acknowledge radical white terrorists?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/11/29/the-gop-ignores-the-bigger-terror-threat-from-the-right.html

c wilmot

climber
Nov 29, 2015 - 09:53am PT
Sadly your dismissal of the problem in the black community could very well mean you would find a gun fi you went looking. A guy killed 3 people in separate incidents recently and wounded another critically in CA. All were ambushed with guns.
Why did this not make national news? The suspect was black and it happens all the time

http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Triple-murder-suspect-believed-dead-in-Oakland-6645988.php
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 29, 2015 - 10:16am PT
Heroin isn't available legally. Guns are.

Totally ignorant post as usual.


Most of the over 10,000 shootings thus far this year in the poverty gangland inner city communities of Miami, Chicago, Detroit, New Orleans, NYC, Milwaukee, LA etc were done so with "illegal" guns. Most of which are this totally illegal fully auto assault "gun" known as the "Chopper"...


Norton

Social climber
Nov 29, 2015 - 10:21am PT
Why did this not make national news? The suspect was black and it happens all the time

for the same reason that the national news does not bother reporting every time
a white person uses a gun and kills other whites or blacks

350 million people here in the US, the press picks what to cover and what not to
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 29, 2015 - 10:27am PT
the press picks what to cover and what not to ...

The execution of a nine year old innocent boy in an alley by a gang member does not fit the agenda of todays avg liberal national press. Neither does the brutal rape and then execution of a pregnant pastors wife in the safety of her very own living room. Both done with totally "illegal" guns by individuals with long violent criminal rap sheets, btw.

Go figure Norton.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 29, 2015 - 10:32am PT
The media is conservative.



Amanda Blackburn's murder was well covered.

Really? Then why didn't the POTUS make a statement regarding that horrific incident? Nor all the other hundreds of similar incidents that have occurred this year alone?

The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 29, 2015 - 10:35am PT
And end up consistently behaving in a wee wee fairy tale la la land manner like you and Philo... No thanks.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Nov 29, 2015 - 12:54pm PT
Chief: ST's uncle, still drunk and ranting from Thanksgiving.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2015 - 01:14pm PT
The NRA Is Getting Its Ass Kicked And Here’s The Proof
CLIFF SCHECTER11.28.1511:00 PM ET
The National Rifle Association is getting its clocked cleaned.

I know, you need to see that again. So to repeat, and in layman terms: The NRA has been losing a lot lately.

The conventional wisdom is that even with an average of one school shooting per week since Sandy Hook, further common-sense gun regulation is a political non-starter, because of the NRA’s undue influence over our elected officials.


You’re likely familiar with this generic strain of blather, most recently regurgitated to pretend the NRA had a banner election night in Virginia this year.

Democrats, running proudly in support of gun safety, won one state senate race right in the NRA’s backyard. Democrats also picked up a state house seat and barely lost one state senate seat with a strong GOP lean.

For a more accurate view of just how much the NRA’s been losing the past few years, we needn’t look too far afield. The most sweeping gun-violence prevention laws in the country passed in 2014 via citizen ballot initiative, I-594, in Washington State. The initiative got 60 percent of the vote, in an off year when right-wing trolls put a poison pill measure on the ballot to fool people into voting against it—and failed.

In Oregon, the government did its job of protecting citizens over the infinitely expanding greed of Wayne LaPierre and his little band of merry, executive-suite misanthropes.
In Oregon, the government did its job of protecting citizens over the infinitely expanding greed of Wayne LaPierre and his little band of merry, executive-suite misanthropes who run the NRA. They passed a background-check bill against the NRA’s wishes. Meanwhile, some North Carolina lawmakers who didn’t think enough of their constituents were being rendered dead were stopped in their tracks this past July when they tried to eliminate background checks on handgun purchases. The same thing happened in Colorado and Iowa.

Don’t take it from me, though. Listen to the NRA, whose former president called their own efforts in the states this year a “huge train wreck” in an internal memo. The gun nuts lost in 15 of 16 states where they tried to put guns on campus (no doubt to add bullet holes to the general atmosphere of co-ed merriment), including Oklahoma, Arkansas, Indiana, Georgia, South Dakota, Tennessee, South Carolina and Wyoming—all deep red states.

In the one state where they succeeded (although with a watered-down version of their bill), Texas, there have been protests and a number of professors have quit. Also, ironically, they’ve managed to create a whole new grassroots, gun-safety force among students who plan to carry colorful dildos around campus in protest. You see, carrying dildos out in public is illegal in Texas, concealed weapons that can kill now is not. Tells you all you need to know about the gerontocratic, melanin-challenged, right-wing men who are the base of support for both laws and choosing “leaders” in GOP primaries.


Meanwhile, the NRA tried to eliminate any training or permit requirements for concealed carry in West Virginia, Missouri, Utah, and Montana. The results? No, no, no and no. Again, these are not blue states. The same exact scenario played out with the NRA’s efforts to force guns into K-12 schools, based on their made up claim that “gun free zones” attract those who want to do us harm—as if the mentally ill are conducting a multivariate data analysis while planning an murderous spree.

What has happened in the affirmative? In response to the terrible Isla Vista massacre in 2014, California enacted a “gun violence restraining order” to allow close family and law enforcement to temporarily confiscate firearms if someone proves to be a threat to themselves and others.

In Milwaukee, police officers Bryan Norberg and Graham Kunisch, both shot in the face in the line of duty, won a case against known provider of guns to anyone asking, Badger Guns, for $6 million:


The officers, Norberg and Kunisch, alleged Julius Burton obtained the gun in June 2009 through a “straw buy” at Badger Guns.

The officers say the shop personnel were negligent because it was obvious another man actually bought the gun for Burton, who was too young to legally make the purchase, the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel reported.

In fact, upon perusing its history, it becomes hard to doubt that Badger Guns would’ve hesitated to sell guns to Ultron if he had ambled on in to fulfill his need for heavy weaponry. The case is being appealed, but it may create precedent. That would be a very big deal.

Finally, as guns in the wrong hands pose such an existential threat to women suffering abuse at the hands of their husbands, six states, including Alabama and South Carolina, passed bills to make it harder for these abusers to gain access to firearms. Michigan even saw its Republican governor veto a bill to make it easier for abusers to get guns.

Next year it will be Nevada and Maine’s turns to pass universal background checks via ballot initiative. Like everywhere else, this reform is incredibly popular in those states. Washington State looks likely to once again take on the NRA directly, in banning the sale of ivory and other animal trophies. California has a ballot measure set to go in 2016 that would, among other things, make people report lost or stolen guns (I know, common sense if you’re not living in a fortified bunker with buckets of your own urine) and conduct background checks for ammunition purchases. It is the No. 1 priority of Gavin Newsom, the current lieutenant governor and likely gubernatorial candidate for 2018.

You see, the problem is that as all this is taking place, with cultural transformation already evident in People magazine’s now taking on this issue and sports teams’ wearing orange, in symbolic solidarity with gun-violence survivors, too many innocent people are still dying. And when it is local, or a massacre nationally, you will see it on your local or national news, sometimes on a loop. This makes it hard to accept that things are changing. But they are.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 29, 2015 - 02:11pm PT
you want the President to say something about each and every one or would you prefer he run the country???...

Sure does find plenty of time to do so when it perfectly fits HIS side of the aisles agenda.


Go figure....
snowhazed

Trad climber
Oaksterdam, CA
Nov 29, 2015 - 02:17pm PT
Has anyone anywhere labeled this properly?

Religious Terrorism
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2015 - 02:24pm PT
Did your Boi Bush make a nationally televised event for every death of every serviceman and servicewoman? Or did he just photo-op his incompetence on rubble heaps in New York and aircraft carriers outside of San Diego?

What's your ignorant and biased point?

What happened to you man? Was it military training, drugs and PTSD?
There must have been a time in the distant past when you were a happy go lucky and pleasant to interact with person who's moral compass wasn't hopelessly skewed.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Nov 29, 2015 - 02:49pm PT
Well, Hinkley was represented by Vincent Fuller, who ran circles around the prosecution team with the Jody Foster defense. Amazing what money can do. That case changed how the insanity defense can be used in criminal. Cases.

They have been trying to prove Hinkley isn't crazy ever since. If the victim were anyone but the POTUS, he'd be Scot free.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 29, 2015 - 03:06pm PT
Well, maybe not Scott free, but in a nut house instead of a prison.

Probably easier on him where he is.

Non white/non schizoids don't garner the same kind of attention. Doesn't fit the narrative.

They shot up a school bus and it never made anything but local coverage.

http://www.witn.com/home/headlines/Trio-charged-with-shooting-at-vehicles-including-school-activity-bus-347704781.html?device=phone&c=y
monolith

climber
state of being
Nov 29, 2015 - 03:39pm PT
NRA wants those who are involuntary committed to a psychiatric hospital to be able to buy a gun as soon as they are released.

http://www.thetrace.org/2015/08/mental-health-cornyn-bill-involuntary-commitment/
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 29, 2015 - 03:43pm PT
NRA wants those who are involuntary committed to a psychiatric hospital to be able to buy a gun as soon as they are released.

And they roast live kittens on spits at all of their meetings!

monolith

climber
state of being
Nov 29, 2015 - 03:48pm PT
Do you dispute the article, TGT?

Right now you have to petition the court to get back your gun rights if you have been involuntarily committed.

But if the NRA backed bill passes, you are eligible to buy guns the moment you are released from the hospital.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Nov 29, 2015 - 03:50pm PT
http://dailycurrant.com/2015/08/31/trump-kills-kitten-on-live-television-expands-lead-3/
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Nov 29, 2015 - 03:57pm PT
Well, maybe not Scott free, but in a nut house instead of a prison.

He lives on a golf course in a gated community with his grandmother.

The same gated community my brother lives in, in fact.


http://dailycaller.com/2015/04/20/ronald-reagan-shooter-john-hinckley-lives-on-golf-course-in-posh-gated-community/
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 29, 2015 - 04:02pm PT
Did you bother to read the entire article including the last paragraph?
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Nov 29, 2015 - 04:10pm PT
You mean where the secret service keeps track of him. "from time to time"?

I bet they keep track of you from time to time.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 29, 2015 - 04:23pm PT
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2015 - 04:26pm PT
It probably doesn't hurt that the Hinkley family were friends of the Reagans and big contributors to GOP campaigns.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Nov 29, 2015 - 05:07pm PT
The Chief posted
Most of the over 10,000 shootings thus far this year in the poverty gangland inner city communities of Miami, Chicago, Detroit, New Orleans, NYC, Milwaukee, LA etc were done so with "illegal" guns. Most of which are this totally illegal fully auto assault "gun" known as the "Chopper"...

That's really interesting information, Chief. Got a source for that?
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Nov 29, 2015 - 05:13pm PT
In this country the VP can shoot you and get off Scot free.

crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Nov 29, 2015 - 05:32pm PT
El Jefe...read. Learn. Your hate speech has consequences.

“We can’t let it become normal,” Mr. Obama said in a statement. “If we truly care about this — if we’re going to offer up our thoughts and prayers again, for God knows how many times, with a truly clean conscience — then we have to do something about the easy accessibility of weapons of war on our streets to people who have no business wielding them. Period. Enough is enough.”
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 29, 2015 - 05:37pm PT
And they roast live kittens on spits at all of their meetings!

Absolutely, I can testify to that, but they're all communist kittens so it's ok.
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Nov 29, 2015 - 05:43pm PT
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2015 - 09:20pm PT
So one of the C Springs dead was a Iraq war vet.
Really a sad, sad event.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 29, 2015 - 09:22pm PT
You have to love the sheer audacity of the right - Ted Cruz now claims the shooter is a transgender leftist...
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2015 - 09:23pm PT
For real healyje?
That is whacky.
Trying to beat tRump to the punch?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 29, 2015 - 09:34pm PT
Cruz responded: "Well, it's also reported that he was registered as an independent and as a woman and a transgendered leftist activist, if that's what he is."
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Nov 29, 2015 - 10:09pm PT
I had no idea leftist activists registered.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2015 - 09:37am PT
So the angry white Christian man from Hateradiostan, our latest Domestic Terrorist - who we at least know wasn't looking for anymore baby body parts - was carriing duffle bags, as in more than one, of guns into the Planned Parrenthood offices. They are investigating how such a charming man with such obvious social skills attained this large collection of leathality.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Dec 1, 2015 - 09:47am PT
He was biologically male, but apparently self-identified as female (although I have to admit I'm wondering how the full, scruffy beard fits into that picture). Please keep that in mind when constructing your psychological profile.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2015 - 09:52am PT
So you take issue with my use of the word "man"?
You're OK with he/she being called a white Christian terrorist but the referrence to "man" sets you off with a GOP/FOX deflection.

Where does your news come from?
I think you pay way to much attention to Ted Cruz.


Maybe he/she should plead insanity and claim he/she was just channeling his/hers inner Carly Fiorina.


blahblah is right.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 1, 2015 - 12:27pm PT
Nothing in the NYT profile about him being transgender: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/02/us/robert-dear-planned-parenthood-shooting.html



Liberal media claiming Ted Cruz said it: http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2015/11/29/3726311/ted-cruz-planned-parenthood-shooting-transgendered/


Conservative media claiming it's a liberal smear against Cruz: http://www.redstate.com/2015/11/30/media-smear-ted-cruz/
c wilmot

climber
Dec 1, 2015 - 12:33pm PT
The "no more body parts" is from an unnamed source speaking on a condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to release any info...


Meaning...it could very well not be true
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Dec 1, 2015 - 12:40pm PT
I don't always shoot up Planned Parenthoods.

But when I do it's because I am a transgender liberal diehard.

Quoth ted cruz
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Dec 1, 2015 - 12:50pm PT
OK the transgender thing may be a bit of a red herring.
But Philo should either stop calling him a Christian or admit that Obama is lying when he says that ISIS (and similar) terrorists are not following Islam.
Can't have it both ways.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 1, 2015 - 01:04pm PT

Why would he have a cross on his Trailer then

No one said he is Following Christianity, just like No one said that Islamic Terrorists are following the Koran

We all said that right wing religious zealots are the terrorists
it doesn't matter what the f-ing religion is
they think that they are doing GOD's work

and he doesn't consider himself a women
The right wing propagandists use the fact that he checked the wrong box on his voter registration or something.
He's just a right wing idiot and can't even check off the right f-ing Box

The right wing leaders just lie about this so they can distance themselves from their Creation, a loon with guns.

Another typical right wing lie campaign when they catch them with their hands in the cookie jar.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Dec 1, 2015 - 01:10pm PT
Why would he have a cross on his Trailer then

I don't know, why do ISIS terrorists claim to be motivated solely by the Koran when murdering people, and they quote verses from the Koran to justify their actions.
Why does President Obama deny that they are following Muslim teachings?

Edit--Philo described him as a Christian.
Philo should either retract that OR admit Obama is lying. I don't really care which, but it has to be one or the other, unless Philo wants to admit (and his silence is tantamount to an admission) to hypocrisy.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 1, 2015 - 01:14pm PT
If you would ask, the shooter would say he's good Christian, he is doing God's work
other Good Christians would disagree

same thing with Islamics

do you understand?
Obama isn't lying, your logic is just flawed
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 1, 2015 - 01:35pm PT
*We* Don’t Make Heroes Out of Violent Psychopaths

A violent psychopath went on a shooting spree near a Planned Parenthood butcher shop over Thanksgiving weekend.

He will not become a martyr and symbol of any movement, like violent thug Michael Brown.

No one on the right will wear a T-shirt or wave a banner emblazoned with his image, like mass-murdering communist icon Che Guevara.

He will not be given a teaching position at the University of Illinois and become a celebrated community organizer like unrepentant left-wing terrorist Bill Ayers.

He will not be given a job as a correspondent for taxpayer-funded NPR, become a cause celebre among the Hollywood left, and given honorary degrees like left-wing cop-killer Mumia Abu Jamal.

The Right does not make violent sociopaths into heroes.

The Left does.

You will also not see anyone on the left go out of their way to claim that he does not represent the peaceful majority of people who oppose abortion-for-convenience.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 1, 2015 - 01:48pm PT
Great post TGT

Pure lies fabricated by some right wing extremists (possible terrorists)
keep up the great work!

Ya, those viscous left wingers calling out your BS right wing misinformation (propaganda) must be so hurtful

Peace and love

Can you prove that Michael Brown was a Left wing thug?
Can you prove anything you copy and paste?

No, you can't, it's pure fiction that you use to shift the blame.
Gary

Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
Dec 1, 2015 - 02:11pm PT
*We* Don’t Make Heroes Out of Violent Psychopaths

A violent psychopath went on a shooting spree near a Planned Parenthood butcher shop over Thanksgiving weekend.

Jeebus.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2015 - 03:34pm PT
Why dont you Retract your head from your Ass!

Edit--Philo described him as a Christian.
Philo should either retract that OR admit Obama is lying. I don't really care which, but it has to be one or the other, unless Philo wants to admit (and his silence is tantamount to an admission) to hypocrisy.

First my silence indicates I had other things to do. Second He/She is a self avowed Christian according to friends, neighbors and an ex-spouse. It has nothing to do with Obama and everything to do with what Craig "Dr F" Fry said. It doesn't matter what religion is claimed it is the rightwing ideology gone extreme that is to be held accountable.
Binks

climber
Uranus
Dec 1, 2015 - 07:01pm PT
Why is is it that all these dumb f*#ks with guns don't realize that only utter COWARDS shoot or otherwise harm unarmed people.

The have poop for brains, and no amount of firepower will change that.
Gary

Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
Dec 1, 2015 - 07:05pm PT
Why is is it that all these dumb f*#ks with guns don't realize that only utter COWARDS shoot or otherwise harm unarmed people.

For the same reason those ISIL f*#kheads attack kids at a concert rather than going after an army barracks.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 1, 2015 - 07:19pm PT
A number of people who knew Mr. Dear said he was a staunch abortion opponent. Ms. Micheau, 60, said in a brief interview Tuesday that late in her marriage to Mr. Dear, he told her that he had put glue in the locks of a Planned Parenthood location in Charleston.

Prior history of direct action makes him undeniably one of theirs...


“Turn to JESUS or burn in hell,” he wrote on one site on Oct. 7, 2005. “WAKE UP SINNERS U CANT SAVE YOURSELF U WILL DIE AN WORMS SHALL EAT YOUR FLESH, NOW YOUR SOUL IS GOING SOMEWHERE.”

He would have fit right in here at ST.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 1, 2015 - 07:38pm PT
Yeah we know. It's all the fault of shrub and the Koch bros.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 1, 2015 - 07:43pm PT
So a political party is responsible for a catastrophic mental illness like schizophrenia?

Only the equally mentally ill could jump to that conclusion.


But then they elevate mass murderers to sainthood.

Jorroh

climber
Dec 1, 2015 - 07:52pm PT
"So a political party is responsible for a catastrophic mental illness like schizophrenia"

Cool TGT has given his diagnosis....Schizophrenia it is then.
Who could argue with that.
PAUL SOUZA

Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
Dec 1, 2015 - 07:58pm PT
Funny how people can diagnose other people with mental disorders over the internet while having no idea what they are talking about....
Jorroh

climber
Dec 1, 2015 - 08:03pm PT
We're lucky to have someone as expert as TGT!

Pure coincidence that he needs the shooter to be a schizophrenic for his barely-connected-to-reality narrative.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 1, 2015 - 08:23pm PT
The Republican Party bears some moral responsibility for these murders, plain and simple.

That's funny.

Like all Muslims bear some responsibility for their murderous brethren?

Like blacks bear some responsibility for the bulk of crime in Urban areas?

I bet there are some good moral people who consider themselves "Republicans" just like there are good moral people who consider themselves "Democrats". Don't you think so?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 1, 2015 - 08:37pm PT
When all is said and done, it is highly likely that the gunman will be diagnosed as a schizophrenic.

And, if that turns out to be the case, then folks on the right are still responsible because their constant drumbeat of hysterical and incendiary rhetoric along with distortions of reality designed - let me repeat, DESIGNED - to provoke indignation, outrage and to radicalize. And that has been explicit political strategy for decades now. And that's simply impossible to do without sweeping up a certain percentage of borderline personalities who will act on your rhetoric.

He and his actions can definitely be laid at their feet and their chosen speech has directly cost us a mother of two, a pastor and an Iraq vet, but then they know that upfront and that's just the cost of doing business to the Reeds, Atwaters, Roves, and Wadhams of the gop.
Jorroh

climber
Dec 1, 2015 - 08:38pm PT
Bit of a shaky analogy there Fear.

Almost the entire republican establishment has been blabbing about planned parenthood for months, all sorts of BS, presidential candidates trying to out-outrage each other over phony videos, even threatening to shut down the government over its funding F.F.S.

Pure demagoguery in its worst form.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Dec 1, 2015 - 08:51pm PT
@ Healyje. Yep, when you incite the inmates you are responsible for the results. Right wingers have been inciting their buds for years to kill abortion doctors. When it works they deny all responsibility for the result. A nice sort of cognitive dissonance if you want to avoid all responsibility but still get the result you want.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Dec 1, 2015 - 09:13pm PT
There's a difference between pointing out problems and inciting action. Let's get real here; there have been persons who have demonized doctors at abortion clinics and called for their death. When the rabble they incite do as they bid they are certainly responsible. Pointing out injustice is not incitement to commit crimes.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Dec 1, 2015 - 09:18pm PT
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2015 - 10:18pm PT
The LEBification of another thread.

Edited to add. That didn't take long.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 2, 2015 - 08:01am PT
Werner some have seen through these charades from their beginnings.
But voicing opposition to the myth d'jour tends to get one pilloried by those who will later claim they "knew it all along" when the truth oozes out. WMDs come to mind.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 2, 2015 - 08:07am PT
They are getting so rich of the sale of baby parts, that they are buying Lamborghinis!!!!

A new undercover video shows a top Planned Parenthood official discussing “less crunchy” techniques to get “whole specimens” and haggling over the price of fetus tissue sales because she wants “a Lamborghini.”
Fox News

Carly says "The liberals are harvesting Live Baby Brains"

when you demonize a group with lies
then when some right winger wacko with legal guns shoots it up, you are responsible for provoking the murders

It's the lies that matter, lies that are used as propaganda.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 2, 2015 - 08:26am PT
Retract this blahblah.


For Robert Dear, Religion and Rage Before Planned Parenthood Attack
By RICHARD FAUSSET
DEC. 1, 2015

CHARLESTON, S.C. — The man she had married professed to be deeply religious. But after more than seven years with Robert L. Dear Jr., Barbara Micheau had come to see life with him as a kind of hell on earth.

By January 1993, she had had enough. In a sworn affidavit as part of her divorce case, Ms. Micheau described Mr. Dear as a serial philanderer and a problem gambler, a man who kicked her, beat her head against the floor and fathered two children with other women while they were together. He found excuses for his transgressions, she said, in his idiosyncratic views on Christian eschatology and the nature of salvation.

“He claims to be a Christian and is extremely evangelistic, but does not follow the Bible in his actions,” Ms. Micheau said in the court document. “He says that as long as he believes he will be saved, he can do whatever he pleases. He is obsessed with the world coming to an end.”

Robert L. Dear Jr., right, appeared in court via live video with his public defender, Dan King, on Monday in Colorado Springs.Suspect in Planned Parenthood Attack, Hears Murder ChargeNOV. 30, 2015
A man was taken into custody outside a clinic in Colorado Springs on Friday. A gun battle there raged for more than five hours.3 Are Dead in Colorado Springs Shootout at Planned Parenthood CenterNOV. 27, 2015
Robert L. Dear Jr., the suspect in the shooting at a Planned Parenthood clinic in Colorado Springs, made this R.V. his home in tiny Hartsel, Colo.Robert Dear, Suspect in Colorado Killings, ‘Preferred to Be Left Alone’NOV. 28, 2015
On Friday, according to officials, Mr. Dear entered a Planned Parenthood clinic in Colorado Springs, killing three people and wounding nine others with a semiautomatic rifle. The attack, which ended with his surrender to the police after a harrowing nationally televised standoff in the snow-dusted Western city, was a brutally violent and very public chapter in a life story whose details are not fully known.

The musty and weathered trailer in Swannanoa, N.C., from which Mr. Dear ran a business called S Prints Mountain Art Prints. Credit Michael Biesecker/Associated Press
But in court documents and interviews with people who knew Mr. Dear well, a picture emerges of an angry and occasionally violent man who seemed deeply disturbed and deeply contradictory: He was a man of religious conviction who sinned openly, a man who craved both extreme solitude and near-constant female company, a man who successfully wooed women but, some of them say, also abused them. He frequented marijuana websites, then argued with other posters, often through heated religious screeds.

“Turn to JESUS or burn in hell,” he wrote on one site on Oct. 7, 2005. “WAKE UP SINNERS U CANT SAVE YOURSELF U WILL DIE AN WORMS SHALL EAT YOUR FLESH, NOW YOUR SOUL IS GOING SOMEWHERE.”

A number of people who knew Mr. Dear said he was a staunch abortion opponent. Ms. Micheau, 60, said in a brief interview Tuesday that late in her marriage to Mr. Dear, he told her that he had put glue in the locks of a Planned Parenthood location in Charleston.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Dec 2, 2015 - 08:54am PT
Retract this blahblah.

Either you're being willfully dense, or you just don't seem to be up to getting it. Either way, I'll try one more time:
Our fearless Obama consistently denies that ISIS are in fact Muslim, notwithstanding that not only do they claim to be strictly following Islamic teachings, but also there is Koranic support for their conduct. (Read the highly regarded Atlantic article http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/);
If you accept Obama's reasoning (which appears to be that "most" Muslims don't agree with all ISIS's conduct, although obviously many support them all or at least in part), you should deny that the C. Springs shooter is a Christian.
Or you should admit that Obama is a liar. (Although in fairness to Obama, his lying is "JV" compared to Hillary's.)
Or you can continue to ignore your own and Obama's hypocrisy--that's what I'm betting on!
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 2, 2015 - 09:00am PT
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 2, 2015 - 09:02am PT
Obama calls them Radical Religious Extremists all the time

The only problem is that you want him to call them something he won't call them because it would enflame the situation with normal Muslims

Just like He won't call out PP shooter a Christian Extremist
it would enflame the rest of the Christian right wing terrorists and normal Christians

Why does it matter what he calls them, it's completely juvenile to push such a divisive argument about what words he uses

No one is lying, it's just another smear campaign based on Obama derangement

rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 2, 2015 - 09:05am PT
Show us the transcript of Obama using Islamic in conjunction with extremist. Put up or shut up Craig.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 2, 2015 - 09:05am PT
No he says they are not acting in the true heart of Islam. They are not truly Muslims. Just like the Westburrough Babitist ASSes and this jackwad Dear, you can claim any religion you want but your actions speak louder than your words.
Your issue is ODS (Obama Derangement Syndrome) get over it.




Dec 2, 2015 - 09:05am PT
Show us the transcript of Obama using Islamic in conjunction with extremist. Put up or shut up Craig
To what end Rick? What would that do except give FOX newsheads a drippy chubby?
Like the inane insistance that Canidates wear a US flag pin. What does that supposedly prove? Except that as Werner says "Americans are stupid" and easilly mollified by shiny meaningless shit!.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 2, 2015 - 09:12am PT
Au contraire...I consider members of the Westboro Baptist Church to be true christians. Their behavior resonates nicely with many Old Testament teachings.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 2, 2015 - 09:14am PT
Unfortunately Jim that is a very valid point.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 2, 2015 - 09:18am PT
Face the facts lads. Neither Muslims, Christians, or atheists hold the patent on extremism. Larger than life characters pushing radical ideologies equals big death. This has been a near constant condition throughout history. Dear and the gangbangers of the inner city are just a useless side show as much bigger menaces rear their ugly heads.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 2, 2015 - 09:20am PT
No one said they did
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Dec 2, 2015 - 09:42am PT
Au contraire...I consider members of the Westboro Baptist Church to be true christians. Their behavior resonates nicely with many Old Testament teachings.

Interesting argument--let's see if I follow you.
There are people you regard as "true christians."
And the test of "true christians" is whether "their behavior resonates nicely with many Old Testament teachings."
I think I'm following you.
But one thing I'm not sure about--where does the word "christian" come from? Would that have anything to do with a "true christian"?
Is there a term for people who follow the Old Testament and not the New Testament? Is that term "true Christian"?
Are there some written texts that may give me more insight into the beliefs of "true christians"? Maybe the Old Testament?

Thanks for helping me understand this.



fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 2, 2015 - 10:18am PT
So someone who murders innocent people.....

Remind me again why we should care what imaginary friend(s) they claim to have? What political parties they belong to? What books they read? What color they are? What clothes they wear? What method they choose?

Terminate the problem and move on....
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Dec 2, 2015 - 10:50am PT
Neither Muslims, Christians, or atheists hold the patent on extremism.

True, But when it comes to killing in the name of their God, Muslims are the worst offenders. By a long shot.

How many Christians and Sunnis have been killed by ISIS for not renouncing their faiths?
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Dec 2, 2015 - 10:56am PT
^^^^I thought ISIS are sunni and that they don't like shia

edit; oop, got distracted ....gotta work

rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:21am PT
I believe Edward T, that Stalin and Mao still hold the record for most destruction of humanity over the last 100 years. They both allowed no religion but worship of the state. Atheism wins by a wide margin.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:31am PT
Faith.....believing something for no good reason. Pretty hard to argue against someone who has it...you certainly can't you reason.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:34am PT
Edward posted
True, But when it comes to killing in the name of their God, Muslims are the worst offenders*. By a long shot.

*citation needed
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:37am PT
The Austrian chap with the little mustache was confirmed Catholic in 1904.

The official religion he advocated in the thirties was called "Positive Christianity" and called Christianity the foundation of German Morality.
Norton

Social climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:38am PT
San Bernardino Active Shooter right now.....
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:40am PT
screidc
I thought so too.

The shia talk to god thru a cleric but the sunnis have always been the loose cannons.



So philo,

I can't make it to the SHOT show. Maybe you would like my pass so you can rant to 190,000 gun owners????

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:47am PT
Twenty victims reported in San Berdoo....the least the NRA could do is provide body bags, they certainly have the coin.
Gary

Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
Dec 2, 2015 - 12:22pm PT
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-up-to-20-shot-in-san-bernardino-active-shooter-sought-20151202-story.html
p to 20 people were shot Wednesday at a social services office in San Bernardino, and officials said they were looking for one or more "active shooters."

The San Bernardino Fire Department said the shooting took place on the 1300 block of Waterman Avenue, near Orange Show Road.

Sgt. Vicki Cervantes, a spokeswoman for the San Bernardino Police Department, told reporters at the scene up to three shooters were reported inside the Inland Regional Center. Officers have not secured the building and going door-to-door.

The suspects, she said, are heavily armed and were possibly wearing body armor.

“It’s a very active scene,” Cervantes said. “It’s very fluid.”
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 2, 2015 - 12:28pm PT
This thread should be able to serve as the go-to thread for the regular active shootings that define America these days.

You know...kinda like the Politapocalypse thread...a centralized place for reports & discussions of what is now an apparent American pastime.
Gary

Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
Dec 2, 2015 - 12:36pm PT
I give up. The NRA wins. I'm going to start packing.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 2, 2015 - 12:37pm PT
Me, too. Canada sounds like a nice place to go.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 12:39pm PT
The only thing that can keep us safe is for America to have the largest military, the biggest jails and the highest rate of gun ownership oh wai......
Gary

Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
Dec 2, 2015 - 12:39pm PT
I was just thinking Squamish is a nice place.
Lurkingtard

climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 12:43pm PT
Canada sounds like a nice place to go.

Chill bro. Yer talkin crazy talk.


I was just thinking Squamish is a nice place.

Yeah, like 3 months out of the year.

Canada will make you crazy. I know I've dated a couple of them Canukes. Well one was French Canadian. Another level of Cray cray.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 2, 2015 - 01:12pm PT
Canada will take your gun when you cross the border, so you'll be the only guy in Canada without a gun.

A license is required to own or possess firearms. Federal government safety course required before applying for a license. To be authorized to carry a handgun or restricted long gun for a lawful occupational purpose, such as trapping or working in a wilderness area, an individual must be a Canadian resident, have a firearms licence with restricted privileges and obtain an Authorization to Transport (ATT) permit from the CFO.[10] Semi automatic firearms have size restricted magazines (rimfire rifles excluded) Automatic firearms not permitted.
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Dec 2, 2015 - 01:14pm PT

I heard on news reports that there may be as many as a dozen fatalities
in the San Bernadino shootings.

And we need more guns????
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 2, 2015 - 01:15pm PT
Chief should be here any minute to explain to us why we all need more guns.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 2, 2015 - 01:47pm PT
WTF?
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 2, 2015 - 01:47pm PT
WTF?
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 2, 2015 - 01:48pm PT
WTF?
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 2, 2015 - 01:48pm PT
WTF?
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 2, 2015 - 01:48pm PT
WTF?
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 2, 2015 - 01:49pm PT
WTF?
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 2, 2015 - 02:04pm PT
Perhaps the adults can continue the disscussion now.
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Dec 2, 2015 - 02:05pm PT
Here, hold this snake Randisi found while I check for the muslims in a black SUV...



edit; criminey...............
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 2, 2015 - 02:08pm PT
If you're not homeless, on parole, a welfare mother, an illegal alien, or a government employee, STAY THE F*#K OUT OF SAN BERNARDINO.
There's nothing for you there.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Dec 2, 2015 - 02:09pm PT
Probably more Fundamental Radical Christian Extremists AKA Christian Terrorists.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 2, 2015 - 02:10pm PT
The good ole US of Armory....5% of the world's population but proudly checking in with 31% of the mass shootings. American exceptionalism at it's best!
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 2, 2015 - 02:11pm PT

shooting: Manhunt for three suspects after at least 12 people killed at centre for disabled in California - live Officials report 20 victims at a shooting in California with police hunting between three suspects: follow latest updates here

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 2, 2015 - 02:14pm PT
San Bernardino averages one murder a week - that's more than San Francisco and Seattle both put together, even though San Bernardino's population is 1/3 that of Seattle and 1/4 that of San Francisco.

There's no reason to get off the freeway in San Bernardino, unless you're seriously bored.



10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired Climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 02:41pm PT
We live in a fuked up world people.

It's full of sick people with political, religious, or societal agendas that what to make their point with weapons.

The media milking it for all it's worth,
spinning it to fit their agendas does not help.

+1
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired Climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 02:49pm PT
I give up. The NRA wins. I'm going to start packing.

I hear you Gary.

Fox reporting shooters were Muslims!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

of course they would.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 2, 2015 - 02:51pm PT
Cheefy, bay-bee....where are you....?

We know you're lurking out there, sweating bullets (ha!) as you resist the urge to take over this gun thread again in the midst of a(nother) mass shooting...

How long before he gives in....any bets?
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 2, 2015 - 02:52pm PT
The media milking it for all it's worth,

As is the POTUS. Within 18 minutes of the news breaking, he made a public statement that started off with the following statement without even knowimg wtf has happened....


"The one thing we do know is that we have a pattern now of mass shootings in this country that has no parallel anywhere else in world,"

Nobody knows who or what or why. What they do know is these doods were all masked, wearing vests, in some kind of "military uniforms" and got away lickity split and no one has any clue as to where they may be or who they are.


Apparently there was a "Holiday" function for County Employess going on in the Conference room where this well planned "hit" took place.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 03:03pm PT
The only answer to this problem is to take away guns from those who lawfully own/carry them, and are responsible gun owners.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired Climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 03:07pm PT
It's not ISIS. The perps drove a black suv. ISIS only drives Toyotas.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 2, 2015 - 03:08pm PT
I got ten bucks says these doods are Professional Cartel Hitmen and this was a straight up hit job on some SB County employee/s and/or witness/s in some high profile local drug or murder case.

I got another ten bucks says these dooods are racing down I-15 in separate vehicles back to Mexico and will never be heard of again.

Any takers?

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 2, 2015 - 03:10pm PT
Damn!

Damn Damn Damn!

Predictable as the sun.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 2, 2015 - 03:11pm PT
Does that mean "Yes" apogee? You'll take my bet? What do ya got to lose. Hell, I lose and I'll paypal $20.00.

I win, you, Philo, Fry, Crankstar, you all stfu for a month and cease posting on any politard thread.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 2, 2015 - 03:14pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 2, 2015 - 03:20pm PT
You would ZACH with your straight up butthurt whining completely useless postings. Who else.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 2, 2015 - 03:23pm PT
Well Ten bucks is off the bet. SBSD just shot the shet outta of a Cadilac Escalade.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 2, 2015 - 03:40pm PT
Well Ten bucks is off the bet. SBSD just shot the shet outta of a Cadilac Escalade.

Let's hope it wasn't a soccer mom and some kids...
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Dec 2, 2015 - 03:55pm PT
it wasn't

http://www.msnbc.com/shift/watch/live-report-on-shootings-in-california-578073667684
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 2, 2015 - 03:55pm PT
"They have pulled over a Blk SUV, surrounded it and shot it up."


Shit! I lived on that block 30 years ago. Oakieville is what the neighborhood's called.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 2, 2015 - 03:59pm PT
All bets off. Cartel Hitmen would not have been caught/terminated in the area of the hit.


Out!
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 2, 2015 - 04:12pm PT
My neighbor just called. "Have you been watching this sh#t?" he said. "That's going to kill property values in San Bernardino"
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Dec 2, 2015 - 04:55pm PT
Low class Fu%k ups. White guys

Most likely revenge shooting.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 2, 2015 - 05:45pm PT
"The media is covering it because it's big news."

The media is doing a piss-poor job.

I've been watching TV News for a couple hours, and if the talking heads don't have something to read that someone else wrote for them, they can't form a coherent thought. People whose first language is English, whose job is communication, can't speak in complete sentences when it matters. People like Colleen Williams, who's been doing this job for thirty f*#king years that I know of, can't put two words of her own choosing together in a way that makes any sense.

They confuse east with west, even though anyone watching the picture can tell east from west just by checking the f*#king shadows.

Every gun is a reported "long" rifle. What? Like a Kentucky Rifle? Or a K-98 Mauser? When the rifles used were probably of the shorter variety, like carbines. One person said "long" and all the TV parrots repeat it without thinking.

They find some official who can answer questions, but for some reason, they can't mike-up the person ASKING the questions. So you get something like this:

Q: "blahblahblahblah, blahblah, blah?"
A: "Yes"
Q: "blahblahblahblah, blahblah, blah?"
A: "Not at this time"
Q: "blahblahblahblah, blahblah, blah?"
A: "No"
Q: "blahblahblahblah, blahblah, blah?"
A: "That's correct"

Is it THAT f*#king difficult? If it is, why televise it?
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 2, 2015 - 05:48pm PT
Exactly crankster.

The current buzz is "revenge killing".
What kind of revenge is so extreme that a person could talk others into an all out armed assault on a center for the developementally dissabled? Now they have said on the news that the center does rent out facility space like the conferrence room to groups and events.
SO maybe there was a revenge target there. Given the location it seems that three people in a coordinated attack with costumes, serious guns and explosives is a big mountain of revenge.

Seeing pics and vids of the shot to hell suv it's hard to believe a perp got out of that and escaped on foot witout drooling a DNA trail.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 05:59pm PT
Chaz posted
Every gun is a reported "long" rifle. What? Like a Kentucky Rifle? Or a K-98 Mauser? When the rifles used were probably of the shorter variety, like carbines. One person said "long" and all the TV parrots repeat it without thinking.

Yeah, man. If only they'd break the news on what kind of gun it was, it would really crack this thing wide open. Why are you watching television news anyway? It's been this bad for 20 years.
zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 06:02pm PT
Guns didn't kill those 14 people, it was that damn SUV. Who manufactured that thing?


John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Dec 2, 2015 - 06:02pm PT
agreed, Media is retarded. The name of the guy they are, supposedly tearing the town up for, is all over the internep. They have Politically Correct, structured right on in. That kinda is telling me a lot.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 2, 2015 - 06:05pm PT
FBI showed up in force within minutes after.

At the press conference a few minutes ago they would not " rule out" terrorism. I'm sure they have the names of the two dead perps by now, and it's revealing that they are not releasing them.


zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 06:13pm PT


[Click to View YouTube Video]
SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
Dec 2, 2015 - 06:14pm PT
The SUV looks like a Ford Exploder.

Susan.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Dec 2, 2015 - 06:15pm PT
They still won't say if it was a white or black or islamo

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 2, 2015 - 06:16pm PT
This is all Obama's fault.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 2, 2015 - 06:18pm PT
They don't identify dead until relatives have been notified, so no one finds out on TV it was their Little Angel who died shooting at police.
The cops like to break that news to them themselves.
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Dec 2, 2015 - 06:23pm PT
ISIS tweets bragging about it.

https://twitter.com/Neran_Da3shya/status/672183740643352577?ref_src=twsrc^tfw
zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 06:34pm PT
I think the last time someone has "gone postal" was around 2006. Can we blame Obama for this? Maybe the motivation is just good old nostalgia.

Mad dogs and Americans. Dec. 2, 2015.

A pack of pit bulls yanked a 4-year-old Detroit boy from his mother, dragged him away and mauled him to death Wednesday, police said.

The boy died from his injuries after the attack in his neighborhood. Police killed three dogs and had a fourth pit bull in custody, Sgt. Cassandra Lewis said.

The attack occurred while the boy was walking with his mother. The dogs crawled through a gap at the bottom of a fence and pounced.

"The mother tried to fight the dogs off," Police Chief James Craig said. "What's telling in this scenario (is) the viciousness of these animals, the fact that they removed this child from the mother's grasp."

A witness, Nyasha Reid, said the mother screamed, "They got my baby."

Reid and others called 911. Neighbors yelled at the dogs and used a brick and club to try to free the boy.

"The cop had to open fire to at least get the dogs off the baby," said another witness, Yolanda Samuels.

The boy's name was not released, nor was the name of the dogs' 41-year-old owner. Police said he's cooperating.

"It's pretty much an open-and-shut case," Lewis said. "We know who the dogs belong to."
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 2, 2015 - 06:39pm PT
Now they're in Redlands - south of the freeway Redlands, where the worst crime is someone's dog crapping on your front lawn.

Six helicopters are hovering high over Center / Brookside, and one low flying in circles.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 2, 2015 - 06:44pm PT
Sayed Farook

Identified as one of the shooters by NBC. (so a salt sprinkling is in order)

Looks like holiday festivities brought to you by the death cult of the child molesting warlord.

Hope this isn't a precedent.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 2, 2015 - 06:58pm PT
It's an internal squabble within the County Health Department, apparently.

I know for a fact the S.B. Health Department has a history of hiring head cases to work as inspectors. I've gone rounds with multiple inspectors over asinine sh#t that never amounted to anything when I was tending bar. Not with Farook this guy, but enough to demonstrate a pattern.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Dec 2, 2015 - 07:07pm PT
Hannity is playing up the Middle East connection; hard to say what's going on.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Dec 2, 2015 - 07:10pm PT
Happy Birthday Farouk...
Norton

Social climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 07:11pm PT

puke
zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 07:13pm PT
That's "Syed Farook"?

If Hannity is playing up the Middle East connectin, it's time to look elsewhere.


Farook was a business taxes representative for the California State Board of Equalization, according to his LinkedIn profile. He is a 2003 graduate La Sierra High School, and most recently studied finance at California State University Fullerton until 2013.

Records show Farook bought a two bedroom Corona home in March 2014. Farouk’s social media profile shows he is married and has at least one young child. His wife did not return messages left on Wednesday.

Farook lived at a home with his wife and children in Corona, California.

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 2, 2015 - 07:16pm PT
L.A. Times is saying it's a different Farook. One that makes more sense.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-san-bernardino-shooting-live-updates-htmlstory.html

"According to public records, a Syed R. Farook worked as an environmental health specialist for San Bernardino County. It's unclear whether that is the same person connected to the attack. The shooting occurred at an event for the county's public health department."
zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 07:24pm PT
It's good to get all the misinformation recorded so that the folks involved in reporting it, can attend at UC extension class on "How to Generate Revenue by Passing Round The Bogus" for their continuing education credits.

Anybody get the religious preference of those pitbulls?


BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 2, 2015 - 07:59pm PT
Condolences to all the family and friends of those shot.

OMG, have you ever seen them send out so many cops to find two gunners?? Obliviously a stunt to get everyone to like cops again..
They should send the san bernardino cops over to Syria to flush out isis. They found these two in hours.

i only wish we could see the effort we saw today in SB used to flush out those SOB's causing Alzheimer's. BTW, 270 died today of Alzheimers. But that didn't make the news :(
zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 08:06pm PT
As it stands now (though it's sure to change), witnesses gave up Farook's name and they used this to look up his auto and property records. They then drove over to the house some hours later.

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 2, 2015 - 08:14pm PT
L.A. Times is reporting that this same Inland Regional Center is used every month by the cops for active shooter drills.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-san-bernardino-shooting-dramatic-video-shows-police-storming-inland-regional-center-20151202-story.html

14 dead, AND the shooters escape. Good thing they trained for this. Imagine how much worse it would have been if they hadn't.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 2, 2015 - 08:42pm PT
Right wing extremists, or a roving pack of delusional fundamentalist christians? Whatever, if the victims had been trained in firearms usage, and a few were packing, things like this would never go so far.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 2, 2015 - 09:00pm PT
Absolute idiocy^^^^^^. Advocating for defenseless sheep being lead to slaughter. We are at war with targeted lethal violence. Like your dear leader said "you don't bring a knife to a gunfight".
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Dec 2, 2015 - 09:02pm PT
The debate the country needs to have will be among reasonable adults. Very few on your side, per your previous illogical comments.

Bodies barely cold, riddled by bullets and you're advocating MORE guns. You're nuts.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired Climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 09:12pm PT

Right wing extremists, or a roving pack of delusional fundamentalist christians? Whatever, if the victims had been trained in firearms usage, and a few were packing, things like this would never go so far.

Umm, the perps were wearing body armor. Furthermore, it's a proven fact that untrained people are more likely to shoot themselves, or their friends, as opposed to shooting the bad guys.
Bad Climber

climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 09:12pm PT
Crankster, I get your point, but I do have one question: Assuming you had some training, if you found yourself--Buddha forbid--in a similar situation, would you want to have a gun on you? The odds are, fortunately, extraordinarily small of encountering these situations, and I'm not about to go out and get a carry permit myself, but I have a hard time arguing against those who would. I sure wish the cops on my campus packed heat.

BAd

Edit: One needs LOTS of training to get a carry permit, btw.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Dec 2, 2015 - 09:16pm PT
I once had the skillz to shoot those dipshits in the head pretty easy. have not shot much in 15 years so ..no joy.

I have no wish to carry on a day to day basis..Its a major responsibility. It is a pain in the ass. It is more of a liability than it is a strategic daily advantage.

ALL THIS IS BULLSH#T

HEART DISEASE OR CANCER IS WHAT WILL KILL YOU,,

14 people killed is less than a blip on that 1000s daily radar.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 2, 2015 - 09:20pm PT
10B, I was being a bit facetious. Of course this is looking like planned Islamic extremism. Even if it isn't though, gun violence against soft targets is escalating in this country. Perhaps it's time for compulsory weapons education, even national service, with all citizens required to be trained in and own arms like the swiss.
John M

climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 09:27pm PT
One needs LOTS of training to get a carry permit, btw.

Doesn't that vary from state to state? I could be wrong, but I believe Texas requires a 5 hour course. That doesn't seem like much training.

As for training people.. they would have to carry at all times for it to be effective.

consider

Fort Hood… 2009 12 dead.. 32 wounded
Navy Yard near D.C. 2013 13 dead 4 wounded.

Training obviously isn't enough. Someone also has to be armed at all times.

Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 2, 2015 - 09:30pm PT
One needs LOTS of training to get a carry permit, btw.

Open carry is legal without a permit in Oregon. You get funny looks at Starbucks, though. Especially from the cops having coffee.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 2, 2015 - 09:36pm PT
Well guys, with the military being downsized lots of vets are joining the ranks of the unemployed. For starters, they could go reserve status and be deployed to some of the problem areas.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 2, 2015 - 09:41pm PT

Especially from the cops having coffee.

you got cops go'in to starbucks? they must be overpaid.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 2, 2015 - 09:49pm PT
Bad, some would argue that all teachers should carry guns. I know a lot of teachers. Not one of them thinks that is a good idea.

Guns are a main part of the problem. You think there would have been a mass stabbing today? The NRA is mostly to blame. The debate will have to go through them, defeat them. They are the enemy of a civilized society.

I'm not talking about hunting rifles and legitimate weapons for home defense. And I'm not saying I have all the answers or there's one quick fix. But we have to take the question of guns on as a nation. Now.

Blaming this on guns is akin to blaming arson on matches and military-grade large capacity gasoline containers.

Every situation has a root cause, and it's there and only there that the solution can be found. The recent murders at the party have a cause. That cause bears no relation to the causes of the 4000 other murders today all over the world. Likewise the solutions are going to be different.

New laws and legislation are enormously broad strokes that affect only those willing to follow them and to add to a compendium of millions of other laws and legislation is absurd.

The best thing I ever did was kill the Tee-vee.... I'm sure they've got everyone all whipped up into a frenzy by now.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 2, 2015 - 09:54pm PT

Furthermore, it's a proven fact that untrained people are more likely to shoot themselves, or their friends, as opposed to shooting the bad guys.

maybe somebody should hand Sumner a shotgun? He's certainly spewing forth huge cornicorpulous amounts of steaming staunchy BS especially what a christian is, he should just pridefully take one for the gipper.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 2, 2015 - 10:12pm PT
THE ANSWER - WHICH HAS NEVER BEEN GIVEN A TRULY EFFECTIVE TRIAL - IS MORE GUNS. ISSUE ONE TO EVERY CITIZEN OVER THE AGE OF FIVE YEARS OLD AND MANDATE CONCEALED AND OPEN CARRY AS A CIVIC RESPONSIBILITY IN DEFENSE OF THE HOMELAND.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 2, 2015 - 10:19pm PT
Yeah, but the victims all worked for the County Health Department.
I've dealt with a bunch of those guys, and not one was what I would consider to be a stable person. I don't trust these guys with guns. It's bad enough some of them drive.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 2, 2015 - 10:25pm PT
Well, probably best not to go down the road of who one trusts with guns. I personally don't trust the NRA with one.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Dec 2, 2015 - 10:25pm PT
Since this thread stared, an average of 180 people have been murdered in this country. One every 39 minutes. These media events generate all this angst and yet 100's of times more people are Murdered annually, alone, semi anonymously, mourned only by family and friends.

And still, Murder is down 40% over the last 20 years.

3000 Americans a day have died from heart disease and cancer since this thread started.... so what is that like...15,000 people?

ya'all freakin over 14 make me sad... humans are not good at math and threat assessment OR RESOURCE ALLOCATION apparently.

Issue every person in the USA 5 guns (loaded) and you wouldn't even begin to touch the 10th highest cause of death in America. HOWEVER YOU WOULD BE NEARLY ON PAR WITH DROWNING...
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Dec 2, 2015 - 10:31pm PT

Dec 2, 2015 - 09:27pm PT
One needs LOTS of training to get a carry permit, btw.

Doesn't that vary from state to state? I could be wrong, but I believe Texas requires a 5 hour course. That doesn't seem like much training.

As for training people.. they would have to carry at all times for it to be effective.

consider

Fort Hood… 2009 12 dead.. 32 wounded
Navy Yard near D.C. 2013 13 dead 4 wounded.

Training obviously isn't enough. Someone also has to be armed at all times.


John, I might be wrong, but our soldiers live in a "gun free zone" Armed Security Guards came to stop the carnage.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 2, 2015 - 10:35pm PT
It would seem that of late it's been safer for vets to serve in a war zone than to come home to America.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Dec 2, 2015 - 10:37pm PT
Seem...perhaps...depending on ones abilities of perception.

Actually...not hardly..not even close to the hazards of serving on the deck of an aircraft carrier in 'preacetime' Let alone Kandahar on a daily basis.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 2, 2015 - 10:43pm PT
My favorite juxtaposition as stated by the endless spin-zone media:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/03/us/san-bernardino-shooting.html

The Obumbalator in Chief says: "The one thing we do know is that we have a pattern now of mass shootings in this country that has no parallel anywhere else in the world, and there’s some steps we could take, not to eliminate every one of these mass shootings, but to improve the odds that they don’t happen as frequently."

Soooo... WHAT can we do to "improve the odds" according to him? Of course: More gun control.

But after the reported POTUS angst, the very next paragraph says:

"California has the strictest gun laws in the nation, according to the most recent report card by the Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence. It is among a handful of states that ban sale or possession of many assault weapons, including the most common models, although people who owned those firearms before they were banned are allowed to keep them. It was not known where and how the suspects obtained their weapons."

Soooo.... MORE GUN CONTROL is desperately needed! We MUST "stop the carnage."

Except that....

"California has the strictest gun laws in the nation..." and is LITERALLY the poster-child-state for what the POTUS (and now the Hillabeast) would LOVE to institute nationally.

"It was not known where and how the suspects obtained their weapons." But that pesky fact DOES NOT MATTER! What matters is that we CAN, somehow, certainly, with enough LAWS, the RIGHT LAWS, control this stuff, and we WILL "improve the odds," even though NOBODY has the foggiest causal clue WHAT drives these events.

Uh huh. Right.

Bring on Minority Report.
John M

climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 10:44pm PT
You are correct for Fort Hood. Thats why I said one would have to carry at all times. These things happen fairly quickly. My point was simply that training isn't enough. One has to have a weapon handy. I don't really trust most people to properly handle situations like this. Even with training. This is why I don't believe that more guns is the answer. If it were even remotely possible, banning all guns would be about the only thing that would help, and I don't believe thats possible, nor am I for it. The next thing to do is ban all semi and fully automatic weapons and only allow single shot weapons. That of course isn't going to happen. So the final thing to do is figure out why we are so violent. Thats also something that isn't going to happen anytime soon. We as humans are stuck in a vicious cycle of violence.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Dec 2, 2015 - 10:46pm PT
Mad bolter.."strictest gun control in the USA" isn't saying much. Sorta like saying slowest man a the olympics 100M sprint.

My god this whole conversation is so full of bullshit on both sides of the supposed argument that its ...

basically a comedy and a tragedy combined.

Fortunately it's a pointless issue that has almost no bearing on how 99.9 percent of Americans will die.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 2, 2015 - 10:48pm PT
"strictest gun control in the USA"

The very definition of an oxymoron.
John M

climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 10:49pm PT
3000 Americans a day have died from heart disease and cancer since this thread started.... so what is that like...15,000 people?

you say this as though people don't seem to care about this. Yet we do. Billions have been spent on these issues. So its a poor argument.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Dec 2, 2015 - 10:50pm PT
YER GUNNA DIE... odds are about 10,000 to 1 a bullet will do the job....

Yeah..even in America.
John M

climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 10:52pm PT
I see your point now. We exaggerate the danger. I agree.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Dec 2, 2015 - 10:52pm PT
you say this as though people don't seem to care about this. Yet we do. Billions have been spent on these issues. So its a poor argument.

Apparently they dont care about this...since iI have yet to see a single thread about it.

yet we have endless threads about a supposed serious threat that will almost certainly kill none of the people posting in them.

While what I mentioned WILL ABSOLUTELY kill 1/2 of us.
John M

climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 10:54pm PT
why do we need to discuss it when we already know that we have some of our best minds/doctors trying to solve it? Or do you believe that the issue is something beyond a physical problem?
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Dec 2, 2015 - 10:58pm PT
Just saying ..have a bit of perspective... gun control is one of the lowest problems america faces.. mortally or economically...

It's not worth 1 minute of discussion vs at least 50 other problems no one talks about.

Terrorism is even less of an issue than gun deaths in America...

Yet somehow everyone has gotten brainwashed into considering it worth spending billions of dollars on?

Wanna know what the real problem in America is...

Werner knows..

Americans are STUUUPID

Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:01pm PT
I can just see the Feds or the local SWAT going in and trying to figure who the perps are when everyone has their own gun and they all decide that "now's the time to start shooting back".

Yeah, right.

Carry on.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:05pm PT
Someone should have taken me up on my bet regarding the Mexican Cartel Hitmen.

Instead, appears it was Jihadist Jane and her Jihadist Husband doing the deed.

Gonna be interesting to see how the POTUS skates around the super thin ice on this one in the morning. Obviously he will reiterate his not going to call em for what they truly are routine so as not to offend anyone.

But by god, if this was another Cop on unarmed Blackman incident, he'd be all over it calling it for what it was. As he has done so well thus far.

Better yet, he'll blame it on....

madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:07pm PT
"strictest gun control in the USA" isn't saying much.

Actually it is saying a lot, particularly in the context of this latest mass-shooting.

California already bans both the sale and possession of the very weapons used. California already has the very gun-control laws that the left is advocating to go nationwide, so it has been for decades an empirical experiment in the value of such laws.

If you want to talk about not "saying much," the truth is that this (and other California incidents) demonstrates that you can't say much for the value of the exact sort of gun-control that the left wants to make national.

JohnM summed it up nicely: We need to get to the basis of why a TINY subset of people have become more murderous than we saw, say, 30 or 40 years ago. But, as he also noted, that's so difficult (and, I would add, contentious) that we are not going to discover the actual causal chains. Thus, gun-control is a genuine red herring and really only amounts to CONTROL simpliciter.

Free Americans don't want any part of more control, particularly when it can't be demonstrated to serve any useful purpose.

So, yes, while the odds of being a victim of this sort of incident are very, very low, the odds of the left spinning such incidents into "justifications" for imposing more and more CONTROLS are at 100%.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:09pm PT
So, yes, while the odds of being a victim of this sort of incident are very, very low, the odds of the left spinning such incidents into "justifications" for imposing more and more CONTROLS are at 100%.


I'll Agree with that. But then again.. I don't really care. Take every gun... give everyone 5 guns...

Not gunna matter either way. It's a dumb f*#king issue.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:13pm PT
Ski2, not one peep about Monsanto from you. Their operation globally the past 60 or so years has certainly played a major role in your latest rant regarding cancer and heart disease etc.

Thing about them, Monsanto that is, you will assuredly vote for one of their biggest key supporters next Nov to be our next POTUS.

Go figure.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:16pm PT
Monsanto is a MUCH bigger issue. Although I'd bet we would disagree as to why. I may be unaware of something regarding Cancer or Heart disease..however I am sure their agricultural product does not cause these health issues any more than any of their competitors..including so called organics.

In my mind it has to do with the legal and strategic issues regarding licensing of critical advanced productive agricultural strains. This will affect the lives and more realistically the security of way more people than any amount of guns in the USA.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:23pm PT
I'm getting tired of law enforcement having all the tools it needs to stop something like this before it happens, yet law enforcement chooses to squander its resources doing less important things.

Instead of 500 cops massing after the crime to come clean up the mess, it would have only taken TWO cops to arrest Farook & Wife the day before for felony weapons possession.

498 cops could have had the day off, and 14 innocent people would still be alive, if we could only get the cops to enforce existing laws, using the tools we already gave them.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:25pm PT
My fear of these attacks, terrorist or otherwise, is the erosion of rights that seems to result. The government has our bodies through ACA, our privacy through the Patriot act, and now they want to control our thoughts and talk lest we offend some wacko group prompting a murderous result. There is a big leftist movement afoot to disarm us so only the criminals, crazies and terrorists have firearms.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:25pm PT
It's a dumb f*#king issue.

I'm with you! There are MUCH bigger issues facing this nation, even considering all forms of easily preventable death! And NONE of the known solutions require mastermind controls that violate the basic principles of our republic.

I just wish that the left would recognize HOW dumb their relentless efforts to achieve CONTROL really are. THEY are the ones that make this an issue. Consequently, in the spirit of "eternal vigilance," liberty-minded people ARE going to fight back against the "thinking" that is all about imposing more (utterly useless) CONTROL.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:25pm PT
^^^^ Monsanto's Pesticides... not an issue.


Got it.


PS: Tell that to the over 225K plus Vietnam Vets alone that have died or are dying of cancer and other diseases related to... Agent Orange.

Of which, many of the same ingredients are contained in most of the general pesticide products that have been commonly used in agriculture throughout the world the past 50 years.

Now GMO's.



And so many lefty looons are carrying on about guns.


Too funneee!!!!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:46pm PT
...that will almost certainly kill none of the people posting in them.

Yeah, but it's getting to be sort of like belayers with grigris dropping people - you may not have been dropped, but these days pretty much everyone under the age of fifty has either been dropped, dropped someone, knows someone who has, or has witness it. Great when it isn't you, but the idea that's justification for saying it's not a serious problem is ludicrous.

...free americans...

Love the code-smithing around how the fringe right self-identifies these days.

Can graduate courses in Skousenology be far behind...
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:54pm PT
Hey, Chief, and exactly why is it the republicans are rabidly anti-Islam and spouting endlessly about Obama's lack of strategy on ISIS, but yet steadfastly block all administration requests for an AUMF. As usual, no surprises from the chickenhawk party when it comes to put up or shutup.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:57pm PT
how the fringe right self-identifies these days

"Fringe right?" LOL

What even IS that?

I for one can't "self identify" that way because this "self" can't "identify" what the phrase means.

The right is as much about CONTROL as is the left, just about different issues.

The right moans about "leftist masterminds," while the right wants to control gays, women's rights, and a host of other "moral issues." The left moans about "fascist right-wingers," while the left wants to control guns, drugs (ironically, like the right), and even thoughts (certainly speech). They are NO different. Same basic agenda, and neither understands liberty.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 3, 2015 - 12:01am PT
Oh, I see, so you do hit that libertarian sweet spot. Very Sko...

What is 'fringe right'?

And I'd ask the same: what are 'free americans'?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 3, 2015 - 12:06am PT
I'll help you see that you answered your own question....

what are 'free americans'?

Answer....

that libertarian sweet spot.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 3, 2015 - 12:26am PT
Well, just what kind of libertarian are you? They seem to be a veritable rainbow of fringe thinking. Are you of the secure hacienda, chemtrails, guns, gold standard, constitution-as-fossil, or the black-guberment-helicopter camp?

Oh, and we should be in good shape protection-wise unless of course a terrorist decides to take off on foot at a pace faster than brisk walk. They got nothing on 'fat guys on aid'. Exercise? F*#k no, who needs that? We've got guns! Sh#t, I know I feel safer.


Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 3, 2015 - 12:36am PT
Those don't look like California cops.

"The cops are well-groomed with muscled physiques
In butt town
Their tan uniforms are tailored in chic
In butt town"

East coast cops can get away with being all sloppy looking. Fat. Bad posture. Poor fitting uniform. That sh#t won't fly here. The crooks will laugh at them.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 3, 2015 - 12:45am PT
They seem to be a veritable rainbow of fringe thinking. Are you of the secure hacienda, chemtrails, guns, gold standard, constitution-as-fossil, or the black-guberment-helicopter camp?

Flat out, knee-slapping funny.

Also, flat out, knee-slapping straw-manning.

My position is simple: When you want a law to control me, you have to demonstrate how your negative rights are violated if such a control is not in place. Staying on topic here, my possession and carrying of a gun violates NONE of your rights. So, you have no right to try to control my possession and carrying of it.

If you want laws to control the "bad guys'" possession and carrying of a gun, because you are worried that they MIGHT violate one or more of your rights, then you merely have to get over two bars: 1) demonstrate how you can control the bad guys (who, you say, MIGHT violate one of your rights) without controlling me (who is neither violating nor potentially violating one of your rights); 2) demonstrate the causal connection between the proposed controls of the bad guys and the protection of your rights.

The gun-control crowd has done neither and doesn't even have a good idea about how to do either. ALL they can propose is to violate the well-established rights of everybody in the vague, disconnected hope that they can PERHAPS "affect the odds" of POTENTIAL violations of the rights of somebody. After all, "we've gotta do something!"

A classical libertarian believes that the default position should be to do nothing and that it takes getting over BOTH bars mentioned above before you should consider "doing something."
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Dec 3, 2015 - 12:52am PT
The gun-control crowd .... doesn't even have a good idea about how to do either.
Wrong.

Repeal the 2nd Amendment.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 3, 2015 - 12:55am PT

you got cops go'in to starbucks? they must be overpaid.

Cops and firemen get free brewed coffee almost anywhere in this town. Show up around 9:00 and the place looks like the cops descended on a crime scene.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 3, 2015 - 12:55am PT
Start by melting down 2/3 of the weapons currently in the possession of free americans. Title, license and insure the remaining hundred million guns.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 3, 2015 - 12:58am PT
Repeal the 2nd Amendment.

That was a mind-numbing suggestion insofar as it addressed neither of the points to which the word "idea" was referring.

The points were: 1) demonstrate how you can control the bad guys....

Oh, sheesh. Why bother?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 3, 2015 - 01:00am PT
Start by down 2/3 of the weapons currently in the possession of free americans.

How you gonna do it?

How you gonna do it without violating the rights of those free Americans?

Title, license and insure the remaining hundred million guns.

How's it going to have ANY effect on incidents like this latest one?

How's it going to TOUCH the bad guys that are the ones that need touching?


Edit: IUDs are already illegal. Oh, silly me. I mean IEDs. Well, I guess that depending upon whether you're left or right, it amounts to about the same thing.

Anyway, there should be NO IEDs in the possession of everyday citizens. Right? Not a 2/3 reduction! NONE!

So, there outta be a law! Oh, wait, there already is. Dang those criminals that just WILL NOT be controlled!
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Dec 3, 2015 - 01:16am PT
I know this is posted on CNN and that is always questionable but in reading this article and the links I'm wondering where the flaws are. So help me understand why would anyone defend this aspect of the NRA? Serious question.

Though I don't agree with much of what madbolter writes I do respect his opinion as well as a few others on this thread that at least appear to be able to think for themselves. So maybe he or they could take a stab at it and share their perspective.

Obviously any Republican might take offense at the tone of the article but if one can get past that I'd really be interested in knowing the "other side" of the why hasn't this happened yet.

Thanks

from http://edition.cnn.com/2015/12/02/opinions/wheeler-nra-guns-terrorists/index.html

David R. Wheeler is a freelance writer and a journalism professor at the University of Tampa. Follow him on Twitter: @David_R_Wheeler. The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of the author.

(CNN)During this holiday season, if some of your loved ones are Republican, consider giving them the gift of a reality check.

I know there are plenty of sane Republicans out there. I've met some. In fact, years ago, I was a registered Republican myself. That phase lasted right up to the point where I noticed a new world order of haves and have-nots, with terms dictated by Wall Street and Silicon Valley. Nowadays, I stare at the party in bewilderment.

The latest mind-numbing puzzle: The GOP is blocking a law that would prevent known and suspected terrorists from buying guns.

This is not just a what-if scenario. The nonpartisan Government Accountability Office recently released a report showing that from 2004 to 2014, people on terrorism watch lists successfully purchased guns no fewer than 2,043 times.

Yes, you read that right.

In light of the horrific shooting in San Bernardino, California, that killed at least 14 people, President Barack Obama spoke on Wednesday about the need to reform gun laws.

He also added, "For those who are concerned about terrorism of, you know, some may be aware of the fact that we have a no fly list where people can't get on planes, but those same people who we don't allow to fly could go into a store right now in the United States and buy a firearm and there's nothing that we can do to stop them."

There are 700,000 people on the terrorist watch list, and when these people tried to legally purchase guns, they had a success rate of 91%.

"Membership in a terrorist organization does not prohibit a person from possessing firearms or explosives under current federal law," the GAO warned back in 2010.

This situation has a simple solution: Pass a law that stops known and suspected terrorists from buying guns.

In fact, just such a bill was introduced earlier this year, and it has a pretty straightforward name: The Denying Firearms and Explosives to Dangerous Terrorists Act of 2015. It was introduced by Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-California, and Rep. Peter King, R-New York -- one of those sane Republicans I was talking about.

Can you guess which villain defeated the bill? I'll give you a hint: The initials are NRA.

"It's sort of a knee-jerk reaction," King told the New York Daily News. "The National Rifle Association is strongly opposed to it, and the fact is we have only a handful of Republican co-sponsors."

That's right. The National Rifle Association is so powerful that it can ensure that common-sense bills keeping guns away from potential terrorists are blocked in Congress.

In objecting to versions of the bill, the NRA used the same worn-out rhetoric they've been using for decades; namely, passing such a law won't stop criminals from illegally acquiring guns.

There is no law that would stop all criminals from ever using a gun. But we need every tool possible to fight gun violence, especially in an era when mass shootings have become a regular occurrence and when terrorists use guns as their weapon of choice.

When George W. Bush was president, he was one of those Republicans who often ignored calls for a reality check. But even he understood the need to fix this loophole in the law. In 2007, his administration proposed the legislation, but by the time it was introduced two years later, the NRA called up its buddies in Congress and stopped the bill.

After the terror attacks in Paris last month, some gun-rights advocates in the United States pointed out that France's strict gun-control laws did not stop the violence. But there are three important counterarguments.

First, we don't know how many would-be attackers were successfully stopped by France's laws. Crimes that don't happen don't make headlines. For national security reasons, it's rare to hear about thwarted plots.

Second, the numbers show a definitive contrast regarding gun violence between our countries. In France, the gun death rate is about 2.83 per 100,000 people; in the U.S. it's 10.69 per 100,000 people. In other words, the U.S. gun death rate is more than triple that of France.

The third counterargument, and perhaps most important one, is the message we're sending by failing to act.

If we can't close a loophole that allows known and suspected terrorists to legally purchase guns, what does that say about us? What does that say about special interest groups' ability to "buy" politicians? What are our children learning about how democracy works in America when even the majority of gun owners support laws preventing people on terror watch lists from buying guns?

This holiday season, in addition to the gifts of sweaters, ties and books that you're giving your Republican loved ones, also consider giving them a reality check.

Their party has been overtaken by zealots, and we need rational voices to come to the rescue.

Additional links:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/11/16/why-the-nra-opposed-laws-to-prevent-suspected-terrorists-from-buying-guns/

http://www.feinstein.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/files/serve/?File_id=e0e0dab0-d7d7-4dca-83da-7b68f5be2b47

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 3, 2015 - 01:31am PT
There's those 'free americans' again; I love that one.

No one's rights were being violated by the guy open carrying in the street in CS a bit ago and so 911 wouldn't dispatch on it. Well, they weren't being violated until they were violently violated.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 3, 2015 - 01:41am PT
Thank you for your approach to the question, Delhi Dog. I've gotta head to bed, but I'll say two things in response to your question:

1) I'm no friend (or member) of the NRA. I often find their positions by turn: unprincipled, knee-jerk, hyper-defensive, and pandering.

That said....

2) What concerns me about the phrase "known or suspected terrorists" used as justification for legislating away rights is that "terrorists" is itself not a well-defined term, and "known or suspected" does NOT equate to "convicted."

Every citizen IS a law-abiding citizen unless CONVICTED otherwise by a jury of peers. The mere fact that the bought-and-paid-for government-of-the-moment labels somebody as a "known or suspected terrorist" doesn't equate to a conviction that justifies infringing their rights.

See, the problem is that there is precious little "watching" of the people on these "watch lists!" Witness the Boston Marathon bombers. These "watch lists" are not worth the paper (bytes) they are written on.

The net effect is that the government USES these incidents to froth up the public in a bid for yet more on-paper control, when it also knows full well that it lacks the capacity to make GOOD use of that control once it has it. CONTROL simpliciter is what power-mongers want. "Your best interest" is the lie it tells to soothe you to sleep while it forces your head down onto the pillow.

Oh, wait. Here on a public forum I'm bad-mouthing the intentions and basic integrity of our duly-elected government. I must be a closet terrorist. AND I've publicly stated that I'm armed! Call the FBI and Homeland Security! Put me on a "watch list."

See, the word "terrorist" has virtually no meaning, since it can be cast to mean anything needed for convenience. Yet it is employed like a technical term with rigorous meaning. It's all a giant shell game.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 3, 2015 - 01:45am PT
Well, they weren't being violated until they were violently violated.

And THAT is the point. We do not live in Minority Report! We do NOT engage in pre-crime enforcement!

We do not presume to know somebody's actual intentions until they act on them.

If you want a pre-crime police state, then MOVE to one of them. I hear that Singapore is a nice place to live. There's not even graffiti to disturb the splendor of the almost complete control.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 3, 2015 - 02:22am PT
CONTROL simpliciter is what power-mongers want.

The paranoia is palpable. And it's all an intellectual hyper-fantasy. But, taking up the fantasy, just how long do you suppose that free americans could hold out once the guberment turned off electricity, gas, water, gasoline, food distribution and shutdown fast food joints. I'd give'em a couple of days to a couple of weeks, max.



Oh, and let me guess, ISIS rhetoric clearly incited this couple to an act of workplace violence, but incendiary gop campaign rhetoric had no influence on the planned parenthood shooter. Got it.
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Dec 3, 2015 - 04:58am PT
Thanks for the reply MB and your thoughts. You too Healyje:-)

I do get the "innocent until proven guilty" part of our system. And that is something I hold to be sacred. And our government doesn't have the best track record (witness the Patriot Act for example) as it applies to citizens.
I also have first hand experience with red flags and being stopped at the "border".

A short story for example...We were returning to the US a few years ago and as we were going through passport control in LA our youngest daughter's (then she was 17) name came up on some "watch list".

She had to answer some questions and the scrutiny was real. Since we were coming from India somehow her name came up with connections to the Mumbai bombings that had recently happened. Long story short there obviously was a "glitch" in the system and the officer had the common sense to see we were a family, we were teachers returning for summer vacation and we had all the right documentation to back that up. We've also been to many of the ME countries so the combinations might have been the tipping point.

It didn't bother me though. I was glad someone was checking even if they were wrong. Would I have felt the same if they took her away for further interrogation? Probably, but I also know that we had nothing to hide too so although it would have been a hassle I get it.

Surely if we're all working together and have the best interest of our country in mind we can make some of what is proposed in that article work. Maybe I'm just naive and a dummy but I do know the NRA does not have the best interest of everyone in mind, but rather the money made in the selling of fear to John Q. public.

Unfortunately our country's education has been going downhill for years and one of the major results of that is the inability for the public to think critically and to question what is being put out by the media, the government, and the internet wankers...

So, I have no answers but it sure frustrates me too see how so many of us have become such sheep.
Already you can see posters here pulling the Muslim card simply because these shooters have names that sound Islamic. Maybe there is a connection maybe not, but certainly the brain trust here on SP isn't too keen on the idea of "innocent until proven guilty."

Throw a Trump card into that and good luck USA. Right now it's guilty until proven innocent or in this case, "terrorist" until proven not.
little Z

Trad climber
un cafetal en Naranjo
Dec 3, 2015 - 05:00am PT
Farouk???? I told y'all not to piss him off.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 05:29am PT
madbolter posted
My position is simple: When you want a law to control me, you have to demonstrate how your negative rights are violated if such a control is not in place. Staying on topic here, my possession and carrying of a gun violates NONE of your rights. So, you have no right to try to control my possession and carrying of it.

This is nice libertarian rhetoric but has no foundation in current law or the constitution. I agree with the concept as a principal to be considered but we regulate all kinds of things that don't harm other people. Additionally, it's more than a little bit of a stretch to argue that weapons are not inherently dangerous. I sympathize with your desire to carry a weapon but the reality of how guns are used has created a clear line where one cannot both believe in our current regime of widespread gun ownership and also pretend to care about gun violence. Your position (and that of our country at large, currently) can accurately be characterized as "my right to carry a gun is more important than the public's right to protect itself from gun violence."
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2015 - 06:03am PT
For those arguing that gun reforms are ineffective I suggest a review of the original "Assault weapons" ban and it's subsequent repeal. Then try to argue away the facts.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 06:10am PT
The assault weapons ban from the 90's may have had some effective elements but in general gun enthusiasts appear to be correct that a lot of the criteria used by legislators are focused on cosmetic features and not performance. Real legislation would focus on holding people/companies responsible for the guns they sell/own, limiting rate of fire/caliber and limiting magazine size. All of this will require a significant culture change with a public health focus similar to smoking or obesity. Places we can start is with demanding strict record keeping on gun use, lifting the bans on public health research related to gun safety and encourage public health professionals and institutions to address gun safety and violent culture as an issue. This will require that we lift state bans on these things such as the measure in Florida.

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/08/doctors-cant-ask-about-guns/375566/
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2015 - 06:13am PT
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 06:15am PT
How can he possibly know that? I bet he doesn't even own a gun!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 3, 2015 - 06:33am PT
How can he possibly know that?

Yeah, how can he know that since the NRA has outlawed research into gun violence.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2015 - 06:34am PT
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2015 - 06:55am PT
Is it?
Or is that just your skew?
Maybe talk to some people who actually know me.
Being passionate about important issues does not equate to being an angry person.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2015 - 07:04am PT





172
SAN ANTONIO - Police have charged an elderly man with shooting his neighbor because the victim parked in front of his home.

According to information released by the San Antonio Police Department, 44-year-old Manuel Lopez parked in front of his neighbor's home on Elvira Street on Sunday afternoon.

That's when investigators say 74-year-old Franklin Martinez came out of his home and began yelling at Lopez about where he had parked.

When Lopez said he would not move his car, police say Martinez shot Lopez in the head.

Lopez was taken to University Hospital and listed in critical condition. He is expected to survive his injuries.

Martinez drove off, but was caught in Leon Valley. He has been charged with aggravated assault with a deadly weapon.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 07:10am PT
It's clearly Lopez's fault for not identifying the threat and having his gun already drawn.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Dec 3, 2015 - 07:29am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]


Forget about going to gun shop let's just build the damn things..
zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 07:29am PT
Re: San Antonio

How aggravating.

Same thing happened in San Diego a couple of years ago, but I think the victim died.



Gary

Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
Dec 3, 2015 - 07:32am PT
Apogee, did The Chief pay off his bet?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 07:36am PT
What was the bet?
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 3, 2015 - 07:42am PT
Start by melting down 2/3 of the weapons currently in the possession of free americans.

Of course nothing to be done about the over 10 million plus ILLEGAL weapons on the streets. Nothing.

So the logic goes, take the guns away from all the law abiding citz and allow the criminals to keep theirs.

Next thing you are going to post Healyje is some very logical statement such as this one...





Apogee, did The Chief pay off his bet?

He nor anyone else took it. Gary. Go figure that one. Twit....




So here's your "logical" solutions Healyje (and just about all you other freaking LOONS here).

1.Take guns away from all Law Abiding Americans but allow the criminals to maintain custody of theirs cus their isn't any way you will ever get them turn theirs in nor confiscate them.

2. Mandate that Cops stop patrolling the streets thus no longer having the ability to racially profile individuals in order to outright murder them.

3. Open the borders to all and anyone allowing them free access to this country then giving them all the free tax payer paid for benefits that are given US citz.

4. Last but not least, Tax the living shet out of carbon fuel producers and emitters cus by god, it's all Climate Change's fault.

Got it...


[Click to View YouTube Video]
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Dec 3, 2015 - 07:43am PT
$10 ?

or voluntary account deactivation/self deportation

I would take the latter

Derp

------


Philo - Nice meme.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Dec 3, 2015 - 07:46am PT
Lost in LIBERLAND


+1 chief
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 3, 2015 - 07:48am PT
Hey Gary, next possible "soft target" would most certainly NEVER be a Cal-Trans office such as yours with "Gun Free Zone" signs plastered all over the exteriors of all doors leading into the building mandated by our loving Governor.


apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 3, 2015 - 07:55am PT
Chief, f*#k off.

Twit.


Have a nice day.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 3, 2015 - 07:59am PT
Yo Apogee...



When you've got the fringe righties here all heated up you know you're telling the truth.

Hmmmmm, (scratching my head).... I must be telling the "gospel truth" as I get ALL you Lefty crankaloons far above and beyond the boiling temp on a regular basis.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2015 - 08:01am PT
No you make us laugh. We respond to your babbling lunacy because you are easy.
You are a soft target.
MikeMc

Social climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 08:04am PT
^^^ you're
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2015 - 08:06am PT
Got it.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 3, 2015 - 08:08am PT
Hey Philo!!!






Have fun you logical lefty LOOONS.

Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 3, 2015 - 08:18am PT
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2015 - 08:18am PT
Farook and Malik were dressed in black masks and tactical gear, armed with long guns and pistols, when they entered the holiday party as it was in full swing, police said. Before they fled, they had killed 14 people and wounded 17 others.

Two of the four weapons used in the shooting were legally purchased, according to Meredith Davis, public information officer for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives in Los Angeles. She said agents would "continue to investigate leads concerning the two additional firearms
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Dec 3, 2015 - 08:20am PT
No you make us laugh. We respond to your babbling lunacy because you are easy.
You are a soft target.

Funny. Looks the opposite to me.

Chief regularly posts inflammatory crap. Everyone knows his game. Yet, he's got a following... more like a hate squad... that does its best to insult/attack/offend him.

It's all very pavlovian.
zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 08:20am PT
Number nine, number nine

Sometimes ya just gots to have a gun (or more)

(KARK) Authorities in Van Buren County, Arkansas say they were forced to shoot nine dogs in order to recover the body of pet hoarder who passed away inside her rural home.

The dogs had already consumed part of the woman’s body.

“When the deputies arrived on the scene to get in to her, the dogs were vicious. You couldn’t even get into the trailer to check on her to see what needed to be done,” Van Buren County Sheriff Scott Bradley said.
WBraun

climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 08:21am PT
Farook and Malik were dressed in black masks and tactical gear

The bodies after being shot during the so called gun battle were in regular street clothes and the woman was in dress and high heels.

Photoshop crew is standing by to fix their fukup .....
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 3, 2015 - 08:24am PT
Two of the four weapons used in the shooting were legally purchased,


And ILLEGALLY utilized by the two perps. None of the weps utilized by the individuals yesterday were legally registered to the individuals. Thus rendering them totally ILLEGAL by both Strict CA and Fed current Gun Control Acquisition and Ownership laws.


Also, according to the logic that abounds here, the actual registered owners of the weapons utilized yesterday should be held totally accountable for allowing the perps access to their weapons. I concur 100%.
John M

climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 08:25am PT
I don't know if this has been posted before. It seems to be a well written article.

If you disagree with it, instead of sneering at me for finding it believable, why not try to refute it.

http://www.vox.com/2015/10/3/9444417/gun-violence-united-states-america

watch the video. Its very interesting.

philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2015 - 08:29am PT
Dear America: Here's Your Gun Solution
2 hours ago | Updated 1 hour ago
Sara Benincasa Comedian; author of "DC Trip" (Adaptive Books)

Bloomberg via Getty Images
Here's some common sense for you. I want gun ownership to be as boring and annoying as car ownership. I want you to go to some Department of Weapons and sit for hours. I want folks who own guns to prove their skill, their mental and physical health, and to be licensed and reviewed over the years just as happens with our driver's licenses. You earn the right to own and drive a vehicle; earn the right to own and use a gun.
Quibble with me over semantics if you want to; what is a "right" vs. what is a "privilege." I'll be busy with my friends and colleagues trying to prevent more unnecessary deaths.
Gun ownership isn't some inalienable right granted by God. Remember, the Constitution was written by men coming out of a long and bloody war near the end of the 18th century. It was written for their time.
It also included the "right" to own a human being.
Things change.
Folks evolve.
I want a voluntary federal buyback program for firearms, with hunting weapons and vintage/historic weapons exempt. I want the sale of weapons to be even more tightly controlled than the sale of Xanax and other controlled substances. I want advertising for firearms to be as regulated as DTC (direct to consumer) advertising for pharmaceuticals ("May cause shortness of breath, long-lasting boners, etc.") We can do all of this. It'll likely create jobs, believe it or not: regulators, educators, enforcers.
It will not end murder. It won't end rape or robbery either. It will make it harder to commit those crimes. There will be a black market for guns as there is for any coveted item in a capitalist society. (And I'm not anti-capitalism, btw. I'm a big fan! Sorry, hippies. I do love you guys, by the way, you're very nice people with good instincts.)
Continuing education credits for gun owners should be required, just as they are with medical professionals.
When you have a greater ability to take a human life, you have a greater responsibility to prove your fitness to wield the tools that may create that end.
And that's how the f*#k you well-regulate a goddamn American militia.
This post originally appeared on Medium.
More:
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 3, 2015 - 08:30am PT
John M!



VOX = FOX of the Liberal Media


John M

climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 08:34am PT
so you didn't read it or watch the video..

Check..

by the way.. I have no idea what vox is. I just read the article. Sometimes I even read articles from fox news. I do realize how biased it is. I try to see past the bias and understand what is being said.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 3, 2015 - 08:45am PT
Ah, WRONG John M.


Read the "original" article and watched the video/s back in Oct when it was "updated", pub'd and posted on some other LOON initiated anti-gun thread here on ST.

http://www.vox.com/2015/10/5/9454161/gun-violence-solution

http://www.vox.com/2015/10/3/9444417/gun-violence-united-states-america

Etc....


EDIT:


VOX = FOX of the Loon Liberal Media. FACT!
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 3, 2015 - 08:47am PT
Philo posted:

"Two of the four weapons used in the shooting were legally purchased..."



Since when are Straw Purchases legal?

Not in California, they aren't. You can look it up.

Philo, you need to think before you post this sh#t. Seriously.
John M

climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 08:51am PT
so how about refuting it if you disagree with what it says. Instead of just sneering. I dont[ know all of the background facts on this subject, so I can't refute what it says and shows. It seems logical to me, but I don't have enough history with this to know what is really a fact and what is a skewed interpretation.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 3, 2015 - 08:54am PT
Philo, you need to think before you post this sh#t. Seriously.

I'm tellin' ya, he's got digital turrets syndrome. When it is really bad he deletes and denies.
monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 3, 2015 - 08:58am PT
What make you think they were straw purchases, Chaz?

Farook could have bought those guns thru a private sale.
SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
Dec 3, 2015 - 09:16am PT
He nor anyone else took it. Gary. Go figure that one. Twit....

Perhaps because you took cheap to a new low level.

Susan
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 09:18am PT
"Philo, you need to think before you post this sh#t. Seriously."

That's impossible.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 3, 2015 - 09:31am PT
Monolith writes:

"What make you think they were straw purchases, Chaz?"



In California you have to go through a licensed gun dealer, with paperwork, transfer fee, and waiting period to legally transfer a gun to anyone outside your immediate family. ( your own brother is not considered immediate family, btw - he still needs to fill out the forms )

Buying a gun for a former roommate is the definition of straw purchase. The crime confirms it.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Dec 3, 2015 - 09:43am PT
Gun ownership isn't some inalienable right granted by God. Remember, the Constitution was written by men coming out of a long and bloody war near the end of the 18th century. It was written for their time.
It also included the "right" to own a human being.

Philo posted the above, and he should stop posting things that are obviously and provably false.
There is no "right" to own a human being in the US Constitution, even before the 13th Amendment.
At the time of the Constitution was ratified, lots of states outlawed slavery (although some of course permitted it).
If there were a Constitutional "right" to own a slave, then it would have been impossible for any state to (validly) outlaw it.
State law cannot trump a Constitutional right. (If you're interested in that point, read up on the "Supremacy Clause.")

It would be correct to say that the US Constitution as originally ratified acknowledged that slavery existed in parts of the US at that time.
But that's not what Philo wrote.

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 09:51am PT
It was implicitly allowed. There was a very robust debate on the issue and the northerners lost the argument. You can't get to a 3/5 compromise without very much allowing for the legality of slavery.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-Fifths_Compromise

You'll note that this is in the body of the Constitution. They thought addressing slavery's impact on elections was more important than anything in the Bill of Rights and they appear to have bent over backwards to avoid using the word "slavery" to make themselves feel better.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 09:52am PT
There's a lot uncertainty about viable solutions for gun violence.

Unfortunately, answers are harder to come by since for the past 20 years, the NRA has flexed its muscles to block federal funding of such research.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Dec 3, 2015 - 09:55am PT
HDDJ what you wrote is correct but it in now way contradicts that there was no RIGHT to slavery in the Constitution.
Again, if there were such a right, then no state could have outlawed slavery.
Many (most) states outlawed slavery at the time the Constitution was ratified.
Ergo, what Philo wrote was false.
This is really just elementary logic and history--there is no reason to be contentious about it.

Edit for those of you who are completely ignorant of fundamental principles of US law:
If you have a federal right (based on either a federal statute or the US Constitution), then no state can validly abridge that right. An example would be the "right" to an abortion (which should not be right because it is based on illegitimate liberal activist judges improper "interpretation" of the Constitution, but that's a separate point).
If a state law conflicts with your federal "right" to an abortion, then that state law is invalid an unenforceable.
If there were a federal "right" to slavery under the original US Constitution, no state could have prohibited it.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Dec 3, 2015 - 10:01am PT
Connecticut Sen. Chris Murphy tweeted a powerful message to those who lazily offer "thoughts and prayers" to victims of the San Bernardino shooting.

Chris Murphy
‏@ChrisMurphyCT
Your "thoughts" should be about steps to take to stop this carnage. Your "prayers" should be for forgiveness if you do nothing - again.
monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 3, 2015 - 10:04am PT
Chaz, the gun could have been bought out of state.

When you call it a straw purchase, you make the seller guilty as well, and so far, the feds have not made that claim.

How about we just wait for all the details of the gun history?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 3, 2015 - 10:10am PT
That would be illegal, too.

As much as I'd like to go home with some of the guns I see at Cabela's in Marysville ( WA ), all I can do with my California ID is look.

Plenty of laws, already on the books, had they been enforced, should have stopped this before it even started.
monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 3, 2015 - 10:12am PT
Yes, illegal, but not a straw sale.

Cabela's in Marysville ( WA ) would not be a private purchase.

Farook got the guns. Where in the process could the law have been enforced?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 3, 2015 - 10:15am PT
It's being reported he got guns from his former roommate. In California. Nothing legal about that.

To legally buy any gun from anyone, you have to do it in the state where you reside. That's already Federal law.
monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 3, 2015 - 10:16am PT
Illigal, but not a straw purchase.

Generally, one can purchase out of state, as long as you are satisfying the laws of both states.

No doubt Farook had some illegalities, but how would you enforce the law in this situation?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 3, 2015 - 10:20am PT
So that would be the exact opposite of "legally purchased", which is what Philo posted.

Show me the path to legalization any of these guns could have possibly taken to get into Farook's possession.
monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 3, 2015 - 10:22am PT
I already said there were probably some illegalities.

Still, not a straw sale.

Do you know what a straw sale is?

The guns were legally purchased by the last legal owner.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2015 - 10:24am PT
If you don't like my re-post then complain to the author of it not about me.


Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2015 - 08:29am PT
Dear America: Here's Your Gun Solution
2 hours ago | Updated 1 hour ago
Sara Benincasa Comedian; author of "DC Trip" (Adaptive Books)

I posted the byline in the post. learn to read.

And for my "friends" I'll post what ever and when ever I want.
Get over it.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 3, 2015 - 10:29am PT
"Do you know what a straw sale is?"


Yup.

Someone who either can't pass a background check ( impossible for a California resident ) or who doesn't want their identity known to the government ( "No doubt Farook had some illegalities, but how would you enforce the law in this situation?" ) uses a third party to up-arm.
monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 3, 2015 - 10:31am PT
No, a straw purchase is when one makes a purchase from an FFL with the intent of illegal distribution.

You need to show that the last legal purchase was done with the intent of illegal distribution.

Just because a gun was distributed later illegally, does not make it a straw purchase.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2015 - 10:31am PT
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 3, 2015 - 10:35am PT
At the time of the Constitution was ratified, lots of states outlawed slavery (although some of course permitted it).

No.

At the time the constitution was ratified, no states outlawed slavery. Some states (5 of the original 13) outlawed the sale and importation of slaves within their borders within a couple decades.

Vermont (14th State) was the first state to outlaw slavery, and they didn't do it as a state of the Union, but as the Vermont Free state before it was part of the United States, and before the Constitution. Other states freed persons born in the state, but didn't necessarily free existing enslaved persons ( New York)

That didn't mean you were free in Vermont or any other state by virtue of being in that state.. Article four of the constitution includes the fugitive slave clause.

No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, but shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due.

Not only can you be sent back to a slave state, but your service or labor isn't discharged in the "free state". The constitution thus expressly supported slavery.
That remained in place until the passage of the 13th amendment despite Lincoln's emancipation proclamation, which only applied to states in rebellion and was probably unconstitutional.
That's the reason the Underground Railroad ended in Canada.

The Dread Scott decision tested that clause. Here's the law of the land in 1857 until the passage of the 13th amendment.


On March 6, 1857, Chief Justice Roger B. Taney delivered the majority opinion. Taney ruled that:

Any person descended from Africans, whether slave or free, is not a citizen of the United States, according to the Constitution.
The Ordinance of 1787 could not confer either freedom or citizenship within the Northwest Territory to non-white individuals.
The provisions of the Act of 1820, known as the Missouri Compromise, were voided as a legislative act, since the act exceeded the powers of Congress, insofar as it attempted to exclude slavery and impart freedom and citizenship to non-white persons in the northern part of the Louisiana Purchase.[11]

The Court had ruled that African Americans had no claim to freedom or citizenship. Since they were not citizens, they did not possess the legal standing to bring suit in a federal court. As slaves were private property, Congress did not have the power to regulate slavery in the territories and could not revoke a slave owner's rights based on where he lived. This decision nullified the essence of the Missouri Compromise, which divided territories into jurisdictions either free or slave. Speaking for the majority, Taney ruled that because Scott was simply considered the private property of his owners, that he was subject to the Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution, prohibiting the taking of property from its owner "without due process".
( Wikipedia)

So The Supreme Court of the United States in a ruling which overrode state law, used the fifth amendment clause against illegal search and seizure to override any rights due blacks. ALL BLACKS.

as Taney explained:
It is difficult at this day to realize the state of public opinion in regard to that unfortunate race which prevailed in the civilized and enlightened portions of the world at the time of the Declaration of Independence, and when the Constitution of the United States was framed and adopted; but the public history of every European nation displays it in a manner too plain to be mistaken. They had for more than a century before been regarded as beings of an inferior order, and altogether unfit to associate with the white race, either in social or political relations, and so far unfit that they had no rights which the white man was bound to respect.[12]

Apparently he didn't consider England a European nation, or his Dickinson law degree failed him. Their slavery abolition act was in 1833. Their de facto end of slavery began around the revolutionary war before the Declaration of Independence. Slavery had never, in fact been authorized either by statute or common law in England and Wales.

In a 1772 English ruling (Somerset v. Stewart, Somerset being a black slave suing for freedom) Lord Mansfield said from the Kings Bench:
The state of slavery is of such a nature, that it is incapable of now being introduced by Courts of Justice upon mere reasoning or inferences from any principles, natural or political; it must take its rise from positive law; the origin of it can in no country or age be traced back to any other source: immemorial usage preserves the memory of positive law long after all traces of the occasion; reason, authority, and time of its introduction are lost; and in a case so odious as the condition of slaves must be taken strictly, the power claimed by this return was never in use here; no master ever was allowed here to take a slave by force to be sold abroad because he had deserted from his service, or for any other reason whatever; we cannot say the cause set forth by this return is allowed or approved of by the laws of this kingdom, therefore the black must be discharged.

The precise opposite of the fugitive slave clause, and penned 85 years earlier when the colonies were part of England.

I lived in Frederick, Maryland for about 20 years. The courthouse ( now city hall) was across the street from Taney's home and Francis Scott Keys home (Taney married Key's sister). I think they are now museums.

On the courthouse lawn, the two people commemorated with memorials are John Marshall and Roger Brooke Taney and I walked by a statue of that odious pig of a jurist every time I had business in the courthouse.


One of the blacker moments in the Supreme Court's defense of individual liberty.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 10:44am PT
Blahblah posted
HDDJ what you wrote is correct but it in now way contradicts that there was no RIGHT to slavery in the Constitution.
Again, if there were such a right, then no state could have outlawed slavery.

The Constitution didn't explicitly protect any individual rights at all so in that very technical way philo is "wrong." Pointing out that he's "wrong" is meaningless in that neither the Constitution nor the Bill of Rights did anything to protect Americans from slavery or indentured servitude and in fact created mechanisms to accommodate their existence. You're kind of taking a long walk to avoid the substance of his argument which is that the authors of the Constitution both lived in very different times with very different ideas of morality and also expected that we would revise the Constitution. I seem to recall Jefferson fully expected we would have torn the thing up by now.


Farouk posted
hahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I told you crankloons (Phillo) that is was an F'n Muslim!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Congratulations on your racism. You're clearly very proud.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 3, 2015 - 10:59am PT
Gun ownership isn't some inalienable right granted by God. Remember, the Constitution was written by men coming out of a long and bloody war near the end of the 18th century. It was written for their time.

References to the constitution/bill-of-rights are actually red herrings in this present discussion. Both reference what were taken by the founders (federalists and anti-federalists alike) to be pre-existing rights. Neither granted rights to individuals. Both were designed to limit government power, so as to protect these rights.

If there were no government at all, we would have the (negative) right to life. We collectively instantiate some form of government so as to (hopefully) better protect that right than we could all alone.

But, since the right to life is not granted by any document and pre-exists all forms of government, "philo" is patently incorrect in asserting that gun ownership is not an inalienable right.

In terms of the implication relation, the logic of the right to gun ownership is very tight:

right-to-life > right-to-self-defense > right-to-the-means-of-self-defense.

That final (also inalienable) right is not "unlimited," as it necessarily references defense against likely INDIVIDUAL threats. Nukes, for example, are not individual threats. Protection against WMDs is one reason why we form governments: to provide defense from collective threats.

As long as guns are the weapon of choice among criminals and terrorists, there simply is no legitimate argument against the INDIVIDUAL right to the appropriate means (namely: an individual's own gun) to INDIVIDUAL self-defense.

Arguments referencing car registration miss an important point: You can't put a car in your pocket and thereby trivially avoid "detection." Criminals cannot trivially HIDE their cars, thereby avoiding the scrutiny that would accompany a car on the road with no license plates or registration tag. So, the title-and-register scheme simply won't have any effect on criminal possession of guns. Again, this is a "common sense" idea that targets entirely the wrong demographic.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2015 - 11:05am PT
If you don't like my re-post then complain to the author of it not about me.


Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2015 - 08:29am PT
Dear America: Here's Your Gun Solution
2 hours ago | Updated 1 hour ago
Sara Benincasa Comedian; author of "DC Trip" (Adaptive Books)

I posted the byline in the post. learn to read.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Dec 3, 2015 - 11:05am PT
Congratulations on your racism. You're clearly very proud.

Racism?

Muslims are all one race?
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 3, 2015 - 01:21pm PT
Have they figured out what the right wingers did to this devout moderate Muslim to put him over the edge so far that he was forced into his murderous actions? Could it be the "holiday songs" at the party, or an image of Jesus he mistook as a cartoon of Mohammed, or could it be the transsexual surgery health benefits he was awarded with in his generous benefit package? Inquiring minds want to know.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Dec 3, 2015 - 01:58pm PT
It is always interesting to check back on these type threads to see how many times and different ways the same things can be said over and over and over again..

Thanks for giving us the feebleminded perspective.
Gary

Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
Dec 3, 2015 - 01:58pm PT
Would you mind repeating that?
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 3, 2015 - 02:07pm PT
Congratulations on your racism. You're clearly very proud.

So Farouk is a racist cus he made the right call on who did the terrible deed.

Had I been correct in my claim that it was Cartel Hitmen (which no took me up on my bet), I would have also been a racist cus they were of Mexican origin.

Another Liberal logical conclusion.


Go figure.


Carry on..... This thread is getting more hilarious by the page.


And SUSAN, hows them fingers doing?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 3, 2015 - 03:07pm PT
Carry on with your important effort....

;-)

Apparently an important effort to tell us to carry on....

;-)
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Dec 3, 2015 - 03:30pm PT
References to the constitution/bill-of-rights are actually red herrings in this present discussion

Damn striaght.
The fact that the unlawful won't follow the constitution means there is no sense to having a constitution.

Same thing with laws, right?
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 03:32pm PT
The Chief - Muslim is not a race; the word refers to being a follower of a religion.

Race refers to inherited physical characteristics of a subset of humans that distinguishes that group from another subset.

"Mexican," is a nationality, also not what is commonly referred to as race, except by bigots.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 3, 2015 - 03:38pm PT
Thank you Happiegirl for reaffirming my point as to the illogical post regarding Farouk displaying "racism" by making the Muslim claim of the perps.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 3, 2015 - 03:48pm PT
The fact that the unlawful won't follow the constitution means there is no sense to having a constitution.

Same thing with laws, right?

Intentionally obtuse.

The point of a constitution is to define and constrain a theoretically law-abiding government.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 3, 2015 - 03:54pm PT
^^^ I got it. I was just having fun with you. ;-)
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 3, 2015 - 04:04pm PT
You're ruining my fun...

I am SO, so very sorry.

But I need the help of others to get all ranted up.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Dec 3, 2015 - 04:05pm PT
Not obtuse by any means. Logical step from your conclusions.

The tenents of gun ownership are being challenged by no other then the NRA and Texas.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/11/17/1451133/-Texas-representatives-notices-war-refugees-could-buy-guns-in-Texas-duly-freaks-out

Seems the thought of a good refugee with a gun outweighs the thought of a bad refugee with a gun. Can't you guys just get more guns to offset this dilemma, more guns are better?
Where is the out cry about the slippery slope, or your no laws simce illegals will still get guns?

It might be fun to sit back watch one side devour itself over their own fears.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 3, 2015 - 04:46pm PT
Logical step from your conclusions.

Only in some alternate, logically-impossible universe in which logic as we conceive of it doesn't exist.

Just as there is no point in adopting a constitution for a government that you KNOW from the start isn't going to abide by it, there is no point in adopting legislation that you KNOW from the start that the target demographic isn't going to abide by it.

There IS a point to laws for law-abiding citizens. But gun-control laws generally are not aimed at them.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Dec 3, 2015 - 05:05pm PT
You don't like laws aimed at guns even though you have no proof nor any idea what they may or may not prevent. If it were to stop just one or maybe two of these instances a year, would they be worth it then?


BTW
Isn't the constitution just laws?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 3, 2015 - 05:36pm PT
You don't like laws aimed at guns even though you have no proof nor any idea what they may or may not prevent.

So, you've helped make on of my points already: Nobody has established what these gun-control laws might or might not ACTUALLY accomplish. We're attempting to legislate in an empirical vacuum, with wildly conflicting "data" trotted out by both "sides" in the debate.

You probably didn't read the whole thread, but in an earlier post, I talked about two principles that must be honored in any legislation that attempts to circumscribe the rights of law-abiding citizens. One of them concerns demonstrating solid causal connections between the behaviors the law attempts to prevent and the content of the law itself. Nobody has even begun to provide that sort of demonstration with gun-control laws.

If it were to stop just one or maybe two of these instances a year, would they be worth it then?

The problem here is what you mean by "it".

Many here advocate complete confiscation. Others want there to be no "assault weapons" (whatever those are). California already has the strictest gun-control laws in the nation, with the very weapons used in this latest mass-shooting already illegal. Clearly the law had zero effect on the possession and use of those weapons.

So, the struggle you face is that the possession and carrying of firearms is an inalienable right. It must be presumed, then, that law-abiding citizens retain that right. Whatever the "it" is, must honor that right.

BTW Isn't the constitution just laws?

The constitution is meta-law; it defines how laws come into being and by what authority. Again, the presumption that the government will abide by the meta-law is the very basis of the "good faith" adoption of a constitution. Without that basis in "good faith," you really have anarchy, as the government is fundamentally illegitimate.

Again, you cannot presume ANY "good faith" on the part of criminals. Murder, for example, is already illegal and bears the harshest penalties. Do you REALLY think that this latest shooting would have been prevented if the perps had thought through the applicable laws???

"Gee... I'd really like to take my AR15 and shoot up the place. Butttt, I can't! Dang, I'm not even legally allowed to HAVE the gun. I'd better turn it in. Dang, double-dang! If only there wasn't that pesky assault-weapon law, I'd murder bunches of people!"

Ridiculous.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 3, 2015 - 06:24pm PT
How do we do it, Cranksore?

Well, if there is a high probability that the victims to be are armed it would give the wack jobs pause and probably short circuit their carnage.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 3, 2015 - 06:26pm PT
Define "mass shooting".

How many mass shootings are there in a normal year? Is this a big year, or an average one for mass shootings? Or are we below average this year?
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Ontario, Canada
Dec 3, 2015 - 06:30pm PT
Well, if the identified victims to be are armed it would give the wacko jobs pause and probably short circuit their carnage.

Doesn't the US already have the most heavily armed citizenry in the 1st world? I'm thinking it's not working and if anything, makes things worse.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 3, 2015 - 06:30pm PT
Rick, I hope you will report back with your perspective if such a horrible day ever happens that a very loved one is a victim of a similar shooting.

I sincerely hope you never have to gain that perspective.