Another active shooter armed stand off in progress.

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philo

climber
Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 27, 2015 - 02:05pm PT
At a Planned Parenthood clinic. Hmm why would anyone have problems with Planned Parenthood. paging Carly Fiorina fans.


At least 4 officers, multiple civilians injured in ongoing active shooter situation at Planned Parenthood

By Jesse Paul, Jordan Steffen and John Ingold The Denver Post

Friday, Nov. 27, 2015 - 2:54 p.m.

1/5

An officer waits on the intersection of Windmill and Centennial while facing south towards the scene of a shooting November 27, 2015 in Colorado Springs, CO.
(Photo by Brent Lewis/ The Denver Post)
An officer waits on the intersection of Windmill and Centennial while facing south towards the scene of a shooting November 27, 2015 in Colorado Springs, CO. (Photo by Brent Lewis/ The Denver Post)

Shooter at Colorado Springs Planned Parenthood [PHOTOS]
‹›
COLORADO SPRINGS —At least four police officers have been shot and multiple civilians have been injured in an ongoing active shooter situation at a Colorado Springs branch of Planned Parenthood on Friday afternoon.

"This is still a very active situation," Colorado Springs Police Lt. Catherine Buckley said.

By 2:45 p.m., five people injured in the incident had been transported to Penrose Hospital in Colorado Springs, according to a hospital spokeswoman. The spokeswoman did not know the patients' condition or whether they were police officers or civilians.

Three more victims were taken to Memorial Hospital, according to a spokesman there.

At 2:15, the police department reported on Twitter that officers were "encountering gunfire" from a suspect inside the Planned Parenthood building. Around the same time, a SWAT truck sped out of the scene and an apparently injured person was unloaded onto a gurney. The truck then raced back toward the Planned Parenthood building.


The gunman has not made any demands or made any statements to officers, Buckley said. She said initial reports described his weapon as a long gun, such as a rifle.

"We do not know about this person's mentality or ideology," Buckley said.

Buckley said the first call for service came at 11:38 a.m. and came from the Planned Parenthood address. The branch is located at 3480 Centennial Blvd., just north of West Fillmore Street.

Joan Motolinia said his sister is in the clinic, and he talked to her by phone about 1:30 p.m. She was at the clinic for an appointment and was hiding under a table and was only able to talk briefly.

"She was very afraid," he said.

While she was talking, he could hear gunfire in the background and after about two minutes, his sister hung up on him.

"She was telling me to take care of her babies," he said. "I heard some shots so people were in there shooting for sure."

At a news conference at about 1:30 on Friday afternoon, Buckley said police cannot confirm where the shooter is located and said the situation is "very active." She said officers didn't yet know for sure whether there was a single shooter or multiple gunmen.

She said police have "brought all of our resources to bear" to the situation.

Earlier, Colorado Springs police Commander Kirk Wilson told media at the scene that police were having trouble getting officers to the shooting area.

"We haven't been able to get in the scene yet," he said.

Cathy Alderman, vice president of public affairs for Planned Parenthood of the Rocky Mountains, said the situation was fluid and the organization had little information to go on.

"We're monitoring the situation live like everyone else," she said. "Obviously the safety of our patients and staff is our greatest concern. We're hoping for the best."

Alderman was not sure yet if everyone associated with the clinic was safe.

"We believe people are sheltered in place, but we don't know all that for sure yet." she said.

A photo from the scene showed officers in the area hiding behind their vehicles with their weapons drawn. SWAT officers have been called to the scene.

Colorado Springs police have shut down Centennial Boulevard between Garden of the Gods Road and Fillmore Street. Some businesses in the area are being evacuated. Patrons and workers at a nearby shopping center have been told to shelter in place.

"We were looking out the window and we had an officer wave us back inside," said Brigitte Wolfe, who works at Jun Japanese Restaurant next door. "They have everything blocked off."

Wolfe said there are roughly a dozen police vehicles at the scene. She said officers have guns drawn and are facing the Planned Parenthood branch.

An employee who answered the phone at a nearby King Soopers said a few dozen customers were locked inside under police orders, but she had not seen a shooter or any other violence across the parking lot from the Planned Parenthood building.

"Everybody here is safe," she said, declining to give her name. "That's all I know, but I'm in the back right now."

This is a developing story that will be updated as more information becomes available.

Staff writers Elizabeth Hernandez and Joey Bunch contributed to this report.

Jesse Paul: 303-954-1733, jpaul@denverpost.com or @JesseAPaul

philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 27, 2015 - 02:14pm PT
Live feed from local CSprings news channel.

http://www.kktv.com/livestream?device=tablet&c=y
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Nov 27, 2015 - 02:19pm PT
Joan Motolinia said his sister is in the clinic, and he talked to her by phone about 1:30 p.m. She was at the clinic for an appointment and was hiding under a table and was only able to talk briefly.

"She was very afraid," he said.

I thought the above was interesting--who ever heard of "Joan" being a man's name?




philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 27, 2015 - 02:30pm PT
^^^ Curious as to whether there is a point to your post or not.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 27, 2015 - 02:38pm PT
Terrorism.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Nov 27, 2015 - 02:43pm PT
thought the above was interesting--who ever heard of "Joan" being a man's name?

Miró's mom.

Norton

Social climber
Nov 27, 2015 - 02:44pm PT

so what are the odds it is one older white guy who is angry as hell because he learned that abortions are sometimes performed at PP locations?

and because he so opposes the murdering of fetuses he is going to murder adults

the American Taliban in action, again

philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 27, 2015 - 02:52pm PT
Well I suppose it could be a sleeper cell of Daesh but I didn't know they hated us for our Planned Parenthood.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 27, 2015 - 03:03pm PT
Norton, my money is on not an old guy. Old guys don't do this sh#t, they convince young guys that it's worth dying or going to prison for.
Norton

Social climber
Nov 27, 2015 - 03:05pm PT
yeah, but my idea of an old guy would be like over 50 in this scenario
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 27, 2015 - 03:14pm PT
Couldn't have anything to do with the incredibly shrill and hysterical anti-guberment, take-back-america-and-the-law-in-our-own-hands rhetoric from the right. Or guns. Of course not.
Norton

Social climber
Nov 27, 2015 - 03:57pm PT
here's another one today, Locker

http://www.wlox.com/story/30614080/police-argument-over-cigarette-leads-to-murder-at-biloxi-waffle-house
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Nov 27, 2015 - 04:00pm PT
I don't recall this type of sh!t happening (as often) when I was a kid...

You had your head in the sand.


Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Nov 27, 2015 - 04:09pm PT
I don't recall this type of sh!t happening (as often) when I was a kid...



https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2015/02/10/even-more-black-people-were-lynched-in-the-u-s-than-previously-thought-study-finds/
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Nov 27, 2015 - 04:16pm PT
I think this has always been a very violent country. There was never and halcyon days of peace and goodness.

If we weren't massacring Indians, it was blacks or Irish or miners or textile workers....




The 60' had jfk, rock, mlk, Malcolm X the black panthers... All murdered.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Nov 27, 2015 - 04:19pm PT
It's important to remember that even if the shooter is a right-wing, anti-abortion, pro-life fanatic, we should never ever link those beliefs with his actions.
Remember what we've learned from Obama, who will never under circumstances find even the slightest connection between Islamic terrorists and, well, Islam. Two TOTALLY different things in his mind.

So with that in mind, it's fine to decry the actions of the shooter, but do not under any circumstances link the shooter's actions with the beliefs of the vast majority of right-wing, anti-abortion, pro-life fanatics.
The shooter has perverted the beliefs of most right-wing, anti-abortion, pro-life fanatics, who are undoubtedly appalled by his actions. (And if bunch of fanatics seem to be cheering for the shooter, well, ahem, let's not focus on that too much, we don't want to make anyone uncomfortable.)

If the above rambling makes sense to you--good, you understand Obama perfectly. If it seems a little off, go back and listen to Obama more until you get it!
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Nov 27, 2015 - 04:22pm PT
Just waiting to hear what Dump and rest of the crew especially Jeb is going to say.

So now ISIS will be no longer on the top 10, this will be #1 for the next couple of weeks.

Foxie News gave away a lot of too much info on how to blow a place up?

philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 27, 2015 - 04:23pm PT
Shooter is in custody.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/28/us/colorado-planned-parenthood-shooting.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=photo-spot-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

COLORADO SPRINGS — A gunman was taken into custody late Friday after exchanging gunfire with the police for hours inside a Planned Parenthood center here, the authorities said.

Mayor John Suthers said that the gunman was in custody but that hours of work remained to clear the crime scene, particularly to identify items that the gunman brought with him.

Lt. Catherine Buckley, a Colorado Springs police spokeswoman, suggested earlier that the gunman might have brought explosive devices with him. “The nature of the devices, at this point, we do not know,” she said. “We know the suspect brought several items with him.” She added, “We have to check them to make sure they are not any kind of improvised device.”

The siege began just before 11:30 a.m. and went on into the evening, with multiple police forces and ambulances at the scene. The lieutenant said there were an unknown number of casualties, which included at least four officers and possibly five. People in the surrounding buildings were told to shelter in place.

A Colorado Springs police spokeswoman said there may be hostages at a Planned Parenthood center where officers were exchanging gunfire with an attacker. By REUTERS on Publish Date November 27, 2015. Watch in Times Video »
The Planned Parenthood facility has frequently been a scene of protests since a series of videos secretly recorded by a conservative group showed Planned Parenthood officials discussing the use of fetal organs for research.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Nov 27, 2015 - 04:36pm PT

How about the school shootings???...

Same in the 60's

Oh, no. Not the same. In the 60's the national guard shot students at Kent State and Jackson st.

In addition, Wikipedia lists 17 school shootings In the 60's, including the Texas tower massacre which killed 17, one in Mesa Arizona which killed 5 and one in Orangeburg which killed 3.


Then there was Birmingham 16th st. Sunday school bombing with 200 people in the building.

That doesn't include the linchings which didn't make the news, or Richard Speck who killed 8 nurses in Chicago.

<edit> let's not leave out Chucky Manson & co.


C'mon, locker, wake up. You can find mass murders every decade our country has been in existence. Most were by Christians on Christians...just demographics.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 27, 2015 - 04:37pm PT
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 27, 2015 - 04:38pm PT
I'm beginning to think there must be something in the water in that part of Colorado.
overwatch

climber
Nov 27, 2015 - 05:00pm PT
Amazing he was taken into custody
WBraun

climber
Nov 27, 2015 - 05:12pm PT
Our closest biologic relatives, the chimps

So it went from active shooter to chimpanzees now .... rolls eyes ...

Never underestimate the power of the intard net ....
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Nov 27, 2015 - 05:20pm PT
Actually, it tends to be only about half the world's population that has been/seems to be wired for violence.....


Of course I'm not suggesting that ALL males are batshit crazy, itchy fingered gun-totin fools who view their environment in terms of video games and/or James Bond films..... Of course it's not so. But actually - that is an interesting thought. I wonder what percentage of men DO tend toward an overly aggressive default setting.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Nov 27, 2015 - 05:21pm PT
Every animal's violent.

Don't believe me? Go f*#k with one. See if you don't get bit.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Nov 27, 2015 - 05:56pm PT
giggling over the butterfly.....

Maybe it's just mammals[Click to View YouTube Video]
Gene

climber
Nov 27, 2015 - 06:20pm PT
Three dead.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 27, 2015 - 06:40pm PT
The crazy pronouncements of the ignorant morons that make up the repug presidential field feed unstable people and now you see the result.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Nov 27, 2015 - 06:54pm PT
Did your dad give him the Dexedrine?
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Nov 27, 2015 - 07:00pm PT
Okey dokey.


The Texas Tower Massacre
Charles Joseph Whitman was an ex-Marine who in his youth had been an Eagle Scout and an altar boy. At the age of 25 he stabbed to death his wife and his much loved Mother. He then calmly made his way to the observation tower atop the 27 story Administration Building of the University of Texas in Austin where he barricaded himself in. From that panoramic view above the beautiful tree-shaded lawns of the 232 acre campushe shot to death 14 people and wounded another 31.
That incident took place on the 1st August, 1966. The ramifications and significance of that brief period of destructive madness echo down through the passage of time and haunt us to this day.
The massacre was world news. In 1966 when it happened it was inexplicable and evoked a bewildered response. Newspaper accounts of the incident were read by hushed groups. The media ran with the story for weeks. The event was beyond rational analysis. The society that we were back in the sixties just could not think with such an unprecedented act of senseless violence.
Whitman was eventually gunned down by two brave police officers who broke through the barricade protecting the crazed gunman. Many equally brave private citizens grabbed hunting rifles from their vehicles and gave covering fire for the police to make their assault. Due to the rapid reaction of the police and citizens, the whole affair from the firing of Whitman’s first shot to the final burst of police gunfire that killed him, was over in one hour and thirty six minutes.
The ‘Texas Tower Massacre’ was an unprecedented event that disturbed the psyche of the whole western world. Terrible acts of violence were not of course unknown to history, but prior to 1966 violence was for a reason. The reason may have been love, jealousy, lust, hate, revenge, greed, race or whatever, but always there was a reason. The reasons were always lacking in logic to a more rational person, but there was a ‘reason’ why the perpetrator did what he or she did. The perpetrator could justify their actions. The resultant violence was contained within the parameter of that line of ‘reasoning’. Whitman’s violence was different, it was random. It was not a violence that was brought about for a reason. It was death and destruction as an end in itself. Whitman himself could find no reason for what he was about to do.
He left a sad suicide note explaining that he was deeply troubled by strange and violent thoughts and that he had terrible headaches. It gave no hint of an explanation for his actions. The suicide note made it clear that Whitman had no idea why he felt compelled to do something that he acknowledged was irrational.
The police report showed that at the time of his death Whitman was carrying ‘some pills’. From Whitman’s personal diary (‘Daily Record of C. J. Whitman’) we know that these pills were Dexedrine which was one of the very first of psychiatry’s mass-marketed drugs. Dexedrine has properties very similar to methamphetamine. It can cause psychosis and it can also cause headaches. Whitman had been to see a psychiatrist sometime before the shooting because he was feeling depressed by his home situation.
In the age of innocence that was 1966 we never dreamt that a time would come when ‘inexplicable’ mass shootings of civilians would be so commonplace that they would be in and out of the news within a few days. Then it got worse. In a bid by pharmaceutical companies to improve market penetration psychiatric drugs were promoted into schools. The excuse was that they were needed in order to handle a plethora of newly discovered (invented) childhood ailments. Young children in playgrounds and classrooms began to be gunned down by equally young and utterly drug-deranged classmates.
The perpetrators of these mass random killings have all been on psychiatric drugs… or desperately trying to get off them. As psychiatric drugs have spread around the world, so the inevitable shootings and violence and tragic loss of life spreads with them. The U.S. is no longer the sole province of these senseless mass killings.
The emergence of mass random killings was coincident in both time and place with the advent of psychiatric drugs. Nothing else but psychiatry’s mind-bending drugs could cause a derangement such as would be required to reduce a person to the inhuman state where he or she could kill indiscriminately and casually both loved ones and complete strangers. There are no recordings of such incidents, none whatsoever, prior to the introduction of psychiatric drugs.
How many have died since Charles Whitman’s inaugural psychiatric drug rampage? How many more have to die? The next time that you hear of a mass shooting check the following day’s newspapers. There will be a line down the bottom of the article mentioning that the killer had been taking psychiatric ‘medication’. The article will be accompanied by a psycho-babble quote from a psychiatric spokesperson. The whole psychiatric industry goes into well rehearsed, disinformation mode when these events happen.
Pharmaceutical companies and prescribing psychiatrists have not had much to worry about in the past. Next week marks the 42nd anniversary of the Texas Tower Massacre. Charles Whitman’s inaugural psychiatric drug rampage on the 1st August, 1966 signalled the arrival of the brave new world of psychiatric ‘medication’. Despite the efforts of some very determined and educated groups and private individuals, many of them victims of psychiatric drugs who understand full well what is causing these shootings, no action has been taken other than to place warning labels on the pill bottles. That is akin to handing out cluster bombs marked ‘Use With Care’.
A small brain tumour was found at Whitman’s autopsy. Pathologist Coleman de Chenar said that the tumour was “certainly not the cause of the headaches” and “could not have had any influence on his psychic behaviour”. Despite that pronouncement it was posited that somehow it was the tumour which had caused Whitman’s behaviour. The plausibility of that theory depended solely on the basis that nothing else within the range of our experience presented itself. That is no longer true, in fact it is now either naive or deliberately deceptive. The pathologist was entirely correct.
Charles Whitman was by no means the first person in the world to have a brain tumour, he was however amongst the first generation of the public to take psychiatric drugs. We recognize his symptoms now as acknowledged side effects of psychiatric drug medications.
The lack of gun control is also sometimes cited as the reason for mass shootings. It is prudent to remember that it was the public who, by seizing hunting rifles from their pick-ups, as soon as the bizarre ‘Texas Tower’ circumstances became clear, were a crucial part of the response that stopped Whitman’s rampage so quickly. That covering fire from the public, requested by the quick thinking police, ensured that the killings virtually stopped at that point. The public being armed was seen as an asset by those police, not as a threat. The police were not carrying weapons that could cover the necessary distance to the top of the tower.
Whether or not we need the public’s guns controlled is not a subject for this article; the plain and obvious fact that we need psychiatry controlled most certainly is. Until we make psychiatry and pharmaceutical companies legally and financially responsible for the results of the insane marketing and peddling of these drugs, then be prepared for more random mass shootings.
A whole generation of journalists, almost without exception, saw fit to ignore the blatant problems associated with psychiatric drug usage. Some are now blinking in the sunlight of truth with recent articles showing a true understanding of the problem is starting to emerge.
To be fair, it has not been easy without a study of the abundant and complex information to be appraised of the real situation. Couple that with the bottomless pit of pharmaceutical company largesse and you have the whole problem in a nutshell.
The Texas Tower Massacre marked our civilisation’s unknowing rite of passage into a new era of psychiatric induced insanity. Forty two years and untold deaths later, enough is enough. It must finally stop, otherwise we are all mad.
Philip Barton
26th July, 2008
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Nov 27, 2015 - 07:07pm PT
The crazy pronouncements of the ignorant morons...

Jim, I think that if you take your statement to its logical conclusion you’ll have to rescind the 1st amendment. Would you censor political figures because in your eye they are inciting violence? When a monster like this guy does something which is incomprehensible to the rest of us it’s questionable to try to make political hay out of what might have been his motivations. This comes up with most of these acts, and usually doesn’t turn out to be true (i.e. Loughner shooting Congresswoman Giffords.) It’s a safe assumption that today’s shooter felt like some superhero saving babies (or some such bizarre thing,) but sadly that sentiment lives deeply in many aspects of our culture.

The Republican candidates are all outspoken on abortion (although Trump seems to see that it’s a third rail.) I don’t agree with any of them on this and I think it will hurt them in 2016. Nonetheless they have the right to express their points of view.

An advantage to capturing the guy alive is that we at least have a chance of learning what makes him tick. Of course that will be kept secret.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 27, 2015 - 07:19pm PT
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Nov 27, 2015 - 08:09pm PT
Looks like a run of the mill, rightwing domestic terrorist.

Bank robbery? Too funny.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Nov 27, 2015 - 09:04pm PT
RFK's words are profound, and stand the test of time. One of the things that makes them universally appealing is that he does not aim his remarks at any individuals or group of people. He speaks about basic principles.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 27, 2015 - 09:56pm PT
Best wishes, and condolences to the brave Police Officers, that responded and were injured or killed, and their families & friends.

My condolences to the families & friends of the folks that died or were injured in this horrible attack.
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Nov 27, 2015 - 09:56pm PT
I'm beginning to think there must be something in the water in that part of Colorado.




That ain't no tall drink of Simply Orange.




As Jim points out, when the ostensible leaders of the nation lead off with bigoted, racist hate speech, the crankloons foam at the mouth and load up. A leader, by definition, influences the behavior of others.

I'd like to see the victims' families sue Fiorina as an unindicted co-conspirator. It is completely irresponsible, and negligent for her to disseminate that false video of Planned Parenthood engaged in the harvesting of fetus brains. That is akin to shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater - not protected by free speech doctrine.

They might not win the lawsuit, but it would send a message to other would-be inciters of violence.


10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired Climber
Nov 27, 2015 - 10:15pm PT

Every animal's violent.

Except humans are the only species that kill because of greed, and hate.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Nov 27, 2015 - 11:13pm PT
Except humans are the only species that kill because of greed, and hate.

You sure?
ß Î Ř T Ç H

Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
Nov 27, 2015 - 11:20pm PT
snor-gasm
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Nov 27, 2015 - 11:41pm PT

Every animal's violent.


Except humans are the only species that kill because of greed, and hate.

Nope... chimps sometimes kill for giggles.

Big cats frequently kill stuff just because.... maybe for giggles.

Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 05:43am PT
Well, the mug shot of the suspected murderer shows a person who looks (IMO) like a bit of a crankloon. But then, walking down any sidewalk street I see people with similar looks in their eye almost daily.

Also, I apologize for the tangential post earlier. It was disrespectful of those affected by the horror. What a terrible thing to have happen any day of the year, but the holiday season is supposed to be a time of year where we marvel in the wonder of love for others. Very sad that for so many people this time of year will forever bring memories of such sadness.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 07:10am PT
The perp's mug shot is a doozie.
Looks just like a radical Muslim extremist Syrian refugee.
Just look at that beard.
Or a climate change denier.
Just look at that hair.
Or a ST conservative on a bender.
Just look at those eyes.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 28, 2015 - 07:20am PT
He actually looks like another Colorado Springs radical evangelical minister just busted for child porn.
He'll have Carly Fiorina as a dearh row pen pal.....they have a lot in common.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 07:27am PT
Whether it was the earlier episode of Caribou Barbie with her "don't retreat reload" comments and "bullseye" graphics on targeted Congressional districts that contributed to the Gabby Gifford shooting or Carly Fiorina's frothing lie fest about the brain harvesters at PP that motivated this sociopath the instigators will not be held accountable for their deplorable hate speech.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 07:45am PT
WTF got puberty?

Hey WTF here is a priceless example of someone who's focus on a single issue - in this case, gun control - causes them to lose perspective and resort to blind inane assumptions.


Oct 6, 2015 - 12:41pm PT


Thank you madbolter but it's been pointed out time after time that philo is never going to put forth intellectual thoughts.
That is pretty funny.


Know that those of us who actually see the issues ignore morons like philo and continue to address the issues with carefully thought out solutions and not left wing propaganda talking points that are meant to distract you with vitriolic bs instead of rational solutions.
OK so where is your careful thoughts on solutions?



giving up my rights to arms is not on the table.
What if new regulations deem you legally unfit for gun ownership?




Philo can give his up all he wants that's the nwo he seeks
Quite an ignorant assumption. What else ya got in her brain trust?
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 08:06am PT
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 08:06am PT
Moving on.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 08:14am PT
scurrying out like clockwork Kochroaches.

Of course most of us know if the shooter had been a brown person or a Muslim this thread would be soooooo relevant to these same Kochroaches
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 08:31am PT
overwatch

climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 08:33am PT
He definitely has the stare
Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
Nov 28, 2015 - 08:34am PT
Great to have you back Philo . . . disregard your detractors if you can.

Violence is never a solution as it only perpetuates the problem.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 08:45am PT
RIP

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 28, 2015 - 08:51am PT
Meth tweaker maybe, Trump supporter....I'd bet on it.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 09:05am PT
I'd bet he didn't vote for Obama.
SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
Nov 28, 2015 - 09:10am PT
Well at least he wasn't trying to sell cigarettes, or walking on a highway with a knife, robbing a store, or playing with a toy gun. White guys are tough. No doubt about it. They can take out a God fearing, huge hearted family man and live to tell about it.

Susan

Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Nov 28, 2015 - 09:45am PT
jonnyrig-

You're way out of line.

Have you looked up the definition of forum lately?

Harsh, raw political debate does not tear at the fabric of society. On the contrary, honest debate amongst open minded people, on a nonviolent medium, IS part of the fabric of Democracy.

Has your family ever argued? Do you find it productive to launch such caustic personal attacks on them?

I don't visit this forum to exclusively read about climbing, pat backs and sing kumbaya. I don't agree with Chief and VBaun often, but I enjoy their perspective and I know the worst they can do with their views is cast one vote.

I've read the same fuked up style of personal attack on Chief and others, so this style of engagement doesn't really boil down to politics- its more about lack of personal control and immaturity.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Nov 28, 2015 - 09:50am PT
Did jonnyrig delete his post?

That always happens. I rant about air...
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 09:51am PT
Annonymous cowards have mastered the back delete.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 11:13am PT
Well you don't know Donini do you DipShit!

Maybe you should look into a dictionary and learn what words really mean.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 11:23am PT
No you are a DipShit! because you bandy inane comments with words you don't grasp.
Yes he said that but only someone mirroring would come to the conclusion you did.


You and the other "conservatives" always cry about a non-existant liberal lock step as the reason folks call you and others out. Say stupid stuff and expect to be seen and treated as stupid.
And the irony is that the nonsence that burbles out of your pieholes is a lockstep regurgitation of FOX talking points. You are Kochpuppets.


In light of the xenophobic, misoginistic hate speech that spews forth from the Donald, If people actually consider tRump a serious Presidential candidate then they can not themselves expect to be taking seriously.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 11:29am PT
That's your mirrored opinion.

And since you've never actually interacted with me in any substantive way it was a pretty DipShit! opinion.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 11:45am PT
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Nov 28, 2015 - 12:09pm PT
If people actually consider tRump a serious Presidential canidate then they can not themselves expect to be taking seriously.

"canidate" [sic]?

Seriously? And this from a guy bashing on others about "using words correctly"? This from an era in which browsers themselves underline misspelled words in red?

It is to laugh. Pot calling kettle.

And Philo is one that takes the Hillabeast seriously, while bagging on people that are just desperately looking for ANY candidate that is not establishment and utterly owned by the big corporations. So, for him, wanting the "change" that the Obumbalator never delivered means that you are not to be taken seriously as a human being.

Yup, that's the level of "thinking" around here.

You're a very angry and violent person to interact with.

So true. You've been more charitable than most about it, but even you are finally driven to declare the obvious truth.

That's your mirrored opinion.

I have no idea what that means. Perhaps you don't have the way with words that you imagine you do.

And since you've never actually interacted with me in any substantive way

What bar would one have to get over to have any legitimate right to have any opinions about your online "persona"?

it was a pretty DipShit! opinion.

So says... who? God?

Some other epistemically-ideal observer?

No, really... just in your....

Wait for it....







Opinion.

We all have 'em, and we all have the right to express 'em. Some are less stinky than others.

Why don't you back off just enough to allow for people not sharing yours to be fully and intelligently human, and thus not worthy of continual insults?
jonnyrig

climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 12:10pm PT
philo

climber

Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 09:51am PT
Annonymous cowards have mastered the back delete.

You can call me whatever you like. I am not anonymous.
I'm simply choosing to disengage with you phil. There's no point to it.
Have a nice day.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Nov 28, 2015 - 12:11pm PT
Angry White Men

"Philo," you seriously scare me far more than virtually anybody else on the Taco Stand.

Are YOU armed?

Edit: Please explain how your graphic is not flagrantly racist and hate speech.

Since I believe you are too biased to see it, let's imagine a correlative showing a non-representative subset of black criminals (take your pic; plenty enough have been in the news). Now, in THAT graphic, the caption reads: "Angry Black Men. America's Domestic Terrorists. Black gangbangers enable, arm, and protect them, while the liberal left media inspires, encourages, and brainwashes them."

How would you like THAT graphic, "philo"? Would THAT one be racist?

I know it's hard for you to grasp, but our culture engages in flagrant racism against whites as well. The pendulum swings both ways, and the solution to racism is to point it out with disapproval WHICHEVER way the pendulum is swinging at the moment.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 12:20pm PT
Same ol gang of hypocrites, same ol disingenuous drivel.
They are all upset because I made fun of gun nutz and made them cry.

Children, children, children maybe you should go suckle your bullets.
c wilmot

climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 12:29pm PT
I have always found it odd that some white males hate all other white males and go to the point of being openly racist against what they themselves are.


madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Nov 28, 2015 - 12:29pm PT
because I made fun of gun nutz and made them cry

Pretty full of yourself.

You don't (and can't) make me cry. You make me disgusted.

You destroy entire threads and then fancy yourself a "winner."

You live, eat, and breathe the ability to produce vile insults.

Yup, like jonnyrig, I'm done with this latest attempt to reason with you.

I shouldn't have gotten suckered into responding to your swirling vortex of filth. My mistake.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 12:30pm PT
So you belive facts and truth are vile eh?

Oh yes it's just so hard being white in America.

I believe you have me confused with thechief.
Reason with me? Are you kidding? Please indicate one reasonable thing you've ever directed towards me.
"Am I armed?" What a question. are you frightened?
Perhaps you shouldn't bring blind dogma to an intellectual argument.
Get over yourself.

philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 12:46pm PT
Then you shouldn't take what I or Donini said personally.
c wilmot

climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 12:46pm PT
Its about old white men wanting to feel above other people by generalizing all other white men as bad while seeing themselves as perfect.

Nothing new....
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Nov 28, 2015 - 12:53pm PT
Left wing extremist ranters. Intolerant, racist, xenophobic, bigots. Fits most of you to a T. You are what you pronounce others to be. What a waste.

philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 01:06pm PT
No worries Locker. I actually have good reading comprehension and understood what you were saying. And thanks for your support.

It's amusing to hear what the "blinders on" set imagines me to be.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 01:12pm PT
Cheers!
And reminisce about the good ol back in the daze days when men were men and sheep looked better.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 01:26pm PT
All too true.

By the way the shirts reads "I'm not disturbing the peace, I'm disturbing the war."

So dangerous, so extreme.

Just not extreme enough for the X-treme 3 foot runouts at the gym.
LOL!
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Nov 28, 2015 - 01:34pm PT
People killing other people for killing other people for killing other people.

Stupid mental speculators speculating about stupid mental speculators speculating about stupid mental speculators.

Maybe some of our evolved psychological tendencies, which worked so advantageously for our evolutionary ancestors in their evolutionary environment are not working so well for us today in our environment.

Or maybe we do have this whole reality thing figured out :-) When I ask myself really sincerely if I'm right and listen really hard I can hear myself telling myself that I'm right, so I believe myself. It's worked so far.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Nov 28, 2015 - 01:42pm PT
Spectreman is no wuss. This I can confirm. We may not agree on some things (true about everyone here), but he's been reasonable in his statements and definitely can climb. Outside. Old School.

Others on this thread have not been so reasonable in their postings in my opinion (and it's worth exactly what you paid for it).

Carry on...
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Nov 28, 2015 - 01:53pm PT
^ I'm sure he'd consider climbing in the gym with you too Locker. :) God knows that is where I spend most of my climbing these days given other obligations. I know some believe that makes me less than human, but oh well, I'll have to live with that painful knowledge. :)
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Nov 28, 2015 - 01:54pm PT
"This I can confirm."...


I take it you are related to Lorenzo???...

You didn't know my full real name is Callorenzoe?
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 02:04pm PT
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Nov 28, 2015 - 02:19pm PT
What? Licking the gym holds are a) tasty (mmmm salt), and b) encourage the development of a very strong immune system.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Nov 28, 2015 - 02:37pm PT
^ You just don't want to snag your satin robe on the rad stalactite holds on the bitchen' over-hanging roof feature.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 03:43pm PT
Sounds like Schizophrenia according to this news piece: http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/gunman-custody-attack-planned-parenthood-clinic-35458825
Hood said that Dear rarely talked to them, and when he did, he tended to offer unsolicited advice such as recommending that Hood put a metal roof on his house so the U.S. government couldn't spy on him.
Neighbors who lived beside Dear's former South Carolina home say he hid food in the woods as if he was a survivalist
Dear also lived part of the time in a cabin with no electricity or running water in Black Mountain, North Carolina. He kept mostly to himself, his neighbors said. When he did talk, it was a rambling combination of a number of topics that didn't make sense.

Tangentially...Abut 15 miles away from where I currently am, in Asheville.


It's very difficult. An ill person needs help to manage, if they cannot on their own. There is a faction of thinkers who are talking about somehow corralling the mentally ill person's rights, as a way to reduce potential episodes such as what this thread is, or originally as, about. It's not possible. Mental illness is pervasive and often fluid.

One thing I do wonder though, if the suspect does have Schizophrenia, and if the many (white, male, recent) mass murders also did - is this targeting of groups a recent thing(for Schizophrenics). If so, could it be possible if they are "getting direction" through the hate-mongering our media/politicians have espoused. THAT bears thinking about.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 03:53pm PT
There is a likely connection but I'd contend that hate media is the nexus.
Norton

Social climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 04:06pm PT
The gunman suspected of storming a Planned Parenthood clinic and killing a police officer and two others told the officers who arrested him “no more baby parts,’’ after being taken into custody, according to a law enforcement official.


The attack on the clinic was “definitely politically motivated,’’ the official — who has been briefed on the investigation and spoke on condition of anonymity because it is still unfolding — told The Washington Post. NBC News, which first reported the comment attributed to suspect Robert Lewis Dear, said Dear also mentioned President Obama in a range of statements to investigators that left unclear his precise motivation in targeting the clinic.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2015/11/28/investigators-search-for-motive-in-planned-parenthood-shooting-that-left-three-dead/
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 28, 2015 - 04:43pm PT
Dude's another Atlanta Bomber/Unabomber, same diseased mind.

I haven't perused the entire thread to see if it came up, better uses of my time, but it's noteworthy that the cop he killed was also a pastor and vocally pro life.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 04:45pm PT
Oh Burchie you're adorable, you really think people would care to spend time with you. Isn't that precious.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 04:54pm PT
New movie idea.
Honey I shrunk the Dick.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 05:10pm PT
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 05:14pm PT
That's literally a list of all the things Americans are traditionally afraid of. Though you forgot black people. That should be at the top of the list.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 05:16pm PT
It also doesn't list science and other boogy men.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 05:22pm PT
Only in the same sense that it was noteworthy that all victims wore different underwear.
In other words its not.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 05:34pm PT
Potatohead why should it concern you how another spends their time? Are you the type who complains about people taking selfies? As if there is anything wrong with it. Why is this an issue you feel compelled to engage in? Have you nothing better to do with your time?


I can check-in once-a-week and its the same'ol desperate 6-8 peeps on this site. Really sad.
So why am I the one you feel a need to parent?


You are obsessed with anger, misery, and hate.
Pretty bold ASSumption about someone you do not know. I am hardly any of those things.

Perhaps you'd be better off tending to your own home rather than telling others how to decorate theirs.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 05:41pm PT
Oh Tradhog get your dick out of your ass!
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 05:49pm PT
You'd like my Brother he is a hateful narcissist like you.

Your pathetic assumptions about my world expose the weakness in your own life.
John M

climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 06:05pm PT
Philo says …..be an adult, just ignore what you don't like..

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John M

climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 06:15pm PT
Philo says if one doesn't like a poster or post, then be an adult and just ignore it.

So be an adult and just ignore my post.. Easy huh..
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Nov 28, 2015 - 06:16pm PT
Amazing how a crazy guy killing three people inspires such division here.

As if there's a thing anyone could do about it....

Such emotional hand-wringing.

philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 06:20pm PT
Well Fear what about prohibiting a man like this access to guns as a start?



Saturday 6:00 p.m. UPDATE

Multiple national news outlets reported Saturday evening that suspected Colorado Springs Planned Parenthood shooter Robert Lewis Dear told investigators "no more baby parts," appearing to allude to a controversy surrounding undercover videos released by anti-abortion activists about Planned Parenthood. The reports cite unnamed law enforcement sources.

In the videos, released this summer, officials with the nonprofit discussed their practice of providing fetal tissue taken during abortions for research.

Saturday 4:00 p.m. UPDATE

Three additional law enforcement officers were injured Friday after an active shooter and hours-long standoff in Colorado Springs, officials said Saturday afternoon.

Related:Colorado Springs shooting suspect lived solitary, mysterious life
In total, eight law enforcement officers were injured in the shooting, in addition to the killing of University of Colorado at Colorado Springs police Officer Garrett Swasey, according to a news release from agencies investigating the incident.

Five officers had gunshot wounds. Four were from the Colorado Springs Police Department and one was with the El Paso County Sheriff's Office. Three more CSPD officers were injured, but did not have gunshot wounds, the release said. Authorities did not disclose the nature of the officers' injuries.

All are in good condition and expected to recover.

A spokesman for Penrose-St. Francis Hospital said three law enforcement officers were in the hospital as of Saturday afternoon.

Four civilians were taken to local hospitals with gunshot wounds. They are all in good condition, the release said.

Two civilians were killed. Their names will not be released until autopsies are completed by the El Paso County Coroner's Office and next of kin are notified - possibly Monday - the release said.

A BearCat armored vehicle was used to enter the Planned Parenthood building, 3480 Centennial Blvd., during the chaos Friday, the authorities said.

That vehicle helped take injured, and uninjured, victims from the Planned Parenthood building. An additional 24 people were evacuated from the Planned Parenthood building. They were not harmed, the release said.

Another 300 people were sheltered in the King Soopers grocery store and nearby businesses during the standoff, which began after an active shooter was reported at 11:38 a.m. Friday.

Colorado Springs police officers responded before requesting help. More than five hours later, Robert Lewis Dear was taken into custody.

The Colorado Springs Police Department, the El Paso County Sheriff's Office, the University of Colorado at Colorado Springs Police Department, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, the Colorado Bureau of Investigation and the Federal Bureau of Investigation are investigating the incident.

-

Contact Stephen Hobbs: 636-0275

Twitter @bystephenhobbs
c wilmot

climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 06:25pm PT
Meanwhile these types of killings go on every day in inner cities across the US. The difference? The victims are black.... and so are the perps.....

How come none of you care about THAT?
John M

climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 06:30pm PT
Locker, remember that dude who posted big long sections of the bible? Remember how people ignored that. LOL.. maybe I will try that. That should get people ignoring
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 06:30pm PT
c.wilmot where do you get off assuming noone cares about these deaths.
Why do you suppose some of us are willing to suffer the childish slings and arrows of the 2nd Ammendment misconstruers?


John M get back to us when puberty kicks in.
jonnyrig

climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 06:37pm PT
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/your-online-secrets/201409/internet-trolls-are-narcissists-psychopaths-and-sadists

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3480687/
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 06:54pm PT

"Prey we never meet in person"...

Why's that SpudButt?
Could it be that actually meeting someone would challenge your pre-conceived and biased assumptions.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Nov 28, 2015 - 06:59pm PT
potatoHead = SkipT

Yes, I hope we never meet

some people have said such terrible things, that they would need a good pummeling when they finally come out of their troll cave.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 07:01pm PT
Yes we knew. He is still all panty twisted having gotten the boot for acting like he is now.
Children learn slowly sometimes.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 07:08pm PT
Why do you care SpudButt?
What skin is it off your O-ring?
Why do you choose to waste your oh so precious time here if it is so terribly borish?
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Nov 28, 2015 - 07:40pm PT
Let's make everyone happy.

Typical Canadian...
zBrown

Ice climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 07:41pm PT
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 07:42pm PT
First, though it's already been mentioned ad-nauseum, this is not a "climbing" forum it is a "climber's" forum.
Secondly you do care which is why you stalk me. You really should be embarrased to be so juvenile.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 07:47pm PT
PTSD is such a tragedy in cases like this.
Norton

Social climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 07:53pm PT
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 08:01pm PT
Dooder you're just like Monty Python's Black Knight.




Or is that your natural height?
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 08:18pm PT
washingtonpost.com

Did ‘whiteness’ save the life of the alleged Planned Parenthood shooter?

By Peter Holley November 28 at 3:53 PM
After Dylan Roof allegedly executed nine worshipers in a historic black church in Charleston, S.C., in June, police arrested the 19-year-old without incident, bought him a hamburger and later described the white supremacist as “quiet” and “calm.”

His peaceful apprehension echoed the arrests white mass murderers like Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh and Aurora, Colo., theater shooter James Holmes, both of whom ended up alive and in handcuffs after carrying out mass slaughters.

Months before Roof’s arrest, meanwhile, widely circulated videos captured 12-year-old Tamir Rice and 22-year-old John Crawford III being shot and killed by police within seconds of authorities arriving on scene.

[Investigators search for motive in Planned Parenthood shooting that left three dead]

At the time they were shot by police officers, both individuals were playfully holding fake weapons, and neither had harmed a single person. Both individuals were not only young, innocent and black — they were also dead by the time the public learned their names.

For some observers, the humane treatment that Roof, Holmes and McVeigh received from authorities versus the split-second executions of Rice and Crawford, highlights a disturbing contrast in how law enforcement treats suspects depending on their race. During moments of alleged crisis, critics maintain, police not only perceive white suspects versus black ones differently, but may also perceive the existence of a crisis differently.

That disturbing contrast resurfaced again this week after two incidents that ended up fatefully sandwiched together. The first was a shocking video — shot more than a year ago — showing Chicago police officer Jason Van Dyke fatally shooting Laquan McDonald 16 times, suddenly and without warning, while the 17-year-old appeared to veer away from police. Van Dyke has been charged with first-degree murder in the shooting.

Days later, photos of Robert Lewis Dear, handcuffed and calm, emerged after the 57-year-old stormed a Planned Parenthood clinic in Colorado Springs, Colo., killing three people, including a police officer.

On social media that striking juxtaposition — one an alleged killer, alive and well, the other a teenager, innocent, but dead — produced outrage.




Using the hashtag #WhiteTerrorism, the tweets argue that attacks by right-wing groups in America account for a greater share of violence and domestic terrorism than attacks by Muslim extremists.

According to a study released in June by the New America Foundation and cited by Global Post:

Almost twice as many people have died in attacks by right-wing groups in America than have died in attacks by Muslim extremists. Of the 26 attacks since 9/11 that the group defined as terror, 19 were carried out by non-Muslims. Yet there are no white Americans languishing inside the prison camp at Guantanamo Bay. And there are no drones dropping bombs on gatherings of military-age males in the country’s lawless border regions.

Mark Potok, senior fellow at the Southern Poverty Law Center, told CNN that some estimate the number of people “involved in some way with sovereign citizen extremism” as high 300,000 people, with around 100,000 people forming the heart of the movement.

Most Read
1
‘No more baby parts,’ suspect in attack at Colo. Planned Parenthood clinic told official
2
Alleged Colorado gunman was adrift and alienated
3
Source: Colorado suspect politically motivated, said ‘no more baby parts’ after attacking Planned Parenthood

fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Nov 28, 2015 - 08:18pm PT
Meanwhile these types of killings go on every day in inner cities across the US. The difference? The victims are black.... and so are the perps.....

How come none of you care about THAT?

Because the hand-wringers aren't good with critical thinking. They respond emotionally to what they're spoonfed on the teevee. And the scum in our legislatures know that and immediately attempt to exploit that temporary blindness.

And I'm not talking left or right or whatever political nonsense is the panic du jour. You can just as easily spin up the right to wantonly bomb brown people with "Islamic Terrorism" as you can spin up the left with "Scary black icky guns killing women and children".

It works every time.... simply amazing. But it is what it is I fear...



The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 28, 2015 - 08:24pm PT
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 08:28pm PT
Any comment about this?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Nov 28, 2015 - 08:31pm PT
Drinking Windex again Cosmic...?
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 28, 2015 - 08:48pm PT
Any comment about this?


BFD. They'll just get their "Guns" the same place these dudes got em...


NEWS
2 men charged with murder in brutal rape and killing of pastor's pregnant wife...

Chicago man arrested, charged in 9-year-old Tyshawn Lee’s execution-style slaying...
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Nov 28, 2015 - 09:06pm PT
Tyshawn allegedly lured the kid , who was shooting baskets , into an alley and executed him to get back at his father , a rival gang member...
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 28, 2015 - 09:17pm PT
I'm curious to know what DOJ or FBI "BGC's" them "Thugs" amongst the other tens of thousands of shooting thugs this year alone in the US, went through in order to acquire their, guns?

Any comment Philo?

Hint: None. Zero. Zilch. No need for such a thing where they get their guns.


Amazing how the POTUS made absolutely NO reference, nor has he ever, to either one of these latest horrific killings that just keep happening daily.

Any comment, Philo?
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 09:23pm PT
Unless you think the gang thugs are smelting their own gun metal you must acknowledge that all these "illegal" guns started off as "legal" guns.
The illegal gun trade hemmoraging in this country can be stemmed.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 28, 2015 - 09:28pm PT
Ah, well, most of their guns are NOT manu'd in the US, Philo. The Thugs weapon of choice these days are made in Sweden, So Africa, China or Russia and is nick named the "Chopper". In most cases they get into the US via the black market by way of the, wait, here it comes, the Mexican Cartel.


The illegal gun trade hemmoraging in this country can be stemmed.

Really.... How? The same way the heroin illegal drug trade has been, stemmed?
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Nov 28, 2015 - 09:52pm PT
Demand-side problems are NEVER solved with promises of false supply-side solutions.

Ever.

The premise that you can fix broken human behavior with stuff or a lack of stuff is a fallacy.

However, governments have always fooled the sheep into thinking otherwise. And plenty money is wasted on those supply-side fallacies.... An industry of sorts.






Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Nov 28, 2015 - 10:01pm PT

Nov 28, 2015 - 09:28pm PT


The illegal gun trade hemmoraging in this country can be stemmed.

Really.... How? The same way the heroin illegal drug trade has been, stemmed?

Ronny Rayguns and Ollie North gave us a pretty good blueprint for how governments can monopolize both industries to their ends...
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 28, 2015 - 10:10pm PT
Sorry Lorenzo.

The Maxican Cartel gun running business has been around a lot longer than Reygun and North ever could have been. And the quantity is 1000 times greater than either of the above could have ever sold to Iran.

Hell, even the current Fast and Furious DOJ has been at this illegal gun trade antics.

But of course, them facts are not, shhhssssh, supposed to be talked about.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2015 - 12:03am PT


To all "pro life" activists who would like to distance themselves from the "lone", "troubled", "isolated" man who terrorized Planned Parenthood staff and patients yesterday, I submit that this is but the latest attack that is part of a long history of "pro life" terrorism. Don't like the word "terrorism"? At what point does the term apply? Is it with death threat #500?

How many bombings would it take before we would call this "terrorism" directed at any other business? Seriously, how many of you (besides my PP colleagues) go to work every day knowing you and your customers are going to be harassed and threatened to the extent Planned Parenthood staff and patients are? (And to be clear, the stats presented here do not include the daily harassment in emails, on the phone, and in person.)

It took only a couple of anthrax letters directed at Congress before everyone clearly understood the acts as terrorist. Why, after 655 anthrax threats directed at abortion and family planning providers, are we still unable to define terrorism as it is?
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Nov 29, 2015 - 04:27am PT
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Nov 29, 2015 - 05:00am PT
Chief posted
Really.... How? The same way the heroin illegal drug trade has been, stemmed?

Heroin isn't available legally. Guns are. Heroin is the end product and it is consumed. Guns are not consumed, they are possessed and used. Require registration for guns and then hold the last person who registered the gun responsible as an accomplice in whatever crime was committed with the gun. Require background checks and registration any time the gun changes hands. If your gun is lost/stolen and you report it as such you won't be held responsible. This obviously won't stop someone who legally purchased a gun from using it in a crime but we appear to have accepted as a culture that tens of thousands of people dying to guns every year is just what it means to be the good 'ol US of A.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Nov 29, 2015 - 05:07am PT
The pen IS mightier than the sword, because the "the pen" (ideas spread around by whatever media) is what motivates and "justifies" the sword and the gun of oppression.

It's not just "radical Islam" and "radical Christianity" that is at fault.

WHENEVER a group of people use "the pen" to spread oppressive ideas and then become so enthralled with their "pens" that they escalate to "the gun" to ENFORCE their will opposing the natural rights of others--then you have tyranny.

The great irony is that many of you on this thread are so enthralled with your "pens" that you strive to band together to strip people of their right to self-defense. And YOU WILL (if you can) use the power of the GUN to enforce your wishes, because your own anti-gun legislation has no FORCE without the power of the GUN. So, you are hung on your own petard and don't even see it. As long as the GUN is used as YOU see fit and by proxies of YOUR choosing, it's a good gun. But people that simply don't agree with you should NOT have guns.

This nation was NOT founded on your principles or by people like you. And the FEW incidents you use as "justification" for your "principles" are in fact non-sequiturs.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Nov 29, 2015 - 05:15am PT
we appear to have accepted as a culture that tens of thousands of people dying to guns every year is just what it means to be the good 'ol US of A.

Nope! I, for one, don't "accept" it in YOUR terms.

I, for one, recognize the FACTS. And the FACTS are that if you take away black-on-black crime, gangland crime, drug-related crime (yeah, that "war on drugs" has been a real winner!), what you are left with are a few-thousand shootings in a nation of 1/3 of a billion people, not "tens of thousands."

See, the problem is that people ACTUALLY "accept" that blacks are just gonna keep on killing other blacks... by the thousands. The politicians DO NOT want to touch that lightening rod. So, they PRETEND that guns are the problem and that (somehow, miraculously) just the right slate of LAWS is gonna solve the "gun problem."

There IS no "gun problem." That's a radical oversimplification. If you want to fixate on every shooting, then you MUST consider each and every one as an isolated incident and try to establish the causal chains that produced it. It's not REALITY to wave a magic wand over "gun violence" and PRETEND that you understand it and that you can legislate it away.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Nov 29, 2015 - 07:28am PT
Crazy guy, radicalized by rightwing media, shoots up a Planned Parenthood clinic because he believed Hannity's bs, over-hyped, selectively edited videos about them selling "baby parts". That's what happened. Deal with it.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 29, 2015 - 07:39am PT
Robert Dear is clearly a case where abortion would have been beneficial. Unfortunately, his mother chose to bring him to term.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 29, 2015 - 07:46am PT
Title, license and insure guns. If your gun gets stolen - report it. If it gets sold - you have a title transfer. Pretty simple either way.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Nov 29, 2015 - 08:09am PT
congress is certainly trustworthy and insulated from influence purchasing by lobby/munny on behalf of, oh I dunno, the NRA, eh Lillegard?
Norton

Social climber
Nov 29, 2015 - 08:15am PT
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Nov 29, 2015 - 08:17am PT
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2015 - 08:22am PT
Great, let's keep it declining for everyone's sake.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 29, 2015 - 08:23am PT
Shoot up a school bus and it never makes the national wires.

http://www.witn.com/home/headlines/Trio-charged-with-shooting-at-vehicles-including-school-activity-bus-347704781.html?device=phone&c=y
WBraun

climber
Nov 29, 2015 - 08:23am PT
Stooopid Americans arguing again ......

rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Nov 29, 2015 - 08:31am PT
Minority on minority , gangland murders are just planned parenthood post partum. Madam Sanger's eugenics in practice. Of course, you anti population, anti humanists support such ongoing efforts. In this respect, Dear is both your hero and villain.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2015 - 08:33am PT
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Nov 29, 2015 - 08:53am PT

The GOP Ignores the Bigger Terror Threat—from the Right

They slam Obama because he won’t say “radical Islam.” But why won’t the Republicans acknowledge radical white terrorists?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/11/29/the-gop-ignores-the-bigger-terror-threat-from-the-right.html

c wilmot

climber
Nov 29, 2015 - 09:53am PT
Sadly your dismissal of the problem in the black community could very well mean you would find a gun fi you went looking. A guy killed 3 people in separate incidents recently and wounded another critically in CA. All were ambushed with guns.
Why did this not make national news? The suspect was black and it happens all the time

http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Triple-murder-suspect-believed-dead-in-Oakland-6645988.php
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 29, 2015 - 10:16am PT
Heroin isn't available legally. Guns are.

Totally ignorant post as usual.


Most of the over 10,000 shootings thus far this year in the poverty gangland inner city communities of Miami, Chicago, Detroit, New Orleans, NYC, Milwaukee, LA etc were done so with "illegal" guns. Most of which are this totally illegal fully auto assault "gun" known as the "Chopper"...


Norton

Social climber
Nov 29, 2015 - 10:21am PT
Why did this not make national news? The suspect was black and it happens all the time

for the same reason that the national news does not bother reporting every time
a white person uses a gun and kills other whites or blacks

350 million people here in the US, the press picks what to cover and what not to
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 29, 2015 - 10:27am PT
the press picks what to cover and what not to ...

The execution of a nine year old innocent boy in an alley by a gang member does not fit the agenda of todays avg liberal national press. Neither does the brutal rape and then execution of a pregnant pastors wife in the safety of her very own living room. Both done with totally "illegal" guns by individuals with long violent criminal rap sheets, btw.

Go figure Norton.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 29, 2015 - 10:32am PT
The media is conservative.



Amanda Blackburn's murder was well covered.

Really? Then why didn't the POTUS make a statement regarding that horrific incident? Nor all the other hundreds of similar incidents that have occurred this year alone?

The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 29, 2015 - 10:35am PT
And end up consistently behaving in a wee wee fairy tale la la land manner like you and Philo... No thanks.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Nov 29, 2015 - 12:54pm PT
Chief: ST's uncle, still drunk and ranting from Thanksgiving.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2015 - 01:14pm PT
The NRA Is Getting Its Ass Kicked And Here’s The Proof
CLIFF SCHECTER11.28.1511:00 PM ET
The National Rifle Association is getting its clocked cleaned.

I know, you need to see that again. So to repeat, and in layman terms: The NRA has been losing a lot lately.

The conventional wisdom is that even with an average of one school shooting per week since Sandy Hook, further common-sense gun regulation is a political non-starter, because of the NRA’s undue influence over our elected officials.


You’re likely familiar with this generic strain of blather, most recently regurgitated to pretend the NRA had a banner election night in Virginia this year.

Democrats, running proudly in support of gun safety, won one state senate race right in the NRA’s backyard. Democrats also picked up a state house seat and barely lost one state senate seat with a strong GOP lean.

For a more accurate view of just how much the NRA’s been losing the past few years, we needn’t look too far afield. The most sweeping gun-violence prevention laws in the country passed in 2014 via citizen ballot initiative, I-594, in Washington State. The initiative got 60 percent of the vote, in an off year when right-wing trolls put a poison pill measure on the ballot to fool people into voting against it—and failed.

In Oregon, the government did its job of protecting citizens over the infinitely expanding greed of Wayne LaPierre and his little band of merry, executive-suite misanthropes.
In Oregon, the government did its job of protecting citizens over the infinitely expanding greed of Wayne LaPierre and his little band of merry, executive-suite misanthropes who run the NRA. They passed a background-check bill against the NRA’s wishes. Meanwhile, some North Carolina lawmakers who didn’t think enough of their constituents were being rendered dead were stopped in their tracks this past July when they tried to eliminate background checks on handgun purchases. The same thing happened in Colorado and Iowa.

Don’t take it from me, though. Listen to the NRA, whose former president called their own efforts in the states this year a “huge train wreck” in an internal memo. The gun nuts lost in 15 of 16 states where they tried to put guns on campus (no doubt to add bullet holes to the general atmosphere of co-ed merriment), including Oklahoma, Arkansas, Indiana, Georgia, South Dakota, Tennessee, South Carolina and Wyoming—all deep red states.

In the one state where they succeeded (although with a watered-down version of their bill), Texas, there have been protests and a number of professors have quit. Also, ironically, they’ve managed to create a whole new grassroots, gun-safety force among students who plan to carry colorful dildos around campus in protest. You see, carrying dildos out in public is illegal in Texas, concealed weapons that can kill now is not. Tells you all you need to know about the gerontocratic, melanin-challenged, right-wing men who are the base of support for both laws and choosing “leaders” in GOP primaries.


Meanwhile, the NRA tried to eliminate any training or permit requirements for concealed carry in West Virginia, Missouri, Utah, and Montana. The results? No, no, no and no. Again, these are not blue states. The same exact scenario played out with the NRA’s efforts to force guns into K-12 schools, based on their made up claim that “gun free zones” attract those who want to do us harm—as if the mentally ill are conducting a multivariate data analysis while planning an murderous spree.

What has happened in the affirmative? In response to the terrible Isla Vista massacre in 2014, California enacted a “gun violence restraining order” to allow close family and law enforcement to temporarily confiscate firearms if someone proves to be a threat to themselves and others.

In Milwaukee, police officers Bryan Norberg and Graham Kunisch, both shot in the face in the line of duty, won a case against known provider of guns to anyone asking, Badger Guns, for $6 million:


The officers, Norberg and Kunisch, alleged Julius Burton obtained the gun in June 2009 through a “straw buy” at Badger Guns.

The officers say the shop personnel were negligent because it was obvious another man actually bought the gun for Burton, who was too young to legally make the purchase, the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel reported.

In fact, upon perusing its history, it becomes hard to doubt that Badger Guns would’ve hesitated to sell guns to Ultron if he had ambled on in to fulfill his need for heavy weaponry. The case is being appealed, but it may create precedent. That would be a very big deal.

Finally, as guns in the wrong hands pose such an existential threat to women suffering abuse at the hands of their husbands, six states, including Alabama and South Carolina, passed bills to make it harder for these abusers to gain access to firearms. Michigan even saw its Republican governor veto a bill to make it easier for abusers to get guns.

Next year it will be Nevada and Maine’s turns to pass universal background checks via ballot initiative. Like everywhere else, this reform is incredibly popular in those states. Washington State looks likely to once again take on the NRA directly, in banning the sale of ivory and other animal trophies. California has a ballot measure set to go in 2016 that would, among other things, make people report lost or stolen guns (I know, common sense if you’re not living in a fortified bunker with buckets of your own urine) and conduct background checks for ammunition purchases. It is the No. 1 priority of Gavin Newsom, the current lieutenant governor and likely gubernatorial candidate for 2018.

You see, the problem is that as all this is taking place, with cultural transformation already evident in People magazine’s now taking on this issue and sports teams’ wearing orange, in symbolic solidarity with gun-violence survivors, too many innocent people are still dying. And when it is local, or a massacre nationally, you will see it on your local or national news, sometimes on a loop. This makes it hard to accept that things are changing. But they are.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 29, 2015 - 02:11pm PT
you want the President to say something about each and every one or would you prefer he run the country???...

Sure does find plenty of time to do so when it perfectly fits HIS side of the aisles agenda.


Go figure....
snowhazed

Trad climber
Oaksterdam, CA
Nov 29, 2015 - 02:17pm PT
Has anyone anywhere labeled this properly?

Religious Terrorism
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2015 - 02:24pm PT
Did your Boi Bush make a nationally televised event for every death of every serviceman and servicewoman? Or did he just photo-op his incompetence on rubble heaps in New York and aircraft carriers outside of San Diego?

What's your ignorant and biased point?

What happened to you man? Was it military training, drugs and PTSD?
There must have been a time in the distant past when you were a happy go lucky and pleasant to interact with person who's moral compass wasn't hopelessly skewed.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Nov 29, 2015 - 02:49pm PT
Well, Hinkley was represented by Vincent Fuller, who ran circles around the prosecution team with the Jody Foster defense. Amazing what money can do. That case changed how the insanity defense can be used in criminal. Cases.

They have been trying to prove Hinkley isn't crazy ever since. If the victim were anyone but the POTUS, he'd be Scot free.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 29, 2015 - 03:06pm PT
Well, maybe not Scott free, but in a nut house instead of a prison.

Probably easier on him where he is.

Non white/non schizoids don't garner the same kind of attention. Doesn't fit the narrative.

They shot up a school bus and it never made anything but local coverage.

http://www.witn.com/home/headlines/Trio-charged-with-shooting-at-vehicles-including-school-activity-bus-347704781.html?device=phone&c=y
monolith

climber
state of being
Nov 29, 2015 - 03:39pm PT
NRA wants those who are involuntary committed to a psychiatric hospital to be able to buy a gun as soon as they are released.

http://www.thetrace.org/2015/08/mental-health-cornyn-bill-involuntary-commitment/
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 29, 2015 - 03:43pm PT
NRA wants those who are involuntary committed to a psychiatric hospital to be able to buy a gun as soon as they are released.

And they roast live kittens on spits at all of their meetings!

monolith

climber
state of being
Nov 29, 2015 - 03:48pm PT
Do you dispute the article, TGT?

Right now you have to petition the court to get back your gun rights if you have been involuntarily committed.

But if the NRA backed bill passes, you are eligible to buy guns the moment you are released from the hospital.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Nov 29, 2015 - 03:50pm PT
http://dailycurrant.com/2015/08/31/trump-kills-kitten-on-live-television-expands-lead-3/
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Nov 29, 2015 - 03:57pm PT
Well, maybe not Scott free, but in a nut house instead of a prison.

He lives on a golf course in a gated community with his grandmother.

The same gated community my brother lives in, in fact.


http://dailycaller.com/2015/04/20/ronald-reagan-shooter-john-hinckley-lives-on-golf-course-in-posh-gated-community/
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 29, 2015 - 04:02pm PT
Did you bother to read the entire article including the last paragraph?
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Nov 29, 2015 - 04:10pm PT
You mean where the secret service keeps track of him. "from time to time"?

I bet they keep track of you from time to time.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 29, 2015 - 04:23pm PT
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2015 - 04:26pm PT
It probably doesn't hurt that the Hinkley family were friends of the Reagans and big contributors to GOP campaigns.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Nov 29, 2015 - 05:07pm PT
The Chief posted
Most of the over 10,000 shootings thus far this year in the poverty gangland inner city communities of Miami, Chicago, Detroit, New Orleans, NYC, Milwaukee, LA etc were done so with "illegal" guns. Most of which are this totally illegal fully auto assault "gun" known as the "Chopper"...

That's really interesting information, Chief. Got a source for that?
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Nov 29, 2015 - 05:13pm PT
In this country the VP can shoot you and get off Scot free.

crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Nov 29, 2015 - 05:32pm PT
El Jefe...read. Learn. Your hate speech has consequences.

“We can’t let it become normal,” Mr. Obama said in a statement. “If we truly care about this — if we’re going to offer up our thoughts and prayers again, for God knows how many times, with a truly clean conscience — then we have to do something about the easy accessibility of weapons of war on our streets to people who have no business wielding them. Period. Enough is enough.”
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 29, 2015 - 05:37pm PT
And they roast live kittens on spits at all of their meetings!

Absolutely, I can testify to that, but they're all communist kittens so it's ok.
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Nov 29, 2015 - 05:43pm PT
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2015 - 09:20pm PT
So one of the C Springs dead was a Iraq war vet.
Really a sad, sad event.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 29, 2015 - 09:22pm PT
You have to love the sheer audacity of the right - Ted Cruz now claims the shooter is a transgender leftist...
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2015 - 09:23pm PT
For real healyje?
That is whacky.
Trying to beat tRump to the punch?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 29, 2015 - 09:34pm PT
Cruz responded: "Well, it's also reported that he was registered as an independent and as a woman and a transgendered leftist activist, if that's what he is."
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Nov 29, 2015 - 10:09pm PT
I had no idea leftist activists registered.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2015 - 09:37am PT
So the angry white Christian man from Hateradiostan, our latest Domestic Terrorist - who we at least know wasn't looking for anymore baby body parts - was carriing duffle bags, as in more than one, of guns into the Planned Parrenthood offices. They are investigating how such a charming man with such obvious social skills attained this large collection of leathality.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Dec 1, 2015 - 09:47am PT
He was biologically male, but apparently self-identified as female (although I have to admit I'm wondering how the full, scruffy beard fits into that picture). Please keep that in mind when constructing your psychological profile.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2015 - 09:52am PT
So you take issue with my use of the word "man"?
You're OK with he/she being called a white Christian terrorist but the referrence to "man" sets you off with a GOP/FOX deflection.

Where does your news come from?
I think you pay way to much attention to Ted Cruz.


Maybe he/she should plead insanity and claim he/she was just channeling his/hers inner Carly Fiorina.


blahblah is right.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 1, 2015 - 12:27pm PT
Nothing in the NYT profile about him being transgender: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/02/us/robert-dear-planned-parenthood-shooting.html



Liberal media claiming Ted Cruz said it: http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2015/11/29/3726311/ted-cruz-planned-parenthood-shooting-transgendered/


Conservative media claiming it's a liberal smear against Cruz: http://www.redstate.com/2015/11/30/media-smear-ted-cruz/
c wilmot

climber
Dec 1, 2015 - 12:33pm PT
The "no more body parts" is from an unnamed source speaking on a condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to release any info...


Meaning...it could very well not be true
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Dec 1, 2015 - 12:40pm PT
I don't always shoot up Planned Parenthoods.

But when I do it's because I am a transgender liberal diehard.

Quoth ted cruz
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Dec 1, 2015 - 12:50pm PT
OK the transgender thing may be a bit of a red herring.
But Philo should either stop calling him a Christian or admit that Obama is lying when he says that ISIS (and similar) terrorists are not following Islam.
Can't have it both ways.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 1, 2015 - 01:04pm PT

Why would he have a cross on his Trailer then

No one said he is Following Christianity, just like No one said that Islamic Terrorists are following the Koran

We all said that right wing religious zealots are the terrorists
it doesn't matter what the f-ing religion is
they think that they are doing GOD's work

and he doesn't consider himself a women
The right wing propagandists use the fact that he checked the wrong box on his voter registration or something.
He's just a right wing idiot and can't even check off the right f-ing Box

The right wing leaders just lie about this so they can distance themselves from their Creation, a loon with guns.

Another typical right wing lie campaign when they catch them with their hands in the cookie jar.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Dec 1, 2015 - 01:10pm PT
Why would he have a cross on his Trailer then

I don't know, why do ISIS terrorists claim to be motivated solely by the Koran when murdering people, and they quote verses from the Koran to justify their actions.
Why does President Obama deny that they are following Muslim teachings?

Edit--Philo described him as a Christian.
Philo should either retract that OR admit Obama is lying. I don't really care which, but it has to be one or the other, unless Philo wants to admit (and his silence is tantamount to an admission) to hypocrisy.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 1, 2015 - 01:14pm PT
If you would ask, the shooter would say he's good Christian, he is doing God's work
other Good Christians would disagree

same thing with Islamics

do you understand?
Obama isn't lying, your logic is just flawed
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 1, 2015 - 01:35pm PT
*We* Don’t Make Heroes Out of Violent Psychopaths

A violent psychopath went on a shooting spree near a Planned Parenthood butcher shop over Thanksgiving weekend.

He will not become a martyr and symbol of any movement, like violent thug Michael Brown.

No one on the right will wear a T-shirt or wave a banner emblazoned with his image, like mass-murdering communist icon Che Guevara.

He will not be given a teaching position at the University of Illinois and become a celebrated community organizer like unrepentant left-wing terrorist Bill Ayers.

He will not be given a job as a correspondent for taxpayer-funded NPR, become a cause celebre among the Hollywood left, and given honorary degrees like left-wing cop-killer Mumia Abu Jamal.

The Right does not make violent sociopaths into heroes.

The Left does.

You will also not see anyone on the left go out of their way to claim that he does not represent the peaceful majority of people who oppose abortion-for-convenience.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 1, 2015 - 01:48pm PT
Great post TGT

Pure lies fabricated by some right wing extremists (possible terrorists)
keep up the great work!

Ya, those viscous left wingers calling out your BS right wing misinformation (propaganda) must be so hurtful

Peace and love

Can you prove that Michael Brown was a Left wing thug?
Can you prove anything you copy and paste?

No, you can't, it's pure fiction that you use to shift the blame.
Gary

Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
Dec 1, 2015 - 02:11pm PT
*We* Don’t Make Heroes Out of Violent Psychopaths

A violent psychopath went on a shooting spree near a Planned Parenthood butcher shop over Thanksgiving weekend.

Jeebus.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2015 - 03:34pm PT
Why dont you Retract your head from your Ass!

Edit--Philo described him as a Christian.
Philo should either retract that OR admit Obama is lying. I don't really care which, but it has to be one or the other, unless Philo wants to admit (and his silence is tantamount to an admission) to hypocrisy.

First my silence indicates I had other things to do. Second He/She is a self avowed Christian according to friends, neighbors and an ex-spouse. It has nothing to do with Obama and everything to do with what Craig "Dr F" Fry said. It doesn't matter what religion is claimed it is the rightwing ideology gone extreme that is to be held accountable.
Binks

climber
Uranus
Dec 1, 2015 - 07:01pm PT
Why is is it that all these dumb f*#ks with guns don't realize that only utter COWARDS shoot or otherwise harm unarmed people.

The have poop for brains, and no amount of firepower will change that.
Gary

Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
Dec 1, 2015 - 07:05pm PT
Why is is it that all these dumb f*#ks with guns don't realize that only utter COWARDS shoot or otherwise harm unarmed people.

For the same reason those ISIL f*#kheads attack kids at a concert rather than going after an army barracks.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 1, 2015 - 07:19pm PT
A number of people who knew Mr. Dear said he was a staunch abortion opponent. Ms. Micheau, 60, said in a brief interview Tuesday that late in her marriage to Mr. Dear, he told her that he had put glue in the locks of a Planned Parenthood location in Charleston.

Prior history of direct action makes him undeniably one of theirs...


“Turn to JESUS or burn in hell,” he wrote on one site on Oct. 7, 2005. “WAKE UP SINNERS U CANT SAVE YOURSELF U WILL DIE AN WORMS SHALL EAT YOUR FLESH, NOW YOUR SOUL IS GOING SOMEWHERE.”

He would have fit right in here at ST.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 1, 2015 - 07:38pm PT
Yeah we know. It's all the fault of shrub and the Koch bros.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 1, 2015 - 07:43pm PT
So a political party is responsible for a catastrophic mental illness like schizophrenia?

Only the equally mentally ill could jump to that conclusion.


But then they elevate mass murderers to sainthood.

Jorroh

climber
Dec 1, 2015 - 07:52pm PT
"So a political party is responsible for a catastrophic mental illness like schizophrenia"

Cool TGT has given his diagnosis....Schizophrenia it is then.
Who could argue with that.
PAUL SOUZA

Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
Dec 1, 2015 - 07:58pm PT
Funny how people can diagnose other people with mental disorders over the internet while having no idea what they are talking about....
Jorroh

climber
Dec 1, 2015 - 08:03pm PT
We're lucky to have someone as expert as TGT!

Pure coincidence that he needs the shooter to be a schizophrenic for his barely-connected-to-reality narrative.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 1, 2015 - 08:23pm PT
The Republican Party bears some moral responsibility for these murders, plain and simple.

That's funny.

Like all Muslims bear some responsibility for their murderous brethren?

Like blacks bear some responsibility for the bulk of crime in Urban areas?

I bet there are some good moral people who consider themselves "Republicans" just like there are good moral people who consider themselves "Democrats". Don't you think so?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 1, 2015 - 08:37pm PT
When all is said and done, it is highly likely that the gunman will be diagnosed as a schizophrenic.

And, if that turns out to be the case, then folks on the right are still responsible because their constant drumbeat of hysterical and incendiary rhetoric along with distortions of reality designed - let me repeat, DESIGNED - to provoke indignation, outrage and to radicalize. And that has been explicit political strategy for decades now. And that's simply impossible to do without sweeping up a certain percentage of borderline personalities who will act on your rhetoric.

He and his actions can definitely be laid at their feet and their chosen speech has directly cost us a mother of two, a pastor and an Iraq vet, but then they know that upfront and that's just the cost of doing business to the Reeds, Atwaters, Roves, and Wadhams of the gop.
Jorroh

climber
Dec 1, 2015 - 08:38pm PT
Bit of a shaky analogy there Fear.

Almost the entire republican establishment has been blabbing about planned parenthood for months, all sorts of BS, presidential candidates trying to out-outrage each other over phony videos, even threatening to shut down the government over its funding F.F.S.

Pure demagoguery in its worst form.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Dec 1, 2015 - 08:51pm PT
@ Healyje. Yep, when you incite the inmates you are responsible for the results. Right wingers have been inciting their buds for years to kill abortion doctors. When it works they deny all responsibility for the result. A nice sort of cognitive dissonance if you want to avoid all responsibility but still get the result you want.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Dec 1, 2015 - 09:13pm PT
There's a difference between pointing out problems and inciting action. Let's get real here; there have been persons who have demonized doctors at abortion clinics and called for their death. When the rabble they incite do as they bid they are certainly responsible. Pointing out injustice is not incitement to commit crimes.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Dec 1, 2015 - 09:18pm PT
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2015 - 10:18pm PT
The LEBification of another thread.

Edited to add. That didn't take long.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 2, 2015 - 08:01am PT
Werner some have seen through these charades from their beginnings.
But voicing opposition to the myth d'jour tends to get one pilloried by those who will later claim they "knew it all along" when the truth oozes out. WMDs come to mind.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 2, 2015 - 08:07am PT
They are getting so rich of the sale of baby parts, that they are buying Lamborghinis!!!!

A new undercover video shows a top Planned Parenthood official discussing “less crunchy” techniques to get “whole specimens” and haggling over the price of fetus tissue sales because she wants “a Lamborghini.”
Fox News

Carly says "The liberals are harvesting Live Baby Brains"

when you demonize a group with lies
then when some right winger wacko with legal guns shoots it up, you are responsible for provoking the murders

It's the lies that matter, lies that are used as propaganda.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 2, 2015 - 08:26am PT
Retract this blahblah.


For Robert Dear, Religion and Rage Before Planned Parenthood Attack
By RICHARD FAUSSET
DEC. 1, 2015

CHARLESTON, S.C. — The man she had married professed to be deeply religious. But after more than seven years with Robert L. Dear Jr., Barbara Micheau had come to see life with him as a kind of hell on earth.

By January 1993, she had had enough. In a sworn affidavit as part of her divorce case, Ms. Micheau described Mr. Dear as a serial philanderer and a problem gambler, a man who kicked her, beat her head against the floor and fathered two children with other women while they were together. He found excuses for his transgressions, she said, in his idiosyncratic views on Christian eschatology and the nature of salvation.

“He claims to be a Christian and is extremely evangelistic, but does not follow the Bible in his actions,” Ms. Micheau said in the court document. “He says that as long as he believes he will be saved, he can do whatever he pleases. He is obsessed with the world coming to an end.”

Robert L. Dear Jr., right, appeared in court via live video with his public defender, Dan King, on Monday in Colorado Springs.Suspect in Planned Parenthood Attack, Hears Murder ChargeNOV. 30, 2015
A man was taken into custody outside a clinic in Colorado Springs on Friday. A gun battle there raged for more than five hours.3 Are Dead in Colorado Springs Shootout at Planned Parenthood CenterNOV. 27, 2015
Robert L. Dear Jr., the suspect in the shooting at a Planned Parenthood clinic in Colorado Springs, made this R.V. his home in tiny Hartsel, Colo.Robert Dear, Suspect in Colorado Killings, ‘Preferred to Be Left Alone’NOV. 28, 2015
On Friday, according to officials, Mr. Dear entered a Planned Parenthood clinic in Colorado Springs, killing three people and wounding nine others with a semiautomatic rifle. The attack, which ended with his surrender to the police after a harrowing nationally televised standoff in the snow-dusted Western city, was a brutally violent and very public chapter in a life story whose details are not fully known.

The musty and weathered trailer in Swannanoa, N.C., from which Mr. Dear ran a business called S Prints Mountain Art Prints. Credit Michael Biesecker/Associated Press
But in court documents and interviews with people who knew Mr. Dear well, a picture emerges of an angry and occasionally violent man who seemed deeply disturbed and deeply contradictory: He was a man of religious conviction who sinned openly, a man who craved both extreme solitude and near-constant female company, a man who successfully wooed women but, some of them say, also abused them. He frequented marijuana websites, then argued with other posters, often through heated religious screeds.

“Turn to JESUS or burn in hell,” he wrote on one site on Oct. 7, 2005. “WAKE UP SINNERS U CANT SAVE YOURSELF U WILL DIE AN WORMS SHALL EAT YOUR FLESH, NOW YOUR SOUL IS GOING SOMEWHERE.”

A number of people who knew Mr. Dear said he was a staunch abortion opponent. Ms. Micheau, 60, said in a brief interview Tuesday that late in her marriage to Mr. Dear, he told her that he had put glue in the locks of a Planned Parenthood location in Charleston.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Dec 2, 2015 - 08:54am PT
Retract this blahblah.

Either you're being willfully dense, or you just don't seem to be up to getting it. Either way, I'll try one more time:
Our fearless Obama consistently denies that ISIS are in fact Muslim, notwithstanding that not only do they claim to be strictly following Islamic teachings, but also there is Koranic support for their conduct. (Read the highly regarded Atlantic article http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/);
If you accept Obama's reasoning (which appears to be that "most" Muslims don't agree with all ISIS's conduct, although obviously many support them all or at least in part), you should deny that the C. Springs shooter is a Christian.
Or you should admit that Obama is a liar. (Although in fairness to Obama, his lying is "JV" compared to Hillary's.)
Or you can continue to ignore your own and Obama's hypocrisy--that's what I'm betting on!
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 2, 2015 - 09:00am PT
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 2, 2015 - 09:02am PT
Obama calls them Radical Religious Extremists all the time

The only problem is that you want him to call them something he won't call them because it would enflame the situation with normal Muslims

Just like He won't call out PP shooter a Christian Extremist
it would enflame the rest of the Christian right wing terrorists and normal Christians

Why does it matter what he calls them, it's completely juvenile to push such a divisive argument about what words he uses

No one is lying, it's just another smear campaign based on Obama derangement

rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 2, 2015 - 09:05am PT
Show us the transcript of Obama using Islamic in conjunction with extremist. Put up or shut up Craig.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 2, 2015 - 09:05am PT
No he says they are not acting in the true heart of Islam. They are not truly Muslims. Just like the Westburrough Babitist ASSes and this jackwad Dear, you can claim any religion you want but your actions speak louder than your words.
Your issue is ODS (Obama Derangement Syndrome) get over it.




Dec 2, 2015 - 09:05am PT
Show us the transcript of Obama using Islamic in conjunction with extremist. Put up or shut up Craig
To what end Rick? What would that do except give FOX newsheads a drippy chubby?
Like the inane insistance that Canidates wear a US flag pin. What does that supposedly prove? Except that as Werner says "Americans are stupid" and easilly mollified by shiny meaningless shit!.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 2, 2015 - 09:12am PT
Au contraire...I consider members of the Westboro Baptist Church to be true christians. Their behavior resonates nicely with many Old Testament teachings.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 2, 2015 - 09:14am PT
Unfortunately Jim that is a very valid point.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 2, 2015 - 09:18am PT
Face the facts lads. Neither Muslims, Christians, or atheists hold the patent on extremism. Larger than life characters pushing radical ideologies equals big death. This has been a near constant condition throughout history. Dear and the gangbangers of the inner city are just a useless side show as much bigger menaces rear their ugly heads.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 2, 2015 - 09:20am PT
No one said they did
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Dec 2, 2015 - 09:42am PT
Au contraire...I consider members of the Westboro Baptist Church to be true christians. Their behavior resonates nicely with many Old Testament teachings.

Interesting argument--let's see if I follow you.
There are people you regard as "true christians."
And the test of "true christians" is whether "their behavior resonates nicely with many Old Testament teachings."
I think I'm following you.
But one thing I'm not sure about--where does the word "christian" come from? Would that have anything to do with a "true christian"?
Is there a term for people who follow the Old Testament and not the New Testament? Is that term "true Christian"?
Are there some written texts that may give me more insight into the beliefs of "true christians"? Maybe the Old Testament?

Thanks for helping me understand this.



fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 2, 2015 - 10:18am PT
So someone who murders innocent people.....

Remind me again why we should care what imaginary friend(s) they claim to have? What political parties they belong to? What books they read? What color they are? What clothes they wear? What method they choose?

Terminate the problem and move on....
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Dec 2, 2015 - 10:50am PT
Neither Muslims, Christians, or atheists hold the patent on extremism.

True, But when it comes to killing in the name of their God, Muslims are the worst offenders. By a long shot.

How many Christians and Sunnis have been killed by ISIS for not renouncing their faiths?
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Dec 2, 2015 - 10:56am PT
^^^^I thought ISIS are sunni and that they don't like shia

edit; oop, got distracted ....gotta work

rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:21am PT
I believe Edward T, that Stalin and Mao still hold the record for most destruction of humanity over the last 100 years. They both allowed no religion but worship of the state. Atheism wins by a wide margin.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:31am PT
Faith.....believing something for no good reason. Pretty hard to argue against someone who has it...you certainly can't you reason.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:34am PT
Edward posted
True, But when it comes to killing in the name of their God, Muslims are the worst offenders*. By a long shot.

*citation needed
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:37am PT
The Austrian chap with the little mustache was confirmed Catholic in 1904.

The official religion he advocated in the thirties was called "Positive Christianity" and called Christianity the foundation of German Morality.
Norton

Social climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:38am PT
San Bernardino Active Shooter right now.....
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:40am PT
screidc
I thought so too.

The shia talk to god thru a cleric but the sunnis have always been the loose cannons.



So philo,

I can't make it to the SHOT show. Maybe you would like my pass so you can rant to 190,000 gun owners????

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:47am PT
Twenty victims reported in San Berdoo....the least the NRA could do is provide body bags, they certainly have the coin.
Gary

Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
Dec 2, 2015 - 12:22pm PT
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-up-to-20-shot-in-san-bernardino-active-shooter-sought-20151202-story.html
p to 20 people were shot Wednesday at a social services office in San Bernardino, and officials said they were looking for one or more "active shooters."

The San Bernardino Fire Department said the shooting took place on the 1300 block of Waterman Avenue, near Orange Show Road.

Sgt. Vicki Cervantes, a spokeswoman for the San Bernardino Police Department, told reporters at the scene up to three shooters were reported inside the Inland Regional Center. Officers have not secured the building and going door-to-door.

The suspects, she said, are heavily armed and were possibly wearing body armor.

“It’s a very active scene,” Cervantes said. “It’s very fluid.”
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 2, 2015 - 12:28pm PT
This thread should be able to serve as the go-to thread for the regular active shootings that define America these days.

You know...kinda like the Politapocalypse thread...a centralized place for reports & discussions of what is now an apparent American pastime.
Gary

Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
Dec 2, 2015 - 12:36pm PT
I give up. The NRA wins. I'm going to start packing.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 2, 2015 - 12:37pm PT
Me, too. Canada sounds like a nice place to go.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 12:39pm PT
The only thing that can keep us safe is for America to have the largest military, the biggest jails and the highest rate of gun ownership oh wai......
Gary

Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
Dec 2, 2015 - 12:39pm PT
I was just thinking Squamish is a nice place.
Lurkingtard

climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 12:43pm PT
Canada sounds like a nice place to go.

Chill bro. Yer talkin crazy talk.


I was just thinking Squamish is a nice place.

Yeah, like 3 months out of the year.

Canada will make you crazy. I know I've dated a couple of them Canukes. Well one was French Canadian. Another level of Cray cray.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 2, 2015 - 01:12pm PT
Canada will take your gun when you cross the border, so you'll be the only guy in Canada without a gun.

A license is required to own or possess firearms. Federal government safety course required before applying for a license. To be authorized to carry a handgun or restricted long gun for a lawful occupational purpose, such as trapping or working in a wilderness area, an individual must be a Canadian resident, have a firearms licence with restricted privileges and obtain an Authorization to Transport (ATT) permit from the CFO.[10] Semi automatic firearms have size restricted magazines (rimfire rifles excluded) Automatic firearms not permitted.
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Dec 2, 2015 - 01:14pm PT

I heard on news reports that there may be as many as a dozen fatalities
in the San Bernadino shootings.

And we need more guns????
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 2, 2015 - 01:15pm PT
Chief should be here any minute to explain to us why we all need more guns.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 2, 2015 - 01:47pm PT
WTF?
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 2, 2015 - 01:47pm PT
WTF?
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 2, 2015 - 01:48pm PT
WTF?
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 2, 2015 - 01:48pm PT
WTF?
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 2, 2015 - 01:48pm PT
WTF?
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 2, 2015 - 01:49pm PT
WTF?
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 2, 2015 - 02:04pm PT
Perhaps the adults can continue the disscussion now.
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Dec 2, 2015 - 02:05pm PT
Here, hold this snake Randisi found while I check for the muslims in a black SUV...



edit; criminey...............
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 2, 2015 - 02:08pm PT
If you're not homeless, on parole, a welfare mother, an illegal alien, or a government employee, STAY THE F*#K OUT OF SAN BERNARDINO.
There's nothing for you there.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Dec 2, 2015 - 02:09pm PT
Probably more Fundamental Radical Christian Extremists AKA Christian Terrorists.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 2, 2015 - 02:10pm PT
The good ole US of Armory....5% of the world's population but proudly checking in with 31% of the mass shootings. American exceptionalism at it's best!
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 2, 2015 - 02:11pm PT

shooting: Manhunt for three suspects after at least 12 people killed at centre for disabled in California - live Officials report 20 victims at a shooting in California with police hunting between three suspects: follow latest updates here

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 2, 2015 - 02:14pm PT
San Bernardino averages one murder a week - that's more than San Francisco and Seattle both put together, even though San Bernardino's population is 1/3 that of Seattle and 1/4 that of San Francisco.

There's no reason to get off the freeway in San Bernardino, unless you're seriously bored.



10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired Climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 02:41pm PT
We live in a fuked up world people.

It's full of sick people with political, religious, or societal agendas that what to make their point with weapons.

The media milking it for all it's worth,
spinning it to fit their agendas does not help.

+1
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired Climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 02:49pm PT
I give up. The NRA wins. I'm going to start packing.

I hear you Gary.

Fox reporting shooters were Muslims!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

of course they would.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 2, 2015 - 02:51pm PT
Cheefy, bay-bee....where are you....?

We know you're lurking out there, sweating bullets (ha!) as you resist the urge to take over this gun thread again in the midst of a(nother) mass shooting...

How long before he gives in....any bets?
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 2, 2015 - 02:52pm PT
The media milking it for all it's worth,

As is the POTUS. Within 18 minutes of the news breaking, he made a public statement that started off with the following statement without even knowimg wtf has happened....


"The one thing we do know is that we have a pattern now of mass shootings in this country that has no parallel anywhere else in world,"

Nobody knows who or what or why. What they do know is these doods were all masked, wearing vests, in some kind of "military uniforms" and got away lickity split and no one has any clue as to where they may be or who they are.


Apparently there was a "Holiday" function for County Employess going on in the Conference room where this well planned "hit" took place.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 03:03pm PT
The only answer to this problem is to take away guns from those who lawfully own/carry them, and are responsible gun owners.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired Climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 03:07pm PT
It's not ISIS. The perps drove a black suv. ISIS only drives Toyotas.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 2, 2015 - 03:08pm PT
I got ten bucks says these doods are Professional Cartel Hitmen and this was a straight up hit job on some SB County employee/s and/or witness/s in some high profile local drug or murder case.

I got another ten bucks says these dooods are racing down I-15 in separate vehicles back to Mexico and will never be heard of again.

Any takers?

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 2, 2015 - 03:10pm PT
Damn!

Damn Damn Damn!

Predictable as the sun.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 2, 2015 - 03:11pm PT
Does that mean "Yes" apogee? You'll take my bet? What do ya got to lose. Hell, I lose and I'll paypal $20.00.

I win, you, Philo, Fry, Crankstar, you all stfu for a month and cease posting on any politard thread.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 2, 2015 - 03:14pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 2, 2015 - 03:20pm PT
You would ZACH with your straight up butthurt whining completely useless postings. Who else.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 2, 2015 - 03:23pm PT
Well Ten bucks is off the bet. SBSD just shot the shet outta of a Cadilac Escalade.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 2, 2015 - 03:40pm PT
Well Ten bucks is off the bet. SBSD just shot the shet outta of a Cadilac Escalade.

Let's hope it wasn't a soccer mom and some kids...
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Dec 2, 2015 - 03:55pm PT
it wasn't

http://www.msnbc.com/shift/watch/live-report-on-shootings-in-california-578073667684
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 2, 2015 - 03:55pm PT
"They have pulled over a Blk SUV, surrounded it and shot it up."


Shit! I lived on that block 30 years ago. Oakieville is what the neighborhood's called.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 2, 2015 - 03:59pm PT
All bets off. Cartel Hitmen would not have been caught/terminated in the area of the hit.


Out!
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 2, 2015 - 04:12pm PT
My neighbor just called. "Have you been watching this sh#t?" he said. "That's going to kill property values in San Bernardino"
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Dec 2, 2015 - 04:55pm PT
Low class Fu%k ups. White guys

Most likely revenge shooting.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 2, 2015 - 05:45pm PT
"The media is covering it because it's big news."

The media is doing a piss-poor job.

I've been watching TV News for a couple hours, and if the talking heads don't have something to read that someone else wrote for them, they can't form a coherent thought. People whose first language is English, whose job is communication, can't speak in complete sentences when it matters. People like Colleen Williams, who's been doing this job for thirty f*#king years that I know of, can't put two words of her own choosing together in a way that makes any sense.

They confuse east with west, even though anyone watching the picture can tell east from west just by checking the f*#king shadows.

Every gun is a reported "long" rifle. What? Like a Kentucky Rifle? Or a K-98 Mauser? When the rifles used were probably of the shorter variety, like carbines. One person said "long" and all the TV parrots repeat it without thinking.

They find some official who can answer questions, but for some reason, they can't mike-up the person ASKING the questions. So you get something like this:

Q: "blahblahblahblah, blahblah, blah?"
A: "Yes"
Q: "blahblahblahblah, blahblah, blah?"
A: "Not at this time"
Q: "blahblahblahblah, blahblah, blah?"
A: "No"
Q: "blahblahblahblah, blahblah, blah?"
A: "That's correct"

Is it THAT f*#king difficult? If it is, why televise it?
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 2, 2015 - 05:48pm PT
Exactly crankster.

The current buzz is "revenge killing".
What kind of revenge is so extreme that a person could talk others into an all out armed assault on a center for the developementally dissabled? Now they have said on the news that the center does rent out facility space like the conferrence room to groups and events.
SO maybe there was a revenge target there. Given the location it seems that three people in a coordinated attack with costumes, serious guns and explosives is a big mountain of revenge.

Seeing pics and vids of the shot to hell suv it's hard to believe a perp got out of that and escaped on foot witout drooling a DNA trail.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 05:59pm PT
Chaz posted
Every gun is a reported "long" rifle. What? Like a Kentucky Rifle? Or a K-98 Mauser? When the rifles used were probably of the shorter variety, like carbines. One person said "long" and all the TV parrots repeat it without thinking.

Yeah, man. If only they'd break the news on what kind of gun it was, it would really crack this thing wide open. Why are you watching television news anyway? It's been this bad for 20 years.
zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 06:02pm PT
Guns didn't kill those 14 people, it was that damn SUV. Who manufactured that thing?


John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Dec 2, 2015 - 06:02pm PT
agreed, Media is retarded. The name of the guy they are, supposedly tearing the town up for, is all over the internep. They have Politically Correct, structured right on in. That kinda is telling me a lot.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 2, 2015 - 06:05pm PT
FBI showed up in force within minutes after.

At the press conference a few minutes ago they would not " rule out" terrorism. I'm sure they have the names of the two dead perps by now, and it's revealing that they are not releasing them.


zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 06:13pm PT


[Click to View YouTube Video]
SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
Dec 2, 2015 - 06:14pm PT
The SUV looks like a Ford Exploder.

Susan.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Dec 2, 2015 - 06:15pm PT
They still won't say if it was a white or black or islamo

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 2, 2015 - 06:16pm PT
This is all Obama's fault.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 2, 2015 - 06:18pm PT
They don't identify dead until relatives have been notified, so no one finds out on TV it was their Little Angel who died shooting at police.
The cops like to break that news to them themselves.
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Dec 2, 2015 - 06:23pm PT
ISIS tweets bragging about it.

https://twitter.com/Neran_Da3shya/status/672183740643352577?ref_src=twsrc^tfw
zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 06:34pm PT
I think the last time someone has "gone postal" was around 2006. Can we blame Obama for this? Maybe the motivation is just good old nostalgia.

Mad dogs and Americans. Dec. 2, 2015.

A pack of pit bulls yanked a 4-year-old Detroit boy from his mother, dragged him away and mauled him to death Wednesday, police said.

The boy died from his injuries after the attack in his neighborhood. Police killed three dogs and had a fourth pit bull in custody, Sgt. Cassandra Lewis said.

The attack occurred while the boy was walking with his mother. The dogs crawled through a gap at the bottom of a fence and pounced.

"The mother tried to fight the dogs off," Police Chief James Craig said. "What's telling in this scenario (is) the viciousness of these animals, the fact that they removed this child from the mother's grasp."

A witness, Nyasha Reid, said the mother screamed, "They got my baby."

Reid and others called 911. Neighbors yelled at the dogs and used a brick and club to try to free the boy.

"The cop had to open fire to at least get the dogs off the baby," said another witness, Yolanda Samuels.

The boy's name was not released, nor was the name of the dogs' 41-year-old owner. Police said he's cooperating.

"It's pretty much an open-and-shut case," Lewis said. "We know who the dogs belong to."
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 2, 2015 - 06:39pm PT
Now they're in Redlands - south of the freeway Redlands, where the worst crime is someone's dog crapping on your front lawn.

Six helicopters are hovering high over Center / Brookside, and one low flying in circles.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 2, 2015 - 06:44pm PT
Sayed Farook

Identified as one of the shooters by NBC. (so a salt sprinkling is in order)

Looks like holiday festivities brought to you by the death cult of the child molesting warlord.

Hope this isn't a precedent.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 2, 2015 - 06:58pm PT
It's an internal squabble within the County Health Department, apparently.

I know for a fact the S.B. Health Department has a history of hiring head cases to work as inspectors. I've gone rounds with multiple inspectors over asinine sh#t that never amounted to anything when I was tending bar. Not with Farook this guy, but enough to demonstrate a pattern.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Dec 2, 2015 - 07:07pm PT
Hannity is playing up the Middle East connection; hard to say what's going on.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Dec 2, 2015 - 07:10pm PT
Happy Birthday Farouk...
Norton

Social climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 07:11pm PT

puke
zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 07:13pm PT
That's "Syed Farook"?

If Hannity is playing up the Middle East connectin, it's time to look elsewhere.


Farook was a business taxes representative for the California State Board of Equalization, according to his LinkedIn profile. He is a 2003 graduate La Sierra High School, and most recently studied finance at California State University Fullerton until 2013.

Records show Farook bought a two bedroom Corona home in March 2014. Farouk’s social media profile shows he is married and has at least one young child. His wife did not return messages left on Wednesday.

Farook lived at a home with his wife and children in Corona, California.

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 2, 2015 - 07:16pm PT
L.A. Times is saying it's a different Farook. One that makes more sense.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-san-bernardino-shooting-live-updates-htmlstory.html

"According to public records, a Syed R. Farook worked as an environmental health specialist for San Bernardino County. It's unclear whether that is the same person connected to the attack. The shooting occurred at an event for the county's public health department."
zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 07:24pm PT
It's good to get all the misinformation recorded so that the folks involved in reporting it, can attend at UC extension class on "How to Generate Revenue by Passing Round The Bogus" for their continuing education credits.

Anybody get the religious preference of those pitbulls?


BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 2, 2015 - 07:59pm PT
Condolences to all the family and friends of those shot.

OMG, have you ever seen them send out so many cops to find two gunners?? Obliviously a stunt to get everyone to like cops again..
They should send the san bernardino cops over to Syria to flush out isis. They found these two in hours.

i only wish we could see the effort we saw today in SB used to flush out those SOB's causing Alzheimer's. BTW, 270 died today of Alzheimers. But that didn't make the news :(
zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 08:06pm PT
As it stands now (though it's sure to change), witnesses gave up Farook's name and they used this to look up his auto and property records. They then drove over to the house some hours later.

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 2, 2015 - 08:14pm PT
L.A. Times is reporting that this same Inland Regional Center is used every month by the cops for active shooter drills.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-san-bernardino-shooting-dramatic-video-shows-police-storming-inland-regional-center-20151202-story.html

14 dead, AND the shooters escape. Good thing they trained for this. Imagine how much worse it would have been if they hadn't.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 2, 2015 - 08:42pm PT
Right wing extremists, or a roving pack of delusional fundamentalist christians? Whatever, if the victims had been trained in firearms usage, and a few were packing, things like this would never go so far.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 2, 2015 - 09:00pm PT
Absolute idiocy^^^^^^. Advocating for defenseless sheep being lead to slaughter. We are at war with targeted lethal violence. Like your dear leader said "you don't bring a knife to a gunfight".
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Dec 2, 2015 - 09:02pm PT
The debate the country needs to have will be among reasonable adults. Very few on your side, per your previous illogical comments.

Bodies barely cold, riddled by bullets and you're advocating MORE guns. You're nuts.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired Climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 09:12pm PT

Right wing extremists, or a roving pack of delusional fundamentalist christians? Whatever, if the victims had been trained in firearms usage, and a few were packing, things like this would never go so far.

Umm, the perps were wearing body armor. Furthermore, it's a proven fact that untrained people are more likely to shoot themselves, or their friends, as opposed to shooting the bad guys.
Bad Climber

climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 09:12pm PT
Crankster, I get your point, but I do have one question: Assuming you had some training, if you found yourself--Buddha forbid--in a similar situation, would you want to have a gun on you? The odds are, fortunately, extraordinarily small of encountering these situations, and I'm not about to go out and get a carry permit myself, but I have a hard time arguing against those who would. I sure wish the cops on my campus packed heat.

BAd

Edit: One needs LOTS of training to get a carry permit, btw.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Dec 2, 2015 - 09:16pm PT
I once had the skillz to shoot those dipshits in the head pretty easy. have not shot much in 15 years so ..no joy.

I have no wish to carry on a day to day basis..Its a major responsibility. It is a pain in the ass. It is more of a liability than it is a strategic daily advantage.

ALL THIS IS BULLSH#T

HEART DISEASE OR CANCER IS WHAT WILL KILL YOU,,

14 people killed is less than a blip on that 1000s daily radar.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 2, 2015 - 09:20pm PT
10B, I was being a bit facetious. Of course this is looking like planned Islamic extremism. Even if it isn't though, gun violence against soft targets is escalating in this country. Perhaps it's time for compulsory weapons education, even national service, with all citizens required to be trained in and own arms like the swiss.
John M

climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 09:27pm PT
One needs LOTS of training to get a carry permit, btw.

Doesn't that vary from state to state? I could be wrong, but I believe Texas requires a 5 hour course. That doesn't seem like much training.

As for training people.. they would have to carry at all times for it to be effective.

consider

Fort Hood… 2009 12 dead.. 32 wounded
Navy Yard near D.C. 2013 13 dead 4 wounded.

Training obviously isn't enough. Someone also has to be armed at all times.

Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 2, 2015 - 09:30pm PT
One needs LOTS of training to get a carry permit, btw.

Open carry is legal without a permit in Oregon. You get funny looks at Starbucks, though. Especially from the cops having coffee.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 2, 2015 - 09:36pm PT
Well guys, with the military being downsized lots of vets are joining the ranks of the unemployed. For starters, they could go reserve status and be deployed to some of the problem areas.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 2, 2015 - 09:41pm PT

Especially from the cops having coffee.

you got cops go'in to starbucks? they must be overpaid.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 2, 2015 - 09:49pm PT
Bad, some would argue that all teachers should carry guns. I know a lot of teachers. Not one of them thinks that is a good idea.

Guns are a main part of the problem. You think there would have been a mass stabbing today? The NRA is mostly to blame. The debate will have to go through them, defeat them. They are the enemy of a civilized society.

I'm not talking about hunting rifles and legitimate weapons for home defense. And I'm not saying I have all the answers or there's one quick fix. But we have to take the question of guns on as a nation. Now.

Blaming this on guns is akin to blaming arson on matches and military-grade large capacity gasoline containers.

Every situation has a root cause, and it's there and only there that the solution can be found. The recent murders at the party have a cause. That cause bears no relation to the causes of the 4000 other murders today all over the world. Likewise the solutions are going to be different.

New laws and legislation are enormously broad strokes that affect only those willing to follow them and to add to a compendium of millions of other laws and legislation is absurd.

The best thing I ever did was kill the Tee-vee.... I'm sure they've got everyone all whipped up into a frenzy by now.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 2, 2015 - 09:54pm PT

Furthermore, it's a proven fact that untrained people are more likely to shoot themselves, or their friends, as opposed to shooting the bad guys.

maybe somebody should hand Sumner a shotgun? He's certainly spewing forth huge cornicorpulous amounts of steaming staunchy BS especially what a christian is, he should just pridefully take one for the gipper.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 2, 2015 - 10:12pm PT
THE ANSWER - WHICH HAS NEVER BEEN GIVEN A TRULY EFFECTIVE TRIAL - IS MORE GUNS. ISSUE ONE TO EVERY CITIZEN OVER THE AGE OF FIVE YEARS OLD AND MANDATE CONCEALED AND OPEN CARRY AS A CIVIC RESPONSIBILITY IN DEFENSE OF THE HOMELAND.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 2, 2015 - 10:19pm PT
Yeah, but the victims all worked for the County Health Department.
I've dealt with a bunch of those guys, and not one was what I would consider to be a stable person. I don't trust these guys with guns. It's bad enough some of them drive.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 2, 2015 - 10:25pm PT
Well, probably best not to go down the road of who one trusts with guns. I personally don't trust the NRA with one.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Dec 2, 2015 - 10:25pm PT
Since this thread stared, an average of 180 people have been murdered in this country. One every 39 minutes. These media events generate all this angst and yet 100's of times more people are Murdered annually, alone, semi anonymously, mourned only by family and friends.

And still, Murder is down 40% over the last 20 years.

3000 Americans a day have died from heart disease and cancer since this thread started.... so what is that like...15,000 people?

ya'all freakin over 14 make me sad... humans are not good at math and threat assessment OR RESOURCE ALLOCATION apparently.

Issue every person in the USA 5 guns (loaded) and you wouldn't even begin to touch the 10th highest cause of death in America. HOWEVER YOU WOULD BE NEARLY ON PAR WITH DROWNING...
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Dec 2, 2015 - 10:31pm PT

Dec 2, 2015 - 09:27pm PT
One needs LOTS of training to get a carry permit, btw.

Doesn't that vary from state to state? I could be wrong, but I believe Texas requires a 5 hour course. That doesn't seem like much training.

As for training people.. they would have to carry at all times for it to be effective.

consider

Fort Hood… 2009 12 dead.. 32 wounded
Navy Yard near D.C. 2013 13 dead 4 wounded.

Training obviously isn't enough. Someone also has to be armed at all times.


John, I might be wrong, but our soldiers live in a "gun free zone" Armed Security Guards came to stop the carnage.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 2, 2015 - 10:35pm PT
It would seem that of late it's been safer for vets to serve in a war zone than to come home to America.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Dec 2, 2015 - 10:37pm PT
Seem...perhaps...depending on ones abilities of perception.

Actually...not hardly..not even close to the hazards of serving on the deck of an aircraft carrier in 'preacetime' Let alone Kandahar on a daily basis.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 2, 2015 - 10:43pm PT
My favorite juxtaposition as stated by the endless spin-zone media:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/03/us/san-bernardino-shooting.html

The Obumbalator in Chief says: "The one thing we do know is that we have a pattern now of mass shootings in this country that has no parallel anywhere else in the world, and there’s some steps we could take, not to eliminate every one of these mass shootings, but to improve the odds that they don’t happen as frequently."

Soooo... WHAT can we do to "improve the odds" according to him? Of course: More gun control.

But after the reported POTUS angst, the very next paragraph says:

"California has the strictest gun laws in the nation, according to the most recent report card by the Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence. It is among a handful of states that ban sale or possession of many assault weapons, including the most common models, although people who owned those firearms before they were banned are allowed to keep them. It was not known where and how the suspects obtained their weapons."

Soooo.... MORE GUN CONTROL is desperately needed! We MUST "stop the carnage."

Except that....

"California has the strictest gun laws in the nation..." and is LITERALLY the poster-child-state for what the POTUS (and now the Hillabeast) would LOVE to institute nationally.

"It was not known where and how the suspects obtained their weapons." But that pesky fact DOES NOT MATTER! What matters is that we CAN, somehow, certainly, with enough LAWS, the RIGHT LAWS, control this stuff, and we WILL "improve the odds," even though NOBODY has the foggiest causal clue WHAT drives these events.

Uh huh. Right.

Bring on Minority Report.
John M

climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 10:44pm PT
You are correct for Fort Hood. Thats why I said one would have to carry at all times. These things happen fairly quickly. My point was simply that training isn't enough. One has to have a weapon handy. I don't really trust most people to properly handle situations like this. Even with training. This is why I don't believe that more guns is the answer. If it were even remotely possible, banning all guns would be about the only thing that would help, and I don't believe thats possible, nor am I for it. The next thing to do is ban all semi and fully automatic weapons and only allow single shot weapons. That of course isn't going to happen. So the final thing to do is figure out why we are so violent. Thats also something that isn't going to happen anytime soon. We as humans are stuck in a vicious cycle of violence.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Dec 2, 2015 - 10:46pm PT
Mad bolter.."strictest gun control in the USA" isn't saying much. Sorta like saying slowest man a the olympics 100M sprint.

My god this whole conversation is so full of bullshit on both sides of the supposed argument that its ...

basically a comedy and a tragedy combined.

Fortunately it's a pointless issue that has almost no bearing on how 99.9 percent of Americans will die.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 2, 2015 - 10:48pm PT
"strictest gun control in the USA"

The very definition of an oxymoron.
John M

climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 10:49pm PT
3000 Americans a day have died from heart disease and cancer since this thread started.... so what is that like...15,000 people?

you say this as though people don't seem to care about this. Yet we do. Billions have been spent on these issues. So its a poor argument.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Dec 2, 2015 - 10:50pm PT
YER GUNNA DIE... odds are about 10,000 to 1 a bullet will do the job....

Yeah..even in America.
John M

climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 10:52pm PT
I see your point now. We exaggerate the danger. I agree.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Dec 2, 2015 - 10:52pm PT
you say this as though people don't seem to care about this. Yet we do. Billions have been spent on these issues. So its a poor argument.

Apparently they dont care about this...since iI have yet to see a single thread about it.

yet we have endless threads about a supposed serious threat that will almost certainly kill none of the people posting in them.

While what I mentioned WILL ABSOLUTELY kill 1/2 of us.
John M

climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 10:54pm PT
why do we need to discuss it when we already know that we have some of our best minds/doctors trying to solve it? Or do you believe that the issue is something beyond a physical problem?
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Dec 2, 2015 - 10:58pm PT
Just saying ..have a bit of perspective... gun control is one of the lowest problems america faces.. mortally or economically...

It's not worth 1 minute of discussion vs at least 50 other problems no one talks about.

Terrorism is even less of an issue than gun deaths in America...

Yet somehow everyone has gotten brainwashed into considering it worth spending billions of dollars on?

Wanna know what the real problem in America is...

Werner knows..

Americans are STUUUPID

Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:01pm PT
I can just see the Feds or the local SWAT going in and trying to figure who the perps are when everyone has their own gun and they all decide that "now's the time to start shooting back".

Yeah, right.

Carry on.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:05pm PT
Someone should have taken me up on my bet regarding the Mexican Cartel Hitmen.

Instead, appears it was Jihadist Jane and her Jihadist Husband doing the deed.

Gonna be interesting to see how the POTUS skates around the super thin ice on this one in the morning. Obviously he will reiterate his not going to call em for what they truly are routine so as not to offend anyone.

But by god, if this was another Cop on unarmed Blackman incident, he'd be all over it calling it for what it was. As he has done so well thus far.

Better yet, he'll blame it on....

madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:07pm PT
"strictest gun control in the USA" isn't saying much.

Actually it is saying a lot, particularly in the context of this latest mass-shooting.

California already bans both the sale and possession of the very weapons used. California already has the very gun-control laws that the left is advocating to go nationwide, so it has been for decades an empirical experiment in the value of such laws.

If you want to talk about not "saying much," the truth is that this (and other California incidents) demonstrates that you can't say much for the value of the exact sort of gun-control that the left wants to make national.

JohnM summed it up nicely: We need to get to the basis of why a TINY subset of people have become more murderous than we saw, say, 30 or 40 years ago. But, as he also noted, that's so difficult (and, I would add, contentious) that we are not going to discover the actual causal chains. Thus, gun-control is a genuine red herring and really only amounts to CONTROL simpliciter.

Free Americans don't want any part of more control, particularly when it can't be demonstrated to serve any useful purpose.

So, yes, while the odds of being a victim of this sort of incident are very, very low, the odds of the left spinning such incidents into "justifications" for imposing more and more CONTROLS are at 100%.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:09pm PT
So, yes, while the odds of being a victim of this sort of incident are very, very low, the odds of the left spinning such incidents into "justifications" for imposing more and more CONTROLS are at 100%.


I'll Agree with that. But then again.. I don't really care. Take every gun... give everyone 5 guns...

Not gunna matter either way. It's a dumb f*#king issue.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:13pm PT
Ski2, not one peep about Monsanto from you. Their operation globally the past 60 or so years has certainly played a major role in your latest rant regarding cancer and heart disease etc.

Thing about them, Monsanto that is, you will assuredly vote for one of their biggest key supporters next Nov to be our next POTUS.

Go figure.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:16pm PT
Monsanto is a MUCH bigger issue. Although I'd bet we would disagree as to why. I may be unaware of something regarding Cancer or Heart disease..however I am sure their agricultural product does not cause these health issues any more than any of their competitors..including so called organics.

In my mind it has to do with the legal and strategic issues regarding licensing of critical advanced productive agricultural strains. This will affect the lives and more realistically the security of way more people than any amount of guns in the USA.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:23pm PT
I'm getting tired of law enforcement having all the tools it needs to stop something like this before it happens, yet law enforcement chooses to squander its resources doing less important things.

Instead of 500 cops massing after the crime to come clean up the mess, it would have only taken TWO cops to arrest Farook & Wife the day before for felony weapons possession.

498 cops could have had the day off, and 14 innocent people would still be alive, if we could only get the cops to enforce existing laws, using the tools we already gave them.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:25pm PT
My fear of these attacks, terrorist or otherwise, is the erosion of rights that seems to result. The government has our bodies through ACA, our privacy through the Patriot act, and now they want to control our thoughts and talk lest we offend some wacko group prompting a murderous result. There is a big leftist movement afoot to disarm us so only the criminals, crazies and terrorists have firearms.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:25pm PT
It's a dumb f*#king issue.

I'm with you! There are MUCH bigger issues facing this nation, even considering all forms of easily preventable death! And NONE of the known solutions require mastermind controls that violate the basic principles of our republic.

I just wish that the left would recognize HOW dumb their relentless efforts to achieve CONTROL really are. THEY are the ones that make this an issue. Consequently, in the spirit of "eternal vigilance," liberty-minded people ARE going to fight back against the "thinking" that is all about imposing more (utterly useless) CONTROL.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:25pm PT
^^^^ Monsanto's Pesticides... not an issue.


Got it.


PS: Tell that to the over 225K plus Vietnam Vets alone that have died or are dying of cancer and other diseases related to... Agent Orange.

Of which, many of the same ingredients are contained in most of the general pesticide products that have been commonly used in agriculture throughout the world the past 50 years.

Now GMO's.



And so many lefty looons are carrying on about guns.


Too funneee!!!!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:46pm PT
...that will almost certainly kill none of the people posting in them.

Yeah, but it's getting to be sort of like belayers with grigris dropping people - you may not have been dropped, but these days pretty much everyone under the age of fifty has either been dropped, dropped someone, knows someone who has, or has witness it. Great when it isn't you, but the idea that's justification for saying it's not a serious problem is ludicrous.

...free americans...

Love the code-smithing around how the fringe right self-identifies these days.

Can graduate courses in Skousenology be far behind...
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:54pm PT
Hey, Chief, and exactly why is it the republicans are rabidly anti-Islam and spouting endlessly about Obama's lack of strategy on ISIS, but yet steadfastly block all administration requests for an AUMF. As usual, no surprises from the chickenhawk party when it comes to put up or shutup.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:57pm PT
how the fringe right self-identifies these days

"Fringe right?" LOL

What even IS that?

I for one can't "self identify" that way because this "self" can't "identify" what the phrase means.

The right is as much about CONTROL as is the left, just about different issues.

The right moans about "leftist masterminds," while the right wants to control gays, women's rights, and a host of other "moral issues." The left moans about "fascist right-wingers," while the left wants to control guns, drugs (ironically, like the right), and even thoughts (certainly speech). They are NO different. Same basic agenda, and neither understands liberty.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 3, 2015 - 12:01am PT
Oh, I see, so you do hit that libertarian sweet spot. Very Sko...

What is 'fringe right'?

And I'd ask the same: what are 'free americans'?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 3, 2015 - 12:06am PT
I'll help you see that you answered your own question....

what are 'free americans'?

Answer....

that libertarian sweet spot.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 3, 2015 - 12:26am PT
Well, just what kind of libertarian are you? They seem to be a veritable rainbow of fringe thinking. Are you of the secure hacienda, chemtrails, guns, gold standard, constitution-as-fossil, or the black-guberment-helicopter camp?

Oh, and we should be in good shape protection-wise unless of course a terrorist decides to take off on foot at a pace faster than brisk walk. They got nothing on 'fat guys on aid'. Exercise? F*#k no, who needs that? We've got guns! Sh#t, I know I feel safer.


Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 3, 2015 - 12:36am PT
Those don't look like California cops.

"The cops are well-groomed with muscled physiques
In butt town
Their tan uniforms are tailored in chic
In butt town"

East coast cops can get away with being all sloppy looking. Fat. Bad posture. Poor fitting uniform. That sh#t won't fly here. The crooks will laugh at them.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 3, 2015 - 12:45am PT
They seem to be a veritable rainbow of fringe thinking. Are you of the secure hacienda, chemtrails, guns, gold standard, constitution-as-fossil, or the black-guberment-helicopter camp?

Flat out, knee-slapping funny.

Also, flat out, knee-slapping straw-manning.

My position is simple: When you want a law to control me, you have to demonstrate how your negative rights are violated if such a control is not in place. Staying on topic here, my possession and carrying of a gun violates NONE of your rights. So, you have no right to try to control my possession and carrying of it.

If you want laws to control the "bad guys'" possession and carrying of a gun, because you are worried that they MIGHT violate one or more of your rights, then you merely have to get over two bars: 1) demonstrate how you can control the bad guys (who, you say, MIGHT violate one of your rights) without controlling me (who is neither violating nor potentially violating one of your rights); 2) demonstrate the causal connection between the proposed controls of the bad guys and the protection of your rights.

The gun-control crowd has done neither and doesn't even have a good idea about how to do either. ALL they can propose is to violate the well-established rights of everybody in the vague, disconnected hope that they can PERHAPS "affect the odds" of POTENTIAL violations of the rights of somebody. After all, "we've gotta do something!"

A classical libertarian believes that the default position should be to do nothing and that it takes getting over BOTH bars mentioned above before you should consider "doing something."
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Dec 3, 2015 - 12:52am PT
The gun-control crowd .... doesn't even have a good idea about how to do either.
Wrong.

Repeal the 2nd Amendment.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 3, 2015 - 12:55am PT

you got cops go'in to starbucks? they must be overpaid.

Cops and firemen get free brewed coffee almost anywhere in this town. Show up around 9:00 and the place looks like the cops descended on a crime scene.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 3, 2015 - 12:55am PT
Start by melting down 2/3 of the weapons currently in the possession of free americans. Title, license and insure the remaining hundred million guns.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 3, 2015 - 12:58am PT
Repeal the 2nd Amendment.

That was a mind-numbing suggestion insofar as it addressed neither of the points to which the word "idea" was referring.

The points were: 1) demonstrate how you can control the bad guys....

Oh, sheesh. Why bother?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 3, 2015 - 01:00am PT
Start by down 2/3 of the weapons currently in the possession of free americans.

How you gonna do it?

How you gonna do it without violating the rights of those free Americans?

Title, license and insure the remaining hundred million guns.

How's it going to have ANY effect on incidents like this latest one?

How's it going to TOUCH the bad guys that are the ones that need touching?


Edit: IUDs are already illegal. Oh, silly me. I mean IEDs. Well, I guess that depending upon whether you're left or right, it amounts to about the same thing.

Anyway, there should be NO IEDs in the possession of everyday citizens. Right? Not a 2/3 reduction! NONE!

So, there outta be a law! Oh, wait, there already is. Dang those criminals that just WILL NOT be controlled!
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Dec 3, 2015 - 01:16am PT
I know this is posted on CNN and that is always questionable but in reading this article and the links I'm wondering where the flaws are. So help me understand why would anyone defend this aspect of the NRA? Serious question.

Though I don't agree with much of what madbolter writes I do respect his opinion as well as a few others on this thread that at least appear to be able to think for themselves. So maybe he or they could take a stab at it and share their perspective.

Obviously any Republican might take offense at the tone of the article but if one can get past that I'd really be interested in knowing the "other side" of the why hasn't this happened yet.

Thanks

from http://edition.cnn.com/2015/12/02/opinions/wheeler-nra-guns-terrorists/index.html

David R. Wheeler is a freelance writer and a journalism professor at the University of Tampa. Follow him on Twitter: @David_R_Wheeler. The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of the author.

(CNN)During this holiday season, if some of your loved ones are Republican, consider giving them the gift of a reality check.

I know there are plenty of sane Republicans out there. I've met some. In fact, years ago, I was a registered Republican myself. That phase lasted right up to the point where I noticed a new world order of haves and have-nots, with terms dictated by Wall Street and Silicon Valley. Nowadays, I stare at the party in bewilderment.

The latest mind-numbing puzzle: The GOP is blocking a law that would prevent known and suspected terrorists from buying guns.

This is not just a what-if scenario. The nonpartisan Government Accountability Office recently released a report showing that from 2004 to 2014, people on terrorism watch lists successfully purchased guns no fewer than 2,043 times.

Yes, you read that right.

In light of the horrific shooting in San Bernardino, California, that killed at least 14 people, President Barack Obama spoke on Wednesday about the need to reform gun laws.

He also added, "For those who are concerned about terrorism of, you know, some may be aware of the fact that we have a no fly list where people can't get on planes, but those same people who we don't allow to fly could go into a store right now in the United States and buy a firearm and there's nothing that we can do to stop them."

There are 700,000 people on the terrorist watch list, and when these people tried to legally purchase guns, they had a success rate of 91%.

"Membership in a terrorist organization does not prohibit a person from possessing firearms or explosives under current federal law," the GAO warned back in 2010.

This situation has a simple solution: Pass a law that stops known and suspected terrorists from buying guns.

In fact, just such a bill was introduced earlier this year, and it has a pretty straightforward name: The Denying Firearms and Explosives to Dangerous Terrorists Act of 2015. It was introduced by Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-California, and Rep. Peter King, R-New York -- one of those sane Republicans I was talking about.

Can you guess which villain defeated the bill? I'll give you a hint: The initials are NRA.

"It's sort of a knee-jerk reaction," King told the New York Daily News. "The National Rifle Association is strongly opposed to it, and the fact is we have only a handful of Republican co-sponsors."

That's right. The National Rifle Association is so powerful that it can ensure that common-sense bills keeping guns away from potential terrorists are blocked in Congress.

In objecting to versions of the bill, the NRA used the same worn-out rhetoric they've been using for decades; namely, passing such a law won't stop criminals from illegally acquiring guns.

There is no law that would stop all criminals from ever using a gun. But we need every tool possible to fight gun violence, especially in an era when mass shootings have become a regular occurrence and when terrorists use guns as their weapon of choice.

When George W. Bush was president, he was one of those Republicans who often ignored calls for a reality check. But even he understood the need to fix this loophole in the law. In 2007, his administration proposed the legislation, but by the time it was introduced two years later, the NRA called up its buddies in Congress and stopped the bill.

After the terror attacks in Paris last month, some gun-rights advocates in the United States pointed out that France's strict gun-control laws did not stop the violence. But there are three important counterarguments.

First, we don't know how many would-be attackers were successfully stopped by France's laws. Crimes that don't happen don't make headlines. For national security reasons, it's rare to hear about thwarted plots.

Second, the numbers show a definitive contrast regarding gun violence between our countries. In France, the gun death rate is about 2.83 per 100,000 people; in the U.S. it's 10.69 per 100,000 people. In other words, the U.S. gun death rate is more than triple that of France.

The third counterargument, and perhaps most important one, is the message we're sending by failing to act.

If we can't close a loophole that allows known and suspected terrorists to legally purchase guns, what does that say about us? What does that say about special interest groups' ability to "buy" politicians? What are our children learning about how democracy works in America when even the majority of gun owners support laws preventing people on terror watch lists from buying guns?

This holiday season, in addition to the gifts of sweaters, ties and books that you're giving your Republican loved ones, also consider giving them a reality check.

Their party has been overtaken by zealots, and we need rational voices to come to the rescue.

Additional links:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/11/16/why-the-nra-opposed-laws-to-prevent-suspected-terrorists-from-buying-guns/

http://www.feinstein.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/files/serve/?File_id=e0e0dab0-d7d7-4dca-83da-7b68f5be2b47

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 3, 2015 - 01:31am PT
There's those 'free americans' again; I love that one.

No one's rights were being violated by the guy open carrying in the street in CS a bit ago and so 911 wouldn't dispatch on it. Well, they weren't being violated until they were violently violated.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 3, 2015 - 01:41am PT
Thank you for your approach to the question, Delhi Dog. I've gotta head to bed, but I'll say two things in response to your question:

1) I'm no friend (or member) of the NRA. I often find their positions by turn: unprincipled, knee-jerk, hyper-defensive, and pandering.

That said....

2) What concerns me about the phrase "known or suspected terrorists" used as justification for legislating away rights is that "terrorists" is itself not a well-defined term, and "known or suspected" does NOT equate to "convicted."

Every citizen IS a law-abiding citizen unless CONVICTED otherwise by a jury of peers. The mere fact that the bought-and-paid-for government-of-the-moment labels somebody as a "known or suspected terrorist" doesn't equate to a conviction that justifies infringing their rights.

See, the problem is that there is precious little "watching" of the people on these "watch lists!" Witness the Boston Marathon bombers. These "watch lists" are not worth the paper (bytes) they are written on.

The net effect is that the government USES these incidents to froth up the public in a bid for yet more on-paper control, when it also knows full well that it lacks the capacity to make GOOD use of that control once it has it. CONTROL simpliciter is what power-mongers want. "Your best interest" is the lie it tells to soothe you to sleep while it forces your head down onto the pillow.

Oh, wait. Here on a public forum I'm bad-mouthing the intentions and basic integrity of our duly-elected government. I must be a closet terrorist. AND I've publicly stated that I'm armed! Call the FBI and Homeland Security! Put me on a "watch list."

See, the word "terrorist" has virtually no meaning, since it can be cast to mean anything needed for convenience. Yet it is employed like a technical term with rigorous meaning. It's all a giant shell game.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 3, 2015 - 01:45am PT
Well, they weren't being violated until they were violently violated.

And THAT is the point. We do not live in Minority Report! We do NOT engage in pre-crime enforcement!

We do not presume to know somebody's actual intentions until they act on them.

If you want a pre-crime police state, then MOVE to one of them. I hear that Singapore is a nice place to live. There's not even graffiti to disturb the splendor of the almost complete control.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 3, 2015 - 02:22am PT
CONTROL simpliciter is what power-mongers want.

The paranoia is palpable. And it's all an intellectual hyper-fantasy. But, taking up the fantasy, just how long do you suppose that free americans could hold out once the guberment turned off electricity, gas, water, gasoline, food distribution and shutdown fast food joints. I'd give'em a couple of days to a couple of weeks, max.



Oh, and let me guess, ISIS rhetoric clearly incited this couple to an act of workplace violence, but incendiary gop campaign rhetoric had no influence on the planned parenthood shooter. Got it.
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Dec 3, 2015 - 04:58am PT
Thanks for the reply MB and your thoughts. You too Healyje:-)

I do get the "innocent until proven guilty" part of our system. And that is something I hold to be sacred. And our government doesn't have the best track record (witness the Patriot Act for example) as it applies to citizens.
I also have first hand experience with red flags and being stopped at the "border".

A short story for example...We were returning to the US a few years ago and as we were going through passport control in LA our youngest daughter's (then she was 17) name came up on some "watch list".

She had to answer some questions and the scrutiny was real. Since we were coming from India somehow her name came up with connections to the Mumbai bombings that had recently happened. Long story short there obviously was a "glitch" in the system and the officer had the common sense to see we were a family, we were teachers returning for summer vacation and we had all the right documentation to back that up. We've also been to many of the ME countries so the combinations might have been the tipping point.

It didn't bother me though. I was glad someone was checking even if they were wrong. Would I have felt the same if they took her away for further interrogation? Probably, but I also know that we had nothing to hide too so although it would have been a hassle I get it.

Surely if we're all working together and have the best interest of our country in mind we can make some of what is proposed in that article work. Maybe I'm just naive and a dummy but I do know the NRA does not have the best interest of everyone in mind, but rather the money made in the selling of fear to John Q. public.

Unfortunately our country's education has been going downhill for years and one of the major results of that is the inability for the public to think critically and to question what is being put out by the media, the government, and the internet wankers...

So, I have no answers but it sure frustrates me too see how so many of us have become such sheep.
Already you can see posters here pulling the Muslim card simply because these shooters have names that sound Islamic. Maybe there is a connection maybe not, but certainly the brain trust here on SP isn't too keen on the idea of "innocent until proven guilty."

Throw a Trump card into that and good luck USA. Right now it's guilty until proven innocent or in this case, "terrorist" until proven not.
little Z

Trad climber
un cafetal en Naranjo
Dec 3, 2015 - 05:00am PT
Farouk???? I told y'all not to piss him off.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 05:29am PT
madbolter posted
My position is simple: When you want a law to control me, you have to demonstrate how your negative rights are violated if such a control is not in place. Staying on topic here, my possession and carrying of a gun violates NONE of your rights. So, you have no right to try to control my possession and carrying of it.

This is nice libertarian rhetoric but has no foundation in current law or the constitution. I agree with the concept as a principal to be considered but we regulate all kinds of things that don't harm other people. Additionally, it's more than a little bit of a stretch to argue that weapons are not inherently dangerous. I sympathize with your desire to carry a weapon but the reality of how guns are used has created a clear line where one cannot both believe in our current regime of widespread gun ownership and also pretend to care about gun violence. Your position (and that of our country at large, currently) can accurately be characterized as "my right to carry a gun is more important than the public's right to protect itself from gun violence."
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2015 - 06:03am PT
For those arguing that gun reforms are ineffective I suggest a review of the original "Assault weapons" ban and it's subsequent repeal. Then try to argue away the facts.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 06:10am PT
The assault weapons ban from the 90's may have had some effective elements but in general gun enthusiasts appear to be correct that a lot of the criteria used by legislators are focused on cosmetic features and not performance. Real legislation would focus on holding people/companies responsible for the guns they sell/own, limiting rate of fire/caliber and limiting magazine size. All of this will require a significant culture change with a public health focus similar to smoking or obesity. Places we can start is with demanding strict record keeping on gun use, lifting the bans on public health research related to gun safety and encourage public health professionals and institutions to address gun safety and violent culture as an issue. This will require that we lift state bans on these things such as the measure in Florida.

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/08/doctors-cant-ask-about-guns/375566/
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2015 - 06:13am PT
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 06:15am PT
How can he possibly know that? I bet he doesn't even own a gun!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 3, 2015 - 06:33am PT
How can he possibly know that?

Yeah, how can he know that since the NRA has outlawed research into gun violence.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2015 - 06:34am PT
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2015 - 06:55am PT
Is it?
Or is that just your skew?
Maybe talk to some people who actually know me.
Being passionate about important issues does not equate to being an angry person.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2015 - 07:04am PT





172
SAN ANTONIO - Police have charged an elderly man with shooting his neighbor because the victim parked in front of his home.

According to information released by the San Antonio Police Department, 44-year-old Manuel Lopez parked in front of his neighbor's home on Elvira Street on Sunday afternoon.

That's when investigators say 74-year-old Franklin Martinez came out of his home and began yelling at Lopez about where he had parked.

When Lopez said he would not move his car, police say Martinez shot Lopez in the head.

Lopez was taken to University Hospital and listed in critical condition. He is expected to survive his injuries.

Martinez drove off, but was caught in Leon Valley. He has been charged with aggravated assault with a deadly weapon.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 07:10am PT
It's clearly Lopez's fault for not identifying the threat and having his gun already drawn.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Dec 3, 2015 - 07:29am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]


Forget about going to gun shop let's just build the damn things..
zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 07:29am PT
Re: San Antonio

How aggravating.

Same thing happened in San Diego a couple of years ago, but I think the victim died.



Gary

Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
Dec 3, 2015 - 07:32am PT
Apogee, did The Chief pay off his bet?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 07:36am PT
What was the bet?
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 3, 2015 - 07:42am PT
Start by melting down 2/3 of the weapons currently in the possession of free americans.

Of course nothing to be done about the over 10 million plus ILLEGAL weapons on the streets. Nothing.

So the logic goes, take the guns away from all the law abiding citz and allow the criminals to keep theirs.

Next thing you are going to post Healyje is some very logical statement such as this one...





Apogee, did The Chief pay off his bet?

He nor anyone else took it. Gary. Go figure that one. Twit....




So here's your "logical" solutions Healyje (and just about all you other freaking LOONS here).

1.Take guns away from all Law Abiding Americans but allow the criminals to maintain custody of theirs cus their isn't any way you will ever get them turn theirs in nor confiscate them.

2. Mandate that Cops stop patrolling the streets thus no longer having the ability to racially profile individuals in order to outright murder them.

3. Open the borders to all and anyone allowing them free access to this country then giving them all the free tax payer paid for benefits that are given US citz.

4. Last but not least, Tax the living shet out of carbon fuel producers and emitters cus by god, it's all Climate Change's fault.

Got it...


[Click to View YouTube Video]
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Dec 3, 2015 - 07:43am PT
$10 ?

or voluntary account deactivation/self deportation

I would take the latter

Derp

------


Philo - Nice meme.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Dec 3, 2015 - 07:46am PT
Lost in LIBERLAND


+1 chief
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 3, 2015 - 07:48am PT
Hey Gary, next possible "soft target" would most certainly NEVER be a Cal-Trans office such as yours with "Gun Free Zone" signs plastered all over the exteriors of all doors leading into the building mandated by our loving Governor.


apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 3, 2015 - 07:55am PT
Chief, f*#k off.

Twit.


Have a nice day.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 3, 2015 - 07:59am PT
Yo Apogee...



When you've got the fringe righties here all heated up you know you're telling the truth.

Hmmmmm, (scratching my head).... I must be telling the "gospel truth" as I get ALL you Lefty crankaloons far above and beyond the boiling temp on a regular basis.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2015 - 08:01am PT
No you make us laugh. We respond to your babbling lunacy because you are easy.
You are a soft target.
MikeMc

Social climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 08:04am PT
^^^ you're
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2015 - 08:06am PT
Got it.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 3, 2015 - 08:08am PT
Hey Philo!!!






Have fun you logical lefty LOOONS.

Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 3, 2015 - 08:18am PT
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2015 - 08:18am PT
Farook and Malik were dressed in black masks and tactical gear, armed with long guns and pistols, when they entered the holiday party as it was in full swing, police said. Before they fled, they had killed 14 people and wounded 17 others.

Two of the four weapons used in the shooting were legally purchased, according to Meredith Davis, public information officer for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives in Los Angeles. She said agents would "continue to investigate leads concerning the two additional firearms
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Dec 3, 2015 - 08:20am PT
No you make us laugh. We respond to your babbling lunacy because you are easy.
You are a soft target.

Funny. Looks the opposite to me.

Chief regularly posts inflammatory crap. Everyone knows his game. Yet, he's got a following... more like a hate squad... that does its best to insult/attack/offend him.

It's all very pavlovian.
zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 08:20am PT
Number nine, number nine

Sometimes ya just gots to have a gun (or more)

(KARK) Authorities in Van Buren County, Arkansas say they were forced to shoot nine dogs in order to recover the body of pet hoarder who passed away inside her rural home.

The dogs had already consumed part of the woman’s body.

“When the deputies arrived on the scene to get in to her, the dogs were vicious. You couldn’t even get into the trailer to check on her to see what needed to be done,” Van Buren County Sheriff Scott Bradley said.
WBraun

climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 08:21am PT
Farook and Malik were dressed in black masks and tactical gear

The bodies after being shot during the so called gun battle were in regular street clothes and the woman was in dress and high heels.

Photoshop crew is standing by to fix their fukup .....
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 3, 2015 - 08:24am PT
Two of the four weapons used in the shooting were legally purchased,


And ILLEGALLY utilized by the two perps. None of the weps utilized by the individuals yesterday were legally registered to the individuals. Thus rendering them totally ILLEGAL by both Strict CA and Fed current Gun Control Acquisition and Ownership laws.


Also, according to the logic that abounds here, the actual registered owners of the weapons utilized yesterday should be held totally accountable for allowing the perps access to their weapons. I concur 100%.
John M

climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 08:25am PT
I don't know if this has been posted before. It seems to be a well written article.

If you disagree with it, instead of sneering at me for finding it believable, why not try to refute it.

http://www.vox.com/2015/10/3/9444417/gun-violence-united-states-america

watch the video. Its very interesting.

philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2015 - 08:29am PT
Dear America: Here's Your Gun Solution
2 hours ago | Updated 1 hour ago
Sara Benincasa Comedian; author of "DC Trip" (Adaptive Books)

Bloomberg via Getty Images
Here's some common sense for you. I want gun ownership to be as boring and annoying as car ownership. I want you to go to some Department of Weapons and sit for hours. I want folks who own guns to prove their skill, their mental and physical health, and to be licensed and reviewed over the years just as happens with our driver's licenses. You earn the right to own and drive a vehicle; earn the right to own and use a gun.
Quibble with me over semantics if you want to; what is a "right" vs. what is a "privilege." I'll be busy with my friends and colleagues trying to prevent more unnecessary deaths.
Gun ownership isn't some inalienable right granted by God. Remember, the Constitution was written by men coming out of a long and bloody war near the end of the 18th century. It was written for their time.
It also included the "right" to own a human being.
Things change.
Folks evolve.
I want a voluntary federal buyback program for firearms, with hunting weapons and vintage/historic weapons exempt. I want the sale of weapons to be even more tightly controlled than the sale of Xanax and other controlled substances. I want advertising for firearms to be as regulated as DTC (direct to consumer) advertising for pharmaceuticals ("May cause shortness of breath, long-lasting boners, etc.") We can do all of this. It'll likely create jobs, believe it or not: regulators, educators, enforcers.
It will not end murder. It won't end rape or robbery either. It will make it harder to commit those crimes. There will be a black market for guns as there is for any coveted item in a capitalist society. (And I'm not anti-capitalism, btw. I'm a big fan! Sorry, hippies. I do love you guys, by the way, you're very nice people with good instincts.)
Continuing education credits for gun owners should be required, just as they are with medical professionals.
When you have a greater ability to take a human life, you have a greater responsibility to prove your fitness to wield the tools that may create that end.
And that's how the f*#k you well-regulate a goddamn American militia.
This post originally appeared on Medium.
More:
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 3, 2015 - 08:30am PT
John M!



VOX = FOX of the Liberal Media


John M

climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 08:34am PT
so you didn't read it or watch the video..

Check..

by the way.. I have no idea what vox is. I just read the article. Sometimes I even read articles from fox news. I do realize how biased it is. I try to see past the bias and understand what is being said.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 3, 2015 - 08:45am PT
Ah, WRONG John M.


Read the "original" article and watched the video/s back in Oct when it was "updated", pub'd and posted on some other LOON initiated anti-gun thread here on ST.

http://www.vox.com/2015/10/5/9454161/gun-violence-solution

http://www.vox.com/2015/10/3/9444417/gun-violence-united-states-america

Etc....


EDIT:


VOX = FOX of the Loon Liberal Media. FACT!
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 3, 2015 - 08:47am PT
Philo posted:

"Two of the four weapons used in the shooting were legally purchased..."



Since when are Straw Purchases legal?

Not in California, they aren't. You can look it up.

Philo, you need to think before you post this sh#t. Seriously.
John M

climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 08:51am PT
so how about refuting it if you disagree with what it says. Instead of just sneering. I dont[ know all of the background facts on this subject, so I can't refute what it says and shows. It seems logical to me, but I don't have enough history with this to know what is really a fact and what is a skewed interpretation.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 3, 2015 - 08:54am PT
Philo, you need to think before you post this sh#t. Seriously.

I'm tellin' ya, he's got digital turrets syndrome. When it is really bad he deletes and denies.
monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 3, 2015 - 08:58am PT
What make you think they were straw purchases, Chaz?

Farook could have bought those guns thru a private sale.
SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
Dec 3, 2015 - 09:16am PT
He nor anyone else took it. Gary. Go figure that one. Twit....

Perhaps because you took cheap to a new low level.

Susan
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 09:18am PT
"Philo, you need to think before you post this sh#t. Seriously."

That's impossible.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 3, 2015 - 09:31am PT
Monolith writes:

"What make you think they were straw purchases, Chaz?"



In California you have to go through a licensed gun dealer, with paperwork, transfer fee, and waiting period to legally transfer a gun to anyone outside your immediate family. ( your own brother is not considered immediate family, btw - he still needs to fill out the forms )

Buying a gun for a former roommate is the definition of straw purchase. The crime confirms it.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Dec 3, 2015 - 09:43am PT
Gun ownership isn't some inalienable right granted by God. Remember, the Constitution was written by men coming out of a long and bloody war near the end of the 18th century. It was written for their time.
It also included the "right" to own a human being.

Philo posted the above, and he should stop posting things that are obviously and provably false.
There is no "right" to own a human being in the US Constitution, even before the 13th Amendment.
At the time of the Constitution was ratified, lots of states outlawed slavery (although some of course permitted it).
If there were a Constitutional "right" to own a slave, then it would have been impossible for any state to (validly) outlaw it.
State law cannot trump a Constitutional right. (If you're interested in that point, read up on the "Supremacy Clause.")

It would be correct to say that the US Constitution as originally ratified acknowledged that slavery existed in parts of the US at that time.
But that's not what Philo wrote.

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 09:51am PT
It was implicitly allowed. There was a very robust debate on the issue and the northerners lost the argument. You can't get to a 3/5 compromise without very much allowing for the legality of slavery.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-Fifths_Compromise

You'll note that this is in the body of the Constitution. They thought addressing slavery's impact on elections was more important than anything in the Bill of Rights and they appear to have bent over backwards to avoid using the word "slavery" to make themselves feel better.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 09:52am PT
There's a lot uncertainty about viable solutions for gun violence.

Unfortunately, answers are harder to come by since for the past 20 years, the NRA has flexed its muscles to block federal funding of such research.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Dec 3, 2015 - 09:55am PT
HDDJ what you wrote is correct but it in now way contradicts that there was no RIGHT to slavery in the Constitution.
Again, if there were such a right, then no state could have outlawed slavery.
Many (most) states outlawed slavery at the time the Constitution was ratified.
Ergo, what Philo wrote was false.
This is really just elementary logic and history--there is no reason to be contentious about it.

Edit for those of you who are completely ignorant of fundamental principles of US law:
If you have a federal right (based on either a federal statute or the US Constitution), then no state can validly abridge that right. An example would be the "right" to an abortion (which should not be right because it is based on illegitimate liberal activist judges improper "interpretation" of the Constitution, but that's a separate point).
If a state law conflicts with your federal "right" to an abortion, then that state law is invalid an unenforceable.
If there were a federal "right" to slavery under the original US Constitution, no state could have prohibited it.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Dec 3, 2015 - 10:01am PT
Connecticut Sen. Chris Murphy tweeted a powerful message to those who lazily offer "thoughts and prayers" to victims of the San Bernardino shooting.

Chris Murphy
‏@ChrisMurphyCT
Your "thoughts" should be about steps to take to stop this carnage. Your "prayers" should be for forgiveness if you do nothing - again.
monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 3, 2015 - 10:04am PT
Chaz, the gun could have been bought out of state.

When you call it a straw purchase, you make the seller guilty as well, and so far, the feds have not made that claim.

How about we just wait for all the details of the gun history?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 3, 2015 - 10:10am PT
That would be illegal, too.

As much as I'd like to go home with some of the guns I see at Cabela's in Marysville ( WA ), all I can do with my California ID is look.

Plenty of laws, already on the books, had they been enforced, should have stopped this before it even started.
monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 3, 2015 - 10:12am PT
Yes, illegal, but not a straw sale.

Cabela's in Marysville ( WA ) would not be a private purchase.

Farook got the guns. Where in the process could the law have been enforced?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 3, 2015 - 10:15am PT
It's being reported he got guns from his former roommate. In California. Nothing legal about that.

To legally buy any gun from anyone, you have to do it in the state where you reside. That's already Federal law.
monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 3, 2015 - 10:16am PT
Illigal, but not a straw purchase.

Generally, one can purchase out of state, as long as you are satisfying the laws of both states.

No doubt Farook had some illegalities, but how would you enforce the law in this situation?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 3, 2015 - 10:20am PT
So that would be the exact opposite of "legally purchased", which is what Philo posted.

Show me the path to legalization any of these guns could have possibly taken to get into Farook's possession.
monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 3, 2015 - 10:22am PT
I already said there were probably some illegalities.

Still, not a straw sale.

Do you know what a straw sale is?

The guns were legally purchased by the last legal owner.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2015 - 10:24am PT
If you don't like my re-post then complain to the author of it not about me.


Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2015 - 08:29am PT
Dear America: Here's Your Gun Solution
2 hours ago | Updated 1 hour ago
Sara Benincasa Comedian; author of "DC Trip" (Adaptive Books)

I posted the byline in the post. learn to read.

And for my "friends" I'll post what ever and when ever I want.
Get over it.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 3, 2015 - 10:29am PT
"Do you know what a straw sale is?"


Yup.

Someone who either can't pass a background check ( impossible for a California resident ) or who doesn't want their identity known to the government ( "No doubt Farook had some illegalities, but how would you enforce the law in this situation?" ) uses a third party to up-arm.
monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 3, 2015 - 10:31am PT
No, a straw purchase is when one makes a purchase from an FFL with the intent of illegal distribution.

You need to show that the last legal purchase was done with the intent of illegal distribution.

Just because a gun was distributed later illegally, does not make it a straw purchase.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2015 - 10:31am PT
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 3, 2015 - 10:35am PT
At the time of the Constitution was ratified, lots of states outlawed slavery (although some of course permitted it).

No.

At the time the constitution was ratified, no states outlawed slavery. Some states (5 of the original 13) outlawed the sale and importation of slaves within their borders within a couple decades.

Vermont (14th State) was the first state to outlaw slavery, and they didn't do it as a state of the Union, but as the Vermont Free state before it was part of the United States, and before the Constitution. Other states freed persons born in the state, but didn't necessarily free existing enslaved persons ( New York)

That didn't mean you were free in Vermont or any other state by virtue of being in that state.. Article four of the constitution includes the fugitive slave clause.

No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, but shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due.

Not only can you be sent back to a slave state, but your service or labor isn't discharged in the "free state". The constitution thus expressly supported slavery.
That remained in place until the passage of the 13th amendment despite Lincoln's emancipation proclamation, which only applied to states in rebellion and was probably unconstitutional.
That's the reason the Underground Railroad ended in Canada.

The Dread Scott decision tested that clause. Here's the law of the land in 1857 until the passage of the 13th amendment.


On March 6, 1857, Chief Justice Roger B. Taney delivered the majority opinion. Taney ruled that:

Any person descended from Africans, whether slave or free, is not a citizen of the United States, according to the Constitution.
The Ordinance of 1787 could not confer either freedom or citizenship within the Northwest Territory to non-white individuals.
The provisions of the Act of 1820, known as the Missouri Compromise, were voided as a legislative act, since the act exceeded the powers of Congress, insofar as it attempted to exclude slavery and impart freedom and citizenship to non-white persons in the northern part of the Louisiana Purchase.[11]

The Court had ruled that African Americans had no claim to freedom or citizenship. Since they were not citizens, they did not possess the legal standing to bring suit in a federal court. As slaves were private property, Congress did not have the power to regulate slavery in the territories and could not revoke a slave owner's rights based on where he lived. This decision nullified the essence of the Missouri Compromise, which divided territories into jurisdictions either free or slave. Speaking for the majority, Taney ruled that because Scott was simply considered the private property of his owners, that he was subject to the Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution, prohibiting the taking of property from its owner "without due process".
( Wikipedia)

So The Supreme Court of the United States in a ruling which overrode state law, used the fifth amendment clause against illegal search and seizure to override any rights due blacks. ALL BLACKS.

as Taney explained:
It is difficult at this day to realize the state of public opinion in regard to that unfortunate race which prevailed in the civilized and enlightened portions of the world at the time of the Declaration of Independence, and when the Constitution of the United States was framed and adopted; but the public history of every European nation displays it in a manner too plain to be mistaken. They had for more than a century before been regarded as beings of an inferior order, and altogether unfit to associate with the white race, either in social or political relations, and so far unfit that they had no rights which the white man was bound to respect.[12]

Apparently he didn't consider England a European nation, or his Dickinson law degree failed him. Their slavery abolition act was in 1833. Their de facto end of slavery began around the revolutionary war before the Declaration of Independence. Slavery had never, in fact been authorized either by statute or common law in England and Wales.

In a 1772 English ruling (Somerset v. Stewart, Somerset being a black slave suing for freedom) Lord Mansfield said from the Kings Bench:
The state of slavery is of such a nature, that it is incapable of now being introduced by Courts of Justice upon mere reasoning or inferences from any principles, natural or political; it must take its rise from positive law; the origin of it can in no country or age be traced back to any other source: immemorial usage preserves the memory of positive law long after all traces of the occasion; reason, authority, and time of its introduction are lost; and in a case so odious as the condition of slaves must be taken strictly, the power claimed by this return was never in use here; no master ever was allowed here to take a slave by force to be sold abroad because he had deserted from his service, or for any other reason whatever; we cannot say the cause set forth by this return is allowed or approved of by the laws of this kingdom, therefore the black must be discharged.

The precise opposite of the fugitive slave clause, and penned 85 years earlier when the colonies were part of England.

I lived in Frederick, Maryland for about 20 years. The courthouse ( now city hall) was across the street from Taney's home and Francis Scott Keys home (Taney married Key's sister). I think they are now museums.

On the courthouse lawn, the two people commemorated with memorials are John Marshall and Roger Brooke Taney and I walked by a statue of that odious pig of a jurist every time I had business in the courthouse.


One of the blacker moments in the Supreme Court's defense of individual liberty.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 10:44am PT
Blahblah posted
HDDJ what you wrote is correct but it in now way contradicts that there was no RIGHT to slavery in the Constitution.
Again, if there were such a right, then no state could have outlawed slavery.

The Constitution didn't explicitly protect any individual rights at all so in that very technical way philo is "wrong." Pointing out that he's "wrong" is meaningless in that neither the Constitution nor the Bill of Rights did anything to protect Americans from slavery or indentured servitude and in fact created mechanisms to accommodate their existence. You're kind of taking a long walk to avoid the substance of his argument which is that the authors of the Constitution both lived in very different times with very different ideas of morality and also expected that we would revise the Constitution. I seem to recall Jefferson fully expected we would have torn the thing up by now.


Farouk posted
hahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I told you crankloons (Phillo) that is was an F'n Muslim!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Congratulations on your racism. You're clearly very proud.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 3, 2015 - 10:59am PT
Gun ownership isn't some inalienable right granted by God. Remember, the Constitution was written by men coming out of a long and bloody war near the end of the 18th century. It was written for their time.

References to the constitution/bill-of-rights are actually red herrings in this present discussion. Both reference what were taken by the founders (federalists and anti-federalists alike) to be pre-existing rights. Neither granted rights to individuals. Both were designed to limit government power, so as to protect these rights.

If there were no government at all, we would have the (negative) right to life. We collectively instantiate some form of government so as to (hopefully) better protect that right than we could all alone.

But, since the right to life is not granted by any document and pre-exists all forms of government, "philo" is patently incorrect in asserting that gun ownership is not an inalienable right.

In terms of the implication relation, the logic of the right to gun ownership is very tight:

right-to-life > right-to-self-defense > right-to-the-means-of-self-defense.

That final (also inalienable) right is not "unlimited," as it necessarily references defense against likely INDIVIDUAL threats. Nukes, for example, are not individual threats. Protection against WMDs is one reason why we form governments: to provide defense from collective threats.

As long as guns are the weapon of choice among criminals and terrorists, there simply is no legitimate argument against the INDIVIDUAL right to the appropriate means (namely: an individual's own gun) to INDIVIDUAL self-defense.

Arguments referencing car registration miss an important point: You can't put a car in your pocket and thereby trivially avoid "detection." Criminals cannot trivially HIDE their cars, thereby avoiding the scrutiny that would accompany a car on the road with no license plates or registration tag. So, the title-and-register scheme simply won't have any effect on criminal possession of guns. Again, this is a "common sense" idea that targets entirely the wrong demographic.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2015 - 11:05am PT
If you don't like my re-post then complain to the author of it not about me.


Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2015 - 08:29am PT
Dear America: Here's Your Gun Solution
2 hours ago | Updated 1 hour ago
Sara Benincasa Comedian; author of "DC Trip" (Adaptive Books)

I posted the byline in the post. learn to read.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Dec 3, 2015 - 11:05am PT
Congratulations on your racism. You're clearly very proud.

Racism?

Muslims are all one race?
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 3, 2015 - 01:21pm PT
Have they figured out what the right wingers did to this devout moderate Muslim to put him over the edge so far that he was forced into his murderous actions? Could it be the "holiday songs" at the party, or an image of Jesus he mistook as a cartoon of Mohammed, or could it be the transsexual surgery health benefits he was awarded with in his generous benefit package? Inquiring minds want to know.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Dec 3, 2015 - 01:58pm PT
It is always interesting to check back on these type threads to see how many times and different ways the same things can be said over and over and over again..

Thanks for giving us the feebleminded perspective.
Gary

Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
Dec 3, 2015 - 01:58pm PT
Would you mind repeating that?
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 3, 2015 - 02:07pm PT
Congratulations on your racism. You're clearly very proud.

So Farouk is a racist cus he made the right call on who did the terrible deed.

Had I been correct in my claim that it was Cartel Hitmen (which no took me up on my bet), I would have also been a racist cus they were of Mexican origin.

Another Liberal logical conclusion.


Go figure.


Carry on..... This thread is getting more hilarious by the page.


And SUSAN, hows them fingers doing?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 3, 2015 - 03:07pm PT
Carry on with your important effort....

;-)

Apparently an important effort to tell us to carry on....

;-)
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Dec 3, 2015 - 03:30pm PT
References to the constitution/bill-of-rights are actually red herrings in this present discussion

Damn striaght.
The fact that the unlawful won't follow the constitution means there is no sense to having a constitution.

Same thing with laws, right?
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 03:32pm PT
The Chief - Muslim is not a race; the word refers to being a follower of a religion.

Race refers to inherited physical characteristics of a subset of humans that distinguishes that group from another subset.

"Mexican," is a nationality, also not what is commonly referred to as race, except by bigots.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 3, 2015 - 03:38pm PT
Thank you Happiegirl for reaffirming my point as to the illogical post regarding Farouk displaying "racism" by making the Muslim claim of the perps.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 3, 2015 - 03:48pm PT
The fact that the unlawful won't follow the constitution means there is no sense to having a constitution.

Same thing with laws, right?

Intentionally obtuse.

The point of a constitution is to define and constrain a theoretically law-abiding government.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 3, 2015 - 03:54pm PT
^^^ I got it. I was just having fun with you. ;-)
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 3, 2015 - 04:04pm PT
You're ruining my fun...

I am SO, so very sorry.

But I need the help of others to get all ranted up.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Dec 3, 2015 - 04:05pm PT
Not obtuse by any means. Logical step from your conclusions.

The tenents of gun ownership are being challenged by no other then the NRA and Texas.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/11/17/1451133/-Texas-representatives-notices-war-refugees-could-buy-guns-in-Texas-duly-freaks-out

Seems the thought of a good refugee with a gun outweighs the thought of a bad refugee with a gun. Can't you guys just get more guns to offset this dilemma, more guns are better?
Where is the out cry about the slippery slope, or your no laws simce illegals will still get guns?

It might be fun to sit back watch one side devour itself over their own fears.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 3, 2015 - 04:46pm PT
Logical step from your conclusions.

Only in some alternate, logically-impossible universe in which logic as we conceive of it doesn't exist.

Just as there is no point in adopting a constitution for a government that you KNOW from the start isn't going to abide by it, there is no point in adopting legislation that you KNOW from the start that the target demographic isn't going to abide by it.

There IS a point to laws for law-abiding citizens. But gun-control laws generally are not aimed at them.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Dec 3, 2015 - 05:05pm PT
You don't like laws aimed at guns even though you have no proof nor any idea what they may or may not prevent. If it were to stop just one or maybe two of these instances a year, would they be worth it then?


BTW
Isn't the constitution just laws?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 3, 2015 - 05:36pm PT
You don't like laws aimed at guns even though you have no proof nor any idea what they may or may not prevent.

So, you've helped make on of my points already: Nobody has established what these gun-control laws might or might not ACTUALLY accomplish. We're attempting to legislate in an empirical vacuum, with wildly conflicting "data" trotted out by both "sides" in the debate.

You probably didn't read the whole thread, but in an earlier post, I talked about two principles that must be honored in any legislation that attempts to circumscribe the rights of law-abiding citizens. One of them concerns demonstrating solid causal connections between the behaviors the law attempts to prevent and the content of the law itself. Nobody has even begun to provide that sort of demonstration with gun-control laws.

If it were to stop just one or maybe two of these instances a year, would they be worth it then?

The problem here is what you mean by "it".

Many here advocate complete confiscation. Others want there to be no "assault weapons" (whatever those are). California already has the strictest gun-control laws in the nation, with the very weapons used in this latest mass-shooting already illegal. Clearly the law had zero effect on the possession and use of those weapons.

So, the struggle you face is that the possession and carrying of firearms is an inalienable right. It must be presumed, then, that law-abiding citizens retain that right. Whatever the "it" is, must honor that right.

BTW Isn't the constitution just laws?

The constitution is meta-law; it defines how laws come into being and by what authority. Again, the presumption that the government will abide by the meta-law is the very basis of the "good faith" adoption of a constitution. Without that basis in "good faith," you really have anarchy, as the government is fundamentally illegitimate.

Again, you cannot presume ANY "good faith" on the part of criminals. Murder, for example, is already illegal and bears the harshest penalties. Do you REALLY think that this latest shooting would have been prevented if the perps had thought through the applicable laws???

"Gee... I'd really like to take my AR15 and shoot up the place. Butttt, I can't! Dang, I'm not even legally allowed to HAVE the gun. I'd better turn it in. Dang, double-dang! If only there wasn't that pesky assault-weapon law, I'd murder bunches of people!"

Ridiculous.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 3, 2015 - 06:24pm PT
How do we do it, Cranksore?

Well, if there is a high probability that the victims to be are armed it would give the wack jobs pause and probably short circuit their carnage.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 3, 2015 - 06:26pm PT
Define "mass shooting".

How many mass shootings are there in a normal year? Is this a big year, or an average one for mass shootings? Or are we below average this year?
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Ontario, Canada
Dec 3, 2015 - 06:30pm PT
Well, if the identified victims to be are armed it would give the wacko jobs pause and probably short circuit their carnage.

Doesn't the US already have the most heavily armed citizenry in the 1st world? I'm thinking it's not working and if anything, makes things worse.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 3, 2015 - 06:30pm PT
Rick, I hope you will report back with your perspective if such a horrible day ever happens that a very loved one is a victim of a similar shooting.

I sincerely hope you never have to gain that perspective.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 3, 2015 - 06:43pm PT
Define "mass shooting".
The us government defines it as 4 or more persons shot in one incident.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 3, 2015 - 06:56pm PT
So Apogee,what does your hope have to do with a solution to these mass shootings, a large percentage of which is Islamic jihad?





apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 3, 2015 - 07:03pm PT
"...these mass shootings, a large percentage of which..."

Citation, please?
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Ontario, Canada
Dec 3, 2015 - 07:05pm PT
Why just look for a solution to Islamic jihad mass shootings and not also those perpetrated by followers of Christ?
Norton

Social climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 07:06pm PT
what do these mass murderers in the US have in common?


(CNN)The man who opened fire at a Charleston church on June 17, killing nine people, joined a list many would like to forget.

Dylann Roof. Adam Lanza. James Holmes. Jared Loughner. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold.


White, Male, and almost all either raised or identify as Christian


sorry, radical Islam extremists may have entered the list this week

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 3, 2015 - 07:08pm PT
How do you measure the mass shootings that never happen, because some private citizen took the trouble to arm himself?

Like some guy who gets stomped and his ass beaten badly by 15 guys in a bar brawl ( dude asked for it, by trying to kill the bartender on a busy night ) and as he's being shown the door he screams "I'M GONNA GET MY GUN! I'M GONNA GET MY GUN!"

The bartender tells him "If I see you in here again, I'm going to blow your f*#king brains out" - he meant it, too. And the hellraiser understood.

Within a minute, the outside of the backdoor of the bar was hit by a pair of shotgun blasts, but the shooter knew better than to go back inside that bar, because he didn't want to get shot.

The bartender used his gun ( a Ruger P-85 9mm ) to stop a mass murder without shooting it, pointing it at anybody, or even drawing it.

Where on the stat sheet does an incident like that show? Happens all the time, all over the country. It's certainly not the type of thing that gets reported to the cops - the bartender just buys a couple rounds of drinks for everyone as thanks for helping out, and that's it.

7SacredPools

Trad climber
Ontario, Canada
Dec 3, 2015 - 07:15pm PT
Happens all the time, all over the country.

Ya, because all over your country crazy f*#ks are walking around with guns.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 3, 2015 - 07:16pm PT
"How do you measure the mass shootings that never happen, because some private citizen took the trouble to arm himself?"

I dunno...how do you know GWB kept us safe from another terrorist attack?
Norton

Social climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 07:18pm PT
because Jeb says so
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 3, 2015 - 07:19pm PT
Over 3100 people have been killed by Islamic terrorists on u.s. soil alone since 9-10-2011. If you add the thousands of soldiers, diplomats, aid workers, etc etc. killed since then maybe you can begin to realize we are at war with these maniacs.

Norton

Social climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 07:23pm PT
who said we aren't at war with radical Islam, Rick?

are you just now figuring this out?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 3, 2015 - 07:32pm PT
Pulling a number and a date out of your ass isn't a citation, Rick.

Source? Link?
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 3, 2015 - 07:33pm PT
Okay Norton you are making progress.

As for your white male christians. If you substitute dosed with pacifying drugs in school, obsessed with violent gaming, and prompted by the fame they see the media hyping on their predecessors you would probably be closer.

Alternately you could take your blinders off and look at the gang warfare rampant in the predominately Democrat run inner cities. Thousands upon thousands per year-makes your list of perps look anemic.

A matter of public record Apogee. Look it up yourself.
zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 07:39pm PT
So far, Mr. Truman's judicious [?] use of nuclear weapons has deterred all others from using them as any thing more than a threat.
-Dr. Strangelove(private communication)

Could a massive infusion of American 'Gee haw' into the mix deter some of these crazy bastards from their dastardly deeds? Any volunteers for some infiltration of the middle east with a tanker full of U.S.A. manufactured Sarin?

Sort of, what comes around, goes around, eh?





crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Dec 3, 2015 - 07:45pm PT
^
And rednecks have to spit out nonsense with their chew.

Sorry to insult Rush. I know he's popular in the State of Jefferson.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 3, 2015 - 07:52pm PT
You want solutions, how about this.

Close the borders down to the point even an illegal foreign mouse couldn't get in.

Close down immigration and visas from any problem foreign country. Accept only those that have education/skills in short supply here.

Law enforcement is spread to thin. Deputize returning vets and retiring law enforcement to guard targets of opportunity.

Reintroduce corporal punishment into the public schools

Outlaw violent gaming.

Fire the dem administration's responsible for their cities spiraling out of control.

Deport the america hating progressives along with other terrorists on the watchlist
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Dec 3, 2015 - 07:54pm PT
When did you become radicalized? Your satirical "solutions", you don't mention them in public, I hope. I'm guessing you do, at your kind of campfire.
zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 07:57pm PT

Close down immigration and visas from any problem foreign country. Accept only those that have education/skills in short supply here.

Roll out the welcome mat to those with biochemical weapons experience.

Provide sarin possession permits to all gun owners (who fear for their lives).




johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Dec 3, 2015 - 09:00pm PT
Well, if there is a high probability that the victims to be are armed it would give the wack jobs pause and probably short circuit their carnage.

Yet, the gun enthusiasts are afraid of a good refugee with a gun that could stop a bad guy with a gun.
Fence straddling being what it is and all.

The NRA and Texas looking into new antigun legislation.

Funny stuff right there, afraid of their own dreamed up fear. Ha!

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Dec 3, 2015 - 09:00pm PT
Rick Sumner...You forgot a couple ... Burkas mandatory for women , transgendered included , and any cleavage displays punishable by public flogging...
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired Climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 09:11pm PT

You want solutions, how about this.

Close the borders down to the point even an illegal foreign mouse couldn't get in.

Close down immigration and visas from any problem foreign country. Accept only those that have education/skills in short supply here

+1
Gary

Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
Dec 3, 2015 - 09:13pm PT
How would that have stopped a guy from Illinois?
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 3, 2015 - 09:13pm PT
Transgender burkas, yes. Would at least differentiate the freaks. Cover all cleavage, no that would be a crime.


TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 3, 2015 - 09:14pm PT
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-san-bernardino-shooting-victims-htmlstory.html

All victims of a violent, pathological, misogynistic, genocidal ideology

The powers that be can not bring themselves to even name it.

That might offend someone.
Gary

Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
Dec 3, 2015 - 09:29pm PT
All victims of a violent, pathological, misogynistic, genocidal ideology

True, the NRA is a pretty despicable organization, and they have no regard for the havoc their policies are creating in this country, but I'm not sure they're misogynistic.

That might offend someone.

If Wayne LaPierre is offended, tough.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 3, 2015 - 09:51pm PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Just for you Looon Gary....







Carry on.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 3, 2015 - 09:52pm PT
Hiya, Cheef!

Watcha drinkin' tonight?
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 3, 2015 - 09:56pm PT
Pomegranate Juice. Like I do every night By God Apogee.



Pssst, you should give a go cus all that Lib flavored KOOL AID you been drinking Apelgee has definitely melted your brain and ability to think logically. That goes for the rest of your buddy Lefty Loons here as well.




apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 3, 2015 - 09:57pm PT
That shit'll rot your brain, Cheef.

Case in point.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 3, 2015 - 10:04pm PT
This ones for you, APOG!


apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 3, 2015 - 10:05pm PT
How much vodka do you go through each night in your pomegranate juice? Favorite brand?
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 3, 2015 - 10:10pm PT
None ... Zero.... Zilch.



Here's another one for ya APOG...





Oh the Kool Aid Brigade.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 3, 2015 - 10:12pm PT
She's haaawwwttt, Cheefy.

How much TP you go through each night 'admiring' her?
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 3, 2015 - 10:19pm PT
And this one's especially for all you Lefty Kooooool Aid sucking looons....



apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 3, 2015 - 10:22pm PT
You were gone for a few minutes. Was it good?

Here...this'll help your next round:

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 3, 2015 - 10:24pm PT
Or something more traditional, and right up yer alley:

The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 3, 2015 - 10:26pm PT
Last but not least.....






Oh the Ironeeeeee.....
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2015 - 10:26pm PT
Sorry guys The Soft Target only gets a chubby over things with gills.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 3, 2015 - 10:27pm PT
'Last'?

No, not a chance. We'll be anxiously waiting more brilliance, Cheefster.

Nighty-night!
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2015 - 10:36pm PT
SpudButt sputtles forth.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 3, 2015 - 10:42pm PT
Oh, this one's just for YOU Philo......

jonnyrig

climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 10:55pm PT
So...
If ONE Syrian refugee comes to this country and commits a murder by firearm, who's fault will it be? The guns?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 3, 2015 - 11:46pm PT
Layton scored 11 in the 2nd quarter tonight. Amber scored 9 in the 3rd quarter.
Placer at least 3 for 4 tonight. Smoke that;!*

madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 4, 2015 - 12:19am PT
Your last post is so wonderfully logical without any sense of reality.

To keep your opinion at least rational, there's been 354 mass shootings in the USA to date this year and there's still 28 days to go for 2015.

By contrast, the "other side" is filled with illogic that it calls "reality."

Bottom line is, nobody is getting serious about the causes, which are complicated indeed. So, to "do something" (and thereby enjoy a totally false but nevertheless satisfying sense of empowerment rather than the present helplessness), the gun-control crowd will oversimplify, legislate, and then look for new blame-targets when the approach doesn't have the desired result.

It IS truly pointless is to pass more laws that will touch ONLY the demographic that is not causally linked to these incidents. And looking for the "common thread" in these incidents is going to be particularly tough, because there is a huge range of wackiness.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 4, 2015 - 12:53am PT
A telling aspect of the terrorist attacks from 9/11 on is the fact that almost all the perpetrators were on the radar of various intelligence agencies prior to the attack. In the San Bernardino case he was communicating with folks the FBI were monitoring and they knew it. How hard is it to roll up and pay such folks a visit and let them know they are now under surveillance and put them on the no fly list.

The inability to do anything despite having the intel has been the case over and over and highlights the fact that, even after 100s of billions in ELINT, that converting that intel into action is still a huge sticking point.

In this particular case, given he was devout and in search of a bride, it would be curious to know if the woman wasn't actually the one recruiting him and pushing the attack. Seems like it would be an effective recruiting strategy for ISIS.

And it again highlights the issue that refugees aren't the problem, it takes years to get that status versus a tourist or business visa or arranging a sham marriage.
monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 4, 2015 - 05:57am PT
Paul Ryan says those on suspected terrorist list should still be able to buy whatever gun they desire.

The Wisconsin Republican said part of the discussion surrounding mental health legislation is who should and shouldn't have access to guns, but he signaled that barring gun purchases by people on no-fly terror lists — as President Obama urged Wednesday — is not an option.

Ryan said government officials put people on such lists without any due legal process and so denying those listed the right to bear arms would violate their rights.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2015/12/03/ryan-urges-caution-on-gun-legislation/76714608/
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Dec 4, 2015 - 06:26am PT
http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2015/12/03/no-mr-president-nra-not-blame-san-bernardino-column/76748608/
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 4, 2015 - 07:05am PT
And it again highlights the issue that refugees aren't the problem, it takes years to get that status versus a tourist or business visa or arranging a sham marriage.

More of the Liberal Logic. It's easier to be a "Bad Guy/Terrorist" being an American Citz than it is if one is a "Refugee".

Cool.


Goes along with this very recent Liberal Logic that our POTUS seriously believes and is disseminating...

[Click to View YouTube Video]







Add it all up and we get the following current "Liberal" logic:

1. "Stricter" Gun Control will impede Terrorism

2. ISIS/ISIL is merely a "JV Team" and nothing to "worry" about

3. "We have ISIL Contained"

4. Radical Jihadists are not in any way associated with Islam/Muslims thus do NOT call them such and to do so deems you a "Bigot/Racist" etc

5. Syrian Refugees will not consist of ANY potential "Bad Guys" that will perform horrific acts such as the one in SB


AND!!!

6. It's ALL Climate Changes fault because it truly is the greatest threat to our National Security.


Curious to see what bountiful logic will come about from our wonderfully wise POTUS today that I can add to the above list.




OH MAN!




HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 4, 2015 - 07:09am PT
If we could get background checks half as thorough for gun purchases as we do for Syrian refugees we'd be in pretty good shape. Mind you that as a profile, people purchasing guns in the US are relatively likely to commit violent acts when you contrast them with people applying for asylum. It's not even close.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 4, 2015 - 07:12am PT
And we currently HAVE....




philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2015 - 07:19am PT
Stupid is as stupid spews.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 4, 2015 - 07:22am PT
You put the onus to register the gun on the person selling it, not the person buying it. Then you fine the sh#t out of people with unregistered guns. Pretty simple.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 4, 2015 - 07:26am PT
Chief, how about taking a morning walk in the beautifully crisp eastside air instead of venting angrily here? This stuff doesn't bring out the best in you.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 4, 2015 - 07:29am PT
Chief lives on the Eastside and spends this much time stockpiling bad political .gifs?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 4, 2015 - 07:29am PT
"Then you fine the sh#t out of people with unregistered guns. Pretty simple."



What f*#king good would that do?

It's already a FELONY to possess the guns they used to shoot up San Bernardino. What's a fine going to do? Especially when the police won't enforce the law?

You think the police are going to be more interested in writing tickets than making felony arrests?
Gary

Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
Dec 4, 2015 - 07:32am PT
Poedtke, what's your thoughts on this:
The Wisconsin Republican said part of the discussion surrounding mental health legislation is who should and shouldn't have access to guns, but he signaled that barring gun purchases by people on no-fly terror lists — as President Obama urged Wednesday — is not an option.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 4, 2015 - 07:34am PT
Hddj-yep. Eastside = heaven on earth.
SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
Dec 4, 2015 - 07:35am PT
What many on this thread may be facing and in the interest of promoting good health habits for said STers

Why Sitting too Much can Cause Hemorrhoids and What you Can do Instead!

http://www.dealwithhemorrhoids.com/why-sitting-too-much-can-cause-hemorrhoids-and-what-you-can-do-instead/


Susan


pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Dec 4, 2015 - 07:39am PT
Poor Obama. He's blinded by his (love?) Islam.

Liberalism truly is a DISEASE..
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 4, 2015 - 07:47am PT
Chaz posted
It's already a FELONY to possess the guns they used to shoot up San Bernardino.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/04/us/weapons-in-san-bernardino-shootings-were-legally-obtained.html?_r=0

The guns were purchased legally and modified using technology legally installed by the manufacturer. The "black market" argument in America is absurd considering it's legal to purchase these kinds of weapons and we shield the manufacturers from any responsibility. We track purchases of fertilizer, our digital communications are an open book but weapons used to kill tens of thousands of people a year are untrackable. Are you really telling me that it wouldn't have been useful information to know these people were stockpiling this stuff? The government has to be able to read my sexts but I can purchase as many high powered semi-auto weapons as I want anonymously?


I should clarify that I don't think gun registration alone is a panacea, it's a start. Our current regime of gun ownership has failed. 12,000 homicides and 20,000 suicides annually is not evidence of a system that works.
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Dec 4, 2015 - 07:54am PT
Mind you that as a profile, people purchasing guns in the US are relatively likely to commit violent acts when you contrast them with people applying for asylum. It's not even close.

Got a link for this?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Dec 4, 2015 - 07:57am PT
Feinstein tried to ban gun sales to suspects on the no-fly list...Most of the republicans blocked the bill which to me says republicans encourage gun sales to suspected terrorists... republicans are moronic hypocrites living in constant fear of losing NRA campaign funding while putting Americans in harms way...Talk about caving in to special interests..
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2015 - 07:58am PT
Hey Susan here is a product that should help the intellectually constipated forum posters.

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 4, 2015 - 08:00am PT
Hermit queried
Got a link for this?

http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-mythical-connection-between-immigrants-and-crime-1436916798
http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21674694-america-should-reclaim-its-role-beacon-those-fleeing-persecution-and-war-yearning?fsrc=scn/tw/te/pe/ed/yearningtobreathefree
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/11/can-terrorists-really-infiltrate-the-syrian-refugee-program/416475/
http://www.dw.com/en/report-refugees-have-not-increased-crime-rate-in-germany/a-18848890
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 4, 2015 - 08:02am PT
We can't.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2015 - 08:06am PT


Listening to the psycho blather of the site rightwingers makes me realize we are already the
Land of the fearful home of the depraved. These misinformed, willingly ignorant and frightened little dicks are an embarrassment to this country's foundation and assumed legacy.

The good thing is they are as significant and useful as teats on a Boar hog.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Dec 4, 2015 - 08:07am PT
What's it gonna take for the GOP to get off the shitter and support reasonable gun legislation? Like, background checks and registration for ALL new purchases!

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 4, 2015 - 08:09am PT
DMT posted
Of course we can.

And we will

No, we won't.


Sounds like the wife posted a pledge of allegiance to ISIL on her Facebook. It was taken down by someone but then retrieved.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/05/us/tashfeen-malik-islamic-state.html
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2015 - 08:10am PT
EdT it is going to take the American people to recognize the problem and vote these human colostomy bags out of office.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Dec 4, 2015 - 08:11am PT
To paraphrase something I saw:

"I'm sick of these white male NRA Republicans and their mass shootings...
uh Sayeed Farouk? Let's not vilify a whole group now."
Norton

Social climber
Dec 4, 2015 - 08:15am PT
Its hardly limited to the right wing.

Democrats in Congress have proved this over and over.


how so, Dingus?
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2015 - 08:20am PT
Norton, they have proved it by being unwilling to just go shoot the obstructionist republikkkans to get them out of the way of progress.
After all that's the AmeriKKKan way.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 4, 2015 - 08:34am PT
Larry posted
"I'm sick of these white male NRA Republicans and their mass shootings...
uh Sayeed Farouk? Let's not vilify a whole group now."

The thing you saw was a gif on facebook:


Which is one of the stupidest things ever posted being that it's literally the opposite of America's response to events. The criticism of "NRA Republicans" is that despite the continued use of guns in this type of violence, they act like there's no good reason to examine a different approach. Additionally, I don't recall anti-white Republican violence spiking after attacks but we can be assured that there is going to be a spike in anti-Muslim sentiment and violence after this one.

There are people in both parties eager to paint all violence as coming from one side or another, but taking those people seriously is silly.
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Dec 4, 2015 - 08:34am PT
mass shootings = the New911

and we still don't have the courage to follow the money
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2015 - 08:43am PT

Norton

Social climber
Dec 4, 2015 - 09:02am PT
Norton - The nearly 100% democrat votes to authorize President Bush to invade Iraq and Afghanistan. Many of them abandoned their principles out of fear of voter retribution. Given an election year is approaching?

I'd like to see a democrat buck voter sentiment. But it won't happen.

DMT

interesting, we have a difference of opinion, Dingus

Think back to the time after 9/11 when the President of the United States, his VP,
his Secretary of State were all lying to congress and the American people about Iraq being behind 9/11, having WMD and are will use them to attack America.

Yes, both Republican and Democratic congresspeople believed those lies, but
how in the world you arrive at the conclusion that they should not have

My but aren't you a great Monday morning quarterback, Dingus.

In addition, you damn right many Democrats hitched up their pants and voted FOR the ACA fully knowing that their vote would mean their defeat in their next election,
and in 2010 it sure dead.

Respectfully Dingus, as I like your posting through the years, you are flat wrong on this
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 4, 2015 - 09:10am PT
Personal attack
Says Pillo the LightningBoi who hides under a blanket every time it rains!

Wipe the IslamoLove off your chin Pillo. Guns are not the problem, ME terrorists are and ya'll can't see it through the IslamoLove.

Not a personal attack
My but aren't you a great Monday morning quarterback, Dingus.
More of a debate on a subject

As where the top one just attacks the person without any debate subject


Why did the fake Lois get booted but we let these other trolls continue that do nothing Except Post viscous Person Attacks
The new poster didn't attack anyone, he/she was just opinionated.

Tradhog, who the hell is he?

PotatoHead another demented poster that has nothing to say except to attack liberals, who is he?
He is SkipT, who was banned before for the same behavior
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 4, 2015 - 09:25am PT
PotatoHead = skipt?

Never thought of that one before...I suppose it's possible...
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 4, 2015 - 09:25am PT
The more mass shooting are sensationalized
The more gun sales

More guns have been sold in the last 2 weeks than ever before

Hysteria, fear, paranoia, doom, and all the rest of the base reptilian brain emotions..
Gun nuts feed on it.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired Climber
Dec 4, 2015 - 09:28am PT
TradHog

Trad climber
Yellow Rose of Texass

I fixed it for him, Craig.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 4, 2015 - 09:30am PT
30% of posts on supertopo are bad political memes, another 30% are "he insulted me first" posts.
overwatch

climber
Dec 4, 2015 - 09:31am PT
I thought rockjox because of the potato/Idaho connection. Although Tradhog comes off as a big tough guy...hmmm
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 4, 2015 - 09:42am PT
Nah, neither of them are as verbose as rox. And nary a mention of wolves out of either of them.
Fish Finder

climber
Dec 4, 2015 - 09:43am PT
yes HDDJ

what is with those people who have all the time to search for those dumb memes

It appears to me from this thread ,
the ones who post them are clearly insane




edit: my guess is that they are all such blow hards and dont have any credibility on their own words because they post to much....just sayin
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 4, 2015 - 09:44am PT
Ya, I'm a big bully, everyone fears me
Give me a break
and leave me out of your hate posts


I post a rational observation and the guy thinks I'm crying?
What is with the projection?
Cry away tough guy


all rox jox posts are huge annoying rants about this or that


666
wooo hooo

That was faTTys favorite post
Fish Finder

climber
Dec 4, 2015 - 09:46am PT
you did get the 666 post Craig

edit: heck yeah , my guy Fry is the nicest sheepbugger you all will ever run into
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Dec 4, 2015 - 10:07am PT
Trump Leads Latest Poll by Large Margin

This guy is going to arm everyone and segregate the population. = "shit hitting fan"

ISIS ain't got nothing on the donald.

philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2015 - 10:21am PT




Dec 4, 2015 - 08:57am PT
frightened little dicks are an embarrassment to this country'

Says Pillo the LightningBoi who hides under a blanket every time it rains!

Wipe the IslamoLove off your chin Pillo. Guns are not the problem, ME terrorists are and ya'll can't see it through the IslamoLove.

So you just can't get over that I made you cry and your pathetic constant attacks got you the boot. you earned the boot all on your own. you are on your way to another booting. Keep up the hate fest.
Question, do you make fun of soldiers with PTSD, or blind people or steal crutches from the injured?
Why do you think making fun of a lightning strike survivor is fun? It is an act of cruelty and it makes you a sick weakling.
Maybe you need some electroshock therapy. Come on over I can help with that.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 4, 2015 - 11:43am PT
For your consideration....

2/3 of the "firearm homicides" in this nation are suicides. If you compare the USA suicide rates with those of other nations, you see that we are FAR behind South Korea and Japan (that have virtually removed guns from their societies). We are behind many European nations, including France.

So, in fact, the "tool" employed really is a red herring. People succeed in killing themselves just fine with or without guns, and our suicide rate is "right in there" with other developed nations and lower than many.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

Take out the suicides-by-gun, and you have a MUCH more realistic comparison with other nations' murder-by-gun rates.

Then, take away the gang and drug-related murders (coupled with those drug-related incidents that are commonly counted as "arguments"), and you are left with very, VERY few "other" murders-by-gun.

http://usconservatives.about.com/od/capitalpunishment/a/Putting-Gun-Death-Statistics-In-Perspective.htm

In actual fact, the demographic that could even possibly be positively affected by proposed gun-control laws amount to a few-thousand incidents. And in actual fact, we simply don't know what makes people do the sorts of things that fall into this "other" category. You have to look at the incidents case-by-case.

This latest incident is not motivated by the same factors as, say, a theater shooter. So, there is no way to sweepingly identify the causal chains that produce these incidents.

If you are serious about solutions, rather than knee-jerk reactions that really will NOT produce solutions, then you have to get beyond the "gotta do SOMETHING" mentality that typically pervades these discussions.

What we've really "gotta do" is zero in on the demographics about which we intend to "do something," carefully identify the causal chains that motivate each brand of violence, and then address the social issues that produce the undesirable motivations.

The "tool" really is not the issue, in this nation you cannot remove the "tool," and the vast majority of desired regulatory legislation is literally not causally-connected to the actual problem we would hope to solve.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2015 - 11:56am PT
Norton

Social climber
Dec 4, 2015 - 12:00pm PT
oh what does a Chief Justice know about interpreting the Constitution anyway?

just ask Madbolter, his fine legal mind will straighten all this out
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 4, 2015 - 12:02pm PT
^^^^

Sorry, but he is simply incorrect. His "take" on the 2nd amendment is not even logically sustainable, as the language is in the form of a conditional. He falls into the same logical mistake that plagues many: denying the antecedent.

Would you quote Justice Scalia as an "authority"? These guys are just guys, and they often make even egregious mistakes. This perspective was one of those.

Edit: The irony of Norton's statement (which popped in before my response) is that you guys DO NOT want to go back to what the founders actually SAID about the 2nd amendment. You'll quote a justice but not the people that actually WROTE the thing in the first place.

Every time I bring up the founders' perspectives, I get: "those guys had their perspective, but we live in the 21st century now," and, "Foundationalism is ridiculous," and so on.

So, you'll quote ONE guy who echos your own (mistaken) perspective, but you'll throw out the guys who actually WROTE the thing.

Pretty pathetic, really.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 4, 2015 - 12:07pm PT
madbolter posted
2/3 of the "firearm homicides" in this nation are suicides. If you compare the USA suicide rates with those of other nations, you see that we are FAR behind South Korea and Japan (that have virtually removed guns from their societies). We are behind many European nations, including France.

So, in fact, the "tool" employed really is a red herring. People succeed in killing themselves just fine with or without guns, and our suicide rate is "right in there" with other developed nations and lower than many.

The suicide success rate goes up dramatically if you used a gun.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/case-fatality/

Fatal Nonfatal Total % Fatal
Firearm 16,869 2,980 19,849 85%
Suffocation 6,198 2,761 8,959 69%
Poisoning/overdose 5,191 215,814 221,005 2%
Fall 651 1434 2,085 31%
Cut/pierce 458 62,817 63,275 1%
Other 1,109 35,089 36,198 3%
Unspecified 146 2097 2,243 7%
Total 30,622 322,991 353,613 9%

It's hard to argue that reducing access to guns wouldn't have an impact. It won't fix it but it will certainly make a difference. S. Korea and Japan have shame based cultures where suicide has in the past been seen as a socially acceptable alternative to failure. I'm not sure those are great examples. Additionally, while suicides make up 2/3 of total guns deaths, arguing that the 12,000 people killed annually by guns in homicides is thus acceptable by comparison is callous and grotesque.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Dec 4, 2015 - 12:20pm PT
To overturn it will likely require a constitutional amendment. I'd like to see some courageous democrats take up that cause.... yeah, right.

Time will tell, but I'd say the 2nd Amendment is far more likely to be "overturned" by judicial fiat once more libs are put on the court than by an actual amendment.
The Supreme Court can and does "overrule" itself. For example, it wasn't that long ago that the Supreme Court upheld state laws criminalizing homosexual sodomy.
A decade or two goes by, the Court reverses itself, and then keeps going and finds there's a Constitutional right to sodomite marriage!!
What is perhaps even more likely is that the future Courts won't explicitly overrule Heller, but will uphold increasingly strict gun regs (remember the Court didn't say you can't have gun control laws--just overruled the most extreme ones).

I don't have any context for the Burger quote, but MB is entirely correct-- I'd go even further and say that a view that the the "proper" interpretation of an amendment in the Bill of Rights that grants rights to "the people" is that army has the right to possess weapons isn't even really worth a serious response.

What is worth more consideration is the modern lib view that the Constitution doesn't mean anything at all except whatever the current Supreme Court says it means, and it can say anything to either strike down state or federal laws or compel the state and federal government to do anything it wants. Sadly, that seems to be the direction the country is moving, Obama had done his part in appointing hardcore statists to the Court, and Hillary will do more of the same if given the chance.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2015 - 12:40pm PT
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 4, 2015 - 01:09pm PT
arguing that the 12,000 people killed annually by guns in homicides is thus acceptable by comparison is callous and grotesque.

I totally agree. Who do you think IS arguing that way?

And what's your account of the suicide rate in (as we recently saw poignantly played out) ENTIRELY gun-free France, which beats our suicide rate?

My overarching point, anyway, is that getting to the causes of these incidents MATTERS, so that no cookie-cutter, sweeping, knee-jerk, "do something" REACTIONS are going to be valid.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 4, 2015 - 01:24pm PT
My overarching point, anyway, is that getting to the causes of these incidents MATTERS, so that no cookie-cutter, sweeping, knee-jerk, "do something" REACTIONS are going to be valid.

1930's- "we gotta do something about these guns"
1960's- "we gotta do something about these guns"
1970's- "we gotta do something about these guns"
1980's- "we gotta do something about these guns"
1990's- "we gotta do something about these guns"
2000's- "we gotta do something about these guns"
2010's- "we gotta do something about these guns"
2015- "Woah. WOAH, buddy. Easy with the knee jerk reaction, ok? We need time to puzzle this out."


I totally agree. Who do you think IS arguing that way?

Anyone who says "well 2/3 of those deaths is suicide" with no concurrent argument that something needs to be done is inherently minimizing the number. So, a lot of people.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 4, 2015 - 01:41pm PT
Let me help you state it accurately:

1930's- Liberals intent on control saying, "we gotta do something about these guns"
1960's- Liberals intent on control saying, "we gotta do something about these guns"
1970's- Liberals intent on control saying, "we gotta do something about these guns"
1980's- Liberals intent on control saying, "we gotta do something about these guns"
1990's- Liberals intent on control saying, "we gotta do something about these guns"
2000's- Liberals intent on control saying, "we gotta do something about these guns"
2010's- Liberals intent on control saying, "we gotta do something about these guns"

2015- Non-liberal saying, "Woah. WOAH, buddy. Easy with the knee jerk reaction, ok? We need time to puzzle this out."

Anyone who says "well 2/3 of those deaths is suicide" with no concurrent argument that something needs to be done is inherently minimizing the number. So, a lot of people.

Nope, let me fix THAT for you too, since you seem intent on straw-man argumentation....

2/3 of those deaths are suicides, and our suicide rate is in keeping with that of other developed nations REGARDLESS OF TOOL EMPLOYED.

Yes, there IS an issue, and we SHOULD look into it!

But, like with the other "gun homicide" incidents, focusing on the TOOL is indeed a red herring, and we don't make PROGRESS toward ACTUAL solutions to ANY of these incidents (suicides, mass-shootings, gangland violence, or ANY of it) by sweeping all of them together under one (false cause) "gun control" rubric.

Again, when you FINALLY do want to get serious about solutions, then you will FINALLY agree that the ACTUAL CAUSES cannot be addressed by fixating on the tool.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 4, 2015 - 04:36pm PT
Interesting to see people with a well known aversion to pork living like f*#king pigs.

http://laist.com/2015/12/04/san_bernardino_shooters_apartment.php
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 4, 2015 - 04:50pm PT
Madbolter posted
1960's- Liberals intent on control saying, "we gotta do something about these guns"

Uh, I think you might want to do some reading on this, buddy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulford_Act

You do realize that current political ideologies and party lines were not always the same, right?

Chaz posted
Interesting to see people with a well known aversion to pork living like f*#king pigs.

Pigs are actually super clean. Glad to know you're still looking for that racism line.
monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 4, 2015 - 05:01pm PT
Yea, and the FBI tearing thru the apartment followed by the media rush had nothing to do with it's condition.
dhayan

climber
culver city, ca
Dec 4, 2015 - 05:05pm PT
Why call them terrorists? They are all just plain old murderers...al quaeda, Isis, and the us government.... Calling them terrorist gives them too much importance.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 4, 2015 - 05:09pm PT
"Yea, and the FBI tearing thru the apartment followed by the media rush had nothing to do with it's condition."



It was probably the FBI who dirtied all the dishes and left them piled in the sink.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 4, 2015 - 05:11pm PT
Uh, I think you might want to do some reading on this, buddy.

LOL... stooping to state laws when this entire thread has been about national policy?

Why not dig up some local laws? Sheesh, why not look at the posted desires of this or that local business?

Hey, I'm not saying you can't find this or that exception to the rule. But you also can't deny that the increasingly liberal "platform" goes hand-in-hand with the long-term calls to "do something" about guns at a national level. Nor can you deny that these calls follow "incidents" that the media has spun into more and more of a national "crisis," so that this "crisis" can be used as justification for false-cause CONTROLS.

Look, this is very simple: Gun owners/carriers have a right. It's a right that doesn't infringe upon ANY of yours. It's a right derived directly from an inalienable right, making it nothing like the right to a cell phone or any other such spurious, liberal BS. If you want to legislate in ANY way that infringes on that right, you have a burden of proof regarding the causal connections between your proposed law and some national crisis that demands that gun owners "give a little" regarding their right and the supposed solution to the supposed crisis.

Regardless of media spin, we do NOT have a "gun crisis" in this nation. Period. There are tragedies, but they simply don't rise to the level of national crisis.

More people are dying from guns than we would wish. Absolutely. In fact, if even ONE non-legitimate shooting takes place, that IS a tragedy. But NOT all tragedies are a national crisis! Don't even start to try to float the "save the kids" crap, because there are SO many better ways to protect the kids than these false-cause gun-control laws.

Gun control is a transparent attempt at PEOPLE control. And people across this nation are not stupid enough to buy the liberal arguments on this point.

You are NOT going to get 3/4 of the states to ratify the sort of amendment you'd need. And, even if you could, you are NOT going to get many tens of millions of presently legal gun owners to turn in their guns under ANY scenario. We the people simply are NOT going to be controlled the way the left wants.

I repeat: NOT gonna happen.

So, I repeat: If you want to get serious about ACTUAL solutions to these incidents, then you are going to have to get more fine-grained and causally-aware in your thinking.

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 4, 2015 - 05:11pm PT
My sink is literally filled with dirty dishes. I am a dirty, Muslim terrorist.

madbolter posted
LOL... stooping to state laws when this entire thread has been about national policy?

I do not have an eye roll eye rolly enough to respond to this.

madbolter posted
Gun control is a transparent attempt at PEOPLE control.

Sure dude. If you're someone whose identity is completely wrapped up in gun ownership I'm sure it looks that way. The rest of us just don't want to get shot and have no faith in the Die Hard vigilante wanna-be garbage popularized by our culture.
monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 4, 2015 - 05:11pm PT
Dirty dishes in the sink. OMG! What swines!
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 4, 2015 - 06:01pm PT
The rest of us just don't want to get shot and have no faith in the Die Hard vigilante wanna-be garbage popularized by our culture.

Then you should immediately move to someplace where that is not a real threat.

Like, pretty much ANYWHERE in the USA that's not a few well-known inner-city armpits. Beyond a FEW such places, your odds are astronomically low that this great horror you FEAR is ever gonna happen.

The irony is that people like you apparently LIVE IN FEAR of this incredibly unlikely event happening, yet you accuse people like me of living in fear of other unlikely events happening.

The difference between US is that YOU fear the everyday, law-abiding citizens. While I simply prepare for the random CRIMINAL event. YOU want to live in a protected little bubble, while I realize that we do not.

You are more likely to be illegitimately shot by a COP than by any citizen-gun-carrier. Your fear is directed at ENTIRELY the wrong demographic. At least my realism is directed at the demographic that is actually a threat.
zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 4, 2015 - 06:41pm PT
Amen bros and sisses. Evbody needs to get on board.


My experience balances it all out as to who threatened whom:

1 - Black kid with a gun at a proposed 'gang' fight

2 - Laguna Beach PD

3 - Redneck mutherfkker driving up 395 in a truck like the one above

All guilty as charged.

The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 4, 2015 - 07:51pm PT




The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 4, 2015 - 08:04pm PT
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 4, 2015 - 08:12pm PT
If I wear a vest festooned with sticks of dynamite down a public street with no intention to detonate, am I still amended "unalienable" ? ...

I've repeatedly answered this sort of question.

WMDs do not provide a credible response to an INDIVIDUAL threat in the USA (at least not yet). (Oh, and if you have a problem with your scenario being called a "weapon of MASS destruction," then NOBODY should be calling a 4-or-more shooting a "mass shooting.")

Unlike a gun with a 13-round mag, with a big pile of dynamite, it's an "all or nothing," big-boom or nothing affair. There can in principle be no precision or "aim" with such a response. A gun can in principle deliver an individual response to an individual.

Furthermore, you would never imagine a cop employing such a response, and the citizen armaments should map onto the armaments of the cops (for reasons I've also explained elsewhere).

So, let's keep it in perspective.
Psilocyborg

climber
Dec 4, 2015 - 08:46pm PT
Removing all guns will not fix our utterly broken society. Our utterly broken society is a Petri dish for ISIS's idiology.

Republicans and democrats are a bigger threat to this country than ISIS. United we stand, divided we fall. Duh.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 4, 2015 - 09:56pm PT
These rights are Constitutionally inalienable, like air to breath and water to drink.

Jim, I'm not sure what you're after. I don't think you are asking questions in good faith, and phrases like "constitutionally inalienable" don't even make sense.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 4, 2015 - 10:14pm PT
Funny how well simple language can easily divide otherwise intelligent people.

"Gun Violence"

"Muslim Terrorists"

Both of the examples above are nonsense used to simply divide and distract. See if you can keep track of how many times one or the other are used in current propaganda outlets (i.e. anything on the teevee).



madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 4, 2015 - 10:36pm PT
If me as a human is allowed into the USA at our mutual border, the rights afforded by the American Constitution are inalienable.

The "inalienable" rights the US founders believed in are not expressly mentioned in the constitution; a subset are mentioned in the declaration of independence. Inalienable rights are not dependent upon any government, nor can they be "afforded" by any document, including the US constitution.

It is too huge a topic to discuss on a forum: why/how you come to have such rights. But our founders based the principles of this nation on the fact that persons do have them. Thus, the US founding documents acknowledge rather than "grant" or "afford" these rights.

That sounds like even though I'm not classified as American, I'm still protected by the American Constitution and Bill of Rights while on American soil.

You are talking now of something like legal protections, and you seem to be headed toward positive protections rather than talking about negative rights. Furthermore, the way things presently work in this nation is often a very far cry from the way the founding principles would imply. So, as a "tourist" in the US, if you are looking for inconsistencies between the way you could expect things to work here and the way things actually turn out to work, you can certainly find many.

You talked about buying a .357 magnum for self-defense. I honestly don't know what legal rights you have in that regard. I have a number of friends here from Canada with green cards, and they are legally able to purchase guns here. But I don't know about gun laws for non-residents.

None of that has anything to do with inalienable rights, unless you are asserting that you have an inalienable right to own a gun and that that right transcends the soil upon which you are standing. If that's your direction here, I would agree with you, but there are still legitimate legal ramifications as regards legal aliens ("immigrant" is not the correct term for short-timers or illegals).

Again, I don't know what you're after with this line of questioning. But, again, the way you are talking about rights and tying them to the constitution is not accurate. Also there is often a wide disconnect between legality (the realm of lawyers and politicians) and morality (the realm of rights).
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 4, 2015 - 10:41pm PT
me as a human is legally allowed into the USA at our mutual border, the rights afforded by the American Constitution are inalienable.

All I can think of is this.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 4, 2015 - 11:18pm PT
Mr Brennan writes:

"That sounds like even though I'm not classified as American, I'm still protected by the American Constitution and Bill of Rights while on American soil."



As a foreigner, you only have the rights that a majority of Congress says you have. The rights in our Constitution are for "Ourselves and our Posterity".
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2015 - 11:23pm PT
MD1 I read your skreed and a few words of yours caught my eye.


Furthermore, the way things presently work in this nation is often a very far cry from the way the founding principles would imply.


Like the skewing of the 2nd to imply that every Tom, Dick and Joe the Plumber has a god given right to have semi-auto assault weapons with high capacity mags and hollow point rounds? You mean like that?

Somehow I doubt they envisioned "No Fly Lists" and "No Fly Zones" either.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 4, 2015 - 11:24pm PT
" that all men were created equal and we're endowed by the creator with certain inalienable rights". The declaration of independence, not the constitution guys.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 4, 2015 - 11:25pm PT
Well, I'm going to bed, but I'll offer this.

Throwing morality into what defines legality is your red herring MB...

No, as my last post clarified, I am distinguishing legality and morality. I say that they often come far apart. I believe that you are the one who is "throwing morality into what defines legality."

I would question what you think is the distinction between a legitimate law and an illegitimate one.

You go on about where someone's liberty begins and where someone else has a problem with that at the beginning of their nose.

You'll need to clarify what you mean by that.

What is your point exactly about the rights that define an individual who finds his feet legally, 200 miles inland from any American border while being a citizen of another country ?

As I said, neither the US founders nor I believe that inalienable rights come and go based upon borders. They are bound to persons... inalienably, so they transcend borders and governments.

However, not all governments recognize this fact, and not all honor them. Over more than two centuries, the United States has drifted very far in terms of its understanding of, commitment to, and legislation in terms of these rights. Consequently, the US we see now is very, very different in this sense than the US that was designed and founded.

I don't mean at all that the original US was legally perfect. In fact, the institution of slavery itself indicates how difficult it is for people to form all and only principled laws. However, the biggest difference between then and now is that the founders at least understood and were committed to the principles, while today most people do not understand nor are they committed to the founding principles.

Thus, what legal rights an alien on US soil may or may not have today regarding self-defense could well come far apart from the founding principles. As I said, I'm not up on the laws regarding aliens purchasing and bearing guns on US soil. It is certain that Canada does not afford US citizens the legal right to bear guns in Canada that they have while on US soil. So, you see that legal rights come apart from moral rights.

The crux of the point I have made repeatedly is that if the US government so utterly violates its founding principles that in its laws it ceases to uphold, honor, and protect inalienable rights, "we the people" NO LESS possess those rights anyway. If these moral rights are not reflected in legislation, they do not thereby become any less fundamental moral rights.

"We the people" recognize that governments often fail to ground their laws in fundamental moral principles. And when this occurs, such governments become less and less legitimate and may be ultimately overthrown by principled people seeking to form another government that will again honor and uphold inalienable rights. The rights of revolution or abstention are themselves inalienable rights, as was explicitly stated as the most fundamental justification for our abstention from and ultimate throwing off of British rule.

So, if you are asking a legal question, I have no answer for you because I don't know the status of gun rights for aliens in the US. If you are asking a moral question, I would say that your right of self-defense does not abandon you at the border. If it could, it would not be inalienable.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2015 - 11:25pm PT
Your on a roll Rick. Now tell us what those rights that are inalienable are.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 4, 2015 - 11:33pm PT
Well phillo, since you angry rhetoric infringes upon most others lives, liberty and the pursuit of happiness I would assume that someday soon you'll have the right of silence and anything coming out of your pie hole can and will be used against you.

Let's just hope you don't go off before that and create a mass casualty event as an angry white guy. Same thing with your bros the Craigster.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2015 - 11:35pm PT
Hahaha Idiot wind.
It's a wonder that you still know how to breathe.


Thanks Bob Dylan.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 5, 2015 - 12:01am PT
Like the skewing of the 2nd to imply that every Tom, Dick and Joe the Plumber has a god given right to have semi-auto assault weapons with high capacity mags and hollow point rounds? You mean like that?

Yes, I mean EXACTLY like that.

You never argue in good-faith. You care only for sniping, personal attacks, vile language and accusations, and every other dirty trick of the sophist.

I have repeatedly argued that the bill of rights has NO causal relation to the possession of inalienable rights. It is a TRAGEDY that supposed "Americans" even have to have this explained to them!

The entire bill of rights never should have been adopted into the constitution, as it HAS resulting in EXACTLY the confusion that Hamilton feared and argued against in Federalist 84:

"I go further and affirm that bills of rights, in the sense and to the extent in which they are contended for, are not only unnecessary in the proposed Constitution but would even be dangerous. They would contain various exceptions to powers which are not granted; and, on this very account, would afford a colorable pretext to claim more than were granted. For why declare that things shall not be done which there is no power to do? Why, for instance, should it be said that the liberty of the press shall not be restrained, when no power is given by which restrictions may be imposed?"

Jefferson famously argued FOR the bill of rights, SO suspicious was he of a federal government, because he wanted to make POSITIVELY explicit that the federal government had NO power in such matters, while Hamilton is proved right in his contention that a bill of rights by its very existence SUGGESTS that the federal government has powers beyond those enumerated in the body of the constitution that thus must be explicitly reigned in.

FAR safer, Hamilton (ironically, a federalist) argued, to depend upon the negation: that the government HAS NO POWER beyond what it has been explicitly granted: Don't positively list powers it doesn't have; instead, positively list what powers it DOES have, negate EVERYTHING else, and leave it at that.

The very fact that you (and too many others) believe that the right to bear arms DEPENDS UPON the 2nd amendment shows the abject confusion that is precisely what Hamilton sought to avoid! But the anti-federalists just HAD to have it, so the compromise was hatched. And the irony has come full-bloom, as now the very ANTI-federalism that got us the bill of rights in the first place had been undone BY the bill of rights and has blossomed into a RADICAL FEDERALISM based upon the confusion that these amendments GRANT RIGHTS and that the federal government can do ANYTHING not explicitly precluded by the bill of rights.

And thus we have a SCOTUS justice asking the fateful question regarding Obamacare: "If government can do THIS, then what can government not do?" And SHOCKINGLY, he answered his own question by ruling that the government CAN DO ANYTHING! Thus, in our lifetimes, we see the principles that BOTH the federalists AND anti-federalists alike sought to establish and protect instead trodden underfoot, as we are overtaken by a RADICAL FEDERALISM that even causes us to debate the meaning and legitimacy of CLEAR amendments like the 2nd.

The bill of rights does NOT grant rights. These amendments were written by ANTI-federalists to explicitly ACKNOWLEDGE and HONOR rights that pre-exist ALL forms of government, and to (attempt to) protect them from ANY federal intrusion! The federal government has NO constitutional power to infringe upon the right to bear arms, and that FACT is in NO way derived from the 2nd amendment. The right to bear arms (appropriate to the right of self-defense and of potential revolution) would exist INALIENABLY in the people regardless of the existence or removal of the 2nd amendment.

So, dicker and debate the 2nd amendment all you like. Even attempt to get it removed. But in so doing you only reveal your deep confusion about the nature of legitimate government and the history of the United States.

You'll quote a single, confused SCOTUS justice when it suits your purposes, but you are ignorant and confused about the founding history and the principles of rights and legitimate government enshrined in the founding of this nation.

If you don't like the implications of liberty, such as the fact that FREE people are not as "safe" as little sheep tucked into their warm little fold, then MOVE yourself to a nation of sheep.

The United States was NEVER supposed to be Europe or to be compared to the metrics of Europe. But if you want, say, France, then, PLEASE, go there immediately and be among the sheep that are just like you. While there, you can moan and snivel and cry about how the government didn't protect you from those bad, bad terrorists, as though UNARMED cops could do much of anything. Yes, GO to Europe and revel in all that "free" stuff and "safety." I hear that Greece was a great place to live until fairly recently, when the shoe finally dropped.

If you want European principles, then GO to Europe rather than to call yourself an "American" while doing everything in your power to undermine everything that made America so different from and better than Europe.
RyanD

climber
Dec 5, 2015 - 12:07am PT
"Better"


Good one.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 5, 2015 - 12:43am PT
We get it, you're a NATURAL RIGHTS proponent. And, when it comes to weapons, if we were a population of 2.5m who lived on a frontier with muskets for food as well as defense then I'd agree with you. But we are now 314m, live in megacities, don't hunt for food and automatic weapons are well within the price reach of the average person.

I also get that NATURAL starting position drives your FOSSIL CONSTITUTION position because if the constitution were dynamic with respect to the world we actually live in then the working assumption is our rights would then be open to being continuously abridged as a result. But It's a bankrupt position and even the most conservative jurists on the bench don't buy it. Your ideal position unavoidably would allow me to personally possess biological, chemical and nuclear weapons with no ability of the government to intervene. And you know that even our conservative justices don't buy it or there would be open and concealed carry in their courtroom.

And f*#k guns. Guns, in monetary terms, are ATM-scale violence. We now unfortunately live in a world where I personally can commit federal reserve-scale violence. I could clear out my shop for a CRISPR lab, decide to retire and use my industrial TCP/IP skills for less-than-benevolent purposes, or find novel untraceable surface-to-air uses for high power lasers in defense against unconstitutional overflights of my property. Bottom line is mine is an active world of very real consequences whereas yours is a passive world of principles without them.

And I would go even further and say modern transportation, communication and computing capabilities have rendered the very notion of states an anachronism we can now ill-afford from governance, infrastructure and comparative advantage perspectives. The sooner they are abolished, the better off we will be as a nation.
overwatch

climber
Dec 5, 2015 - 07:24am PT
The wall of text at least makes a legitimate attempt at defending its position without the tactics of the anti side (personal attacks, name calling, endless graphics; I hate that other dumb word)

You too DeeMizzleTizzle...good post and I would probably be called a gun guy by the anti's. (I have 8 guns)
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2015 - 08:20am PT
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Dec 5, 2015 - 09:08am PT

The New York Times today: End The Gun Epidemic in America - http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/05/opinion/end-the-gun-epidemic-in-america.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-top-region®ion=opinion-c-col-top-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-top-region&_r=0
Norton

Social climber
Dec 5, 2015 - 09:16am PT
I read this morning that ISIS said that the San Bernardino killers were merely "followers" of ISIS and not members thereof.

perhaps true members have to be officially dipped in blood or something....
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 5, 2015 - 09:30am PT
More likely Al Nusra (an Al Qaeda offshoot) since they got their training in Soddy Arabia

http://rantburg.com/poparticle.php?D=12/05/2015&SO=&HC=3&ID=437617

Doesn't matter which version of the death cult of the child molesting warlord enabled this.

There are virulent fascistic, racist cults out there murdering anyone that will not submit to their version of Islam.

Meanwhile you all go on for pages about disarming the potential victims while refusing to give a name to evil.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2015 - 09:35am PT
I'll give the evil a name, it's Ignorance.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 5, 2015 - 10:57am PT
We get it, you're a NATURAL RIGHTS proponent. And, when it comes to weapons, if we were a population of 2.5m who lived on a frontier with muskets for food as well as defense then I'd agree with you. But we are now 314m, live in megacities, don't hunt for food and automatic weapons are well within the price reach of the average person.

Circumstances do not constrain principles. And if you HONESTLY believed that they did, then you'd have to say that slavery was RIGHT as long as it was convenient.

I also get that NATURAL starting position drives your FOSSIL CONSTITUTION position because if the constitution were dynamic with respect to the world we actually live in then the working assumption is our rights would then be open to being continuously abridged as a result.

I don't believe in a "fossil constitution" in the sense you are saying here. I do believe in a dynamic, changeable constitution... within the limits imposed by rights.

Your last sentence makes the same mistake as most make here: conflating rights with documents. Our RIGHTS cannot be abridged or changed due to changes in a document. Rather, proposed changes in the document must be held up against the light of rights to see if the proposed changes conform to rights.

But It's a bankrupt position and even the most conservative jurists on the bench don't buy it.

That's a really lame argument, so I'm surprised you're floating it. Right and wrong are not determined by majority, by the SCOTUS, or by any other document or group of guys. You know this to be true, because, as I said above, you would then be forced to say that slavery was RIGHT for its time. Hitler was RIGHT for his nation in his time. And so on.

The objectivity of rights is not a "bankrupt position" merely because so few presently remember it. And the vast confusion on the part of the SCOTUS is irrelevant regarding the legitimacy of a position.

Your ideal position unavoidably would allow me to personally possess biological, chemical and nuclear weapons with no ability of the government to intervene.

Absolutely not! That's a straw-man argument, and you know it. I've repeatedly explained that there is a very principled and bright line between weapons of personal defense and WMDs. Don't pretend that my position is a slippery slope. That's an argument you try to float to the run-of-the-mill, ignorant gun-nuts. I am none of the above, and my position in NO way implies some supposed "right" of individuals to possess WMDs!

And you know that even our conservative justices don't buy it or there would be open and concealed carry in their courtroom.

Again, you conflate "what is done" or "what is believed" with "what is true and correct." Just the fact that there ARE gun-free zones does NOT imply that this position is correct or consistent.

And f*#k guns. Guns, in monetary terms, are ATM-scale violence. We now unfortunately live in a world where I personally can commit federal reserve-scale violence. I could clear out my shop for a CRISPR lab, decide to retire and use my industrial TCP/IP skills for less-than-benevolent purposes, or find novel untraceable surface-to-air uses for high power lasers in defense against unconstitutional overflights of my property. Bottom line is mine is an active world of very real consequences whereas yours is a passive world of principles without them.

It's funny that I'm accused of ranting. That was quite a rant, Joe.

Your world is not what you say it is, and neither is mine.

And I would go even further and say modern transportation, communication and computing capabilities have rendered the very notion of states an anachronism we can now ill-afford from governance, infrastructure and comparative advantage perspectives. The sooner they are abolished, the better off we will be as a nation.

Yikes! And I'M the "radical"?

Not on my watch, Joe. Not on my watch.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2015 - 11:00am PT
I'm sure we all feel safer knowing MB1 is on watch.


johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Dec 5, 2015 - 11:32am PT
If you want to propose gun regulation that has any chance of change for the good of the whole, It must come from facts and not emotions.

Fair enough.
Then why all the amped up fear over Syrian refugees?
Fact is your many times more likely to get shot by an armed, white, American male.

http://usuncut.com/news/white-terrorist/

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/11/john-oliver-rips-huckabee-over-refugee-fear-mongering-more-men-named-mike-have-killed-people/



philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2015 - 12:26pm PT

So called "Bullet Proof" blankets for kids to cower under during shooting rampages at school.
Only in Uhmurkkka land of the scared home of the stupid.

Is this really the world you want kids to be forced to grow up in simply to maintain your irrational need to be packing 24/7?


Maybe you should take a closer look at the man in the mirror.
if he still scares you then by all means shoot him.


If this is the reality that the NRA and 2nd Amendment adherents think makes sense then I suggest the US Gov should immediately impose a 50+% tax on all gun and ammo sales to fund the hardening of schools against attack.
Hell just skip school and send all kids straight to jail. After all prison life is a more realistic education in the domestic war zone aka Uhmurkkka.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 5, 2015 - 12:38pm PT

Dec 4, 2015 - 11:18pm PT
Mr Brennan writes:

"That sounds like even though I'm not classified as American, I'm still protected by the American Constitution and Bill of Rights while on American soil."



As a foreigner, you only have the rights that a majority of Congress says you have. The rights in our Constitution are for "Ourselves and our Posterity".

Good morning, gentlemen.

I will suggest you both actually read the text of the constitution.
http://constitutioncenter.org/media/files/constitution.pdf

It makes distinctions between "the people" ,"persons", and "citizens". Some would say "the people of the United States" is a separate category, but membership in that class isn't defined in the founding document, and it only appears at the beginning of the document , before citizenship is defined and as a claim to who is doing the deciding. It doesn't necessarily exclude anybody.

In English, People is almost universally a plural word, a body of the whole. It is certainly that in "We the people". The words person and citizen are singular. If you wish to include more that one of a singular class, the second two become persons and citizens, and rights and duties extend to each individual of the class.

Congress and the president are empowered to legislate and enforce what some rights are for each class, and the constitution restrict their power to do so in other cases. But the document gave states the full power to decide who their citizens could be up to 1808, and arguably, beyond.


In a few cases, the rights of the accused are SPECIFICALLY applied to some citizens of other nations, and enumerate which body is authorized to try them, and what their rights at trial are.

One example is this
Amendment 6 - Right to Speedy Trial, Confrontation of Witnesses. Ratified 12/15/1791.
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses



And this

section 3 - Treason
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

And this:
In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction. In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make

Congress has no power to deny these rights. Article 3 ( judiciary) and the 11th ammendment grant jurisdiction in the courts to foreigners.

Only perversely tortured reasoning would suggest that a foreign citizen is not entitled to due process under these provisions. The right to trial says" all criminal prosecution" and "accused".

A foreigner has the same right to be spared punishment by drawing and quartering ("corruption of blood" ) that a citizen has. Rest easy, Canadians.

As I think of it, that clause might extend to protection from sentence of death by lethal injection.

The constitution is replete with examples that extend rights to foreigners unless you wish to argue a foreigner isn't a person. (Good luck with that), including the first, possibly the second (right to keep and bear arms, since " congress shall make no law" etc.), the third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, and eight amendments. Read them carefully.

To argue otherwise would actually empower foreigners with rights citizens don't have. For instance, if you argue a foreigner is not a person under the constitution, he is immune from the requirement to extradition from state to state for crimes, since the state right to demand extradition extends to persons.

Probably the most telling clauses to be found in the constitution of what the founding fathers thought a person is are two sections of article IV:

A Person charged in any State with Treason, Felony, or other Crime, who shall flee from Justice, and be found in another State, shall on demand of the executive Authority of the State from which he fled, be delivered up, to be removed to the State having Jurisdiction of the Crime.
(No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, But shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due.)

The part in parentheses is of course the fugitive slave clause, no longer in effect. The Supreme courts during slavery determined that slaves were persons with no rights and no citizenship, while at the same time classing them persons. Even they were subject to the clause before.

Who a citizen is, other than a person born in the United States, is nowhere fully defined until the thirteenth and fourteenth ammendments, except to say that individual states had full right to determine that until 1808. The constitution does include the concept that citizenship of a state confers citizenship to the Nation.

The thirteenth ammendment does make a pass at defining citizenship, then says the right to full protection under the law cannot be denied to any "person" by a State.

Non citizens shall be counted in census for apportionment of the house (except,originally, untaxed Indians but including Slaves) , and the speaker of the house need be neither elected nor a citizen. The original constitution only really requires that the President and elected members of the house and Senate be a natural born or naturalized citizen. (The president must be natural born) I don't even see where the Vice President, president pro tempore, or Supreme Court Justices must be citizens, but it isn't in the first four articles that define those bodies. So it can't be seen as a requirement by the founding authors. If you consider the position of Acting President as distinct from President, a foreigner could be running the armed forces and a Foreiner Vice President could break ties in The Senate. A foreign Chief Justice could preside over the impeachment of a President.

Even in the case of voting, the constitution does not deny foreigners the right to vote. The power to decide that is ceded to the states. The Constitution in its amendments DOES say that you can't deny the right to vote on the basis of sex, race, etc. to citizens. It doesn't say states can't extend the right to foreigners.

Spend a day reading the document carefully, with an idea of what words mean and what words are in the document ( and aren't ). As otherwise noted, the word "inalienable" isn't in the document. Word search doesn't produce it. You probably should not invent a quote attributable to the constitution with that word in it. The Constitution is actually an ammendment of the Articles of Confederation and ratified under the terms of that document. I'd highly suggest reading that also. "Inalienable" doesn't appear there, either.

The word does appear in another founding document, specifically the Declaration of Independence as Unalienable. If you use it, tell us how it applies to the other two documents.

Here's a hint:

"Amendment 10 - Powers of the States and People. Ratified 12/15/1791.
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

And:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

It would seem unalienable rights are not restricted to citizens or empowered by the Constitution , but endowed by their creator to all and include other unalienable rights.

Note it's their creator, not yours.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2015 - 01:26pm PT


Man hugged girl, 7, at soccer practice, then killed her
Gina Damron and By Ann Zaniewski, Detroit Free Press Education Writer 1:41 p.m. EST December 5, 2015

Emma Watson Nowling took a quick break from soccer practice Thursday night to greet a man walking by the sidelines.
"Little Emma went up and gave the guy a hug," Emma's soccer coach, Mario Scicluna, said.
Later that night, that man, Timothy Nelson Obeshaw, shot 7-year-old Emma and her mother, 37-year-old Sharon Elizabeth Watson, in the parking lot of the Taylor Sportsplex before turning his 9mm pistol on himself, according to Taylor police. Authorities described Obeshaw as a family friend.
Emma died from her injuries. Watson is in serious condition at a local hospital, police said.
Police said family members described the 57-year-old Obeshaw — who had lived with Watson and her boyfriend at their home in Belleville before recently moving to a home in Taylor — as mentally unstable. A motive, though, remains unclear, according to police.

"Police found evidence that Obeshaw believed someone was trying to perform mind control on him," according to a news release from the Taylor Police Department.


DETROIT FREE PRESS
Man shoots 2, kills self at Taylor Sportsplex

Police said the girl and her mother were at the Sportsplex for soccer practice. Obeshaw was there, too, and "there was what appeared to be friendly interaction between the three at the start of practice," the release says.

Sharon Elizabeth Watson, 37, and her 7-year-old daughter Emma Watson Nowling were shot in the parking lot of the Taylor Sportsplex on Dec. 3, 2015. Emma died from injuries and her mother is in serious condition, police said. (Photo: Courtesy of the Taylor Police Department)
Scicluna said Obeshaw had attended Emma's games before. Obeshaw arrived about 15 minutes after practice started at 6:30 p.m., Scicluna said.

"As he was walking by the sidelines, (Emma) went up and gave him a big hug and went back to her training," he said.

Scicluna didn't notice any signs of trouble. But as the mother and daughter were preparing to leave just before 8 p.m., Obeshaw, who had registered the handgun in his name in Belleville in September, shot them in their vehicle, then killed himself, police said. The gun was recovered, according to police.

Scicluna said he learned something was wrong when he saw "the panicked looked on some of the parents running the other way," and the flashing lights of police cars. About 40 children were at practice that night.

"A lot of the families are in shock and were traumatized by what happened," he said.

Scicluna said he had been coaching Emma, who plays as part of the Waza F.C. soccer club, for about two months. She was always smiling, he said.

"She was a fun, excited girl," he said. "As time went on, she developed her soccer skills very rapidly, and was showing a lot of enthusiasm for the game. She had a bright future ahead of her."

Scicluna is starting a GoFundMe page to raise money for Emma's family.

He said players will honor her with a moment of silence at soccer games this weekend.

Contact Gina Damron: 313-223-4526 or gdamron@freepress.com




So here was a guy with a LEGALLY obtained and registered gun who went from your classic "good guy with a gun" to a "bad guy with a gun" in a frighteningly short period of time.

I'm sure the NRA and our few resident gunhuggers will suggest that all those little soccer kids and stressed out soccer moms should have been open carrying guns. Just imagine teams of pee wee league soccer kids playing ball while packing heat. Yeah that will surely deter the good guys gone bad. What could possibly go wrong.
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Dec 5, 2015 - 03:14pm PT
I don't know.

I think mostly we think there's a right answer and I have it! and if only everyone else could have it too then we'd be all cool, and while we're each so sure that our answer is the right answer because of our own omniscient omnipotent awesomeness, I think we're each just pieces of reality working out the solution of what's the right way for us to believe, and what's the right balance of greed and altruism and violence and pacifism for us, and it just leaves us all believing our neighbors are nutcases for not seeing reality the right way, the way that I see it.

So yea, sure, I agree :-)
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 5, 2015 - 03:17pm PT
Philo, fear of normal Syrian refugees (who've we've bombed out of their homes) is just as irrational as this fear of firearms and those who legally possess them that you have.

philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2015 - 03:18pm PT
The same reason Philo posts over and over the "Potential" for mayhem from a Gun Owner.

Actually I don't do that. I post the facts about gun violence in America and about the actual carnage occuring weekly.


Keep your head in the sand, sand fleas are hungry.

It is you folks with the arsenals and handguns under your pillow that are the ones afraid.
Why else would you need to be packing 24/7?
I'm not afraid I am outraged by the needless carnage and the unconscionable toll of stress it burdens our children with.
Is your insistance in your right to pack heat really worth the cost to society?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 5, 2015 - 03:22pm PT
GLillegard posted
Despite national attention to the issue of firearm violence, most Americans are unaware that gun crime is lower today than it was two decades ago. According to a new Pew Research Center survey, today 56% of Americans believe gun crime is higher than 20 years ago and only 12% think it is lower.

Crime rates (2011 / 2013)
Crime type Rate*
Homicide: 4.6 / 4.5
Forcible rape: 27.0 / 26.9
Robbery: 113.9 / 112.9
Aggravated assault: 241.5 / 242.3
Total violent crime: 387.1 / 386.9

Media coverage drives perception so it's understandable why people think it's worse. It's not down by terribly impressive amounts, however, and even if it was down 20%, 9,600 gun homicides would still be unacceptable.
Norton

Social climber
Dec 5, 2015 - 03:28pm PT
fear of normal Syrian refugees (who've we've bombed out of their homes) is just as irrational as this fear of firearms and those who legally possess them that you have.

yet legally purchased guns owned by otherwise "law abiding" people just used those
guns to murder some 17 people

and that is equivalent to being equally as "fearful" of refugee families?

contorted rationalization, imo
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2015 - 03:31pm PT
Reread my post about the legal gun owner who shot and killed the seven year old soccer player. Good guy legal gun owner v dead seven year old and severely wounded mom.



Hey hey hey NRA how many kids did you kill today.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 5, 2015 - 03:32pm PT
Islamonazis manage to make do without guns.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/624571/machete-attack-Leytonstone-Syria

philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2015 - 03:36pm PT
So three victims (no dead) from a machete attack and the perp is quickly subdued.
And if he had a semi automatic with a 30 round mag?


HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 5, 2015 - 03:42pm PT
TGT posted
Islamonazis manage to make do without guns.

Clearly we should make sure that they have easy access to semi-auto and automatic weapons.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2015 - 03:48pm PT
Las Vegas ASSembly woman Michele Fiore sez


Merry Christmas from the AmeriKKKunts.
WWJP What would Jesus pack
An AR-15 of course.
The weapon of choice for modern mass murderers.



OUT OF CONTROL
Gun used in the San Bernardino massacre is a mass shooting mainstay
One of the guns used to kill 14 people in San Bernardino, CA this past week has also been used in mass shooting after mass shooting in recent years.

The AR-15—a semi-automatic rifle that one of its makers, Colt, describes as being produced for “our Armed Forces”—has played an outsized role in America’s gun massacres, as CBS News summarized on Friday:

An AR-15 was used to kill nine people at Umpqua Community College in Oregon in October.

It was also the weapon used in the murders of 12 people at a Colorado movie theater in 2012.

And an AR-15 was used in the 2012 murders of 20 first graders and six adults in Newtown, Connecticut.

CBS spoke to a gun store owner who called the AR-15 “America’s rifle” and added, “You’re going to find more of those in safes at home than you’ll find of any other rifle in the country.”

Sales of the AR-15 spiked after the Newtown shootings, as potential gun owners feared—wrongly, it turned out—that they might be subject to new gun control restrictions. Though the market has cooled off a bit recently. They’re popular because, as CNN noted, they can be customized in a dizzying number of ways. One manufacturer gives purchasers at least 17 different ways to build on its basic model.

As it happens, the AR-15s used in the San Bernardino shooting was illegal under California law because of the way it had been customized.

Some forms of the AR-15 were banned under the 1994 Federal Assault Weapons Ban, but the ban expired in 2004.

So obviously the NRA's response should be to promote a pink and purple my little pony version of the AR-15.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 5, 2015 - 03:54pm PT
Clearly we should make sure that they have easy access to semi-auto and automatic weapons.

Don't need to. The second amendment says the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Doesn't exclude anyone, The NRA says.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 5, 2015 - 04:42pm PT
Is this really the world you want kids to be forced to grow up in simply to maintain your irrational need to be packing 24/7?

Are you asking a generation that was taught the same defense against nuclear weapons?

Duck and cover was official US policy in the 50's and 60's. They didn't give even us a blanket.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Dec 5, 2015 - 05:12pm PT
A foreigner has the same right to be spared punishment by drawing and quartering ("corruption of blood" ) that a citizen has. Rest easy, Canadians.

"Corruption of blood" has nothing to do with "drawing and quartering" (other than both being historical punishments).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attainder
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2015 - 05:17pm PT

Is this really the world you want kids to be forced to grow up in simply to maintain your irrational need to be packing 24/7?

Are you asking a generation that was taught the same defense against nuclear weapons?

Duck and cover was official US policy in the 50's and 60's. They didn't give even us a blanket.

Well that was my generations fire breathing dragon and the parallel is not lost on me.
But then the answer to the insanity was not more bombs and nuclear prolifferation was it?
Wonder if the parallel will be lost on the gunhuggers.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2015 - 05:33pm PT
How They Got Their Guns
By LARRY BUCHANAN, JOSH KELLER, RICHARD A. OPPEL Jr. and DANIEL VICTOR UPDATED December 3, 2015

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/10/03/us/how-mass-shooters-got-their-guns.html?_r=0

The vast majority of guns used in 15 recent mass shootings, including at least two of the guns used in the San Bernardino attack, were bought legally and with a federal background check. At least eight gunmen had criminal histories or documented mental health problems that did not prevent them from obtaining their weapons.

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 5, 2015 - 05:40pm PT

Phylo,
So by your own admission the big government you want to put in charge of confiscation is incompetent?

Says the shoe resoler about someone that had gone to the Supreme court and won more than once.


Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 5, 2015 - 05:41pm PT
Philo,

The San Bernardino terrorists didn't legally obtain any of those guns. Just by being in possession of those guns, those two were committing felonies.

You need to smarten-up regarding the gun laws in California.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2015 - 05:43pm PT
OVER SEVERAL YEARS
The F.B.I. found evidence that Mr. Farook was in touch with people domestically and abroad who have Islamist extremist views, according to officials.

BEFORE SHOOTING
The chief of the San Bernardino Police Department said he was not aware of the suspects having any previous contact with law enforcement.

BEFORE SHOOTING
Mr. Farook bought the two handguns legally at Annie’s Get Your Gun, a gun store in Corona, Calif., The Los Angeles Times reported. Someone who is not a suspect bought the two assault rifles legally, officials said, but it is unclear how the attackers obtained them, or whether that transaction was legal.

DEC. 2, 2015
The couple killed 14 people at a holiday party. Moments before the attack began, Ms. Malik posted an oath of alligience to the Islamic State on Facebook.
WBraun

climber
Dec 5, 2015 - 05:49pm PT
All bullsh!t you've been 0wned again.

The whole thing was a criminal setup where they murdered two people and framed them.

Stoopid nutcase Americans believe everything spoon fed to then by their criminal media ...
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2015 - 05:50pm PT
Christopher Harper-Mercer, 26, killed nine people at Umpqua Community College in Oregon, where he was a student. He was armed with six guns, including a Glock pistol, a Smith & Wesson pistol, a Taurus pistol and a Del-Ton assault rifle, according to The Associated Press.
2008
Mr. Harper-Mercer was in the Army for one month, but was discharged before completing basic training.

2009
He graduated from the Switzer Learning Center in Torrance, Calif., which teaches students with learning disabilities and emotional issues.

BEFORE SHOOTING
In all, Mr. Harper-Mercer owned 14 firearms, all of which were bought legally through a federally licensed firearms dealer, a federal official said. Some were bought by Mr. Harper-Mercer, and some by members of his family.

OCT. 1, 2015
He killed nine people in Roseburg, Ore.
Norton

Social climber
Dec 5, 2015 - 05:51pm PT
Mr. Farook bought the two handguns legally at Annie’s Get Your Gun, a gun store in Corona, Calif., T


and back to you Chaz to refute that.......
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2015 - 05:52pm PT
AUG. 26, 2015
Vester Lee Flanagan II, 41, shot and killed a Roanoke, Va., television reporter and a cameraman with a Glock handgun while they were reporting a story live.

2000
Mr. Flanagan filed a lawsuit against a TV station in Tallahassee, Fla., that had fired him, alleging he was the victim of racial slurs and bullying.

2012
He was hired at WDBJ in Roanoke, but within months his bosses had documented problems with his harsh language and aggressive behavior. He was later fired and filed another harassment lawsuit.

JUNE 2015
Federal officials said Mr. Flanagan bought the gun legally from a licensed dealer. He had not been convicted of a crime or determined to be mentally ill.

AUG. 26, 2015
Mr. Flanagan killed the reporter and cameraman, injured a woman who was being interviewed and died after shooting himself.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 5, 2015 - 05:54pm PT
You still refuse to deal with the fact that the "religion of peace" in reality is the death cult of the child molesting warlord.

The feds, his family, fellow mosque members all looked the other way.

How come?

Even the neighbor who saw the bomb factory in the garage was dissuaded from saying anything so not to be assumed "racist".

10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired Climber
Dec 5, 2015 - 06:18pm PT

Ted Cruz is such a fuking idiot...

+1
Was he the model for Bob's Big Boy?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 5, 2015 - 06:27pm PT
Hoe many cases have you taken to the Supremes and won?
Norton

Social climber
Dec 5, 2015 - 06:31pm PT
Truth be told, TGT, you are correct

Islam is indeed a "religion of peace"

There are over 1.5 BILLION Muslims practicing Islam in the world

of which only a very small percentage are radicalized, extremists


kind of like your good old Christian Bible, isn't it?

where it commands humans to rape, murder and enslave other murders

but by far most Christians don't believe that nonsense

just like by far most Muslims don't buy into the bad sh#t in the Koran

thanks for pointing this out, TGT

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 5, 2015 - 06:32pm PT
http://theaviationist.com/2015/12/05/fbi-activity-san-bernardino-attack/

Islam is indeed a "religion of peace"

Read the Koran cover to cover and sample the Hadiths and come back and tell us if you still hold the same view.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2015 - 06:42pm PT
There are 842 violent or cruel passages in the Bible compared to 333 in the Quran.

How well do you know your violent religions?

The following 30 violent exhortations are drawn from Jewish, Christian and Muslim scriptures. The generic word "God" is used for all deity names, and names of places or people have been replaced with generic terms. How well do you know your Torah, Bible or Quran and Hadith? Can you tell which is which? Give it a try and then check the key at the bottom.

1. Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the [holy man] who represents God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged.

2. I decided to order a man to lead the prayer and then take a flame to burn all those, who had not left their houses for the prayer, burning them alive inside their homes.

3. I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am God.

4. Fight them until there is no more [disbelief or worshipping of other gods] and worship is for God alone.

5. Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother-in-law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

6. Whoso fighteth in the way of God, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.

7. Make ready to slaughter [the infidel’s] sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants.

8. [God’s messenger]... was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The [holy man] replied, "They [women and children] are from them [unbelievers]."

9. Then I heard God say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children.”

10. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.


11. Keep [my holiday], for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die.

12. The punishment of those who wage war against God and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement.

13. If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death.

14. It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he had made a great slaughter in the land...

15. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

16. I shall terrorize the [heathens]. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them, because they oppose God and his apostle.

17. A [holy man’s] daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death.

18. So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them.

19. Everyone who would not seek God was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

20. And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction.


21. But if [a girl wasn't a virgin on her wedding night] and evidence of the girl's virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her father’s house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against God’s people by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst.

22. The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say, "O [believer]! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

23. If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you.

24. God’s Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but God."

25. Cursed be he who does God’s work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood.

26. God said, "A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. [Prophet], you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But God desires killing them to manifest the religion."

27. Anyone who blasphemes God’s name must be stoned to death by the whole community of [believers].

28. When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) [your religion]; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them... If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them [a tax]. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek God's help and fight them.

29. Anyone else who goes too near the [Holy Place] will be executed.

30. Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us.


Is the Quran more violent than the Bible? The question is hard to answer. A tally at the Skeptic’s Annotated Bible counts 842 violent or cruel passages in the Bible as compared to 333 in the Quran. That said, the Bible is a much thicker tome, and even though the New Testament endorses and adds to the violence in the Old, when percentages are compared, the Quran comes out ahead. In addition, the kinds of cruelty and violence vary as do the perpetrator and victim and the extent to which any verse can be interpreted as divine sanction for the behavior in question. Either way, this short test offers an illustrative sample from each sacred text.

Bible and Quran believers who recognize verses in this list will no doubt protest that they have been taken out of context, as indeed they have. I think the appropriate response to such a complaint is a question: What context, exactly, would make these verses uplifting, inspiring or worthy of praise? In what context are passages like these some of the most important and holy guidance that the creator of the universe might think to impart to humankind? In what context is a book that contains these passages and many, many more like them the apogee of divine goodness and timeless wisdom?

Members of each Abrahamic tradition are quick to point out the rational and moral flaws in the others. I wonder sometimes, what this world might be like if they were as quick to examine the flaws in their own.

__

Key: Odd numbered quotes are from the Bible, even numbers from the Quran or Hadith. 1. Deuteronomy17:12 NLT; 2. Bukhari 11:626; 3. Ezekiel 35:7-9 NLT; 4. Quran 2:193; 5. Matthew 10:34-35; 6. Quran 4:74; 7.Isaiah 14:21 NAB; 8. Bukhari 52:256; 9. Ezekiel 9:5 NLT; 10. Quran 8:12; 11. Exodus 31:12-15 NLT; 12. Quran5:33; 13. Leviticus 20:10 NLT; 14. Quran 8:67; 15. Numbers 31: 17-18 KJV; 16. Quran 8:12; 17. Leviticus 21:9 NAB; 18. Quran 9:5; 19. 2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB; 20. Quran 17:16; 21. Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB; 22.Bukhari 52:177; 23. Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB; 24. Bukhari 8:387; 25. Jeremiah 48:10 NAB; 26. Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 484; 27. Leviticus 24:16 NLT; 28. Muslim 19:4294; 29. Numbers 1: 51 NLT; 30. Tabari 9:69
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 5, 2015 - 07:08pm PT

Dec 5, 2015 - 06:32pm PT
http://theaviationist.com/2015/12/05/fbi-activity-san-bernardino-attack/

Islam is indeed a "religion of peace"

Read the Koran cover to cover and sample the Hadiths and come back and tell us if you still hold the same view.

Tell you what.

You read the bible cover to cover and we'll do a comparative analysis.
zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 5, 2015 - 07:13pm PT
Kinda makes you wonder what religion Philippine 'head hunters' practice.



You shoulda been there when they got a hold of Ak-47's.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Dec 5, 2015 - 07:19pm PT
The whole thing was a criminal setup where they murdered two people and framed them.

philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2015 - 07:21pm PT
JULY 23, 2015
Using a .40-caliber semiautomatic pistol bought from a pawnshop, John R. Houser killed two people and wounded nine others at a movie theater in Lafayette, La.

2006
Mr. Houser was denied a state-issued concealed weapons permit because he was accused of domestic violence and soliciting arson.

2008
A judge ordered him sent to a psychiatric hospital.

2014
Mr. Houser bought the weapon in Alabama. Officials said it had been purchased legally, though he had been denied a concealed weapons permit earlier, and despite concerns among family members that he was violent and mentally ill.

JULY 23, 2015
He killed two people in Lafayette.
zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 5, 2015 - 07:24pm PT
^Dude would have never lasted in the Philippines.

Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 5, 2015 - 07:54pm PT
End the Gun Epidemic in America

​It is a moral outrage and national disgrace that civilians can legally purchase weapons designed to kill people with brutal speed and efficiency.


By THE EDITORIAL BOARD
DEC. 4, 2015

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/05/opinion/end-the-gun-epidemic-in-america.html

All decent people feel sorrow and righteous fury about the latest slaughter of innocents, in California. Law enforcement and intelligence agencies are searching for motivations, including the vital question of how the murderers might have been connected to international terrorism. That is right and proper.

But motives do not matter to the dead in California, nor did they in Colorado, Oregon, South Carolina, Virginia, Connecticut and far too many other places. The attention and anger of Americans should also be directed at the elected leaders whose job is to keep us safe but who place a higher premium on the money and political power of an industry dedicated to profiting from the unfettered spread of ever more powerful firearms.


It is a moral outrage and a national disgrace that civilians can legally purchase weapons designed specifically to kill people with brutal speed and efficiency. These are weapons of war, barely modified and deliberately marketed as tools of macho vigilantism and even insurrection. America’s elected leaders offer prayers for gun victims and then, callously and without fear of consequence, reject the most basic restrictions on weapons of mass killing, as they did on Thursday. They distract us with arguments about the word terrorism. Let’s be clear: These spree killings are all, in their own ways, acts of terrorism.


Opponents of gun control are saying, as they do after every killing, that no law can unfailingly forestall a specific criminal. That is true. They are talking, many with sincerity, about the constitutional challenges to effective gun regulation. Those challenges exist. They point out that determined killers obtained weapons illegally in places like France, England and Norway that have strict gun laws. Yes, they did.

But at least those countries are trying. The United States is not. Worse, politicians abet would-be killers by creating gun markets for them, and voters allow those politicians to keep their jobs. It is past time to stop talking about halting the spread of firearms, and instead to reduce their number drastically — eliminating some large categories of weapons and ammunition.

It is not necessary to debate the peculiar wording of the Second Amendment. No right is unlimited and immune from reasonable regulation.

Certain kinds of weapons, like the slightly modified combat rifles used in California, and certain kinds of ammunition, must be outlawed for civilian ownership. It is possible to define those guns in a clear and effective way and, yes, it would require Americans who own those kinds of weapons to give them up for the good of their fellow citizens.

What better time than during a presidential election to show, at long last, that our nation has retained its sense of decency?
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2015 - 07:57pm PT
JUNE 17, 2015
Dylann Roof, 21, killed nine people with a .45-caliber Glock pistol at a historic black church in Charleston, S.C.

FEBRUARY 2015
Mr. Roof was charged with a misdemeanor for possessing Suboxone, a prescription drug frequently sold in illegal street transactions.

APRIL 2015
He purchased a gun from a store in West Columbia, S.C. Mr. Roof should have been barred from buying a gun because he had admitted to possessing drugs, but the F.B.I. examiner conducting the required background check failed to obtain the police report from the February incident.

JUNE 17, 2015
Mr. Roof joined a Bible study group at Emanuel A.M.E. Church and opened fire with the gun he bought in April.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 5, 2015 - 10:15pm PT







madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 6, 2015 - 03:42am PT
It is a moral outrage and national disgrace that civilians can legally purchase weapons designed to kill people with brutal speed and efficiency.

Rrrriiighhhttt!

ONLY our utterly trustworthy government and cops should have that sort of power (over us).

And when it comes to killing somebody that needs killing, the humane way IS with "brutal speed and efficiency." Would you rather that they die the death of a thousand cuts? Would that somehow be more "moral"?

Or, are you really saying that civilians HAVE no right of self-defense, or that they are "morally" entitled ONLY to use spitwads against knife and gun-wielding criminals and terrorists?

This "moral outrage" BS is just that. It's totally unsustainable in the face of reasoned argument and just looks silly. It's an easy, armchair perspective that will not withstand the first serious encounter with real-world violence.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2015 - 05:11am PT

Merry Christmas from the AmeriKKKunts.
raymond phule

climber
Dec 6, 2015 - 05:30am PT
I would say that the huge difference between USA and the rest of the western world is that many ordinary non criminal Americans have guns for protection while almost none of ordinary non criminal non US western people have guns for protection.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 6, 2015 - 06:12am PT
ONLY our utterly trustworthy government and cops should have that sort of power (over us).


Yes.

Basing public policies on delusions about government takeovers has completely failed the American people.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2015 - 06:14am PT
OCT. 24, 2014
Jaylen Ray Fryberg, 15, used his father’s Beretta pistol to shoot and kill four students in his high school’s cafeteria in Marysville, Wash.

2002
Raymond Lee Fryberg Jr., Jaylen’s father, was the subject of a permanent domestic violence protection order, which should have been entered into the federal criminal background database.

2013
Mr. Fryberg applied to buy the Beretta from a gun shop on the Indian reservation where he lived with Jaylen. A background check failed to come up with the protection order because it was never entered into the system.

OCT. 24, 2014
Jaylen Fryberg texted five of his fellow students to come to the cafeteria, where he opened fire.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 6, 2015 - 07:11am PT



philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2015 - 07:24am PT
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2015 - 07:27am PT

APRIL 2, 2014
Specialist Ivan Antonio Lopez opened fire at Fort Hood with a Smith & Wesson semiautomatic pistol, killing three people and wounding 16 others.

2011
Specialist Lopez came back from a four-month deployment to Iraq and told his superiors that he had suffered a traumatic head injury there. Military officials said he had never seen combat and was being evaluated for possible post-traumatic stress disorder.

MARCH 2014
Specialist Lopez had seen a military psychiatrist as recently as the month before the shooting. He was being treated for depression and anxiety, and had been prescribed Ambien to help him sleep.

MARCH 1, 2014
Mr. Lopez bought his gun at the same shop where Nidal Malik Hasan, an Army major, had bought at least one of the weapons used in a 2009 mass shooting on the base that killed 13 people.

APRIL 2, 2014
Around 4 p.m., Mr. Lopez started firing on soldiers.
jonnyrig

climber
Dec 6, 2015 - 07:33am PT
Having just spent the night at a family Christmas party in the Bay, it is interesting to note that even the vehemently anti-gun members have begun to consider purchasing weapons for protection due to recent terrorist acts here and abroad. They asked specifically for recommendations regarding where to buy firearms, and ammunition for the dusty ones in the closet, inherited, and for which they currently possess none.

My response involved more than "Walmart". In all cases when the question of purchasing weapons for self-defense, I attempt to bring serious thought to the question, and recommendations for they type of training the anti-crowd would require of all owners.

1. How likely is it that you're going to need it? (Well, they are historically anti-gun, meaning that to consider purchase indicates they think the possibility is high.)
2. What is the typical range at which you believe confrontations justifying the use of such weaponry is likely to take place? (Stand back three paces and demonstrate. Ask: could you draw a weapon in that time frame?)
3. What is the risk to you and your family of having a firearm in the house, and how do you intend to store it so that a) it's accessible when needed and b) it's NOT accessible to those who should not touch it? (Point out options such as quick-access safes that require fingerprint or key combinations, as well as the fact that if kids can get cookies off the top of the fridge, they can get daddy's .40 cal off the bookshelf.)
4. How are you going to perform under duress, in fight-or-flight mode? (Point out that simply having a firearm is not enough. Recommend training from somewhere like Thunder Ranch, where scenarios are role-played that are taken directly from true-to-life events, so that you train to reality. Point out that under pressure, people react the way they train, meaning if you shoot casually at the range without seeking cover and retreat, without tactical reloads, then you're likely to stand there like an idiot meat target and fumble.)
5. Are you willing to take another human life in defense of your family? Can you make the snap decision required to prevent hesitation that could cause you to lose the weapon if you pause? (Answer should be yes if you're going to carry. Answering yes should mean only that you recognize that some people, as evidenced by most of Philo's posts, are more than willing to take your life and the lives of your loved ones without cause, and you also recognize there are possible no-exit scenarios from which you and your family may not have the option of duck-and-cover, such as in a classroom or restaurant, and that you are willing to kill an attacker to stop them if necessary.)

Especially in the case of someone who has been previously anti-gun, they should be willingly able to answer those questions before seriously considering a gun for defensive purposes. Otherwise, might as well join a militia... cause they can't seem to define their most sacred justification for owning a firearm either. Any way, looks like I'm going to have a few new range partners soon. Christmas day target practice, here we come!
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2015 - 07:40am PT

SEPT. 16, 2013
Aaron Alexis, 34, used a Remington shotgun to kill 12 people at the Washington Navy Yard.
2011
Mr. Alexis was given an honorable discharge after showing what Navy officials called a “pattern of misbehavior” during four years as a reservist.

A MONTH BEFORE THE SHOOTING
He twice sought treatment from the Department of Veterans Affairs for psychiatric issues. He told police in Rhode Island that people were pursuing him and sending vibrations through the walls of his hotel.

SEPT. 2013
He was stopped from buying an assault rifle at a Virginia gun store, but was allowed to buy a shotgun. He passed local and state background checks.

SEPT. 16, 2013
He killed 12 people at the Navy Yard.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 6, 2015 - 07:57am PT
Rafia Farook, the mother of San Bernardino terrorist Syed Rizwan Farook, is an active member of the Islamic Circle of North America (ICNA), a Muslim organization that promotes the establishment of a caliphate and has ties to a radical Pakistani political group called Jamaat-e-Islami.

Farook’s affiliation with ICNA was revealed on Friday when MSNBC and other new outlets scoured the Farooks’ apartment in Redlands, Cal. An MSNBC reporter found a certificate of appreciation presented to Safia Farook last summer by ICNA’s sisters’ wing.

philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2015 - 07:58am PT
2009
Mr. Lanza graduated from high school. Some classmates said he had been bullied in high school. He struggled with a developmental disorder and was described as acutely shy, not known to have close friends.

AFTER HIGH SCHOOL
He was “completely untreated in the years before the shooting” for psychiatric and physical ailments like anxiety and obsessive-compulsive disorder, a state report found.

BEFORE THE SHOOTING
His mother, Nancy Lanza, a gun enthusiast, legally obtained and registered a large collection of weapons and would often take her sons to shooting ranges.

DEC. 14, 2012
Mr. Lanza used his mother’s guns to kill her and 26 others.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 6, 2015 - 08:14am PT

Just November's headlines.

An Aiken County, S.C. couple who thought they were meeting with individuals whom they had arranged to purchase a car from on craigslist.com were instead met by a pair of armed robbers. While one of the robbers pointed a gun at the male victim, the female victim drew a gun and fired at the criminals, striking and killing one and causing the other to flee. (WBTV, Charlotte, N.C. 11/26/15, WRDW, Augusta, Ga. 11/26/15)


A man entered a Marathon gas station in Cincinnati, Ohio, pulled out a gun and menaced two store employees. One of the employees responded by retrieving a gun and firing at the criminal, striking him and causing him to flee. Police captured the wounded criminal nearby, and discovered that the weapon he had used inside the store was a pellet gun. (Cincinnati.com, Cincinnati, Ohio, 11/21/15, WCPO, Cincinnati, Ohio, 11/20/15)

A group of four people attempted to break into a home in San Antonio, Texas by removing an air conditioning unit from a window and crawling inside. The homeowner responded to the break-in by retrieving a gun and firing at the intruders, striking and killing one, and causing the others to flee. A knife and a bag, containing a gun and burglary tools, was found next to the body of the deceased intruder.

Police captured the three intruders who fled the gunfire a short distance from the home. (KSAT, San Antonio, Texas 11/15/15)



A homeowner was in their house in Anchorage, Alaska when they heard a knock at the door. The homeowner retrieved a gun and went to answer the door. Upon opening the door, an intruder pepper-sprayed the homeowner, prompting the homeowner to fire at the criminal. The attacker fled the scene. (KTVA, Anchorage, Alaska 11/13/15)

88-year-old Arlene Orms was at home alone in Miami, Fla. when an intruder kicked in her door. Orms responded by retrieving a .25-caliber pistol and firing at the home invader, prompting the criminal to flee.

Following the incident, Orms’ neighbors expressed support for her actions, with one telling a local media outlet, “You have to do something… You have to protect yourself.” (WSVN, Miami, Fla. 11/11/15)

Three masked robbers entered Long Jewelers in Winston-Salem, N.C., drew guns, and began smashing display cases and collecting jewelry. A worker in the back of the store became aware of the robbery and retrieved a firearm. The worker came to the front of the store and then fired at one of the thieves, striking and killing him. The other two robbers fled the scene.

Forsyth County District Attorney Jim O’Neill has made clear that the worker will not face charges. (The Winston-Salem Journal, Winston-Salem, N.C. 11/3/15)

A trio of men, at least one of whom was armed with a gun, entered Latino’s Meat Market in Reading, Pa. and attempted to rob the store. The two employees on duty responded to the threat by retrieving guns and firing at the robbers, striking two, and causing the other to flee. The two criminals that were struck died. After a preliminary investigation, Reading police stated that the employees appear to have acted in self-defense. (WFMZ, Allentown, Pa. 11/01/15)

An elderly couple were at home Halloween night, when the doorbell rang. Prepared to hand out candy to trick-or-treaters, the wife opened the door to find four armed robbers, at least two of whom were armed with guns.

The robbers forced their way inside the home, where the husband was sitting in a recliner. Upon learning of the home invasion, the husband retrieved a gun and fired at the criminals, prompting the home invaders to flee. (Helena-Arkansas.com, Helena, Ark. 11/01/15)
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 6, 2015 - 08:16am PT
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2015 - 08:16am PT
AUG. 5, 2012
Wade M. Page, 40, killed six people with a Springfield Armory semiautomatic handgun when he opened fire in the lobby of a Sikh temple in Oak Creek, Wis., as congregants arrived for Sunday services.

1994
While in the Army at Fort Bliss in El Paso, Tex., Mr. Page was charged with criminal mischief after kicking holes in the wall of a bar. He pleaded guilty.

EARLY 2000S
He came to the attention of authorities because of his affiliation with a white-power band called End Apathy, which performed songs with violent lyrics.

JULY 2012
He bought the firearm legally at a gun shop outside Milwaukee. He passed a background check and paid $650 in cash.

AUG. 5, 2012
He killed six people and wounded three others at the temple.
Fish Finder

climber
Dec 6, 2015 - 08:20am PT
philo polease ^^^^^^^

that is your weekest argument yet


the guy kicked holes in the wall at a bar and sang songs with evil lyrics?

how the hell does that profile him as a Killer

edit: or send up any warning signals , so that he cant buy a gun in our country

philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2015 - 08:21am PT
MARCH 2012**
Over four months, Mr. Holmes legally bought more than 3,000 rounds of ammunition for handguns, 3,000 rounds for a semiautomatic rifle and 350 shells for a 12-gauge shotgun, all over the Internet.
**
MAY 2012
He was seeing a psychiatrist and in the process of withdrawing from a graduate program at the University of Colorado Denver’s Anschutz Medical Campus.

MAY 2012
In the 60 days before the shooting, he bought four guns legally at local gun shops. Seeing a psychiatrist, even for a serious mental illness, would not disqualify him from buying a gun.

JULY 20, 2012
He opened fire in the theater, killing 12 people.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 6, 2015 - 08:23am PT



HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 6, 2015 - 08:25am PT
madbolter posted
And what's your account of the suicide rate in (as we recently saw poignantly played out) ENTIRELY gun-free France, which beats our suicide rate?

I forgot to mention that France also has a homicide rate that is 1/5th of what the United States' is.


Chief: Why would we make a big deal about a literally everyday event in America? We've already decided as a country that this is life as usual.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2015 - 08:26am PT
APRIL 2, 2012
One L. Goh, 43, opened fire with a semiautomatic handgun at a small religious college in Oakland, Calif., where he had been a student. He killed seven people.

BEFORE SHOOTING
“He was a loner and what some might call a loser, but he didn't exhibit any behaviors that would have alerted anyone,” a district attorney told reporters after the shooting, according to CNN.

EARLY 2012
Mr. Goh legally bought the handgun at a gun store in Castro Valley, Calif., passing a federal background check.APRIL 2, 2012
One L. Goh, 43, opened fire with a semiautomatic handgun at a small religious college in Oakland, Calif., where he had been a student. He killed seven people.

BEFORE SHOOTING
“He was a loner and what some might call a loser, but he didn't exhibit any behaviors that would have alerted anyone,” a district attorney told reporters after the shooting, according to CNN.

EARLY 2012
Mr. Goh legally bought the handgun at a gun store in Castro Valley, Calif., passing a federal background check.

APRIL 2, 2012
He killed seven people at Oikos University in Oakland.

JAN. 2013
A judge ruled he was not fit for trial after two psychiatric evaluations concluded that he had paranoid schizophrenia.

APRIL 2, 2012
He killed seven people at Oikos University in Oakland.

JAN. 2013
A judge ruled he was not fit for trial after two psychiatric evaluations concluded that he had paranoid schizophrenia.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 6, 2015 - 08:27am PT
^^^^^ ALL the weapons and bombs used in the FRANCE ATTACKED were BANNED and totally ILLEGAL to obtain and possess!





82% of Gangland Shootings, over 18,000, in the past 20 years, were done with NO BACKGROUND Checks all because the guns utilized were ILLEGALLY ACQUIRED!!
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 6, 2015 - 08:29am PT
First of all, Chief, post a citation if you want us to take that seriously. Secondly, it's easy to illegally acquire a gun in a country where it's easy to legally acquire a gun.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2015 - 08:32am PT
^^^+1000


JAN. 8, 2011
Jared L. Loughner, 22, killed six people with a Glock handgun in a supermarket parking lot in Tucson, Ariz., at an event for Gabrielle Giffords, who was a Democratic representative from Arizona.

2007
Mr. Loughner was arrested for possession of drug paraphernalia, but the charges were dropped. The next year, he failed a drug test when trying to enlist in the Army. Neither incident barred him from buying a gun.

OCT. 2010
He was forced to withdraw from community college because of campus officials’ fears about the safety of the staff and students, his parents later said. The incident would not have shown up on a background check.

NOV. 30, 2010
He passed a background check and bought the handgun at a store in Tucson, Ariz.

JAN. 8, 2011
He killed six people in Tucson.
raymond phule

climber
Dec 6, 2015 - 08:50am PT
I believe that it possibly to get a gun in all countries but that it is easier to go to a store and buy one if that is allowed in your country or to get one illegally if a lot of people own guns legally.

I am sure that this make sense for most people outside USA and for most non gun nuts in USA.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 6, 2015 - 08:51am PT
Time to ban exacto knives.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-hollywood/2015/12/05/woman-stabbed-at-art-basel-as-witnesses-believe-attack-is-performance-art-routine/
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2015 - 08:52am PT
^^^ Got false equivalency syndrome TeaGEE Tea?



Jiverly Wong, 41, fired at least 98 shots from two handguns, a Beretta 92 FS 9-millimeter pistol and a Beretta PX4 Storm pistol, inside a civic association in Binghamton, N.Y., where he had taken an English class. He killed 13 former classmates and association employees.

BEFORE THE SHOOTING
Mr. Wong had been arrested, cited or had some minor contact with the police at least five times since 1990, but details about the cases remain unclear. At the time of the shootings, he was not a subject in any investigation, nor did he have a documented mental health issue.

MARCH 2008
Mr. Wong bought the first gun, the Beretta 92, at a store in Johnson City, N.Y. He passed a background check.

M ARCH 2009
Mr. Wong bought the second gun from the same store, but his background check was not approved immediately. He received the gun under a federal rule that allows a gun to be sold if the background check system does not return a decision in three business days.

APRIL 3, 2009
He killed 13 people in Binghamton.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2015 - 09:01am PT
Gunz iz secksie








































jonnyrig

climber
Dec 6, 2015 - 09:05am PT
Seriously, stop with the selfies, ok?
jonnyrig

climber
Dec 6, 2015 - 09:11am PT
How many people died from guns in the US last year? What's the average annual number for the US over the last few years? Total number? Overall? Murders and suicides? Just murders?
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 6, 2015 - 09:25am PT
Face the facts; homo sapiens are a violent species.

Guns are not the problem, just a symptom.

If guns aren't available other weapons are used. How many vehicular mass homicides occur annually.

How many victims are stabbed or hacked to death on an annual basis. If you add in the squabble between Hutu's and Tutsi's in Rwanda and Congo (a million by some accounts) you get an annualized number probably exceeding gun murders.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 6, 2015 - 09:36am PT

If guns aren't available other weapons are used. How many vehicular mass homicides occur annually.

There are some decent arguments that some have made against imposing additional restrictions on gun ownership.

But the "people will always find some way to kill each other" argument is perhaps the most dishonest.
jonnyrig

climber
Dec 6, 2015 - 09:37am PT
33,000 deaths by firearm total.
12,000 by homicide, the rest suicide.
300,000,000 guns in the US.

For a rate of:
12,000/300,000,000= 0.00004

That's 0.004% of all us guns, annually, that kill somebody, by murder.
Roughly doubled for suicides, that's 0.008%.

For comparison, there are rougly 250,000,000 motor vehicles.
30,000 deaths (accidents, naturally) annually for a rate of:
30,000/250,000,000= 0.012%

Considering that licensing, insurance, and multiple safety features are all mandatory in motor vehicles, it would appear that firearms are safer.
WBraun

climber
Dec 6, 2015 - 09:38am PT
Another active nutcase thread in progress .....
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2015 - 09:48am PT
Yea sure Werner let's just sit like the three monkeys and not see, hear or speak. Not say anything about gun violence, environmental degradation, government corruption, the collapse of the honey bee population or any other significant issues facing us all. Let's just say phucket and let the world go.great! What could possibly go wrong. To quote Sgt Schultz, " I hear nothing, I see nothing". You are a stupid American.
So what are the Kardashians and thw Bieber up to anyway? Uninquiring minds want to know.
jonnyrig

climber
Dec 6, 2015 - 09:54am PT
Gee, and I thought you liked it when people backed things up with numbers. You are more likely to die in your car on your way to the crag, than at the hands of an armed aggressor. 3x more likely.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Dec 6, 2015 - 09:54am PT
Periwinkle pussy cat...! yeah baby...!
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2015 - 10:15am PT
Here jrig are some real numbers to counter your absurd assertion.

America's Top Killing Machine
Gun deaths are poised to surpass automobile deaths in the United States this year.


Ken/Flickr
http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/01/americas-top-killing-machine/384440/#
ADRIENNE LAFRANCE
JAN 12, 2015 TECHNOLOGY
For the better part of a century, the machine most likely to kill an American has been the automobile.

Car crashes killed 33,561 people in 2012, the most recent year for which data is available, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. Firearms killed 32,251 people in the United States in 2011, the most recent year for which the Centers for Disease Control has data.

But this year gun deaths are expected to surpass car deaths. That's according to a Center for American Progress report, which cites CDC data that shows guns will kill more Americans under 25 than cars in 2015. Already more than a quarter of the teenagers—15 years old and up—who die of injuries in the United States are killed in gun-related incidents, according to the American Academy of Pediatrics.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Dec 6, 2015 - 10:17am PT
See...Life can be fun when you're a stupid American drooling on a hot dog...Bring me the Judge..
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 6, 2015 - 10:18am PT
Dishonest Dirtbag? Exactly when did reality become dishonest. Jonny has provided the stats, Chief separated the suicides from the homocides, TGT provided recent testimonials of criminal homocides prevented by law abiding gun owners.

And what have you guys got but electronic lips endlessly repeating programmed progressive talking points. Look at phillos leftist laundry list above as a perfect example.

Be honest, you've been brainwashed into a vision of utopia that identifies all who oppose these implanted ideas as your number 1 right wing enemies.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2015 - 10:20am PT
"Leftist laundry list"?
WTF?? Are you brain dead or just ignorant?

Your circle jerk bois didn't post up facts just lies and false conjectures.
jonnyrig

climber
Dec 6, 2015 - 10:22am PT
Absurd? Yeah, ok. If you dont want to commit suicide with a gun, dont buy one. The next most succesful way to off yourself is by asphyxiation. So, you know, burn your rope. It would be as effective as removing guns, cause thats all we need to do to prevent suicide- remove the tool. Thats the gist of your argument. Absurd? Maybe. By the numbers? You betcha.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2015 - 10:28am PT
That's not the"gist" of my argument that is your predetermined bias.

jonnyrig

climber
Dec 6, 2015 - 10:34am PT
Oh sorry, i suppose i was ignoring your "gun owners are knuckle-dragging morans" gripe. Theres nothing predetermined about it. Just browsing what you write. If thats not your gist, perhaps you should change your rhetoric to more accurately represent your opinion.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 6, 2015 - 10:40am PT
Braindead, ah no. I'm what your programming has determined for you as a right winger. You are owned by a political movement that if fully implemented will grind you, your family and your friends up and spit you out the side. Environmental degradation, honey bees, guns, differing thoughts ;all twisted and wrung free of facts then inserted into the few brain cells still functioning inside your thick skull.


philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2015 - 10:51am PT
I don't believe I've ever specifically said " gun owners are knuckle draggers". I have often referred to a sub set of conservatives as mouth breathing knuckle draggers. Now if you chose to self associate or feel a guilt by association then that is on you.
jonnyrig

climber
Dec 6, 2015 - 10:55am PT
Uh, no. Im just generalizing. Im sure you,re familiar with that. Your posts are just so singular and redundant i thought i,d offer up a slightly different point of view, you know, for the hell of it. Mix it up a little. Anyway, things to see, people to do, guns to shoot. Have a nice day.
RyanD

climber
Dec 6, 2015 - 10:56am PT
https://www.corbettreport.com/medicated-to-death-ssris-and-mass-killings/
dirtbag

climber
Dec 6, 2015 - 11:06am PT
Dishonest Dirtbag? Exactly when did reality become dishonest. Jonny has provided the stats, Chief separated the suicides from the homocides, TGT provided recent testimonials of criminal homocides prevented by law abiding gun owners.

Yes.


Sure, vehicles are used to kill people.



But how many vehicle deaths are violent, i.e., occurring as a result of someone intentionally setting out to kill someone else, and not accidental? Maybe 500 or 1000/year?

Guns are one of the most efficient ways to kill people. To say that someone could use another device to kill another human, while true, glosses over the fact that more efficient killing devices will have a larger impact.



philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2015 - 11:15am PT
TeaGEETea is making that point about Xacto knives.


[quote]TGT

Social climber
So Cal

Dec 6, 2015 - 08:51am PT
Time to ban exacto knives.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-hollywood/2015/12/05/woman-stabbed-at-art-basel-as-witnesses-believe-attack-is-performance-art-routine/[/quote]


You can kill some one with a carrot too but it's just a little bit harder to slaughter a room full.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 6, 2015 - 11:29am PT
"But how many vehicle deaths are violent, i.e., occurring as a result of someone intentionally setting out to kill someone else, and not accidental? Maybe 500 or 1000/year?"


Almost every single person killed by a car is killed completely by accident. Despite the best of efforts, the killer cars were totally out of control. As far as machines go, that makes the car far more dangerous than a gun.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2015 - 11:33am PT
Wrong again ChazMo.


Here jrig are some real numbers to counter your absurd assertion.

America's Top Killing Machine
Gun deaths are poised to surpass automobile deaths in the United States this year.


Ken/Flickr
http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/01/americas-top-killing-machine/384440/#
ADRIENNE LAFRANCE
JAN 12, 2015 TECHNOLOGY
For the better part of a century, the machine most likely to kill an American has been the automobile.

Car crashes killed 33,561 people in 2012, the most recent year for which data is available, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. Firearms killed 32,251 people in the United States in 2011, the most recent year for which the Centers for Disease Control has data.

But this year gun deaths are expected to surpass car deaths. That's according to a Center for American Progress report, which cites CDC data that shows guns will kill more Americans under 25 than cars in 2015. Already more than a quarter of the teenagers—15 years old and up—who die of injuries in the United States are killed in gun-related incidents, according to the American Academy of Pediatrics.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 6, 2015 - 11:51am PT
Just by not blowing your own brains out you can cut your odds of being killed by a gun by 2/3. If you're not black, cut those odds in half again.

Then if you don't do drugs and you stay out of rotten neighborhoods your odds of being killed by a gun drop to practically nothing.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2015 - 11:53am PT
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Dec 6, 2015 - 12:04pm PT
Who's wrong and who's right in any disagreement probably depends a lot more on the pre-existing beliefs that we have coming in to the conversation than on the facts we bring. To say that cars are more dangerous killing machines because they, as machines, result in more unintentional deaths than guns do because most gun deaths are a result of human intentions towards violence is maybe more true than our pre-existing beliefs like to admit. Needing to balance the intended use and social good of each machine sometimes is more work than we like to do :-)
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 6, 2015 - 12:15pm PT
Then if you don't do drugs and you stay out of rotten neighborhoods your odds of being killed by a gun drop to practically nothing.



you've never been to Roseburg or reynolds high in Troutdale or Springfield Oregon, have you?

The folks at Clackamas town center in the Macy's and chipotle weren't in a bad neighborhood or on drugs. The shooter stole an unsecured AR15 from his friends house.


Dont write asinine stuff like that if you want to be taken seriously.
raymond phule

climber
Dec 6, 2015 - 12:17pm PT
It is interesting to see how people think about risk and how different the interpretations are depending on their agenda.

It is an extremely small risk that you get killed in a terrorist attack.
The risk to you due to Syrian refugees is even smaller.
The risk to get killed by a gun is also small but probably larger than the once above for ordinary people.
The risk to die in a car accident is also pretty small but also depends on how and when you drive.

So why is it that some people get really scared for some extremely small risk events but at the same time try to downplay other small risks?

Accidental shootings, mass shooting and terrorism probably get way to much attention if looked at statistically, we probably should just ignore them and try to fix things that really can make a difference, but it really isn't that strange that most people don't like them and care a lot about them.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 6, 2015 - 12:22pm PT
because most gun deaths are a result of human intentions towards violence

A few million guns didn't kill anyone today.

It's about time to return the focus to the intent, and the perps.

Farook and his jihadi bride had a full on bomb factory going in the garage.

One could argue that they would have been far more lethal if they had no access to firearms and had instead focused their efforts on perfecting their bomb making skills. (evidently they weren't very good at it)

One woman intended to kill the other with an exacto knife at an art show. A Jihadi in England used a machete yesterday in the subway. Knife attacks seem to be a daily occurrence in Israel these days and are almost always unsuccessful and ended by a citizen armed with a firearm.

A Saudi gang of jihadis killed thousands in one day with little more than box cutters and intent.

Since Philo's sympathies lie with some of the perps causes, where's he going to focus without causing the pangs of cognitive dissonance?

On the implements, not the religion and political motivations of the attackers.


Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 6, 2015 - 12:23pm PT
"you've never been to Roseburg or Troutdale or Springfield Oregon, have you?"


Of the 32,000 killed by guns every year, that represents what? A tiny fraction?

Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 6, 2015 - 12:41pm PT
Almost every single person killed by a car is killed completely by accident. Despite the best of efforts, the killer cars were totally out of control. As far as machines go, that makes the car far more dangerous than a gun.

No.

A bit over 31,000 road deaths occurred in 2013

, 23% of all accidents involved cell phone use. 3,154 people died, or about 10% of the deaths that year. Driver under 20 were about a quarter of that. 20% of teens and 10% of parents admit to texting at least once every time they drive.

In 2013, over 10,000 deaths were caused by impaired drivers. That was 31% of the deaths that year. An impaired driver causes a death every 51 minutes.


Speeding Rounded out the top three, with over 9,000 deaths in 2013


So at least 71% of road deaths were attributable to some crime or misdemeanor while driving.

Complete accidents is a myth.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2015 - 12:42pm PT

Since Philo's sympathies lie with some of the perps causes, where's he going to focus without causing the pangs of cognitive dissonance?

On the implements, not the religion and political motivations of the attackers.

To intimate such a thing demonstrates your ignorance and your assness.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 6, 2015 - 12:47pm PT
Yeah, but relatively few use a car when they want to kill someone, or would likely use a car to kill someone in the absence of guns.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2015 - 12:52pm PT
Yeah they would surely use an Xacto blade or a carrot.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2015 - 01:30pm PT
See I told you.
Time to ban Salad Bars.
little Z

Trad climber
un cafetal en Naranjo
Dec 6, 2015 - 01:33pm PT
Locker, dude, you're on a roll
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Dec 6, 2015 - 01:46pm PT
i get that philo is mentally ill but do none of the rest of you ever tired of typing the same sh#t over and over and over and over
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2015 - 02:13pm PT
You can say that again again.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 6, 2015 - 02:15pm PT
Pretty fortunate there weren't 3 dead teens here:

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2015/12/masked_men_fake_guns_and_real.html
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Dec 6, 2015 - 02:19pm PT
Read it again...I said philo was probably the only one with somewhat of an excuse
dirtbag

climber
Dec 6, 2015 - 02:24pm PT
Carrots-lol!
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2015 - 02:25pm PT
What you said was

i get that philo is mentally ill but do none of the rest of you ever tired of typing the same sh#t over and over and over and over

Pretty clear Locker made the right call Mr Cyber PsychoANALyst.
Do you suffer from P.D.S.?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 6, 2015 - 05:53pm PT
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-uber-driver-shoots-gunman-met-0420-20150419-story.html

of course UBER will fire him for saving numerous lives.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2015 - 05:59pm PT
Well be sure to get back to us about that.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 05:17am PT
TGT posted
A few million guns didn't kill anyone today.

Come on, guys. Why can't we focus on the guns that AREN'T killing people? 1.5 billion Muslims didn't kill anyone today and TGT would never allege that we should see them as a threat, right? Be reasonable!


TGT posted
List of unsourced headlines about armed homed defense from November

According to the gun violence archive there is roughly one accidental shooting for each defensive use.

http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/past-tolls

I don't think that anyone is arguing that "no good" comes of gun ownership, it's that on net the societal harm far outstrips the good with out current regime.

Why is it that I have yet to see a single person on the "defense" side of this thread state even a simple acknowledgement that what we're doing isn't working? All I see is attempts to undermine the validity of the claims of harm, attacks on the character of the people calling for change and Orwellian claims of "people control" and other nuttiness. I can understand people voicing opposition to a proposal such as "outlaw all gun ownership under any conditions" because this would be a radical change, but how can you look at 12,000 gun deaths, 23,000 gun injuries, 24,000 suicides 1,600 accidental shootings and 300 mass shootings and think, "yeah, that seems about right?"
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 7, 2015 - 06:17am PT
Because the focus should be on the behavior and it's causes, not the tool. So your premise is a false one.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Dec 7, 2015 - 06:20am PT
Sorry, there is a reason they are known as gun nuts. Trying to talk reason with them is impossible.
What we are seeing in the US is the result of letting them have their way, not having the courage to take them on and their corporate sponsors (the massive gun lobby).

Voting Republicans out of office would be a good first step. Here's why:

Republican presidential candidate Sen. Marco Rubio (FL) defended his Thursday vote against denying guns to those on the no-fly list because the federal database "has a significant number of errors."

Rubio suggested on Sunday's episode of "State Of The Union" that the no-fly list is impeding too many law-abiding citizens from purchasing a gun.

"They shouldn't be used as a tool to impede 700,000 Americans or potential Americans -- people on that list from having access to be able to fully utilize their Second Amendment rights," Rubio told CNN's Jake Tapper.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 06:26am PT
fear posted
Because the focus should be on the behavior and it's causes, not the tool. So your premise is a false one.

So you're saying that Americans are just naturally homicidal? And that given our psychopathy our permissive gun laws aren't a problem?
jonnyrig

climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 06:38am PT
There are plenty of people who claim no good comes from gun ownership. There are alsoplenty who advocate total disarmament. There are also plenty who own firearms that recognize a need for change, or at least that changes could be made that would be both effective and not violate rights. If you dont recognize them you should open your eyes a little.
Where we all differ is in our definition of acceptable restriction and our willingness to compromise.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Dec 7, 2015 - 06:42am PT
Very good post, jrig.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 7, 2015 - 07:00am PT
overwatch

climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 07:05am PT
There are alsoplenty who advocate total disarmament.

This won't happen without another Civil War. I agree, good post, JRizzy

I would probably be called a "gun nut" by most of you although I don't worship them like some; it is a tool in the toolbox. I have a flak vest as a seat cover in my car.

I probably have more time behind the trigger in actual training than most here, to the tune of 1000's of hours with one of the original schools in the country. I have carried a gun for a living.

It needs to be much harder to get weapons, penalties for illegal possession increased, as well as for those that provide weapons for others to commit crimes, better mandatory training and actual psychological testing for would be permit holders. I would agree to just about anything short of confiscation

Maybe then "they" will leave our ammo alone?

Edit;
last line tongue in cheek. Another good post DJ
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 07:07am PT
There are plenty of people who claim no good comes from gun ownership. There are alsoplenty who advocate total disarmament. There are also plenty who own firearms that recognize a need for change, or at least that changes could be made that would be both effective and not violate rights. If you dont recognize them you should open your eyes a little.
Where we all differ is in our definition of acceptable restriction and our willingness to compromise.

Where is that conversation taking place? Sure there are random people who may say those things but there are no advocacy groups pushing for those changes. There is no proposed legislation to ban all guns. There are no gun rights groups calling for gun legislation reform or proposing solutions to our problem beyond "open carry for everyone" and "blame the mentally ill."
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 07:24am PT
From God Himself...


.....

fear wrote...

The Christian vs. Muslim meme has been intentionally inflamed again because it works. Divide and conquer...

ISIS is a Western invention. Created, trained, funded and run by parts of our own government with Israel, SA, and likely others lending a hand.

If that ain't just plain crazy what is.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 07:41am PT
Everyone knows this is just Park Service propaganda to draw attention away from them dumping sewage in the rivers and killing all the bears.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 07:51am PT
Brainwashed stoopid fool you are ....

Well, good morning "Dipshit".



"Werner is by several yardsticks the most solid person posting here, though you might need to know him beyond this thread to realize that."

Uh-huh.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 07:55am PT
It looks like states may continue to ban semiautomatic assault weapons. The Supreme Court declines to hear a case on whether such bans are constitutional.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/supreme-court-wont-review-laws-banning-so-called-assault-weapons/2015/12/07/b562678e-96fb-11e5-94f0-9eeaff906ef3_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_assaultweapon-950a%3Ahomepage%2Fstory
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 08:02am PT
Jerry Falwell Jr

Did you all know that there is a Jerry Falwell Junior?

There is.

Here he is speaking at Liberty U a couple days ago on the subject of guns and Muslims...

[Click to View YouTube Video]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHmwD2VElyE



Check out the size of that attendance.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 08:04am PT
HFCS- That speech was almost certainly at the same weekly gathering that Trump and Sanders spoke. Attendance is mandatory. His statement, "we could end those Muslims," obviously is disgusting.
WBraun

climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 08:05am PT
Check out that size of that attendance.


Yep and you are in it by posting that YouTube.

This proves you're an idiot .......
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 08:06am PT
And Werner just commented about it. Now's he's part of the conversation.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 08:08am PT
hddj, it's all pretty depressing. On many levels.

Another: Imagine the number of accredited lawyers and eventually justices that that university unleashes over the years on the 21st century Am culture.

Thanks J Falwell.

It it any wonder our nation is so schizo (split/divided) on these many issues.

We've got to get the Abrahamic God out of the thinking, out of the mindset, out of the problem solving.
overwatch

climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 08:12am PT
Interesting link, DBag.

I would also add to my post above, penalties for people that have guns stolen, or have in home negligent shootings, indicating a lack of responsibility in proper storage and securing of firearms.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Dec 7, 2015 - 08:14am PT
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3203020/Court-hears-man-building-X-ray-gun-kill-Muslims-van-help-Jews-rid-enemies.html
WBraun

climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 08:15am PT
We've got to get the Abrahamic God out of the thinking, out of the mindset, out of the problem solving.


Then quit fuking around HFCS and YOU become god (which you are already unknowingly doing)......
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 08:19am PT
Curious, is this age-onset or have you always been this way?

Serious question.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Dec 7, 2015 - 08:21am PT
Then quit fuking around HFCS

u got owned by the Wbraun!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 08:26am PT
Owned?

So pyro i guess we've got different standards then, eh?

I bet if I pay attn to your posts, it'll become clear.
Perhaps we'll see.
jonnyrig

climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 08:28am PT
Choose what you want to believe.

http://www.google.com/#q=groups+that+want+to+ban+all+guns

http://www.google.com/#q=who+wants+to+ban+all+guns

http://www.google.com/#q=gun+ban+quotes

It is not just "a few random people".
Yes, I am aware of the advocacy groups that are pushing for open carry for everyone. Idiots. Like the groups in California that got open carry banned by exercising their right to do so. Just because it's legal doesn't make it smart.

Any firearms group who advocates for additional restrictions on firearm ownership would be a group that doesn't want to exist any longer. They would lose membership. Like a republican in favor of gun control, or a democrat who would denounce it. That's why you're not hearing it. It's political suicide. The best you can hope for would be reasonable compromise during closed legislative sessions, where the voting public doesn't get to see the developmental process. Then politicians with the guts to vote their conscience. Good f*#king luck with that.

I have lost friends on both sides of the issue simply for no other reason than:
a) I own firearms, and I see no reason to give them up.
b) I am also willing to compromise, thinking that there are ways in which we could improve our society regarding firearms, including some measures that would border on circumventing our constitutional protections.

But hey, I'm just another random as#@&%e spouting my own opinion. So if ya don't like it, f*#k off. Someone else will be along shortly with an opinion that tickles yer warm fuzzies.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 08:28am PT
I would also add to my post above, penalties for people that have guns stolen, or have in home negligent shootings, indicating a lack of responsibility in proper storage and securing of firearms.

This is the kind of thing I think we should be starting with. People/companies should be responsible for their firearm until it's ownership is legally transferred to a new, vetted owner. Produce guns but sell them to sketchy people? You're liable. Sell guns but don't ensure proper background checks and registration? You're liable. Own a gun but don't secure it properly so your kid takes it and shoots up a school or commits suicide? You're liable. Have a gun stolen but don't report it? You're liable. "Responsible gun owner" currently doesn't mean anything.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Dec 7, 2015 - 08:31am PT
Where is that conversation taking place?

Hillary recently praised the guns laws of England and Australia. The message was obvious.

IMO, the biggest obstacle to passing reasonable gun laws is the slippery slope aspect, which is fairly common with liberal issues. A significant portion of the population sees new gun laws as stepping stones to total confiscation. History shows their fears are valid.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Dec 7, 2015 - 08:33am PT
Hillary recently praised the guns laws of England and Australia. The message was obvious.

Obvious? Like what, she wants gun confiscation? Ha! It's a good idea, but she's too much a realist to imagine that would be possible.
monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 7, 2015 - 08:42am PT
A common misconception is that firearms are illegal in Australia and that no individual may possess them. Although it is true that Australia has tough firearms laws, rifles and shotguns (both of which include semi-automatics), as well as handguns, are all legal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Australia
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 08:50am PT
Edward posted
IMO, the biggest obstacle to passing reasonable gun laws is the slippery slope aspect, which is fairly common with liberal issues. A significant portion of the population sees new gun laws as stepping stones to total confiscation. History shows their fears are valid.

Again, implying that the status quo in which thousands of Americans die and twice as many are injured by guns is "better." The first national gun legislation was in the 1930's. More in the 1960's. Legislation in the 90's was targeted mostly at scary looking guns and large magazines. Where is history showing a valid basis for complete gun confiscation? Or for the rounding up of gun owners into camps? It doesn't...

...and even if it did, you're still not proposing any solutions.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Dec 7, 2015 - 09:02am PT
Both Hillary and President Obama have praised UK gun laws.

Again: IMO, the biggest obstacle to passing reasonable gun laws is the slippery slope aspect, which is fairly common with liberal issues.

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 09:06am PT
Do you know what UK gun laws are?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 7, 2015 - 09:12am PT
"Do you know what UK gun laws are?"



Laws?

Or Rights?

Or is there no difference?
monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 7, 2015 - 09:14am PT
And gun proponents have praised Switzerland and Israel as some kind of gun utopia, yet don't really know what their gun laws are.

I'd love for the US to go to Swiss or Israel gun type laws.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 09:15am PT
Chaz: How well regulated is your militia?
Norton

Social climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 09:17am PT
Both Hillary and President Obama have praised UK gun laws.

good for both of them for doing so

why aren't Republicans doing the same? why do you vote for them?

I "praise" any kind of ideas that mitigate mass murder, which is exactly what the UK,
and Australia have done

we ought to be studying and considering everything everywhere

no reasonable person should object to that, or would they? can't see why
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 09:21am PT
Ed- your snarkometer is miscalibrated.
jonnyrig

climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 09:30am PT
There's no militia requirement to own a firearm. Already vetted by the supreme court, so stuff it. Besides, how would you feel about the "average" firearm owner engaging in military type assault training and thus carrying military grade weapons? After all, if you're going to insist upon membership in a military grade militia membership...

Why not mandatory background checks for EVERY sale? You'd need a national registry to give it teeth, and for those who denounce that, you buy any sudafed lately? It can be done, and better than Canada did it. BUT here's the caveat: own any weapon you want that is currently legal to own. No restrictions on ammunition either. After all, you're talking about legal owners who've been approved by the government.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 09:38am PT
Thanks for the civil response, johnny. Classy. My point is that quoting the raw text of the amendment isn't very useful. The right to bear arms IS "infringed" by some people's standards, not by others. Additionally, any "right" that provides little benefit to liberty at the great expense of life, liberty and happiness is well worth reconsideration.
jonnyrig

climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 10:04am PT
It's like any other amendment that's born scrutiny and interpretation over time. Short of amending it again, what we have is what the current interpretations have determined. Thus, we have the individual right to bear arms, with some caveats.
The overall question of gun violence takes in a considerable number of factors that go well beyond a simple interpretation of the clause most quoted, and need to factor in the effects of social trends and problems as well. If you look ONLY at firearm data, you might conclude that yes, guns contribute greatly to a loss of life, just as do automobiles. If you factor in where and how guns take lives, you might conclude that we have a suicide problem in our society (2/3 of all gun deaths), for which anything short of mandatory destruction of all guns in society would have not so much as a drop-in-the-bucket deterrent effect. The other large percentage of firearms that kill people are used in crimes, where either the gun was already an illegal purchase for which the intent was to commit a crime, or an already legally owned firearm where the owner, for whatever reason, decided it was suddenly acceptable to use it in some criminal manner.

So, in terms of legislating away gun deaths, what a lot of the proposed legislation actually stands the greatest chance of reducing would be, arguable, those weapons that fall into the hands of criminals by way of otherwise legal sales in which the seller, sance background check, unwittingly or knowingly transfers a firearm to someone intent on committing a crime. The other type of legislation proposed that would require such things as safe storage would have the greatest chance of reducing stolen firearms that find their way into criminal hands, and firearms involved in accidental deaths, such as when jr. gets hold of dads firearm and shoots himself or someone else, which are terribly tragic events.

As to legislation aimed at reducing the number of high-capacity semi-automatic weapons in use during the current trend of mass murders, I don't see much that's truly going to be effective, short of banning all semi-automatic arms with detachable magazines. There, you're talking not just about the "black rifles" in common use, but also many of the firearms typical of sporting and self-defense, as well as recreational shooting. This is where I depart from much of the so-called reasonable argument in favor of stricter gun control. Mainly because I view ANY weapon as being capable of taking human life, and especially because just about anyone can become proficient in reloading firearms considered in many eyes to be traditional hunting weapons which are specifically designed to be high-powered, easily reloadable, and efficient killing machines. To hunt with less would be irresponsible. Therefore, I've personally come to the conclusion that such types of weapon bans would be needlessly (and ineffectively) restrictive; but that's just my personal opinion.

What I'm really hoping is two-fold:
1. we'll get smarter about what would and wouldn't be effective in reducing gun violence, without being overly restrictive
2. we'll get smart about addressing the mental issues that contribute to violence and suicide, both of which contribute to whether or not someone turns to firearms to push their agenda, like it or not.

The one thing that really does concern me, as I've stated earlier, is that terrorism will take notice of just how vulnerable we are as a society, and just how easily they affect us in such a manner as to produce within the fabric of our society a willingness to give up our freedoms for a false sense of security. Ultimately, all they have to do, really, is turn us against ourselves. The gun debate is becoming so divisive that it is beginning to do just that, along with all the other far left/right political bullshit that we are continually using to drive a bigger wedge between us all.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 7, 2015 - 10:06am PT
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Dec 7, 2015 - 11:02am PT
As to legislation aimed at reducing the number of high-capacity semi-automatic weapons in use during the current trend of mass murders, I don't see much that's truly going to be effective, short of banning all semi-automatic arms with detachable magazines.


Not gonna happen, but that wouldn't be the craziest thing in the world. Good ol .357 revolver, pump action shotguns, etc. are just fine for self defense, but probably lot harder to do mass shootings with anything but semi-autos.

Oh and another stupid post from Philo:---if a woman is of an age that parental notification would have anything to do with an abortion, then a man (or woman) of that age could not buy gun under any circumstances (at least I think that's right).
Now that the falsity of Philo's message has been demonstrated, let's see if he takes it down.
overwatch

climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 11:11am PT
There really seems to be no compromise possible with him. He is the quintessential "gun control nut".(At the risk of invoking his uncompromising wrath)
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 7, 2015 - 11:51am PT
You have no sense of humor blah blah.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Dec 7, 2015 - 11:53am PT
I laugh every time you post it.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired Climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 12:02pm PT
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/12/07/nra-furious-as-supreme-court-upholds-common-sense-ban-on-assault-weapons/
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Dec 7, 2015 - 12:07pm PT
Just bought a Sig 9mil over the weekend.

but not because of San Bernadino, or anything else current.

I grew up shooting small bore, and around guns. Also, I live in a sketchy area of town.

The fact that it is so easy to obtain a gun of significant power is disturbing. It is also unnerving that the 2nd Ammendment is a catch 22 so we are supplying the terrorists, now some of which are apparently neighbors next door, can have easy access.

I don't see any 'solution' to the situation. In the UK and AU, the gun laws were ramped up 20 or so years ago before the streets were flooded with guns.

There are so many guns now, whether in the hands of everyday people or criminals, or now terrorists, that it really is impossible to get it to a point that they can be regulated in a sane way, such as in civilized counties.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 12:35pm PT
It will require a cultural shift. Currently the NRA is working as hard as it can to make gun culture American culture. They want every American open carrying at all times and making that a badge of honor and thus identity. Our dear friends here on the Taco show very clearly what happens when someone wraps their identity around gun ownership. It's really no different than branding cigarettes or cars though arguably gun enthusiasts take it to totem fetish levels. Make a cultural shift away from that, create robust buyback programs and you're well on your way.
jonnyrig

climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 12:42pm PT
Buy-back programs would have a chance of removing a significant number of guns if they were evaluated and paid current market value. Otherwise, might as well shoot yourself in the foot.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 12:52pm PT
Not if you were phasing in caliber/firing rate restrictions that would eventually make those guns illegal. Australia did a buy back and managed to get something like 20% of the weapons out of private ownership.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Dec 7, 2015 - 01:43pm PT
[quote]http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/12/07/nra-furious-as-supreme-court-upholds-common-sense-ban-on-assault-weapons/[/quote]

Very misleading URL and headline.
While a SCOTUS denial of cert does mean that the lower court decision stands, a denial of cert is not "upholding" the law in the sense that the Court is saying that the law is constitutional, or is even tacitly endorsing the lower court decision. A denial of cert has no precedential value.
The Court hears a very low percentage of cases, and often waits for a "circuit split" (different lower courts deciding similar cases differently) before granting cert.
Whether the Court will ultimately sanction these sorts of restrictions is very much an open question.
jonnyrig

climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 01:44pm PT
No teeth without mandatory background checks and a registration requirement. Otherwise, guns go to the highest bidder. What's it worth to you to get them off the street?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 7, 2015 - 03:00pm PT
What's it worth to you to get them off the street?

Absolutely nothing in terms of a buyback.

Why should my tax dollars go toward buying something "back" that I will never own? Why should my tax dollars go toward solving a "too many guns" program, when I (and tens of millions of others) simply do not agree that "too many guns" IS "the problem"?

Philo's graphic, while patently ridiculous on countless levels, DOES open the door to a consistent discussion that I'm sure he'd wish never got started: Controlling abortion.

Look, you lefties want to control ALL guns, which in terms of total deaths (particularly of the kiddies you so wring your hands about) have a negligible effect on total preventable death in this country (including of the kiddies).

Meanwhile, you DEMAND that abortion remain a convenience, on-demand procedure that MANY tens of millions in this nation equates with flat-out murder... of KIDDIES no less.

Like you, I don't agree that it is murder, but that's not the point! The point is that they have good reasons to believe as they do, just as YOU think that you have good reason to believe as you do that "too many guns" is a BIG part of the "gun violence problem" that you SAY exists in this nation.

So, you'll move Heaven and Earth to "stop the carnage," making EVERY frothy appeal to "moral outrage" that the religious-right makes regarding abortion.

The difference? Guns kill a few hundred kids per year, while abortion "murders" over a million babies every year.

If you want to found a "moral outrage" case, it seems the the anti-abortion folks have it all over you by orders of magnitude!

And most of YOU would not want restrictions on abortion at all, even though most are convenience cases! (The vast majority are not motivated by rape or the life of the mother.)

See, the problem YOU face is that your expressions of moral outrage and your commitment to "liberty" are both will-of-the-whim affairs rather than consistent, principled positions.

So, yeah, philo, beat us over the head with your UTTERLY STUPID graphics, but just realize that you've yet again revealed what a shallow "thinker" you really are. AND you've provided the foil that "the right" will always use against you, because you're not even minimally consistent in your outrage.

The mere fact that you don't agree with the anti-abortion folks is MEANINGLESS, as they even more strongly don't agree with you. The point is that you want CONTROL over a whole pile of causality you can't even empirically demonstrate. The religious right, by contrast, CAN empirically demonstrate a DIRECT causal linkage between abortions and the deaths of almost countless human beings.

YOU wiggle all around to justify these killings (you are definitely supporting the KILLING of something), even for mere convenience. But you'll fall all over yourselves to bag on tens of millions of law-abiding citizens who will NEVER be ANY threat to you in the slightest... and that over a TINY fraction of the killings.

So, before you get all worked up over about 6k actual murders that you THINK you MIGHT prevent by this or that law, why not take seriously the concerns that tens of millions of your fellow citizens have about abortion-on-demand?
dirtbag

climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 03:06pm PT
Why should my tax dollars go toward buying something "back" that I will never own? Why should my tax dollars go toward solving a "too many guns" program, when I (and tens of millions of others) simply do not agree that "too many guns" IS "the problem"?

Too bad.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 7, 2015 - 03:15pm PT
you lefties want to control ALL guns

Utter Bullshit!
Got a link for that load of fertilizer?



The difference? Guns kill a few hundred kids per year,

You really need to do a fact check.

while abortion murders over a million babies every year
Like you, I don't agree that it is murder
,

Which is it?
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 7, 2015 - 03:31pm PT
patrick compton

Trad climber
van

Dec 7, 2015 - 12:07pm PT
Just bought a Sig 9mil over the weekend.


I grew up shooting small bore, and around guns. Also, I live in a sketchy area of town.

Fear mongering brainwashed gun freak.

LOL!

PS: What model btw?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 7, 2015 - 03:48pm PT
Which is it?

Poor philo is so uncharitable in his "thinking" and "reading" that he cannot determine context paragraph-by-paragraph.

The point is that I don't know what it is, and neither do you. The point is that tens of millions THINK they know, just as YOU insist that you know that we've "gotta do something," where that "something" has no demonstrable causal connection to the thing you're trying to fix.
jonnyrig

climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 04:18pm PT
Nothing? Absolutely nothing? Bullsh#t.

A non-mandatory buy-back program that paid fair market price wouldn't affect you any more than your neighbor getting an abortion and I see no reason that both couldn't be offered. Other than, well, you object to YOUR tax dollars being spent toward a program you see as unnecessary. Well, I got news for you: there's a lot of "unnecessary" programs out there for a bunch of us. Just depends what walk of life you come from. If your gripe about a buy-back program is that it needlessly spends millions of dollars to buy back useless, defunct weapons, or that it doesn't pay enough to entice the kind of weapons that are desirable among the criminal buyers, well, that's where the "fair market value" part of it comes into being. Other than that you've got your panties in a wad over your precious tax dollars being spent, what could possibly be wrong with it? Ineffective you say? To what extent? We live with the cost of the current NICS system, which arguable does not stop all sales, specifically illegal sales. However, it does actually stop legal sales to prohibited persons in a significant number of attempts. So... YOU come up with something better.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 7, 2015 - 04:32pm PT
Other than that you've got your panties in a wad over your precious tax dollars being spent, what could possibly be wrong with it? Ineffective you say? To what extent? We live with the cost of the current NICS system, which arguable does not stop all sales, specifically illegal sales. However, it does actually stop legal sales to prohibited persons in a significant number of attempts. So... YOU come up with something better.

Easy!

Put the same money into gun-education programs, research into the causes of the wide array of different sorts of incidents that the media spins into a "national crisis" (that isn't!), and outfitting schools with passive systems like these:

http://www.wthr.com/story/29980040/shelbyville-high-school-tests-state-of-the-art-security-measures

Let's get SERIOUS about addressing the on-school security measures.

Also, let's follow the big-corp money trail. WHY do radicalized Muslims hate us in the first place? In a nutshell: because we're IN their countries and supporting Israel?

WHY are we IN their countries and supporting Israel?

That's more complicated, but in a nutshell: OIL!

Let's get SERIOUS about ENDING (not reducing, but ENDING) dependence on ALL foreign oil. Let's get SERIOUS about an infrastructure overall (and quit being pessimistic about how long it would take) to eliminate the need of Mideast oil.

You want to put a stake through the heart of radical Islam? Cut off the flow of petro-dollars to the whole region.

Oh, but dat hurt da precious wittle oil companies a lot. So dey cry and cry to Congress and keep us under da wittle thumbs?

YOUR choice.

Don't go after American, law-abiding citizens because you don't have the WILL to go after the actual causes of the incidents (Mideast terrorism and inner-city violence).
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Dec 7, 2015 - 04:44pm PT
How to get law abiding gun owners to turn in weapons that have no compelling civilian purpose?

Declare any rifle greater than .22 cal, with a detachable magazine capable of holding more than five rounds to be a weapon of war, and possession of such a weapon outside of one's primary residence will be considered an overt act of war against the people and government of the United States.

The constitution provides a remedy for treason.

More than willing to offer exceptions for registered, vetted individuals similar to that which exists for full-auto weapons today, but with the addition of regular psychological assessment. Absolute prohibition for any person taking any legal or illegal psychoactive drugs, or any diagnosis of mental illness in the preceding five years.

TE
jonnyrig

climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 04:50pm PT
M.B.- well, thats a nice start. It does not, would not address all the causes of violence and/or suicide by gun. I agree with much of what you said there, just not that it would stem the tide, so to speak.

Face it bro, either you start figuring out some options for the least restrictive measures that have a chance at reducing incidents, or just pony up and admit that you yourself have fallen victim to the stupid "us vs them" mentality that grips our forlorn nation. "you libbyp" all but openly proclaims it right there.

Theres a damn good chance that some control is coming, like it or not. Now choose- viable, least restrictive solution, or stick your head in the sand and practice mumbling the phrase "I dont understand..." like the majority of victims who thought vigilance and awareness was sufficient?

T.E.- Good luck with that. Eyeroll.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 7, 2015 - 05:10pm PT
So the answer is mo' guns and turn schools into bullet-proof, fob-driven, high-alert lockdowns. Got it. Let sanity prevail.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Dec 7, 2015 - 05:16pm PT
How to get law abiding gun owners to turn in weapons that have no compelling civilian purpose?

Declare any rifle greater than .22 cal, . . .

OK time for a little civics lesson. They used to teach this stuff in school, but maybe now that's changed and civics had been replaced with "multiculturalism" or something.
The government cannot (validly) simply "declare" something contrary to the Constitution and go with that.
The Constitution is the "Supreme Law of the Land."
Whatever "declaration" that the above poster had in mind is contrary to the Constitution and would have no valid legal effect.
Sorry libs but your only choices are a constitutional amendment (not gonna happen) or, more realistically, voting fore more lib presidents who will continue to pack the court with liberal hacks who may well decide to "interpret" the 2nd Amendment in such a way as to render it a "dead letter."
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 7, 2015 - 05:29pm PT
The perps used a 22 cal weapon.

Granted, not rimfire.

22 cal rimfire is the caliber of choice for organized crime assassins.

Very concealable and not very loud.


healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 7, 2015 - 05:31pm PT
I've repeatedly explained that there is a very principled and bright line between weapons of personal defense and WMDs. Don't pretend that my position is a slippery slope.

How principled and how is 'Mass' determined? I'd personally describe an AR-15 as a WMD in the hands of someone who really knows how to use one.

Whatever "declaration" that the above poster had in mind is contrary to the Constitution and would have no valid legal effect.

Last I checked, the Constitution was pretty mum on caliber, muzzle velocity and firing rate. I further suspect if an AR-15 were demonstrated before the first congress it would have instantly been categorized a WMD and illegal for any but organized militia to possess.

Gotta have an evolving, dynamic Constitution for anything but the guns of the day to be legal now. In fact, I can scarcely believe literalists / fossilists would argue otherwise.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 7, 2015 - 05:35pm PT
In the confined space of a conference room a 22 rimfire would have been just as or even more lethal.


223 rifle rounds make neat in and out holes. 22LR enter and bounce around in the body cavities tearing everything up.
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Dec 7, 2015 - 05:52pm PT
In my home state of Missouri, everybody is packing.

Everybody.

Moms, grandmas, uncles, teachers.

Concealed on person and in vehicles.

I mean EVERYBODY.


Makes you think twice about which place to attempt a mass shooting.


I wonder why every mass shooting happens where there are no guns...


Ponder that.
zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 05:55pm PT
In my home state of Missouri, everybody is packing.

If true, your mass shooting is coming down (or up) the pike. Be patient.
Norton

Social climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 05:58pm PT
I wonder why every mass shooting happens where there are no guns...

did not have to ponder of that very long at all

I thought of the one place where there are lots and lots of guns and trained people

and the 2009 US ARMY BASE AT FORT HOOD came to mind

where one man only killed 13 people and injured another 30

that was easy
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Dec 7, 2015 - 05:59pm PT
Gotta have an evolving, dynamic Constitution for anything but the guns of the day to be legal now. In fact, I can scarcely believe literalists / fossilists would argue otherwise.
\

Wrong.
The operative word in the 2nd Amendment is "arms."
It is not "arms that are currently in existence." (And even in the 18th Century, it was apparent that arms were a whole heck of a lot more effective than in previous eras--do you think the Founders were so foolish as to think innovation would for some reason stop when the Bill of Rights was enacted?)
There is no legitimate interpretation of "arms" to be "arms that happen to exist right now."
I know the libs love this "living Constitution" stuff so they can get their sodomite marriage and stop the death penalty, but it's really two different things.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 7, 2015 - 06:01pm PT
Theres a damn good chance that some control is coming, like it or not.

Oh, I have NO doubt of it. CONTROL is what the government is about, and "we the people" just can't hand it over fast enough.

I'll bemoan it and roll my eyes. In the end, I expect to be dead before it turns into full-blown Minority Report. But, sans the supernatural BS, Minority Report is what's coming.
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Dec 7, 2015 - 06:03pm PT
Sure, in places where you cannot legally carry weapons concealed.


Norton, it was a grenade dude, what a stupid example.









Norton

Social climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 06:04pm PT
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 7, 2015 - 06:06pm PT
So the answer is mo' guns and turn schools into bullet-proof, fob-driven, high-alert lockdowns. Got it. Let sanity prevail.

I WISH that sanity would prevail.

You guys aren't serious about the kids. You, like the media, USE these incidents for your own agenda and then talk about "safety measures" that you have NO reason to think will have any positive effect.

Then you justify that stupidity with some variant of the "if it can save even one life" line.

In fact, you KNOW (and it's been very publicly admitted) that all of the proposed gun-control measures would have had NO effect on the outcomes of the vast majority of these shootings, and that it's a crap-shoot as to whether there would have been any effect on the minority.

But, you know, "we've gotta do something," even if we're targeting ENTIRELY the wrong demographic.

And now our Obumbalator in Chief is crying for a "watch list" that will circumvent due process of law. Get on the list (no trial, no NOTHING but just some bureaucrat putting you there), and you lose your rights.

Yeahhhhhhh... we're not even trying to HIDE that we're a full-blown police state at this point.

"Keep us safe, Big Brother! Pleeeeaaasssee! Keep us safe!"

Makes me sick.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 7, 2015 - 06:07pm PT
I wonder why every mass shooting happens where there are no guns...


did not have to ponder of that very long at all

I thought of the one place where there are lots and lots of guns and trained people

and the 2009 US ARMY BASE AT FORT HOOD came to mind

where one man only killed 13 people and injured another 30

that was easy

Actually they're completely disarmed there, except for MP's, which kinda shocked me too.

I mean, if police at police station carry guns all day......

Making sure everyone at a military base at least has a sidearm would seem to make sense.

But the simple fact is, you are your own first responder, nobody else. It's a matter of timing. There's no way for anyone to respond to sudden violence like that except those directly involved and targeted or someone in the immediate vicinity.

madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 7, 2015 - 06:09pm PT
Stupid graphic, Norton.

Actually, Reagan didn't die.

Actually, gun-toting good-guys ENDED the incident almost as fast as it started.

I WISH that armed teachers (or any armed good-guy) had been present to stop these school incidents JUST as they get started.

No COP can respond to these incidents as fast as having the good guys with guns PRESENT, which is what your graphic really denotes.

But, ya know, just keep spinnin' the facts to suit your gun-grabbing agenda.

We just gotta become France!
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 7, 2015 - 06:22pm PT
No, the difference NOW is that the POTUS is actually flat-out saying that people just ON a watchlist are denied rights, and that without ANY due process.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 7, 2015 - 06:24pm PT
Actually, the Regan graphic isn't fair.


Half those guys had full auto Uzis strapped under their coats.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 7, 2015 - 06:27pm PT
No, the difference NOW is that the POTUS is actually flat-out saying that people just ON a watchlist are denied rights, and that without ANY due process.

You do get that the watch list and no fly list ( instituted during the Bush administration) are without due process and unconstitutional, right?
Gary

Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
Dec 7, 2015 - 07:12pm PT

Look, you lefties want to control ALL guns, which in terms of total deaths (particularly of the kiddies you so wring your hands about) have a negligible effect on total preventable death in this country (including of the kiddies).

Jesus H. Christ.
zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 07:22pm PT
Think back to the North Hollywood bank robbery shootout.

Then.

Everybody at the potluck in Berdoo could have been armed with pistolas and knowing this, the killers would have just come in armed and suited up like Larry Phillips and Emil Matasareanu.

Just as many, if not more, dead.



Edited for clarity
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 7, 2015 - 07:30pm PT
Except the Berdo perps weren't wearing body armor.

When dad got to the age when he decided to parcel out the arms, I was bequeathed with his last carry piece. A little Astra 22LR pistol.

He ran the Terrorist investigation division for the LA DA's office in the 70's and retired running the organized crime division.

Curt reply was no.

It was plenty of gun.

it was all shot placement.

zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 07:34pm PT
^They would have if it was seen to be necessary. You missed the point.

So in addition to just arming a bunch of amateurs with guns you're also going to train all of them to "shoot through" body armor.

Yep. That will definitely work.



philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 7, 2015 - 07:57pm PT
Reagan almost died and so did Brady.

But at least we once again are being told what could have been used to kill more in San Berdu..


Dec 7, 2015 - 05:35pm PT
In the confined space of a conference room a 22 rimfire would have been just as or even more lethal.


223 rifle rounds make neat in and out holes. 22LR enter and bounce around in the body cavities tearing everything up.

Pretty phuking sick!
jonnyrig

climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 08:21pm PT
Very rarely do things become mass murder when someone shoots a bad guy early on. Thus, they dont make national headlines, and eveyone who,s anti-gun can logically argue that it may not have been a mass shooting at all. Until some good guy with a glock takes out a mass murderer with an ak and multiple victims its all just conjecture.
Meanwhile, the current trend is toward increasing fear and control. It sucks. But, i,d rather see some middle-of-the-road propositions vs outright bans. Given the choice, id vote for the lesser restriction every time if it isnt insane.
Given the candidates, i suspect billary is coming. Lets not come to the plate with an empty hand and an expectation of prevalence.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 7, 2015 - 08:28pm PT
Excuse me Jim but exactly how did you conclude I was expressing grief?
Are you always an ignorant twit or are you making a special effort just for me?
jonnyrig

climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 08:42pm PT
How's that registration thing up north? Working out well? I never did quite pay attention to it, so honestly...?
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 7, 2015 - 08:43pm PT
Are you always an ignorant twit or are you making a special effort just for me?




rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 7, 2015 - 08:53pm PT
I still say the swiss model is best. Compulsory gun training and ownership. And if you take an honest looks at the stats in the U.S. it is clear that the firearm homicide rate has declined as the rate of gun ownership rose.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 7, 2015 - 09:14pm PT

Dec 7, 2015 - 08:53pm PT
I still say the swiss model is best. Compulsory gun training and ownership.

Well, OK, but the Swiss model includes relief of about a third of those eligible from the requirement to keep and bear arms as part of their service.

Those who don't pass Psychological muster don't get a permit.
From Wikipedia:
About two-thirds of young Swiss men are found suitable for service,

You think this country is ready for that?
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Dec 7, 2015 - 09:18pm PT
In fact, you KNOW (and it's been very publicly admitted) that all of the proposed gun-control measures would have had NO effect on the outcomes of the vast majority of these shootings, and that it's a crap-shoot as to whether there would have been any effect on the minority

Pure speculatiom. There is now way to know exactly what would have happened or not with a "proposed" law that has not been enacted.



Tgt, a 223 can do more carnage than a 22, depends on the makeup of the round.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 7, 2015 - 09:22pm PT
A third excluded is about right Lorenzo. In the u.s. that third corresponds nicely with the ratio of insane liberals.
jonnyrig

climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 09:22pm PT
^^^ That's funny.
Thanks Jim. All I'd really heard was unsubstantiated rumor.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 7, 2015 - 09:23pm PT
Well, that excludes about a third insane Rambo wannabes.

We'll be a bit understaffed.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 7, 2015 - 09:27pm PT
No your way off on the wannabe quantity. Their numbers aren't significant, just the horror they wreak on the soft targets they choose.
jonnyrig

climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 09:48pm PT
Hmm. Interesting link on that Canadian Registry. Did I see something in there about a differentiation between pistols longer and shorter than 4.1 inches? Are you actually allowed to own, say, a revolver with a barrel longer than 4.1 inches?

Weird, y'all have long rifles, and seemingly less mass shootings than we do, despite debate over whether or not the registry has done any good. Must be a difference in culture.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 7, 2015 - 09:51pm PT
"Difference in culture". Yeah Jonny, they seem to have a better sense of humor up there.
jonnyrig

climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 09:55pm PT
Well, they do laugh at us a lot. But I kinda figured it was mutual.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 8, 2015 - 12:01am PT
Pure speculatiom. There is now way to know exactly what would have happened or not with a "proposed" law that has not been enacted.

Pure stupidity.

Apparently we humans have NO ability to recognize predict causal connections in advance of events. We must just stupidly wait to see how things turn out.

Actually, in REALITY, we're pretty good at figuring things out in advance. Like, we know this in advance:

1) A law that simply makes bears illegal will have ZERO effect upon the bear population. Shockingly, bears don't give a rat's tail-junction about what laws get passed.

2) Criminals intent on murder don't care AT ALL about mag-size-limit laws and have countless ways to circumvent such laws. So, such laws will have ZERO effect on criminals having large-cap magazines. And in NONE of these "high-cap" shootings were the mags even mostly depleted; the NUMBER of mags was far more significant, as the shooters frequently and rapidly dropped and replaced mags. But nobody proposes any "number of mags" laws, despite the fact that CAPACITY of mags has been shown to be irrelevant given ENOUGH mags.

3) Universal background checks WILL be circumvented, just as immigration laws are circumvented. We have ZERO evidence to suggest that black markets dry up in the face of such laws. Instead, we have AMPLE evidence to suggest that black markets are CREATED by such laws.

4) The Feds are INSANELY incompetent at processing information. So we KNOW that countless cases (as we have already seen just such cases) will slip through the cracks. Patch over cracks, and new cracks will appear. This will be whack-a-mole in which every mole that gets whacked will produce two more.

And the litany goes on and on.

A year after Colorado passed its most comprehensive slate of gun-control laws in its history, Governor Hickenlooper announced publicly and forthrightly that his signature on those laws was a mistake, that he had not been aware of the facts, that NONE of the new laws would have had the slightest effect in stopping ANY of the mass-shootings in Colorado, and that it seems highly unlikely that such laws would even have produced a reduction in casualties.

This is the Demoncratic Governor who was wooed and "convinced" by Bloomberg into selling out the state in opposition to the advice of law enforcement leaders without exception across the state. Instead, a year later, "Oops! BIG mistake. To do over again, I wouldn't sign those laws."

And, indeed. No surprise to those of us that CAN recognize obviously causally disconnected events (apparently you are not in that group), Colorado continues to have such shootings even AFTER this great slate of gun-control laws, two incidents this year.

You want more? I've got MUCH more. MANY gun-control proponent leaders across this nation ADMIT that "We really don't think these laws will have any measurable effect, but we have to start somewhere."

Yeah, in fact, we have NO evidence (except the pure speculation YOU mentioned) to think that there is any causal connection between all of the proposed laws and a reduction in gun-violence nor in the casualty lists once they happen.

But, you know, tally ho and all that. "We've gotta do SOMETHING," even if it's akin to making bears illegal.

Just keep makin' those pesky bears illegal, and eventually, since you "started somewhere," some incredibly unpredictable chain of events will result in some bear not being born that otherwise would be. And THAT very bear might have been the one to maul a group of boy scouts to death. So, "If there's some chance that some lives could be saved, then it's a 'moral outrage' if we don't TRY to DO SOMETHING!"

Oh, and while you're at it, you should impose that illegal-bear law ON law-abiding citizens.

Why? Well, because they ARE the only ones that are even going to care to try to abide by it, being law-abiding and all.

So, you could, I don't know... make it universally mandatory that every person sighting a bear must file a report to the federal government on Form 18377s-B (only 20 pages) about the details of the sighting. There will, of course, be NO follow-up on the part of federal agencies. But, at least we're DOING SOMETHING.

Dang! It just feels SO GOOD and SO righteous to be DOING SOMETHING.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 8, 2015 - 12:28am PT
No laws are going to do anything so long as there are 300 million guns floating about and more being cranked out and sold every day (as if 300 million aren't enough).

Funny how there are about the same number of automobiles as there are guns, yet we miraculously title, license and insure automobiles and license and test drivers despite overwhelming guberment bungling and incompetence.

The idea we couldn't do exactly the same thing for guns is ludicrous. Combine that with a buyback / meltdown program and making the sale and possession of whole classes of weapons with no legitimate use for the defense of the home illegal would immeasurably improve the situation.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 8, 2015 - 01:26am PT
No laws are going to do anything so long as there are 300 million guns floating about and more being cranked out and sold every day (as if 300 million aren't enough).

Nobody has yet even started to make the case that the number of guns has ANY relevance. If anything, the sheer ridiculous number of them in circulation, coupled with the VERY low number of incidents, indicates that the number IS irrelevant.

Cut the number in half, and you will NOT get half the incidents. In fact, while the number of guns has doubled in the last decade, the incidence of homicide (including homicide by gun) is down over 40% in that same period.

Funny how there are about the same number of automobiles as there are guns, yet we miraculously title, license and insure automobiles and license and test drivers despite overwhelming guberment bungling and incompetence.

1) The bureaucracy you cite is handled at the state and local levels rather than at the federal level. That helps with efficiency a LOT.

2) You can't hide a car! You cannot fail to license/register it and drive it around for long without getting called on it. That failure is there on full-display for all to easily see.

The idea we couldn't do exactly the same thing for guns is ludicrous.

For the reasons cited above, you will NOT succeed with such an effort. Period. I'm a law-abiding citizen, but I also draw lines in the sand regarding my rights, and I WILL NOT participate in any such program. There are tens of millions more like me on this point. And that doesn't count the criminals who will laugh at your effort.

This is a non-starter because the whole idea is causally ludicrous.

Combine that with a buyback / meltdown program and making the sale and possession of whole classes of weapons with no legitimate use for the defense of the home illegal would immeasurably improve the situation.

No, sorry. It would measurably have NO effect upon the situation. Australia's buyback was forced, and no such thing is going to pass muster here. And, again, tens of millions of law-abiding citizens here will have NOTHING to do with it.

Also, the kinds of guns you'll get in even small quantities are not the ones being used by criminals to commit crimes.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 8, 2015 - 02:14am PT
Some Perspective on This Supposed "Moral Outrage"

Would you consider gun-control laws a rousing success if the number of gun-caused homicides (not suicides) was reduced to, say, the number of people dying each year by walking?

Wait! Before you go run out to look it up and then decide if the data fits with your preconceptions, ANSWER INTUITIVELY.

IS there some "national tragedy" or "national crisis" of walking deaths?

A "walking death" is typically a distracted pedestrian who walks off a cliff, into a sharp object, or otherwise damages him/herself while walking... literally walking into death. This is NOT including auto/pedestrian encounters. This is pedestrians just walking themselves into a death-dealing situation not caused by a car.

What do you think, intuitively? How much do you hear about these incidents? IS this a "national crisis" that "something just MUST be done about"?

I've compiled causes of death based upon the available data from the CDC and FBI. It's difficult to compare apples and apples on the numbers, since data is not available for all years and has end-years at different points for different causes of death.

For example, for some causes, we have data for 2014. For most, the end-year is 2012 or even 2010. For some data, even the FBI can only extrapolate an annual number from five or more years of data and divide by the number of years; literal annual data does not exist. And so on.

But the following charts show not just the top causes of death in the USA, but of note is that ALL of them are largely or entirely preventable! So, the dying that is really getting people is NOT "just wearing out by old age." People are dying BECAUSE they are doing things that we KNOW cause death, plain and simple.

So, let's break down what about 1.2 million preventable deaths per year looks like (the bars are to relative scale):


First, notice that heart disease (almost entirely preventable)and cancer (largely preventable) make up the VAST majority of the numbers of dead. The entire rest of the chart pales by comparison to the big two.

What would eliminate almost all of that death? Education about a healthy lifestyle and the WILL to conform one's lifestyle to some really basic principles. It is the mere fact that MOST people can't be bothered that is producing all that unnecessary death.

But people think of most of those columns as "passive," as though nobody is really responsible for them. NOT true, but I'll let that slide for the moment. Let's focus on the gun deaths.

First, suicides. Only half of all suicides are committed by gun. So, if you could eliminate guns from society and all of those people just gave up their efforts, you'd save some lives, but not even a blip on the chart. Of course, all those people are NOT going to give up their efforts.

Furthermore, it's not fair or accurate to think that gun-control laws of ANY sort in the USA are going to eliminate or even statistically-significantly reduce the gun-caused suicides. The vast majority of these people purchased and possess their gun legally (even according to proposed gun-control laws). So, moving Heaven and Earth, you might zero in on some of the at-risk people in advance and keep them from even getting a gun. But the numbers you would save are not big-picture statistically significant. And those people are likely to just off themselves via suffocation, as the chart shows.

More telling is that as many people die from kidney disease as kill themselves! Is THAT a "national crisis" that means we must expend MASS quantities of money and legislative effort to identify at-risk people and pay for them to make it to a nephrologist at taxpayer expense?

Be honest! Would you have intuitively imagined that kidney disease was some sort of "national crisis"?

But, you know, if somebody REALLY wants to kill themselves, it's not really the same as somebody MURDERING the person. Murder is a particularly bad way to go. That is our intuition. So, let's talk about murder.

The gun-homicide numbers are actually dropping year by year, according to the FBI, so I chose 2013's number as a sort of average for the last five years, according to the FBI's table: https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/tables/expanded-homicide-data/expanded_homicide_data_table_8_murder_victims_by_weapon_2010-2014.xls

Hmm... well, 8454 is not even CLOSE to the 12,000 or 32,000 numbers that are commonly bandied about!

And, actually, a significant number of people are murdered by knife every year.

Notice that those numbers are not even statistically significant on the chart that actually puts death into relative perspective. Only a TINY, TINY number of people are getting murdered by gun each year!

But we can reduce that number "dramatically" (relatively speaking).

The top six gun-murder cities in the USA account for 5497 of those gun-caused murders. And that was based upon the latest numbers I could find. The FBI believes that the numbers are going up in those cities, so 5497 for 2010 is actually a VERY conservative figure as a part of the 2013 total gun-murders in the USA. Instead of about 65%, the figure for the top-six in 2014 is probably closer to 70%.

So, already, if you just don't live in the top six "murder-capital" cities (respectively: LA, Chicago, NY, Phily, Houston, and Detroit), you essentially are just not going to get murdered by a gun-wielding person.

Moreover, the FBI estimates that between 60% and 80% of gun-murders in those very cities are "gang-related" rather than typical "argument" incidents.

So, sum all that up, and the results are very telling!

If you somehow stopped gang-related murders, you would immediately reduce gun-murders nationwide by AT LEAST half, bringing the number of gun-murders nationwide down to about 4200 per year.

That's ALL gun-murders, including mass-shootings.

For perspective, 5400 people WALK into death each year!

So, if you REALLY want to have a measurable effect on gun-homicides, you SHOULD focus on the causes and cures of gang-violence! THAT IS where the real problem does lie, and with that alone, you would bring gun-murders down into the "national crisis" range of WALKING DEATHS.

Now, for a final insight into relative numbers, just to REALLY put things into proper and ACCURATE perspective, I offer the same chart as above... but this time, let's include the population of the USA (again, all bars are to relative scale):


Uhh... hmmm. Yeah, it's hard to see a "national crisis" ANYWHERE on this chart.

People are dying, and MOST of that dying is entirely preventable.

But ALL causes of dying COMBINED don't even SHOW on a chart compared to the US population.

People honestly cannot get the sheer vastness of 1/3 of a BILLION people into perspective! We hear of thousands of deaths and are horrified. Yes, EACH person matters, and EACH death unfortunately affects others tragically. But ALL of that death combined isn't even a blip compared to the sheer numbers of people in this nation.

Find some PERSPECTIVE, people. DOUBLE the real gun-homicide numbers, and they are still not nationally significant AT ALL!

The MEDIA spins the facts BY putting one thing in your face, then in your face again, then again, and again and again and again!

WHY are they not reporting on the "national crisis" of walking deaths???

WHY is the POTUS not calling for some "walking list" to be compiled, so that we can identify at-risk walkers and PREVENT that utterly needless death???

Let's have some PERSPECTIVE, people, not more and more USELESS and causally-unrelated laws!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 8, 2015 - 03:13am PT
The majority of your response is comparing gun violence to health-related issues. Can't remember when the last time anyone's diabetes or heart attack physically injured or killed anyone else. A pointless comparison.

Also, and as you point out, major metropolitan areas have a legitimate interest in curbing gun possession and use within their jurisdictions.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Dec 8, 2015 - 05:07am PT
patrick compton

Trad climber
van

Dec 7, 2015 - 12:07pm PT
Just bought a Sig 9mil over the weekend.


I grew up shooting small bore, and around guns. Also, I live in a sketchy area of town.

Fear mongering brainwashed gun freak.

LOL!

PS: What model btw?

PS2022

I'm used to having a proper safety, so the double action/10lb initial trigger pull is taking a bit of getting used to.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Dec 8, 2015 - 05:26am PT
NRA = Guilty. Their supporters = Guilty.

By Richard Cohen.

Years ago, I rushed up the stairs to the Tobacco Institute in Washington and confronted the people working there: How could you? How could you lie to us about the dangers of smoking? Everyone there was smoking, I remember that, and I either referred to a mound of bodies outside the door or wanted to. Now I want to do something similar — rush to the National Rifle Association and confront Wayne LaPierre, its chief executive, and yell, “LaPierre, look what you’ve done.”

The “done” refers to San Bernardino. It refers to Planned Parenthood and Columbine and Sandy Hook. It refers to Roseburg and Chattanooga, Charleston, Fort Hood and every place of mass killing, where some crazy person, some lunatic, someone who thinks he’s got the thumbs-up from God, had the legal right to get a gun, often an assault rifle, a weapon of war, and then just shoot away — rat-a-tat-tat. Bodies everywhere. You did this, LaPierre. You and your NRA.

Oh, I know: Don’t personalize this, Cohen. If LaPierre weren’t the head of the NRA, someone else would be. Someone else would warn us about what would happen if assault weapons were banned — “jack-booted government thugs” would “break in our doors, seize our guns, destroy our property and even injure or kill us,” LaPierre once said.

Even if the NRA didn’t exist, we would still be a nation just moony over guns. If we did away with assault weapons, the day-to-day threat would still be the handgun. You can’t shove a .223- caliber assault rifle in your pocket or put it into the glove compartment of your car. Still, it was two assault rifles that were used to murder 14 people in San Bernardino. Two otherwise ordinary individuals, dressed as soldiers, went to war.

The United States’ inability to control guns has made it dizzy with incoherence. The president draped the august Oval Office around himself to give a speech in which he said nothing. Looking like a man in need of some Zoloft, Obama said he would respond to the murders in California by increasing the pressure on the Islamic State in Syria. He also mentioned that there’s no evidence that the shooters had been in touch with the Islamic State, so bombing it, while always a good idea, in this case is just beside the point.

The Republicans have an even worse idea. Realizing that they have to come up with something, the GOP is considering putting more money into mental-health programs. More money for mental health is always welcome, but just how it relates to mass murders is beyond me. Should the government troll the streets looking for people who talk to themselves? Did House Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy (Calif.) — “mental health . . . seems to be a core problem” — notice that there was nothing untoward in the behavior of Syed Rizwan Farook and Tashfeen Malik? Farook had a job. The couple just had a child. They were normal, until they were not. (McCarthy, cure thyself.)

We cannot predict a homicidal act. The shooter is almost always described as a loner. Is being alone a crime? Shall we criminalize shyness? Will Donald Trump let us use his guys to round up the introverted while sweeping for Mexicans? (How’s that for synergy, Donald?)

The one thing we can do — the thing we and every other nation know how to do — is restrict gun ownership. In the past, that was not considered either un-American or unfeasible. In 1969, Milton S. Eisenhower, the former president of Johns Hopkins University, the brother of an ex-president and the very personification of a stolid Republican, recommended the confiscation of handguns. As far as I know, no one considered Eisenhower a left-wing kook.

The solution to the menace of domestic terrorism is staring us in the face. It is some sort of gun control. We cannot close down the Internet so that the Islamic State’s siren call cannot reach the susceptible. We cannot cull our population for the potentially homicidal. We cannot — we must not — monitor or surveil Muslims in general. Instead, we must look at all these incidents and see what they have in common: guns.

So, excuse me if I do personalize this crisis. It’s about guns and the NRA and chicken politicians who know right from wrong but vote wrong. It’s about common sense and taking responsibility for your actions. It’s about LaPierre and the NRA. Open the door, Wayne. See what you’ve done. See the bodies.

johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Dec 8, 2015 - 05:46am PT

Pure stupidity.

Apparently we humans have NO ability to recognize predict causal connections in advance of events. We must just stupidly wait to see how things turn out.

Actually, in REALITY, we're pretty good at figuring things out in advance. Like, we know this in advance:

1) A law that simply makes bears illegal will have ZERO effect upon the bear population. Shockingly, bears don't give a rat's tail-junction about what laws get passed.

2) Criminals intent on murder don't care AT ALL about mag-size-limit laws and have countless ways to circumvent such laws. So, such laws will have ZERO effect on criminals having large-cap magazines. And in NONE of these "high-cap" shootings were the mags even mostly depleted; the NUMBER of mags was far more significant, as the shooters frequently and rapidly dropped and replaced mags. But nobody proposes any "number of mags" laws, despite the fact that CAPACITY of mags has been shown to be irrelevant given ENOUGH mags.

3) Universal background checks WILL be circumvented, just as immigration laws are circumvented. We have ZERO evidence to suggest that black markets dry up in the face of such laws. Instead, we have AMPLE evidence to suggest that black markets are CREATED by such laws.

4) The Feds are INSANELY incompetent at processing information. So we KNOW that countless cases (as we have already seen just such cases) will slip through the cracks. Patch over cracks, and new cracks will appear. This will be whack-a-mole in which every mole that gets whacked will produce two more.

And the litany goes on and on.

A year after Colorado passed its most comprehensive slate of gun-control laws in its history, Governor Hickenlooper announced publicly and forthrightly that his signature on those laws was a mistake, that he had not been aware of the facts, that NONE of the new laws would have had the slightest effect in stopping ANY of the mass-shootings in Colorado, and that it seems highly unlikely that such laws would even have produced a reduction in casualties.

This is the Demoncratic Governor who was wooed and "convinced" by Bloomberg into selling out the state in opposition to the advice of law enforcement leaders without exception across the state. Instead, a year later, "Oops! BIG mistake. To do over again, I wouldn't sign those laws."

And, indeed. No surprise to those of us that CAN recognize obviously causally disconnected events (apparently you are not in that group), Colorado continues to have such shootings even AFTER this great slate of gun-control laws, two incidents this year.

You want more? I've got MUCH more. MANY gun-control proponent leaders across this nation ADMIT that "We really don't think these laws will have any measurable effect, but we have to start somewhere."

Yeah, in fact, we have NO evidence (except the pure speculation YOU mentioned) to think that there is any causal connection between all of the proposed laws and a reduction in gun-violence nor in the casualty lists once they happen.

But, you know, tally ho and all that. "We've gotta do SOMETHING," even if it's akin to making bears illegal.

Just keep makin' those pesky bears illegal, and eventually, since you "started somewhere," some incredibly unpredictable chain of events will result in some bear not being born that otherwise would be. And THAT very bear might have been the one to maul a group of boy scouts to death. So, "If there's some chance that some lives could be saved, then it's a 'moral outrage' if we don't TRY to DO SOMETHING!"

Oh, and while you're at it, you should impose that illegal-bear law ON law-abiding citizens.

Why? Well, because they ARE the only ones that are even going to care to try to abide by it, being law-abiding and all.

So, you could, I don't know... make it universally mandatory that every person sighting a bear must file a report to the federal government on Form 18377s-B (only 20 pages) about the details of the sighting. There will, of course, be NO follow-up on the part of federal agencies. But, at least we're DOING SOMETHING.

Dang! It just feels SO GOOD and SO righteous to be DOING SOMETHING Here

Pure denial, then smoke and mirrors of assumptions.

philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 8, 2015 - 06:39am PT
Ho Man, ain't we havin' fun now.
overwatch

climber
Dec 8, 2015 - 06:54am PT
MB1 pretty much destroys you guys debate-wise. The only one close is Healye.

HDDJ does pretty good too, just my opinion, of course.
zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 8, 2015 - 07:20am PT
say ed the working pakastani mule


The owner of the Riverside shooting range had two hankerchief heads shooting military style weapons getting ready to rag up and bang and concluded ed was "normal guy".

WTF? The gun world has a funny definition of normal I guess. Go on, take the money and run.


patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Dec 8, 2015 - 07:25am PT
If I still need to take shoes off at the airport, these guys ^^^ need to flagged by the FBI.

The Feds dropped the ball.

FWIW, I agree with Healyje's posts. But, the reality today is that I bought a gun over the weekend, cash, no waiting period, no registration.

How is this different than buying one illegally on the street? Only that the illegal gun may have been used in a crime. I bought new at a gun show.

Gawd bless Murica.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 8, 2015 - 07:39am PT
How the hell does anyone get into the country looking like that? He's sporting the beard of the extremists ( the no-mustache Muhammed beard ) and she's wearing a death cloak.

And they were let right in. No surprise it ended badly.

His story is he had to go all the way to Pakistan to find a wife. But look what he brought home. To California.

Maybe Trump is onto something.
zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 8, 2015 - 07:41am PT
I am wondering, though, about when Trump gets around to it, whether he will shoot the baby and grandma or just feed them to an alligator?

11-Foot Gator Eats Burglar
http://patch.com/florida/sarasota/11-foot-gator-eats-burglar-0

rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 8, 2015 - 07:42am PT
^^^^^No shet. But they didn't have ISIS tattooed on their forheads.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired Climber
Dec 8, 2015 - 07:48am PT

If I still need to take shoes off at the airport, these guys ^^^ need to flagged by the FBI.

The Feds dropped the ball.

How do you know it wasn't a Halloween costume? (That's a joke, son)

Seriously, the PC crowd would say you are profiling.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 8, 2015 - 08:01am PT
madbolter posted
Some Perspective on This Supposed "Moral Outrage"

Again, this is a really specious and callow argument that does not need to be directly rebutted. The moral outrage comes from the fact that there are thousands of people who die from a completely preventable cause that we are choosing to do nothing about. There are lots of ways that people die. Rightly or wrongly we do not have equal reactions to all of them, but most of them we make some effort to mitigate. With gun violence, we seem eager to make the situation worse.

Coincidentally, I am a trauma coordinator. My job is to help make the data sets and follow the patients who get hurt. We have whole committees working on how to reduce pedestrian injury (falls). It's a huge portion of the injuries we see, primarily in the elderly. There is lots of research into it because it's a huge public health problem and a major drain on resources. There is no "moral outrage" because we are taking measures as a society to mitigate the problem. Also because these aren't "pushing" injuries, they are "falling" injuries. Again, the gun lobby has successfully blocked the CDC from doing research on gun violence and many states have banned doctors from asking their patients about gun safety. Those same doctors ask all kinds of questions about their patients' fall risk.

So why not stop with these really awful very bad arguments already? It's like watching my 8 year old try to contort a valid reason why she didn't bring a winter coat to her outdoor field trip on a 30 degree day when she doesn't want to just admit she thought her raincoat looks better. We have a problem with guns. Stop pretending we don't have a problem with guns. Because we have a problem with guns. You very bad arguments trying to distract from our very real gun problem aren't working.

MB continued
Yeah, in fact, we have NO evidence (except the pure speculation YOU mentioned) to think that there is any causal connection between all of the proposed laws and a reduction in gun-violence nor in the casualty lists once they happen.

I'd love to discuss actual gun control measures that would reduce our injuries and deaths and that would still allow for reasonable private gun ownership. That's a completely achievable goal as has been demonstrated in other countries. Gun control works. NYC has an incredibly low gun violence rate because it is surrounded by states/cities with relatively strict gun laws. Chicago has a very high gun violence rate in part because it is surrounded by cities/states with very permissive gun laws. We also have a cultural problem. One in which guns are seen as a solution. Americans think people should be shot for stealing, for trespassing, for running away from police. It's absurd and it needs to change.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Dec 8, 2015 - 08:17am PT
How do you know it wasn't a Halloween costume? (That's a joke, son)

Seriously, the PC crowd would say you are profiling.

well, maybe it is time to start profiling anyway, the right way.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2011/01/whats_so_great_about_israeli_security.html
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 8, 2015 - 08:53am PT
Here's the San Bernardino I know and some people love:

"SAN BERNARDINO: Grocery shopping ends in slaying"

http://www.pe.com/articles/shopping-788683-bernardino-grocery.html

It's good to see life getting back to normal there. Those people have been through enough.

Murder-a-week, every week. All year long. More murders in S.B. than in San Francisco and Seattle both put together despite there being only 200,000 people living in San Bernardino.

Car wash TBA
jonnyrig

climber
Dec 8, 2015 - 09:02am PT
Im sure gun control would be about as ineffective in the long run as seat belt laws. No lives saved there, right?
overwatch

climber
Dec 8, 2015 - 09:08am PT
I worked there doing armed security at an FHA housing project called Meadowbrook. There are some hardcore knuckleheads in San Bernardino. I wore body armor with rifle plates and carried two guns. Guess what the locals called me...two guns. Pretty on the money those deep thinkers.
jonnyrig

climber
Dec 8, 2015 - 09:15am PT
Hey M.B., is it your entire argument that all we need is education campaigns for guns? What would that look like- safe handling classes? Like hunter safety? Like what they require in CA now for pistols? Obviously, you wouldnt make those mandatory, which means by your own logic they would be completely useless, considering you see no way for even mandatory programs to have positive effects.

So in one post you acknowledge you think some form of control is coming down the pipe, and in most others you fight tooth and nail against any and all forms of control, stating all will fail and good law abiding citizens, yourself included, will voluntarily become criminals rimply because its your opinion that the law miit violate your rights. Indicates a complete and utter diregard for law and due process, dont you think? How is that different from, say, a deeply religious person failing to perform their duties due to their beliefs? Or outright violating the law becuse it conflicts with their religion?

See, in your case, its just your opinion, without vetting it through a court process to prove that it is, in fact, unconstitutional. And if thats your position, i have to wonder what other laws would you willingly ignore?
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 8, 2015 - 09:41am PT

What would be wrong with that?
overwatch

climber
Dec 8, 2015 - 09:44am PT
Works for me...as long as the insurance were affordable, maybe provided by the NRA since they care so much. Given insurance companies and their f u c k e d up ways I have no faith there.

Edit;

Good question. Probably a "from here forward" type of thing. Maybe increased enforcement at shooting ranges and areas? "Show me ze papers!"

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Dec 8, 2015 - 09:51am PT
Since I own an unregistered handgun (legal in my state), what motivation do I have to register it, pay insurance and pay for training?

Not saying it is bad idea, I'm being the devil's advocate.



Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Dec 8, 2015 - 10:38am PT
Insurance companies would be more than happy to cover liability on firearms. But they would claim exemption from compensating victims because the shootings were
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
an act of God.

Seriously, I think liability insurance on firearms is an interesting idea.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 8, 2015 - 11:07am PT
Insurance and registration requirements would no doubt disproportionately harm minorities, the same as voter ID requirements have been proven to do.

I can afford to pay all the fees and buy all the insurance. It won't affect me. But what chance does a single woman of color living in a shitty neighborhood have to be able to cover all that extra expense? She's the one who needs protection on hand. Not me, a fit white male living in a very quiet neighborhood.

This issue - should the Democrats choose to push it - will have the Dems' coming off looking like Republicans and their *voter ID* nonsense.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 8, 2015 - 11:14am PT
Yes, more laws and more insurance requirements. That always helps.

Well, it helps politicians, lawyers, and insurance companies anyway.

Seek root causes, the solutions lie there, not downstream.

overwatch

climber
Dec 8, 2015 - 12:04pm PT
Root causes like humans being genetically disposed to violence?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 8, 2015 - 12:36pm PT
The moral outrage comes from the fact that there are thousands of people who die from a completely preventable cause that we are choosing to do nothing about.

Really? If murder is completely preventable, please share with us how we do that. While you're at it, don't our laws against murder and the use and possession of firearms by certain people constistute "doing something?" If not, how are more laws different?

Too many arguments on this subject claim extreme, unsupportable positions. Gun violence is not completely preventable, but neither is gun control completely ineffective. As healeyje points out, (perhaps indirectly but unmistakably), the more guns in circulation, the easier it is for a criminal to obtain one. Logically, one would expect that fact to have some deterrent effect.

The analogy to automobiles strikes me as specious, since nothing in the Bill of Rights makes keeping and using automobiles a right of the people. Maybe if we had a debate based on realistic proposals in contemporary America, the country might find an acceptable solution. Instead we have a clash of two opposing quasi-religious beliefs, that produces nothing but noise.

John
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 8, 2015 - 12:38pm PT
John posted
Really? If murder is completely preventable, please share with us how we do that. While you're at it, don't our laws against murder and the use and possession of firearms by certain people consistute "doing something?" If not, how are more laws different?

Too many arguments on this subject claim extreme, unsupportable positions. Gun violence is not completely preventable, but neither is gun control completely ineffective.

I never made the claim that all gun deaths were completely preventable, so please don't straw man my point.

Maybe if we had a debate based on realistic proposals in contemporary America, the country might find an acceptable solution. Instead we have a clash of two opposing quasi-religious beliefs, that produces nothing but noise.

That has been my point repeatedly and several of us have suggested places to start. It would be far more helpful if you engaged with those ideas lest one think you are focusing on the extremes as an easy way of avoiding it.


Chaz posted
Insurance and registration requirements would no doubt disproportionately harm minorities, the same as voter ID requirements have been proven to do.

I can afford to pay all the fees and buy all the insurance. It won't affect me. But what chance does a single woman of color living in a shitty neighborhood have to be able to cover all that extra expense? She's the one who needs protection on hand. Not me, a fit white male living in a very quiet neighborhood.

I'm glad to hear that you:
1. Are acknowledging that voter discrimination exists
2. Are acknowledging that wealth inequality is a problem
3. Are acknowledging that institutional racism exists

It was just this morning that you were saying horribly racist things. Did you get Scrooged or something? What a difference a day makes!
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 8, 2015 - 12:49pm PT
HDDJ, Please forgive me if I misread your argument. I took your use of "completely preventable" to mean something different from "some of which are preventable." This seems a more logical meaning to me, particularly when you add the phrase "that we are choosing to do nothing about." "Completely" and "nothing" constitute descriptions of extreme cases. I therefore concluded that you were propounding an extreme case.

My post obviously acknowledges that some gun laws have some of the desired effects. I'm trying to get people away from "all," "every," "absolute," "total," etc. in this debate, to try to focus on what might actually help.

John
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 8, 2015 - 12:59pm PT
Well if we really want to get semantic, they ARE "completely preventable." We just would have no interest in living in that world. Gun violence is a preventable illness no different than heart disease and diabetes. We may never reach 0 but that does not mean we shouldn't try.

Glad to see you're again picking the argument of convenience instead of engaging with the policy options, John. ;-)
jstan

climber
Dec 8, 2015 - 01:54pm PT
I have been trying to understand why the perpetrators first went back to Redlands and then, of all places, came back to the site of the original attack. If you will remember the middle east has often experienced second attacks at the same site as an earlier attack; the point being to kill concentrations of emergency personnel. The most embarrassing situation conceivable.

Assume they intended this but needed something back at the house, such as more ammo or a replacement firearm. Their early exit from the first attack supports such a strategic plan. To have a second attack they needed to get away from the first immediately. Which they did.

Assuming all of this is true what can we learn? It would seem our first responders were quicker and more powerful than had been the experience in the M/E or even in the Boston bombing. The second attack failed completely. Hiding in place for an extended period of time at this site kept the streets clear of civilians and out of potential fields of fire.

At the Boston bombing, the crowds formed a linear grouping on the open streets, it seems there was no plan to get people moving away from that grouping as fast as possible and using every exit available.

Tactics are going to depend critically on the site and the exposures involved.

Training will become key. For everyone.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Dec 8, 2015 - 02:47pm PT
MB1 pretty much destroys you guys debate-wise. The only one close is Healye.

HDDJ does pretty good too, just my opinion, of course. Here

Not if you fall for his false equivalencies (or as I called them, smoke and mirrors).

1) A law that simply makes bears illegal will have ZERO effect upon the bear population. Shockingly, bears don't give a rat's tail-junction about what laws get passed

Although it made for one long page of funny stuff, he missed his mark. No one here is talking about the "bear", the laws are made to condone how YOU, a person may interact with a bear. There are plenty of laws out there that curtail what a human came do with regards of possessing a bear. Same way the laws against guns are designed to curtail what interaction a human can have with them. They're not simply outlawing the existence of a gun, duh.

Other then that he is consistant on his stance. He doesn't trust government and no laws that don't go along with his laundry list of hurdles shall be passed against guns. I rarely read his entire rants any more as they're just a trip down a rabbit hole, and thats to bad because when he does write things worth reading, they're more than likely to be filled with cheap shots demeaning his opponents and his insight is quicky lost.

Anyone that doesn't think the tide against guns isn't slowly turning has there head in the sand. We can fight it and lose a lot or we can start taking a realistic position that may ease the all or nothing mentality.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 8, 2015 - 02:52pm PT
Well if we really want to get semantic, they ARE "completely preventable." We just would have no interest in living in that world. Gun violence is a preventable illness no different than heart disease and diabetes. We may never reach 0 but that does not mean we shouldn't try.

Point taken and accepted, HDDJ. I'm not sure heart disease is truly preventable in every instance, any more than cancer is preventable in every instance. All we can do is decrease the odds of being a victim. Your explanation, quoted above, tells me that you and I are searching for the same thing: laws that reduce our danger of being victims of gun violence without creating a society in which we don't want to live.

With that thought in mind, and with the rather stark polarity of opinions on this issue, I think the most likely areas for progress now would be expanded background checks and, eventually (sooner rather than later in my preference) some form of firearm registration.

I realize background checks probably would not have prevented the San Bernardino massacre, but I would hope that they would reduce some of the incidents of shootings, particularly those of the "mental illness" variety. Just because a measure is imperfect doesnt mean it's useless.

In the registration context, the main argument I read is that registration makes confiscation easier. True, but irrelevant. If confiscation ever gets enacted, it will require a change in the Second Amendment (or a Supreme Court whose justices hold the view of words' meanings that Humpty-Dumpty held in Alice in Wonderland (or was it Through the Looking Glasss?) If that large a proportion of the population supports that extreme a position of gun control, the weapons will be confiscated anyway - at least of the law-abiding citizens. I think that would be a tragedy, but that's beside the point. As long as there are 300+ million guns in circulation, any government would think twice about involuntarily removing them.

If, however, we had a firearm registry, we could trace how perpetrators obtained their weapons. This would help us close loopholes, and prosecute those who helped obtain firearms for those prohibited from their possession.

Beyond that, I think we kid ourselves. We aren't Australia or Europe, that lacks a long history of armed citizenry. We need to look at the possibilities realistically, rather than theoretically.

John
WBraun

climber
Dec 8, 2015 - 02:53pm PT
You people a dumber then sh!t.

You'll eventually eliminate guns.

then they'll kill you with bio terrorism.

There's no escape for you stoopid modern people .....
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Dec 8, 2015 - 03:47pm PT
There's no escape for you stoopid modern people .....



Not even Hawkman's Escape?

Rilly?

First, you get yourself Absolutely Free. Then, you sneak away on Hawkman's Escape.







Crank-A-Loons go to Paradise City, where the rock is steep and the girls are pretty.



philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 8, 2015 - 05:35pm PT

I M A G I N E
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Dec 8, 2015 - 06:41pm PT
Crank-A-Loons go to Paradise City, where the rock is steep and the girls are pretty.

LMAO +1
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 8, 2015 - 06:50pm PT
Philo,

Do I need to compare your number above to the amount of Americans that died in Traffic Accidents during the same time frame?

BTW, there are more legally owned "guns" than there are privately owned vehicles in the United States.



Maybe we should start thinking about banning all modes of privately owned vehicular transportation in this country before we do, guns.

Right Philo?
zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 8, 2015 - 07:08pm PT
Drive by shooting!
EDIT:

Can we get an Amen for keeping the Korean Muslims out of the U.S. of A.

They're not? Can we get an Amen for keeping not-Muslim Koreans out of the U.S. of A.

How do you tell a North Korean from a South Korean? The ones in the South have slaves and the ones in the North have nukes?


Gary

Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
Dec 8, 2015 - 07:22pm PT
Rick, we already place many regulations, restrictions and licensing on cars and drivers. Why not place similar restrictions on gun ownership? Might that not help our situation?

zBrown, you have to admit that naming their missiles "dongs" was a stroke of genius.
zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 8, 2015 - 07:25pm PT
Ding Dong. The witch is dead, which old which? Amen.

The Constitution does not explicitly address nukes, therefore these are left to the States and The Wizard of Odds.

philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 8, 2015 - 08:02pm PT
UhAccording to the CDC...

Motor vehicle traffic deaths
Number of deaths: 33,804
Deaths per 100,000 population: 10.7

All firearm deaths
Number of deaths: 33,636
Deaths per 100,000 population: 10.6

Estimates on number of guns in the US range between 250,000,000 and 310,000,000
Number of registered cars in the US is 250,000,000+

All numbers are for 2013.
Not to to boldly mention auto deaths have been on a steady decline annually.

And your point was?

And your point was?
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 8, 2015 - 08:54pm PT
Laws don't change willful human behavior. They never have and never will...

Ergo more laws simply enrich the law makers and add to an already absurdly massive tome of shite which already covers everything from Anthrax to Zoos.

Education is key in all things. The truth shall set us all free. And I'm a firm believer in cheap, fun, and effective firearms education as a result. That can and will prevent 99% of the accidental/stupid firearm incidents which is great. But accidental/stupid firearm incidents don't amount to much statistically.

People willfully killing other people will never stop, ever. The best we can do is try to understand if their are any common root causes that can be fixed.

I'd propose ending the absurd "War on Drugs" as a common sense first step. Think of how much violence that creates and how much money is burned shoveling sand into the ocean in the effort. If we could eliminate most of the drug related murders and remove this false economy it would be a good start. This will never happen though since imagine the amount of pages we'd have to rip out of that absurd tome of shite...



Gary

Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
Dec 9, 2015 - 05:31am PT
I'd propose ending the absurd "War on Drugs" as a common sense first step. Think of how much violence that creates and how much money is burned shoveling sand into the ocean in the effort. If we could eliminate most of the drug related murders and remove this false economy it would be a good start. This will never happen though since imagine the amount of pages we'd have to rip out of that absurd tome of shite...

That would be a great start.
zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 9, 2015 - 06:31am PT
Just in.

TRUMP LOANED SAY ED AND WHATSHERNAME $28,500 TO FINANCE ATTACK AND PROMOTE ANTi-MUSLIM FERVOR

He said [sic] it was a good deal because he also got a good interest rate.


Pledges to never do it again.



zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 9, 2015 - 06:40am PT
Is the Constitution a law or just a document?

Look what A2 has done toward changing wilfull human [sic] gun behavior in the U.S. of A.

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 9, 2015 - 06:54am PT
fear posted
Laws don't change willful human behavior. They never have and never will...

Oh well. Debate over guys.
zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 9, 2015 - 06:54am PT
Ask Michael Vick

'They depend on us like children:' Michael Vick lobbies for law to protect animals in hot cars
Pittsburgh Steelers quarterback visits Harrisburg to push House Bill 1516



http://www.wtae.com/news/i-know-that-im-an-unlikely-advocate-vick-to-lobby-for-animal-welfare-law/36845636
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 9, 2015 - 06:58am PT
John posted
If, however, we had a firearm registry, we could trace how perpetrators obtained their weapons. This would help us close loopholes, and prosecute those who helped obtain firearms for those prohibited from their possession.

Beyond that, I think we kid ourselves. We aren't Australia or Europe, that lacks a long history of armed citizenry. We need to look at the possibilities realistically, rather than theoretically.

Australia actually has widespread personal gun ownership. What they don't have is a culture that worships them.

As I've stated previously, the first step needs to be something along the lines of mandatory registration with a background check with the burden on the seller to make sure that is completed. If it isn't or if you lend out a gun to someone you are responsible for what is done with that weapon.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 9, 2015 - 08:06am PT
As I've stated previously, the first step needs to be something along the lines of mandatory registration with a background check with the burden on the seller to make sure that is completed. If it isn't or if you lend out a gun to someone you are responsible for what is done with that weapon.

Apparently you're not familiar with existing laws.
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Dec 9, 2015 - 08:08am PT
Consider:

The U.S. surgeon general, Dr. Vivek Murthy, has famously suggested that guns are a public health risk. But the real risk isn't guns alone -- it's the combination of guns with mental illness or with political or religious extremism.

Full
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/12/06/opinions/potarazu-zuckerberg-big-data-gun-violence/index.html

I know I know CNN...
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 9, 2015 - 08:14am PT
Reilly posted
Apparently you're not familiar with existing laws.

There's a national law requiring gun registration and background checks anytime a gun changes hands? Do link!
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 9, 2015 - 08:40am PT
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan

Dec 9, 2015 - 06:36am PT
"Laws don't change willful human behavior. They never have and never will..."

Seriously?

DMT

Priceless....

Some of the "strictest laws" in the nation ARE in this neighborhood.


[Click to View YouTube Video]

BTW, the TEC9 in the video, totally ILLEGAL, period!


And this "Grease Pistol" toter...

[Click to View YouTube Video]
zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 9, 2015 - 09:50am PT
Some of the "strictest laws" in the nation ARE in this neighborhood.


Must not be strict enough or supportably enforceable.

The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 9, 2015 - 09:53am PT
zBrown

Ice climber

Dec 9, 2015 - 09:50am PT
-"Some of the "strictest laws" in the nation ARE in this neighborhood."-


Must not be strict enough or supportably enforceable.

"Seriously?"



fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 9, 2015 - 10:01am PT
Education and truth, not laws, is what what moves societies truly forward.

They recently passed more "gun laws" in CT. If you actually read the text of these "laws" you'll laugh. They're indecipherable and absurd. We had groups of highly compensated lawyers trying to interpret what they even really said.

We have enough laws, too many actually already, that cover the basic guidelines of civilized society. Adding more and more does nothing.

The constitution of this country was designed as a framework for a free country. Freedom does not guarantee "safety" and often runs contrary to it.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 9, 2015 - 10:33am PT
I heard poorly made rap videos are good sources for public policy research true/false.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Dec 9, 2015 - 10:54am PT
(raises hand) True. in the world of the Chief
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 9, 2015 - 11:00am PT
Not to to boldly mention auto deaths have been on a steady decline annually.

Firearm homicides have fallen sharply from their peak in 1993 as well.

Firearm homicides since 2009 remain at lower levels (Source: FBI):

Expanded Homicide Data Table 8
Murder Victims
by Weapon, 2009–2013

Weapons..........................2009 2010 2011 2012 2013
Total .........................13,752 13,164 12,795 12,888 12,253
Total firearms: ................9,199 8,874 8,653 8,897 8,454
Handguns........................6,501 6,115 6,251 6,404 5,782
Rifles............................351 367 332 298 285
Shotguns..........................423 366 362 310 308
Other guns ........................96 93 97 116 123
Firearms, type not stated.......1,828 1,933 1,611 1,769 1,956
Knives or cutting instruments...1,836 1,732 1,716 1,604 1,490
Blunt objects (clubs, hammers,....623 549 502 522 428
etc.)
Personal weapons (hands, fists,...817 769 751 707 687
feet, pushed, etc.)
Poison..............................7 11 5 13 11
Explosives..........................2 4 6 8 2
Fire...............................98 78 76 87 94
Narcotics..........................52 45 33 38 53
Drowning............................8 10 15 14 4
Strangulation.....................122 122 88 90 85
Asphyxiation.......................84 98 92 106 95
Other weapons or not stated.......904 872 858 802 850

I'm having trouble getting this to line up, so I apologize for any difficulty in reading these. Interestingly, explosives seem to be the least frequent cause of homocide in the years in question. These obviously don't include the Oklahoma City bombing or, e.g., the World Trade Center and Pentagon suicide flights.

John
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Dec 9, 2015 - 11:45am PT
nice bit of satire:

http://www.landoverbaptist.net/index.php/2015/11/27/mississippi-man-sticks-it-to-big-government-and-gun-grabbers-shoots-waitress/
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 9, 2015 - 12:07pm PT
patrick compton

Trad climber
van

Dec 9, 2015 - 10:54am PT
(raises hand) True. in the world of the Chief

So says the Hypocrite that just purchased an UNREGISTERED "Handgun" because he lives in a, here it comes, "... sketchy area of town.".


Priceless.


PS: "What's in your world, compton?"
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Dec 9, 2015 - 01:07pm PT
I live the world of white privilege.

I already stated that there is little difference between how I bought a gun and buying one on the street.

and I've said it is silly that I can own a gun. legally, without any authority knowing that I do.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 9, 2015 - 01:21pm PT
I live the world of white privilege.

I already stated that there is little difference between how I bought a gun and buying one on the street.

and I've said it is silly that I can own a gun. legally, without any authority knowing that I do.

I'm confused. You purchased a firearm 'legally' (I'm assuming) and you think it's foolish for you to own one? Then you regret that there is no governmental bureaucracy wasting yet more money and time having paperwork that you own it?

Keep in mind our same government dumps plane loads of real weapons and explosives into war-torn areas of the globe to support 'rebels'. But them having the knowledge that you own a handgun helps who?

Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 9, 2015 - 02:22pm PT
im guilty! I'm a warrior for the babies

Pretty much ends the discussion on motive for the Colorado planned parenthood shootings.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 9, 2015 - 02:55pm PT
Oh my God... what a Fear Mongering Islamaphobic leader this dood was.

During the 1980 hostage crisis, then-President Jimmy Carter issued a series of executive orders to tighten the screws on the government of Iran – among them were banning Iranians from entering the United States, FrontPageMag first reported.

Here are Carter’s comments upon making the action.

"The Secretary of Treasury and the Attorney General will invalidate all visas issued to Iranian citizens for future entry into the United States, effective today. We will not reissue visas, nor will we issue new visas, except for compelling and proven humanitarian reasons or where the national interest of our own country requires. This directive will be interpreted very strictly."

Can you only imagine the outcry from the Liberal Brigade in this nation today if this was done now?

Did I say Liberal? Holeeee Sheeeet. The doood that mandated this was/is a ... COMPASSIONATE LIBERAL!

Priceless.
monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 9, 2015 - 03:12pm PT
Iranian citizens, Chiefy, as part of sanctions against a state for the hostage crisis.

Not at all like Trump wanting to stop all Muslims from any country from entering the US.

Do you get that, Chiefy?
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 9, 2015 - 03:18pm PT
And the difference is... Mono?


BTW, how many Americans were beheaded/killed during the Hostage Crises? How many Iranian Terrorists carried out any attacks on US soil during that period?


You're an Idiot Mono. But figures that you would find a logical excuse for one of your Liberal heroes to do then what should be done today.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 9, 2015 - 03:21pm PT
And your projectile vomiting complete bullshet outta your mouth and nose again, Mono.

Priceless.



Oh yeah...


Carter ordered the immediate deportation of all Iranian Students During Hostage Crisis.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Dec 9, 2015 - 03:34pm PT
im guilty! I'm a warrior for the babies
Pretty much ends the discussion on motive for the Colorado planned parenthood shootings.

Good point Lorenzo.
Whenever a defendant in a criminal case says something, we should all immediately accept that statement as the 100% unvarnished truth and not spend a second considering whether anything else may be at play.

Please send a letter to the judge explaining that there's no reason for a competency hearing or anything else in this case; you'll save Colorado taxpayers some money.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 9, 2015 - 05:33pm PT
Haha, well, he's got the same attorney Robert Holmes had, so maybe the guy will do better this time.


Insane or not, incompetent or not, he has a declared motive. He didn't turn right thinking he was heading into the bank next door.

So he's a crazy terrorist, if you wish.


Be sure and let us know how that hearing plays out.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 9, 2015 - 05:45pm PT
Trump is right. The problem countries for terroristic threat are almost universally Muslim dominate. If you have an ineffective system for identifying the Warriors from the peaceful you must shut the door till you figure it out. Let's call it for what it is; we have a problem with muslims. The majority of the u.s. populace are practical and believe this regardless of the attacks from the loony left. Trump scores, the establishment loses.
Gary

Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
Dec 9, 2015 - 05:48pm PT
And the difference is... Mono?

The difference is Carter was denying citizens of a certain country entry, Trump wants to deny entry based on religion.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 9, 2015 - 05:51pm PT
Goddamn you Gary. Your a Trumpkin-the Cranksore has spoken.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 9, 2015 - 05:55pm PT
The difference is Carter was denying citizens of a certain country entry, Trump wants to deny entry based on religion.

Ah, where did I ever mention TRUMP in my original post, GARY???


Hint... no where. Nor was he even a thought.


This is what I am referring to....



In other words GARY, the Syrian Refugees that the POTUS keeps telling us to allow into this country even AFTER the latest ATTACK in the San Bernadino where the current "Vetting" process is clearly shown to be flawed. Terribly flawed and obviously a complete failure.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 9, 2015 - 06:01pm PT
The latest news states that BOTH were "Radicalized Jihadist" long before they even met and got married according to the FBI's intensive investigation of their computers.


And, Tashfeen Malik was completely "thoroughly" vetted by the State Dept prior to being allowed a visa to enter this country.

“With respect to the San Bernardino case, yes indeed that was a fiancé visa, which is a type of visa issued to a fiancé of a U.S. citizen for the purpose of coming to the United States to get married within 90 days and I can confirm, as the department already has, that all applicable security checks were done for that individual, Ms. [Tashfeen] Malik,” Edward Ramotowski, the State Department’s deputy assistant secretary for visa services, testified before the Senate panel.












Jimmy Carter BANS ALL Iranians from entering this country and also IMMEDIATELY DEPORTS all Iranian Students during the Iranian conflict. All during which not ONE attack was committed here in the US nor was any American killed by the Iranians.

BUT the current POTUS wants to go ahead and bring over 25K Syrian Refugees into this country.

Priceless.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 9, 2015 - 06:06pm PT
Though I prefer Cruz at this point, I would vote for Trump gladly over the geriatric gas bags the left has mustered. Besides being proactive on national security, we might well need his bankruptcy experience when the service on the debt becomes unmanageable.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 9, 2015 - 06:18pm PT
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired Climber
Dec 9, 2015 - 06:23pm PT
That tashfeen was one ugly bitch.


Though I prefer Cruz at this point

Dude, Cruz associates with homophobes that think gays should be killed.
Do you think gays should be killed?
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 9, 2015 - 06:25pm PT
Damn ISLAMOPHOBES!!!



rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 9, 2015 - 06:27pm PT
Are you a homo 10b?

Cranksore, your confused and lacking reading comprehension besides being a dedicated dem hack.

10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired Climber
Dec 9, 2015 - 06:31pm PT
I am not "a homo" , but I have friends who are what does that have to do with anything?
Answer the question, Rick. Do you support the killing of gays?
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 9, 2015 - 06:40pm PT
Do I sound like a Muslim 10b?

I've had family members (an aunt and a cousin) that were different. Though the queer population is tiny (less than 3% by some accounts) they are being used by the anarchists to make a lot of noise to drum up phony division. Certainly you can see this 10b.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 9, 2015 - 06:42pm PT
You are comprehensionally challenged cranksore.

Tell us your name and maybe we can help you out with your obvious deficiencies.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 9, 2015 - 06:46pm PT
Golf course?



d-know

Trad climber
electric lady land
Dec 9, 2015 - 06:47pm PT
More proof.
Just duh chief
not The.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 9, 2015 - 06:55pm PT

And was completed "VETTED" by INS, FBI, DHS etc.









d-know

Trad climber
electric lady land
Dec 9, 2015 - 07:02pm PT
Duh chief.

Post more memes,
It makes it
look like
you think you're
winning at
something.
Jorroh

climber
Dec 9, 2015 - 07:02pm PT
Nice, Sumner and The Chief.

Who doesn't love the Cletus and Jethro show.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 9, 2015 - 07:12pm PT




SIMPLE ANSWER.. NO!






And, they too were completed "VETTED" by the FBI, INS, DHS etc.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 9, 2015 - 07:15pm PT
Well thanks guys. Your compliments and condemnations are all appreciated. Glad I can be of assistance in getting the loons all hot and bothered.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 9, 2015 - 07:21pm PT
RyanD

climber
Dec 9, 2015 - 07:43pm PT
Just wait until you are begging Putin for refugee status once all your neighbours are Muslim the chief

Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 9, 2015 - 07:43pm PT
Soooo, since this looks like a big right-wing night on this thread-----I thought it would amuse you folks to learn I shared the below Christmas card & message with Heidi & her sister, who is an Idaho Judge.

Not your ordinary Christmas card.

Nevada Assemblywoman Michele Fiore's (R) 2015 family Christmas card, which she posted on Facebook on Monday.
"It's up to Americans to protect America. We're just your ordinary American family. -With love & liberty, Michele," her message read. Fiore lost her position as majority leader and taxation committee chair in The Nevada Assembly in December 2014, after reports that the IRS had filed hundreds of thousands of dollars in tax liens against her in the last decade.


So------ Heidi & I were in Boise yesterday and I dropped off Heidi at her sister's house, and noticed the new cardboard box that said "Bushmaster."

Damn, if my email & the Christmas card didn't prompt Heidi's sister into going to a gun store with a cop-friend, and buying an assault weapon.

I've thought about buying one of those paranoid-users P.O.S. kill people weapons over the years, but I just hate the heavy and cold feel of them.

Maybe a SKS?

It's looking like American right-wing paranoia is winning.

Not a victory, it is a defeat for the human-race.
zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 9, 2015 - 07:49pm PT
This was due for the old guys getting in shape thread, but why not here.

Keep your hands outa your pants fellas.


Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 9, 2015 - 08:00pm PT
What stands out in the family Christmas Card is even the five-year-old demonstrates better trigger-finger discipline than anyone in any Quentin Tarentino movie.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 9, 2015 - 08:19pm PT
I must admit I took quite the group of friends from work to the range today for a little pumpkin carnage in the kill house. Present were a Jew, a Jamaican guy who wears a cross, and THREE Muslim (although one eats bacon in secret). So I think I had some kind of Trinity of three different imaginary friends all represented there.

I'm sure there's more than a few jokes in this scenario.

The good news is everyone made it home and as of yet nobody has gone on a rampage and I expect to see them back at work tomorrow. No pumpkins survived.

It's all spin. Neither guns nor religion make anyone do anything.

The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 9, 2015 - 08:20pm PT

d-know

Trad climber
electric lady land
Dec 9, 2015 - 08:22pm PT
Just duh
not The.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 9, 2015 - 08:24pm PT
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 9, 2015 - 08:26pm PT
Problem with the refugees isn't their religion IMO, it's more the fact that we don't need thousands more of state dependent human trash in this country. We have enough home grown human parasites.

Now the skilled ones who will work and produce... that we need. But the government fears people who can think so importing dependent problems makes a lot of sense for them in a twisted way.

Of course the real solution is for our criminal cabal of a government to stop carpet bombing foreign lands and supporting proxy armies of real sociopaths.


Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 9, 2015 - 08:30pm PT
If we got rid of the homegrown Human parasites, Who would be climbing in the valley?
d-know

Trad climber
electric lady land
Dec 9, 2015 - 08:30pm PT
Don't matter what
you say or post,
duh.

Your word is shet.

Like the Donald of s.t.
Jorroh

climber
Dec 9, 2015 - 08:35pm PT
"government fears people who can think"

I'm sure they're really scared of a deep thinker like you Fear.

We all thank you for taking time out from your busy schedule of deciding who is and isn't "Human Trash" to regale us with your wisdom.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 9, 2015 - 08:37pm PT
If we got rid of the homegrown Human parasites, Who would be climbing in the valley?

The human parasites I refer to don't climb much because of well, physics and sh#t.

Good point though
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 9, 2015 - 08:45pm PT



NOT ONCE... But TWICE in one YEAR!
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 9, 2015 - 10:42pm PT
The reason there was no word about Lil Chuffies Polish Protest in the European madia was because it did't happen. Just another steaming coiler of BS as usual from Lil soft target.

What did happen however is this...

Polish Muslims Hold Protests against Racism, Terrorism
News ID: 930857 Service: World
November, 30, 2015 - 12:34
تظاهرات مسلمان‌ها در لهستان
TEHRAN (Tasnim) – Hundreds of people protested in the Polish city of Poznan against terrorism and racism, in one of the first such demonstrations called by Muslim leaders in the overwhelmingly Catholic country.

Around 300 demonstrators gathered on Sunday in the centre of the western city carrying banners reading "Muslims against terrorism" and "Stop racism."

Poland, where 90 percent of the 38 million population is Catholic, is estimated to have around 15,000 to 25,000 Muslims.

"We condemn all forms of terrorism and we express our solidarity with the French people and all victims of terrorist attacks around the world," said Youssef Chadid, the imam of Poznan who organized the rally, AFP reported.



Poznan, Poland, whose historic Old Market Square is pictured December 6, 2008, was the scene of one of the overwhelmingly Catholic country's first-ever mass public demonstrations by Muslims on November 29, 2015 (AFP Photo/Joe Klamar)

He said some Polish people were "very racist" and thought all Muslims were terrorists.

"So we are protesting today against terrorism and racism," he said.

Poland's new conservative government has taken a tough stance on Europe's migrant crisis, refusing to take in refugees under the EU's redistribution programme.

Incoming foreign minister Witold Waszczykowski said earlier this month that Europe needed to "approach in a different fashion the Muslim community living in Europe which hates this continent and wishes to destroy it."
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 9, 2015 - 11:13pm PT
Philo...

...it didn't happen.


OK. Then WTF are these thousands of Poles screaming and protesting all over Warsaw, Poland on the 11th of Nov of this year?

GUN CONTROL?

Ah, NOT.....

Nationalism, as in anti-European Union and anti-globalism, is sweeping through Eastern Europe and in no place is it catching fire faster than Poland.

Upwards of 50,000 Poles were reported out in the streets Wednesday evening, marching with flags and slogans like “Stop Islamization” and “Great Catholic Poland” on the anniversary of Poland’s return to independence after World War I.

http://www.wnd.com/2015/11/eu-flag-burned-as-thousands-protest-migrants/#Vi193HeCjteX0lPv.99



[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]





Priceless Philo...utterly Priceless.



philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 9, 2015 - 11:21pm PT
Hey WingNut it was Poland's independence day.

Report Advertisement
Fact Check Fauxtography Politics
Poles' Position
Nationalists marched on Poland's independence day (11 November 2015), but the demonstrations weren't ignored by the media in Europe.
Kim LaCapria
Kim LaCapria
Nov 24, 2015
SHARE

3.7K
poles march poland

CLAIM: Massive anti-immigrant demonstrations in Poland were ignored by the mainstream media in Europe.

MIXTURE
WHAT'S TRUE: On 11 November 2015, nationalists in Poland marched to protest immigration and mark the country's independence day.

WHAT'S FALSE: The news media in Europe buried the story.

EXAMPLE: [Collected via Reddit and e-mail, November 2015]

Massive Polish protest against migrant invasion, not one report in the MSM
polish march refugees

ORIGINS: Ongoing global debate about the 2015 Syrian refugee crisis escalated sharply following the 13 November 2015 Paris attacks; one manner by which misinformation consistently spread both before and after that event involved barriers of language and media between Europe and the United States.

On or around 17 November 2015 American social media users began spreading the image reproduced above, claiming that a massive anti-refugee march occurred in Poland and the "MSM" (mainstream media) in Europe colluded to cover the story up. Many inferred that the march was a response to the Paris attacks of 13 November 2015, surmising Poles were simply fed up with refugees and took to the streets in response to the tragedy in France:


The article linked was published by the Gateway Pundit on 23 November 2015 (titled "VIDEO=> Over 100,000 Polish Patriots March in Warsaw Against Islamic Invasion"), and it stated:

Hundreds of candles were lit at the French Embassy in Warsaw following the ISIS Paris massacre.

The article included embedded tweets dating back as far as 12 November 2015, but its body text left the implicit impression that the depicted marches were a reaction to the Paris attacks (as did a number of other tweets):


The march in question did occur, but it took place on 11 November 2015 (two days prior to the attack on Paris). No one marching in the demonstrations was riled up about those events. The web site Breitbart (which has advanced a number of anti-refugee claims) reported on 12 November 2015 that:

Tens of thousands of Polish nationalists descended on Warsaw, Poland yesterday to mark the nation’s independence day. Demonstrators burned the European Union (EU) flag and banners on display compared EU membership to Soviet occupation.

The event, which saw attendance from Hungary’s genuine Neo-Nazi, far right Jobbik Party, passed off completely peacefully with only one arrested made. Pictures from the rally show the blurring of lines between Poland’s nationalists and Hungary’s Neo-Nazis, with one protester even offering a Nazi salute during the event (below).

Social media claims about the marches in Poland further held that the events were ignored or purposely covered up by Europe's mainstream media. That was easily proved false, as Britain's Telegraph ("EU flag burned as tens of thousands join Warsaw nationalist demo"), Russia's RT ("'Communists will be hanging': Nationalist march commemorates Poland's Independence Day"), Financial Times ("Polish nationalists rail against Brussels in show of strength"), Radio Poland ("Poland commemorates Independence Day"), Bloomberg ("Thousands March on Independence Day as Police Converge on Warsaw"), Britain's Express ("EU flag burned as thousands join nationalist march in Poland"), and U.S. News and World Report ("Polish extreme nationalists hold large anti-migrant march on Independence Day") all covered the rally on or around 11 November 2015. (As did independent social media accounts.)

The Telegraph reported:

God, honour, homeland," chanted the protesters as they marched under a sea of red-and-white Polish flags.

Demonstrators trampled and burned a European Union flag at one point, while a banner added to the anti-EU theme with the slogan "EU macht frei" ("Work makes you free" in German), a reference to the slogan over the gates at Auschwitz.

"Yesterday it was Moscow, today it's Brussels which takes away our freedom," chanted one group of protesters.

It's true that Polish nationalists engaged in anti-refugee protests on 11 November 2015 in Warsaw. However, those demonstrations occurred two days prior to the Paris attacks, and were widely covered by both European and American news sources.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 9, 2015 - 11:27pm PT

Dec 9, 2015 - 08:37pm PT

The human parasites I refer to don't climb much because of well, physics and sh#t.

Good point though

And are you against all state dependent human trash?

Because....well... Myself and a bunch of others here on the taco technically fall in that class.

Mitt Romney was a little kinder, though. He called us part of the 47% of the populace bleeding the country dry with our incessant demands for our SS and Medicare rights.

Different culture, I guess. Here in Portland, aka little Beirut, they call us honored citizens.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 9, 2015 - 11:27pm PT
Seriously Philo... that lightning really did fry your brain.


[Click to View YouTube Video]


[Click to View YouTube Video]



[Click to View YouTube Video]




philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2015 - 12:03am PT
Again it was Poland's Independence Day celebration and it happened two days before the attacks in Paris. There were all manner of parades, protests and rallys. There was even an anti-muslim mob that burned Jewish effigies of all things. Seems thier knuckle draggers are just as stupid as ours, Don't conflate a part for the whole.


HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 10, 2015 - 04:55am PT
fear posted
Problem with the refugees isn't their religion IMO, it's more the fact that we don't need thousands more of state dependent human trash in this country. We have enough home grown human parasites.

Thank you for making your thoughts clear on this issue. It saves us a lot of time trying to figure out if you are a decent person who has been watching too much cable news or just a really terrible person.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Dec 10, 2015 - 06:37am PT
Fear sells. The righties here probably own stock.

The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 10, 2015 - 06:40am PT
philo

climber

Topic Author's Reply - Dec 9, 2015 - 10:42pm PT


News ID: 930857 Service: World
November, 30, 2015 - 12:34
تظاهرات مسلمان‌ها در لهستان
TEHRAN (Tasnim) – Hundreds of people protested in the Polish city of Poznan against terrorism and racism, in one of the first such demonstrations called by Muslim leaders in the overwhelmingly Catholic country......



Amazing!!!

Philo posts the Iranian National News Media as his initial source to dispute the fact of the National Protest in Poland on Nov 12, 2015 where the primary theme for the march of 50K plus Poles in Warsaw alone was against "Isamisation" & Independence from the EU and it's ongoing mandates to allow Syrian Muslim Refugees, "Isamisation", into the Union Nations that includes, Poland.

Philo certainly is not aware that the Iranian News agency he posted as his source to counter the event that occurred in Poland last month, has repeatedly over the past three decades, published reports/articles that concurred with, the current and past Presidents of Iran's ongoing claims that the "Holocaust" NEVER happened. That it was all fabricated by the State of Israel and all the Jews throughout the world to inspire the people the world to feel sorry for them and bring them to the side of Israel.

Priceless Philo. Simply Priceless.

Philo.... Desperately keeping the Light of total "Loooonacy" on and going!
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Dec 10, 2015 - 06:53am PT
The Chief...Stellar Brew in Mammoth is donating proceeds to purchase clothing for syrian refugees if you're in the area...? rj
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 10, 2015 - 06:54am PT
The Chief...Stellar Brew in Mammoth is donating proceeds to purchase clothing for syrian refugees if you're in the area...? rj

Yup... they are all going to move into the McGee Creek Lodge and the BLM Campground right up the road from your current location.





Hey Crackaloon

Certainly appears that JIMMY CARTER was thoroughly "Radicalized" as well when he BANNED ALL Iranians from entering this country and also IMMEDIATELY DEPORTED all Iranian Students during the Iranian conflict. All during which not ONE attack was committed here in the US nor was any American killed by the Iranians.



Radicalized? Me? Ah, no. These individuals that MURDERED 14 Americans a week and half ago were "Radicalized".


The latest news states that BOTH were "Radicalized Jihadist" long before they even met and got married according to the FBI's intensive investigation of their computers.


And, Tashfeen Malik was completely "thoroughly" vetted by the State Dept prior to being allowed a visa to enter this country.

“With respect to the San Bernardino case, yes indeed that was a fiancé visa, which is a type of visa issued to a fiancé of a U.S. citizen for the purpose of coming to the United States to get married within 90 days and I can confirm, as the department already has, that all applicable security checks were done for that individual, Ms. [Tashfeen] Malik,” Edward Ramotowski, the State Department’s deputy assistant secretary for visa services, testified before the Senate panel.












Priceless.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 10, 2015 - 07:00am PT
Crankalooonster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe

Dec 10, 2015 - 06:56am PT
Your day of reckoning: November 8, 2016. The day American voters send your bigotry into the trash heap of history.

Why do we have to wait a whole year Crankaloonstar for that supposed day of reckoning?

What's wrong with the current Dem Liberal POTUS. Must be too much of a... "PUSSY" huh?
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 10, 2015 - 07:09am PT
Answer the Question Crankaloon....


Why do we have to wait a whole year for this supposed day of reckoning you speak of?

Your day of reckoning: November 8, 2016. The day American voters send your bigotry into the trash heap of history.

What's wrong with the current Dem Liberal POTUS. Must be too much of a... "PUSSY" huh?
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Dec 10, 2015 - 07:26am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]


Crankloon keep bumping ur BS
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Dec 10, 2015 - 07:33am PT
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 10, 2015 - 07:35am PT
Hermit: If you read actual information instead of political cartoons you would find ample discussion over the last 2 decades about the increased risk for conflict and extremism as a result of climate change. Don't trust Obama, go read the actual sources.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2015 - 07:39am PT
Aw lil chieffie the soft target Spouting off again.
Always making comparisons between Apples and Chlamydia.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 10, 2015 - 07:52am PT
Once Farook left the country, he should have never been let back in.

His story was he went to Pakistan to find a wife. He left California to look for a woman? And this is what he brings back? To California? And the Customs guys bought it?

It's like he said he went Pakistan to go get Mexican food - and brings back a sack of moldy tamales. To California. And Customs buys the story.
"Moldy tamales? That's plausible. Those are better than anything you can get in California. Welcome home, Seeyed."

The Customs people don't care. Why would they? Pay's the same whether they are on top of things or not. May as well just do nothing, and run out the clock to retirement.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 10, 2015 - 07:55am PT
Chaz, you do realize that people are not subject to customs and that American citizens can go wherever they want to find wives, right? I mean are you seriously advocating that the US government begin impounding the fiances of US citizens in warehouses based on whatever bias a random bureaucrat has? Aren't you the guy who is always yelling "are constitution!!!"
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Dec 10, 2015 - 08:00am PT
I'm confused. You purchased a firearm 'legally' (I'm assuming) and you think it's foolish for you to own one? Then you regret that there is no governmental bureaucracy wasting yet more money and time having paperwork that you own it?

Keep in mind our same government dumps plane loads of real weapons and explosives into war-torn areas of the globe to support 'rebels'. But them having the knowledge that you own a handgun helps who?

yes, legally. But what is 'legal' if there is no record of the purchase, privately or through the government?

No, I like owning it, more like, it is foolish that I can without any oversight at all (registration, insurance, etc).

No, it is really fine with me, saves hassle and money. But, I can see why civilized counties laugh and feel sorry for a country ruled by their hallowed '2nd amendment.'

Fair point.
overwatch

climber
Dec 10, 2015 - 08:08am PT
FAROOOOK!!!!!!
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 10, 2015 - 08:10am PT
Priceless Philo. Simply Priceless.

Philo.... Desperately keeping the Light of total "Cranka-Loooonacy" on and going!


Keep referring to News Agencies from Tehran, Iran to back up your retorts, Philo.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired Climber
Dec 10, 2015 - 08:15am PT

Dec 10, 2015 - 06:56am PT
Your day of reckoning: November 8, 2016. The day President Clinton and VP Trump. .

Fixed it for you, crankloon

A smart man like you should have known.

The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 10, 2015 - 08:17am PT
patrick compton

Trad climber
van

Dec 10, 2015 - 08:00am PT

No, I like owning it, more like, it is foolish that I can without any oversight at all (registration, insurance, etc).

No, it is really fine with me, saves hassle and money for me. But, I can see why civilized counties laugh and feel sorry for a country ruled by their hallowed '2nd amendment.

So let us get this right. You go out and purchase a weapon in order to see how "shallow" the bureaucracy of the government is in order to attain one in your State all to prove a point.

But then after receiving it and taking it home, you realized that it just may be a good wise idea to practice your "hallowed" 2nd Amendment right that has been in place for well over 240 years because you chose to live in a "sketchy part of town" and could one day utilize the protection it may afford you.


Go figure Compton. Just go figure.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Dec 10, 2015 - 08:44am PT
My weapon purchase has nothing to do with proving anything to anyone, certianly not on ST or the state gubnant.

and yes, I practice shooting it, that is kinda the point. What is your point?

I'm not like you ammosexuals, who define yourselves through the caliber of your guns, to offset the falling testosterone levels.

Climbing at a grade I want to do, and running a distance I like means a lot more to me than my gun collection of a single gun.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2015 - 08:54am PT
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Dec 10, 2015 - 08:56am PT
^ ahh the irony of 'evolution'

guy should be practicing with an AR. When the zombies attack, they are going after that FUPA first!
RyanD

climber
Dec 10, 2015 - 09:04am PT
i laughed pretty hard when I was on a rest day in Bishop once and was headed to town and my friend asked me to pick up some bullets for him for rest day entertainment. I thought he was joking because well, I was a visitor from another country, I can't just go walk into a store and buy bullets!! I can't even do that in my own country!

But he said it was fine.

i thought he was messing with me, but when I got to town I gave it a shot anyways(no pun intended), the guy in the store grabbed the bullets and asked to see my license. The best was that he thought British Columbia was in the UK. No problems otherwise. I couldn't believe how easy it was. I almost went back in to see if I could buy a gun.

Then I went to Von's and bought a bunch of pumpkins that were on sale since it was Nov 1 and we proceeded to simulate the war on terror in the Sierra foothills all afternoon. Definitely one of the more "American" days I've had. It was a blast(no pun intended) but I couldn't help but think that it was super sketchy how pretty much anyone could buy bullets. I would not want that to be an option where I live.

The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 10, 2015 - 09:15am PT
but I couldn't help but think that it was super sketchy how pretty much anyone could buy bullets.

Yup... pretty scary to realize that you live a society up in Canada where you are CONTROLLED by your Gov't and do not have the FREEDOMS afforded to you that we down here in the US, have.

Probably why all those "Muslims" from Islamic Sharia Law governed nations are doing all they can to come here. To the US that is.

Priceless.

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 10, 2015 - 09:21am PT
When people equate the ability to impulse buy bullets with "freedom" but cannot easily afford healthcare, education or retirement I'm pretty sure "government control" isn't the problem. I mean that basically sounds like the plot for a oligarchical shadow government movie.
RyanD

climber
Dec 10, 2015 - 09:22am PT
Yes the chief.

I have no freedom.

Even the gun nuts in Canada aren't frothing like you for less regulations.

If that is what you are frothing about?

It's really hard to tell with all the froth.


Edit- Jeremy, this has happened to me in Utah as well. Must be my accent.
zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 10, 2015 - 09:31am PT


Can we get an Amen for some self-deportation to Gunland?

I'm checking for the coordinates right now. Walt Disney was no help.

The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 10, 2015 - 09:58am PT
Can we get an Amen for some self-deportation to Gunland?

Yup... here they come. Doing everything in their power to get to horror fested Gunland.


Even the POTUS is doing his best in helping them.





What in God's name drives them all to want to come to such a fked up "Gunland" country such as the US?

Huh Brown, Ryan D etal. What?

Must be all the murdering by white fanatical gun owners and cops here. Makes them feel right at home from the land they fled from.



Oh, did I mention the already 10.5 MILLION Illegal Immigrants from south of the border over just the past decade that have fought tooth and nail not to only to get here. But so illogically, to REMAIN HERE!


Priceless Brown. Priceless.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 10, 2015 - 10:07am PT
Don't worry, Chief. Once they see the quality of your posting I'm sure they'll get right back on the boat.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 10, 2015 - 10:08am PT
Yup HDDJ... must be all them guns I own. More than the Knives & Swords that were decapitating them and their families back in their homeland.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Dec 10, 2015 - 10:10am PT
how many guns do you own?

do you get like one cc boost of testosterone per gun? or is it per bullet?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 10, 2015 - 10:23am PT
Chief posted
Yup HDDJ... must be all them guns I own.

Nope. Syrians are probably used to guns and they are running away from being bombed and shelled on a regular basis. Your posting, on the other hand, is an atrocity that they have not been exposed to.
RyanD

climber
Dec 10, 2015 - 10:28am PT
Yup... pretty scary to realize that you live a society up in Canada where you are CONTROLLED by your Gov't and do not have the FREEDOMS afforded to you that we down here in the US, have.

Probably why all those "Muslims" from Islamic Sharia Law governed nations are doing all they can to come here. To the US that is.

Priceless.


Bahahaha. No the chief.

According to you They are comin to US because they are gonna jihad, funny thing is if this is true then it's real easy for them to buy bullets and shoot you in your front yard under the laws of 'FREEDOM" that you also support..

I have the freedom to buy a gun and bullets if i like. But i will need to show that i am accountable enough to use them responsibly. This is where you obviously know nothing about my country & show a huge lack of common sense.

I would have to show them i'm not a Stupid fuk like you the chief, frothing with blind ignorance.

My guess is you probably wouldn't be able to get anywhere near a gun in Canada, even if you were a citizen here, you are nowhere near stable enough to even fill out the application.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2015 - 10:32am PT
Like I've said before Lil Chuffie is the Donald Trump of ST.
He thinks his soooo big and soooo right but he's really small and wrong.
But loud very very loud.
overwatch

climber
Dec 10, 2015 - 10:34am PT
That guy with the epic gut...that has to be photoshop, yeah?

Edit;
Friggin horrid! He looks so happy with himself
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Dec 10, 2015 - 10:45am PT
don't think so.

concealed carry:

[Click to View YouTube Video]
jonnyrig

climber
Dec 10, 2015 - 10:52am PT
Why the hell would anyone bother to come here legally, when all they really need to do is make it to Canada or Mexico, then walk across the border with the rest of em?
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2015 - 11:18am PT
Muslim Community Raises $110,000 To Donate To San Bernardino Families
ACTIVISM · LIFE · NEWS
December 9, 2015 by Amanda Froelich

Over $110,000 has been raised by American Muslims to help families of the San Bernardino, California shooting victims.

Presidential candidate Donald Trump may be promoting Islamophobia every time he opens his mouth, but Muslim communities around the world – and especially in the United States – are not letting this deter how they live their lives or assist those in need.

GoodNewsNetwork reports that tens of thousands of dollars are being donated by American Muslims to help families of the San Bernardino, California shooting victims.

Said Faisal Qazi, who set up a fundraising campaign after the man and woman responsible for the senseless killing of strangers turned out to be Islamic radicals (even though multiple witnesses are adamant three tall, white males are responsible):

“We wish to respond to evil with good, as our faith instructs us, and send a powerful message of compassion through action.”

The campaign, “Muslims United for San Bernardino Families” quickly surpassed its goal and has raised more than $110,000 since December 3rd!

It is now the hottest trending page on Launch Good, a Muslim-focused crowdfunding site.



Qazi first wanted the funds to help families with short-term expenses, including funeral arrangements, but now hopes the money exceeding the goal can also assist with long-term costs.

Once word spread of the campaign, it jumped $58,000 in one day! No doubt, with 21 days left to fundraise, more will be raised.

Tarek El-Messidi, CelebrateMercy Founding Director, added his thoughts to the campaign:

“The Prophet Muhammad said that "even a person of little faith will remove a harmful object from the road". Contrast that with extremists like ISIS who are blowing up roads and killing civilians. This united American Muslim campaign aims to reclaim our faith from extremists by responding to evil with good, by rebuilding what they destroy. We know that no amount of money will bring back loved ones of the victims’ families, but we hope that it at least alleviates some financial burdens in the wake of this horrible tragedy.”

All the money raised with be given to MiNDS (Medical Network Devoted to Service), a community development center in Southern California that has set up a Victims Fund for families of the shooting victims.

This article (Muslim Community Raises $110,000 To Donate To San Bernardino Families) is free and open source. You have permission to republish this article under a Creative Commons license with attribution to the author and TrueActivist.com
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 10, 2015 - 11:29am PT
My guess is you probably wouldn't be able to get anywhere near a gun in Canada, even if you were a citizen here, you are nowhere near stable enough to even fill out the application.

Of course your tribal masters here, Philo, Crankaloonstart, etal, they would have absolutely no problems what so ever doing so up there in, BC.

Got it.

PS: Story of your life Ryan.... "Guessing" and all.



And HDDJ, the fact that the Sunni ISIS has been slaughtering tens of thousands of Syrian Shia's the past 5 or so years in Syria, that has absolutely NOTHING to do with their running from their homeland by the tens of thousands to go to Europe and come to America. Nothing.

Oh, my Bad. The fact that they are Shia and that they and Sunni have been slaughtering one another for over 2000 years, well, that's all Bush's fault.

Of course.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 10, 2015 - 11:33am PT
Chief, there has been sectarian violence in Iraq since the day Americans kicked Saddam out of Baghdad. If anything, it has been LESS in the last 5 years (outside of the Daesh conflict) because Sunni and Shia sorted themselves geographically, a process that completed itself roughly around the time that Bush "surged" into Iraq. And even if this was a significant portion of the refugees...so what? We should be eager to offer shelter to any peaceful people fleeing violence and war.

How come every one of your haughty, sarcastic posts is based on some horribly incorrect fact or nonsensical idea?
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2015 - 11:46am PT

How come every one of your haughty, sarcastic posts is based on some horribly incorrect fact or nonsensical idea?

Because he is horribly, sarcastically, haughtily, nonsensically incorrect. And that's a fact!
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Dec 10, 2015 - 11:50am PT
How come every one of your haughty, sarcastic posts is based on some horribly incorrect fact or nonsensical idea?

The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 10, 2015 - 01:23pm PT
there has been sectarian violence in Iraq since the day Americans kicked Saddam out of Baghdad.

Of course there has NEVER been anything of sorts prior to Saddam's demise.

Got it.



Oh shet, wtf is this???


The Halabja chemical attack (Kurdish: Kîmyabarana Helebce کیمیابارانی ھەڵەبجە), also known as the Halabja Massacre or Bloody Friday,[1] was a genocidal massacre against the Kurdish people that took place on March 16, 1988, during the closing days of the Iran–Iraq War in the Kurdish city of Halabja in Southern Kurdistan. The attack was part of the Al-Anfal campaign in northern Iraq, as well as part of the Iraqi attempt to repel the Iranian Operation Zafar 7. It took place 48 hours after the fall of the town to Iranian army and Kurdish guerrillas.

The attack killed between 3,200 and 5,000 people and injured 7,000 to 10,000 more, most of them civilians.[1][2] Thousands more died of complications, diseases, and birth defects in the years after the attack.[3] The incident, which has been officially defined as an act of genocide against the Kurdish people in Iraq,[4] was and still remains the largest chemical weapons attack directed against a civilian-populated area in history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_chemical_attack


Or, this...



Chemical warfare 1983 - 1988 Victims of the Iraqi attack lying in a Halabja street
Up to 5,000 Kurds died at Halabja, northern Iraq
UN experts confirmed in 1986 that Iraq had contravened the Geneva Convention by using chemical weapons against Iran.


Iraq is known to have used the blister agent mustard gas from 1983 and the nerve gas Tabun from 1985, as it faced attacks from "human waves" of Iranian troops and poorly-trained but loyal volunteers. Tabun can kill within minutes.

Or this...

Saddam's Death Squads were credited with torturing and murdering well over a Million "disloyal" Iraqi's between 1982-2000.

IN the unlit blackness of an October night, it took a flashlight to pick them out: rust-colored butchers' hooks, 20 or more, each four or five feet long, aligned in rows along the ceiling of a large hangar-like building. In the grimmest fortress in Iraq's gulag, on the desert floor 20 miles west of Baghdad, this appeared to be the grimmest corner of all, the place of mass hangings that have been a documented part of life under Saddam Hussein.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/26/weekinreview/the-world-how-many-people-has-hussein-killed.html?pagewanted=all

Yeah.... Iraq was such a peaceful nation prior to Bush.



Let's not forget that it was Climate Change that instigated the current "Civil War" conflict in Syria. Again, all between the Sunni's and Shia's.


So, this whole ongoing violent horrific mess in SW Asia (Iraq and Syria) is all Bush's and Climate Change's (Western Industrial "Gunland" Man's) fault. How foolish of me and tens of millions of others to think otherwise.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 10, 2015 - 03:33pm PT
Good lord, Chief. Watching you post is like watching a Saturday Night Live skit. What are you even talking about? What are you even arguing? Saddam attacked the Kurds. What does that have to do with Iraqi refugees from a post-Saddam Iraq? Or sectarian violence? Or Syrian refugees from the conflict in Syria? Literally nothing. You are trying to be smug about facts that everyone agrees on that have no bearing on the current conversation. You're showing signs of actual mental illness, Chief. It's worrisome.
zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 10, 2015 - 03:34pm PT
Oh, did I mention the already 10.5 MILLION Illegal Immigrants from south of the border over just the past decade that have fought tooth and nail not to only to get here. But so illogically, to REMAIN HERE!

I thought these folks came to work and/or raise anchor babies. If it was the guns all along why didn't they leave once they got them?

Maybe it was the work and the disco life.


Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 10, 2015 - 05:41pm PT
"San Bernardino shooter used friend to dodge gun check"

-L.A. Times

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-enrique-marquez-main-mother-speaks-20151210-story.html

"One of the sources said Thursday that Farook wanted to make sure “the guns were not tied back to him” when he asked Enrique Marquez to make the purchases at a Southern California gun store in 2011 or 2012. Farook feared he “wouldn’t pass a background check” if he attempted to acquire the military-style rifles on his own, the source said."




That's the dictionary definition of "straw purchase", Monolith.

One element would have been enough, but Farook satisfied both. Knew he couldn't pass a background check and wanted to avoid government detection.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 10, 2015 - 05:50pm PT
I'm changing my mind about who I vote for in the prez general election. I'm now a solid vote for the Hildabeast or whatever scum bucket the dems nominate.

My wife just reminded me I have a perfect record for voting for the loser.

Saddam was a bad guy, but elements of the Iraqi population were worse and besides that he was a very effective counter weight to Iranian ambitions. All in all, a huge mistake removing him.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 10, 2015 - 05:54pm PT
All the more reason to not sell this sh*t to anyone. Hell, why don't we sell yellow cake uranium to everyone? Then everyone could help defend hearth and home with a nuclear deterrent. We would all be so much safer. Pfttt
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 10, 2015 - 06:26pm PT
It's heartwarming to see life getting back to normal so quickly for the good people of San Bernardino:

"SAN BERNARDINO: Afternoon gunfire kills 1 man, wounds another"

http://www.pe.com/articles/san-788932-bernardino-old.html

"San Bernardino mom charged in son’s near-decapitation death"

http://www.sbsun.com/general-news/20151210/san-bernardino-mom-charged-in-sons-near-decapitation-death

Murder-a-week, every week. That's Berdoo. But in the week since Farook & Wife shot up the town, there have been three.
( remember this guy, from day-before-yesterday? : "SAN BERNARDINO: Man killed after grocery shopping trip" http://www.pe.com/articles/shopping-788683-bernardino-grocery.html Poor bastard. ) Gonna be a bunch of car washes this weekend.

Good old San Bernardino. It'll take more than a terrorist massacre to kill that city's spirit.

PoundSign SBStrong!
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 10, 2015 - 06:32pm PT
If it was the guns all along why didn't they leave once they got them?

I recommend you ask El Chappo and his Cartel thugs that question. They are in fact the leaders in the Western Hemisphere's Black Market illegal arms trade. Of which, most end up on the streets of cities the likes of Chicago, Miami, St. Louis, Detroit etc etc.....


d-know

Trad climber
electric lady land
Dec 10, 2015 - 09:05pm PT
Doesn't matter
duh chief.

Your word is shet.
overwatch

climber
Dec 10, 2015 - 10:01pm PT
Now THAT is a collection
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 11, 2015 - 01:12am PT
And how many of those guns were made here?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 11, 2015 - 05:57am PT
The Chief posted
I recommend you ask El Chappo and his Cartel thugs that question. They are in fact the leaders in the Western Hemisphere's Black Market illegal arms trade. Of which, most end up on the streets of cities the likes of Chicago, Miami, St. Louis, Detroit etc etc.....

America is the number one arms manufacturer in the world. This is like blaming Mexico or South America for our oxycodone problem. Also, why would you run the risk of illegally importing a gun from South America when you can go buy 50 of them legally and anonymously in Indiana and then turn around and sell them in Chicago? You may be correct, Chief, but once again you're going to need to post a respectable citation or two for me to believe it. Your average Chicago gang banger is not toting an assault rifle.
jonnyrig

climber
Dec 11, 2015 - 06:02am PT
Let's clarify things a little:
Out of state transfers require a Federal Firearms License.
That means you are not allowed to buy a gun from a private party outside the state in which you reside without the sale being conducted through a dealer. Same for selling.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 11, 2015 - 06:32am PT
So an Indiana resident can buy 50 guns and then take them to Chicago or give/sell them to someone who will take them to Chicago for sale. Gun shows are fun for a reason.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 11, 2015 - 06:33am PT
Your average Chicago gang banger is not toting an assault rifle.

No. Your avg Chicago, St.Louis, Miami, Detroit etc banger is now toting an assault automatic pistol. Most of which are manufactured outside the US, specifically in Sweden (Tec-9). They graduated and got smarter. They are easier to illegally transport into the US, easier for the bangers to conceal and just as effective.


So an Indiana resident can buy 50 guns and then take them to Chicago or give/sell them to someone who will take them to Chicago for sale.

Where in Chicago are they going to sell them, LEGALLY?


Priceless.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 11, 2015 - 06:34am PT
Again, citation needed, Chief.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 11, 2015 - 06:35am PT
Citation? ... you first.


Your average Chicago gang banger is not toting an assault rifle.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 11, 2015 - 06:38am PT
http://www.forbes.com/sites/frankminiter/2014/08/12/inside-the-black-market-for-guns/

Agent Mulham replied, “Criminals get guns from a lot sources.”

The three agents then explained that about 80 percent of the crime guns found in New York City come from out of state. That makes sense; after all, New Jersey and Connecticut are within commuting distance of New York City. They also said the average “time to crime” (the time it takes for a gun sold from a gun dealer to make it to a criminal’s hands and then to a crime scene) is 12 to 13 years in New York City. “In that time a handgun could easily go through four or more owners,” said Agent Mulham.

I asked, “So basically the guns seized at crime scenes aren’t leading back to gun stores, but to thefts or other sales?”

They nodded agreement.

This made me refer to the ATF’s statistics to get them to explain what’s behind some shocking numbers. I noted that the ATF estimates that 190,342 guns were lost or stolen in the U.S. in 2012. Most of those guns (177,898) were lost or stolen from private residences and vehicles, but 5,762 firearms were reported as being stolen from Federal Firearms Licensed (FFL) dealers—gun stores, pawn shops, and so on. The thing is, though those numbers are alarming, the ATF officially says the number of guns stolen from private hands is a guestimate based on different sources of data. The ATF’s “2012 Summary: Firearms Reported Lost and Stolen” report explains, “This is raw data that has not been substantively reviewed by the FBI, has not been screened for duplicates or other data entry issues, and does not account for firearms that were subsequently found or recovered.” The ATF does, however, say the number of guns stolen from FFLs is a good statistic because in 1994 Congress required FFLs to report the theft or loss of any firearm from their inventories to both the ATF and to local police within 48 hours of discovery.

When I’d previously asked the ATF about the number of stolen guns, ATF Agent Tim Graten, acting deputy chief of public affairs, said, “I really don’t have a good explanation. If we suspect the guns are being sold illegally we’ll start an investigation. There are instances where we’ve revoked Federal Firearms Licenses. Part of that figure is likely from bad record keeping—our agents work with people who have FFLs to get their records in compliance.”

“So,” I asked, “what’s going on behind these numbers?”

Agent Curtis said, “We have a small staff here in New York and we do a lot more than overseeing FFLs. We’re also responsible for monitoring alcohol, tobacco and explosives. In my particular oversight area we have about 1,000 FFLs to check up on. Some are big stores, such as Gander Mountain outlets, and others are small gun shops.”

Agent Curtis then handed me a printout. It was an example of a database gun dealers are required to keep. The gun stores have to maintain up-to-date records of the firearm’s makes, models, serial numbers and other criteria in their store and those they’ve sold. He explained, “Most do a good job, but the record keeping of a few is less than ideal. We work with them and if they’re consistently not keeping comprehensible records we can start an investigation and possibly revoke a Federal Firearms License.”

“What you’re saying is some of those missing guns are really just record-keeping errors?” I asked.

“Some of them.”

pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Dec 11, 2015 - 06:39am PT
Where is that third shooter front the Riverside massacre?


Hope their caught..
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 11, 2015 - 06:45am PT
Not a word about Chicago HDDJ.


But...

[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 11, 2015 - 06:46am PT
The Chief thinks that rap videos and video games are documentaries.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Dec 11, 2015 - 06:48am PT
Where do you plan to learn the goose step, El Jefe? Does Stormfront offer lessons?
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 11, 2015 - 06:59am PT
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber

Dec 11, 2015 - 06:46am PT
The Chief thinks that rap videos and video games are documentaries.




Priceless HDDJ. Priceless....

BTW: "Lil Marc" was shot dead with a, here it comes, a TEC-9. The same Automatic Assault Pistol he totes about in the Video that led to his demise.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 11, 2015 - 07:07am PT
That's some very strong anecdata you've got there, Chief.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 11, 2015 - 07:11am PT
Here's some even stronger reality. But you of course will minimize it.

You are a total ignorant buffoon, HDDJ.

[Click to View YouTube Video]



Carry on with the buffoonery, HDDJ. Your fellow sheepales are lapping it all up/
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 11, 2015 - 07:19am PT
Funny, the only people arguing that "guns are hard to get in America" are anti-gun control people.

Ok, I gave you my best shot, Chief. I'm impressed you went this long without posting a political cartoon, but rap videos are only one step better. I'm sure there are machine pistols on American streets, but this assertion that they are the most commonly used gun is simply not credible without actual references and you can't provide any. If you start posting law enforcement reports with actual statistics I would love to read them but otherwise this is like talking with a 7th grader desperate to prove that Grand Theft Auto is based in reality.
RyanD

climber
Dec 11, 2015 - 07:59am PT
Lmao


The chief it's not even 8 am and you already are frothing nonsense.

yesterday on this thread you were on about Saddam and climate change??

The you changed gears to "el chappo" like you had classified info or something.

You backed it up with random photos of dudes in masks in a room of guns, i think they were screen shots from the last episode of homeland.

It sounded like you were insinuating that they were from Chicago? But I can't really tell because now you are posting random rap videos and claiming intimate knowledge of gun choices of gangs in Miami?? I think...

But you still can't understand how current U.S. Gun laws are perpetuating a cycle of violence.

Not sure if anyone has told you that you have lost it yet today, but add me to the list.




HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 11, 2015 - 08:09am PT
Look, guys! People in Oakland invented the driverless car long before Google!

Source:

[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Also, there were no Tech 9's so I assume we can attribute that to California's strong gun laws.
jonnyrig

climber
Dec 11, 2015 - 08:34am PT
Direct from ATF frequently asked questions:

How may an unlicensed person receive a firearm in his or her State that he or she purchased from an out–of–State source?

An unlicensed person who is not prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms may purchase a firearm from an out–of–State source, provided the transfer takes place through a Federal firearms licensee in his or her State of residence.

[18 U.S.C 922(a)(3) and 922(b)(3); 27 CFR 478.29]

May a person who resides in one State and owns property in another State purchase a firearm in either State?

If a person maintains a home in 2 States and resides in both States for certain periods of the year, he or she may, during the period of time the person actually resides in a particular State, purchase a firearm in that State. However, simply owning property in another State does not alone qualify the person to purchase a firearm in that State.

[27 CFR 478.11]

May an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA in any State?

Generally, a person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State. Exceptions include the acquisition pursuant to a lawful bequest, or an over–the–counter acquisition of a rifle or shotgun from a licensee where the transaction is allowed by the purchaser’s State of residence and the licensee’s State of business. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[18 U.S.C 922(a)(3); 27 CFR 478.29]

Therefore, NO, you may NOT legally conduct interstate face-to-face sales between private parties without going through a FFL.

http://www.atf.gov/qa-category/unlicensed-persons
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 11, 2015 - 08:40am PT
Here is a nice picture of sunrise over the Colorado mountains just for Chuff Chuff.


The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 11, 2015 - 08:42am PT
But you still can't understand how current U.S. Gun laws are perpetuating a cycle of violence.

Not sure if anyone has told you that you have lost it yet today, but add me to the list.

Cranaklooooooooooonaceeee at it best.


Ryan, unlike in Canada, and the rest of the planet for that matter, Criminals do not obey "laws". That is why they are, wait, here it comes...

"CRIMINALS"!


Priceless.

Laugh of the day so far......
jonnyrig

climber
Dec 11, 2015 - 08:43am PT
http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/GUIC.PDF
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 11, 2015 - 08:46am PT
In Chief's reality, being a "criminal" allows you to magically have access to all things.
jonnyrig

climber
Dec 11, 2015 - 08:46am PT
http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/criminals-and-the-guns-they-carry


Misinformation is really a great way to f*#k up an argument.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 11, 2015 - 08:51am PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ From your source...


Little information exists about the use of assault weapons in crime. The information that does exist uses varying definitions of assault weapons that were developed before the Federal assault weapons ban was enacted. (1994)

So in other words, the BJS hasn't the foggiest clue as to how many current day "crimes" "AW'S" are used. The last source of solid data they have is back in 1994. 21 years ago.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 11, 2015 - 08:59am PT
jonnyrig! Good information.

From sniffing around gunsale websites, it does appear that any firearm manufactured before 1899 is considered Antique by folks running those sites and can be shipped directly from state to state without going through a licensed firearm dealer.

The ATF site says the gun has to be a muzzleloader, but the firearms sale folks differ per this link to Empire Arms.

http://www.empirearms.com/pre-1899.htm

For example, lever-action Model 1894 Winchester 30-30's, with pre-1899 serial number are being bought & sold on these sites.

I'm sure they aren't considered as sexy as modern semi-automatics, but they were used by several armies in WWI & were manufactured up until 2006.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 11, 2015 - 09:03am PT
The libtard hand-wringers who are so worked up about 'semi-autos' have never seen a
proficient shooter unload a revolver and re-load with a 'speed-loader' setup. Granted, it might
be a second slower than a semi-auto but it just points up how ignorant they are and how
ridiculous the mag cap restrictions are.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Dec 11, 2015 - 09:10am PT
Chief.... +1

Rilley .... +1


carry on
Norton

Social climber
Dec 11, 2015 - 09:11am PT
libtard hand-wringers who are so worked up


like who, Reilly

can you name some of these guys?

just curious, thanks
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 11, 2015 - 09:13am PT
Reilly posted
The libtard hand-wringers who are so worked up about 'semi-autos' have never seen a
proficient shooter unload a revolver and re-load with a 'speed-loader' setup. Granted, it might
be a second slower than a semi-auto but it just points up how ignorant they are and how
ridiculous the mag cap restrictions are.

And yet more evidence that the enemies we need guns to protect ourselves from exist solely in the daydreams of seventh graders and apparently are way better shots than the rest of us anyway so we're all gonna die. Ban the muslims.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 11, 2015 - 09:16am PT
Average criminal/terrorist according to Reilly: [Click to View YouTube Video]
jonnyrig

climber
Dec 11, 2015 - 09:21am PT
So in other words, the BJS hasn't the foggiest clue as to how many current day "crimes" "AW'S" are used. The last source of solid data they have is back in 1994. 21 years ago.

Well, you're going to either have to rely on privately funded data, or allow funding for the CDC, Dept of Justice, et al, to study the issue. You willing to pony up to that? Otherwise, I'm going to have to call bullshit on your claim of what is the most popular gun used in crimes these days. Post up or shut up. You aren't going to win this argument without data to back up your claims.

Sure am jealous of all the fishing you get to do though.
jonnyrig

climber
Dec 11, 2015 - 09:25am PT
From a couple recent posts above regarding lever guns and revolvers:

That's why I disagree with banning specific types of weapon. Sooner or later the anti-gun crowd will figure out and/or go after traditional hunting arms, like pump action shotguns, lever guns, and revolvers; because they're just as deadly as a semi-auto.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 11, 2015 - 09:30am PT
The operative term is..

a proficient shooter



I don''t think we libtard hand wringers are worked up about "proficient shooters". It's the ammo-ed and arsenal-ed up sociopaths who are anything but "proficient" and who go snap crackle pop in public spaces that are our concern.




Dec 11, 2015 - 09:25am PT
From a couple recent posts above regarding lever guns and revolvers:

That's why I disagree with banning specific types of weapon. Sooner or later the anti-gun crowd will figure out and/or go after traditional hunting arms, like pump action shotguns, lever guns, and revolvers; because they're just as deadly as a semi-auto.

And by what previous examples in reality do you credit for this baseless fear?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 11, 2015 - 09:33am PT
The most used gun is the gun on hand - which playing the percentages would be the ubiquitous .38 revolver. Or a .22

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 11, 2015 - 09:35am PT
jonny posted
That's why I disagree with banning specific types of weapon. Sooner or later the anti-gun crowd will figure out and/or go after traditional hunting arms, like pump action shotguns, lever guns, and revolvers; because they're just as deadly as a semi-auto.

Except that they aren't? That's just an absurd claim. Those weapons exist because they are more efficient at spitting bullets at people, not because they are just a different flavor of weapon.


Chaz posted
The most used gun is the gun on hand - which playing the percentages would be the ubiquitous .38 revolver. Or a .22

Hey, now. This has already been disproved with rap videos. We don't need your made up data here, ok?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 11, 2015 - 10:02am PT
Are those actual Chief quotes?
jonnyrig

climber
Dec 11, 2015 - 10:04am PT
The assault weapons ban is a good example of failed policy at attempting to ban specific types of weapons. So are California's current laws (and the resultant "assault weapon" shooting that just took place.)

Fact is, to get real about preventing the type of gun violence that most commonly occurs, handguns of all types should really be top-of-the-list, based on available data concerning which weapons are most frequently used in crime. (If, you know, you think bans are really the most effective way to reduce crime.)
As to revolvers, pump shotguns, and lever guns being less effective? I submit to you that your average criminal simply doesn't take the time to become effective with them. I suppose the semi's are easier to use sans training; but then again WTF do I know? I'm just a gun nut. You'd think if the really lethal "assault weapons" were the deadliest choice out there, hunters would be flocking to them in droves to improve their odds; but that doesn't seem the case.

Go play in the rain philo.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 11, 2015 - 10:07am PT
They sure LOCKER.

These "savages" LOcker... the ones that dragged through the streets of Skinny Town and then burned to a crisp five of the US Soldiers that died that day trying to help them locals. Including Gordy and Shugart.


I can post photos of the Skinny Savages torching the bodies and dancing around them, but I that would just get more of the PC'd folks all riled up and I would then get more hate mail for posting reality.


Got an issue with that Locker.


BTW LOcker, we were there to help rid the region of the local "Terrorist" Aidid and his AL Daeda thugs that was murdering by the hundreds, the locals.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 11, 2015 - 10:12am PT
jonny posted
The assault weapons ban is a good example of failed policy at attempting to ban specific types of weapons. So are California's current laws (and the resultant "assault weapon" shooting that just took place.)

As I've written earlier, I generally agree with that statement but they didn't ban "types" so much as they were banning cosmetic features which is silly. We should be limiting the actual characteristics of the guns that provide the lethality such as caliber, rate of fire and magazine capacity as well as the totally legal "ready for modification" features that manufacturers include.


Chief: I'm sorry that your buddies were attacked. It was a horrible day. It still doesn't justify your racism.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 11, 2015 - 10:13am PT
Sure is "Very Telling" Locker. Something you haven't clue about. Not one.

Helplessly watching two of your "Shipmates" give their lives so that another can live, who btw both posthumously received the CMH for their unselfish actions, then seeing them get dragged through the streets and then burned to a crisp by the people they were there to help and save.


Yup, "Very telling."


So go off and sniff some more of that glue.... Locker.

It was a horrible day. It still doesn't justify your racism.

"Racism"??? It's called WAR. Something you also have no clue about either HDDJ.
brotherbbock

Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
Dec 11, 2015 - 10:14am PT
From WBraun
The libtard hand-wringers are candy ass nutcases.

Just look at these pathetic crankloons yapping away everyday their stoopid politarded cesspool of loonism ....

+10 For most made up words in a post. Well done.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 11, 2015 - 10:15am PT
Chuffie why don't you bend up and sniff his anal vapors.

Thanks Frank Zappa for the perfect quote.



I'd rather be a LibTard hand wringer than a ChuffTard hand jobber.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Dec 11, 2015 - 10:24am PT
Looks like The Chief hurt some folk's delicate sensitivities.

Cut it out Chief.

You might get reported.
brotherbbock

Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
Dec 11, 2015 - 10:24am PT
"I hated Somalia and the Skinnies that lived there. Every minute of time I was there only festered my hatred for them pathetic savages."...


What a great representative of America you were...


I have to agree with Locker on this one....
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 11, 2015 - 10:28am PT
These human beings were "skinny" because they were starving and he uses it as a means to denigrate. Total F*#kHead!

You did your job, you got paid. That's all.
You get no bonus points or extra credit for having served in the military.
You are no hero you are just a miserable turd and a disgraceful human being.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 11, 2015 - 10:36am PT
These human beings were "skinny" because they were starving and he uses it as a means to denigrate. Total F*#kHead!

Another "Struck by Lightning" initiated post.

Nice Philo.

"he"?



Dooood. That was the generic term ALL of us gave them savage bad guys. "Us" including the Pakistani's, Indians, FFL's, SAS's etc that were there trying to help in support of seven UN resolutions.


You really are one ignorant stooopid fking moron Philo.


EDIT: The "Skinny's" we were trying to rid the region of, they weren't starving. They were stealing the hundreds of tons of UN Food drops we were there protecting.

80% of my ops while in Somalia included "Vert Repping" sling loads of food to outlying villages. Then orbiting "Locked and Loaded" and protecting the villagers from Aidid's murdering savage thugs.
brotherbbock

Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
Dec 11, 2015 - 10:38am PT
Wow this tread is getting interesting now...
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 11, 2015 - 10:40am PT
philo

climber

Topic Author's Reply - Dec 11, 2015 - 10:28am PT

You did your job, you got paid. That's all.
You get no bonus points or extra credit for having served in the military.
You are no hero you are just a miserable turd and a disgraceful human being

Of course Philo. Thank you.


Next classic "Struck by Lightning" post.

Carry on.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 11, 2015 - 10:42am PT
Dood your heart is black with evil. Seek help.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 11, 2015 - 10:45am PT
^^^^^^^^^Priceless^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

dirtbag

climber
Dec 11, 2015 - 10:46am PT
Guys, I think you should cut chief some slack on this. It's easy for us to judge 20 years later on events occurring half a world away, especially since (I assume) we weren't there. But he was there, in truly horrible situations that, having never served in combat (let alone, the military), I cannot begin to comprehend. I think I would need to walk in his shoes to understand, before judging how he views enemy combatants.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 11, 2015 - 10:47am PT
My nephew is an active soldier with multiple decoration and purple hearts plural from repeat deployments in war zones. He is doing his duty and is not an arrogant blowhard about it.
So screw this cutting slack crap. AssHat's past is his. He presents himself in an ugly way and that is what warrants response.

Is anyone else ready for this thread - having been putrified by ChuffChuff - to go away or should it wait for a day or two til the next mass shooting? It is the Christmas season after all and that always brings out the best in people.
jonnyrig

climber
Dec 11, 2015 - 10:53am PT
I can understand the intent of banning specific calibers; but given the number of calibers available on the market today, and with so many that are specifically designed to be deadly in both handguns and rifles for the specific intent of killing game animals, I don't find such a policy to be reasonable in any sense of the word. If magazine capacity floats your boat, well hey... I guess there's a compromise somewhere. What do you do about lever guns and existing semi-autos, and shotguns that hold more than the allowable number? Many of those are, indeed, in wide circulation and not easily modified from their original design. Would it be fair to require modification or surrender of those weapons? How about the high-cap mags that are currently owned? I suspect, without looking into your previous posts, that it would be expected these weapons/components would be removed from circulation over time.

Would it not be more effective and practical to institute an immediate registration requirement and background NICS check with every sale? No loopholes. Caught with unregistered firearm? Heavy fines and/or jail. Transfer to someone else without conducting NICS check? Same penalty.

This is not to say I would be wild about it, just that I see it as a more effective tool to reduce illegal guns. Along with that I'd like to see better reporting of mental issues to the NICS system. Although in my personal opinion, I don't see picking out specific types of weapons and/or especially specific calibers as being practical.

For example: California bans the 50BMG round. Why? Name some crimes committed with one? And tell me, why just the 50? Why not the 458 Winchester Mag? Or the 450 Nitro Express? Fearmongering and misinformation often seem to rule the day, unnecessarily I might add.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 11, 2015 - 10:55am PT
He wasn't talking about "Enemies"...

He was talking about ALL the "Skinnies" living in Somalia...

I can now see why you no longer are employed as a Drug and Alcohol Counselor and are stuck in some room in the desert sniffing glue all day long.

Priceless but, expected.

philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 11, 2015 - 10:55am PT
For all you Lil Chuffie supporters try this; substitute the word Jews for any other of his denigrations and see how sweetly that rolls of your tongue.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 11, 2015 - 10:57am PT
Chief posted
"Racism"??? It's called WAR. Something you also have no clue about either HDDJ.

Sorry, Chief. It's just racism. I'm sure you've built up 30 years of justifications for it, but it's just good old fashioned, boring bigotry.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 11, 2015 - 10:57am PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Ah, now I am a Jew hating Nazi. Good for you Philo.




Sorry, Chief. It's just racism. I'm sure you've built up 30 years of justifications for it, but it's just good old fashioned, boring bigotry.

If your never been in combat seeing good honorable people get "fried" ass says so, HDDJ.


EDIT: Locally we have two Battle Hardened Marines from Vietnam and one Army LRRP in our Combat Vet Group. You do not even want to hear them speak of the hatred, bigotry, racism or what ever you libturds want to title us with, for the VC they encountered on a daily basis.

philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 11, 2015 - 11:07am PT

AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLER WHO ALMOST KILLED MICHELLE OBAMA BUSTED WITH ILLEGAL GUNS AND METH


The name Breen Peck may not sound familiar to you, but his actions might ring a bell. In 20011, Peck was the subject of a highly-publicized incident in which he almost killed the First Lady and the “Vice-First-Lady ” as they were landing at Andrews Air Force Base after a television appearance. Because of Peck’s error, the Boeing 737 had a near-miss with a military cargo jet. At the time, the Washington Post reported:

The incident involving Obama and Biden occurred as they were returning from a television appearance and other events in New York aboard a Boeing 737 that is part of the White House fleet.

Peck was the controller handling a sector that includes approaches to Andrews Air Force Base. The C-17 had been cleared to land, and Peck was lining up the White House jet to land behind it.
The turbulence created by a 200-ton C-17, which ripples behind planes like waves in the wake of a supertanker ship, is a potential danger. It is powerful enough to severely buffet a trailing plane and, in extreme cases, result in a crash.

As a result, a minimum distance of five miles of separation is required between a C-17 and a trailing plane. Peck allowed the White House jet to come within three miles of the military plane. When controllers feared that plane might not clear the runway fast enough, they ordered the Obama plane to abort its landing.

“He declared that he confused the minimum wake turbulence separation requirements for a B737 following a heavy C-17 as 4 miles instead of the required 5 miles between aircraft,” a NTSB report explained. “The controller stated that he was thinking of [a Boeing] 757 following 757 separation at Washington Reagan National Airport and confused the two applications during this incident.”

Peck was also responsible for numerous other errors, including causing a United Airlines Airbus to come within 15 seconds of colliding with a smaller jet carrying a Congressman as the aircraft were approaching the Reagan National Airport. “That was close,” the United pilot could be heard saying after narrowly missing the jet.

Peck was transferred from the air traffic control facility after the incident, and the FAA began requiring air traffic control supervisors to monitor the arrival and departure of presidential aircraft. Peck was retained and assigned to administrative duties at a facility at New York, but was never allowed to return to directing traffic — with good cause.

PECK IS BACK IN THE NEWS AFTER HE WAS ARRESTED IN NEW YORK. POLICE SAY THEY FOUND HIM WITH A GUN IN HIS CAR AND METHAMPHETAMINE IN THE POCKET OF HIS PANTS.
When Peck was pulled over in Hempstead after he failed to signal before a turn, Peck said he had a loaded handgun behind the driver’s seat of his 2010 Toyota and another in the rear cargo area. He does not have a permit to carry the guns — a Bersa Thunder.380 handgun with eight rounds in the magazine, a Beretta .40-caliber semi-automatic with 10 rounds. Police also found an additional clip with five rounds. After police arrested him for the illegal guns, they found crystal meth in Peck’s front pants pocket.

Peck was charged with criminal possession of a gun and possession of a controlled substance and was cited for a number of traffic violations. The FAA said Thursday it is investigating the arrest.
RyanD

climber
Dec 11, 2015 - 11:15am PT



Sing "Another One Bout the chief"

[Verse 1]
Rick walks warily down the street
With the brim pulled way down low
Ain't no sound but the sound of his feet
Machine guns ready to go
Are you ready? Hey are you ready for this?
Are you hanging on the edge of your seat?
Out of the doorway the bullets rip
To the sound of the beat

Another one bout the chief
Another one Bout the chief
And another thread gone, and another thread gone
Another one bout the chief
Hey, I'm gonna get you too
Another one bout the chief


[Verse 2]
How do you think I'm going to get along
Without you, when you're gone
You took me for everything that I had
And kicked me out on my own
Are you happy, are you satisfied?
How long can you stand the heat
Out of the doorway the bullets rip
To the sound of the beat

Another one bout the chief
Another one bout the chief
And another thread gone, and another thread gone
Another one bout the chief
Hey, I'm gonna get you too
Another one bout the chief

[Instrumental Break]

[Verse 3]
Another one bout the chief
Another one bout the chief
Another one bout the chief
Another one bout the chief

There are plenty of ways you can hurt a man
And bring him to the ground
You can beat him
You can cheat him
You can treat him bad and leave him
When he's down

But I'm ready, yes I'm ready for you
I'm standing on my own two feet
Out of the doorway the bullets rip
Repeating the sound of the beat


Another one bout the chief
Another one bout the chief
And another thread gone, and another thread gone
Another one bout the chief
Hey, I'm gonna get you too
Another one bout the chief


HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 11, 2015 - 11:22am PT
Chief posted
If your never been in combat seeing good honorable people get "fried" ass says so, HDDJ.

Having a friend die in combat gives you every right to grieve and every right to be mad at the horrible manner the people there desecrated his body. However, if after 30 years you haven't found a way to separate what those people did from your generalizations of Somalians as a whole, it's not because of what they did but because of who you have chosen to be. Having suffered a loss in combat does not in fact give you a free pass to say racist things.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 11, 2015 - 11:36am PT
Drop in anytime you're needing to feel superior, Burch. It's what we're here for.
RyanD

climber
Dec 11, 2015 - 11:43am PT
6/10 lecture Burch


Would have been 8/10 if the pants pooping timeline made more sense.

But yeah you are probably right.

luckily my morning troll shift is ending, and the weather is looking prime to increase the hole count in the monolith with the only gun I should hopefully ever require: the bolt gun.

patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Dec 11, 2015 - 12:10pm PT
ahh the point in the dead thread where it degrades into random personal insults
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Dec 11, 2015 - 12:47pm PT
Burch is like the annoying "reformed" alcoholic whose new vice is going around telling everyone else to stop drinking.
Maybe he's right, maybe not, but either way, everyone wishes he'd just shut up!
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Dec 11, 2015 - 12:58pm PT
ahh the point in the dead thread where it degrades into random personal insults

Are you kidding? That happened on page 1, over 1,200 posts ago.

I'm with Burch on this one.
monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 11, 2015 - 02:02pm PT
They try to steal our food too.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 11, 2015 - 02:49pm PT
Try again... LOCKER.




The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 11, 2015 - 02:55pm PT
Sorry LOCKER... but I can now see why you were shitcanned and are no longer employed any where as a Drug and Alcohol Counselor and have been banned to a glue sniffing room in the middle of the desert.

Go figure.

Oh, and here are some of the "children Skinnies" avging between the ages of 10-14 y/o's that were part of the mob that dragged and then burned 4 US Soldiers on Oct 3, 1993 and that later captured and decapitated in public 7 Pakistani UN Soldiers two weeks later....






HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 11, 2015 - 03:08pm PT
Now that this thread is a monument to Chief's deep seated racism can we voluntarily close it? Like my grandmother earlier today, it's reached the end of its natural life.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 11, 2015 - 03:17pm PT
Bigoted idiots in uniform are not representative of what our country is about...

Priceless.

EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Dec 11, 2015 - 03:20pm PT
skinny

Slang used in Robert Heinlein's classic Novel Starship Troopers (First published in 1959) to describe enemy aliens that were human like but thin and about 8 feet tall.

The novel is read and held in high regard by many soldiers. The term "skinny" is most popular for its usage in Mark Bowden's best selling book and later movie, Black Hawk Down. The Rangers referred to the Somalis as "skinnys" because they had read Starship Troopers.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 11, 2015 - 03:24pm PT
Some Reality for you LOcker and the rest of you naive Libtard Crankaloons here...

US Army Lt Col going off on Shia Police. Pretty much a common theme then and now.



What a fuking racist and bigot...

[Click to View YouTube Video]




Carry on Loons.


I voluntarily give myself 1-/10 for being an idiot...

0/10 for just, being, Locker.

locker

climber
STFU n00b!!!

Dec 11, 2015 - 03:22pm PT


But when I make shEt up like I do...

I look like an even bigger idiot...

FIFY Locker.

Now go back and huff some more of that glue.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 11, 2015 - 03:39pm PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^RFLMO! Niiiiice and perfect.






locker

climber
STFU n00b!!!

Dec 11, 2015 - 03:36pm PT


You're a disgrace to the American Military as well as all it's people...

You should be totally cut off from any pension or funding via tax dollars...



^^^^^^^ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ and a bigass YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWN^^^^

Now go huff, Locker.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Dec 11, 2015 - 03:56pm PT
Regarding Locker's copy of Cheif's quote:
"I sure as hell did not do it for any of them ungrateful savage Skinnies"

The Chief attempts to say "Skinnies" were the name they referred to the "enemy" as. The military has a long history of doing this; dehumanizing others to make it easier to convince soldiers to kill them. But just as "Japs" referred to ALL Japanese, and Krauts" referred to all Germans, "Skinny's" referred to ALL Somalians.

Nonetheless, The Chief, when you wrote "I sure as hell did not do it for any of them ungrateful savage Skinnies" - you SURELY cannot expect us to believe you meant the
warmongers
amongst the Somalians. Anyone with reading comprehension can see that you were referring to the Somalians who were being beaten, killed and worse by the warlords and their crews.

You have PTSD, the Chief. I am very sorry about that. It must truly have been beyond a living nightmare to go through what you went through.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Dec 11, 2015 - 04:00pm PT
Dooood. That was the generic term ALL of us gave them savage bad guys. "Us" including the Pakistani's, Indians, FFL's, SAS's etc that were there trying to help in support of seven UN resolutions.


You really are one ignorant stooopid fking moron Philo.


EDIT: The "Skinny's" we were trying to rid the region of, they weren't starving. They were stealing the hundreds of tons of UN Food drops we were there protecting.

80% of my ops while in Somalia included "Vert Repping" sling loads of food to outlying villages. Then orbiting "Locked and Loaded" and protecting the villagers from Aidid's murdering savage thugs.


Thank you for what you did... its tough to be in the military, to do your duty, to die if need be for some worthy goal in some god awful place. And just because it was for some short term political goal with zero long term fix of the basic problem you guys did America proud.

Thank you.

Guy Keesee
d-know

Trad climber
electric lady land
Dec 11, 2015 - 04:10pm PT
Just duh chief
not the.

Doesn't matter what
you say.

Your word is shet.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 11, 2015 - 04:21pm PT
There is no excuse for the type of ignorance being presented here on this thread...

Just remember this LOCker..

For that ONE finger you have pointing at me, there's three pointing at right back at, YOU.




But when you make shEt up like you do... you look like an even bigger idiot...

Then this glue fumes inspired comment...


"I sure as hell did not do it for any of them ungrateful savage Skinnies"...

Say's all it needs and is very clear what it means...



Matters not that he "Served"...

There is no excuse for the type of ignorance being presented here on this thread...

Priceless.






EDIT: Certainly appears that DirtBag, EDT, HAPPIEgirl and GUY get it. Glad to see there is some sanity here. Thanks.



The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 11, 2015 - 04:30pm PT
locker

climber
STFU n00b!!!

Dec 11, 2015 - 01:56pm PT

"Them skinnies"...


Who do them think they are???...

They're nothing but skinny savages...

I hate them all!!!...


Bigoted idiots in uniform are not representative of what our country is about...



You wear your hatred proudly...

"I sure as hell did not do it for any of them ungrateful savage Skinnies"...

Say's all it needs and is very clear what it means...



Matters not that he "Served"...

There is no excuse for the type of ignorance being presented here on this thread...

Dude is a fuking DISGRACE...

That you continue to use your PTSD diagnoses as an excuse for the sh!t you post???...


You're a disgrace to the American Military as well as all it's people...

You should be totally cut off from any pension or funding via tax dollars...




Then....



locker

climber
STFU n00b!!!

Dec 11, 2015 - 03:22pm PT

But when you make shEt up like you do... you look like an even bigger idiot...


What's your EXCUSE, LOcker?


The "Glue"?


Has to be. Cus sure wasn't no....




Oh yeah, and LOCKER, nice form in cross posting this shet from another thread.

Brilliant.

Way to make shet up.


rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Dec 11, 2015 - 04:38pm PT
The Chief...What does any of this have to do with the prime rib special at Tom's place...?
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 11, 2015 - 04:40pm PT
RJ, the "grill"! That's what.





locker

climber
STFU n00b!!!

Dec 11, 2015 - 10:17am PT


"I hated Somalia and the Skinnies that lived there. Every minute of time I was there only festered my hatred for them pathetic savages."...




"I sure as hell did not do it for any of them ungrateful savage Skinnies"...


What a great representative of America you were...




Then some five hours later, this SPINELESS post by the "Glue Man"..

locker

climber
STFU n00b!!!

Dec 11, 2015 - 03:22pm PT

But when you make shEt up like you do... you look like an even bigger idiot...
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Dec 11, 2015 - 04:49pm PT
SOME OF YOU folks are soooo incredibility lame, its difficult to understand where you are coming from.

Both of the recent "shooters" .... the PP one and the Muslim assault couple are cut from the same cloth. They do what they do because they "hate" on people who believe something different from what they believe in.

Don't ask me for the solution, this problem is as old as people and will not go away because you go lock up the guns.

The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 11, 2015 - 04:54pm PT
locker

climber
STFU n00b!!!

Dec 11, 2015 - 04:48pm PT I don't need to make up anything about you...

You do such a great job already of looking like a bigoted fool...

Classic.



You're FIRED Canned Glue Man. And while you're at it, lock up them guns of yours you fking hypocrite, LOcker.


And I will say it again....


I HATE everyone of them of Aidid's Somali SKINNY Savage fking Al Qaeda Thugs. Every last one of.
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Dec 11, 2015 - 05:09pm PT
I just can't understand those lame people who hate those lame people with different beliefs. Oh wait a minute, maybe I can :-)
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 11, 2015 - 05:30pm PT
"I hated Somalia and the Skinnies that lived there. Every minute of time I was there only festered my hatred for them pathetic savages."... "I sure as hell did not do it for any of them ungrateful savage Skinnies"..


CLARITY for those here that have had their heads buried in the sand and huffing glue for over a decade now..

skinny

Slang used in Robert Heinlein's classic Novel Starship Troopers (First published in 1959) to describe enemy aliens that were human like but thin and about 8 feet tall.

The novel is read and held in high regard by many soldiers. The term "skinny" is most popular for its usage in Mark Bowden's best selling book and later movie, Black Hawk Down. The Rangers referred to the Somalis as "skinnys" because they had read Starship Troopers.

The Chief attempts to say "Skinnies" were the name they referred to the "enemy" as. The military has a long history of doing this; dehumanizing others to make it easier to convince soldiers to kill them. But just as "Japs" referred to ALL Japanese, and Krauts" referred to all Germans, "Skinny's" referred to ALL Somalians.

Nonetheless, The Chief, when you wrote "I sure as hell did not do it for any of them ungrateful savage Skinnies" - you SURELY cannot expect us to believe you meant the

warmongers

amongst the Somalians. Anyone with reading comprehension can see that you were referring to the Somalians who were being beaten, killed and worse by the warlords and their crews.

Not my words btw LOCKER. The words of those on this thread that "get it" and did NOT MAKE any SHET UP.

NOW, put that glue can down, go outside, take a deep breath, clear your head some, and please do wipe that encrusted sand out of your eyes while you are at it.
d-know

Trad climber
electric lady land
Dec 11, 2015 - 05:32pm PT
Just duh.

Your word is

shet.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 11, 2015 - 05:38pm PT
Let's try this one more time for the ignorant one's here that insist on making "shet up" while huffing their glue can...

"I hated Somalia and the Skinnies that lived there. Every minute of time I was there only festered my hatred for them pathetic savages."... "I sure as hell did not do it for any of them ungrateful savage Skinnies"..


Skinny

Slang used in Robert Heinlein's classic Novel Starship Troopers (First published in 1959) to describe enemy aliens that were human like but thin and about 8 feet tall.

The novel is read and held in high regard by many soldiers. The term "skinny" is most popular for its usage in Mark Bowden's best selling book and later movie, Black Hawk Down. The Rangers referred to the Somalis as "skinnys" because they had read Starship Troopers.


"Dooood. That was the generic term ALL of us gave them savage bad guys. "Us" including the Pakistani's, Indians, FFL's, SAS's etc that were there trying to help in support of seven UN resolutions."



Keep making "shet up" Locker. You Go... go LOCKER go ... Glue Boy!
d-know

Trad climber
electric lady land
Dec 11, 2015 - 05:42pm PT
Doesn't matter
what you say now.

Your word is
shet.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Dec 11, 2015 - 05:44pm PT
You have PTSD, the Chief.

Priceless.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 11, 2015 - 06:11pm PT
Ungrateful is the key word here. No one would complain about their enemy being ungrateful.

Well well well...


One minor flaw in that "statement" of yours Chuckar...


Most of the time we did NOT know who the "Enemy" was. Cus many of them savage "Skinnies" that wanted us all DEAD ranged in ages from 10-14 years of age.






Just like the OP of this thread that you clown crankaloon bags just do NOT get nor ever will cus of all that SAND in your eyes.


Who would have known that an innocent looking young women would lead such a horrific attack. Who??
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 11, 2015 - 06:30pm PT
locker

climber
STFU n00b!!!

Dec 11, 2015 - 06:21pm PT

One of the Canadian crew posted it a couple of days ago and I totally agree...

Fuking total nut...


Sniff away and keep that half shaved head of yours in the ... sand.




Carry on LOONS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> !
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Dec 11, 2015 - 06:56pm PT
you boys sure do turn out some fine turd sausage. and fries. keep up the good work. And remember, ST politard shitfests like this one will go nowhere if you consider things in an empathic light. Not that you fellas should have a problem with that.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Dec 11, 2015 - 08:33pm PT
Locker..I'm just going to assume you were not part of or ever really grew up around the Military.

There are some people who get a pass for using terms like "gook" "skinny" "kraut" "jap" or whatever.

Those that get a pass are the ones who faced them in WAR.

I try really hard not to misrepresent my very limited involvement with the military.. My dad was navy. I enjoyed ROTC camps during summers in high school..I did grow up on bases of various types. I did missions with the 210th ANG PJs as a member of the Alaska mountain rescue group..I did help train some SF in Avalanche safety. Because of this I knew I could never fit in with the military as much as I admired some aspects of it.

Purely civilian as it is..my background gives me some slight appreciation for that mindset of military personel vs the enemy.

A real enemy..not a figurative enemy. It's a f*#king rough world..war is not anything most civilians can comprehend. I aint been there and i'm damn glad for it..

But I have enough glimpse from stories and other stuff that I can say this...If you think the chief is somehow way off the mark in his perspective about "skinnies" or "war"... you could not be more wrong.. it's guys like the cheif that you damn well pray to god you have on your side when it matters. Well not really cause people like the chief are what the military IS..you don't have to pray for it cause they ARE there. The Navy crafted the chief for a purpose..he excelled at it or he would not be a chief.

Dosnt mean I can't disagree with him about other stuff.. but when it comes to inappropriate politically incorrect terms regarding an enemy of the USA... I don't even blink at his terminology or emotional content.

It is appropriate based on where he comes from.. which is a very real place you don't want to come from.

Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 11, 2015 - 08:35pm PT
The Chief! Here's a Christmas song for you. Heidi & I wrote it about 2003.

Jest know you will love it!

TO THE TUNE OF “JINGLE BELLS”

Jingle bells, shotgun shells,
Buck-shot all the way.
Oh what fun it is to blow
Them terrorists away

Dashing through the sand,
My M16 in hand.
Shooting as I go,
Shouting Ho Ho Ho!

Ragheads everywhere,
Dressed in underwear.
Should not have screwed with us,
Now their life is tough.

Arabs on the run,
They’re not having fun.
When we’re done with them,
Their terror will end.

Jingle bells, shotgun shells
Buck-shot all the way.
Oh what joy it is to sing
A slaying song today!!
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Dec 11, 2015 - 09:21pm PT
I bet the Inukshuks loved that tune and smiled their approval...
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 11, 2015 - 09:32pm PT
rottingjohnny! The Inukshuks were rock-solid in approval, in their hearts of stone.


climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Dec 11, 2015 - 09:33pm PT
A police officer pulls a Navy Chief over for speeding and has the following exchange:

Officer: May I see your driver's license?
Navy Chief Petty Officer: I don't have one. It was suspended when I got my 5th DUI.

Officer: May I see the registration for this vehicle?
Navy Chief: It's not my car. I stole it.

Officer: The car is stolen?
Navy Chief: That's right. But come to think of it, I think I saw the registration in the glove box when I was putting my gun in there.

Officer: There's a gun in the glove box?
Navy Chief: Yes sir. That's where I put it after I shot and killed the woman who owns this car and stuffed her in the trunk.

Officer: There's a BODY in the TRUNK?!
Navy Chief: Yes, sir.

Hearing this, the officer immediately called his captain.
The car was quickly surrounded by police, and the captain approached the driver to handle the tense situation:

Captain: Sir, can I see your license?
Navy Chief: Sure. Here it is. It was valid.

Captain: Whose car is this?
Navy Chief: It's mine, officer. Here's the registration.
The driver owned the car.

Captain: Could you slowly open your glove box so I can see if there's a gun in it?
Navy Chief: Yes, sir, but there's no gun in it.
Sure enough, there was nothing in the glove box.

Captain: Would you mind opening your trunk? I was told you said there's a body in it.
Navy Chief: No problem.
Trunk is opened; no body.

Captain: I don't understand it.
The officer who stopped you said you told him you didn't have a license, stole the car, had a gun in the glove box, and that there was a dead body in the trunk.

Navy Chief: Yeah, and I'll bet the liar said that I was speeding, too.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 12, 2015 - 08:20pm PT
Life is back to normal in San Bernardino:

"A San Bernardino police officer shot and killed a man Saturday, Dec. 12, officials said. The unidentified 49-year-old San Bernardino resident was shot after threatening a woman with a knife..."

http://www.pe.com/articles/officer-789172-bernardino-knife.html




Tender heartfelt prayers go out to the unidentified decedent, as well as to the woman whose relationship to the decedent is yet to be determined, as we eagerly await info on the up-coming car wash.

Pound Sign SBStrong
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 12, 2015 - 08:39pm PT
That one's ok... it was just knife-violence...
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 12, 2015 - 09:04pm PT
Chaz! Here's to another 50,000 years of you roasting in hell for bringing this thread back after 23 hours without it.

Merry fuking Christmas!
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 13, 2015 - 08:07am PT
S.B.Strong - hashtag

"Man fatally shot at transient camp in San Bernardino"

http://www.sbsun.com/general-news/20151212/man-fatally-shot-at-transient-camp-in-san-bernardino

In the ten days since Farook & Wife shot up a Christmas party, San Bernardino cops have killed three people and the Good Citizens of San Bernardino have killed four.

That's the San Bernardino I know, and some people love.

During the same time period, there have been zero murders in San Francisco, Seattle, or Orange County. SBStrong
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 13, 2015 - 08:34am PT
There are some people who get a pass for using terms like "gook" "skinny" "kraut" "jap" or whatever.

Those that get a pass are the ones who faced them in WAR.


no
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 13, 2015 - 10:07am PT
I still don't see what is wrong with "jap". We truncate all kinds of other words.

Some people are just too sensitive.

That said, I can be a little touchy about how some people use the word "jew".



The real issue is building bridges rather than walls.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 13, 2015 - 10:40am PT
But, TV, if I say Ashkenazim or Sephardim my Goy friends just stare stoopidly. Then I have
to give a long explanation, especially if we get into Mizrachim and Yemenites!
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 13, 2015 - 10:49am PT
I just love how the Black Community utilizes the "N'a" word amongst one another without any hesitation. Pretty much second nature actually. Even the little kids.

But when some racist "Whitey" even breaths the an N, watch the fk out! Stone the mofo and off with his pee pee!

Priceless...


[Click to View YouTube Video]
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Dec 13, 2015 - 10:56am PT
I just love how the Black Community utilizes the "N'a" word amongst one another without any hesitation. Pretty much second nature actually. Even them little kids

also the word CRACKER!
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 13, 2015 - 11:01am PT
Hey Pyro... add some melted white CHEDA CHEESE to them CRACKA's and all is good.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Dec 13, 2015 - 11:20am PT
have a good day Chief!
have fun fly'n for fish..
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 13, 2015 - 11:24am PT
I just love how the Black Community utilizes the "N'a" word amongst one another without any hesitation. Pretty much second nature actually. Even the little kids.

But when some racist "Whitey" even breaths the an N, watch the fk out! Stone the mofo and off with his pee pee!

Priceless...

Quoted in case Chief's account gets deleted.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 13, 2015 - 11:26am PT
And the times they are a changin'.



First Women Elected to Public Office in Saudi Arabia
by REUTERS
SHARE

RIYADH — Saudi Arabians voted 17 women into public office in municipal elections in the conservative Islamic kingdom on Saturday, the first to allow female participation, a state-aligned news site reported on Sunday.

The election was the first in which women could vote and run as candidates, a landmark step in a country where women are barred from driving and are legally dependent on a male relative to approve almost all their major life decisions.

Sabq.org, a news website affiliated with the autocratic monarchy's Interior Ministry, reported that a total of 17 women had been elected in various parts of the country. Some results had been announced on the official Saudi Press Agency, including the victories of four women.


A Saudi woman casts her ballot at a polling center during municipal elections in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, Saturday, Dec. 12, 2015. Saudi women are heading to polling stations across the kingdom on Saturday, both as voters and candidates for the first time in this landmark election. AP
However, the election was for only two thirds of seats in municipal councils that have no lawmaking or national powers, and follows men-only polls in 2005 and 2011.

Under King Abdullah, who died in January and who announced in 2011 that women would be able to vote in this election, steps were taken for women to have a bigger public role, sending more of them to university and encouraging female employment.

However, while women's suffrage has in many other countries been a transformative moment in the quest for gender equality, its impact in Saudi Arabia is likely to be more limited due to a wider lack of democracy and continued social conservatism.

Before Abdullah announced women would take part in this year's elections, the country's Grand Mufti, its most senior religious figure, described women's involvement in politics as "opening the door to evil".

Huda al-Jeraisy, who as the daughter of a former head of the chamber of commerce in the conservative central part of the kingdom was seen by some Saudis as imparting an official stamp of approval on women's candidature, won a seat in Riyadh.

Salma bint Hazab al-Otaibi won a seat in the Madrika district of Mecca, the holiest city of Islam. Lama bint Abdulaziz al-Sulaiman, Rasha Hafza, Sana Abdulatif Abdulwahab al-Hamam and Massoumeh al-Reda won seats in Jeddah.

In northern Saudi Arabia, Hanouf bint Mufreh bin Ayad al-Hazimi won a seat in al-Jawf, Mina Salman Saeed al-Omairi and Fadhila Afnan Muslim al-Attawi both won seats in the Northern Borders province.

Two women won seats in al-Ahsa in Eastern Province, but their names were not immediately released. Elsewhere in the province, Khadra al-Mubarak won a seat in Qatif district. In the southern Jazan province, Aisha bint Hamoud Ali Bakri won a seat.

In Qassim, traditionally the most conservative part of the country, two women were elected but their names were not immediately released. Another was elected in al-Babtain district.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 13, 2015 - 11:31am PT
Are those alien/African hybrids phillo?

Edit: let the union of concerned proctologists here attack my azz, Chief. Frigging homo's anyway.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 13, 2015 - 11:32am PT
Oh yur sooooooooooooooooooo foooked now Rick S!!!^^^^^^^^^^^^






I will second that HDDJ...


HighDesertDJ

Trad climber

Dec 13, 2015 - 11:24am PT
I just love how the Black Community utilizes the "N'a" word amongst one another without any hesitation. Pretty much second nature actually. Even the little kids.

But when some racist "Whitey" even breaths the an N, watch the fk out! Stone the mofo and off with his pee pee!

Priceless...

Quoted in case Chief's account gets deleted.

Let me round up some Hip Hop Vids and post em for "Clarity".


EDIT:

Here we go.

Let's begin with one from one of them MULTI MILLIONAIRE's you disdain so much and one that Bernie will "TRY" to tax the living shet out of to pay for all his freebe's..


[Click to View YouTube Video]
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Dec 13, 2015 - 11:36am PT
There are some people who get a pass for using terms like "gook" "skinny" "kraut" "jap" or whatever.

Those that get a pass are the ones who faced them in WAR.


no

HDDJ..I really dont know how to communicate military culture or it's importance when it involves actual military realities. How that experience changes a human being ...

Its something I grew up around but did not personally live... but it's real..it is also important if you want an effective military.

Like I said.It is appropriate based on where he comes from.. which is a very real place you don't want to come from.

The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 13, 2015 - 11:50am PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Lightning Boy Strikes again....^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You GO Philo... GO!!!
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 13, 2015 - 11:54am PT
I will and you'll be gone.
d-know

Trad climber
electric lady land
Dec 13, 2015 - 11:57am PT
I'm a jingo
Yes I am,
I killed
People for
Uncle sam.

Left, Left,
Left, right,
Left.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Dec 13, 2015 - 12:00pm PT
Sometimes I really begin to understand why veterans detest civilians at some level.

Cheif I dont always agree with ya.. sometimes I know you are just trolling and have a much more nuanced opinion than you present. Anyway..I'm glad you are here. You make more sense to me than most of these trolls even when I disagree with ya...heh

philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 13, 2015 - 12:02pm PT
In cases like this perhaps the reverse is equally true.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Dec 13, 2015 - 12:03pm PT
No it is not.. sadly you'd have to have a realistic perspective of both sides to make that judgement. Something most here cannot do.

How to explain the really amazing good things our military does during wartime..all the while calling those they help by politically inappropriate labels behind their back?? Uhm and yeah they kill people too. Very definately

It is a different culture but a good one in many ways I have a hard time explaining. The culture shock for folks when they leave it and return to civilian life is often terribly intense.

What was appropriate and actually proper in the military becomes something interpreted very differently by civilians.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 13, 2015 - 12:05pm PT
You're on a roll Philo... keep em coming.


You too LOcker.



GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Vrooooooooooooooooooooooom.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Dec 13, 2015 - 12:08pm PT
Yeah it is different..a lot different. You expect more from a human being than most are capable of.

Gut level emotional reaction trumps intellectual knowledge.

Anyway The Chief sure does not need my support on this thread.. I'm as likely as anyone to have an argument with him next..lol

But in this case you guys got a little window into the reality of military life and you didn't like or understand what you saw.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 13, 2015 - 12:28pm PT
It would be a shame if this thread was nuked.
johntp

Trad climber
socal
Dec 13, 2015 - 12:40pm PT
^
Is that what I think it is?

edit: I'm offended I say, completely offended!
jstan

climber
Dec 13, 2015 - 12:40pm PT
To start with, in my opinion, we are evolved as a pack animal and so we naturally find circumstances as pictured above to be horrible. No matter who the afflicted. That said, I think we also need to face reality. What are we willing to do about this and what are the chances we will see our efforts as being successful by the time 2200 rolls around? A devil of a question since we see the future dimly at best.

These questions are not highly personal in nature, but they pose another question that we may actually address and do something about. Why does this discussion, and others on ST, become highly personal? The idea of taking very personally a situation that no one person can repair, can't be explained without presuming something like a hidden agenda. Such as I need, above all else, to be perceived as being right or I have not done something I should have, and so need to defend myself.

In 2006 I began devoting some time to ST because my experience with climbers as a population convinced me they are a very serious and immensely able group. They were able to address difficult questions realistically in the 1970's, leaving me deeply impressed. People with the abilities I saw before are still here in substantial numbers IMO, but somehow as a group we now seem unable to surmount the noise.

If we can't surmount the noise, all of our hard earned potential will amount to nothing.
Norton

Social climber
Dec 13, 2015 - 12:49pm PT
this really is a great thread
RyanD

climber
Dec 13, 2015 - 01:48pm PT
Holy moly, the chief, you are still doing this??!!

You are the whitest dude on Supertopo.

I mean this in the most detrimental way.

What you have done gives you no "pass" to be a Rasict piece of sh#t.

Your attitude does as much or more damage to your own country than any terrorist could ever hope for. They don't need to do much when there is Americans out there like you who are happy to destroy the foundation of your society all on your own by peddaling hatred.

Same thing they are trying to do. They just need to steer you a bit here and there. It's simple subversion tactics designed for simple minds that cannot process real information. Even when it is presented clearly and concisely right in front of them. Check the video below, made in the 80's and see how it parallels with the way things are in the U.S. today, the kgb aspect may be irrelevant but I found some of the examples available off the top of my head to be facinating.


[Click to View YouTube Video]




"Ideological subversion is the process, which is legitimate, overt, and open; you can see it with your own eyes. All you have to do, all American mass media has to do, is to unplug their bananas from their ears, open up their eyes, and they can see it. There is no mystery. [It has] nothing to do with espionage. I know that espionage intelligence-gathering looks more romantic. It sells more deodorants through the advertising, probably. That’s why your Hollywood producers are so crazy about James Bond-type of thrillers." Yuri Bezmenov of the KGB

"But in reality, the main emphasis of the KGB is not in the area of intelligence at all. According to my opinion and [the] opinion of many defectors of my caliber, only about 15% of time, money, and manpower [are] spent on espionage as such. The other 85% is a slow process, which we call either ‘ideological subversion,’ or ‘active measures’—‘[?]’ in the language of the KGB—or ‘psychological warfare.’ What it basically means is, to change the perception of reality, of every American, to such an extent that despite of the abundance of information, no one is able to come to sensible conclusions in the interests of defending themselves, their families, their community and their country." Yuri Bezmenov of the KGB

Four steps to Ideological subversion:

Demoralize
Destabilization
Crisis
Normalization








Signed-


Someone who just wasted their time responding to the chief.






rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 13, 2015 - 02:22pm PT
A little angry, eh Ryan? Intolerant, bigoted, and a racist pig out to destroy white folk also.
d-know

Trad climber
electric lady land
Dec 13, 2015 - 02:38pm PT
A little ball cupping, eh Rick?
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Dec 13, 2015 - 02:40pm PT
You PC crybabies.

When in combat you can call your enemy any name you want.

So fuk you!!!

That was the Chief's original point all along until you loons ran with it in your own stoopid projecting bigoted directed onto the Chief.

Stoopid topo loon people do this en mass all the time.

+1 Wbraun
Norton

Social climber
Dec 13, 2015 - 03:34pm PT

looks like he has a Fender Strat that color coordinates nicely with his piece

what's not to like?
Norton

Social climber
Dec 13, 2015 - 03:56pm PT
More likely to be a Squier...

ah yes, why does he look like he reminds me of someone who posts frequently?
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Dec 13, 2015 - 04:35pm PT
Everytime I see that tape, I wonder why the door gun has the field bipod.
Norton

Social climber
Dec 13, 2015 - 04:54pm PT
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Dec 13, 2015 - 05:23pm PT
LMAO...
F

climber
away from the ground
Dec 13, 2015 - 05:49pm PT



The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......

Dec 13, 2015 - 05:26pm PT
Let's see some more of your 1st grade Photog work... Luccker.




As I see it, I have occupied at least two hours of your "brain" day today. The smoke surely has to be spewing out of that half shaved head of yours.

Fking Racist SKINNY Killer



Credit: Locker


And I didn't have to lead them so much, either, Luucker. Cus their skinny jihadist innocent unarmed women and children slaughtering legs couldn't move fast enough.



HA HA HA HA HA HA...........



Ummm you are a sociopath.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Dec 13, 2015 - 06:01pm PT
Interesting (or way f*#king depressing) signal-to-noise ratio on this thread.

jstan posted this:

In 2006 I began devoting some time to ST because my experience with climbers as a population convinced me they are a very serious and immensely able group. They were able to address difficult questions realistically in the 1970's, leaving me deeply impressed. People with the abilities I saw before are still here in substantial numbers IMO, but somehow as a group we now seem unable to surmount the noise.

If we can't surmount the noise, all of our hard earned potential will amount to nothing.

A call to us all to rein in our pettiness and put some effort into solving serious problems.

A good post. Which was followed by a blistering personal attack. Noise to the max.

John, I salute you for your futile attempt to lead us to common sense and civility, but with people like Philo and The Chief unable to rein in their hatred of themselves -- which translates on Supertopo to hatred of everybody else -- you're just pissing into the wind.
F

climber
away from the ground
Dec 13, 2015 - 06:03pm PT
I guess some people in the world are serious and sincere. And some are sociopaths. And some people believe in reincarnation and global wide conspiracy theories.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 13, 2015 - 06:04pm PT

Definitely did not have to lead you atal "F" cus your lazy wanna-be BC skiing dubious azz doesn't ... WAX!

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA......


"Aint sticky unwaxed ski's Hell!"
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 13, 2015 - 06:48pm PT
philo

climber

Topic Author's Reply - Dec 13, 2015 - 06:40pm PT
How many baby "skinnys" did you kill duh chuff?
Did you ever lose sleep over the disassembled "baby body parts"?

Every damn one that was shooting their Kalashnikov or RPG at me or at any of my Shipmates Philo. That's what your Hard Earned Tax Money paid me to do. And believe me, you and the rest here got their money's worth.


Got a problem with that Philo?

Or are you just pissed cus I don't post any more photos to equate to your shetfest photo posts... Philo?
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Dec 13, 2015 - 08:00pm PT
Why Chris McNamara allows The Chief to hijack his website is anyone's guess.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 13, 2015 - 08:18pm PT
Really dreljefe, really?
If you equate the sickness presented by the chief with anyone countering him then you are probably the one needing help.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Dec 13, 2015 - 08:50pm PT
They sell Fix All in 20 lb. bags at the local crank loon store...It's right next to the nutcase...
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 13, 2015 - 09:47pm PT
No my nephew is black and an honorable man.
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 13, 2015 - 10:05pm PT
Nope. My Nephew would find duh chuff dispicable and disgraceful
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 13, 2015 - 10:09pm PT
What's your point Philo....


That you keep getting a pass for posting up nice vile bloody photos and anyone that posts anything of the same but counter to your bs gets notified by the management that their photos are offensive?

Or..

You get a pass by all your Tribal bros and sis's here for posting shet vile photos but god forbid anyone that is not in the "clique" that does the same gets ratted on and then told to remove their "offensive" photo/s.

Or...

That you can't help yourself and keep starting then perpetuating these completely useless threads of yours and you and your buddies here go completely apeshet on anyone that throws in a counter punch. Then like a bunch of rabid sex depraved dogs, you jump on them and then basically gang bang the shet outta of em for doing so.

Or...

You just want to continue posting more pathetic hypocrisy:

philo

climber

Topic Author's Reply - Dec 13, 2015 - 08:18pm PT
Really dreljefe, really?
If you equate the sickness presented by the chief with anyone countering him then you are probably the one needing help.


Followed by this well thought out intelligent superb post...

philo

climber

Topic Author's Reply - Dec 13, 2015 - 09:39pm PT



Utterly priceless Philo.



The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 13, 2015 - 10:25pm PT
philo

climber

Topic Author's Reply - Dec 13, 2015 - 09:47pm PT
No my nephew is black and an honorable man.

And....
philo

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 13, 2015 - 10:32pm PT
And, My Nephew would find duh chuff dispicable and disgraceful.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 14, 2015 - 05:31am PT
Philo- Chief is clearly unable to peaceably resolve his own internal feelings at what he experienced during his service in Somalia and it presents in what we see here. You can't argue someone out of a position they didn't argue themselves into and madbolter is mostly correct, you are stooping to some very low and very unnecessary levels in an attempt to make Chief "wrong." Chief can be wrong for his racism without being personally attacked for his service. In Chief's mind his racism is completely justified and you aren't going to get him to a point where he says "wow I guess I am wrong here" and you're making yourself look just as bad as he is in the process. Can you please dial it back about 90%?

*edit* Thanks, philo. Post deletion was appropriate. No more rageposting after 4 Old-E's, ok? ;)
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 14, 2015 - 06:35am PT
I think the wheels have fallen off this thread....
dirtbag

climber
Dec 14, 2015 - 06:44am PT
^^^Yep.^^^^
overwatch

climber
Dec 14, 2015 - 06:45am PT
If you think before you post back delete won't be necessary. That is some picture, Mr. Hocking, fulfilling some nightmare
monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 14, 2015 - 07:00am PT
Philo and The Chief got into a pic war, and both lost.
overwatch

climber
Dec 14, 2015 - 07:06am PT
Entirely predictable. Philo ,thru the years, has a history of posting violent, graphic images and incendiary posts to support his current "cause". Posted typically late at night, or early am, He deletes the offending material before the owner take notice, laying low, and avoiding any repercussions from the management, all the while, complaining about his adversaries tactics.

Rocking heel to toe, hands clasped behind his back, looking up into the air whistling
SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
Dec 14, 2015 - 07:07am PT

Phew!


Susan
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 14, 2015 - 07:15am PT
I can't believe the admins let this sh#t show go on as long as it did. Two wrongs don't make a right.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 14, 2015 - 07:19am PT
Both accounts appear to still be in existence so either the admins got better admin tools or they deleted their own stuff. Either way...let this thread die.
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Dec 14, 2015 - 07:20am PT
Bump for a great thread
monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 14, 2015 - 07:21am PT
Look closer, HDDJ,

http://www.supertopo.com/inc/view_profile.php?dcid=Oz44NTQ5OiQ,

http://www.supertopo.com/inc/view_profile.php?dcid=PDg9PTU7PSc,
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 14, 2015 - 07:23am PT
Ah you're right. I didn't know that was an option. Well deserved.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 14, 2015 - 07:30am PT
^ +100000000000000
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 14, 2015 - 07:31am PT
It's going to be a long winter. The squirrels here all have real bushy tails.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 14, 2015 - 07:51am PT
Too bad they couldn't exercise more impulse control. Both fellas had a lot to offer.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 14, 2015 - 08:05am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 14, 2015 - 08:06am PT
Losing your pic posting ability would go along way to curb the bully impulse posting.

Next vid, TGT: Kids accidentally shooting their siblings for gun control
overwatch

climber
Dec 14, 2015 - 08:08am PT
Make them sit in the corner and count the dust

Edit;

As the thread slowly sinks to oblivion
Fish Finder

climber
Dec 14, 2015 - 08:13am PT
I have never met philo but always wondered how he had so much time to post and pull up so many memes

The time he was messin with mussy and called the FBI was epic
I dont have an opinion on him as I have no personal experience


I have met cheif and agree that he had a lot to offer


It does seem like that was their thread (coupled together as enemies)
They had found their home and were being noticed, for supertopo it must be an embarrassing shlt show but good for the button numbers.

crap like that doesnt need to be in the top 5 threads for so long because two people with a lot of time on their hands just want to play in a sand box



Alpamayo

Trad climber
Davis, CA
Dec 14, 2015 - 08:20am PT
Good riddance both of ya.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 14, 2015 - 08:30am PT
Locker's the one who needs a hug today. What the hell's he going to do for grab-ass now?
Fish Finder

climber
Dec 14, 2015 - 08:34am PT


I think Locker always get a bye

you know... for all the glue he has sniffed

just sayin


Edit: minus the BBP incident
Gary

Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
Dec 14, 2015 - 08:41am PT
As a friend was saying last night, climbers have a very strong bond. When you are belaying, you hold someone's life in your hand. That's not an everyday responsibility. When you go on belay, you are placing your life in the hands of another, again, something that doesn't happen every day to the man in the street.

So you become family in a way. Much is forgiven or overlooked because there's something more important involved: the bond.

On ST you have climbers who have never climbed together, never established that bond. And without that bond we get threads like this one.
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