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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 24, 2015 - 06:45pm PT
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We're considering buying a Subaru Outback or Forester to replace one of our very-low-ground-clearance sedans. i'd appreciate your thoughts on which you prefer.
Thanks.
John
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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Nov 24, 2015 - 07:00pm PT
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the fet...why did you need new head gaskets...? Overheated engine..? curious my daughter has a 2005...rj
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christoph benells
Trad climber
Tahoma, Ca
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Nov 24, 2015 - 07:10pm PT
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the subaru head gaskets (at least on the mid 2000's models) have to be replaced every 100,000 miles.
thats what i heard from everyone when it happened to me. I thought it was a sweet deal, used car, 1 owner, 100,000 miles...
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 24, 2015 - 07:19pm PT
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I had read they fixed the head gasket issue around 2001 but I guess not. :-(
My car never overheated or anything. They just started leaking and the coolant can then get in the cylinders and ruin the engine so you have to do them.
If you look at subys in the index above you'll see they only rate average in long term reliability. 50% while Toyotas are better than 80-90% of all cars.
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c wilmot
climber
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Nov 24, 2015 - 07:23pm PT
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My 2006 subaru is still going with 130,000 miles (knock on wood). Nice car. Its gone everywhere. Only issue has been a crankwheel that fell off due to faulty work when the time-belt was replaced.
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looks easy from here
climber
Ben Lomond, CA
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Nov 24, 2015 - 07:29pm PT
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Based off my research looking at cars last year, Foresters are gutless (two friends own them, and they're miserable going up a grade or at elevation), Outback's head gasket problem can be mitigated by buying the 6-cyl, but comes with a $$ premium.
I was considering an Outback pretty strongly before settling on my '04 Honda CRV. Absolutely no regrets with my decision. Great interior room, small exterior, great clearance, good in the mountains.
$0.02
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 24, 2015 - 07:29pm PT
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Ground clearance and Subaru is an oxymoron.
If you need ground clearance get a truck.
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Willoughby
Social climber
Truckee, CA
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Nov 24, 2015 - 07:49pm PT
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Heard some rumor about a class-action suit in the works 'cause of all that oil-burning, head-gasket stuff. It's nigh on 2016 and high time for them to square that situation.
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looks easy from here
climber
Ben Lomond, CA
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Nov 24, 2015 - 07:51pm PT
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Horizontal layout is space efficient, but leads to pooling. Surprise! /sarcasm
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doughnutnational
Gym climber
its nice here in the spring
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Nov 24, 2015 - 08:03pm PT
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Heard some rumor about a class-action suit in the works 'cause of all that oil-burning, head-gasket stuff. It's nigh on 2016 and high time for them to square that situation. These are two different issues. The oil burning issue is in newer 4cyl. engines. We have 2014 Forester that was burning over a quart of oil per 1000 miles with less than 20,000 miles on the engine. After numerous oil consumption tests we got a new engine. Hopefully that solves the problem.
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rwedgee
Ice climber
CA
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Nov 24, 2015 - 08:33pm PT
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Subaru has the head gasket issue up until even the 2009 engine. Google "Subaru head gasket". They will leak either into the engine(type 1 leak), to the exterior(type 2 leak), or both. The trick is to not over heat when they eventually do get low on coolant. Small volume of coolant so they get hot fast and before you know it you need a head job....don't we all. Not your type Charlie.
Look on Craigslist and you will see Subis advertised with the heads done. A lot are on the dealers dime. They are bomber after the new gaskets are installed. They used an inferior material and the coolant ate them. Been there and done the Lesbaru thing.
Still have two Foresters as they have a little more room than the outback so I can carry more lesbians.
Hope that helps.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Nov 24, 2015 - 08:46pm PT
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toyota tacoma you're welcome
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Fossil climber
Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
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Nov 24, 2015 - 08:49pm PT
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Forester is ubiquitous in the NW of Canada and the US, gets great ratings in consumer mags. Still, you can always get a lemon. Not cheap though. Up here, anyway.
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Nov 24, 2015 - 08:51pm PT
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I buy my cars new and sell them at 125-150k miles. I owned two outbacks previously and now we have a forrester. I've never had any trouble with any of them.
We switched to the forrester because in 2011 (when we bought the most recent car), the forrester had better clearance and was more comfortable for my long legged husband to drive. I've slept in the back of both vehicles, don't know if that's a factor for you. The outback was more comfortable to sleep in. Don't know if that is still true. The new outbacks are bigger than the old ones and more expensive than the forrester.
Just go test drive both of them and see how they feel to you. I love my Subarus.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 24, 2015 - 08:55pm PT
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Don't listen to these yuppies here!
Get a helicopter.
Just think of all the savings you'll get on tires and brake pad replacements ....
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Daphne
Trad climber
Northern California
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Nov 24, 2015 - 09:06pm PT
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I'm almost one year in with my Forester. Have been on some very rough roads with it and feel very comfortable with its clearance and handling. As phylp reminds me, it's an AWD, not a 4WD though. Not appropriate for the designated 4wd climbing access roads at Shuteye, for example.
My gas mileage is not great, apparently I have a heavy foot. YMMV. Lol (between 25 and 26 mpg city)-
My main complaint is that the steering is a little shaky in high winds. I find i often hold the wheel steady with my knee on the golden gate bridge. Also, wtf were they thinking with not putting an overhead rear hatch light? I've installed my own stick on light back there. I used to have a 6cyl and notice the difference mainly when leaving a full stop. On grades and hills it feels completely responsive to my foot on the gas pedal.
And i love the backup camera, the moonroof, the seat warmers and the blutooth connectivity
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 24, 2015 - 09:43pm PT
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I still like my suby it's a pleasure to drive and still drives like new. But I dont think I'd go that route again.
When I bought it suby was rated #3 to Toyota and Honda in "long term reliability". Turns out jd power and consumer reports long term is 3 years. That's not long term to me. I've had my suby for 9 years. So I'm glad I found the real long term index above so I can really see what cars will go 200k or more.
I just bought a Toyota with 50k for about half what it cost when new. And I'll likely run it to 200k hopefully with no issues. To me that's a great value. But YMMV, some people want new cars. Some people want cheap cars and don't mind spending their time working on them. I just cringe at that huge depreciation in the first few years. I'd rather spend that money on travel.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Nov 24, 2015 - 09:55pm PT
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I owned an '85 GL SW (predecessor to Outback) that I put 315K miles on it before it finally bit the dust. I did a lot of work on it (2 engines, lotsa brakes & CV joints, remodelled the interior for road warrior duty) but still loved it.
When it finally died, I got an '02 Outback which I had for a coupla years until I started building my house, and just couldn't haul enough stuff. That Outback was awesome too- those rigs are unbelievably stable on funky roads. I could haul ass safely through snow or rain- try as I might, I could never spin the damn thing.
Subarus have a lot of quirks to them- it's good to have a mechanic who knows them well. They're kinda like VW's that way- people either love them (and their quirks) or aren't crazy about them at all.
Since I needed more hauling ability, I went Tacoma. It's a fantastic truck, but nowhere near as stable on funky roads (um....cuz it's a truck.) YMMV!!
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Nov 24, 2015 - 11:43pm PT
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Former mechanic and 8 time subaru owner here.
A few things to note:
-Forester is built on the Impreza platform. Tighter turning radius, better approach/depart angles. Taller airy greenhouse.
-Outback is built on Legacy platform, longer overhangs, lesser approach/depart angle. Has gotten much more expensive if considering new.
-All 3 high clearance subys are the same at 8.7" clearance.
-The newer (2011 and up) have the new FB type engine, it does have some oil consumption issues, there are TSB's on it. I have one and it consumes but isnt problematic.
The Rav4 and HIghlander and CRV all have inferior AWD systems (Haldex-the 'slip to grip' type). This might matter if you live in a snowy area, might not if AWD isnt as crucial on the day-to-day. Basically this means that the front wheels have to break traction in order for the rears to engage. Youtube for AWD comparisons between them, there are many and universally, the subaru fares the best.
Honda/Acura makes SH-AWD which is quite good, the only one that can enter the ring with subarus and audi's AWD systems. Its not available on their popular CRV and Pilot though.Ive driven them all, and if I lived not here in snow country, any would do, but if its crucial, you cant beat a subaru. Ive never had any of mine leave me stranded except due to my own retardation.
JD Power means nothing. Most of those ratings and so on mean nothing, they dont relate to the real world. Its all strengths and weaknesses and how they apply or interact with your needs. They all have their strong suits and faults.
A good mechanic is your friend, Subarus are not quirky in the respect that they are difficult to maintain or repair, rather mechanics are more often quirky, combined with the car owners' lack of knowledge, can make any car seem quirky. All machines are imperfect, they all have the possibility of failure. They all take proper care and maintenance, which is the downfall of most all peoples car troubles no matter the brand. The fact does remain, most people do not, whether because of being unaware or unwilling, take proper care of their cars. People mostly wait for stuff to break, then give it attention. This holds true for any car.
Currently own a 2006 WRX since new, now has over 200k miles on it, original engine and transmission. Never stranded, never broken or out of comission. Always have done the proper maintenance at the proper times. With any car, if you dont do this, you invite failure. I would not hesitate to jump in it and drive cross country anytime. It pulls hard, gets great mpg still, never gives me any trouble.
Also own a 2015 Forester 2.5i Premium. Its great, airy and huge sunroof, ample power, plenty of room and mild off road ability. The oil consumption issue is well documented ( began in 2011 models, then in 2012 in the Impreza models with the 2.0l engine, but they have made good on cases with manifestations.) Mine hasnt consumed oil to the point of being a problem, my oil change interval comes around before I have to add. Its more pronounced on manual trans models. I can link you a thread on it if youd like.
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Nov 25, 2015 - 12:07am PT
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These are two different issues. The oil burning issue is in newer 4cyl. engines. We have 2014 Forester that was burning over a quart of oil per 1000 miles with less than 20,000 miles on the engine. After numerous oil consumption tests we got a new engine. Hopefully that solves the problem.
They probably gave you the overfill test, then hopefully a shortblock or rebuild. They thought it was the oil control rings initially, but after revision, the problem has only lessened. They also use the super thin oil that most mfr's use now to help mpg. They seem to be making good on it. Mine hasnt persisted, only one low oil light, within first 5000 miles, then never again. The GF's outgoing 2012 Impreza had issue, now her 2015 XV does not. Still a little all over the place.
On the subject of their 4wd ability, I have gotten my Forester to places I never thought I could. Ive pulled up to a few places and been the only non truck there. Also, Ive even gotten my WRX up to the george creek trailhead as well. So much comes down to the driver, etc. My WRX is lowered about 1" on more aggressive suspension and still made it with careful driving and lots of cargo.
The head gasket issue was most prominent with the DOHC EJ25, the engine used in Foresters from 98-01, 2.5RS 98-99, and in Outbacks 97-99 IIRC. That was less of a fluke and cooked at cyl #3 IIRC. The ones after that were more of a fluke, but were prominent enough to get a TSB.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Nov 25, 2015 - 12:44am PT
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Bought a 2015 Forester. Not real happy with it. If I had it to do over I'd buy another Highlander.
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Nov 25, 2015 - 12:55am PT
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Elaborate. The highlander is a Camry based CUV, the Forester is based on a smaller car, they dont really have equivalents straight across between brands. Everyone has their reasons for liking the cars they do, its all about finding what is best for you and your needs.
The Highlander is quite bigger than the Forester, they arent apples to apples.
Subaru is and will always be short on options and creature comforts for sure, and their accoutrements will always be a couple model years behind the big makers'.
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Nov 25, 2015 - 04:35am PT
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I forgot, a good place for subaru research is cars101.com
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doughnutnational
Gym climber
its nice here in the spring
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Nov 25, 2015 - 06:12am PT
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They probably gave you the overfill test, then hopefully a shortblock We got a new short block. Otherwise I like the car. It is roomy, good in the snow, good clearance and comfortable. We have the manual transmission and I wish it had a lower 1st gear for the minimal off roading I do in it.
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Nov 25, 2015 - 06:41am PT
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Me too, Ive had 8 MT subarus, this is the numbest shifter and clutch ever. Its the cable operated shifter from the previous legacy. Supposedly the MT cars exhibit more oil consumption than the CVT cars.
If youre interested to read up more and see others' plights: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2690656
Most folks seem to get taken care of well with the exception of the over-emotional and occasional terrible dealer. SOA has taken good care of me in the past with an air pump issue, hopefully they got it solved.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 25, 2015 - 06:46am PT
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John, we have a 13 year old Outback and a 7 year old Forrester and love them both.the AWD is fantastic for snow country and they both are surprisingly good on off road travel. The short wheel base and AWD allows you to travel what are considered bad 4WD roads.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Nov 25, 2015 - 06:49am PT
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Elaborate. The highlander is a Camry based CUV, the Forester is based on a smaller car, they dont really have equivalents straight across between brands. Everyone has their reasons for liking the cars they do, its all about finding what is best for you and your needs.
The forester is under powered. Pressing on the gas pedal is an act of faith and not enough for evasive action. If it came with a 6 cylinder it would be nice.
The subie does not have adequate stash pockets. Every time I have to hit the brakes crap goes flying everywhere.
Tourqu is too high at minimum speeds; it just wants to gun it when you want to pull into a parking space or such.
Overall it is a decent car, but not what I want. I drive in Orange County CA. Off road it is okay. It is AWD, not 4WD.
edit: Jim. maybe your thoughts are correct; mine are based on the 2015 model.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 25, 2015 - 08:20am PT
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wtf were they thinking with not putting an overhead rear hatch light? I've installed my own stick on light back there
Had the same issue with the hamstermobile. They put a puny little light down on one side so if there's anything in the back it's worthless.
Magnetic stick on light from the welding supply store works great.
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Nov 25, 2015 - 08:43am PT
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The forester is under powered. Pressing on the gas pedal is an act of faith and not enough for evasive action. If it came with a 6 cylinder it would be nice.
The subie does not have adequate stash pockets. Every time I have to hit the brakes crap goes flying everywhere.
Tourqu is too high at minimum speeds; it just wants to gun it when you want to pull into a parking space or such.
Overall it is a decent car, but not what I want. I drive in Orange County CA. Off road it is okay. It is AWD, not 4WD.
edit: Jim. maybe your thoughts are correct; mine are based on the 2015 model.
I agree on the power, the 2.5i is a bit anemic, especially if you have the CVT. I have the manual, and I dont feel as wanton for power. That said, I also have a fast car for my jollys. You can get the Forester in XT with whats nearly the new WRX's powerplant and upgraded CVT but its a hike in price.
Also agreed on the interior, subaru has most always had underengineered interiors and electronics, theyre just a few model years behind others, a curse of being a small maker.
Sounds mostly like poor match for your needs. Do you ever need AWD out of it like to go skiing or? I cant wait for the day when I buy a non AWD car. Ill always have one one way or another but a nice fun car on the side without the practical restrictions will be great.
If you dont need strong AWD or AWD at all, youre just bathing in choices, you lucky devil.
Ive also found, through running it through its paces on dirt roads and on more severe and slow crawly roads, that the traction control is best disabled on the slower crawly stuff. Not like the Rubicon trail or anything, but terrain where the tacomas and crawlers will look at you funny when you come over a crest into view.
I think the base level audio interface with bluetooth and the ipod connectivity is far behind the competition as well. Sometimes I think it has demons built in, it has little 'fits' occasionally. Ive heard the Harmon Kardon is far better.
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Nov 25, 2015 - 08:51am PT
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Forgot to mention, Im very glad I leased mine. I like it overall and it fits my needs way more than the 2006 WRX Wagon (fun, yes, small, yes, low, yes). I like it but not enough to buy it after or lease another.
Unless some more refinement happens, Ill be looking at their new offerings which are forthcoming, a 7 passenger SUV to replace the barely noticed Tribeca, and another smaller one, not sure what the name will be.
Ill always have a strong Subaru car in my arsenal. Ive pulled F150's out of the ditch more than once with my WRX. You cant not have one and live in Tahoe. The lady will daily drive the crosstrek, Ill sell my WRX and return the Forester when the time comes in '17 and I will be buying a truck, possibly the Chevy Colorado diesel, but hopefully the Japanese makers will ofer theirs in US market. Diesel, 4x4, four wheel camper, done.....and Ill have some sort of cheap fun impractical car, miata? hopped up old volvo?
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TrackerTodd
Mountain climber
CA
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Nov 25, 2015 - 08:52am PT
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Everything Budda said. The head gasket issue was primarily an issue with the 04-05 Forester and that was fixed. I have two Subarus now and sold one many years ago and never had a head gasket problem . As far as being under power if you get the XT like I have it has plenty of power to get up and go. Im sadly selling mine soon simply because I need a truck to haul bikes and motorcycles.Good luck in your search.
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Nov 25, 2015 - 08:54am PT
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I wasnt even aware of the 04-05's having issue. Your FXT you mean? Thats otherwise an STI block without the forged internals and oil squirters. Sucks they had issue.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 25, 2015 - 09:13am PT
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Suby's "symetical" awd works great. I remember the first time I had mine in the snow in an empty parking lot and it was almost impossible to spin out or make it lose control in any way. I had to pull the e-brake to make it spin.
The drawback is it costs a little in mpg since it's always on. A benefit is that since it's always on you are more likely to retain control if you hit an unexpected ice patch or need to make a quick maneuver.
You can check out Suby's numbers here: http://tradeinqualityindex.com/reports/Subaru.html
e.g. Forester's are traded in at an average of 132K and 11.8% of them have engine issues. It rates at 42/100, below average :-(
RAV4's have tranny issues. Which is a bummer because it would be Toyota's closest thing to a suby. But the highlander is well rated. 85/100 well above average. Traded in at 147K with 4% having engine issues. I was impressed with the newer Highlanders. Very solid feeling, off road capable. Tows a good amount. But not the best mpg.
http://tradeinqualityindex.com/reports/Toyota.html
When I was deciding between a Suby and a CRV or RAV4 in 2006 the Suby felt more solid. The others felt like tin cans. And it handled much better since it wasn't as top heavy, but had just as much interior room. But I would hope the Hondas/RAV4 have gotten better since then.
If I was going to buy a car new and sell it at 100K, or lease it, I'd probably go Suby. But I would like to keep a car until 200K, since it costs WAY less for that 2nd 100K. Like 1/4 the cost. When you add up insurance, sales tax, etc. You can save multiple 10s of thousands of $. And if you finance it, that's even more $$$.
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Nov 25, 2015 - 10:02am PT
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I owned a Subaru in NZ and one is Seattle; oil consumption problems with the Stateside car forced sale. I now have a V6 Rav4 and really like the car. The V6 is really nice for acceleration and mileage is only about 1 mpg less than the 4 cylinder. Since purchase I've averaged 23.5 mpg over 120k miles. The only problem I've had was a O2 sensor @ 35k. No oil consumption or other issues and I'm getting ready to do the first non-oil change type maintenance on it, changing spark plugs. Unfortunately I understand they no longer make the V6 so will make this one last.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 25, 2015 - 10:21am PT
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Thanks, everyone, for the fantastic response. Decision time isn't immediate, so feel free to keep them coming, but that could change at any point. I managed to get myself in the doghouse last night (by preheting the oven (whose light was out) to bake some cornbread for stuffing, unaware that my wife had a dutch oven's worth of dough in the oven, rising to make choreg (an Armenian pastry) today). It may take a very significant bribe to make it back to her good graces.
John
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John M
climber
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Nov 25, 2015 - 10:28am PT
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Thanks Buddhastalin, for all that great information.
I bought a 2002 Honda CRV last year. I had it on snow only one time last winter. Ack.. hated it. Part of it is the tires.. summer tires, but part is also what Buddha said, to engage the rear, the front have to slip. This is to me a big deal in winter driving. I would rather not lose that tiny bit of control every time I need 4wd. I will see what happens once I get better tires on it.
the other thing I don't like about that year is how much everything shudders when the ABS engages. Egad.. glad I was warned about it.
I previously drove an 88 Nissan pathfinder. What a difference.
….
I have driven my friends 2000 outback. That thing is solid on snow and ice. She said she bought the outback because the forester was less solid. More tin in the forester. I think they do a better job on the forester now. Not sure though. I'm tall and have a hard time getting into an outback. Thats another issue to me.
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Nov 25, 2015 - 10:43am PT
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The ABS is the same on all the cars as far as being harsh with pedal kickback. Mine is only slightly better on both cars. But yeah the interior can add some theatre to ABS if its not trustworthy.
I would like to think that proper snow tires or good A/S tires would have improved your experience and opinion of the CRV, but its true, all haldex-type awd systems work like that.
The mpg thing is the definite tradeoff for quality awd. Thats what the new FB and FA engines are supposed to improve upon, the outgoing EJ's lack of mpg. I had a 1.8liter EJ18 Impreza, it was a gutless wonder that didnt even get good mpg for being underpowered.
The EJ isnt even retired of duty, they still use it in the STI. They had lots of time to refine it, its like 25 years old. The FA/FB are new, like from scratch new. No more timing belt, lots of things. They are going to have to refine it thats for sure and Ive been watching for 2016 owners on the NASIOC to see how many post issues. Otherwise, I think the FB/FA is a good engine thus far. The turboed versions are going well, not much of any large issues and less oil consumption in the turbo cars it seems.
Anyway, tires are definitely every bit as important as drive configuration. Id rather have a FWD car on snow tires than an AWD car on all seasons in snowy conditions. We just got dumped on here yesterday and today, it was carnage all over for a bit there, and there were plenty of AWD, RWD, and FWD cars and even 4wd trucks in the ditch and backwards and such. You could have ten wheel drive and still put er in the ditch if youre tires arent appropriate.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Nov 25, 2015 - 10:43am PT
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Good info Buddha.
I'm driving a 2003 Forester, which became my new car after my wife got a new car. My car before that was 4Runner that had 250K on it. Probably not a surprise to say that the Forester does have head gasket issues, but so far that's only meant monitoring the oil level a little more frequently. For 150K and having been driven for over 10 yrs., that's not a big deal in my book. Combine that with the benefits we've gotten from the AWD, and I'd say we're far ahead.
This thread is also interesting to me because I'm probably going to buy something new in the next year or so. Since I'm always parking in the same lot with lots of lawyers like myself who drive MUCH nicer rigs than myself, I was thinking of going slightly upscale to something like an Audi Q5 (not superduper pricey, but has AWD), mostly because I bust my ass to support my family and feel like I've earned it. However, the more practical, dirt bag climber part of me is reminding me that a car is mostly a hunk of metal, so why not get something more practical, so I'm looking at a new Forester. Does anyone know if the oil consumption issues extend to the 2015 models? I have heard that the interiors aren't as well designed as the older versions, but that's not a huge issue to me. Curious as to any other gripes people have with the new Foresters.
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Nov 25, 2015 - 10:55am PT
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It does. Mine had a short spell of it, its a 2015. I linked a thread on page 1, its all about the FA/FB oil consumption. Apparently theyve been working on it since MY11. From what Ive seen, it seems to have improved, and it seems to affect MT cars the most. Scroll that thread and such, peoples experiences and facts and also lots of whining and poor spelling at times, but worthwhile.
I know Honda has a new Ridgeline in the works if not ready, and an Element replacement is due, if theyre going to do it. So, if they use SH-AWD on these, theyll be worthwhile. If the use that realtime crap, then that would be less appealing even though the rest of the wehicle may be good. You might research and hold out for a drive in one of those.
A german car is a definite spend. They are real nice, powerful, nice interiors, audis awd is non haldex (exc on TT and A3) and good. But they cost more to own. Also to buy, but to own. I would lease or off it before the warranty is up. Euro cars are generally more expensive to own. If youre ready for the potential of that, then youll enjoy your teutonic new ride, if not, youll hate it.
For the record Ive had some high mileage subarus,
84 GL w >160k miles and I did not maintain it at all, sold running
82 GL w 140k-destroyed by jumping like ironman stewart
96 Impreza w >180k, sold for good price in great shape
97 Outback w 160k, sold for good price in great shape (it had bad headgaskets at 3k mile and got a longblock before I owned it)
06 WRX 204k miles and just wants more, I maintain it very well, replace things that are worn or broken, run it properly, etc. Should sell for 6-8k based on what Ive seen in other ads.
15 Forester now, 22k miles, brief oil consumption issue, now has 5k miles interval, no consumption.
Others werent high miles or current
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 25, 2015 - 11:00am PT
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Since I'm always parking in the same lot with lots of lawyers like myself who drive MUCH nicer rigs than myself, I was thinking of going slightly upscale to something like an Audi Q5 (not superduper pricey, but has AWD), mostly because I bust my ass to support my family and feel like I've earned it.
My law firm had quite a collection of pricey partner vehicles. We had two Acura NSX's, a Jaguar XJ-12 A BMW 3.0CS, a Porsche 931, a Mercedes S Class and my more nondesript BMW 5 series cars. I love the handling and steering in my old BMW's (I haven't liked the newer ones). We had a fairly lucrative practice (for an area with relatively lower real estate prices) and I think we justified our conspicuous consumption by saying that it let the world know we must be good lawyers.
As I got older, though, the lure of prestige from goods has vanished. Partly, I noticed that those I admired didn't care about those things. The local gentry more often than not were farmers who drove old full-sized pickups. My wealthiest partner (who, among other things, was a member of Cypress Point) drove an aging 528e and a Chevy Impala. More importantly, I have better uses of money than trying to impress others. I'm happy driving a car with 215,000 miles on it, because I still enjoy driving it and it provides fast, reliable and entertaining transportation.
You sound like someone with the wisdom to avoid that siren song, and I hope you continue to do so. I know we share a law school alma mater, and if you're like my classmates were, it's too easy to misuse our time and resources. Keep up your practicalilty. I'll bet your peers respect that more than any car someone else may drive.
John
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Nov 25, 2015 - 11:30am PT
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I'm tall and have a hard time getting into an outback.
That was my husband's gripe about my Outback, John. The Forester fits his frame better.
Which brings up an important point about whether there is one primary driver or two people who will be driving.
The Outbacks were primarily my car, and since that was our bigger car, we would take that one on longer road trips. He always complained it was uncomfortable for him. Then my husbands little sportier car started having trouble and he decided to go back to a truck. He went out and bought a Tacoma without me. Well, we used to own a Tacoma , when it was a relatively small truck, but this newer one was considerably bigger and it was impossible for me to drive - my feet wouldn't reach the pedals. It was actually dangerous for me when I had to drive it - I had to have a big pillow behind my back and my ribs were practically on the steering wheel.
After the fact I found a website somewhere, something like, "best cars for tall people/best cars for short people" and the Tacoma was one of the worst cars for short people.
The Forester fits us both pretty well. And we both switch off driving it for different purposes so that's a good thing.
one of the reasons we went with the Subarus over other brands was they get relatively better gas mileage than other all-wheel cars (in addition to the snow/ice handling advantages). If you just go by the ratings, yes they are rated less mechanically reliable than Hondas and Toyotas but like BuddhaStalin said, if you are good about maintenance, they are fine.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 25, 2015 - 12:06pm PT
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Re: Fat dad, I was disappointed to hear about the lack of quality in German cars. They got a really good reputation in the 70s and have been riding that for years. Again check the long term index I posted. Many are average in quality or worse. I had a BMW which was really nice to drive, but little things made of plastic that should be metal kept breaking. The window regulators would break, etc. But it did have the original clutch with 140K miles on it.
If I was to buy an expensive car it would be because it's just nicer. I don't care much about prestige or image. But nice cars ARE nicer to drive and just be in. I would look at at Lexus GS which has a good optional AWD system, or an Acura TLX. Or perhaps a Lexus hybrid SUV.
Re: buddha's fun car. I was looking at the Miata recently. If it had a backseat we'd probably have one (have two kids). Very good quality. Very fun to drive. The 2005 and newer felt far more solid and peppy than the earlier ones. The retractable hardtop is slick.
My family is kind of lucky in that we have two cars and a truck. Much less compromise is required. I used to drive a Toyota pickup or 4runner for years. Now I only drive my big diesel truck if I need it, a car is much more pleasant to drive. We may even get a miata and have 4 cars, sheesh, because it's probably either the two seater miata which won't work with the kids at all, or a BMW 3 series, which could replace the suby, but isn't as fun or economical as the miata. And I'd hate to give up the suby for ski trips.
Subys are much more sure footed in the snow than 4x4 trucks. I always see trucks/suvs going way too fast around Tahoe. If you are off road, sure you can't beat a truck, but for snowy/icy roads a suby handles much better with it's lower center of gravity, etc. Unfortunately you get the flatlanders in their SUVs up in the mountains thinking they are invincible until they are stuck in a snowbank, or worse coming at you.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Nov 25, 2015 - 12:08pm PT
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Buddha and John,
Thanks for your comments. The fancy and more practical aspects of my nature will continue to spar over which car to get.
I suspected the Audi would have some ownership costs, just wasn't sure of the full extent of them and what kind of long term maintainance issues are involved. Also, I get the philosophy behind leasing but, and maybe I'm dense on this front, I've never seen how the costs of continually leasing a new car every three years is cheaper than putting maintainance costs into the same vehicle. Maybe when you combine the costs of purchase with the maintenance costs?
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John M
climber
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Nov 25, 2015 - 12:28pm PT
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Does anyone know how decent the Lexus RX AWD system is? Preferably the older ones. RX300 and RX330 which goes to 2007 I believe. I found an interesting price situation in the larger cities with them. They were often cheaper then those same years Honda crv. It appeared to me that Lexus owners would sell their RXs at about 100,000 miles, and the market wasn't as strong for them as the Hondas, so they were cheaper. Just curious as I have already bought a vehicle. This price difference was not as noticeable on car lots, but rather from private owners.
Phylp, very good point about two different drivers sharing the driving..
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 25, 2015 - 12:36pm PT
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Leasing is rarely, if ever, cheaper than buying, unless perhaps you are leasing for a business.
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steve s
Trad climber
eldo
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Nov 25, 2015 - 12:46pm PT
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Subarus are very popular here in Boulder with women who need all wheel drive. The newer models seem to be disposable i.e. before you hit 100,000 miles get rid of 'em. I will stick with my trust worthy Toyota Tacoma and get a Porsche 911 as a second car.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Nov 25, 2015 - 12:49pm PT
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After having Moose pull out of the mud (twice) in Indian Creek a month or so ago, Patty and I are thinking of getting a Subaru after the Toyota Sienna goes tads up. Hook it up to a teardrop camper and we are set! Question is; which one has better ground clearance?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 25, 2015 - 12:50pm PT
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Problem is the classic air cooled 911s have skyrocketed in price.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 25, 2015 - 12:53pm PT
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Just sold our Sienna. More carefree miles and tows better than my Suby.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Nov 25, 2015 - 12:56pm PT
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Generally Metrosexual vs. Openly Gay owners - the only real difference...
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Gearhead
Trad climber
Novato Ca
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Nov 25, 2015 - 01:10pm PT
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I got a 2014 Outback in July. It had 6000 miles on it and comes with a better warranty than a new one (Dealer Certified) I drove nothing but full size American 4x4's all my life. This car is more stable and goes everywhere I've ever gone in one of my trucks. I'm a machinist/mechanic/welder, so I'm pretty anal about maintenance on my vehicles. All my vehicles have gone 200k plus on original engines and drive train. I hope this ones the same, so far I'm impressed. The cvt takes a little while to get used to. Once you get the feel for it the acceleration problem is solved.
P.S. the guy who was looking for the A.C. 911 can pm me. I have quite a few 911, 912, 356, and Karmann Ghia's from the 60's to early 70's.I always have some that I'm willing to roll.
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Nanobody
Trad climber
Fresno, CA
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Nov 25, 2015 - 02:35pm PT
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I love my Outback. Has no problem getting into shuteye, or handling the snow
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Nov 25, 2015 - 05:52pm PT
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Does anyone know how decent the Lexus RX AWD system is? Preferably the older ones. RX300 and RX330 which goes to 2007 I believe. I found an interesting price situation in the larger cities with them. They were often cheaper then those same years Honda crv. It appeared to me that Lexus owners would sell their RXs at about 100,000 miles, and the market wasn't as strong for them as the Hondas, so they were cheaper. Just curious as I have already bought a vehicle. This price difference was not as noticeable on car lots, but rather from private owners.
Phylp, very good point about two different drivers sharing the driving..
Lexus is Toyota and toyota is lexus. The highlander and the RX are both built out of a camry. The AWD is the same. Powertrains are the same.Its just an upmarket vs standard market version of the same thing with different options.
People get gun shy, selling off your car at 100k inst uncommon, but people confuse maintenance and wearout parts with breaking down or needing repairs. Its just part of the service ife of parts is all. Once you hit 100k you have to replace a few things. The more people understand what and why, the more open, the less they understand, the more they think lemon and offload that thing.
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Nov 25, 2015 - 05:59pm PT
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I suspected the Audi would have some ownership costs, just wasn't sure of the full extent of them and what kind of long term maintainance issues are involved. Also, I get the philosophy behind leasing but, and maybe I'm dense on this front, I've never seen how the costs of continually leasing a new car every three years is cheaper than putting maintainance costs into the same vehicle. Maybe when you combine the costs of purchase with the maintenance costs?
Leasing isnt the greatest, but works for my situation. there are advantages, like always being under warranty, having the car always be new, and that sort of thing. I do my own maintenance, so I save there. But car ownership is never a profitable enterprise, they all cost something sometime. I wasnt sure if I want to keep a forester, I wanted to try one. Leasing now is definitely better than leasing several years ago. I dont pay all that much all things considered, and when the 3 years is up, I return it with all its door dings and so on, and I can make my next choice. Prob wont lease again, but it was perfect for the time.
After working on all makes of cars in the 90's and owning both german and japanese, I will say that I enjoy german, but buy japanese. Even volvos are pretty expensive to main tain and have the worst resale value. Its all about what you want and need, as long as what you got makes you happy, boom, youre there.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Nov 25, 2015 - 10:10pm PT
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I've had a 2006 Forester XT, and a 2011 RAV4 V6. Both had plenty of power and were good to drive. The Forester had an emission issue related to the turbocharger. Was about a 1000 to fix. Otherwise both were perfectly reliable. I've got a bit of a lead foot, so am guessing I might have been less happy with the regular 4 cyl versions of either.
And with decent tires, on gravel roads or in light snow, both handled better than my current vehicle, a 4Runner. It's only when the snow gets deep or the road really rough that the 4Runner has an advantage.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 26, 2015 - 08:18am PT
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For the Lexus RX300 question Toyota/Lexus has a variety of awd and 4wd systems. Looks like the RX300 has a good awd system
the solution was to make an all-wheel-drive option, combining an integrated transfer case with a viscous coupling center differential and an optional limited-slip rear differential. It provides a 50/50 front-to-rear power split for even traction, and we surmise that this system, along with the transmission in the "Snow" mode that starts the RX 300 off in second gear for less slippage, will be useful for residents of colder climes.
With the limited slip differential option you could be putting power to 3 wheels at once which is really good.
http://www.edmunds.com/lexus/rx-300/2000/road-test/
My dad has a newer highlander. It has a magnetic coupler in the viscous center differential where it normally goes in front wheel drive unless it slips then applies power to the rear wheels. So good mpg. But it has a "snow" button which engages the magnets and gives it a 50/50 power split up to 25 mph.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2015 - 02:56am PT
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Thanks for all the comments. We ended up getting a Forester, which has made my life much better by lifting my wife's mood several notches. Now I just need to figure out I can talk her into borrowing it for some trips to Shuteye, when the time comes.
John
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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Nov 30, 2015 - 05:04am PT
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JEZLarian....Borrow the new car..? Don't rock the boat...
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Nov 30, 2015 - 07:57am PT
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Throw a bonin to her in the car. That will work.
Good on ya, you made the best choice. If the 'cake' is the most important to you, go Forester. If the 'frosting ' is most important, get one of the others. All others are gimmicky AWD systems that are not solid like Subaru or Audi. Its simple.
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John M
climber
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Nov 30, 2015 - 08:19am PT
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Nice Choice… just make sure it has the right tires on it before you take it to the snow. A friend of mine bought a new Outback in Fresno a few years back. She kept having trouble in the snow, so I checked out the tires. It had all weather tires on it, but they were more summer tires then anything. You can't just look at the brand, you have to check the model number. They use to come with bridgestone potenza. The potenza came in something like 10 different models. Hers was more of a summer tire. It did not have decent traction on ice. They said they were all season, but that is a range of rubber softness.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Nov 30, 2015 - 09:33am PT
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Nice Choice… just make sure it has the right tires on it before you take it to the snow.
Roger that. The tires on my 2015 forester don't seem aggressive enough for snow or loose dirt/mud.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Nov 30, 2015 - 02:55pm PT
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Question; on an AWD which wheels get the chains, front or back?
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Nov 30, 2015 - 03:26pm PT
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Congratulations, John. You're going to love it!
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ryanb
climber
Hamilton, MT
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Nov 30, 2015 - 03:54pm PT
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We have a 2015 2.5i CVT forester and love it. its not a truck but it can hit 35mpg on country highways and handle all sorts of bad Montana roads including the unplowed dirt one we live on. No issues with oil consumption yet just after the second oil change.
Friends have Outback's. They are a bit longer, a bit shorter and have a higher towing capacity which would be nice if plans include a camper. Other friends have tacomas...inside feels really cramped.
Stock tires aren't great especially on ice now that they have a bit of wear and a full size spare will be needed for any sort of off road use. The suspension could eat up small bumps better.
Eyeing a set of 15" method racing rally wheels and all terrain tires like this guy has done:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v723/SKVR6GTI/Method%20Race%20Wheels/14%20Forester%20MR501%20VTSpec%201570_zpsqmmcxwlk.jpg
The book says to only use chains (actually low clearance cables) on the front wheels as the back don't have the clearance.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Nov 30, 2015 - 06:31pm PT
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And i love the backup camera, the moonroof, the seat warmers and the blutooth connectivity
Seat warmers? What a pussy.
( wish I had sprung for them on my Pilot. Sticker shock got the better of me.)
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Nov 30, 2015 - 06:35pm PT
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Seat warmers? What a pussy.
Meow. Love em' on my 4 runner!
When driving my dad's car in winter in Western Pa I loved the heated steering wheel too!
Meow. Meow. Meow. Purrrrrrrrr
Susan
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Nov 30, 2015 - 06:39pm PT
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John, you'll enjoy the way the car handles in the snow. Hope it goes on many a road trip.
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Randall_C
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Nov 30, 2015 - 07:03pm PT
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I'm on my fourth Subaru, which is a 2015 Forester 2.5i. It now has 20k and I have had zero issues with it. Unfortunately, my friend has a 2013 Outback with the 2.5 and is experiencing the oil consumption issue. As for my Subaru, I am very happy with the purchase and plan on driving it as far as it will go.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Nov 30, 2015 - 09:16pm PT
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Forester is easier to get and out of than the Outback
My Forester has 230,000 miles and I just pour in a quart of oil with each fill up.
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Daphne
Trad climber
Northern California
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Nov 30, 2015 - 10:10pm PT
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Congrats! Driving a new car is a luxe experience, no matter what the car. Its all clean and shiny and new. No wonder your wife is happy.
Yeah, the winter package was something I wrestled over. Really helps the o'dark thirty departures for cragging and skiing and I'm so glad I sprung for it.
Susan, steering wheel warmer! Can I get one aftermarket? Mmmm ...
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Nov 30, 2015 - 11:02pm PT
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Subaru, like all mfr's, puts cruddy tires on their cars OEM. They are all season technically, but all seasons are not snow tires, no matter what the quality. If youre going to be doing any snow time, its worth some snow tires for oeace of mind.
Ive said it before and ill say it again, all the AWD in the world wont matter with crap tires. A/S tires trick folks into thinking theyre adequate for the snow, theyre not. You cant rely on them.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Had not heard of the oil leakage issue. That is disturbing. A quart with every fill up? WTF!
And chain all 4 wheels? Jimminy crickets what a hassle.
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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His is clearly not a new forester.
Ledge rat, give us your cars specs.
The oil consumption issue is with the 2011 and up FB and FA engines. The oil issue is a known TSB concerning consumption not leakage. Any old car that has leaks that were not fixed will, well, leak. Oil leaks are fixable, they are from failings of gasketing or seals somewhere. People choose to not fix them, then some complain about how their car chew through oil, or others just deal and add oil. Most of the time its an easy and inexpensive fix that people dodge and end up spending more on replacement oil than the fix itself.
A car is a huge set of variables, everyones will be different. Everyone takes different care of their car, brings it to different mechanics, exposes it to different conditions and workloads. Your results will vary.
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Yes, they manufacture them next to the Pontiacs and Oldsmobiles.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Tho Some leaks may be easier, Fixing the head gaskets on a Subaru costs $2000, which I would not call easy and inexpensive.
Still, Overall I'd say my car has been average in repairs needed over its life. And I like it better than generic crv/rav4/etc.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Don't listen to these yuppies here!
Get a helicopter.
Werner, any suggestions? I'm on a budget.
I was thinking of a Bell Being V-22 Osprey, but at $72 million, a bit it out of my league. Of course, if I asked for a custom-designed V-022 with a paintball armament ('cause I am a wussy) instead of the machine guns and missles, it might cut the cost down some. Hmmm, decisions, decisions, decisions.
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enjoimx
Trad climber
Yosemite
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I'm on my fourth Subaru, which is a 2015 Forester 2.5i. It now has 20k and I have had zero issues with it. Unfortunately, my friend has a 2013 Outback with the 2.5 and is experiencing the oil consumption issue. As for my Subaru, I am very happy with the purchase and plan on driving it as far as it will g
No new cars have issues at 20k...that's not really an endorsement for Subaru
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Subys are great for what they are (an affordable car with great awd). But I wish they could do better than average long term quality.
I wish their partnership with Toyota lasted longer so they could have taken advantage of Toyota's scale and R&D. My new Toyota doesn't even need spark plugs until 120K. The long life fluids (tranny, brake) last over 100K.
Since my Suby is a second car now I'd be tempted to replace it with a Lexus RX300 crossover mentioned earlier or maybe a highlander. It would be nice to have the extra room. But I'd be giving up the fun to drive factor. And if I sold my Suby my wife would want to buy a convertible. Not that that's a bad thing. But then I'd need to take my big truck whenever I needed awd/4wd.
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Toyotas track record isnt as great as it was in the 80s or 90s. The Korean mfrs are taking over the quality and reliability marks.
Definitely would include the Hyundais and Kias in your searches, def worth a test drive. They are definitely worthwhile.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Ledge rat, give us your cars specs. Whaddaya mean "specs?" Year?
2003 Forester XS
Had the head rebuilt and timing belt replaced at 150,000 miles
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Exactly, the EJ powered SF,SG's are way different thatn the later SH and current SJ, mostly due to the FB engine coming in 2011 in the SH. They were way different animals then, built out of the GF Impreza to start, then out of the GG chassis, progressing to the current. Issues that took place with those are different than what the SH/SJ models have as issues. Its an apples and oranges thing. There were a lot more head gasket issues back then for instance.
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Their partnership with Toyota was a bit misleading. They co-authored the BRZ/FRS, but otherwise it was a manufacturing partnership, toyota using the SOA indiana plant to do runs of camrys. Its now over, and SOA is having some trouble keeping up with demand for some models. Not sure of they are still, but they were very recently.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Check out the long term quality index I posted and read their methodology. I think it's the best indicator of how long cars will last and be trouble free. Better than anecdotal evidence. Korean cars are a little above average like subarus. Toyota/Lexus is still well on top. The land cruiser is the best and other Toyota trucks are very good. And most of their cars are good too.
Some good American vehicles too. Full size gm and Ford trucks are great. My F250 has 200k on it and it's still like new. Only needed a tranny rebuild at 160k.
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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I doubt the relevance of most of those type of things. Esp JD Power and such. They rarely relate to the real world. Not sure I found the right one, can you re-link? Curious if theyve adjusted for volume for instance, where toyota would have everyone beat by sheer numbers alone.
My main point is that people, the owner of the vehicle, is the most important variable. Most people dont have a clue on how or how often a vehicle needs attention or maintenance, and how the concept of wearout parts work, and so on. Folks confuse simple upkeep with repairs or reliability. The average person then furthers it by negecting proper upkeep, having an issue or breakdown as a result, and blame the car due to their ignorance. They therefore get a skewed idea of how a car really is. The price of a reliable Tacoma or Outback is a timing belt/water pump every 90k miles. If you think about it its a small price to pay. Many folks dont see it that way, and dont understand how mechanical things work so they discount it.
Case in point is the syncro vanagons from the late 80's with the wasserboxer. The AWD system needs a maintenance every 20k mi(?) in order to maintain reliability. Many folks would buy these things and go off hippie tripping and neglect to do the maintenance due to cost or skepticism of the need. They would consequently have a breakdown and a much larger expense. Thus the stories of how unreliable these things were got blown out of proportion.
Ive seen people take the best of cars, from a Subaru to a Tacoma to a Corolla and on and on, and ruin them by having wrong notions about how to maintain a car. Whether its having imcompetent people do the work, or not following the mfr's actual maintenance regimen or not doing the maintenance in the first place (I know many who think that bringing your car by the jiffy lube for regular oil changes is enough, despite having issues with their car), folks either get it or they dont, and sadly, most folks fall under the 'dont' category. Some know they dont get it and just follow the mfr's maint schedule and have the dealer do everything. Good for them, theyve admitted that this isnt something youre in understanding of and you just take it to the pros so your car stays solid.
The variables are endless. But the human variable is the most decisive for sure. Who knows? That head gasket might have been secondary to an oversight or bad move on part of the owner. That bad wheel bearing could have been from the driver hitting something over and over during the cars life that finally made it fail. That clutch might be due to a driver whos unaware that they ride the clutch, or had pep boys work on their car, or a shady shop work on their car, or tried to cut corners to save $ and ruined things as a result.
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Yeah Ive been reading up on my american trucks lately, picking out the years/models to get and to avoid. There are so many variances and such between the model years. What Im actually hoping to do, is to finish my lease in 2017, and either purchase a Chevy Colorado with the small Duramax diesel or its competition. It just became available this year. Im hoping it will A) prove reliable as the new Colorado/Canyon platform is looking good. and B) prompts Toyota and Nissan and Ford to pony up with a midsize diesel from their global market. Thats all the new Colorado is, its the global truck.
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Alois
Trad climber
Idyllwild, California
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Own 2002 Subaru Outback. Bought it new. Have 156,000 miles. This Subby is by far the best car I owned ( based on lack of problems) in the 49 years of driving. Change the oil every 4,000 miles, have it serviced by Subaru and the only problem so far, was a faulty radiator cap at 87,000 miles, and recently, a faulty emission sensor.
I live in Idyllwild, CA. the winter weather hovers at 32 degrees and by sun down, the roads can get pretty slick with ice. The Subaru AWD is absolutely awesome in these conditions. Don't know much about Forester, but I would recommend the Outback fully, based on my experience.
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Randall_C
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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o new cars have issues at 20k...that's not really an endorsement for Subaru...
Not necessarily true. The Subaru oil consumption issues have been well documented at lower mileages than 20k. Take my friends 2013 Outback for instance. She began to have issues at around 16k and has been dealing with the excessive oil consumption problem for the last 10k miles with little cooperation from the dealership. She should have started the lemon law process - I'm not sure she did so.
Here is an interesting article regarding the problem:
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine/2015/06/excessive-oil-consumption/index.htm
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Lanthade
climber
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I'm 2 years into a 2014 outback - manual transmission. Great car, lots of power once you learn where the power lives. Handles like a champ in the snow, I've been surprised at what it's let me get away with.
My only complaint against Subaru is that they have eliminated the manual transmission on new outbacks as of 2015. I would have happily paid more money for a sunroof, backup cameras, and seat memory but those weren't an option with a manual transmission.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 2, 2015 - 11:25am PT
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Anecdotal evidence (with lots of encouragement by me and one of my long-term climbing partners) drove my wife's desire for a Subaru. My wife is a nurse, and many of the docs with whom she worked told her that their Lexuses (Lexi?) were trouble-free for the first 100,000 miles, then less so. Their Subarus, on the other hand, lasted forever.
My only real concern about Subarus was the behavior of their drivers in the San Joaquin Valley. They tended to drive sanctimoniously at precisely the speed limit, regardless of their lane or the speed of traffic. Then again, the slowest drivers here drive Toyota products (except Scions) and Acuras, so I had developed a natural bias against those products.
John
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Morgan
Trad climber
East Coast
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I have a 2011 Outback and, so far, I like it a lot. The metal seems thin in places, but it is well designed and has been good in snow and hassle-free.
My experience with a Forrester was also positive. We borrowed one to take some kayaks to a lake on a track with some steep whoops. Where other cars would have bottomed out, the Subaru Forrester was styling and it seemed to have a short turning radius as well.
I have heard about the head gasket issue and have two friends/suby loyalists who have experienced it.
Also, I have a friend who has pretty high mileage on his outback and had to replace his cruise control.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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After needing head gaskets on my 2006 Subaru at 110k I'm sticking with Toyotas or 4 cylinder Hondas
same thing happened to my buddy! he is a ford owner now..
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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An outback pulling an outback improperly. Most definitely frying the center diff by leaving 2/4 wheels on the ground to spin.
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Tradein quality index just doesnt seem reliable to me. It doesnt account for any car that wasnt traded back in to a dealer. Im always skeptical of these sorts of 'ratings' as there always seems to be some catch of sorts. That and my personal experiences dictate the opposite, I live in an area with mosty subarus. They are quite reliable amongst the eleventy thousand that are in my world. That said, I know of many who have created problems (with subarus, toyotas, nissans, etc) by not handling maintenance properly, or by taking it to a cheap (read shoddy) shop trying to save a buck on labor. Its amazing, most local shops tend to give folks a 'great deal' on not fixing their car. Got a great price, but their car still isnt fixed....
It could be statistically significant, but the variables are far too vast. Car repair and ownership is one area that folks at large just dont do right.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Great thread here. So where does the issue stand these days between manual stick and automatic? My "go to" preference for smaller vehicles like the older Legacys (90's & 91's) has been the 5 speed shift whilst enjoying some of the newer, high-tech automatics on larger, cruisier rigs. I just love the control, compression on downhill, reduced wear on brakes, etc with the manual. Never liked the quasi "manual" mode of the automatics either; not the same thing.
Can you still get sticks on these cars? Do you want them?
Arne
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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My opinion is that the reduced wear on brakes idea gets blown up in clutch replacement costs.
Why channel the heat to a more expensive repair?
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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I dont know about all that, just drive it properly, dont engine brake when not necessary (its not a peterbilt for fuch's sake), downshift, but no engine braking.
No more automatics, CVT now.
http://www.subaru.com
People love to overcomplicate things.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Trade in quality index has probably over a million cars in their database now. It's big enough that differences in different owner's maintenance habits etc. are probably somewhat evenly distributed among brands and models. It's not perfect but by FAR seems to be the best indicator of long term quality and longevity I've seen.
Part of good quality is engineering a car that isn't as sensitive to lack of needed maintenance. For example the CV Boots in Suby's being near the exhaust and developing cracks can be solved by owners keeping an eye on them and replacing them. But if they were better engineered where you didn't have that problem at all less cars would be affected and the quality overall would be reflected better among all owners of that car.
Personally I've seen the difference between my Toyotas and Subaru. The Subaru has some real benefits (better suspension, or course great AWD) but the Toyota's seem a little better engineered.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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My only complaint against Subaru is that they have eliminated the manual transmission on new outbacks as of 2015. I would have happily paid more money for a sunroof, backup cameras, and seat memory but those weren't an option with a manual transmission.
In my case it is not the driver but the simple fact that Foresters are freaking gutless. Turn into the pullout on an uphill and it will take foreveeeer to get back up to speed. I.E., sherwin grade or 120.
Try passing someone in a Forester and you will understand. Hell, my old corrola had more get up and go.
edit: wrong quote. I meant to refer to the comment about 5 mph under the speed limit and not using pullouts.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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The 5 speed manual in my 2005 Outback is far from optimal.
It has no overdrive gear on the highway so 80mph is 3600 rpm,
which makes it noisy and makes lousy mpg.
The old 4 speed automatic, although slower, has a much better highway gear.
The 5 speed manual also has no granny gear, so you can't go slowly up a rocky hill without stalling or burning the clutch.
But you can roll start it with a dead battery.
Overall it should have had a 7 speed manual.
The new CVT is better most of the time.
Don't know about the 2010 6 speed manual.
The 165-175 hp 4 cyl 2.5i engine is plenty - at high revs.
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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I have 2005 outback with 200,000 miles on the clock and so far no head gasket issues. My 1998 Outlook did just over 330,000 miles on it and the only major work I did on it was to replace the gearbox around 200K. The only reason why I retired it was some bonehead t-boned me.
Probably 70 percent of my miles are highway miles.
I look after them and don't push them too hard. Typically drive about 5 miles above the speed limit. You can't be in a rush.
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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An example of deviation and general wackiness in vehicle testing/data collection. Vehicle data and tests are so ridden with skewed info.
This thread is probably going to be helpful ( I hope, theres mostly good discussion and not lengthy) to folks in here, shows a good example, a CR test:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=44016496#post44016496
its a fairly objective test, done about as well as could be done. Variables eliminated, trying to pare it down to just the vehicle itself.
Then this turd exists, AMCI, not known for its truthiness, and for changing variables to essentially remanufacture their test. They get completely different results:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=44014848&postcount=39
Goes to show how much deepr to look at tests and data. They all have some amount of truth and some amount of total BS. Theyre getting better at slipping bad info in on people.
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doughnutnational
Gym climber
its nice here in the spring
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My wife's 2014 6 speed manual Forester had the short block replaced at less than 30,000 miles (big hassle when you add in the multiple oil consumption tests). It just failed two more oil consumption tests and we have been directed to contact Subaru to see what's next. If they don't do us right it will be my 4th and last Subaru. It's using around a quart of expensive oil per 1000 miles.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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curious as to how far a Forester or Outback has been comfortably driven up into the Buttermilks
thinking in particular the approach to Mt Humphreys, where the "end of the line" for even the monster trucks is, if I recall correctly, about 8,400 feet
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Ive actually driven my WRX to the sub parking at george creek with litte issue. My forester would have made it all the way. Ive wheeled my forester all over, it does well and gets farther than youd think if youre bold and can drive off road mindfully.
I wouldnt hesitate to drive it right up there to humphreys.
Turn off traction control on your dirt road forays. It complicates things when it tries to intervene.
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flatlandermcjack
Ice climber
South Dakota
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Dec 10, 2015 - 09:31am PT
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get a chevy silverado
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 10, 2015 - 09:44am PT
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^^^^^^ Amen...
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doughnutnational
Gym climber
its nice here in the spring
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Jan 12, 2016 - 03:57pm PT
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Update on my 2014 Forester. After oil consumption problems and a new short block which continued to have oil consumption problems Subaru has offered me 2 options. One is to buy back the car minus a "useage fee". Not sure what that would be as they need to review other documents regarding the original purchase price and such. The second would be another new short block and $5000. They said I then have 2 weeks to decide if the issue is "fixed to my satisfaction". I asked what if it continues to burn oil, but it is not apparent in those two weeks, but have yet to receive a response to that question. Open to any opinions as to what my best course of action is. I like the car and it has about 34,000 miles. If I chose the new short block I plan to go on a long road trip with the loaner while the other gets "fixed".
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Feb 11, 2016 - 03:33pm PT
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Had a long conversation with my new Subaru mechanic this morning.
He really knows a lot about them, and all the issues they've had for various years. Maybe BuddhaStalin knows this stuff but a lot was new to me.
He said head gasket issues on many years are due to different materials used on the intake manifold (thick aluminum) vs. the exhaust (thin). So they heat and cool at different rates. That combined with a head gasket that is metal coated with rubber (some types of rubber eaten away by some types of coolant) leads to issues. Being low on coolant / overheating exacerbates these issues. The new 2009+ super blue coolant helps.
He said they redesigned the head numerous times from the 80s to now. So different years have issues from different causes.
He said WRXs (turbos) are different, they have different/beefier exhaust so it heats/cools more similar to the intake side. And the head gasket is all metal.
He said the newer engines have been redesigned again and now use a plastic intake manifold. He said he hasn't seen any come in with head gasket issues yet. So JEleazarian's ride should be fine.
It depends on the years what percentage he sees come in with head gasket or other issues. But it seems in general they are getting better.
I started pricing what it would cost to replace my car and it just doesn't seem worth it. So I'm putting new CV boots, new rear brakes, etc. on it and hoping to get to 200K or more.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Feb 25, 2016 - 04:26pm PT
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The head gasket fix is to go with the Six Star MLS gasket. I just did it on my 1999, will see how long it lasts. Easy to do the gaskets, motor does not need to be removed.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Feb 25, 2016 - 05:06pm PT
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Subies just plain suck suck suck
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