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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Nov 18, 2015 - 07:25am PT
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As an avid hand driller, 1/4" x 1.5" button heads make great bolt ladders but not belays. For my sandstone belays I use baby's first, then 3/8" x 2.5"+ anchors. On granite, for free climbing I still have a stash of rawl 5/16" buttonheads which are far and away the best size (bang for buck) for the climbing I do.
The 3/8" x 3" or larger and longer 1/2" is far beyond reasonable spec for anything that realistically would be generated in a climbing scenario. All bolts have a lifespan- the rule should be don't trust fixed anchors unless you placed them. Maybe that was the good thing about climbing on old hardware- you thought about it.
In 20 years, i will bet a majority of hardware circa 2000 will be suspect but by then I will be drinking on the beach and wont care.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Nov 18, 2015 - 08:57am PT
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No one else ever needs to clip them nor complain about them, in terms of the climb itself. They were placed for the benefit of the party doing the climb, nothing more.
If its community service the FA wants to deliver, then by all means hammer out the bigger holes. But its not necessary.
DMT
The crux of the issue.
Whether I am my brothers keeper, not the government, but more over am I my future-brothers keeper?
Analog? My 6cylinders are my FA choice, since I'm not my future brothers keeper I may buy a V8 and not worry about climate change at all.
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 18, 2015 - 10:02am PT
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3 lb drill and recharge and reuse batteries
But not in national parks or wilderness areas.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 18, 2015 - 10:32am PT
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Bolting is for sport climbing and big walls and I am thankful that there are plenty of people around for those tasks.
How about the concept of leaving bolts behind when establishing trad and alpine climbs. We brought 1/4 inch bolts to Torre Egger in 1976 and placed three, one for a climbing move and two for anchors. I'll bet if we hadn't brought the bolts with us we would have been able to proceed without them.
I haven't placed a bolt on a trad or alpine climb since and that covers many hundreds of pitches. I have found that if you don't bring bolts you will find a way. I have failed on many alpine routes but never because I didn't have bolts.
Greg Crouch and I did a beautiful 2000 ft. Rosk climb on Cerro Pollone in Patagonia. The line had previously been tried by the Swiss climber Piola. His team got half way and place two hunker bolts at each belay, obviously using a power drill.
We brought no bolts and we completed the climb and had no difficulty getting adequate pro, belays and rap anchors sans bolts.
We didn't bring bolts on Latok 1. 80 plus piches and raps later we found ourselves safely back on terra firma.....and that was a climb with consequences.
I suppose that strategy would leave out pioneering new slab routes but friends don't let their friends do slabs.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 18, 2015 - 11:24am PT
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Jim- Thanks for chiming in.
Knowing what you know now would you choose to leave behind stainless steel bolts in larger diameter holes or would you make the same decision to use 1/4" mild steel split shaft bolts?
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 18, 2015 - 11:30am PT
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I suppose that strategy would leave out pioneering new slab routes but friends don't let their friends do slabs.
Is this a Jim thing (i.e. you and Bridwell)? Too funny!
My answer about being my brother's keeper in bolting is simple. When I place a bolt, I make a permanent alteration to the rock. For that reason alone, I need to consider future climbers in my actions.
John
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 18, 2015 - 12:49pm PT
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Steve....John has a good point about bolts leaving permanent scars therefore more permanent ones are preferable.
Knowing what I know now, I wouldn't have brought any bolts on TE. It would have created some problems on the crux pitch and on the last belay but they could have been overcome.
The minimialists credo:
If you THINK you need something, you don't.
If you KNOW you need something, you do.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 18, 2015 - 05:08pm PT
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Straight from the George Lowe Playbook...
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 18, 2015 - 05:59pm PT
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friends don't let their friends do slabs.
Aww, geez, Jim, I was going to invite to go stink bugging up some slabs with a bunch of my geezer friends but now I can't after you said that.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Nov 18, 2015 - 06:10pm PT
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damn, Donini, slabs is ok in mah book
quarter inchers on FAs too, seem raisonable
edit for the below: so no hamemers above treeline, right? because yeah, no one cares, eh?
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Nov 18, 2015 - 06:14pm PT
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I agree with Donini. A fair compromise for me is no bolts above treeline.
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Nov 18, 2015 - 06:14pm PT
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On the fifth belay on Nosferatu on the Vampire Spire I put in a 3/8" bolt and a 1/4" titanium bolt for the raps. Turns out our route is looked at as the best way to rap the spire now. Except for that 1/4" titanium. Pat and Hank were/are not fans.
I've seen 1/4" used on FA ground up with the intent to replace immediately after the route is up. I find it a curious tactic but not one that bugs me. Just different.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Nov 22, 2015 - 11:05pm PT
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Each team is on its own. None hold rights to a route, ever. Not for any reason.
I think you mean in the legalistic sense of 'rights' rather than the 'historical' effect of territoriality (first in time) as ensconced in the climbing mythology. It exists, and is real. But it's neither absolute, nor relativistic, but a 'norm' in between.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Nov 22, 2015 - 11:14pm PT
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I'm confused. What exactly is this thread about?
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Nov 23, 2015 - 12:01am PT
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The discussion is a place for 1/4" anchors.
Great for holding up suspended ceilings in reinforced concrete buildings.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Nov 23, 2015 - 06:58am PT
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I agree with Clint. Use them for rivets on aid routes. You can pull them rather easily, as opposed to machine heads. Do any routes still have the old aluminum dowels?
BITD, rivets weren't just used because they were quicker to drill. They were used BECAUSE they wouldn't hold a fall, therefore making the route harder and scarier.
The dowels were fine, actually, until people started bending them upwards to better hold a wire rivet hanger. Then they would spin in the hole and point down. I remember them when they were good. It really wasn't that big of a deal.
On the other hand, 1/4 inch bolts have been shown repeatedly able to stop big falls, so putting one in the middle of a pitch could totally change the difficulty.
I realized that attitudes have changed, but the routes aren't as scary as they used to be if you put 1/4 inch bolts in. Even one.
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Texplorer
Trad climber
Sacramento
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Nov 23, 2015 - 09:35am PT
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Mute discussion.
Sloan will replace it all with 3/4" or larger.
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cragnshag
Social climber
san joser
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Nov 23, 2015 - 10:21am PT
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MOOT
WOOT
Or WUTE?
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Nov 23, 2015 - 11:59am PT
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Greg Crouch and I did a beautiful 2000 ft. Rosk climb on Cerro Pollone in Patagonia. The line had previously been tried by the Swiss climber Piola. His team got half way and place two hunker bolts at each belay, obviously using a power drill.
We brought no bolts and we completed the climb and had no difficulty getting adequate pro, belays and rap anchors sans bolts.
Team A: Uses bolts with rings to equip the rap route. Pros: will be safe enough to use as a rap anchor for the next 100 years or so. Clean. Organized. Cheaper than using nuts, camming units and a ton of webbing. Cons: takes time. Power Drill (in this case) is a lot of weight. Can't brag about it on the climbing forums.
Team B: Uses passive gear, slings horns and leaves an occasional camming unit to rap the route. Pros: bragging rights about not using bolts. No need to carry the extra weight of a drill. Cons: leaving a lot of trash in the backcountry. Not very long lasting. Clutter/mess. Subsequent teams will add on to the trash in the environment by leaving more webbing and other crap that will be chewed on by rats, birds and sooner than later blow out to the glacier.
Not sure I see why equipping the rap route with bolts vs webbing/leaver gear is looked down?
Do backcountry routes need to be bolted? NO. Especially if you are going to the mountains and climbing a peak that had little activity. Pick one of the continuous crack system you scoped with binoculars and go up. There is not much of a mystery if you spot a continuous system. Or system from which you can penji to another system.
Can BC routes be bolted? Yes. Is one better than the other? For me personally it is a question that has no YES or NO answer. Too much gray area. Slab routes tend to be a lot more heady and bald. But you won't do long slab routes in BIG mountains. So there is a disconnect when Jim is talking about BIG alpine style routes in real mountains and most of the posters talk about routes 200-800 ft in length in Toulumne Meadowns. I personally have done ascents in different style. Ascents of long routes in a day where I placed no bolts, down-climbed a different route and left no trace at all. On alpine objectives I rarely bring anything else but a rack of doubles (tiny to BD#2 with one 3 and offset cams in the 4 smaller sizes - great for flaring cracks + tiny to med nuts). If it is a big, steep and intimidating objective I will add a #4 and #6 camalot to the rack. Different routes require different approach.
Have done one long route that required significant bolting and took me longer to complete than if I added up 15 other FAs. It is more of an in a day big wall by modern standards than a free climb though. Can't get on a 7000M peak and climb something like that alpine style without a portaledge. It was much more satisfying in the end than any of the in a day long routes.
On the way down from many formations I have used webbing/fixed gear and left a bolt to get down. On mountains with ice, it is easy to make a V thread, thread the rope through it directly, and not leave ANYTHING behind - should be common practice on peaks with ice.
At this point, if I put my ego aside, put aside all the internet bolt bashing etc, I would have to say a bolted rap anchor is much better for the environment, subsequent ascents etc. However, in most cases, I would not put in the work that creating the hole is required because it is much easier to sling some sh#t or leave a bomber nut. Most won't make bolted anchors because that would require much more time and energy. If you are not in a wilderness area/NP and have a power drill, I'd say do everyone a favor and make good anchors.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Nov 23, 2015 - 12:02pm PT
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I lean more towards what DMT said. FA party gets to decide what gear they use and how heavy or light, lazy or involved they want to be with the route. Different climbers do things differently. I don't see the superiority of style when you leave gear behind. Bolt or a fixed piece (pin, nut, cam, webbing), it is all the same, if left behind.
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