Discussion Topic |
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 16, 2015 - 06:39pm PT
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the (bluster trumps brains....pun intended) Republican politicians , in this case governors, who want to ban all Muslim Syrian refugees from their States.
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RyanD
climber
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Nov 16, 2015 - 06:43pm PT
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It's not just the politicians
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Nov 16, 2015 - 06:44pm PT
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^^^
I totally agree Jim.
Stir up the masses with fear of "the other." Then they'll vote for whatever you want.
President Obama's comments today on this subject were proud. Proud anyway to all real Americans.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 16, 2015 - 06:54pm PT
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http://acecomments.mu.nu/?post=360110
his incredibly stupid hot wet Chinese Food Fart of reality-dodging sophistry is being praised among the Cult of the Left for its daring. Vox claims it's "exactly the right way" to deal with the terrorists; the Daily Beast moistens its panties to praise John Oliver for breaking out the Big Guns against Terror: routine profanity favored by idiot bloggers who are entirely impotent of power and so who shout Nasty Things at the great big world they can't actually touch in any meaningful way.
They don't seem to notice that IS did not mount a "Lifestyle and Culture war" against the French; rather, they have, in a series of attacks over the past year (remember Charlie Hebdo?), launched an actual war, a bullet and bomb war, against France.
Yes, John Oliver, the French culture is immensely superior to the joyless death-cult of the Islamists. Well-spotted, as they might say in England (and bien vu as they'd say in France0.
But unfortunately, a war is not won when two sides get together on the field of battle and show off to each other who produces the best pastries, the best fashion, the best Progressive Televangelist Rants which "DESTROY" the opponent, nor the best #HashtagMemes.
Wars are not won or lost the way gang wars are won or lost in 80s movies, that is to say, with a dance-off.
It's not that the left is so stupid as to be incapable of understanding reality; though that does, of course, play into it. The problem is that they are a Manichean religious cult which has certain extreme religious views, and anyone questioning those views will be deemed heretic and thrown out of the cult and ostracized.
So it's more a failure of moral and intellectual courage than of intellectual capacity. They could see the truth, and they could possibly speak the truth, but they are, as C.S. Lewis observed, Men Without Chests.
The faux intellectual class is in fact studiously anti-intellectual; they are simply the most degenerate sort of priestly class, the priests who do not actually read or study, but just pass what seems like wisdom from one stupid mouth to one imbecile ear.
It is not excess of thought but defect of fertile and generous emotion that marks them out. Their heads are no bigger than the ordinary: it is the atrophy of the chest beneath that makes them seem so.
They're not stupid, so much as they are cowards; and the ultimate retreat for the ultimate coward is the full flight from reality, the retreat to the #SafeSpace of fuzzy dreams of the way they wish the world were.[/quote/]
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 16, 2015 - 07:02pm PT
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How about people who climb at Indian Creek, huh, chief?
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Nov 16, 2015 - 07:05pm PT
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And Squaw Valley.
How 'bout those Redskins. Retarded racists.
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MikeMc
Social climber
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Nov 16, 2015 - 07:07pm PT
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Or Black Canyon...
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Nov 16, 2015 - 07:25pm PT
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Why don't we buy old Donini a ticket to Damascus. From there he can travel as our American climbing ambassador of good will to climbing areas in northern Syria.
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c wilmot
climber
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Nov 16, 2015 - 07:30pm PT
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Look how well "feel good" attitudes have worked out for France
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Nov 16, 2015 - 07:32pm PT
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Look how well 'shock and awe' attitudes worked out for us in Iraq
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Nov 16, 2015 - 07:37pm PT
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Jim, they're probably doing it to keep their jobs...have you seen Trump's numbers in those states? Fear sells.
"Feel good"? Nah. France has a robust counter-terrorism program. Not perfect, obviously.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Nov 16, 2015 - 07:39pm PT
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Hey, Crankster, no fair stealing my answer ;)
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c wilmot
climber
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Nov 16, 2015 - 07:39pm PT
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Obama has been in control for some time. His proxy war in Syria and his support of the "rebels" is the primary cause for ISIS rise to the top and the mass exodus of "migrants"
Its pretty silly to import those you displaced from their homeland.
Had the US left Assad alone to deal with those invading his country this nightmare would have ended long ago
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Nov 16, 2015 - 07:48pm PT
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Jody, you can tuck your kids into bed tonight confident that the president is not taking orders from Iran.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 16, 2015 - 07:48pm PT
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Had the US left Assad alone to deal with those invading his country this nightmare would have ended long ago
And had the US left Saddam and Afghanistan alone and focused on the real problem - Israel - this nightmare wouldn't be the abject sh#t storm we've left in our wake. It was pretty obvious in 2003 that the real consequences of our actions wouldn't even begin until after we left Iraq leaving a vast unmanaged void in which sectarian violence would predictably spin out of control. It was a bad decision then and one the entire west will be paying for over the next several decades to yet to come.
Clueless in every single way and predictably short memories. What, my nightmare? No way Jose, it's for sure a 700 BC nightmare that has just spontaneously risen up to bite us on the ass - our mindless war mongering had nothing to do with it - in fact, we were the only thing standing in the way of an unavoidable cultural glacier that somehow just snuck up on us.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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Nov 16, 2015 - 07:49pm PT
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Fantastic idea...let's encourage more immigrants to enter the US...The freeways are not crowded , there's plenty of water , and there are lots of jobs to be filled...
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c wilmot
climber
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Nov 16, 2015 - 07:50pm PT
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Bush is retired. Obama has been at the controls and chose to continue de-stablising the middle east.
I figured it would take 6 months for attacks to start occurring in Europe. It has taken far less.
and the "feel good" attitudes on display are those who are financially secure and seek open borders and other such "feel good" agenda's as THEY will not be affected by it.
If someone opposes you- just call them xenophobic....and continue riding that high horse
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Nov 16, 2015 - 07:52pm PT
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can we all just agree that we hate other people?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 16, 2015 - 07:55pm PT
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Fantastic idea...let's encourage more immigrants to enter the US...The freeways are not crowded , there's plenty of water , and there are lots of jobs to be filled...
Fantastic idea...let's go to the Mideast and start toppling those dominos - hell, if we knock enough of them over the whole shebang will turn into Ft. Wayne overnight and McDonalds and democracies will be popping up on every street corner right across the region.
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this just in
climber
Justin Ross from North Fork
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Nov 16, 2015 - 07:56pm PT
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Jim you accidentally created a politard thread.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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Nov 16, 2015 - 07:58pm PT
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Healjye...why not Hicksville...?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 16, 2015 - 08:05pm PT
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Bush is retired. Obama has been at the controls and chose to continue de-stablising the middle east. I figured it would take 6 months for attacks to start occurring in Europe. It has taken far less.
No, Obama and the world inherited this shti storm and the minute we pulled out of Iraq it took on a life of it's own in the form of now unconstrained sectarian violence and the wave of Arab Spring which was entirely of the region. No one, not Obama, not Putin, not the EU had any control over the events once the sh#t storm started and we still don't.
It's just not the sort of genie you politely ask to go back into the bottle once you're stupid enough to invite it into your living room and it's not the sort of genie you can easily force back into the bottle because we, in our infinite wisdom, broke the bottle.
Why not Hicksville?
Well, with regard to Hickstanistan, the whole affair is easily summed up and visualized this way. When you think of W and the Neocons you only need to conjure up the image of Burt Reynolds & co. in 'Deliverance' - naively seemed like a good idea at the time, but they really had no idea who they were dealing with or what they were up against. The main difference here being the ass f*#king is going to go on a LOT longer.
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c wilmot
climber
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Nov 16, 2015 - 08:12pm PT
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No, Obama and the world inherited this
Obama helped overthrow several countries since Bush including Libya and Egypt and has attempted the same in Syria.
These regime changes had NOTHING to do with the Iraq wars.
And they have been predictably disastrous.
technically the west is violating its own international laws in aiding "rebels" who are attempting to overthrow a sovereign nation
the US has admitted to spending 500 million to aid the "rebels" in Syria- And that is only the amount they admit to....
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Norton
Social climber
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Nov 16, 2015 - 08:16pm PT
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c wilmot
climber
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Nov 16, 2015 - 08:22pm PT
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Bush personally released him?
Interesting....
Even more so considering he was living in a small room in a mosque at the time and was not considered to be an extremist
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 16, 2015 - 08:23pm PT
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Obama helped overthrow several countries since Bush including Libya and Egypt and has attempted the same in Syria. These regime changes had NOTHING to do with the Iraq wars.
Seriously? I mean, seriously? You can't be this inanely stupid. They had everything to do with the Iraq war and Obama didn't have squat to do with the initiation of the attempts to topple these regimes. In fact, the speed of it caught the US, Russia and the EU totally by surprise as the thinking was these events would play out over a decade, not ten months. Once events were in motion all three struggled mightily with how to respond, how to be even remotely relevant to the events already underway on the ground, and how to get out in front of the curve in any way after being caught flat-footed. Nothing about our ham-handed response was unique to Obama or the US other than being the direct consequence of our actions in the region and our complicity in the deliberate inaction around the Palestinian / Israeli problem.
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c wilmot
climber
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Nov 16, 2015 - 08:24pm PT
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Just call me "xenophobic" and get er done....^
Of just claim this a "safe space" off limits for those with different ideas on reality
Or you can continue your keyboard war and call me stupid....
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 16, 2015 - 08:27pm PT
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Ok, you got me there - my apologies.
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c wilmot
climber
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Nov 16, 2015 - 08:31pm PT
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I apologize too. I am amped up on caffeine after being iced out on the road....Being passive aggressive is no good either-my bad
Sometimes I get a little to vested in subjects.I try to not post but got sucked in...
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Nov 16, 2015 - 08:37pm PT
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Hey DUMBASS NORTON, FACT CHECK!!!
The Pentagon says that Mr. Baghdadi, after being arrested in Falluja in early 2004, was released that December with a large group of other prisoners deemed low level. But Hisham al-Hashimi, an Iraqi scholar who has researched Mr. Baghdadi’s life, sometimes on behalf of Iraqi intelligence, said that Mr. Baghdadi had spent five years in an American detention facility where, like many ISIS fighters now on the battlefield, he became more radicalized. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/11/world/middleeast/us-actions-in-iraq-fueled-rise-of-a-rebel.html?_r=0
I tend to believe the Iraqi scholar over any DOD very vague low level detention records.
Pretty amazing how on JIM DONINI's recent trip to Turkey, of which his profile picture is taken, since he cares so much about these Refugee's, that he did not make an effort to go down to northern Jordan and see what he could do humanitarian wise at any of the 32 UN Syrian Refugee Camps located there. Hell, even make arrangements to adopt any one of the thousands of young Syrian orphans and bring them home with him.
Hmmmm.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Nov 16, 2015 - 08:46pm PT
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JodyHe is getting pressure from Iran not to react too harshly to ISIS also. Awesome, our prez taking orders from Iran.
You do realize that both Iran and Assad are Shia, and thus considered infidels by the Sunni ISIS. Iran may have its issues, but cuddling up to ISIS isn't one of them.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 16, 2015 - 10:23pm PT
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He is getting pressure from Iran not to react too harshly to ISIS also. Awesome, our prez taking orders from Iran.
Again, seriously? That's a completely delusional statement. They are bitter enemies and I'm guessing it's a tough for IS to decide whether it's us or iran which are the great satan. And really, if we were to judge based on who benefited from the Iraq war you'd pretty much have to conclue that W and the neocons were hand-picked paid agents of either Iran or China or that they just decided to sell us out to both.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Nov 16, 2015 - 10:25pm PT
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Buddha say:
We are all dust
we are all the great satin
we maketh the doody with much smell, all.
Society anser:
Coprophagia
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Nov 16, 2015 - 10:54pm PT
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Like any good idea it's one size fits all...coughbulshitcough
Yeah.. right... like America can't do better than that.
I f*#king guarantee there are more Syrians that would be good for this country that we should be TRYING to get to come here than there are Syrian refugees that would attack america.
150 people get killed dramatically unlike the several thousand who died that day (undramatically) and the world acts like it's ending...
GROW UP>> BECOME THE BRAVE PEOPLE YOU PRETEND TO BE.
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Nov 17, 2015 - 06:50am PT
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(Tongue inserted in cheek)
If the left thinks we have too many bitter clingers in this country now, why invite in a different type of bitter clinger?
Just sayin.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 17, 2015 - 08:43am PT
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We should round up all the Syrian immigrants and put them in internment camps. It's the american way.
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 17, 2015 - 08:47am PT
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Hddj posted this in the apocalypse thread. I thought this was a good point:
Right now we accept 30,000 gun related deaths a year as the price of widespread gun ownership. The idea that if a Syrian came over, grabbed a few guns and killed some people would be a failure of our refugee program as opposed to an expected outcome of our choices is ridiculous.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Nov 17, 2015 - 08:48am PT
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The choices we make,
the conclusions we draw
never cease to amaze.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Nov 17, 2015 - 08:53am PT
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Yeah, a very good point guys, especially if the if the body count includes terrorist emigres at or before the time of the inevitable fraction of terrorist attack.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Nov 17, 2015 - 09:19am PT
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Time to tear down the Statue of Liberty and send it back to France.
Edit:
"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 17, 2015 - 10:49am PT
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Time to tear down the Statue of Liberty and send it back to France.
This. ^^^
It's an unamerican cowardice and the essence of OBL winning.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 17, 2015 - 11:03am PT
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As someone with a first cousin who works on the front lines of the real refugee crisis - in Lebanon, where the population of the country has been increased by 2/3 with the influx of Syrian refugees, I offer the following:
Prior to the Syrian uncivil wars, its population was one of the most generally educated - if not the most generally educated - in the Middle East. The Syrian refugees reaching Lebanon are not, by and large, lifelong impoverished down-and-outers. They are middle class, well-educated people running for their lives. The closest analogy I can offer is refugees from Nazi-held territories in the late 1930's to 1945.
In that regard, the Christian Syrians - of which there is a rather larger number than most realize - are particularly at risk from ISIS. Putting them through the same screening as prudence would require for Islamic Syrian refugees makes as little sense as the Jewish quotas did in the 1930's and 40's. These people are in immediate, obvious risk of ghastly consequences. To the extent someone advocates for quicker entry for them, they simply acknowledge reality.
Most of the Islamic Syrian refugees are just as fearful, and with good reason, because they have a western orientation that ISIS is resolved to obliterate. The demagogues condemning all Syrians - or even all Syrian Muslims - exhibit a moral failure when they say "close the borders."
Unfortunately, though, those who say "treat all Syrians the same, regardless of their religious affiliation" prescribe something that makes as little sense as someone saying that a German Jew trying to flee Germany in 1939 was just as dangerous - or harmless - as any other German trying to enter the U.S. then. The risks, both to the refugees and to the U.S., differ.
Neither populist hysteria nor politically correct stupidity have any place right now. For the sake of millions of suffering people, we need to do what we can to get them to safety with all due haste. For the sake of innocents in the host countries, however, we need a rational vetting process to make sure we obtain the optimal amount of protection from the thugs who would poison humanity.
John
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Nov 17, 2015 - 11:08am PT
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Good reality check John....
Syria, prior to this mess, was NOT Afghanistan and had many well educated and productive people.
Of course after we're done with another proxy invasion and disaster it'll resemble Afghanistan.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Nov 17, 2015 - 11:11am PT
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Nice post, John. It's also important to note that at least 7 of the Paris terrorists were European National's. The validity of the Syrian passport found is in doubt.
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Cragar
climber
MSLA - MT
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Nov 17, 2015 - 11:23am PT
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Thanks for the post John. I appreciate the objective look/portrayal of this ugly reality from you POV. Man, how to vet a thug from a society/culture that most are unfamiliar with? How do we educate our society to welcome/deal/handle folks should they arrive? I am not so confident we could be the people we need to be and I hope I am wrong about that.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Nov 17, 2015 - 11:36am PT
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That's the bigger issue I fear... realities of integration. The fact that it's a gov't funded intiative means it will be screwed up. Like when they dumped thousands of poor and uneducated Somalians into New Hampshire.
But for educated Syrians who can produce and are willing to contribute, I say bring 'em over. The harsh reality though is that millions of Syrians are going to be homeless after this brutal civil war that our country openly supported.
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Cragar
climber
MSLA - MT
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Nov 17, 2015 - 11:50am PT
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I agree fear and it our responsibility to help the folks that are displaced/have had their collective lives f#@$edup due in part to our actions.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Nov 17, 2015 - 11:59am PT
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But the last thing we need here are huge camps of gov't funded uneducated non-English speaking charity cases. We have our own cities filled with that. That'd be no good for us and no good for them either. I have to wonder though if that's the long term plan. More division, more violence, artificially create us vs. them BS.
Better yet, let's take out the garbage in Washington that creates these messes.
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Cragar
climber
MSLA - MT
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Nov 17, 2015 - 12:17pm PT
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I agree, we can't even take care of our own and within our society and we create divisions so we don't have to. If we took care of the common man like we do the entitled already well off man we'd be getting somewhere as a society; yet we are even afraid to do just that. The more we are divided the easier it is to keep us in flock. For starters, what percentage of my taxes go to the very rich nation of Isreal vs. folks struggling here, like maybe veterans for starters... Screw that, just wave a flag one day and tell that one legged guy on the street...Thank you!
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 17, 2015 - 12:26pm PT
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My own thought was that Syrian refugees could help revive Detroit's economy. There is already a substantial Arabic population there, who could help them integrate. It couldn't hurt to have an influx of well-educated and generally hardworking people coming to the area.
John
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Cragar
climber
MSLA - MT
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Nov 17, 2015 - 01:21pm PT
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agree and with this kind of thinking some other areas of our country could be teased out that could use some touching up too... no pun unless you laugh.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Nov 17, 2015 - 01:53pm PT
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Donini - some day we'll beat it. We're moving in that direction. Reality will tell us the right balance of altruism and greed. Patience :-)
HFCS - it's our greatest strength. Throw the sh#t against the wall (or at each other) and see what shitty belief sticks. Believe the sh#t like it's really true. Damn our evolutionary ancestors for being so successful! I could have been a polar bear.
Fear, I think more and more that us vs them is just the natural way of humans, whether it's us white people enslaving black people, or us the masses kicking out them the politicians. It's as tough a nut to crack in ourselves as it is for other people.
For me personally, I'll be happy when my son no longer wants to kill me and can be released from protective custody at the psychiatric hospital to come home to live with us. People's brains tell them to believe all kinds of crazy sh#t. I'm learning to have a harder time hating and condemning them for it, but it's a slow process :-)
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John Duffield
Mountain climber
New York
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Nov 17, 2015 - 02:52pm PT
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Well it's all nice of you guise to say so, but the internep is full of stuff like so. I am sending some of it to friends in Germany to see if it is for realz. I'm sure this child will grow up forget all about it, and have a nice balanced view of the world.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=164_1441617119
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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Nov 17, 2015 - 04:41pm PT
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Jim: Your OP + 1.
I've also got to add that it beggars belief to believe that anyone could be so mentally constipated as to believe that Obama takes orders from Iran, or that Iran has anything other than an intense hatred of ISIS.
Turn off Fox news and go back to school, children.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 17, 2015 - 06:41pm PT
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The Repugnant Party is playing to the lowest common denominator of the American electorate and the media is cynically playing along ever mindful of their ratings and totally indifferent to quality reporting.
We have committed to a paltry 10,000 Syrian refugees, Canada has committed to 25,000 and they have one tenth of our population.
We have the toughest vetting of immigrants in the world and the danger from refugees we approve is minimal.
The Repugs know this (their stupidity has limits) but they are playing to the fears of an unsophistcated, ignorant electorate.....read, the people who vote for them.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Nov 17, 2015 - 08:47pm PT
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Thanks to all with positive posts. JE! Yours was most informative.
I just posted this on my Idaho Facebook page with JE's & Jim Brennen's inspiration.
Is it Time to tear down the Statue of Liberty and send it back to France? Or, can we, suddenly fearful, Americans live up to our nation's legacy?
"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Nov 17, 2015 - 09:29pm PT
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Fritz, if we continue with our stupidity we won't have to tear down lady liberty, it will be blown up. In world war II we didn't say to the nazi's and japanese to send to our shores your warriors. So why in the hell should we invite in these refugees who have proven in Paris to have been infiltrated by terrorists among the ranks of the disposessed and homeless. They are better off in safe zones near their homelands and fighting for their own liberty.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 17, 2015 - 09:39pm PT
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Cowardice, plain and simple.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Nov 17, 2015 - 09:43pm PT
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Hard to imagine some of these posters ever climbing...
... lurking fear guiding their every thought...
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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Nov 17, 2015 - 09:45pm PT
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Hey Rick: Maybe you should ask the original inhabitants of North America what they think of YOUR ancestor's behaviour when they arrived.
The refugees you are so terrified of providing sanctuary for are just that - refugees, and they've lived through nightmares that you are incapable of even imagining. Show them some mercy - besides, they're pre-screened before even being considered to be eligible for entry to your nation.
Oh, yeah - before and during WW II, the U.S. (and Canada, and Britain, etc,) was happy to ship boatloads of Jewish refugees back to Germany to get murdered by the Nazis. Nice to know that some things never change, eh, Rick?
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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Nov 17, 2015 - 09:54pm PT
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Scrubbing bubble: Consistency is so important. Thanks for always being an idiot.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Nov 17, 2015 - 10:12pm PT
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Look Eastman, we've been in war with these middle eastern Islamic extremists since at least 1979. A series of disastrous foreign policy blunders-the abandonment of the Shah of Iran, Bush's invasion and ouster of Saddam, Obama's abandonment of Iraq, the Arab spring, Hillary's destruction of Libya and Khadafi, and now dismissal of ISIS. Almost every time our learned leaders touch anything over there we get bit. Cowardice you say. I say healthy skepticism of our leaders actions and assurances. Apparently you are a climber, and smart enough to examine your own setup, rather than taking unknown bystanders assurance of security, before leaning back into a rappel. I suggest you practice the same basic self examination of facts before blindly leaning back onto unknown government officials and leaders assurances of actions they have been repeatedly wrong about.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Nov 17, 2015 - 10:22pm PT
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Petition Trudeau and parliament to accept them all Stewart. God knows you have a lot of territory left to civilize in the northland.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Nov 17, 2015 - 10:25pm PT
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Rick, thanks for the Fox News talking points...
... "Fox News, re-enforcing angry Americans since 1986..."
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Nov 17, 2015 - 10:32pm PT
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Yeah Eastman, thanks for the tired old MSNBC talking points.
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soaring_bird
Trad climber
Oregon
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Nov 17, 2015 - 10:39pm PT
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Xenaphobia = fear of the Princess Warrior. (be not afraid of her)
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WyoRockMan
climber
Grizzly, WY
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Nov 17, 2015 - 11:19pm PT
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Nov 18, 2015 - 06:46am PT
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This is a really boring discussion...
Its sad when a topic is ridiculously reduced down to only two choices...
All or nothing...
seriously folks? IS THAT ALL YOUR MINDS ARE CAPABLE OF CONSIDERING? Like I said.... boring and pointless discussion so far.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 18, 2015 - 06:50am PT
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A friendly game between Greece and Turkey yesterday started with a call for a moment of silence for France.
The Turkish fans started booing and then broke into the Allah Akbar chant.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Nov 18, 2015 - 06:52am PT
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Scrubbing posted I'd personally never trust a guy called Al Baghdadi
The overwhelming majority of Muslims agree with you.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Nov 18, 2015 - 06:52am PT
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There's a lot of fear of the unknown among conservative & not so conservative Americans at the moment.
Always has been lots of good reasons not to accept immigrants, and there have always been folks quick to volcalize those reasons.
I was wavering on the Syrian question, but some profound posts on this thread cleared my mind.
However, this quote was the most profound.
"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Nov 18, 2015 - 07:24am PT
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JEleazarian,
Great post, as usual John.
A friend and co-worker's father is a Christian Syrian and that side of her family has been living in Jordan for the past 2 years or so. The civil war has been horrific for all of Syrian society.
The plight of the Christian refugees is even more dangerous than for others, and they should get immediate priority.
There is nothing wrong with a healthy skepticism of the vetting process. We should proceed with caution rather than blind and stupid PC.
As Rick Sumner wrote earlier.
"...examine your own setup, rather than taking unknown bystanders assurance of security, before leaning back into a rappel."
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John M
climber
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Nov 18, 2015 - 08:43am PT
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MikeMC posted this on the first page. I agree that it should be required viewing. I wonder how many here have watched it.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Nov 18, 2015 - 09:17am PT
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Ill Effects of Brazilian Peppers
They kill other vegetation by forming dense thickets and by chemically suppressing the growth of understory plants.
They cut down on kinds and total numbers of wildlife by destroying their usual food and shelter.
They hurt shorelines by disturbing natural fish-breeding habitat. They crowd out valuable mangroves. Their shallow roots allow erosion.
They are members of the same family as poison ivy, poison oak, and poison sumac. Any part of the plant can cause skin irritation in some
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Nov 18, 2015 - 09:31am PT
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MikeMC posted this on the first page. I agree that it should be required viewing. I wonder how many here have watched it.
I watched it and want my 6 minutes back!
For everyone who doesn't want to waste 6 minutes, here's a synopsis:
Interviewers: there seem to be an inordinate amount of human rights violations in the muslim world . . .
interviewee: No you ignoramuses--you're just talking about Saudi Arabia and Africa and Pakistan and Afghanistan (and maybe a bunch of other primarily Muslim countries?)--there aren't human rights abuses in Turkey and Malaysia.
And you're stereotyping by blaming all one billion muslims for the actions of only a couple hundred million of them!
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John M
climber
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Nov 18, 2015 - 09:45am PT
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wow.. I feel bad for you blahblah.. your post leaves me kind of speechless.
I suppose all lawyers are as#@&%es because 20 percent of them are as#@&%es..
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Nov 18, 2015 - 09:48am PT
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Except that Resa Aslan is a joke.
Resa Aslan is a poster child for the "regressive left." I suggests anyone who is taken in by him needs to research the subject a little deeper. Maajid Nawaz and Aayan Hirsi Ali are good places to start. Aslan's denial (paradoxically if you like) helps to hobble (1) those muslims trying to bring reform to Islam and (2) those muslims trying to escape from under its fundamentalist yoke.
Resa's "regressive left" "posture" is also reflected in this widely seen tension among libs between Bill Maher/ Sam Harris and Ben Affleck, the latter showing no in-depth understanding at all.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vln9D81eO60
Fundamentalist Islam is a mother lode - to borrow a term - of illiberal beliefs/values. Repeat: illiberal beliefs / illiberal values. Ben Affleck and his ilk need to do the required work and get up to speed on this subject. Till they do, they are obstacles to Islamic reform and they are obstacles to the flourishing of liberal principles in the Middle East.
Resa Aslan is an enabler.
Resa Aslan needs to sit down or go away.
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John M
climber
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Nov 18, 2015 - 10:00am PT
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Resa Aslan is a poster child for the "regressive left." I suggests anyone who is taken in by him needs to research the subject a little deeper.
I suggest that you look a little closer at the video. He never suggested that there were not problems. He was trying to explain that it isn't because of Islam. Its because of people. He uses the countries in Africa to explain. Such as the countries which are Christian, yet practice female mutilation. The idea is to look further then the religion, and look at the root, which is people. People can take any belief and screw it up.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Nov 18, 2015 - 10:01am PT
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I've watched the video (edit: or related videos) many times beginning several months ago (edit: beginning years ago).
Resa Aslan is an enabler. Research every Muslim now in the limelight serious about bringing reform to Islam, serious about combating Islamism (the politicization of Islam) and you'll see consensus, the accuracy of my post and also their view of Resa.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reza_Aslan#Criticisms
He constantly criticizes criticisms of fundamentalist Islam and Sharia law - bristling with illiberalism - going back years now.
Don't take my word for it. See any top ten list of serious scholarly reformists of Islam (for lack of a better word) and chances are somewhere in their work or twitters or wherever they have something to say about Resa Aslan and his approach and his cronies.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Nov 18, 2015 - 10:11am PT
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DMT has a good point about over reaction.
In this case an over reaction would be to resettle these people on our shores. Sure, Obama and Hillary exacerbated the problem by shipping massive amounts of arms from the Libya they had just destroyed to unknown elements in Syria to destroy The government of Assad. And now we should take their assurances that the 10,000 to 250,000 refugees they were an integral part of creating won't contain a radical element intent on mayhem. Why should we listen to them any more than Bush before them? Why should we listen to the feel good progressives attempts to lessen their feelings of guilt?
If you can't resettle them there, then don't break their countries.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 18, 2015 - 10:12am PT
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John M....you are certainly right about people being able to screw up any religion. Look at what people in this country have done with Christianity.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Nov 18, 2015 - 10:13am PT
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I suggest that you look a little closer at the video . . .
John, I suggest you take a little closer look at sharia.
E.g., what is the proper punishment for adultery?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 18, 2015 - 10:13am PT
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Assad = Obama's Saddam Hussein
We need to quit putting important decisions in the hands of elected idiots.
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John M
climber
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Nov 18, 2015 - 10:14am PT
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What I saw on the video was the news reporters trying to demonize muslims. He was simply showing that its not really about muslims, its about people. His examples were telling. I have no idea whatever else he has been up to. Thats not my point.
Blahblah.. I am familiar with Sharia. Sharia isn't necessarily fully accepted by every Muslim, anymore then most Christians today following only the old testaments an eye for an eye.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 18, 2015 - 10:38am PT
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French journalist Nicolas Henin was a prisoner of ISIS and a cellmate of several of the beheaded journalists. Among other things, he had this to say about the mindset of his captors:
"With their news and social media interest, they will be noting everything that follows their murderous assault on Paris, and my guess is that right now the chant among them will be ‘We are winning’."
"They will be heartened by every sign of overreaction, of division, of fear, of racism, of xenophobia; they will be drawn to any examples of ugliness on social media."
"Central to their world view is the belief that communities cannot live together with Muslims, and every day their antennae will be tuned towards finding supporting evidence…Cohesion, tolerance – it is not what they want to see.”
When the IRA was terrorizing London, the Londoners felt it was their patriotic duty to continue life unafraid. They still pursued the terrorists, but they resolved not to let the violence destroy their way of life. Similarly, Lincoln was urged to postpone the 1864 election. His response was that if he did so, the Confederacy could rightly say that they had defeated and conquered us.
If we surrender to the mindless hate of ISIS by tarring all Syria, all Muslims or all middle easterners with that brush, ISIS accomplishes its purposes. We need to defeat ISIS on the ground in Syria and Iraq, but we cannot surrender our own liberty and tolerance in the process.
John
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John M
climber
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Nov 18, 2015 - 10:40am PT
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Excellent post JohnE
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Nov 18, 2015 - 10:41am PT
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Very much in agreement, John.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 18, 2015 - 10:44am PT
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Note that the bizarre beliefs prevalent in BOTH the Koran and the Bible have provided justification down through the ages for BOTH Christians and Muslims visiting unspeakable atrocities on their fellow humans.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Nov 18, 2015 - 10:46am PT
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No JE. We don't need to defeat ISIS on the ground there. We don't need to expend more blood and treasure. We need to quit breaking their governments. We need to isolate the radicals there and let the people of those countries deal with them themselves.
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 18, 2015 - 10:48am PT
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Spot on, John.
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John M
climber
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Nov 18, 2015 - 10:54am PT
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Jim, I have no problems with recognizing the history of various religions, as long as its acknowledged that the unifying element in every problem is human weakness. There have certainly been plenty of atrocities done for power, lust, greed and just plain meanness that had nothing to do with religion.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 18, 2015 - 11:09am PT
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Note that the bizarre beliefs prevalent in BOTH the Koran and the Bible have provided justification down through the ages for BOTH Christians and Muslims visiting unspeakable atrocities on their fellow humans.
I'm curious which "bizarre beliefs" the Bible presents that justify Christian violence. About the only violence of which I'm aware was given allegorically by Jesus, "If your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better to enter life with one eye than to be cast into hell with both, etc." The violence involved in the Exodus and conquest of Canaan was confined explicitly to that time and place.
The fact that Christians or Muslims commit antisocial acts doesn't mean that their religion condones or promotes those acts. As Larry Nelson opined on another thread, the intentional killing perpetrated by secular regimes headed by the likes of Stalin, Hitler, Mao and Pol Pot might exceed the killing (intentional and otherwise) perpetrated in the name of religion from many previous centuries combined.
John
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Nov 18, 2015 - 11:17am PT
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John- "I did not come to bring peace to the earth; I did not come to bring peace but a sword" (Matt. 10:34) for instance. People are also more than happy to quote the old testament. It's all the Bible, after all, and when you're looking for some sort of justification of what you want to do you won't have trouble finding it. I mean if people can convince themselves that buying their pastor a private jet is what Jesus wanted then I'm not sure how you can be so puzzled as to how they get a justification for war.
Surprisingly, Stalin and Hitler had nothing on many previous centuries. Genghis Khan, with none of the fancy bombs or bullets, killed 40 million+ people.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Nov 18, 2015 - 11:19am PT
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Nov 18, 2015 - 12:27pm PT
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What does Australia have to do with this Monolith?
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Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
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Nov 18, 2015 - 12:40pm PT
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That Quote from John, yeah.
And: Christian Bibles contain both the Old and New Testaments. Many fundamentalist Christians pay close, close attention to the bloody, vengeful God of the Old Testament. To say nothing of their batshit readings of Revelation.
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John M
climber
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Nov 18, 2015 - 12:46pm PT
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"I did not come to bring peace to the earth; I did not come to bring peace but a sword" (Matt. 10:34)
the sword Jesus is talking about here is the sword of Truth. It is not a physical sword.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired Climber
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Nov 18, 2015 - 01:02pm PT
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Excellent post JohnE
+1
and I agree somewhat with Rick, although the boots on the ground should be those of ME countries.
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perswig
climber
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Nov 18, 2015 - 03:31pm PT
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http://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=456459448
Thank you, Governor Inslee, for reminding us to include compassion and common sense in our decision-making.
Dale
(edit: heard this early AM. Reading the transcript, I'm quite sure he said "whole load of munitions" on ISIS, rather than what's printed; lest someone gets their panties twisted that the Wash Gov is advocating re-arm/resupply drops)
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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Nov 18, 2015 - 04:55pm PT
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Hey Chaz: loved your comment about elected idiots - It was REAGAN and BUSH Sr. who masterminded the sale of weapons to IRAN in arguably the most appalling act of U.S. political treason of the 20th century. It is called Iran-Contra. Read all about it and learn something about your nation's history before you so casually toss dirt at Obama.
And the U.S. press, to its eternal disgrace more or less ignored this outrage.
By the way, the French government has announce that it will continue to shelter refugees...
The quality of mercy is not an earthly thing
It falleth as the gentle rain from Heaven
It twice blesseth
It blesseth him that gives
And him that receives
Forgive me if my Shakespeare quote isn't verbatim, but it sure is close enough for these purposes.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 18, 2015 - 05:12pm PT
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Stewart,
I know Ollie's sister. I taught his nephew to climb.
All you know is something you read, written by someone who wasn't there.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 18, 2015 - 05:38pm PT
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aisal Saeed Al Mutar
November 15 at 4:27pm �
It must be incredibly frustrating as an Islamic terrorist not to have your views and motives taken seriously by the societies you terrorize, even after you have explicitly and repeatedly stated them. Even worse, those on the regressive left, in their endless capacity for masochism and self-loathing, have attempted to shift blame inwardly on themselves, denying the terrorists even the satisfaction of claiming responsibility.
It's like a bad Monty Python sketch:
"We did this because our holy texts exhort us to to do it."
"No you didn't."
"Wait, what? Yes we did..."
"No, this has nothing to do with religion. You guys are just using religion as a front for social and geopolitical reasons."
"WHAT!? Did you even read our official statement? We give explicit Quranic justification. This is jihad, a holy crusade against pagans, blasphemers, and disbelievers."
"No, this is definitely not a Muslim thing. You guys are not true Muslims, and you defame a great religion by saying so."
"Huh!? Who are you to tell us we're not true Muslims!? Islam is literally at the core of everything we do, and we have implemented the truest most literal and honest interpretation of its founding texts. It is our very reason for being."
"Nope. We created you. We installed a social and economic system that alienates and disenfranchises you, and that's why you did this. We're sorry."
"What? Why are you apologizing? We just slaughtered you mercilessly in the streets. We targeted unwitting civilians - disenfranchisement doesn't even enter into it!"
"Listen, it's our fault. We don't blame you for feeling unwelcome and lashing out."
"Seriously, stop taking credit for this! We worked really hard to pull this off, and we're not going to let you take it away from us."
"No, we nourished your extremism. We accept full blame."
"OMG, how many people do we have to kill around here to finally get our message across?"
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Nov 18, 2015 - 05:41pm PT
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is it similarly frustrating to come off as a tw#t?
no seriously, post more yarblegarble. folks will read it next time. I think.
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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Nov 18, 2015 - 06:24pm PT
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Chaz: how open minded of you to associate with the sister and nephew of a traitor to your nation. Anyone who is capable of objective judgement will agree that my statements are factual, and I clearly remember my assertions being reported by respectable media sources.
I invite all readers of this post to check out the events of the Iran-Contra scandal for themselves and form their own opinions. Ollie North was a traitor - he sold arms to Khomeini's Iranian government for money. That is what they call a FACT.
Hey TGT: What makes you think lefties are self-loathing? I'm proud of my beliefs and at least attempt to ensure that my opinions are backed up by facts. Fox news is not considered the source of objective insight by those with a functioning brain, so maybe if you could find rational sources for information you might actually start to display a glimmer of objective thought on occasion.
Still hoping that your Tea Party heroes get elected so that you can get a job in a concentration camp, TGT?
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross.*
*Sinclair Lewis.
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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Nov 18, 2015 - 06:58pm PT
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Gee... what kind of idiot would think that I stated that Ollie's nephew was culpable?
I actually commended Chaz for his open-mindedness.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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Nov 18, 2015 - 07:20pm PT
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Chaz...Was the nephew Peter North...?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 18, 2015 - 07:47pm PT
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Andy. Different last name.
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Yury
Mountain climber
T.O.
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Nov 18, 2015 - 08:03pm PT
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He is getting pressure from Iran not to react too harshly to ISIS also. Awesome, our prez taking orders from Iran. Jody, please go to e.g. Wikipedia and read about Sunni and Shia. It would help you to better understand root causes of this conflict.
When talking about Middle East countries and organizations, you need to stop calling all of them Muslims, and start thinking in terms like Sunni, Shia, Alawites etc.
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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Nov 18, 2015 - 09:01pm PT
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If I back-edited, I guess I did, but I had had no awareness that it was a big deal - I simply don't have the computer smarts (or interest) to remember every point that I'm responding to. I was unaware that this was a big deal.
That aside, read the words. I believe they were written in the English language.
I'll offer you an explanation that you certainly don't deserve, so here goes...
The kind of mind-set that Chaz represents doesn't hesitate to question the patriotism of those who disagree with them.
Ollie sold arms to the enemies of the United States, which makes him a traitor. I was marvelling at the fact that he would associate with Ollie's relatives. To assume that Ollie's relatives shared his warped values would be to utilize the same poor logic that would assume that all Muslims are terrorists.
I have watched numerous documentaries about the children and other relatives of war criminals who have devoted their lives to attempt to erase the stain on their families honour.
I know nothing about Ollie's sister or his nephew and, for all I know, they could be members of the Communist Party of the United States. I have no quarrel with either of them, unless they actually approved of Ollie selling weapons to the enemies of the United States.
If any of this is too complicated for you to understand, find an adult to explain it to you.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 18, 2015 - 10:18pm PT
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If Weinberger, McFarlane, Poindexter, Abrams, Fiers, George, and North were rotting in prison for treason as they should be then W and the neocons would never have gone to the lengths they did to start the Iraq War and we wouldn't be in the shitstorm we're in today as a result. His father's pardons were an enormous disservice to the nation and directly contributed to the current situation.
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Nov 19, 2015 - 07:51am PT
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When Obama was elected, he inherited a situation not of his making, just as all new presidents do.
I remember Biden calling the situation in Iraq the administration's biggest foreign policy success.
What happened?
The consensus seems to be that ousting Saddam was a bad decision.
How was trying to oust Assad a better decision?
How was ousting Ghadaffi a better decision?
To lay the blame on previous administrations for every foreign policy failure has Harry Truman rolling over in his grave.
The ME is an alphabet soup of factions, cultures, grievances and corruption.
Stepping into it is costly and ignoring it is costly.
No easy answers there.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Nov 19, 2015 - 08:07am PT
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Iraq was relatively stable. Invading with faked up reasons (WMDs) is far different then aiding factions in countries already descended into civil war (Libya, Syria).
Not much anyone could have done to keep Iraq stable after we left, unless Hussein could have been resurrected.
Edit for DMT: I should have been clear, that I was referring to those upthread who claim our involvement in Libya and Syria was no different than what we did to Iraq.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 19, 2015 - 09:01am PT
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ISIS is doing more than selling oil. They're refining it too.
It's not rocket science, especially diesel.
"Syrians take up back yard refining of crude oil"
http://www.news.com.au/world/syrians-take-up-back-yard-refining-of-crude-oil/story-fndir2ev-1226623043801
They got to keep these running:
I'd love one of those Toyotas. I could do without the heavy machine gun mount, I'd put a shell on it. But for some reason, rugged, reliable, cheap, efficient diesel trucks can't be sold here.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 19, 2015 - 09:28am PT
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So the guy driving the truck, and the guy in the back, they can come into the country.
But the truck isn't welcome here.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 19, 2015 - 09:33am PT
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But the truck isn't welcome here.
Because they all go to the ME! Why don't we pressure Nissan to quit sending Daesh vehicles?
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Nov 19, 2015 - 09:44am PT
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So the guy driving the truck, and the guy in the back, they can come into the country.
But the truck isn't welcome here.
lol!
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Mar 26, 2017 - 08:53pm PT
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^^^that was jus a practice sesh. Those guys were just havin fun.
I can understand mans infatuation for hittin a movin target;)
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