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| Messages 1 - 20 of total 20 in this topic |
couchmaster
climber
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Nov 12, 2015 - 08:30pm PT
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Old news. We all already know that within a few miles of seashore, especially in the more corrosive limestone, Titanium is the suggested material to use. 316 is only the minimum if non-limestone and further inland. In the pure mountain air, stainless 18-8 series (the 300 stuff) will last for several lifetimes I would expect. Camen Brac, Railay, Greece: limestone by the ocean: Titanium only.
quote: "The UIAA Safety Commission is
working on finding anchors with material suitable for these
environments......usually along seasides but can be some kilometers away from the coast
"
As far as the "no 304 for outdoor use", that sounds like overreach on the Uiaa's part to me. I saw with my own eyes a @35-40 year old placement of 300 series wedge anchor with a homemade steel hanger in one of the wetter, non-sea locations in the US (Columbia River Gorge). The stainless wedge anchor was still perfect, shiny in fact as if new, the steel hanger was massively rusted out.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Nov 12, 2015 - 08:43pm PT
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Well, since I live on the Pacific coast, I made sure that the surgeons only used Titanium hardware when they bolted me back together.
Of course, that was a long time ago, and I'm probably due for retrobolting, so would one of you Yosemite guys make sure that Erik Sloan isn't allowed near me. No way I want steel.
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2015 - 08:49pm PT
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18-8 series will last for several lifetimes I would expect.
Couch,
If I am not mistaken, 304 is in the 18-8 group. Look at the last table on the last page of the UIAA paper, if I am reading it correctly, 304 is not recommended anywhere.
A 2015 paper is old news?
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Nov 12, 2015 - 10:02pm PT
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All the areas listed in the report would be considered 'sea cliff' type of environments. Titanium seems to be the only reasonable solution for these types of areas.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Nov 12, 2015 - 10:15pm PT
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How about indoor use in Costa Mesa?
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FRUMY
Trad climber
Bishop,CA
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Nov 13, 2015 - 10:48am PT
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It's amazing what a little salt can do.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Nov 13, 2015 - 01:45pm PT
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I think it goes beyond salt.
304 stainless is not recommended in an environment where suphuric acid is present in ANY concentration......
You know....
Like anywhere downwind from a chinese coal fired power plant. So basically the entire continent.
Also, don't pee on 304 bolts. urea degrades it.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 13, 2015 - 02:02pm PT
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Interesting to know.
John
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couchmaster
climber
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Nov 13, 2015 - 03:39pm PT
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18-8/304 same same Dan. Some Mfg's wedge anchors are 303, some 304 - still 18-8 same same. UIAA statement applies, but I suspect that it's really bs for the mountains or normal, non-limestone, non-salt water area cliffs is what I was noting.
And to add to Lorenzo's statement, if you have a climbing wall inside of a paper mill, be careful about using 18-8 wedge anchors in there either:-)
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FRUMY
Trad climber
Bishop,CA
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Nov 13, 2015 - 06:22pm PT
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Have you ever seen what happens to metals around Tabasco sauce. The fork lifts at the Tabasco plant have to be replaced every three years. They look 100 years old & are rotted through.
For those of you that don't know what is meant by 18-8 it's the amount of chrome 18% & nickel 8%.
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JimT
climber
Munich
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Nov 13, 2015 - 11:47pm PT
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I think it goes beyond salt.
304 stainless is not recommended in an environment where suphuric acid is present in ANY concentration......
You know....
Like anywhere downwind from a chinese coal fired power plant. So basically the entire continent.
Also, don't pee on 304 bolts. urea degrades it.
Titanium is also attacked by sulphuric acid, in fact it´s generally worse than stainless steel in that respect. Fortunately there are other stainless grades which are immune at normal temperatures like 2205.
Urea corrodes 304 but this grade is considered to have satisfactory resistance to urine, for a urea-resistant grade you go to 316 (there are special versions of 316 specifically for the urea industry).
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 14, 2015 - 07:18am PT
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I was once doing some programming work at a seaside paper mill here in Oregon back in the early 90's. They had a car wash / spray rig for cars exiting the facility because the acid in the air on site was so bad. While I was there I also found out only part of their computer problems were software-related. Turns out they had to replace motherboards every 6-9 months due to same caustic exposure combined with ocean air and as they started failing it caused a lot of havoc as well.
I kept that gig as short as humanly possible.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
Bishop,CA
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Nov 14, 2015 - 10:22am PT
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30 years ago I would have said stay away from Titanium, it's light but brittle. The more corrosion resistant you make TI the more brittle it becomes. I would think that 316 would be fine and 317 even better.
I wonder what Bob Kamps was using back in the 60's. We were doing a climb, he had put up about 25 years earlier, about half way up my pitch I went to clip the bolt and pulled it out. It was a 1/4" and only about a 1/2 inch deep. At the belay I showed him the bolt & he laughed & said the stance was poor he needed to get moving as fast as possible & he never thought anyone would want to do any of his routes. The bolt itself was in good shape & so were all the others on the route.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Nov 14, 2015 - 11:45am PT
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Erik Sloan says that to be safe, you need to put a ladder of belay bolts on every pitch. And, just to be safe, a bail-anchor bolted belay forty feet off the ground. Erik's not intelligent enough to divine the difference between this metal or that metal - just drill, baby, drill!
Oh, and that UIAA article doesn't reference any climbing areas described by Supertopo. Their concern is seaside limestone and dolomite. Titanium glue-in bolts have been common in such areas for decades.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Nov 14, 2015 - 12:17pm PT
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Careful: if you read the report, it turns out that "seaside" could mean "20 miles from the sea," which isn't exactly the same as "seaside." Moreover, places subject to certain types of industrial pollution might qualify even though they're nowhere near a coast.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
Bishop,CA
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Nov 16, 2015 - 05:16pm PT
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bump
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Rolfr
Trad climber
La Quinta and Penticton BC
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Nov 16, 2015 - 05:50pm PT
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316 is the Gold standard, unfortunately the price is exponentially more than 304.
My favorite take away from the article "This means that the bulk of the climbing population needs to start paying for anchors, whereas in
the past most had a “free ride”.
I wonder how many Taco readers contribute to the Access Fund, too many new climbers have an expectation that it is their right to have safe well protected routes without contributing to the sport.
Blah blah blah, probably just talking to stoned deaf ears.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 16, 2015 - 06:12pm PT
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316 is the Gold standard, unfortunately the price is exponentially more than 304. My partner has been using 316 in all our new (granite) routes for several years now.
I recall his cost is about $2.50 for each 3/8" x 2.25" 316 SS wedge bolt. Add $2 for a hanger, for $4.50 total.
This compares with about $1 for the same size 304 SS wedge bolt ($3 total). Not really that much different in total cost.
Compare with Bob D'Antonio - I've heard he is still using non-stainless wedge bolts.... I think those cost maybe $.25 or $.50 each per bolt ($2.25 to $2.50 total with hanger).
I think his new routes are in New Mexico, so probably the bolts are not rusting as fast as in some other areas.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 17, 2015 - 09:06pm PT
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So much for his "just say thank you" attitude if that's true.
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