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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 30, 2015 - 09:42am PT
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I have only used the 3/8 drill bits in a standard Petzl hand drill with a Yosemite hammer. My goal is to have a lighter 'just in case' set up to hand drill quarter inchers (I don't even know if these things are properly called rivets or bolts!). I noticed that bringing my set up is a lot of weight to haul, because I don't have to place many bolts even on long face routes. Longer drill times results in longer runouts too. If the route turns out to be something that other people should climb, I would likely go back and replace the shorties with a 3/8 stainless steel bolt. Since I am a complete noob regarding the subject, I was wondering if someone could answer a few questions...
1) Is there a different hand drill I should use (lighter is a plus, drill faster is a plus too!), or the one I have is good enough? It is heavy and bulky IMO.
2) Drill bit preference?
3) I heard that when you use 1/4"ers you should not use stainless steel?
Anyone has a preferred source to buy those? Cheap/quality/light=good!
Any recommendations to cut weight and drill quicker holes is appreciated. It is for 'just in case' backcountry use. Welcome to link to your preferred drill bits, hammers, rivets and hand drills to make it easier for me. Or link to reading I should do to further learn about the subject. I am more of a hands on and visual learner though. I like to see how things work and do it, to understand. Reading a lot does not usually help...
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Sep 30, 2015 - 09:43am PT
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Get a 1/4 speed steel drill extension from the hardware store and cut it to the length you want. Cheap, works ok...
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Sep 30, 2015 - 09:46am PT
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Vitals...
Get a hold of "Two Shoes" cus he may just have some older ones in his supply of goodies. If not, he knows a great machinist/climber that will make you one. The same machinist that made the three of mine. 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2" some 16 or so years ago.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Being In Sierra Happy Of Place
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Sep 30, 2015 - 09:49am PT
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Yer gonna die!
%^)
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Sep 30, 2015 - 10:40am PT
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I used to make these little holders for A-Taper bits. About as small as a holder can be. Not many people want them but some friends have them and use them. I only seem to have one left but they are pretty easy to make. Made from 3/4" hex 4140 steel and hardened. The drift pin for removing the bit is made from a grade 8 bolt. A-Taper bits aren't common but I think Relton still sells them. A-Taper bits can usually be found on Ebay.
I also have boxes of 1/4" anchors. I don't know if you can get hangers but Moses was making them for awhile. I have some I made from stainless steel.
I consider 1/4" to be temporary.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2015 - 11:21am PT
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Banquo, if you have a complete small set up like that I can buy, let me know please. This is exactly what I would like and put it to good use, hopefully.
(appropriate hand drill, drill bit(s), bolts and hangers. And smaller hammer of choice advice? I know you test these things!)
xxvitaliyxx@yahoo.com
I live in the Bay Area. Can travel to pick it up. No hurry here, I am preparing for the next summer :)
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Sep 30, 2015 - 12:53pm PT
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Sounds like there are two people who might want one. I could make a few up if people want to offer something for them. Message me.
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The Alpine
climber
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Sep 30, 2015 - 12:57pm PT
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Sounds like there are two people who might want one. I could make a few up if people want to offer something for them. Message me.
REWARD
Get Vitaly a lightweight small drill setup and he'll let you tag along on one of his epics next year!
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Sep 30, 2015 - 01:05pm PT
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You can use a regular hand drill (like the rocpec) and just buy a 1/4" SDS bit, the side that goes into the drill will be the same size.
Now where can you buy 1/4" bolts and which hangers work with them?
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Sep 30, 2015 - 01:34pm PT
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The Petzl Rocpec is by far the lightest drill particularly when wrenches/drift pins are taken into account (it needs none). Get (or make) a shorter, lightweight hammer (unless you're planning on using a lot of pitons too). Fixe sells 1/4" buttonheads (actually looks like they are out of stock), they are also available various places, you want the 1/4 x 1.25" and/or 1.5" of these: http://www.powers.com/product_03601.php.
I've found that considering the (huge) time and effort to get back to long high stuff, it's better to just use 3/8" off the bat. 1/4" are better for desperate stances on "cragging" routes where you can easily return to replace the bolts.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Sep 30, 2015 - 01:45pm PT
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True, but every stance feels pretty desperate after about 20 min of no hands! :)
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Sep 30, 2015 - 04:28pm PT
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Frankly, I don't think you will save that much weight going from 3/8" to 1/4" especially if, as you say in your OP, that you are only going to use this setup for emergencies. The hangers weigh the same and so does the drill holder(as Greg Barnes said, the Petzl RocPec is the lightest drill out there and you can get 1/4" SDS bits for it).
You will save a bit of weight on the bolts, but if you are only carrying a few is it worth leaving a 1//4" bolt for others to find especially if you are hoping that others will repeat your routes! It doesn't make sense for the situation you are describing.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Sep 30, 2015 - 04:53pm PT
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^^^^^ I'm guessing he's trying to save some effort and time on the drilling from a desperate spot as a last resort. Maybe not though, could be weight.
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Sep 30, 2015 - 06:45pm PT
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This got me thinking about how small an SDS holder could be. The absolute minimum is a striking surface that attaches to the bit. So, I went down to the garage and made one. Hardened 4140 steel, nylon patch set screws that shouldn't vibrate loose and an Allen key to change bits. I would prefer a no tool bit change but compromises must be made. I see this as an emergency use type deal. It is only 2" long and with the Allen key weighs 105 grams or 3.7 ounces - about half what a Rocpec weighs. Will fit any SDS Plus bit. I could drill holes in it and make it even lighter. Took about 30 minutes to make not counting the time it spent soaking in the heat. If I made another, I would move the set screws a little.
Shown with a 1/4" SDS Plus bit.
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Sep 30, 2015 - 07:30pm PT
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This is minimalist so no grips or sleeves. Knuckle busting only.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Sep 30, 2015 - 07:34pm PT
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That looks identical to a speed steel extension
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F10
Trad climber
Bishop
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Sep 30, 2015 - 08:22pm PT
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PM me if still interested. I have an old Rawl 1/4" hand drill and bolts.
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mikeyschaefer
climber
Sport-o-land
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Sep 30, 2015 - 08:25pm PT
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I've used the Rocpec extensively and have alway been happy with it. Before that I used an old Pica drill with set screws. More than once I couldn't get the set screw out and was left cursing the piece of sh#t. So I'm still a bit scared of anything that uses set screws especially when drilling from stances where you can't be fiddling around with an Allen key.
The hilti bits that were mentioned up thread are definitely the way to go. Get the 4" and not the 6" And as far as hangers go I just used the lightest weight 3/8" hanger I can find. I tried the Moses hangers but they completely fell apart when trying to remove them to enlarge the hole to 3/8". I wouldn't recommend them if ever plan to replace the bolt. The Petzl Aluminium hangers hold up better but still not great. They are way light!
If you want to go even lighter just use a washer instead of a hanger and either put a Dyneema sling or a stopper behind it. Totally bomber and as light as can be.
And here is where I get my 1/4 anchors from . http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-anchors/=z66ib5
I've placed hundreds of the 1/"4 x 1 1/4" and have always felt they were pretty solid. Can't even tell you how many whippers I've taken on them.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Sep 30, 2015 - 08:54pm PT
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Banquo has shown restraint in not hyping, in this thread, his hammers- The Dammer.
They're designed and tested specifically for hand drilling.
Mine works great with a Rocpec and Hilti bit.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Sep 30, 2015 - 08:57pm PT
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Mikey, why would enlarge a 1/4" Moses hanger to 3/8"?
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msiddens
Trad climber
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Sep 30, 2015 - 09:26pm PT
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Wow sweet rig Banq
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Sep 30, 2015 - 10:12pm PT
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Thanks drljefe
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Sep 30, 2015 - 10:21pm PT
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Also, the Pika drill holder sucked. I have drilled enough holes with one to know. I would never let anything so dysfunctional leave my garage.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Sep 30, 2015 - 11:02pm PT
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Hammers...
For new routes I usually go with one with a longer pick... Better at cleaning out cracks
For lots of nailing I go with the modified bd
For long walks/emergency/light weight use I go with the modified Snow Peaks peg hammer
I was serious about the speed steel extension. Admittedly it's not the best (set screws) but works ok. Cost under $10. I know they've seemed to have fallen out of favor but modified chisel tip cobalt steels drill the fastest. Unfortunately they dull pretty quickly. Especially compared to sds.
I had the opposite problem mikeyshafer had with his pika... Could never get the set screws to stay tight.
The drills I'm using now are old rawl A-tapers that have been bored out to a larger size. Similar to the one banquo showed. The one with the drift pin.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 30, 2015 - 11:22pm PT
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Vitaly- The lightest workable drilling setup for any diameter drill between 1/4" and 3/8" is to cut down an SDS to A taper adapter and pick your A taper drill diameter. An A taper drill is set and removed with a drift pin like an old style Rawl handle. I will try and post a photo of my setup for you but it will take a little while because I am headed out climbing real soon.
You end up with a 1" X 1 1/2" cylinder with a drift pin hole in it for a striker which you can pad with a little rubber bicycle handle bar grip material. This isn't a set up that you want to drill a bunch of holes with but it makes a serviceable light emergency setup which seems to be what you are after.
Bosch makes these so you should be able to find one to cut down without too much problem. A 5/16" drill is a bit less delicate if you are using this setup and you get a beefier bolt so you can use stainless with confidence rather than split shaft mild steel buttonheads which are time bombs.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 1, 2015 - 09:56am PT
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WOW THANK YOU all for the input!
Banquo, PM sent.
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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So, I am putting together a hammer and drill holder for Vitaliy. He has agreed to trade goods of fair value for the gear.
The hammer is DAMMERR #43. I have cut the face off the standard DAMMERR head so the head is shorter but the length of the pick remains unchanged. I have also cut a slice off the top of the head to further lighten it. The handle is shorter than standard also - 12". I have trimmed about 7 ounces off the hammer. I installed the steel reinforcing tube so it should stand up to years of use.
The holder is about 2 1/4" long. It's hard to get a good grip on it but I think it will be fine for 1/4" drills since you don't need to torque as much. I have finally figured out a way to keep the set screws from vibrating loose that I am confident in. I simply coated the threads with blue (medium strength) Permatex Threadlocker. This stuff really works but may need to be reapplied once in awhile. For the occasional use I expect maybe once a season or so. The screws can be loosened and re-tightened multiple times and it still seems to work.
Also an Allen key with cable loop.
I am waiting on some heat shrink rubber grip that I plan to glue with Barge Cement. The grip should be here by tomorrow.
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martygarrison
Trad climber
Washington DC
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I don't even know if these things are properly called rivets or bolts!
Vitaliy some of us, me, only drilled 1/4 inch bolts for many years, so yes bolts!
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Grippa
Trad climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Sickkkkk
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cavemonkey
Ice climber
ak
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Bumping tards that hand drill
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Crag Q
Trad climber
Louisville, Colorado
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Oct 10, 2015 - 06:27am PT
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Very cool mini holder Banqo.
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Norman Claude
climber
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Oct 10, 2015 - 07:05am PT
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Vitaly
Best way to sharpen bits is to break them in half. Take a Yo hammer and smack the spine of the bit. Makes the bit shorter, sharp as tacks and extends the life of a bit on a route.
Very caveman.
1/4" bolts are temporary? I'll have to tell Kamps that when we meet at the Grill in the Sky.
NormanClaude
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Oct 10, 2015 - 09:33am PT
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dan-
if that stubby handle extended down the bit shaft to allow a better (but heavier) grip do you think it would be a downside?
Just have 2.5"-3" from drill point back exposed- maybe knurl the unit too.
then tape it and be done.
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Oct 10, 2015 - 01:24pm PT
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rick-
There are a million ways to design a drill holder.
I do have 4 or 5 on hand made from 7/8" Grade 5 bolts. The hex head is rounded off and a urethane rubber grip is cast in place. I mill dimples in the bolt shank to lighten it and to also fix the grip in place. These holders have a deep socket which exposes less of the drill. For the usual 3/8" x 6 1/4" bits about 3 1/2" is exposed. For the 1/4" bits that I have, about 1 3/4" of the bit is exposed which is adequate for a 1/4" x 1 1/2" button head with a hanger. Part of the socket is drilled oversize to 1/2" in order to lighten it and also to allow 1/2" bits to fit into the handle. They have a hardened steel dowel pin as a striking surface.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Oct 10, 2015 - 02:06pm PT
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^^^I am looking forward to putting mine to use Dan, thanks again!
I make my own hangers with a friend. Always used a rawl holder until dammerr products started showing up.
Sharpening sds bits if you are good with the wheel is the way to go.
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Oct 10, 2015 - 02:18pm PT
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Anytime Mucci, let me know if you need anything.
Vitaliy's finished.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 31, 2016 - 10:01am PT
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Had a chance to test out the Dammer 1/4 set up. Works well! Psyched!
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Mar 31, 2016 - 10:10am PT
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Sharpening sds bits if you are good with the wheel is the way to go.
Many of those carbide bits come from the factory rather dull. I think the idea is that an electric drill and high pressure is too much for a thin, sharp edge.
For hand drilling, I found that sharpening up the bits made a huge difference. The only thing is you have to tap rather lightly at first, until you've got the hole started. If you just smash away, you can chip the brittle carbide tip.
You'll need a silicon carbide wheel (green) because the aluminum oxide wheel (blue) is too soft to cut the carbide drill bit. Or, you could use diamond.
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