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AAA
Big Wall climber
The great America!
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 29, 2015 - 01:56am PT
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The cavers sometimes come into town and drape their mile-long static ropes down the east side. So if you can rap El Cap in one pitch, why not use the same mile-long ropes to do a TR solo of the Nose in one pitch? I bet Hans could up his record doing it that way, no?
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Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
the pitch above you
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Aug 29, 2015 - 06:35am PT
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Because it would not be a meaningful achievement?
Because it would be stupid?
Because it would be in the way of loads of other people?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 29, 2015 - 06:46am PT
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Triple A.....you need to check your batteries.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 29, 2015 - 07:29am PT
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You've obviously never worked with long ropes.
3000 footers not even 600 footers.
The logistics with the weight of the ropes cause all kinds of unforeseen problems that you can't see right now in your dreaming head.
Long ropes hanging free will blow you off the pitch in high winds.
We've had rescues on EL CAP where the winds were a factor in the rescue operation becoming exceedingly dangerous to the rescuer and patient.
YOSAR used to have 3000 footers but reduced them to 1300 footers due to them being unmanageable and too heavy.
The only way is tie the rope station to station with some slack between and mini-traxion the route.
And that is not possible during the regular climbing season on routes such as the nose.
Go to Bafin and do there ......
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Aug 29, 2015 - 07:40am PT
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Go to Bafin and do there ......
Not going to happen while BURT BRONSON still breathes.
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Crazy Bat
Sport climber
Birmingham, AL & Seweanee, TN
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Aug 29, 2015 - 07:51am PT
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The long ropes also weigh so much that they hang away from the face in inconvenient places. Those ropes we use hang 100 to 150 feet from the face in places.
Of course we choose a site with the minimum amount of contact with the face to get a free rappel and climb. Just jugging up the rope causes it to saw on the rock and can cut right through it. A single fall with the rope running across a sharp point could result in total rope failure.
Then there is the stretch in that length of rope. I've seen several people start thei climb. They have to climb 75 to 100 feet of rope before it take their weight. Imagine taking a fall with that much stretch.
BTW I'm scheduled to come with a group next year. I work support for the team.
By the way those ropes YOSAR had were impounded from a group that was running a commercial enterprise, charging people to rappel El Cap. They were not using safe practices. They had two ropes. The wind almost caused the ropes to tangle. I've heard they had one bad near miss with people on rope.
In 2012 I was there with a long rope. During rigging one of our guy's broke a finger and got a pretty good rope burn on his hand. On our team was the best rappeler in the world, IMHO. He had a special rappel rack and was able to evacuate the injured guy by doing a tethered rappel. It made my heart go pitty patter just watching it.
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RyanD
climber
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Aug 29, 2015 - 08:55am PT
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People top rope on el cap all the time in smaller sections before they free climb it.
I think they call it trad climbing or something.
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couchmaster
climber
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Aug 29, 2015 - 09:12am PT
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^^^ Working the route it's called.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Aug 29, 2015 - 09:28am PT
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Start at the top with two 70's. Rap and then TR each pitch until you are at the bottom. Each time you drop in on a party actually going up, explain to them that yours is the common sense approach and that soon enough everyone will be doing it this way.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Aug 29, 2015 - 09:30am PT
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Bwaahahahaha, oh that was funny! Good luck taking in slack when the climber yells up rope.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Aug 29, 2015 - 09:57am PT
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I'd try it
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the goat
climber
north central WA
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Aug 29, 2015 - 10:33am PT
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And equalize the anchor at the top, use 2 locking D's.
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GuapoVino
climber
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Aug 29, 2015 - 10:34am PT
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There's actually a "best rapeller in the world"?
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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Aug 29, 2015 - 10:45am PT
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"On our team was the best rappeler in the world, IMHO"
So I've got to ask, who would this be?
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dickcilley
Social climber
Wisteria Ln.
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Aug 29, 2015 - 11:59am PT
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It's been done.
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Crazy Bat
Sport climber
Birmingham, AL & Seweanee, TN
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Aug 29, 2015 - 12:13pm PT
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Tiny Manke. In my humble opinion. Well he has done things no body else has done.
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quartzmonzonite
climber
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Aug 29, 2015 - 12:30pm PT
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I havent climbed el cap but i would assume a mega toprope would cause some swing potential, also why would anyone take time to haul 3000ft of rope to the top, who knows how much that would weigh, in other words leading is easier than setting up and dealing with a 3000ft tr. Nd it would make u the biggest puss in climbing history.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Aug 29, 2015 - 12:40pm PT
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Say, this is turning out to be a great thread.
Seriously though, there may come a time when so many people want to climb that popular vroutes become more and more fixed, like Via Ferrata, making it a virtual TR.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
Boise, ID or the fricken Bakken, variously
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Aug 29, 2015 - 12:53pm PT
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Makes me want to go sport rappellinh, or some such.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Aug 29, 2015 - 01:03pm PT
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Skully, name suggestion for your band with that new guitar:
Zed Rappellin
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Aug 29, 2015 - 01:53pm PT
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There is probably a virtual reality helmet and gloves setup that would allow you to "TR Rope Solo The Nose in Five Minutes". Do that, since both El Capitan and Baffin Island are off-limits to grandiose gumby goof-ups.
I once saw a human mule train, of about ten guys, schlepping that 3000 foot caver's rope to the base of Mescalito. They looked like a theater troupe performing The Human Centipede.
I later saw their pals on the summit, well-stocked with freeze-dried camping food. I guess they didn't know that Horsetail Creek is kinda seasonal, and they should have just brought fresh food with the water still in it.
One time, Yvon Ynov told me he was going to lower his haul bags all the way off the summit of Zenyatta with a bunch of ropes all tied together. That was less than half the length of the Nose, and sounded like it was going to be an epic nightmare. I imagined they would need to cut the rope with the bags about halfway down, and just Fedex them the rest of the way into the Talus Wastes.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Aug 29, 2015 - 06:26pm PT
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Remember those cavers who hung a fully free hanging line off the dawn wall area, and timed their ascents?
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Aug 29, 2015 - 06:33pm PT
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Remember those cavers who hung a fully free hanging line off the dawn wall area, and timed their ascents?
When the line between rappelling and falling gets a bit grey.
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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Aug 29, 2015 - 08:28pm PT
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"When the line between rappelling and falling gets a bit grey."
duece4 did say ascent. They probably timed their climbs. (up the rope)
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Aug 29, 2015 - 08:44pm PT
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Whoops, that's actually kind of cool to jug that much. Some kind of freak crossfit jazz.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Aug 29, 2015 - 09:14pm PT
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The cavers came from all over the world, to yo-yo up and down, all day long.
They'd attach themselves at the summit to these two foot long, skinny u-bolt steel racks, which would take cross-clipped brake bars as needed. As they descended, they would add bars to compensate for the decreasing weight of rope below.
Then, at the base of South Seas, they would mount a Gibbs ascender to one boot, and another Gibbs to the knee, clip their chest harness around the rope, and then run like hell, ravenous for the Diving Board.
Those guys were cool enough. I thought it was odd that they took expensive, freeze-dried food to the summit of El Cap, where there is no water.
I guess it takes all types to fully enjoy the wonderment that is our National Park System.
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Crazy Bat
Sport climber
Birmingham, AL & Seweanee, TN
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Aug 29, 2015 - 09:25pm PT
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We actually timed both climbs and rappels. Those who rappel too fast cause too much heat to build up in their rappel devices and cause damage to the sheath of the rope. They get fussed at big time, especially if the rope has to be retired.
Most of us come from lower elevations so our times are not truly representative of our normal physical abilities. I think the fastest climb was 1 hour 45 minutes, a young guy who lived at altitude.
One poor girl was on rope for over 7 hours, she never gave up. She had physical limitations from having grounded twice while sky diving. Unfortunately she died while scuba diving in Australia last month.
Most of the rappels are in the 20 to 30 minute range. I've forgotten the time on the fastest rappel. They had traded water at the top for hauling gear off. One rapper got a pack that weighed around 100 pounds He couldn't go as slow as he wanted too but maintained control.
The climber who owned the packs swore there was no food in them. He didn't get to the base for 24 hours and found a mess where a bear had torn into them.
Since 2012 and the rescue rappel, Tiny always takes his super rack to the top. That sucker is about 3 feet long.
Edit: The timing of climbs wasn't for any particular reason. It did help with scheduling and people wanted to see if they improved from previous years or from earlier in the week. Some people just time things if they have the ability to do it.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Aug 29, 2015 - 09:28pm PT
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Top roping the Captain sounds like more fun than top roping at say, Carderock...
... imagine the burn if sending at warp speeds!
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jaaan
Trad climber
Chamonix, France
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Aug 30, 2015 - 02:59am PT
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Tiny Manke. In my humble opinion. Well he has done things no body else has done.
Tell us more...
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 30, 2015 - 07:42am PT
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I thought the AAA batteries for this thread would have worn down by now.
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overwatch
climber
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Aug 30, 2015 - 11:12am PT
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Looks like a perfectly flaked rope to me.
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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Aug 30, 2015 - 02:49pm PT
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^^^ ZZZZ ^^^
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DrDeeg
Mountain climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Aug 30, 2015 - 03:19pm PT
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Years ago a group of cavers planned to rappel the Leaning Tower. In one of the many come-the-Revolution conversations that took place in the Yosemite Lodge Bar, Galen Rowell and I had a plan. Get a group of climbers at the bottom and when the first rappeler is a couple of hundred feet from the end, pull as much stretch as possible out of the rope. Then sproing! when we let go.
Didn't happen, but the talk got us through a couple of beers.
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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Aug 30, 2015 - 04:41pm PT
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"Tiny Manke devised a method of having two people on rappel at a time."
This was done in fall of '81 or spring of '82 by people on the 1982 Mt. Thor rappel as practice.
Edit to add: This took place at Fantastic pit in Ellison's. T. Howard was one caver involved.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
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Aug 30, 2015 - 07:56pm PT
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Toproping El Cap He is grossly overweight.
Have a nice nesting of anchors at the belay, and I recommend a stitch plate.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 30, 2015 - 08:19pm PT
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There was a group of cavers there in June when we were climbing The Real Nose, jugging the rope in the middle of the night when temperatures were cool, and yacking up a storm seemingly all night long.
Finally in frustration, Shipoopoi screamed at them from El Cap Tower: "Hey, can you guys please be quiet?! There are seven people trying to sleep here!"
Instant and deafening silence.
Obviously they didn't know we were there. Perhaps they didn't realize that people actually climb El Cap, and sleep up there too. ;)
It was interesting to watch the cavers rappel. While they used nice long racks and brakebars, they sure as hell had no clue of how to rappel with a heavy load. Most had lightweight loads, but a few loads were obviously heavy. Everyone I saw rappelling had their loads tethered to their belay loop below their rap device, which is standard procedure for cavers. The problem with this method is that the load swings around underneath you, and in some instances these guys started rotating pretty quickly - dizzyingly so! - when the wind kicked up.
Not to mention that the load crushes your bollocks.
Are you cavers familiar with the method that wall climbers use to rappel with heavy loads? Whereby the rap device goes on the load, not on you? So you put the load on rappel, and then clip into it so you can "ride the pig" instead of having it ride you? As a caver, this method initially seemed counter-intuitive, but it is most assuredly the Better Way.
In June after we topped out on our route, the four of us completed a successful pulldown rappel of the entire distance of El Cap, or rather from our high capsule camp three pitches below the summit. Steve rigged the ropes for pulldown, Heather followed, and Cristobal - as our Patagonian big wall mountain master - came down last, pulling the ropes behind him. My job as Pig Master was to rap with nearly 300 pounds of gear. Fortunately, no problems, and no drama. Double rope pulldown, used a Grigri as my rap device on my pigs. Everything went perfectly, no drama, no spinning, no pain.
And no stuck ropes!
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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Aug 30, 2015 - 09:29pm PT
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I personally don't know who you're watching but cavers are well aware of how to rappel with loads. Maybe not so much the ones you see.
edit to add: I descend with a load by the same method as you except I don't use a grigri.
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Crazy Bat
Sport climber
Birmingham, AL & Seweanee, TN
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Aug 31, 2015 - 12:22am PT
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I had forgotten that tandem rappels happened at Thor. I knew everyone on that trip and was invited to go, but life got in the way. From what I was told the first tandem rappels was not planned. They just couldn't tell when the person below had gotten off rope because of the rope weight was so high.
Not all of the people who participate in the long rappels are cavers. Many people find there way to the group other ways. I've seen people do that rappel that I wouldn't want driving my truck. They ain't firing on all cylinders and it might be catching. Another reason I work support.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Aug 31, 2015 - 12:39am PT
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if you like climbing up long ropes just hike up half dome,
or stay home and watch desperate housewives,
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Gunkie
climber
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Aug 31, 2015 - 07:50am PT
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A1 becomes A5+ after 500 vertical feet. And A2 becomes Jim Beyer (sp?) territory.
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chill
climber
between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing
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On our team was the best rappeler in the world, IMHO.
Funniest thing I've read on the ol' interweb in a couple of days.
Thanks.
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Bryon Martin
climber
Ca
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Funny idea. Even funnier how many folks are taking it seriously. Toproping El Cap -- as if.
(Call me once you've got it set up.)
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Crazy Bat
Sport climber
Birmingham, AL & Seweanee, TN
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So I think he is best on Single Rope Techniques. LOL
400 lb test line? Not safe at all. However our group lowers a small haul line from the top and uses it to haul the main rope up. Not near as bad to carry several hundred pounds of rope 1/2 mile vs all the way to the top.
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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"Funny idea. Even funnier how many folks are taking it seriously. Toproping El Cap -- as if.
(Call me once you've got it set up.)"
Pardon me but I think it is a cool idea. Trying to set up a team as we speak. Let me get this straight.... you make fun of the idea then you want in on it? No sir, the glory will be ours.
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YYZ
climber
Alabama
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(I rapped and jugged EC back in July 2010 with the VBATS caver group.)
Some of the details being offered here by "the cavers" may need a bit more clarification.
The rope weighs ~180 lbs (+/- 5 lbs) not several hundred pounds (it's 11mm PMI max wear/pit rope). It is a custom order from PMI. Because they only make rope at 1200' lengths, it requires 2 splices to get to 3000'+. The inner-core threads are interleave/spliced over a distance of ~ 200'.
We (VBATS) plan our trip during the month of July - on purpose - to avoid as much as possible being a nuisance to the climbers (courtesy gesture, I suppose). From what I can tell, July is somewhat off-season due to the heat on the big wall, although there are a few faithful we do encounter...and interrupt slumber.
The night climbing is accurate, and I believe the "shut-up, we're trying to sleep" occurred on the 2010 trip. Funny - small world.
Brief story: During one EC trip a brief exchange occurred between cavers and trad climbers, the cavers asked the climbers what they really missed on the wall. In unison they replied, "a pizza". Unbeknownst to them the cavers radioed down to base camp for the next jugging team to bring a pizza. When that tandem pair showed up a few hours later and announced "pizza delivery" you probably could have knocked the climber dudes off the wall with a feather. And better yet, it was free! Missed the 30 min delivery deadline =) Caver/climber relations were strengthened that day!
TinY Manke is the real-deal - has skills. He rapped an injured caver off EC in 2013. YOSAR not required, that day... And in the past couple of years, he has successfully executed a tandem +1 (trandem) rappel.
Plans are currently underway for an El Cap trip 07/2016
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WBraun
climber
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The rope weighs ~180 lbs (+/- 5 lbs) not several hundred pounds
Yep, we have them in 1200 foot lenght in haul bags 4 total at 90 approximately pounds each.
So two 1200 foot ropes and haul bags approximately 180 pounds.
We used to have two 3000 footers but they were not manageable for what is generally needed for a typical wall rescue.
The pizza delivery you guys did was way cool and we wished at times on some of the more bad weather rescues we did could have had pizza too :-)
All in all long ropes require a different expertise from every day common climbing equipment handling .....
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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PMI static used to weigh approximately 8 lbs -100ft
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Crazy Bat
Sport climber
Birmingham, AL & Seweanee, TN
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YYZ, this is Myrna.
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YYZ
climber
Alabama
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YYZ, this is Myrna. Hey Myrna...Kuenn
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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I have no interest in top roping el cap but I'll belay. The rope just has to be long enough so I can either belay from my car or from the meadow. I'll bring my beloggles.
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melski
Trad climber
bytheriver
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D ue to extreme demand for climbing classic routes,Express Lanes will be needed,[ie,fixed lines ,and gri,gris],helmet foot holds only allowed during rush hour traffic,thank you for your patience,,
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