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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 23, 2015 - 09:34am PT
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I just started and deleted a thread with same initial content... but for me the topic is too important to hide in a joke title that most folks who want to avoid politics will just ignore. So labeling more correctly in the title here.
Original title: "Coffee Talk Conspiracy Theories Part 1: Climate Change"
OK, it's not what you think. I'm not trying to say climate change is a hoax. But, might it be getting more press for nefarious reasons? Might the seemingly ridiculous Republican naysayers actually be harnessed by a greater evil genius? And might the press be covering the strident support that affirms climate change is real, because it is a smoke screen for something uglier?
Consider this conspiracy theory: what if "the powers that be" need to keep the liberals busy with an important issue to keep attention away from the consolidation of power and shifting of laws that reinforce it? I don't see a groundswell of grassroots liberals consolidating to fight Citizen's United, or to get a constitutional amendment on campaign finance that protects our representative government from the influences of corporations and rich individuals whose interests do not match the large majority of our citizens.
Remember the scene from Manchurian Candidate when Angela Lansbury is saying something to the effect of "we don't want them questioning whether there are or are not communists, we want them questioning HOW MANY communists there are?" Framing topics, redirection, to achieve a goal.
Here we have the key defenders of society's values embroiled in debates on climate change, keystone pipelines, the resurging threat to abortion rights, gay rights... and too little attention is left for campaign finance reform and combatting the consolidation of power and securing of laws that will make it impossible to wrest it back.
Ultimately all those other battles will be easier to win when we secure a government that actually represents the interests of individuals. But in focusing on these battles we are ignoring the key battle that decides the war.
There.
Talk amongst yourselves.
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Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
the pitch above you
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Aug 23, 2015 - 09:42am PT
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Wanna voice? Quit bitching and start a corporation. The poor shall be neither seen nor heard.
Welcome to the new paradigm. We will all one day bow to the corporate overlords, or starve in the streets.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
Bishop,CA
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Aug 23, 2015 - 09:45am PT
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Keep the Liberals busy.
Who are the plastic people?
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Aug 23, 2015 - 09:51am PT
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100% of the problem has been brought to us by Conservative Republicans
The SCOTUS are in bed with the Koch brothers and the Tea Party.
it's all about the new Corporate America with huge profits going to the top, and the trickle down of sh#t for the middle class and everyone else that isn't rich enough to enjoy the rigged system.
Voting for Republicans or Libertarians is the Problem, someone voted for this because, these people are so conned that they have no idea what they voted for.
And don't tell me that both sides do it, The Democrats are the only ones trying to undo Citizens United and to enforce strict campaign reform, NOT The Republicans, they want More money, not lees.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 23, 2015 - 09:59am PT
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A really unfortunate decision of the Supreme Court.....not what democracy is about.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 23, 2015 - 10:25am PT
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I'm fine with political threads that focus attention on issues that don't get enough airtime, but will have a dominant affect on our lives and our children's lives.
Apathy is one way to handle it, certainly a way I have followed most of my life, but I've got too much life left and I care about the world I will leave for my children.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Aug 23, 2015 - 10:38am PT
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Enjoy being included in the Members Who Delete Posts thread list.
;)
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 23, 2015 - 10:52am PT
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Thank God we are still a Republic (kinda sorta) and the 1st Amend hasn't been completely PC'd... yet.
Some things just never change around here do they. Mean while, Millions of real poor people are walking, running and even crawling hundreds and thousands of miles to come to America so they can get a real job in "Corporate infested America". All to have a far better life than anything that they have in their native countries. When they get here, they do everything they can to stay and work their asses off for "Corporate infested America" in this totally fked up country of ours. Pretty stupid of all them millions and millions that have done so aint it....
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Aug 23, 2015 - 11:06am PT
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After the nation’s founding, corporations were granted charters by the state as they are today. Unlike today, however, corporations were only permitted to exist 20 or 30 years and could only deal in one commodity, could not hold stock in other companies, and their property holdings were limited to what they needed to accomplish their business goals. And perhaps the most important facet of all this is that most states in the early days of the nation had laws on the books that made any political contribution by corporations a criminal offense.
Jefferson said,
“If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them (around the banks), will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.”
Jefferson, one of the most prominent founding fathers, also said this in 1816,
“I hope that we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.”
John Adams also had an opinion.
“Banks have done more injury to the religion, morality, tranquility, prosperity, and even wealth of the nation than they can have done or ever will do good.”
Lincoln wrote,
“We may congratulate ourselves that this cruel war is nearing its end. It has cost a vast amount of treasure and blood … It has indeed been a trying hour for the Republic; but I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. As a result of war, corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands, and the Republic is destroyed. I feel at this moment more anxiety for the safety of my country than ever before, even in the midst of war. God grant that my suspicions may prove groundless.”
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Aug 23, 2015 - 11:15am PT
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Why do republicans hate the Government so much?
Because it's the only thing keeping their overloads from making us all slaves in over polluted world that they own.
They also hate democracy, that's why they have to rig elections to win, fight with despicable propaganda and have fake news media to sell the dupes these lies..
They invest billions, but in their minds it's money well spent, they have made trillions through this small investment.
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 23, 2015 - 11:17am PT
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Why do * hate the Government so much?
Gee Craig Fry, when's the last time you asked an Elder Native American that question?
PSSSSST Craig Fry, EVERY Native I know within 15 miles of my home, four in my little neighborhood here just below a major Paiute burial ground, owns lots and lots of guns. AND, not ONE of em trust the.... here it comes, Government. Most aamof "hate" the government and abide ONLY by the laws and rules of their Nation.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Aug 23, 2015 - 11:24am PT
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Why do republicans hate the Government so much?
why do democrats hate the work so much
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Aug 23, 2015 - 11:24am PT
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The Chief wrote
Some things just never change around here do they. Mean while, Millions of real poor people are walking, running and even crawling hundreds and thousands of miles to come to America so they can get a real job in "Corporate infested America". All to have a far better life than anything that they have in their native countries. When they get here, they do everything they can to stay and work their asses off for "Corporate infested America" in this totally fked up country of ours. Pretty stupid of all them millions and millions that have done so aint it....
Remember when we used to be a great country.
Oh well, I guess better than Mexico is good enough.
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 23, 2015 - 11:28am PT
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Remember when we used to be a great country.
When were we "Greater" than we are today... Gumby?
Please be specific.
Oh wait, maybe under Truman, JFK or LBJ in the 50's or 60's... or ... Do I need to post up all the constant rioting and burning of cities throughout our nation photos during those days.
I know, when Andrew Johnson took over after Lincoln and wanted to ensure all the Freed Slaves, 2nd and 3rd generation Chinese-Americans and Native's were kept under strict control and were disallowed any previ's of the a normal US citizen, including the 1st, 2nd and 15th Amends.
Hey Gumby, you ever heard of the "Red Legs", who they worked for and what they did back in later part of 1860's after the their tenure in the Civil War under the orders of President Andrew Johnson (D).
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Aug 23, 2015 - 11:45am PT
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We were greater when we didn't fight illegitimate wars for oil.
We were greater when we welcomed those millions that wanted to join us rather than try to criminalize them.
We were greater when we didn't require the middle class to work multiple jobs to support a family.
We were greater when someone like the Donald would be laughed out of town on the crazy train.
We were greater when education was affordable.
We were greater when we didn't have the highest incarceration rate of any major country (and 2nd highest of ANY country).
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 23, 2015 - 11:47am PT
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We were greater when we didn't fight illegitimate wars for oil.
We were greater when we welcomed those millions that wanted to join us rather than try to criminalize them.
We were greater when we didn't require the middle class to work multiple jobs to support a family.
We were greater when someone like the Donald would be laughed out of town on the crazy train.
We were greater when education was affordable.
We were greater when we didn't have the highest incarceration rate of any major country (and 2nd highest of ANY country).
Got some dates/time frames for all these supposed wonderful days above...
We were greater when someone like the Donald would be laughed out of town on the crazy train.
Ever heard of this dude Gumby (The FIRST true Democratic President btw)? What he did to any NON-CITIZEN's (including ALL Natives) makes what Donald talks about look like Capt Kangaroo compared to the leader of ISIS:
And allow me to post some more facts. Under Andrew Johnson, a Democrat btw, these dudes began. All were, oh shet, Democrats.
The Ku Klux Klan (KKK), or simply "the Klan", is the name of three distinct past and present movements in the United States, which have advocated extremist reactionary currents such as white supremacy, white nationalism, and anti-immigration, historically expressed through terrorism.[6] The first organization sought to overthrow the Republican state governments in the South during the Reconstruction Era, especially by violence against African American leaders. It ended about 1871. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan
The reason it ended? This dude:
We were greater when education was affordable.
My Pop (BTW he died at 86 four years ago) finished paying off his College "Student" Loan from 1952-1957 in 1979.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Aug 23, 2015 - 12:14pm PT
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Good political thread Scott. Thanks for the adjustment.
It occurred to me today that a huge majority of the population is being manipulated by PR & Propoganda.
It becomes vital that everyone become educated on the exact rules, laws, axioms, etc of marketing, PR, and propaganda in order to live in a sane world and protect ourselves from manipulation.
Some tips to protect yourself an others:
1. If it is alarming or sets you off: Where is the message coming from.
2. Who said it: examine them closely.
3. Why are they saying it? Who will benefit?
4. If it wont go away, it contains a lie. Spot the lie.
5. Point out the lie, the money trail, who is really saying it, why they are saying it. If you are correct, it goes away.
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 23, 2015 - 12:19pm PT
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Will someone here, including you Savage, please post when there was an election in this country where any of which is being posted above, NEVER prevailed. It's gonna be interesting to see the facts of history.
Good points btw Savage.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Aug 23, 2015 - 12:24pm PT
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Global warming is a geologic fact. (Climbers can see this) Obvious Ice age cycles.
Weather has cycles ( It will probably get colder/wetter again before it gets warmer)
Humans probably accelerated warming. It's probably too late.
Carbon tax is psycho because it makes pollution okay.
To survive as a species we must learn to live without creating pollution. We must achieve a zero filth factor.
We must learn to live and expand while protecting and ensuring the survival of other species as well. Even mosquitos.
We must learn to survive despite climate change, both warming and cooling.
We need to live with responsibility, relentless positive hope, and a firm decision that we will win no matter what.
Glad to see back Chief, I like your input.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Aug 23, 2015 - 12:26pm PT
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Fat lot of good all that corporate money is doing the two prime corporatist candidates.
(Hildebeast and Jeb)
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 23, 2015 - 12:37pm PT
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Mark Force:
Ever heard of these two Grandfathers of Corporation dudes and the powerful influence they both had on the local, state and national Elections between the late 1850's till the day they died?
Keep trying folks........... Next.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Aug 23, 2015 - 12:40pm PT
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Hey "The Chief", ever hear of reality? Here and now.
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 23, 2015 - 12:42pm PT
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^^^^^^^^^^^ So are you going to state that this country's History is no longer part of the reality we all live today. That we must totally dismiss everything of the past in order to back up your claims to influence your agendas.
Gee... sounds like what a group of fanatics are currently doing in SW Asia.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Aug 23, 2015 - 12:47pm PT
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Sometimes it is good to just listen and forget who is saying it......
Spider Savage....GREAT points, and I would add the internet makes this misinformation problem worse. Little to no fact checking....THAT needs to get fixed as there is too much information out there already.
In this discussion I feel the Chief IS here and now! History IS reality, and we are in one sense or another, repeating it. As a country we have always had to fight this problem. Now just happens to be another critical time in our history. Repeal the Citizen's United decision. ASAP.
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 23, 2015 - 12:53pm PT
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Chief, Yep. Their activities led to the anti-trust laws in the US that were put in place to preserve competition and a free market.
Mark Force: What does your above post have anything to do with my point of their influence on the election process in this country during their days on earth. The same exact BS that you all are whining about is happening today.
BTW: Sell that line of bull Mark Force to Bill Gates and Microsoft. Now that's a whole other story.
As a country we have always had to fight this problem.
Precisely. All since the very first National eledtion. Fact check that and you'll see the insanity that occurred then.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Aug 23, 2015 - 12:57pm PT
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The Citizens United decision is an ugly mole on something with 4th stage metastatic malignant melanoma.
Thinking that by operating within the current accepted framework will accomplish anything is a waste of time and energy. It's designed to give the sheep an illusion of choice. Just look at the camps immediately split into red vs. blue on this thread.
The whole thing needs a reboot. Unfortunately few will have the stomach for that or the means to make a dent there. With so many accustomed to the way things are, the criminals will likely continue their plunder until they can't.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Aug 23, 2015 - 12:59pm PT
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Getting rid of Citizens United (see Newspeak from 1984, George Orwell) is a good place to start. I've put in my time writing to the people that are supposed to represent me and given some money toward that cause.
A step on the path.
Or, you can just bitch.
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 23, 2015 - 01:04pm PT
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Get rid of Unions Mark Force... same ole same ole. Shall we get into how much influence Union's have had on the election process in the country since their inception?
Amazing how all candidates have fought front and foremost to get the backing of the AFL/CIO since the mid 50's.
Dump both the AFL/CIO and CIT UNITED. They are one in the same just different party lines.
Also, ban both goons such as George Soros & the KOCH's and ANY entity that are attached to them. ANY!
It is an never ending cycle ON both sides of the aisle with so many different factions/entities that want to influence the outcome of the elections. That is the reality. Has been since the very first elections held in this country. Fact.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 23, 2015 - 01:15pm PT
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To survive as a species we must learn to live without creating pollution. We must achieve a zero filth factor.
To survive as a species we need to stop breeding like rats and that's the reality even if we had a zero filth factor.
Bernie is our best chance.
Bernie is a great guy with lots of the right ideas, but unfortunately wouldn't last a minute in his first political knife fight.
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 23, 2015 - 01:18pm PT
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Bernie is our best chance.
Otherwise, we are facing revolution. It will be not pretty.
Bernie gets elected there will be a revolution.
Good Post Healyje. +1
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Aug 23, 2015 - 02:15pm PT
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Case and point is, it does not matter who gets elected. International corporations are running the show now, not the President. Puppet on a string. Citizens United decision sold us down the road, sold our country, put a price tag on control. Control of us, control of our natural resources, and control of our military and everything else. We are at war not because we are being attacked, but because it is in a corporation's or "stock holder's" best interest for us to do so.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Aug 23, 2015 - 02:24pm PT
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Bernie is a great guy with lots of the right ideas, but unfortunately wouldn't last a minute in his first political knife fight.
+1
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 23, 2015 - 02:28pm PT
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STUDLY: Of course this did absolutely NOTHING along the lines of what you post above.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/congress-approves-president-obamas-international-trade-deal/
We are at war not because we are being attacked, but because it is in a corporation's or "stock holder's" best interest for us to do so.
Just as JFK was motivated to get us directly involved in SE Asia. And his predecessor remained, escalated and kept us there where ten times the amount of young American's were KIA'd and over 36 times more were cycled in to fight (over 80% of those were forced to via the draft) than both of the last two wars. But that does not count. They were Democrats.
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overwatch
climber
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Aug 23, 2015 - 03:11pm PT
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Roger that on all in one thread
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Aug 23, 2015 - 09:04pm PT
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Bernie IS a revolution but then so was President Obama.
Put Bernie in office next year and after 4 or 8 years he'll come out looking like a Bush.
A solid knowledge of history is very important to good decision making. I'd like to see candidate credentials in this area.
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 23, 2015 - 09:28pm PT
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If you're paying attention you'll notice that the issue of campaign finance reform gets as much play as....well, it's not being talked about at all. Heard Trump bring it up?
As a matter of fact just last week... And has soooooooooo many times the past 3 months.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
No cranks... I'm not planning on voting for him.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Aug 23, 2015 - 09:32pm PT
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Thanks, yes, but he's not addressing the issue. He's saying, "hey, elect me, I got lots of money. I don't need these people". I could poke holes in that theory all night, but, obviously, it doesn't change the system unless only billionaires willing to spend their own money run for president.
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 23, 2015 - 09:34pm PT
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What better way can he speak about it than by openly declining ANY outside "Corporate" funds. Zero. At the least, the dude is walking the talk. Unlike all the rest including Bernie AND Hillary.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 23, 2015 - 09:38pm PT
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Focus people... playing up Dem vs Republican is EXACTLY the cancer that creates a vulnerability that can now be more powerfully exploited than ever before. By creating more wedge issues and US vs THEM about parties, we are all vulnerable to the infighting that distracts us from the common enemy.
I am not trying to say we are better or worse now than before. Who cares. I am looking right here, right now, picking what I think is the one most messed up thing, that if we fix this we have a healthy path to deal with everything else. Set aside distractions.
I'm not going to try to convince anyone to change their mind about abortions or gun rights or stuff like that. People will believe what they want to believe based on the info at their disposal. But that information today is more polluted because of the legal environment that we still have an opportunity to fix.
All the other issues are important in their own right (I don't mean to undermine environmental causes, women's rights, gay rights, etc.) but they are being used as weapons against conscientious people by those who are not conscientious, and who just want to obtain their own personal benefits. First and foremost, we need to ensure the political system ACTUALLY REPRESENTS THE DESIRES OF OUR CITIZENRY. Right now our citizenry are being manipulated by inaccurate information, and that information can't be vetted or put in proper context because Citizen's United upholds the criminal mechanisms by which those in support of policies can hide themselves while still exerting undo influence through extreme financial contributions.
The challenge I am embracing is how to wake our society from a collective slumber and see what is happening. Forget the wedge issues people. They need to be addressed through rational discussion and in the end majority rule will guide our point policies.
But we will only be lucky enough to have majority rule determine our point policies if we cut out this cancer of Citizen's United and hidden money influencing our elections.
Does anyone here think that Citizens United is good for our country? I am open to hearing another perspective on this point issue. From what I perceive, this is NOT about one political party or another, but in fact requires opposing political parties to make the corruption work. At least until such time as power is sufficiently concentrated and the illusion of choice is not necessary. Or maybe the illusion will be maintained in perpetuity to quell rebellions. We will still be allowed choice as long as the issues don't affect the very rich and powerful.
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 23, 2015 - 09:43pm PT
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ACTUALLY REPRESENTS THE DESIRES OF OUR CITIZENRY.
Nut:
You ever lived in the South or Midwest? Apparently not. That is the heart of this nation and your above post would last less than two seconds to the majority of those Americans you claim "ACTUALLY REPRESENTS THE DESIRES OF OUR CITIZENRY" before you got boood off the stage.
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 23, 2015 - 09:45pm PT
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Crankster... Please post just ONE President in the history of this nation that has NOT done anything that you just posted. Just one.
just give orders. Not how government works
Hmmmm. Seems that is what the current POTUS is and has done the past 24 months. If not longer. The latest example being his Iran Deal. Veto, Mandate etc etc.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/obama-will-veto-any-bill-that-prevents-implementation-of-iran-deal/
Now, what was that about, "Democracy".
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 23, 2015 - 09:53pm PT
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Chief, I have no interest in fighting against you, but it is an eye opener to see how conflict can be created where I see none.
Let's boil this down to basics. Do you think it's important to know who has paid for and crafted messages that are presented to you via mail, radio, TV, Internet, and phone?
That's all I'm talking about. I'm not going to be separated in a wedge issue or geographic or socio-economic us vs. them because I am talking about what I want as a human being. I share that with you, with people from the midwest, and people around the world. I don't claim to know what government will best suit your needs. But I claim that we both want a government that listens to and represents what we want. Can you agree that we at least have that in common?
One more that might be a stretch- do we have in common a desire for a government that fights to limit known forms of manipulation, and strives for transparency as a fundamental foundation of a government that represents people?
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 23, 2015 - 10:55pm PT
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Let's boil this down to basics. Do you think it's important to know who has paid for and crafted messages that are presented to you via mail, radio, TV, Internet, and phone?
So you agree that George Soros should be one of the Big "Contributors" that needs to ceased, right, Nut?
One more that might be a stretch- do we have in common a desire for a government that fights to limit known forms of manipulation, and strives for transparency as a fundamental foundation of a government that represents people?
Not possible when you got Career politicians ON BOTH SIDES of the aisle that think they rule this land.
First step NUT, vote that Reps only get two terms ONLY just like the President. That is a good start.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 23, 2015 - 10:57pm PT
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The pre-existence of one undesirable thing is not sufficient reason to fix another undesirable thing. There are a million ways that our government can be corrupted, and as citizens each looking after our own and our collective interest (at least to the extent that collective interests yields personal benefits), we have a shared motive to fight it.
But Chief, you did make me consider something that would not have occurred to me on my own. Perhaps the present system in America truly is the expression of what most Americans really want. Focus on personal comfort without regard for the external impact, and the ability to not have to face that this is what we collectively really want. The "I want to eat chicken from a plastic wrapped container but I don't want to kill animals" dilemma that many people suffer from. We want the benefits of being extremely unsociable in a world theater (i.e. cheap gas and material goods that make our lives easier), but we want to hide in the illusion that we are not responsible for the consequences of these policies. Citizens United makes it possible for the candidates to get elected that feed the machine that, at least for now, have side benefits that suit these potential secret longings of a majority of America.
Maybe that's true, in which case the seed of knowledge about Citizen's United will find no fertile purchase. But maybe it's not! A person must be aware of an idea before they can consider it or act on it. This thread is me trying to spread the seed to see if there is fertile purchase.
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 23, 2015 - 11:03pm PT
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Citizens United makes it possible for the candidates to get elected that feed the machine....
NUT: What is the difference between Citizens United and the stuff below:
100% of the problem has been brought to us by Conservative Republicans The SCOTUS are in bed with the Koch brothers and the Tea Party.
it's all about the new Corporate America with huge profits going to the top, and the trickle down of sh#t for the middle class and everyone else that isn't rich enough to enjoy the rigged system.
Voting for Republicans or Libertarians is the Problem, someone voted for this because, these people are so conned that they have no idea what they voted for.
And don't tell me that both sides do it, The Democrats are the only ones trying to undo Citizens United and to enforce strict campaign reform, NOT The Republicans, they want More money, not lees.
You can change the verbiage around slightly and it reads off the Citizens United website. The exact same BS hate propaganda exists on BOTH sides.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 23, 2015 - 11:08pm PT
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Chief, I think Democrats can be a problem too. I don't think it is exclusively caused by Republicans. But I don't want to get mired in political parties. This is a non-partisan issue that transcends political parties.
On your other point:
So you agree that George Soros should be one of the Big "Contributors" that needs to ceased, right, Nut?
My attitude on this issue is blind to political affiliation, ideology (aside from the ideology related to government transparency and campaign finance), or individuals. I want transparency for the source of information that influences elections, blocks of corporations and partnerships and other non-human legal entities from making campaign contributions or sponsoring political messages, and limits on how much individuals can contribute to political causes.
Beyond that, I'm still groping in the dark for how to fix campaign finance laws. I know hidden money paying for political ads is a poison to our society. After you have transparency, you can enforce funding limits better. Probably still sneaky ways that must be continually rooted out. But even with funding limits- there is a question of public vs. private funding. And then if only public (i.e. government) funding to distribute information that represents a candidate's values and perspective and track record- who validates which candidates get this funding? How to prevent the corruption of that organization? Seems like public funding is a non-starter for these reasons. I don't have answers there, but without talking about it, we won't get any closer.
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 23, 2015 - 11:11pm PT
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My attitude on this issue is blind to political affiliation, ideology...My attitude on this issue is blind to ideology or individuals.
That is pretty much an oxymoron statement considering this thread is fundamentally about abolishing Citizens United.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 23, 2015 - 11:13pm PT
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Interesting thread. In a lot of ways. Not only the subject matter, but in the tone of the participants and the ability of Nut to facilitate and focus. Is this really happening? Wait for it.
The whole divisiveness thing seems to be quite effective in marginalizing coherent discussion of important issues that threaten our security and sustainability. Can we boil it down to some basic needs of all humans or do we go for survival of the fittest or most greedy?
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 23, 2015 - 11:14pm PT
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I did make an edit to include that exception... and I did that before I saw your reply with my quote. But your point is valid. The ideology of transparency and campaign finance reform are exceptions. When I was thinking of ideology, I was thinking more like "conservative" vs. "liberal" or pro/con stands on different point issues.
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 23, 2015 - 11:16pm PT
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The whole divisiveness thing seems to be quite effective in marginalizing coherent discussion of important issues
As it has been since the inception of this nation.... Western Civ and even further back in human history.
EDIT: Who determines what are the important issues Wayno?
The ideology of transparency and campaign finance reform are exceptions.
I agree with you there. BUT, that goes both ways on both sides of the political aisle. That means both parties need to play.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 23, 2015 - 11:20pm PT
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The ones that are struggling the hardest.(just an offhand guess)
Feck, I don't know. Am I supposed to?
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 23, 2015 - 11:23pm PT
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That is a pretty broad statement Wayno. Fact is, you grab ten different folks from different parts of this country, and you'll get ten different important issues that need being attended to asap.
Prime example. As you know Wayno, I just spent a week in Northern Idaho. Folks in them parts see things completely different than you over in Seattle and Nut down in So Cal. Their priorities are so off the chart it would boggle Craig Fry's brain right outta his skull. They want snow for Schweitzer, more Chinook during the run and more Grizzly/Wolf tags to be handed out. Other than that, most folks from them parts that I met and spoke to are set. Talk to them about this issue and they will get up and leave in less than 30 seconds.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 23, 2015 - 11:37pm PT
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I'm good at broad statements, sorry. I agree with your fact.
What I was getting at had more to do with this:
Western Civ and even further back in human history.
I had in mind a more global perspective relating to humanity in general and our current American political situations as only a backdrop to a problem bigger than any one of "us".
I think what I'm saying is that we might be able to break it down to a few basic principles that don't get compromised. You know, like life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. But even those three might not work like they used to. Liberty alone can be a slippery slope.
Edit- I dig what your saying chief, I don't want to live in Seattle. At one point in my life I did.I'm probable not a typical Seattlite. You'll find me in the Okanogan somewhere in the near future, living with cattle farmers and loggers and such. The fishing isn't as good as where your going in Idaho but it ain't bad. Jurrasic Park. Huge rainbws.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Aug 24, 2015 - 12:40am PT
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Got some dates/time frames for all these supposed wonderful days above... I'll try
We were greater when we didn't fight illegitimate wars for oil. That would be Bush 1. Yes Korea and Vietnam were also poor choices based supposedly on ideologies. Yes they were by democrats.
We were greater when we welcomed those millions that wanted to join us rather than try to criminalize them. About 12 years ago a crackdown began on those with jobs (at least here Cali-Nevada). We lost a lot of very hard workers/good people with familes where I work.
We were greater when we didn't require the middle class to work multiple jobs to support a family. This began with trickle down economics in my opinion but it is certainly up for debate. And yes I voted for Reagan.
We were greater when someone like the Donald would be laughed out of town on the crazy train. Self explanatory
We were greater when education was affordable. According to Gordon Wadsworth, author of The College Trap (2012), “…if the cost of college tuition was $10,000 in 1986, it would now cost the same student over $21,500 if education had increased as much as the average inflation rate but instead education is $59,800 or over 2 ½ times the inflation rate.”
Under Obama the funding for Pell Grants has been increased dramatically. But tuition has also gone up dramatically in recent years
We were greater when we didn't have the highest incarceration rate of any major country (and 2nd highest of ANY country). This started in 1972 after Nixon began the War on Drugs. The incarceration rate began to fall for the first time in over 35 years after Obama took office but is still way too high. Privatization of the prison system and the powerful associated lobby is still a huge problem.
Regarding the Klan and Democrats, that was forever ago and most scholars agree that the Republican Party of today is more akin to the Democratic Party of then. This can easily be seen by seeing which party always carries the deep south these days.
I can't find it now but someone mentioned how divided we are now. I almost included that in the list I made above. I have to place most of the blame for that on Fox News.
Everyone's doing it now on both sides (in fact I just did it by saying there's two sides) but that's where began and began to escalate.
In my list I did not include the disparity between the rich and poor. That's perhaps the largest crisis facing this country. I think this also started with trickle down economics.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Aug 24, 2015 - 04:58am PT
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Okay. So most people agree CU was a horrible ruling. It opened the floodgates for legal bribery.
What can we do about it?
Is anything being done about it?
I'd gladly give my time and energy to reversing this ruling. But I don't think anyone is actively pressing this issue in a meaningful way.
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 24, 2015 - 05:56am PT
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Vietnam were also poor choices based supposedly on ideologies
Nope.... Oil and other resources. Glad to see you know your real history.
http://www.luckinlove.com/oilinvietnam.htm
http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/Commentary/Power_Elite_9.htm
We were greater when someone like the Donald would be laughed out of town on the crazy train.
Andrew Jackson... Andrew Johnson... Ask the Natives and Mexicans how they feel about these two Presidents and the policies they campaigned on. Do not believe they would concur with you at all! And there were others, many many others but your bias certainly prevents you from accepting that.
According to Gordon Wadsworth, author of The College Trap (2012), “…if the cost of college tuition was $10,000 in 1986, it would now cost the same student over $21,500 if education had increased as much as the average inflation rate but instead education is $59,800 or over 2 ½ times the inflation rate.”Under Obama the funding for Pell Grants has been increased dramatically. But tuition has also gone up dramatically in recent years
Ah, hmmmm, that is all dependent on what "school" and field of learning you chose to go to. Come to think of it, my Pop was paying a student loan of of 22K. That was back in the mid 50's. Bias at best but nice try. Seriously.
This started in 1972 after Nixon began the War on Drugs. The incarceration rate began to fall for the first time in over 35 years after Obama took office but is still way too high. Privatization of the prison system and the powerful associated lobby is still a huge problem.
Of course Bill Clinton had absolutely NOTHING to do with the fact that incarcerations grew 6-800% during and since his mandate to get tough on crime and building all them prisons..
http://www.salon.com/2015/04/13/the_clinton_dynastys_horrific_legacy_how_tough_on_crime_politics_built_the_worlds_largest_prison/
We were greater when we didn't require the middle class to work multiple jobs to support a family.
Really? I could swear to this day that my Pop came home every day back in the 60's pissed off about busting his ass and paying out so much of his hard earned money to support the war and all them other BS things. "I can never get ahead at this rate!" stated over and over at the evenings dinner table from 1964ish through 1975 when I left for the Navy. My Pop had a Masters in Engineering and was the Senior structural engineer for the biggest architectural firm in LA for over 15 yeas btw.
Bottom line there Gumby, you are supposing all this fairy tale utopia on what you believe were good times. When in fact, reality of the times sings a way different tune, depending on where you lived and what race etc you were. Oh yeah, race and nationality, appears you forgot ALL about those not so important items...
Imagine Obama running for President from 1966 on back.... can you see it??? Look really really hard.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Aug 24, 2015 - 06:20am PT
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Okay. So most people agree CU was a horrible ruling. It opened the floodgates for legal bribery.
What can we do about it?
Is anything being done about it?
I'd gladly give my time and energy to reversing this ruling. But I don't think anyone is actively pressing this issue in a meaningful way.
Is anything being done? Well, yes. But is it being done in a meaningful way? I don't know...I have my doubts. End Citizens United (Democrats fighting big money) now seems somewhat devisive to me athough I originally donated to them and signed a petition. This is one time when we, the people, need to put aside our differences and stand together and say OK THIS needs to go. Is this the only way to rally people now? With statements demonizing the other side and ignoring the same on their own side? I'm tired of both party's to be honest and they are both part of the problem.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Aug 24, 2015 - 06:24am PT
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Okay. So most people agree CU was a horrible ruling. It opened the floodgates for legal bribery.
What can we do about it?
Is anything being done about it?
I'd gladly give my time and energy to reversing this ruling. But I don't think anyone is actively pressing this issue in a meaningful way.
And in the end, even if CU was repealed, it would really just create a slightly harder accounting problem for the puppet masters to fund their puppets. Nothing more, nothing less. The bribery and criminal political puppets were the same before CU. The machinery simply had some tarps on it before...
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 24, 2015 - 06:29am PT
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One last thing for Gumby and his Utopia claim...
Here's some real history for ya:
The Klan's organized terrorism began most notably on March 31, 1868, when Republican organizer George Ashburn was murdered in Columbus, Georgia.
Most Ku Klux Klan action was designed to intimidate black voters and white supporters of the Republican Party. Founded in Tennessee in 1866, the Klan was particularly active in Georgia from 1868 to the early 1870s.
Ku Klux Klan Cartoon
Over the following months Klan-inspired violence spread throughout Georgia's Black Belt and into the northwestern corner of the state. Most Klan action was designed to intimidate black voters and white supporters of the Republican Party. Klansmen might parade on horseback at night dressed in outlandish costumes, or they might threaten specific Republican leaders with violence. Increasingly during 1868 these actions became violent, ranging from whippings of black women perceived as insolent to the assassination of Republican leaders. It is impossible to untangle local vigilante violence from political terrorism by the organized Klan, but it is clear that attacks on blacks became common during 1868. Freedmen's Bureau agents reported 336 cases of murder or assault with intent to kill on freedmen across the state from January 1 through November 15 of 1868.
The political terrorism was effective. While Republican gubernatorial candidate Rufus B. Bullock carried the state in April 1868 elections, by November Democratic presidential candidate Horatio Seymour was in the lead. In some counties the contrast was incredible. In John Reed's Oglethorpe County, 1,144 people had voted Republican in April, while only 116 dared to vote Republican in November when Reed's armed Klansmen surrounded the polls. In Columbia County armed Klansmen not only intimidated voters but even cowed federal soldiers sent to guard the polling place. Not surprisingly, while 1,222 votes had been cast in Columbia County for Republican governor Rufus Bullock in April, only one vote was cast for Republican presidential candidate Ulysses Grant in November 1868. Similar political terrorism and control of the polling places help account for Georgia's quick "redemption" and return to conservative white Democratic control by late 1871.
Klanlike violence was also used to control freedpeople's social behavior, but with less success. Black churches and schools were burned, teachers were attacked, and freedpeople who refused to show proper deference were beaten and killed. But, black Georgians fought their attackers, rebuilt their churches and schools, and shot back during attacks on their communities. While these attacks surely terrorized some freedpeople, they failed to destroy the cultural and social independence blacks had gained with emancipation.
Yup. them were good days. I could see you and your current views living in Georgia at the time stated above. You'd be tip towing through the tulips for sure.... Don't facts suck Gumby?
As far as this CU hate goes, the same folks here were screaming big time foul a couple years ago when the TPers were a total threat to their way of life in America as they know it. Sure looks like them TPers took over huh?
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FRUMY
Trad climber
Bishop,CA
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Aug 24, 2015 - 06:56am PT
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Oil & other minerals
Vietnam had no known oil at the time of the war.
What minerals?
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Aug 24, 2015 - 07:23am PT
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And in the end, even if CU was repealed, it would really just create a slightly harder accounting problem for the puppet masters to fund their puppets. Nothing more, nothing less. The bribery and criminal political puppets were the same before CU. The machinery simply had some tarps on it before...
That's a copout. The total funds spent on elections have skyrocketed since CU. Most of the increases have come from relatively few sources. Big dollar donors. Previously, we had nothing like this situation. It's a game changer.
Creating reasonable campaign finance rules isn't complicated. Limit contributions to $2000 per person (and corporation). Have strict criteria for corporate donors, i.e. donation limited only to the parent company. No BS subsidies.
The main hurdle is political will. A major grassroots effort seems like the best way to create enough political will to tackle this issue.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Aug 24, 2015 - 07:28am PT
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The Democrat party was founded on the protection of slavery and stealing the property of others to buy votes. (appropriating Cherokee land)
The civil war didn't stop them either. "progressive" Woodrow Wilson re- segregated the civil service and the army by executive order.
"Sheets" Byrd an official in the KKK was their leader in the senate all the way to his demise.
I could compile a list too long to read.
Started out buying votes with free cheese.
And they are still at it.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Being In Sierra Happy Of Place
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Aug 24, 2015 - 07:30am PT
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 24, 2015 - 07:31am PT
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^^^^^^ You're full of shet TGT! HA HA!
FREE CHEESE, the original CU. Love it....
I got twenty says that if Byrd was alive today and the ONLY "shoe in" Dem candidate running next year (knock knock Hilldabeast), Craig Fry, Bob D'A etal, would be screaming their full support for his ass and would vote for him. They'd be singing their typical song that unless you vote for the Dem front runner Byrd, you're a heathen and an enemy of the true American way. Even if Byrd agreed with CU behind the curtain.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 24, 2015 - 07:47am PT
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Revoking corporate person-hood is NOT the way to remove the excessive influence of the donor class in elections. Corporate person-hood has too many legal ramifications that would make a mess of our system to revoke.
Also it would not stop billionaires, unions or the candidates themselves from donating.
It's the donating itself from any source that must be limited. I would like to see an amendment suggesting that no one may donate more than 160 hours and or more than 5% of poverty level income amount.
Writing an amendment like this without unintended consequences or loopholes is really difficult. How does one deal with news outlet spending, spending on promotion of "issues" closely tied to a candidate? The vastly wealthy and powerful will find ways around our intent. They will spend billions to stop any amendment from being successful.
It is a real can of worms for sure. This would reduce freedom of speech..yet even the Supreme court recognized that restrictions on freedom of speech could be necessary if the election process were in jeopardy. However they did not believe it was.
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 24, 2015 - 07:52am PT
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I add this to your post SKI...
"Byrd served as a U.S. Representative from 1953 until 1959 and as a U.S. Senator from 1959 to 2010. Byrd, however, still holds the record as the longest-serving member of Congress to serve in both houses."
Precisely why this country is in the state that it is. CU is NOT the issue nor is Corporate donations. Limit terms of Reps. No more career dickcheeses that are bought and paid for making decisions for us. Regardless their party.
Do that and you'll have true campaign reform.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 24, 2015 - 08:50am PT
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It seems simple to my simple mind that IF campaign finance change was truly desired all
those clowns in DC would need to do was say that only persons, corporate or breathing,
may donate X amount, say $100. Fat chance, huh?
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Aug 24, 2015 - 09:47am PT
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Nope.... Oil and other resources. Glad to see you know your real history. I did say supposedly exactly because of the reasons you mentioned. Personally I think the supposed ideological reasons were equally stupid reasons to fight a war.
Andrew Jackson... Andrew Johnson... Ask the Natives and Mexicans how they feel about these two Presidents and the policies they campaigned on. Do not believe they would concur with you at all! And there were others, many many others but your bias certainly prevents you from accepting that. You keep mentioning Andrew Johnson as proof that things haven't changed much in regards to Trump. First he was never elected, and second he pretty much was laughed out of town.
Ah, hmmmm, that is all dependent on what "school" and field of learning you chose to go to. Come to think of it, my Pop was paying a student loan of of 22K. That was back in the mid 50's. Bias at best but nice try. Seriously. If you are trying to say that the price of college hasn't outpaced inflation I don't know what to tell you other than you are just plain wrong.
http://trends.collegeboard.org/college-pricing/figures-tables/tuition-fees-room-board-time-1974-75-2014-15-selected-years
Of course Bill Clinton had absolutely NOTHING to do with the fact that incarcerations grew 6-800% during and since his mandate to get tough on crime and building all them prisons.. First off I'm guessing the 800% is a typo cause that just plain didn't happen
Yes. Clinton did oversee a huge increase in prison populations. I never said he didn't. He even admits he went too far. You asked when these things started.
Really? I could swear to this day that my Pop came home every day back in the 60's pissed off about busting his ass and paying out so much of his hard earned money to support the war and all them other BS things. That's a cute anecdote. It's also kind of like saying 'Today was cold so climate change doesn't exist'.
Did your father work two jobs? Did your mother work too?
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Aug 24, 2015 - 09:55am PT
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Get rid of Unions Mark Force... same ole same ole. Shall we get into how much influence Union's have had on the election process in the country since their inception? Are you saying get rid of unions altogether, or get them out of elections? I can get behind getting them out of elections, but not getting rid of them altogether.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Aug 24, 2015 - 10:08am PT
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Looks like we took that bait...
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 24, 2015 - 10:09am PT
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Did your father work two jobs? Did your mother work too?
He worked 12 hour days and often brought work home. Yes my Mom worked full-time as well. And yes, we were considered Middle Class. I grew up in North Hollywood, CA
If you are trying to say that the price of college hasn't outpaced inflation
Do the math on 22k in the mid 50's. Another example, my brother went to CPSLO from 70-74 ($78K). He made his final student loan payment in 99. Do the math on 78K during that time frame.
First off I'm guessing the 800% is a typo cause that just plain didn't happen Yes. Clinton did oversee a huge increase in prison populations.
Ok, typo. 200-300+% from 1989 to 1999. Ten years. Mostly from 1992-1999. Seven years!
"In 1999 49% of prison inmates nationally are African American, compared to their 13% in 1990-92. This increase was all under the Clinton era."
http://www.sentencingproject.org/doc/publications/rd_crisisoftheyoung.pdf
Get rid of Unions Mark Force
Disallow them from contributing to a candidates campaign.
Now, with all that said, you have yet to pin point any specific time frame in our history where things were "generally" better for "Everyone" than they are today, Gumby. Please do.
Looks like we took that bait...
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Aug 24, 2015 - 10:43am PT
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I'd gladly give my time and energy to reversing this ruling. A major grassroots effort seems like the best way to create enough political will to tackle this issue.
Bravo Sketch! transcending troll punditry. I look forward to your grassroots campaign!
Chief! more casting,less trolling...show us the lunkers!
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 24, 2015 - 10:55am PT
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If you want to start doing something about Citizen's United, read the amendment and if you agree, sign this petition:
http://movetoamend.org/wethepeopleamendment
They have collected 393,508 signatures as of when I signed. There are 535 resolutions that are pending or passed in cities, counties, and states across America. Check out what movements are already under way:
http://movetoamend.org/resolutions-map
If you want to get more actively involved beyond signing the petition, they have more pointers on the website and ways to volunteer. Here is a checklist of items in which you can express interest for volunteering:
I am interested in starting a MTA group in my community.
I am interesting in collecting petitions.
I am interested in fundraising.
I am interested in direct action.
I am interested in research.
I am interested in legal support.
I am interested in administration.
I am interested in actions, rallies and events.
I am interested in communications and/or media.
I am interested in outreach.
I am interested in tech support.
I am interested in birddogging candidates.
I am interested in lobbying elected officials.
I am interested in hosting a Barnstorming tour stop in my community.
I am interested in hosting a houseparty.
This screenshot is as of today August 24, 2015:
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HermitMaster
Social climber
my abode
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Aug 24, 2015 - 11:05am PT
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This whole thread is a tempest in a tea pot...
Last time I checked the New York Times is a corporation. More importantly: They use their money to influence voters. It's what they do.
Only the loony left wants to stick to it's roots and segregate corporations into "Which ones are People" and which ones aren't....
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 24, 2015 - 11:34am PT
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^
Good point about media companies. That is a whole separate discussion, but it necessarily gets pulled in when the issue of corporate rights and free speech is broached. I don't have immediate answers there, but I treat the solution to any problem like debugging software:
1. Find the fix initial 'bugs' in your program
2. Run again and see where it crashes or gives garbage output, and fix the next set of bugs uncovered after you fix the first set.
3. Iterate until you work out the kinks.
The Move to Amend organization does appear to be an assembly of folks with various "liberal" leanings, and they do bundle in the issue of corporate personhood. I would like to see a focused issue to just kill off Citizens United as a more achievable and real step that can get broad consensus. But they argue that it's just a small piece of the puzzle, and without addressing the corporate personhood issue, repealing Citizens United on it's own doesn't go very far.
It seems pretty rational and reasonable to me to segregate the entities of individual human beings versus legal fictions that are organizations of one or more human entities or other legal fictions, which collectively have agreed to exist to achieve some purpose. The main purpose of most corporations is to make money. I find nothing inherently wrong with an organization that exists to make money. It has motivated a lot of good things that makes our world a better place. But it should not be accorded the same rights in our world as human beings that have but one life to live, and must live with the consequences of our decisions.
Corporations can be restructured, killed off and reemerge in a different form with the same participants, and in a sense, are like "video game lives" with do-overs and no lasting consequences for destructive behaviors or actions. Whatever other functions they perform or benefits they incur for shareholders, they are shields for very rich shareholders.
That protection function of a corporation is not consistent with "natural laws" where each of our actions have consequences. Corporations enable the flourishing of a consequence-free living, and a different standard and set of rights should be applied to corporations versus humans.
I am not at all a legal theorist or remotely educated on the subject, and I'm sure there are many devlish arguments that indicate why corporations should be treated like people. But for a moment look at the big picture and apply common sense, and instead of using the problems that arise when stripping corporations of human rights as a reason to not bother with limiting corporate rights... instead, think of how corporate rights could be reformed in a way that first meet the needs of individuals, and to the extent possible within this framework, the desires of corporations for the purpose of commerce and finance and other reasons that corporations might exist.
It would certainly be a less business-friendly environment and it would discourage investment. In the bigger picture, I'm ok with this. I think economic growth is not as important as a more honestly representative government. But given the financial house of cards in our economy, when companies cease to grow, they die because they rely on continual expansion to pay off loans and meet investor expectations. So there is a massive ripple-through effect of limiting corporate rights, and for a lot of people that affect on the whole looks quite bad and ugly.
But in the end, I think that is the right way to go. It's like resetting a bone after an accident- it probably hurts a hell of a lot more than leaving it alone, but the end result is better than if it is just left to continue developing as it is.
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 24, 2015 - 11:39am PT
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Chief! more casting,less trolling...show us the lunkers!
Wade.... can't. The smoke is atrocious this past week and is worse today than ever. That is why I am here, casting and then.... Stripping at various impulses.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Aug 24, 2015 - 12:50pm PT
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Do the math on 22k in the mid 50's. Another example, my brother went to CPSLO from 70-74 ($78K). There's no way to do that math. 22k for what degree (I know you said he had a masters in engineering but what field)? Did the 22k include all 6 years? Or are you just talking about Student Loans? From what school?
None of it changes the fact that colleges are more expensive now.
Now, with all that said, you have yet to pin point any specific time frame in our history where things were "generally" better for "Everyone" than they are today, Gumby. Please do. I never said I would pinpoint a time in history when things were generally better for everyone. I was responding to you saying we're awesome because people from Mexico want to move here. I think we should raise the bar higher than that. So i responded again to your comment and pointed out many things we need to do better at. I never said anything about whether it was the right or left that caused it. Clearly it was both.
I do think things have improved socially.
Gay Marriage
Legalization of Marijuana
Black President
Affordable Health Care for more
Since this apparently has to be about right vs left, these are things that were almost universally opposed by the right at the time.
But if you really want to get into why we are not as great as we once were, let's talk about the wealth gap.
Citizens United seems to be about maintaining and even widening this gap.
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 24, 2015 - 01:06pm PT
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I never said I would pinpoint a time in history when things were generally better for everyone. I was responding to you saying we're awesome because people from Mexico want to move here. I think we should raise the bar higher than that. So i responded again to your comment and pointed out many things we need to do better at. I never said anything about whether it was the right or left that caused it. Clearly it was both.
I do think things have improved socially.
Gay Marriage
Legalization of Marijuana
Black President
Affordable Health Care for more
Where did I ever specify "Mexico". Love the presumption on your part Gumby.
Thanks for solidifying why immigrants today are running, walking and crawling thousands of miles to come to America as I stated in my original post.
And it has nothing to do with right or left. Has to do with being grateful for having the privilege of being and living here in America. The best nation on earth to live, today. The best it has been throughout it's history.
Oh, here is my original post btw:
Thank God we are still a Republic (kinda sorta) and the 1st Amend hasn't been completely PC'd... yet.
Some things just never change around here do they. Mean while, Millions of real poor people are walking, running and even crawling hundreds and thousands of miles to come to America so they can get a real job in "Corporate infested America". All to have a far better life than anything that they have in their native countries. When they get here, they do everything they can to stay and work their asses off for "Corporate infested America" in this totally fked up country of ours. Pretty stupid of all them millions and millions that have done so aint it....
Oh, Pop went and got his degrees in Civil/Structural Engineering than he got his masters in Mathematics of some sort.
EDIT:
NUT, CU is just another phantom you all want to throw out there to dispel any competition from other political parties. Same fear mongering you all did some four or so years ago when the "Tea Party" was coming to bear in this vast ocean of American politics and ideologies.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Aug 24, 2015 - 01:13pm PT
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It was the 'crawling' that led me to believe you meant Mexico. Did you mean Canada?
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Aug 24, 2015 - 01:15pm PT
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NutAgain, Please keep on keeping on. You are being useful.
Chief, My wife who is a wonderful friend and companion, keeps me humble, which is a good thing (humility being a good thing). She reminds me regularly that humans have two ears and one mouth because we function best when we listen twice as much as we talk.
Getting rid of Citizens United is no cure all. It does help pump some sh#t out of the shithole, though, and that's a start.
The Boy and the Starfish
"A man was walking along a deserted beach at sunset. As he walked he could see a young boy in the distance, as he drew nearer he noticed that the boy kept bending down, picking something up and throwing it into the water. Time and again he kept hurling things into the ocean.
As the man approached even closer, he was able to see that the boy was picking up starfish that had been washed up on the beach and, one at a time he was throwing them back into the water.
The man asked the boy what he was doing, the boy replied,"I am throwing these washed up starfish back into the ocean, or else they will die through lack of oxygen. "But", said the man, "You can't possibly save them all, there are thousands on this beach, and this must be happening on hundreds of beaches along the coast. You can't possibly make a difference."
The boy looked down, frowning for a moment; then bent down to pick up another starfish, smiling as he threw it back into the sea. He replied,
"I made a huge difference to that one!"
~Author Unknown~
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 24, 2015 - 01:15pm PT
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And Mark Force, getting rid of George Soros and all his policies would do the same. Concur Mark?
Nope... I meant China, India, Pakistan etc. That is what they do when they finally arrive here after being stuck in the bowels of a ship for weeks at a time compacted with upwards of a 100 others waiting to finally get here.
And, why don't you do a wealth gap analysis of all the different nations that all these immigrants flock from annually.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Aug 24, 2015 - 01:18pm PT
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The best nation on earth to live, today. The best it has been throughout it's history. That is your opinion and you're entitled to it. I disagree on both counts.
Things may be better than they have before, but that's more of a worldwide thing than just here in the US.
I know this has been posted before, including by me
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 24, 2015 - 01:24pm PT
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Ok then Gumby, what country supercedes the US as "The Best Country in the world"?
Edit: No immediate answer..... figures.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Aug 24, 2015 - 01:29pm PT
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Nope... I meant China, India, Pakistan etc. That is what they do when they finally arrive here after being stuck in the bowels of a ship for weeks at a time compacted with upwards of a 100 others waiting to finally get here. I don't believe that's what you meant. When you said walking and crawling that implies walking over the border and crawling under/over a fence. And now you're denying it and IMO have lost some of the respect you earned with your previous valid arguments (whether or not I agree with them).
Even so, is it too much to ask that we be raise the bar higher than being better than those countries as well?
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 24, 2015 - 01:30pm PT
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Just as I thought Gumby.
I don't believe that's what you meant. When you said walking and crawling that implies walking over the border and crawling under/over a fence.
NOPE! Not atal. But you go ahead and keep them presumptions going.
So, which country is the best in the world today, Gumby.
Edit: 40% or greater of the immigrants coming in through the southern border aren't even from Mexico. Factcheck that one Gumby.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Aug 24, 2015 - 01:31pm PT
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Why is an immediate answer required. Do I have to sit here and eagerly await your next response. I'm getting ready to head out with the dogs and I won't be near the computer probably until I get home from work tonight. i hope you can wait.
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 24, 2015 - 01:38pm PT
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Why is an immediate answer required.... I'm getting ready to head out with the dogs and I won't be near the computer probably until I get home from work tonight.
Surely you being such a knowledgeable world traveled guy you would have an immediate answer.
Nice excuse Gumby. Not holding my breath Cus you won't ever post one... tonight, tomorrow or ever. BUT, I hope you do surprise me.
I presented this exact same question to a handful of folks here after that video you posted was done so originally. Not one replied, ever.
Mark Force:
Why save the starfish in the first place? Seems a typical metaphor of humans to change the laws of nature/universe that put that and all them other Starfish on the beach in the first place, all in order to appease their self gratifying ego's. Nothing more.
Edit:
Getting rid of Citizens United is no cure all. It does help pump some sh#t out of the shithole, though, and that's a start
So Mark Force, please do tell me what is the difference between CU and the "Occupy Wallstreet/99%ers" http://occupywallst.org/about/ (which is in fact heavily funded by George Soros in one way or another) movement.
I personally don't give a ratsass about either. BUT, I do know that as far as destruction of personal and taxpayers property and total lawlessness (they are self admitted anarchists) goes, the OWS99%ers movement sure has had it's share of doing just that. I can not find any such behavior from the CU folks.
Can you help me out on that.
Also Mark Force, do you approve of http://occupywallst.org/about/ and their stance and behaviors?
Nut, Gumby any of you out there that want CU disbanded etc... can you answer that question?
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dirtbag
climber
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Aug 24, 2015 - 06:49pm PT
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Just a reminder guys: discussing anything with Chief Running Mouth is a complete waste of time. He knows everything, posts everything, and does not know when to shut he fook up and listen.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Aug 24, 2015 - 06:51pm PT
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Is this the same guy who had an epiphany in a trout stream? I'm confused, seriously.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Aug 24, 2015 - 06:58pm PT
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Unions are just labor corporations.
When the "progressives" start proposing the same restrictions on them, there might be something to discuss.
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 24, 2015 - 07:00pm PT
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That'll NEVER happen TGT. If they ever did, they'd implode. Be like pulling the plug outta Jaba the Huts ass.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 24, 2015 - 07:30pm PT
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I remain focused on overturning Citizen's United as a first step.
I have not heard of one person who thinks it is a good thing to let corporations and misleadingly named legal entities shield the identity of contributors who spend lots of money attempting to persuade people to vote in discord with their own best interests.
If Democrats embrace this issue as an excuse to blame Republicans, I see that as a major short-sighted failure, a missed opportunity of casting this properly as a non-partisan issue where we all stand to lose a lot. Now we have folks like Chief who might agree in principle with the isolated issue of repealing Citizens United, and yet a coalition can't form because OMG I can't join something that would be joined by a Green Party member or a Democratic Party member.
The damn labels and identity and egos have so many of us tied up in knots that we can't even act in our own self interest for fear of "losing face."
THAT is part of the evil genius of the rich and powerful, the pitting of Democrat against Republican, to weaken both and destroy any possibility of collaborative effort based on self-interest. So very Machiavellian.
Chief, what would it take for you and me to forge a shared vision of how our government can be more transparent and representative of what citizens want?
I heard you about term limits. It does seem like a great idea. My only question about that is how much experience and wisdom is required for wheeling and dealing to break gridlock and sort out some series of tit-for-tat to get everyone to sign a budget? It's one thing to treat each issue as an independent vote, but for budgets at least, there is picking and choosing and prioritizing, so it's not just about voting for one's conscience on point issues. I suspect for those types of things, the years of experience make a difference in "making the sausage" to get something signed. But in any case, I do support term limits.
I also heard you about making a physical presence with a big crowd of people making a peaceful stand in Washington, D.C.
What else do you got?
This is good stuff.
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 24, 2015 - 07:39pm PT
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Well NUT, you did not answer my question...
What is the difference between CU and this org,
http://occupywallst.org/about/
AND, do you condone what http://occupywallst.org/about/ has and is doing?
THAT is part of the evil genius of the rich and powerful, the pitting of Democrat against Republican
What initiated them to go at one another from 1860-1865?
Or all the other thousands of times in the past history of this nation while we are at it. Weren't no corps back then to do so.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Aug 24, 2015 - 07:51pm PT
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NutAgain!:
"Does anyone here think that Citizens United is good for our country? "
Well, John E has been a longtime defender of the SCOTUS decision. I don't know that he thinks CU was good for American politics (or the country as a whole), but he is a strong defender of the SCOTUS's decision, in principle. His defense has always struck me as admirably idealistic, but completely separated from the realities of money & politics in the US, and the erosion of the principles of Democracy.
John has defended it repeatedly in Dr F's defunct thread(s). But the essence of your question hasn't really been addressed by any ST Republican (to my memory). TGT has chimed in here a few times, but nothing he has posted gives any sense of what he actually thinks about the impact of CU. And aside from those longstanding ST Republicans, I can't think of any ST Republican that thinks CU is good for our country (or political process).
(I'm surprised that John hasn't stepped into this thread thusfar...)
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Aug 24, 2015 - 08:05pm PT
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One citizen, one vote. No one citizen should have undue influence on an election except by the force of their ideas; there should be full transparency to the process. Limited contributions to level the field. Those are principles worth defending regardless of your particular politics.
How to get that done? Don't know. Gotta start somewhere and Citizens United is a good place to start.
Next would designing the system so that be being a politician is something that you can't make money (other than an basic living) doing. Being a chief in First Nation tribes meant you had to give all your possessions away to the tribe.
Just food for thought.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Aug 24, 2015 - 08:10pm PT
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Is the first amendment a good thing or not?
It's unambiguous.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 24, 2015 - 08:19pm PT
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Next would designing the system so that be being a politician is something that you can't make money (other than an basic living) doing. Being a chief in First Nation tribes meant you had to give all your possessions away to the tribe.
That also included giving up his first born son to fight and die as a warrior. AND his first born daughter to the strongest veteran warrior in the tribe, regardless who he was.
You willing to do that with your kids, Mark Force.
You didn't answer my question regarding the Occupy Wallstreet Org either Mark Force.
Why is that.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Aug 24, 2015 - 08:44pm PT
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I do believe that our society would be improved if the requirement for being a full citizen with voting rights would be two years of public service; not necessarily military. And, no, I didn't serve in the military (one of my few regrets).
But, your stuff about the associated practices of First Nation societal standards is really playing games. If you are a Christian and believe the Old Testament is the literal word of God are you willing to do everything that the Old Testament tells you you're supposed to do?
But, so much of this stuff you throw up, Chief, is really more about being a PITA and "The Chief." Right? Just admit it; you really will feel better.
And, as far as baiting me as a liberal Democrat you've got it wrong (stupid is on both sides of the aisle, politically). My stances come more from the libertarian side of the equation. End of my contribution, however you want to measure it.
Occupy WallStreet was a show. They were exercising their right to protest. A lot were there more for the scene than the principle. A lot of that group is the political end that expects someone else to pay for their vacation. It did, however, accomplish a goal of creating general awareness of income inequality and many of the "shady" practices of "Wall Street" and its' handlers.
Fundamentally, Citizens United poisons the well (further). It betrays democratic republic ideals whether you're a democrat, republican, libertarian, or some other persuasion. I'm out to let NutAgain continue making his argument and contribution.
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 24, 2015 - 08:50pm PT
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OK Mark Force, what and how has CU actually influenced the elections since their inception some 25 years ago?
Please explain how Obama got elected, not once but twice if CU is such a poison.
PS: Mark, it's called questioning the authenticity of it all, the PITA that is.
Far too many in this country have become and are sheep and do not think on their own. Period.
I respect and admire the fact that YOU are NOT one of those.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Being In Sierra Happy Of Place
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Aug 24, 2015 - 08:52pm PT
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Chief! more casting,less trolling...show us the lunkers!
He is! The usual suspects.
I just stopped by for the spin cycle.
See ya!
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Aug 24, 2015 - 08:57pm PT
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TGT's opaque post still doesn't address whether he thinks Mark F's 'one person, one vote' concept is consistent with the principles of Democracy, or not.
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 24, 2015 - 09:00pm PT
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CU is just another unharmful "fad" or group of fanatics amongst the many that are permitted to exist via the 1st Amend as TGT noted.
They are nothing more. The reality that Obama was voted in twice is prime example of that.
You all here make them into the Boogie Man that will come in the night and take away this country from what you all want it to be. Regardless what that is. This is all kin to McCarthism, the KKK, the Pinkertons and so many other entities that this country has experienced since it's inception. All that we as a nation have survived and moved on.
That is the wonderful thing about FREEDOM and the Constitution we live under here in this country. AND that is why it is the BEST nation on this planet. Bar none.
Curious to see what country Gumby posts that is better than this one.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Aug 24, 2015 - 11:38pm PT
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What is the difference between CU and this org,
http://occupywallst.org/about/
Does it provide the framework for groups other than ordinary citizens to buy elections or donate to campaigns secretly. It may be that they do. I have no idea.
You've obviously thought about this alot, so how about you explain why you think they are similar instead of having us play this guessing game.
Obama was elected twice because he was the best candidate twice.
And to answer your question from earlier. It's a tough one because I do love living here so much and wouldn't consider living anywhere else. A lot of that has to do with familiarity, family, and the wonderful life I've created here.
Having said that, if I grew up in Canada, Germany, Switzerland, Sweden, France or Iceland I doubt I would consider leaving for the US. And if my only concern was living in the greatest country in the world I would probably choose one of those. If mountains weren't my thing there are probably others I could add to the list.
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Aug 25, 2015 - 12:01am PT
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Local politics is the essence of democracy and liberty.
De-centralize the power in DC, and the influence of money will decrease.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Aug 25, 2015 - 01:32am PT
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What the hell The Chief you can't mock me right away? Sleeping is no excuse.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 25, 2015 - 01:41am PT
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De-centralize the power in DC, and the influence of money will decrease.
That's naive. Think of money more like a gas or mercury - however you re-structure power it will simply morph to fit the new topology.
And to be honest, of late I've been beginning to think that, from an overhead and infrastructure perspective, the whole concept of states is antiquarian and killing us in terms of comparative advantage.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Aug 25, 2015 - 06:58am PT
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I do believe that our society would be improved if the requirement for being a full citizen with voting rights would be two years of public service; not necessarily military. And, no, I didn't serve in the military (one of my few regrets).
And how is that any different or less discriminatory than a poll tax or literacy test?
If you want to go there, let's simplify it.
you have to show photo ID and have to be a net tax payer and not a net tax recipient.
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/422921/birthright-citizenship-economic-costs-incentives
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Aug 25, 2015 - 07:04am PT
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Mandatory service and voter ID requirements are apples and oranges.
I'd support a service requirement, but Americans are too entitled. It would never see mainstream support.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Aug 25, 2015 - 07:12am PT
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How could you have mandatory service without voter ID?
If no ID was required, the service wouldn't be mandatory.
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 25, 2015 - 07:44am PT
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Canada, Germany, Switzerland, Sweden, France or Iceland
Canada:
You'd be whining about all the Redneck Conservatives that run the "Government". The fact that you'll be constantly busted for having a joint if you do not hold a govt issued medicinal card. You most certainly will love the more tolerant national gun control laws that govern unprohibited weapons than you have here in the US. The fact that the lack of environmental protection for a open pit mining operation that you will start is a big plus. And, what you pay maybe 3-5% less in overall daily living expenses, well, that will certainly be made up by paying upwards of 10-15% more consumer and national tax per year than you currently do here in the US. AND you will certainly love that national oil pipeline that is running across the country to send it all to.. China.
Germany:
You'd be whining how the Polizi has too much power when they search your car each and every time they pull you over and suspect that you have drugs in it. Oh, then you'll realize after you compare your pay stub that you'd be taking home more than 20.2% more of your weekly pay if you lived in the US. Taxes Taxes and more Taxes. And I hope you don't plan on driving or just plain travelling often cus gas and transportation expenses are 4 to 5 times the cost it is in Tahoe.
Switzerland:
Ah, now that one's cool and acceptable, honestly. You most certainly will definitely enjoy it when your directed to go off to do your mandatory one year "National" service and maintain that weapon in your household that is issued to you by the government. One primary reason the national crime rate is so low. Oh, and be prepared to be summonsed at any time to serve your country. One problem though is the gas, rent clothing and food, well, check em out. Upwards of 40% more you'll be paying than if in the US.
Sweden:
You will love that you'll pay more taxes per year than any other nation in Europe and one of the highest rates in the entire world. Yup. You'll love the fact that you bust your ass at work only to bring home 40% of the pay you worked for. THEN, you'll really get pissed off when you find out you are paying 2-3 times the cost in transportation to go off to them mtns and buying all that climbing gear, well, 4 to 5 times the cost of what it is in the US. Oh, and your salary does NOT make up for all the jacked up prices. It's about 2-5% less than you'll be making in the US.
France:
You'll love the fact that you pay upwards of 8-10% more for your every day goods than in the US after paying the gov't a whopping 55-60% of your take home pay in taxes. Second to highest to Sweden. Gasoline well over twice that you pay in the US. Certainly you will enjoy not having that bigass van of yours. Cus you won't be able to afford it.
Iceland:
Really. Do you know why Iceland ranks so high globally in Young Adult Alcohol addiction? The every day dude pays upwards of 5 times more for every day goods he needs to live on than in the US. All that after paying twice the amount of taxes for it all including your annual ones. Oh and the salary, well, you'll have to pay all that extra for everything on up to 25% less a salary than you'd be getting in the US for the same job. Don't even think about driving as often as you do in Tahoe unless your rich and can pay $6 plus a gallon for gas and four times to own a vehicle.
Certainly appears Gumby that you are right. If you're a Socialist of course and love paying out the ass to the gov't in taxes taxes and more taxes. And in most cases doing so with less pay. Socialized medicine and education etc isn't free in those countries as most here in the US would lead you to believe. Unless of course you are mooche and don't work.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 25, 2015 - 11:20am PT
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I don't see a groundswell of grassroots liberals consolidating to fight Citizen's United, or to get a constitutional amendment on campaign finance that protects our representative government from the influences of corporations and rich individuals whose interests do not match the large majority of our citizens.
I have a hard time understanding the true believers in the alleged evil of the majority opinion in Citizens United. The statement above assumes a great many facts not in evidence. These include, but are not limited to, the following:
1. "The influence of corporations. . . whose interests do not match the large majority of our citizens." Which corporations? Which citizens? Do you mean, e.g., Time-Warner, Disney, Dow Jones & Co., NBC, ABC, CBS, The New York Times Co., and all the other media outlets that were completely unregulated under McCain-Feingold? Yes, I know that McCain-Feingold left those corporations alone because they realized that the First Amendment applied to a corporation's freedom of the press but, hey, since when is consistency or logic a requirement for true belief?
2. "The influence of . . . rich individuals whose interests do not match the large majority of our citizens." Again, which individuals, and which interests? Do you mean the Koch Borthers, or do you mean Tom Steyer, George Soros or Elon Musk? All have interests that aren't necessarily those of "the large majority of our citizens," whatever those interests are or however one purports to measure them.
3. "[G]et a constitutional amendment on campaign finance that protects our representative government. . . ." Just how would such an amendment "protect our representative government?" If you want public financing, you're giving the government the power to determine who can run for office. That sounds like a recipe for tyrany, not freedom. If you limit what candidates can spend to get their message out, you limit the information available to voters. How does that constitute protection?
4. Implicit in the criticism of the majority opinion in Citizens United is an assumption that McCain-Feingold was somehow protecting the electorate from undue influence. If so, please explain why it should be perfectly legal for an individual or corporation that owns a media outlent to say anything it (or he or she) wants whenever it wants, but if the individual or corporation only rents a media outlet (i.e., buys an ad), society needs to regulate what he, she or it says.
5. Also implicit in the criticism is either an assumption that limiting what an individual can spend on propagating his or her message is compatible with freedom of speech and assists in "leveling the playing field," or that freedom of speech and of expresison is a bad idea. In fact, as Donald Trump now asserts, the rich are still free to say what they want, but the poor (or middle class [e.g. Scott Walker, Marco Rubio or Joe Biden]) need to get money from donors. So are we to believe that the rich would not advocate policies in their self-interest? If so, please send me all your money and I will invest it in your best interest.
6. The argument also has an implicit assumption that corporations and "the rich" form a monolithic bloc representing an interest opposed to the "large majority of citizens." As you can tell, above, I'm skeptical of anyone's ability to tell me what "a large majority of citizens" want without watching how they vote with their feet and pocketbooks, but that's beside the point. The spectrum of corporations, non-individual entities (such as, e.g., government employee and other unions) and rich individuals may well mirror the interests of the country as a whole.
7. The argument assumes that without the clearly (to rational thinkers who believe in the Bill of Rights [my tongue is quite deeply in my cheek here]) unconstitutional restrictions on freedom of speech, that corporations and the rich determine the outcome of elections. This involves its own conspiracy theory that is just as looney as all the others. Do the "corporations and the rich" meet at some secret location to decide what the world will do? If so, they're awfully sneaky about it. It's particularly clever of them to have so many rich people and corporations support left-wing causes, send their kids to universities filled with left-wing indoctrinators and go bankrupt just to confuse us.
And those arguments are just for starters. Those who oppose the majority opinion of Citizens United ultimately advocate one of two things (whether they realize it or not): (1) people should not be able to pool their resources to advocate for particular outcomes in elections without the government telling them what they can do; or, more likely, (2) The left should get to say what it wants, without all those nasty counter-arguments by people who think as I do.
John
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 25, 2015 - 11:24am PT
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you have to show photo ID and have to be a net tax payer and not a net tax recipient.
Not a bad idea. Maybe run it out a bit and only people in net tax paying states can vote in national elections.
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 25, 2015 - 12:52pm PT
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I have a hard time understanding the true believers in the alleged evil of the majority opinion in Citizens United. The statement above assumes a great many facts not in evidence.
Those who oppose the majority opinion of Citizens United ultimately advocate one of two things (whether they realize it or not): (1) people should not be able to pool their resources to advocate for particular outcomes in elections without the government telling them what they can do; or, more likely, (2) The left should get to say what it wants, without all those nasty counter-arguments by people who think as I do.
Pretty much sums it up very eloquently.
Good Post John.
You terminated the assumed Boogie Man theory that seems to be promulgated by the "Progressives" that assuredly do not approve of any "Org." that pertains to the "Other Side".
So Gumby, your thoughts on those countries you posted that are supposedly "Better" than the US???
But I wish to add a statement in that same post the pretty much destroys any assumption that Cit Union has any influence on the actual election...
i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
Aug 24, 2015 - 11:38pm PT
Obama was elected twice because he was the best candidate twice.
.... if I grew up in Canada, Germany, Switzerland, Sweden, France or Iceland I doubt I would consider leaving for the US.
SO! Regardless the Koch Bros and all the evil money involved, your statement pretty much sums up the reality of what happens in the current election process.
It totally moots your reason for backing up the abolishment of the CU. They, the Citz Union, in fact were pretty heavily active during both of those elections in which Obama was elected and re-elected. were they not?
Edit:
GUMBY!
I just returned from town and talking to my Danish friend who owns/runs the local Harley Chopper shop. Funny thing while I was there, seven Swedes and four Danes rolled in with one of them Harley Adventure gigs. I quickly asked them as a group what they thought of America and all I got was a bunch of ear to ear big smiles a 22 thumbs up. I asked one of em how many Harleys he owns. He said none. It's cheaper for him to fly over here once a year, get on this adventure and ride around for a full month than it is to own one back in Sweden. The others were shaking their heads in full agreement. Then the owner of the shop who is now a cit, reminded me that he is here for the same reason. He could NEVER be doing what he's doing here if he was back in Denmark. BTW, he has a couple of HD's that are owned by some fellow Dane friends that he keeps for them and they then ride when they come over 2-3 times a year. Both are waiting for their paperwork to get approved to enter on a temp emp visa.
Go figure....
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Aug 25, 2015 - 03:05pm PT
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So it's easier to get an American made motorcycle in America. Go figure.
Diesel prices in Germany are currently a little more than twice what they are in Tahoe, and they have excellent public transportation. I'll assume the rest of your figures are similarly fudged.
Let's just say we have different value sets. When I read you're post it gives the feeling that America is the Walmart of nations. I don't mind paying taxes when the money goes to the greater good. Single payer health care is an excellent example.
Why is is so important to you that I think America is so fantastically great? I find blind patriotism to be a scary thing.
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 25, 2015 - 03:11pm PT
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Nice dodge GUMBY. But then who figured you post anything else.
BTW: Them EUROS, especially Danes, Swedes and Germans, Italians etc love Harley's and everything that they represent more than anything their countries produce in the motorcycle sense of things. But then that just shows your personal experience in actually "living" over there.
I'll assume the rest of your figures are similarly fudged.
nope... Check em ALL out for yourself Gumby...
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_rates
BTW Gumby, you been/lived in any of them countries you mentioned for an extended amount of time?
Just a little insight, I was born in Spain and most of Mom's family still resides there. Am in reg contact with them all and have lived there and throughout Europe for several years in the past 56 years.
I don't mind paying taxes when the money goes to the greater good. Single payer health care is an excellent example.
So then you currently voluntarily pay 60% of your current wages to the State of CA and the IRS do ya? How admirable of you. If you don't, let me know and I will pm you my address and you can send me the difference so that I can pay for my health/dental insurance that I was told before I retired would be paid for and then got shafted.
Why is is so important to you that I think America is so fantastically great?
I personally could give a ratsass. Just another example of how the modern young Progessive hasn't a clue as to how good they truly have it here in the US. Walmart or not. Especially those that have NEVER been outside of the country and lived in a foreign country for an extended amount of time. Which obviously YOU have never done. Cus if you had done so to any of those countries you suggested, and admired paying all them taxes etc., you wouldn't be posting from your computer in Tahoe.
Edit: I fking loathe Walmart. Appears by your in depth knowledge that is your primary source of shopping while down in Carson, Gumby!
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Aug 25, 2015 - 04:26pm PT
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Seriously? Clearly you've never been in the military.
DMT
Good one, Dingus.
You'ze a funny dude.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Aug 25, 2015 - 04:35pm PT
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SO! Regardless the Koch Bros and all the evil money involved, your statement pretty much sums up the reality of what happens in the current election process.
It totally moots your reason for backing up the abolishment of the CU. They, the Citz Union, in fact were pretty heavily active during both of those elections in which Obama was elected and re-elected. were they not?
Obama won both times because he had a better campaign and favorable circumstances. And he was the better candidate. Neither race was close.
The new money provided by CU makes a difference in close races. The GOP kicked ass in 2014. There were a number of reasons for their success. SuperPac / 527 / Dark pools were a major factor.
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 25, 2015 - 06:11pm PT
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Ah EdwardT you completely forgot the fact that over 65% of the dem voters decided to not get off their couches and go vote. I believe that played a major role in the last elections.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Aug 25, 2015 - 06:16pm PT
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Dingus, Edward and probably the rest of the progs missed the point.
Not surprising at all.
I'll spell it out.
How would mandatory service be any less restrictive or potentiality discriminatory than a poll tax?
Requiring labor (service)for a vote would be the same as requiring the proceeds of ones labor. It would be the same thing as a poll tax.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Aug 25, 2015 - 06:20pm PT
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 25, 2015 - 06:25pm PT
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Oh the Irony of it all....
1904
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 25, 2015 - 06:41pm PT
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The chief...you keep hanging out with those scandinavians and i'm going to start calling you el coyote...rj
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 25, 2015 - 07:09pm PT
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You know better than that RJ... "El Lobo Negro" would be far more appropriate for that region... know what I mean amigo!
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Aug 25, 2015 - 08:13pm PT
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Not dodging anything Chief. But once again your number are WAY off.
From the link you posted these are the MAXIMUM individual tax rates. Trust me when I say I'm nowhere near that rate. In every country listed the minimum is 0.
Canada-50%
Germany-45%
Switzerland-13.2%
Sweden-59.7%
France-45%
Iceland-46%
United States-55.9%
Both Canada and the US figures include State (provincial) and local taxes in the max figure.
For a look at what a more average earner (still more than me) pays go here
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/01/how-low-are-us-taxes-compared-to-other-countries/267148/
I'm not gonna quote the numbers (cause it's a horrible graphic for old eyes) but the spread is between just under 20% (Switzerland) up to around 45% (Germany) with the US coming in at just under 30%.
So when you say
So then you currently voluntarily pay 60% of your current wages to the State of CA and the IRS do ya? How admirable of you. I have to assume your just making shet up to try to prove a point.
I did the actual math and the cost of diesel (that's what the big yellow van, my girlfriend's, uses) is $1.30/liter today in Germany. That's 1.59 times the current cost of $3.09/gallon at the Raley's in Tahoe.
So when you say
And I hope you don't plan on driving or just plain travelling often cus gas and transportation expenses are 4 to 5 times the cost it is in Tahoe. I have to assume your just making shet up to try to prove a point.
I'm not a fan of Walmart either. However, when we travel the country in the Bumble Beast we will often avail ourselves of their parking lot campground policy. It's nice to have a toilet when you wake up. We have added a luggable loo to the van's arsenal so we'll see if we still do that in the future.
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 25, 2015 - 08:25pm PT
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Like I said there Gumby, Germany has many TOLLS on the Autobahn, higher Insurance (*Cost for auto insurance, did you even bother to look that up? NO!) and Taxes added onto the ride. The Cost of "desiel" aint the only gig in town. It aint America.
Auto Insurance in Germany:
In Germany, you are usually going to spend around €1400 for auto insurance on a yearly basis. This part of Europe is also notorious for rather laid back speed limits and traffic laws, which allows for more excitement while drivers are on the road. The expensive cars and high speed limits make this country an insurance company’s nightmare.
1400 Euro = 1611 US
Road TOLLS in Germany:
All drivers using highways, or "Autobahnen," in Germany will have to pay the fee, including motorists from abroad...
http://www.dw.com/en/germany-approves-contentious-road-toll/a-18345291
Your post above just confirms that YOU HAVE NEVER been to Germany nor any other country you mentioned.
You are just an internet fantasy young sheep Progressive that hasn't a real clue as to the REALITIES of the shet you think you know.
Again, thanks for confirming that.
I have to assume your just making shet up to try to prove a point.
Since you got it all figured out and if Germany, Sweden, France, Iceland etc are such a grand place to live, then I highly suggest you grow a pair, put your mouth where it meets the autobahn and move.
Then you can have first hand experience and tell me I am all wrong based on that. Not by googling it.
But, You're all talk and that it'll never happen. Never.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Aug 25, 2015 - 10:06pm PT
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I already mentioned I have no plans to move, nor will I change my plans for you. I did however, know you would say that because you're really quite predictable. And I have been to England, Germany, Austria and France. No I didn't stay there for an extended period, but I did rear end a guy in traffic in Munich. Does that count? I will be in Canada ths winter using up my mountain collective pass.
Also, I don't know where you got the idea that I'm a young progressive. I used to be a young republican but that lasted from Reagan through Clinton. I always considered myself fiscally on the right and socially on the left. Then I stopped chasing the American dream realizing it was more of a nightmare.
On the other hand, perhaps you know I'm not so young since YOU keep SHOUTING as THOUGH I'm HARD of hearing.
BTW, if you're gonna put a word in quotes for sarcastic emphasis, spell it correctly.
By the way#2. Did you read the article you linked? It doesn't take effect until next year if the EU doesn't strike it down, which they are trying to do. It also doesn't apply to many people, and many of those it does apply to will receive it back in tax rebates.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Being In Sierra Happy Of Place
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Aug 25, 2015 - 10:13pm PT
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"can't you see...
oh can't you see...
what this troll
he has been doin' to me!"
Well played, Sir!
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 25, 2015 - 10:35pm PT
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On the other hand, perhaps you know I'm not so young since YOU keep SHOUTING as THOUGH I'm HARD of hearing. HUH... You got some special computer that verbalizes text?
"By the way. Did you read the article you linked? It doesn't take effect until next year if the EU doesn't strike it down, which they are trying to do. It also doesn't apply to many people, and many of those it does apply to will receive it back in tax rebates.
Apparently you can not read too well either cus it states nothing of the sorts.
The German lower house, or Bundestag, passed the road toll legislation on Friday with a vote of 433-128, with six abstentions.
Although the upper house, the Bundesrat, will review the legislation at the start of May, it has no power to stop its implementation, meaning that the toll, which has provoked heated debate in Germany, will likely be introduced next year.
All drivers using highways, or "Autobahnen," in Germany will have to pay the fee, including motorists from abroad, but the German-registered drivers - who will automatically pay the toll for both highways and major roads - will receive the money back indirectly by paying less motor vehicle tax.
For this reason, the toll will be reviewed by the European Court of Justice - the highest court for European Union law - to determine whether it contravenes EU rules on discrimination.
Drivers from outside Germany will be able to pay toll for a year, ten days or two months, at corresponding prices. In addition, the price of the toll will be determined according to the size of vehicles and the amount of polluting emissions they produce. http://www.dw.com/en/germany-approves-contentious-road-toll/a-18345291
"I already mentioned I have no plans to move"
But But But what happen to being all for this....
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Ah, thank god you were just playing the Progessive BS game and imitating one. Was getting worried that there was another one in the ST line up.
Edit:
I did rear end a guy in traffic.....
That of course was with your rental, car, that is.... correct? Poot Poot.
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overwatch
climber
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Aug 25, 2015 - 11:18pm PT
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f*#king NPD convention
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Aug 25, 2015 - 11:39pm PT
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JEleazarian,
An excellent synopsis of points supporting the Supreme's decision
Your points on media corporations and public employee unions are spot on.
Money is the mother's milk.
If influence is being bought, who's selling it?
It buys ads, and voters buy or don't buy the message.
For myself, buyer beware.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Aug 25, 2015 - 11:43pm PT
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HUH... You got some special computer that verbalizes text? I guess it went over your head. Oh well.
Apparently you can not read too well either cus it states nothing of the sorts. Yes. It absolutely does. Remember, we're discussing what it's like to live there. Not what it's like for me to visit there. I would be a german-registered driver. Otherwise why would I be paying the exorbitant taxes you keep harping about?
Ah, thank god you were just playing the Progessive BS game and imitating one. Was getting worried that there was another one in the ST line up. I never said I'm not a progressive (can we just call it a liberal, I'm not down with the rebranding). I said I didn't use to be. I am a liberal. But it's something I've been moving toward since coming out of college a staunch Republican with a degree in finance.
Yeah, it was a rental car. Just saying I was there and adding a vehicle related anecdote, mostly for humor.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Aug 25, 2015 - 11:45pm PT
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And also to lighten things up, maybe we can agree on this.
America was greater when a razor only came with a maximum of three blades.
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 26, 2015 - 12:12am PT
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Yes. It absolutely does. Remember, we're discussing what it's like to live there. Not what it's like for me to visit there. I would be a german-registered driver.
Ok. I will give you that one. BUT you're gonna now have to pay that nice $1500 a year in Auto Insurance and them other nice fatass "individual" taxes upwards of 45% and a Payroll tax of around 41%.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_rates
OK.. got the new computer all smoothed out and up. GN---Gumby.
BTW, when I started shaving there was only one solid blade in my shaver.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Aug 26, 2015 - 12:49am PT
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Ok. I will give you that one. BUT you're gonna now have to pay that nice $1500 a year in Auto Insurance and them other nice fatass "individual" taxes upwards of 45% and a Payroll tax of around 41% Please stop. There is no 'upwards of 45%'. 45% is the maximum. That amount kicks in at a taxable income of 250k euro (equates to $270k-$350k in the last year).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Germany
Yes the payroll tax is 41%. Half is paid by the employer and the part you pay reduces your taxable income. This is where the health insurance and social security come from).
Oh yeah. Free college.
Yes taxes are relatively high in Germany. But like many German cars you're getting what you pay for. I'm ok with that.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 26, 2015 - 01:10am PT
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Oh yeah. Free college.
True, They don't look at college students as a profit center and debt mules.
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 26, 2015 - 07:11am PT
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There is no 'upwards of 45%'. 45% is the maximum.
No difference. Dah! Gumby, I now see why you are so influenced by and believe the "Liberal" propaganda on Citz United. Seriously.
OK, back to the OP Gumby. (Nut Again or anyone for that matter.....)
Since you have demonstrated your ability to google shet and skew the truth, show us where in the past 25 years of Citz United's existence they have actually influenced the tide of a National election. Show a viable source. Not a skewed or bias one. I know that will be a rather difficult task for you but please do try. Thanks.
Free College
See, you just don't understand the concept of paying taxes outta your ass and "Free". Perfect example of your skewed conception of reality.
It's NOT free.
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Norton
Social climber
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Aug 26, 2015 - 07:43am PT
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STOP
You are trying to have a conversation with a narcissist.
Look up narcissist, "It's all about ME", all the time, what I did in my life, all about ME
you cannot make intellectual progress, impossible
you will be drowned out by sheer volume, and length, of the replies
STOP
walk away, you are dealing with a child, you ignore children, it's all about them
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dirtbag
climber
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Aug 26, 2015 - 08:29am PT
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^^^word^^^
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 26, 2015 - 08:48am PT
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STOP
You are trying to have a conversation with a narcissist.
Look up narcissist, "It's all about ME", all the time, what I did in my life, all about ME
you cannot make intellectual progress, impossible
you will be drowned out by sheer volume, and length, of the replies
STOP
walk away, you are dealing with a child, you ignore children, it's all about them
Typical Progressive personal attack mode deflection. Right on Cue Norton. If the conversation does not roll in the direction that supports the agenda, then those that abide by the agenda MUST deflect it in any way shape or form for it to do so.
Prime example of how the political ideologies have NO open mindness. None. That goes for all Parties.
Bravo Zulu Norton. You are a good Sheep.. I mean soldier.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 26, 2015 - 08:50am PT
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Well, Chief, I will say one thing that I suspect you will agree with - the high costs of getting a
driver's license, car, and insurance* keep the 'tards off the roads to a greater extent than here.
At least over there they both know and follow the law, which is honored here almost invariably
in the breech, to KEEP YER SLOW AZZ TO THE RIGHT LANE!
*in Germany
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 26, 2015 - 09:03am PT
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Hey Norton, instead of being a complete jerk off, go ahead and post up any time that Citz United has made a difference in influencing the National Elections the past 25 years they have been around.
Show a pair, really Norton. Quit being a fking whank sheep.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Aug 26, 2015 - 09:04am PT
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Upwards of = more than. Is your Google broken? Here, try mine.
In the context of the conversation, which was what you get for paying Germany's higher taxes, free college tuition is an accurate description.
Since you have demonstrated your ability to google shet and skew the truth, show us where in the past 25 years of Citz United's existence they have actually influenced the tide of a National election. Show a viable source. Not a skewed or bias one. I know that will be a rather difficult task for you but please do try. Thanks. Don't talk to me about skewing the truth. I have consistently shown you are either lying, making sh#t up, or just plain stupid.
Noone here is talking about disbanding Citizens United, the organization. The discussion is about overturning the supreme court decision from 2010.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 26, 2015 - 09:06am PT
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They've always had horrific crashes, kinda hard to have a less-than-horrific at 100+, but you
may be right in that even tards can afford a car now over there. In general I find Euros to be
much better drivers than here, but then I live in Tardland so my opinion is rather jaundiced.
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 26, 2015 - 09:10am PT
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Euros to be much better drivers than here...
Your joking right Reilly? When is the last time you drove in Spain, Portugal, Italy and/or Greece?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 26, 2015 - 09:24am PT
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Last fall in Italy. I didn't say they aren't loco I just think they handle their vehicles better.
Course it's a good thing they're only driving toy cars for the most part. So we had just got
off the train in Florence and about 6 blocks from the station I started to step off the curb.
Growing up in Chicago, and playing cornerback, has given me excellent SA and peripheral
vision. A car whipped up on my left to turn right into my path but he slammed on his Brembos-
it was a chauffer in a Bentley Conti GT. I wasn't in a hurry so I waved him on with a smile.
He gave me a big smile and a wave. I love Italians - they can't run a country worth a sh!t,
but nobody's perfect.
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 26, 2015 - 09:28am PT
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My hometown Reilly. I actually learned how to drive there when I was 14. My Uncle would maneuver these typical streets at well over 35mph.
Cordoba
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 26, 2015 - 09:30am PT
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Yeah, driving in Spain is more loco than Italy!
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dirtbag
climber
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Aug 26, 2015 - 09:48am PT
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When I was in Italy, I thought Italian drivers were friggin bonkers.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 26, 2015 - 09:50am PT
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You haven't driven with me! IMHO, the motos are the locos cause they'll take to the sidewalk
to get around a holdup.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 26, 2015 - 10:44am PT
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KEEP YER SLOW AZZ TO THE RIGHT LANE!
Since we're now into complete thread (if not four-wheel) drift, the above statement has great truth. When I was in grad school, I did some econometric studies to try to determine if changes in fuel prices affected vehicle safety. In the process, it became clear that speed limits had no statistically significant correlation to safety. Even absolute speed driven correlated very little with safety, although basic physics says that the kinetic energy absorbed in a crash increases with speed.
The only variable involved with speed that mattered significantly was relative speed compared with the speed of traffic. Slower vehicles in the right lane is a good start (I always believed in the motto "If you're passed on the right, you're wrong," rather than the anti-speed version). A better strategy is to get the slow cars off the road entirely. Someone travelling just five mph below the speed of traffic is ten times as likely to be involved in a collision as someone travelling at the speed of traffic. In contrast, you need to be travelling 10 mph over the speed of traffic to run the same risk as travelling 5 mph below it.
Sorry for the OT rant, but the garbage I hear (and see reported) about highway safety needs to be exposed as such.
John
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Aug 26, 2015 - 11:16am PT
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Most aamof "hate" the government and abide ONLY by the laws and rules of their Nation.
Oh, you mean they HATE the US Gov't, but LOVE LOVE LOVE their OWN gov't.
Well, what do you expect of foreigners? Since they have their own nation and sovereignty?
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 26, 2015 - 11:24am PT
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Ah, MAYBE Ken M can answer the million dollar question.
What clear evidence is there that any one of the National Elections in the past 25 years was ever swayed by the Citz United?
Please do post it up.
Still waiting for any of you Citz United hating folks do so.
Also be very curious to see how much "influence" GE, Microsoft and a slew of other "Green" Corps including many associated with George Soros had in the last two National Elections and getting Obama in the House.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Aug 26, 2015 - 12:00pm PT
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Again you're not grasping the topic. This about the Supreme court decision, not the organization. I do see now what you meant when you asked about the difference between CU and occupywallstreet. Yes they are similar, but it is irrelevant to the conversation, which is not about the organization, but is about the the Supreme Court's decision.
Trying to say it's about the organization is just drawing attention away from Citizens United (the court decision).
Now what was this thread about again?
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 26, 2015 - 12:10pm PT
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No Gumby... the point is why are all yahoo Progressives making such a fuss over an org that is simply practicing it's 1st Amend rights. Could it just be cus ya'll want to stifle them from doing so. Thus claiming the SCOTUS is bias in their decision in doing so. Appears like everything else most of ya Libs do across this nation to stifle anyone that disagrees with your platform.
The irony in this thread is the verbiage in kind used by some of your co-heart Liberals directed towards the Citz Union Org. is right along the lines of many who post their feelings here towards any non-conformer on the "Left" agenda.
Trying to say it's about the organization is just drawing attention away from Citizens United (the court decision).
With that said GUMBY, post up why the SCOTUS should have decided different than how they did. Specifically actions done or recorded events by the Citz United Org swaying any election that should have affected their end decision. Now that is the meat and potatoes of it all is it not?
Just like all them taxes you'd be paying throughout your life to gain that "Free Education".
EDIT:
Sure does appear this issue is not a new one by any means.
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couchmaster
climber
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Aug 26, 2015 - 12:15pm PT
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What is all the whining about? Here's something to bitch on. Perhaps the CU decision then allows countries to be people too. So say, Iran, can toss a couple million into a prospective candidates coffer pile to influence votes as well?
Oh schnapp! that's already occurred. Recently. Not in a corrupt 3rd world hell hole either. HERE. Oh wait, didn't that USED to be called treason? Yes, it did.
Should those candidates who received money from Iranians (IE, THE Iranian American Political Action Committee (IAPAC)" recuse themselves from voting on the Iran deal? If the answer is "yes", then how about the better known AIPAC? (where's Fattrad to help argue this when ya need him) Should those candidates who received money from them not vote on Israeli issues? Is the Iran vote also an Israeli vote?
How many congressmen and senators are left, unsullied by money, who could now vote on the Iran deal? 3?
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dirtbag
climber
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Aug 26, 2015 - 12:34pm PT
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
Aug 26, 2015 - 12:00pm PT
Again you're not grasping the topic. This about the Supreme court decision, not the organization. I do see now what you meant when you asked about the difference between CU and occupywallstreet. Yes they are similar, but it is irrelevant to the conversation, which is not about the organization, but is about the the Supreme Court's decision.
Trying to say it's about the organization is just drawing attention away from Citizens United (the court decision).
Now what was this thread about again?
e
Waste of time expecting a forthright response from Chief Running Mouth. Best not to feed the troll, and let him go back to trout fishing instead.
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 26, 2015 - 12:37pm PT
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Appears it's a waste of time to even consider getting a forthright response on the fundamental issue at hand considering CU form any Lefty here, let alone anything of intelligent end results of eaten fodder from you Dirtbags.
Thanks for clearly reminding us of that consistency you display here.
Whine for no rhyme or reason, call Orgs and all those that do not roll the same vile names etc. Good on you Boys. The true cards keep showing.
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dirtbag
climber
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Aug 26, 2015 - 12:38pm PT
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Stick to trout and Sierra lake photos, those are lovely.
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 26, 2015 - 12:41pm PT
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Here's one just for you Dirts. Your so full of deep smarts you'd try to grab him, pet his ass them take him home so the kids can play with him. How does one know this, not one climbing shot in your profile. Just a bunch of Dirtshet. Obviously your level of smarts doesn't get any higher than all them photos you got.
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dirtbag
climber
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Aug 26, 2015 - 01:30pm PT
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I love you too.
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 26, 2015 - 01:33pm PT
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Pooot Pooot... and then a big POOOT!
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| Messages 1 - 169 of total 169 in this topic |
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