Maturing of climbing as a sport & the rise of gyms NYTimes

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Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 25, 2015 - 02:19pm PT
"For the most part, everyone I've talked to in the gym has either had no experience climbing at the local spots, or have only sampled them, where gyms have provided the majority of their practice to that point. The part that scares me is that most of these people are kids from universities, not very different from my age, but they seem to have a mindset somewhere along the lines of "gym climbing is it, that's the best that climbing has to offer", or at the very least they come to gyms because it relieves them from committing to any form of time or money investment that is involved with doing a weekend trip which requires gas, time, food, and gear.
... very few gym regulars are ever going to make a serious effort outside because it doesn't fit their lifestyle or they just aren't interested in adventure to begin with. It just seems like what gyms are doing for land preservation and access is totally marginal compared to what they're doing for gear companies and their own pockets. I could be wildly wrong, but I'm a pessimist by nature."

In the first place, it is a VERY good thing that all these people are not crowding the crags. Gyms are very low environmental impact compared to what happens outdoors, which can get attention from those who want to restrict access, especially in California.

In the second place, frequent roadtrips are very time-consuming and not necessarily a wise use of time for someone who likes climbing as a recreational sport and not an entire lifestyle. There's nothing scary about this. In fact I'd say that it's the norm and that climbing as a lifestyle is outside the norm. It is a given that only a small percent of people are really going to get involved in anything beyond their own immediate interest.

That said, in the third place, gyms do a lot to help with outdoor issues and education. Maybe you should check out the board of directors of the SDRPF before assuming so much. At recent trail & cleanup days, many attended as a result of publicity by gyms. Usually gyms are happy to promote and help with events, but that does require someone (yourself?) to get involved, such as to make plans with the land managers. Local issues are an opportunity where someone can actually make a difference (not the same as big national issues).
cat t.

climber
california
Aug 25, 2015 - 02:34pm PT
Trad ladies swoon.
Mike, that's actually fainting, and it's caused by the smell of your manky TC pros
cat t.

climber
california
Aug 25, 2015 - 02:53pm PT
I guess sirens, being of the sea, lack olfaction.
cat t.

climber
california
Aug 25, 2015 - 03:24pm PT
I deserve to get kicked out of the van so many times over for cyberbullying you...

long pants rolled short, long sleeves rolled short, and then that argyle sock + trad shoe combo? Girls go cray.
cat t.

climber
california
Aug 25, 2015 - 03:33pm PT
His sock/sweater combos were on a whole other level, man! I bet he appreciated the effort that goes into knitting.
cat t.

climber
california
Aug 25, 2015 - 03:48pm PT
Saving myself for a nice pair of sculpted calves.
Fulfilling your mother's secondary wish, then, eh? ;)

The rolled pants are even better when comically asymmetrical. So authentic.
Matt's

climber
Aug 25, 2015 - 03:50pm PT
YOU two need to bang already and get it over with.
+1
cat t.

climber
california
Aug 25, 2015 - 03:52pm PT
MATT, UGH.
I'm gonna start belaying you like you belay me.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Aug 25, 2015 - 04:04pm PT
Yes Vitaliy, there's nothing like training on the stunning shunts down at the Cookie before going off to Mount Sir Donald.

Sir Donald? You'd have to do it in winter with a sled and a box of whiskey on your back to consider it a real mountain climb, Jim. Real men climb peaks that see more deaths than recorded summits, Jim. Climb one of those than maybe you could compare the experience to the bad assery of your local car camping cragstars.


When you go to sleep to a sight of one of these summit ridges you have to accept that your close ones may get your body, if you can call it a body, in a month, if they are exceptionally lucky. Pre climb coffee has to taste a bit like death before the 1am summit push and you should enjoy it, if you are a real man, Jim. It is easy to un-tame the personal climbing experience, if you want it. So do you want to be a real man or would it be easier to wrap your paw around a warm coffee mug and yap about the boring aspects of modern-day gym climbing?
If any of you trad warriors feel like the climbing has became somewhat of a dull experience, move the iphone away from your mug and ask yourself when was the last time you personally have faced a real challenge? There are healthier ways to deal with insecurity than projecting the blame towards gym climbers. Gym climbing is what it is, gym climbing. Nothing more nothing less. Like weight-lifting or doing cardio in the gym, to some it is training, to some it is a way to keep yourself occupied with some sort of an activity, to some it is fun way to keep your body fit. Remember, there is always someone out there able to one up your perceived hard-man image. Maybe that someone climbed in the gym last night and had a soy latte...it doesn't actually matter...

To summarize my post and the thread I don't need to do anything but to quote the duck!
This modern internet yappin stuff is stooopid.

YAP YUP!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 25, 2015 - 04:13pm PT
When you go to sleep to a sight of one of these summit ridges you have to accept that your close ones may get your body, if you can call it a body, in a month, if they are exceptionally lucky.

I love challenges and managing risk, but when the proposition turns the subjective/objective risk ratio upside down, then success becomes as much a matter of luck and gambling as skill. Cool and works for a lot of people, but not really anything which interests me.
Matt's

climber
Aug 25, 2015 - 04:27pm PT
MATT, UGH.
I'm gonna start belaying you like you belay me.

PENALTY SLACK!
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Aug 25, 2015 - 06:02pm PT
A guy who's climbed with Kauk will always have an inferiority complex about his calves, Kathy

Not sure about what Kauk is packing, but I got 20$ Pellucid Wombat's calves are bigger.


This actually MAY be my photo with his caption. Not 100% sure. But damn! If anyone has a fetish for mountaineer's calves, he is your guy!
cat t.

climber
california
Aug 25, 2015 - 06:06pm PT
Obviously the maturing of climbing has only reached the prepubescent point
Finally we agree about something ;)
viv.r.e

climber
Sacramento
Aug 25, 2015 - 09:08pm PT
I doubt anyone is going to disagree with you that more men have put up FAs, but it still doesn't get at whether it's because of the general culture of the times those routes were put up.

But really, there's only one way to solve this...

SHOW US YOUR CALVES. Both of you. It's the only way we can judge.
Gary

Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
Aug 25, 2015 - 09:29pm PT
Seems there's more to climbing than Yosemite Valley. How do Wilts, Mendenhall and Lilley figure in your counting?
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Aug 25, 2015 - 10:42pm PT
I was surprised to see one first credited to an all female team of three - Lower Arches Traverse, grade 1, 5.3, Krehe Ritter, Mara Unterman, and Judy Byers, August 1957.

They were allowed to do what??!! Obviously the real men were not around in August 1957. Why weren't those broads washing dishes and changing diapers?! What would Burt Bronson do if he found out...unfkingreal.
viv.r.e

climber
Sacramento
Aug 25, 2015 - 11:02pm PT
Kevin, really no hard feelings, apology accepted. I think we can agree on a large number of things actually, but I also feel like the thread has been going in circles on this one. Here are some things I think we can agree on:

1) Women are not men, but are equal. Not all men are the same. Not all women are the same. There's some fraction in both populations that wants freedom/adventure/wildness.
2) Many FAs were put up in times when cultural norms for women did not encourage them to be adventurous. (To me this makes the women who pushed the limits even more bad @ss--they were counter counter culture.)
3) There's no scientific control for life, so we're never going to know nurture versus nature for women in climbing in the time period we're discussing...anything we say here is going to be speculation, but just the fact you're observing more adventurous women probably suggests to me that some part of it was cultural.
4) A lot of the low hanging FA/FFA fruit has been picked.
5) Climber humor is prepubescent. It looks like Vitaliy is trolling you again while I'm writing this overly long reply. This culture is probably why I feel comfortable with climbers :)

I'd still say that there are adventures to be had for the people who want it, as others pointed out, so many of those truly backcountry routes rarely get repeated. Some of them only have a paragraph description in an alpine club journal from the 70's, no pics.

That will take a long time, if ever, to change. I think it has to do with the distance to reach them, the length of a weekend, and how many people secretly enjoy or at least tolerate manzaneering/talus.

I'd be curious to see the rough number of people doing FA, FFAs, or alpine climbing with little beta. As a percent of the number of total climbers it's probably dropping just because of the increase in the total number of climbers, but it'd be interesting to see if the actual number of those people has changed. This post is now well into the obvious generalization territory that's been beaten many times in this thread and others...but climbing has always been changing, and people will always engage with it at different levels. I think that's ok. We get "cheats" people before us didn't, but then the things climbers as a whole can accomplish is also pushed forward. Sometimes I wonder what that limit is when I think of Uli Steck going up the South Face of Annapurna, or the Fitz Roy Traverse--it's kind of mind blowing.

The real question in my mind is how does a discipline that was largely based on mentorship handle a huge increase in the numbers of people who want to participate in it. There are a lot more climbers in gyms who would love to go outside then there are people who can or are willing to mentor them.

This is really longer than I meant it to be.

Kevin, peace--can we make this a virtual handshake/shot of whiskey?

P.S. Hopefully, I'll soon to be back to my life as a thread lurker....more calves
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Aug 25, 2015 - 11:18pm PT
2) Many FAs were put up in times when cultural norms for women did not encourage them to be adventurous. (To me this makes the women who pushed the limits even more bad @ss--they were counter counter culture.)

No sh#t.

I've had the great good fortune of climbing with several women who pushed the limits, and agree that, given the times, they were indeed far more badass than the men who climbed a few grades harder and got their names in the magazines.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Aug 25, 2015 - 11:57pm PT
5) Climber humor is prepubescent. It looks like Vitaliy is trolling you again while I'm writing this overly long reply. This culture is probably why I feel comfortable with climbers :)

I was not actually trolling Kevin in particular in my last post. He is right that women don't do as many first ascents as guys. That is a fact, obviously. WHY not, is the question that you guys can argue about.
Personally I would disagree with the claim that women made the modern climbers more tame. Guys wanted to get laid for a long time and I don't think they try to cater to women more than they did in the past, on average. Maybe they do, who knows, maybe one of you Stanford people could post some graph that could prove him right/wrong.


I'd be curious to see the rough number of people doing FA, FFAs, or alpine climbing with little beta.

AAJ is the annual source for that. You should get the current issue and see how many different FA teams are mentioned and calculate the number of women. If you are curious.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 26, 2015 - 12:42am PT
The real question in my mind is how does a discipline that was largely based on mentorship handle a huge increase in the numbers of people who want to participate in it

Quite poorly. Particularly in trad climbing where it can be real scary to watch sport crossovers giving it their first goes.
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