Maturing of climbing as a sport & the rise of gyms NYTimes

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patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Aug 24, 2015 - 12:17pm PT
My initial observation, which lit the fuse on the fembomb, was simply that gyms had made climbing more tame, and more comfortable, and that appealed to a broad range of broads who would probably never have ventured out to a real crag.

broads? are we using 1950s era language for 'promiscuous women' now?

btw, Im not that PC, just that my Crusty Trad BS meter is twitching.

Why haven't gyms made 'climbing more tame' for guys too?
overwatch

climber
Aug 24, 2015 - 12:18pm PT
how would anyone else's approach to climbing, whether male or female, affect what is entirely a personal choice like boldness?

all due respect to mr. Worrall you sir are a huge stud

Edit:
not much of a reply though
cat t.

climber
california
Aug 24, 2015 - 12:21pm PT
Why haven't gyms made 'climbing more tame' for guys too?
they were just followin' the boobs
it's all because of the boobs
;)

But wait!! Climbing hard totally shrinks boobs. The marketing scheme should fail.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 24, 2015 - 12:27pm PT
They have

So your thesis is the bolts allowed more women to climb and then they ruined climbing? Hardly. Again, half of climbers before sport climbing and gyms were nervous and jonesing to ditch their racks for the comfort of bolted lines and women had nothing to do with that pent up demand. And that doesn't even touch on the 1..2..3..out! aspect of climbing bitd where the vast majority of people who gave climbing a whirl were in and out in a heart beat - the cull and attrition rate was enormous. That just isn't the case anymore and bolts are the reason for the precipitous decline in boldness and the inability of most climbers to assume and manage the level of risk involved in onsight, ground-up FAs..
The Chief

climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
Aug 24, 2015 - 12:32pm PT
How could anyone here forget this Hardcore and true BADASS! She's got a heart of gold and climbs/bikes for the exact same reasons I did for over 40+ years. And now I have transferred all that zest, focus and intensity she speaks of and have applied it to my Fly Fishing.



Hoooooooooooooya Bobbi!


[Click to View YouTube Video]



If you look closely old Jeff "Medusa" Constine (@ 1:30) is spotting her... HA!


Edit: Hey Kevin (Warbler), she can/could out climb your ass yesterday and today then get down and then kick your ass ragged.
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Aug 24, 2015 - 12:43pm PT
My 8 yr old daughter plays youth soccer. She likes it. She's a good athlete, so I encourage her to play sports, because it's potentially a good way for her to get approval and admiration. But I think that her ADHD brain holds her back. Mostly she plays because she wants to have fun with her friends - it's hard for me to get her to be motivated to do the things she needs to do to get better. That's what I want her to do, not what she wants to do. I tried to get her to like climbing, but she doesn't.

I coached her soccer teams for her first 8 seasons, but now she's moved on to a competitive team with a real coach who knows what he's doing. He's making her play keeper, her least favorite position, because (I agree) she could be good at it, if she wanted to. But she doesn't. She's a natural motivated fierce center back - in goal she looks like she'd rather be somewhere else. The coach is not impressed by her coachability. I worry that what he's teaching her is that she doesn't like soccer.

She likes basketball. She just did a weeklong camp where she won a trophy for most improved in her group of 40 kids. Her team won the 3 v 3 tournament against mostly boys. The (mostly black) coaches graded her highest in Character (which was described as attitude, coachability, and mental toughness).

She has a soccer teammate, a little 8 yr old white girl, who is awesome! OMFG that kid is a warrior on the field - smart, skilled, fast, persistent, tireless, tough. Love to watch her play - she's got it all working together. Sweetheart of a kid - fun, goofy, friendly - I've never seen her foul anyone - she doesn't need to - she's just that good. Her parents say that she's bossy. Good for her.

She's not like my daughter. Once I turned around at practice to see a parent running onto our practice field yelling at my daughter "no you can't do that!" after she purposefully knocked one of her teammates (scrimmaging on the opposite team) down (I hadn't seen it). The girl had (accidentally?) knocked one of my daughter's friends down, and my daughter was pissed about it, and was retaliating to defend her friend. As much as I admire her, not something that I am allowed to admire about her.

We have a friend who plays on a premier league youth soccer team. At a recent soccer tournament an opposing player said to her "shut up black girl, you f*#king nigger." Coaches refs parents players heard her say it - she admitted saying it at the time - there was no dispute about what she had said. But the site manager and tournament director from our friend"s club that organized the tournament allowed the offending player to continue playing in the tournament with no repercussions (in FIFA it would be a minimum 5 game suspension). The offending girl's coach said "this is not how we behave" even though he had just witnessed his team behaving that way. Our friend's club added a new "zero tolerance for racism" policy, even though they had just tolerated this racism. Nike lists the club as one of the 60 best soccer clubs in the U.S. Our friend withdrew from the club because she just didn't feel like the club had her back.

I think a lot of times how we choose to see other people really says more about ourselves and who we are than it says about those other people and who they are. If we acknowledge that we judge climbers by their "balls", then sure, we're going to blame women for the dumbing down of climbing - they don't have balls. But I don't think that's about them, it's about us and how we choose to see our balls and ourselves.
viv.r.e

climber
Sacramento
Aug 24, 2015 - 01:03pm PT
I’m coming back (whhhhhhhhhy I do!!!??!!) only because one of my pet peeves is when people cherry-pick sentences from science articles to make broad generalizations. I can’t tell whether he be trollin’, be serious, or be seriously trollin’…but here’s a fact check:

clearly been shown, and recently reviewed that women show higher anxiety in comparison to men (Mchenry et al., 2014)

I skimmed the McHenry article over lunch, along with the other ones, and the continuing lolfest that is this thread (again, why I do!!?). As far as I could tell, it was referring to the incidence of clinical anxiety, not the average anxiety of women.

Men are 9Xs more likely to commit homicide then women, but that doesn't mean that I'm about to stop climbing with men because I think they're going to kill me when no one is looking.
cat t.

climber
california
Aug 24, 2015 - 01:09pm PT
What is it about the first ascent that makes it (seem) more important an issue to men as opposed to women?

It's an interesting question, DMT. I'm struggling to come up with an answer that doesn't rely on generalizations that I don't actually believe in. There's the nonsensical "men just want to claim their conquest!!" but that statement's just as absurd as "women like comfort!" (And we have plenty of counterexamples right in front of us: the masters of spray on this website are also the people who seem to love the mountains most earnestly and without pretense.) Maybe it only seems more important to men because of a very vocal internet minority?

I'm a bit amused by the question, too: you also emphasized up-thread that you were part of a very different generation from mine, but having read how you talk about climbing, I'm pretty sure we're motivated by very similar things. :) Which, I think, are the same reasons The Chief likes fly fishing.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Aug 24, 2015 - 01:20pm PT
Cherry-pick this my friend (from the same study you claim to "fact-check" Hint for you: Calling something a "fact check" and presenting no actual facts or dispute of facts, only a misunderstanding of how study methodology is chosen, does not, in FACT, constitute a "fact check". FACT).

approximately 18% of the adult American population suffers from an anxiety-related disorder and another 7% from major depressive disorder each year (Kessler et al., 2005b). Further, females are more than twice as likely as males to be afflicted by mood disorders (Kessler et al., 2005a, Bekker and van Mens-Verhulst, 2007). These sex differences are observed, not only in the U.S., but are also documented worldwide (Seedat et al., 2009). This sex disparity indicates a potential role for gonadal hormones in the etiology of anxiety and depressive disorders. In fact, studies have revealed that women are more likely to experience mood disturbances, anxiety, and depression during times of hormonal flux, such as puberty, menopause, perimenstrual and post-partum periods (Ahokas et al., 2001, Parker and Brotchie, 2004, Douma et al., 2005, Solomon and Herman, 2009). While hormonal flux in females appears to increase the likelihood of experiencing mood disturbances, clinical and preclinical studies in males suggest that testosterone yields protective benefits against anxiety and depression.
cat t.

climber
california
Aug 24, 2015 - 01:26pm PT
Elcapinyoazz (lol), I'm just gonna quote myself, because I don't know if you saw it the first time, and I really don't think depression or anxiety is what's stopping someone from climbing--more likely it motivates them--
(2) I've heard a lot of people throw around the idea that climbers are a bit nuts, or that they're drawn to the wilderness because they have trouble settling down like a "normal" person. Climbing....calms us down. I suspect many of us are afflicted with that existential anxiety that can't seem to be assuaged by a paycheck, and learning to deal with uncertainty and fear while adventure climbing does a lot to help diffuse the anxiety about life :)
viv.r.e

climber
Sacramento
Aug 24, 2015 - 01:32pm PT
Exactly, "likely" means incidence of a disorder, not average level of mood or anxiety--although the incidence would impact the average.

Men are also 1.5X's more likely to suffer from Narcissistic Personality Disorder besides being 9Xs more likely to commit homicide ;P

The same article showed that testosterone had little effect on men's depression/anxiety, and also stated that:

The high number of relevant publications also indicates that it is a hot topic of interest. However, quantity is not quality and currently, despite numerous publications it is very difficult to conclude how testosterone affects cognitions and emotions...But based on our humble experience, the negative results will probably be more common than the published positive ones. And if the contradictory published findings are added, the picture gets even more confusing.

Also, if climbers are 1-2% of the population (about 500,000 in the US) and we can probably all agree it's a self-selecting population, then discussing averages might not even be that relevant.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 24, 2015 - 01:43pm PT
I think there is a very complex social interaction / recognition / ego component to it.

No doubt, but I suspect you think it's a larger component then is suggested by this statement. And you may be right for a lot of folks, particularly these days where you have to a 'developer' and 'community service' into the mix.

take away the reporting aspect of first ascents. Let's pretend for a moment that we can't report, or there is no means of reporting or recording any first ascents at all. Who would still be out there establishing them?

I would, and I can honestly say not a single FA of mine was driven by a thirst for recognition - they have all been a result of seeing something that caught my eye and getting entirely obsessed about it. And I've never put up a route with any regard to the possibility anyone else may be interested in climbing it. Some we never even reported and were bolted, uprated, and claimed as an FA and renamed as a result. Happens and someone else got to have an FA experience on it. For that matter I asked that my more recent FAs be left out of a new guidebook (the author declined).

Not really a driver for me though I'm sure the drivers and impetus for FAs vary widely across the board.

Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Aug 24, 2015 - 01:45pm PT
Ladies, there is no shortage of scientific backing on the idea that men are more "adventurous". You try, in vain, to poke holes in the research, but we could play this game all day.

Harris et al 2006:
The existence of gender differences in propensity to take
risks has been documented in a large number of questionnaire
and experimental studies. For example, a metaanalysis
by Byrnes, Miller, and Schafer (1999) reviewed
over 150 papers on gender differences in risk perception.
They concluded that the literature “clearly” indicated that
“male participants are more likely to take risks than female
participants” (p. 377).

Rahmani 2012:

Male students showed significantly higher scores on subscales of thrill and adventure seeking, disinhibition and boredom susceptibility than female students.

Cross et al 2013:

Men score higher than women on measures of sensation-seeking, defined as a willingness to engage in novel or intense activities.


Then again, them Black Friday and after-xmas sales at Neiman Marcus DO seem a riotous adventure and nary a man to be seen (aside from a few of our aforementioned metro snags and sad-sack married shopping bag caddies).
cat t.

climber
california
Aug 24, 2015 - 01:56pm PT
I like these questions. I think there are extremely varied answers for different people.

Happens and someone else got to have an FA experience on it.
The phrase "FA experience" is a great one. Healyje, I don't know you beyond this thread, but from what you're saying I bet you would be utterly unconcerned if someone told you they did one of your unreported FAs before you. Trying to own the rock isn't really the point. Exploring the rock is the point.

It's almost like we've gone full circle in terms of climbing style over the generations: from "conquer-siege the mountain (in the name of your country) by any means necessary!!" to "climb quickly with grace and clean gear" to "beat that sport climb into submission (in the name of your sponsor) by any means necessary!!"

I've noticed a lot of my female friends are motivated by "proving someone wrong." I love these women, and I understand where that idea comes from, but I also think it's a toxic sort of motivation.
cat t.

climber
california
Aug 24, 2015 - 02:01pm PT
How would we climb if no one was watching, ever.
If we'd never even heard of climbing: we'd all be scrambling around on fourth class having picnics, probably? (And without noticing, considering scarier and scarier things fourth class?)

But I'm glad there are people bragging about doing more than that, or I may not've imagined it was possible.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 24, 2015 - 02:10pm PT
a lot do what we do in climbing comes from the ego's need for recognition

I'm certainly not going to sit here and argue that there isn't a component of that in my climbing. But on the other hand my parents said raising me as an infant before I could walk was a constant chore of getting me down from things and that continued on through out my childhood in suburban Boston and Chicago, I was constantly up trees and climbing on buildings before I was ever exposed to 'climbing' or even thought of it.

As a teen my bedroom had a deck off it with tree alongside of it that went two stories up and then a branch hovered over the roof. I was always taking it up to the roof and never thought twice about it. I did it again on a visit home after climbing for a year and ended up backing off the traverse to the roof thinking I must have been either a lot lighter or just stupid. Never did it again.
cat t.

climber
california
Aug 24, 2015 - 02:16pm PT
I did it again on a visit home after climbing for a year and ended up backing off the traverse to the roof thinking I must have been either a lot lighter or just stupid.

Hahaha I totally identify with this. The solid-seeming things I confidently climbed when I was a gangly teenager did not seem so solid when I returned to the ranch as an adult...

My father, recently: "I never wanted to chastise Caitlin when she was balance-beaming across the top of the swing set because I was afraid if I yelled at her she'd fall off." (That thing was literally rotting. I don't know how I'm alive.)

Competition and ego, are the fuel that fires the advancement of climbing.
I think this is true--but I also think that awareness of those things makes them a positive influence. "Competition" has a bit of a nasty connotation in my mind, but it needn't. Friendly competition is great. We advance society, knowledge, climbing, etc. by challenging each other--what we think, what we think is possible--

At least for me, the desire to suck less is not because I want to be better than anyone. It's because what the better people are doing looks really fun...
The Chief

climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
Aug 24, 2015 - 02:17pm PT
I worked on a photo shoot with her years ago in Red Rocks, and the DP wanted her on a particular route for the shot. The first bolt was about twenty feet off the deck, she balked at clipping it and asked me to do it for her. So I soloed up to it in my tennies and clipped her rope through it for her. Only time I ever climbed with her, if you wanna call it that.

True story.

Route and year or it never happened. I call bullshet. Seriously. I seen Bobbi highball stuff onsight that would make any grown modern day boulderer walk away shaking their heads.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Aug 24, 2015 - 02:23pm PT
Healyj,

Good thing there weren't any climbing gyms when you grew up or you would have instantly turned into a sport climbing pu$$y the moment your hands touched the plastic.
overwatch

climber
Aug 24, 2015 - 02:36pm PT
Metro snags and shopping bag caddies...HA! nice one pumpinleadintoyurdumper
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