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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Aug 13, 2015 - 11:22pm PT
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Crapped-on carp.
The sucker population on the Merced River above Lake McClure was successfully exterminated by the application of Rotenone, a non-selective piscicide. The trout population had to be enhanced, protected, etc.
As this kind of agent is quickly biodegradable and has few and limited side effects, it can have beneficial uses. It may seem cruel to some to find thousands of fish died in this and other instances, but it was, in my understanding, F&G policy to manage trout streams and other bodies of water in this way.
The case here is much, much different. Just from what I have read here, it is pretty easy to see that greed is responsible, start to finish. There was never any concern for the downstream fish population EVER and now there is.
Human nature just baffles me, sometimes, but I realize this old attitude may be changing and I hope that is true. But history can be put aside easily if there is enough money changing hands.
I hope future generations realize the earnest intent of at least some responsible citizens, and not simply condemn the mistakes of the feds, the mine operators, and the city fathers. Good guys exist in the gov't, but they have to have some clout and support.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Aug 14, 2015 - 06:48am PT
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Speaking of personal attacks...
Edward, noting a person is angry and offers no solutions is an observation, not a personal attack.
Good day, sir, now, back to the river....
A law from 1872 still in effect?
The permissive General Mining Law of 1872, written to encourage mining, is still in force even though the pick, shovel and pan were long ago replaced by giant earthmovers that gouge open pits more than a mile across and thousands of feet deep. Billions of gallons of water are consumed in production, pumped through miles of vulnerable pipelines and stored in open pits of acidifying waste; huge swaths of land are destroyed in the wake of closed, abandoned and inadequately remediated mines.
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couchmaster
climber
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Aug 21, 2015 - 08:45pm PT
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Holy crap, the Navahos get screwed. Again. Unfrikkanbelievable. http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2015/08/epa_angers_navajos_by_sending_water_for_their_livestock_in_filthy_oil_drums.html
"Navajo Nation president Russell Begaye’s finger came up brown and oily after he ran it inside the spigot of a water tank, one of nine delivered by an EPA contractor to Shiprock, New Mexico, in the aftermath of the accident that sent orange mining waste down the Animas and San Juan rivers.
“This is what they expect our animals to drink and to use this and pollute our farmland, our canals?” said Mr. Begaye in video posted Wednesday on his Facebook page.
“This is totally unacceptable. How can anybody give water from a tank like this that was clearly an oil tank and expect us to drink it, our animals to drink it? And to contaminate our soil with this?” said Mr. Begaye. “It’s just wrong. Clearly, it’s wrong.”"
(lazy and/or incompetent contractor)
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Aug 22, 2015 - 01:28am PT
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I call BS on that story. Begaye has (and maybe rightfully so) shown much animosity towards the EPA. The American Thinker is a bully pulpit for right wingers. The washington times is a bully pulpit for right wingers. Advancing Colorado is a bully pulpit for right wingers. The article doesn't even pretend to be journalism. There are absolutely no links to any sources that could be considered credible.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Aug 22, 2015 - 07:53am PT
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HealyJ, this is a load of carp: "The problem here, though, isn't the EPA's screw-up, it's antiquated mining laws which have always favored resource extraction and were explicitly written to allow the industry to abandon mines (and their associated waste).
It's all about the money. If the mining industry had to actually mine with some care about the environment or remediate mining sites after the extraction was done then lots of mines, and the business in general, wouldn't be nearly as profitable. The abandonment and remediation 'laws' are all about rape it and leave it for someone else to deal with."
The modern mining (hardrock anyway, I haven't done much in coal) is highly regulated and subject to the same laws as the rest of industry.
The 1872 Mining Law has only to do with land, staking claims, etc. There has been a moratorium on patents (buying private mineral claims from the gov't) since the 1990's.
Mines are heavily permitted and regulated. They are required to post reclamation bonds with the state they operate in. They are required to have reclamation permits, air permits (under the Clean Air Act), stormwater permits (Clean Water Act), discharge permits (Clean Water Act), pollution prevention plans, 404 permits for impoundments and dams (Clean Water Act - given by the Army Corp of engineers).
So this garbage about updating the 1872 mining law is spouted by people who don't know current law and probably don't care.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Aug 22, 2015 - 08:42am PT
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The EPA didn't have any 'role' in the recent spill beyond hiring and oversight of the contractors who were attempting to pipe the collapsed entrance for draining. Should they have stopped and thought it through more in light of the the retired engineer's editorial? Quite possibly, but once the project wheels and contracts are in motion - whether in government or private enterprise - people are loathe to postpone the work.
Clueless!
The EPA would have been solely responsible for designing,supervising and inspecting the sequence of work and the progress.
The contractor just performed per the contract documents and as directed. If he hadn't the finger pointing would have begun already.
Digging a hole in a retaining structure with an UNKNOWN! hydraulic head behind it is just criminally negligent. (or would be criminal except for sovereign immunity)
Mining and reclamation laws have nothing to do with this incident.
The contamination happened over 100 years ago.
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 22, 2015 - 08:58am PT
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The EPA didn't have any 'role' in the recent spill beyond hiring and oversight of the contractors who were attempting to pipe the collapsed entrance for draining.
Amazing how some things will NEVER change. Too Funnneee I tell ya.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Aug 22, 2015 - 09:10am PT
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So the EPA did have prior knowledge that this could occur. In private industry we can go to jail for this.
"Conditions may exist that could result in a blow-out of the blockages and cause a release of large volumes of contaminated mine waters and sediment from inside the mine, which contain concentrated heavy metals," the task order received by the EPA says."
http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_28685398/gold-king-mine-epa-was-told-danger-blowout
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Aug 22, 2015 - 09:13am PT
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No I'm saying Begaye has shown animosity toward the EPA and is posturing in advance of a lawsuit that will likely end up with a huge settlement. And I'm saying that the VERY white men associated with American Thinker, Advancing Colorado, and the Washington Times are lying.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Aug 22, 2015 - 09:37am PT
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That's just the initial work order. A preliminary outline.
There should also be a full set of plans and specifications .
The specification book is typically 300-1000 pages long and would include full geotechnical (soil)survey reports as an appendix.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Aug 25, 2015 - 07:16pm PT
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Trump says those dead fish are total losers. The fish he knows - and he knows all the best fish - are living in the Roaring Fork in Aspen, doing really, really well. Just tremendous. Amazing. Huge. The Best.
I was amused, but not surprised, that the GOP party line was that that spill was a causus belli to attack and destroy the EPA. Their logic was that since the EPA "got" to destroy the environment, then big corporations should be able to do the same. Why should a government agency have an unfair advantage against, say, the Koch brothers?
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Aug 25, 2015 - 07:20pm PT
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Tom, deep thinking is not a GOP priority.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 25, 2015 - 10:02pm PT
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I was amused, but not surprised, that the GOP party line was that that spill was a causus belli to attack and destroy the EPA.
I am amused, but not surprised, that the Democrats excuse the EPA for activities that would lead to criminal convictions if done under the auspices of private parties. The contamination they unleashed was a foreseeable consequence of activities the EPA directed. Why do they get a pass, when private parties don't even get a mens rea defense?
The executive branch under this administration is the most lawless, by far, of my lifetime, and I was an adult during the Nixon administration, so that's saying a lot.
John
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Aug 26, 2015 - 01:26am PT
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The executive branch under this administration is the most lawless, by far, of my lifetime, and I was an adult during the Nixon administration, so that's saying a lot. It does say a lot. About you. And it's not flattering.
The contamination they unleashed was a foreseeable consequence of activities the EPA directed. Yes, in the same way that a backfire lit by the FS while fighting a blaze that was started by a known arsonist could have unintended consequences and burn down a home. The bad deed was already done and the EPA was trying to put the fire out.
Remember, the mines were already leaking. They were plugged, stopping 500 gallons/min from flowing out. Then they were plugged even higher and that is the plug that failed. the amount they prevented from entering the animas through cement creek is greater than if they hadn't acted at all.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 24, 2015 - 02:16pm PT
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My guess was 2mm to do what they should have been doing 10 years ago, so I wasn't too far off.
And which was met with endless local resistance 10 years ago. Pretty simple, it needed to have been designated a superfund site over local objections.
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