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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 4, 2015 - 12:05pm PT
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I recently started coiling ropes with the method shown below. It saves having to flake the rope, necessary with the doubled butterfly I've been using. Cool technique, that I wish I'd known earlier :)
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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overwatch
climber
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I have tried both ways and for me personally it doesn't save enough time to mess with. it takes longer to coil it initially and it doesn't take that long to flake it out from a traditional butterfly coil. that's just me though
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Always nice to have your sh#t together. I like it.
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Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
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The real question: did his buddy drag the rope through the poison oak bush on pitch two?
Hilarity ensues.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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The traditional loop coil stacks the rope even better.
The guy in the video misrepresents it.
If he had read Basic Rockcraft, Royal says not to fight the figure eights.
They are what makes it stack. And you don't add twists.
Still helpful to flake the rope for hard leads, though.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Ok I left out the snark. But
Seems to me that the rope bucket, and a careful flaking before climbing is K.I.S.
Keep It Simple (Stupid.)
When the storms come and the wind blows at fierce pace,
Stuff that cord in haste and make tracks to be safe from thunder and lightning .
Then sure it needs to be flaked out before using allowing for inspection by feel and sight.
Re inventing, sharing 'pro'tricks, is fine, but
It seems that in climbing, the K. I. S. Methods are safe and often the best.
Edit: as per the following post, coil around the knees, in a sitting position,knees high,
Feet together space between, the knees can keep the coils tight.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Ha Ha Ha..... only noobs use their necks for doing the coil.......
A loong time ago, a Scotsman taught me how to do that same coil using only your hands..... "what if that bloody rope is all wet with slush and mud on it? You get all that crap dripping down your back.... "
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Noobs at work:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Noob rope-coiling at 4:42.
Another noob, equally clueless:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
The gear editor of Climbing Magazine has no idea:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Etc, etc, etc.
Now it would be noobish to coil a wet and/or muddy rope over your neck, and that's why most climbers have somehow managed to learn more than one way to coil their ropes.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Thanks, that was cool of freddy and Uli.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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I coil on my neck because I've found that belaying and rope management can significantly add to my fatigue in a long day. Anything to shave off a little energy consumption. Who cares about getting dirty? Pansy Scottish apparently. There. I said it. I'm a racist.
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Daphne
Trad climber
Northern California
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Necks also work if your hands are small.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Mar 14, 2016 - 08:35pm PT
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I'm going to try the method kunlun shared now. I've used my neck forever- but I'm still lazy and start with 2 ends to go faster, even though I definitely dislike rope tangling on itself or needing to reflake.
Funny enough what reminded me of this thread, and considering trying it, was something I saw while shopping for some music gear:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Pretty clear demo showing the twisting consequences of regular mountaineer's coil which I've never used.
Has anyone used this "over under" thing with mountaineers coil to still look old-fashioned manly while avoiding rope twisting?
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WyoRockMan
climber
Grizzlyville, WY
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Mar 14, 2016 - 10:06pm PT
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I could never get the mountaineer coil to not make a mess.
(Maybe I should practice instead of fartin' around on the tacotube.)
but I do like Mike's how-to:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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BigB
Trad climber
Red Rock
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Mar 15, 2016 - 06:07am PT
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Mikes soooo RAD!
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Mar 15, 2016 - 06:18am PT
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You guys probably fold your tent too. Lol
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Capt.
climber
some eastside hovel
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Mar 15, 2016 - 06:29am PT
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Escopeta-Nice, Minor Threat. Excellent album to boot!! :-D
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Mar 15, 2016 - 06:35am PT
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Well played Cap'n
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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Mar 15, 2016 - 08:33am PT
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Why doesn't the guy in the OP video deploy the rope at the end to show that it will without tangling?
I like the gal from climbing magazine the best although she wraps the rope with the tails way too many times. I like the idea of starting from the middle to work the kinks out the end.
I kind of like warble hairs double Mountaineer coil I will have to try that. As far as overundering I have worked with Stage production companies that went ape sh#t if you use the over under on the cables. they wanted you to run all the Kinks out the end of the cable each time it was coiled.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Mar 15, 2016 - 03:04pm PT
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How's that rope bag work on the side of a steep cliff there Escopeta?
That's where most of us climb y'know.
Feel the Bern
Not sure I understand the question there Warbler? It always worked on the side of the steep cliffs I was familiar with?
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Mar 15, 2016 - 03:26pm PT
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I thought this thread needed some pictures going forward
this old thing is awesome for doubles (2 Ropes, flaked in, not twisted into coils)
I'll clip it in to a point 'cause Im still playin' in steep rubble,
` at the base of my overhanging choss`
Edit,
Mostly I use a single 60m 10.5, and coil it either way,
When I use the 'standard ' coil I let the twists fall as they may,
then go with the direction of the twist, folding the rope into a ball, and stuff it into the bottom of the pack.
azs for the other way to carry a rope Lashed to ones back,
the second's or third's and split the rest of the gear
as unevenly as I need to, depending on how lame my ankle feels.
I only bag the double ropes - not twins - 2, 60m, 8.8 mm, that is skinny enough.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Mar 15, 2016 - 03:31pm PT
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I understand the less is more philosophy, but I'm still not following your objection.
I used a rope bag like the one pictured through 20 or so years of climbing, in all manner of terrain from easy approaches and relatively flat ground to slogs that end with adventure climbing.
The bag worked for me and it was nice to toss in a pack or wear on your back directly. It protected the rope from wear, dirt, sand (josh) and pine sap.
Sure, I would mountaineer loop or butterfly to down-climb on occasion but when I got back to my stuff, I simply flaked the rope out on the mat, rolled it up and it was ready to roll.
It also makes for an overall smaller, more compact package than any other method.
So there.
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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Mar 15, 2016 - 04:27pm PT
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A mountaineer's coil, especially double, twists nicely into a pack sized ball, that butterfly rig doesn't fold that well..
I use a snake charmer twisting technique that allows the butterfly coil or any coil for that matter to adequately fill any space.
I like your double Mountaineer coil though I'm going to try that
vvvvvvvv my take is that you just start at the middle and make a Mountaineers coil on either side of the middle point, each coil finished as you would a normal Mountaineers coil
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Mar 15, 2016 - 04:42pm PT
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Kevin,
Care to demonstrate or make a description of how that double mountaineer's is done? It does sound like a winner or at least something I'd like to try.
Arne
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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Mar 15, 2016 - 11:37pm PT
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You could do this by starting in the middle of the rope of course, but if it's flaked with one end on top, it's easier/quicker to coil to the middle from that end.
Makes sense to me, thanks
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David C
Trad climber
UK
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Mar 16, 2016 - 01:54am PT
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Many, many ways to coil a rope, but most people I know use the method shown in the OP's video.
There are several reasons for this, but I think it comes down to us (in the UK) using double ropes >90% of the time.
At the top you will be left with a big fat pile of 120m of rope, and if you are going to coil from both ends or the middle you will have to separate both ropes, then coil. With the OP's method you just take the second's ends and start coiling. With each climber coiling one rope simultaneously and at the about the same speed. Because you have one hand firmly holding the coils, and the other hand free, you can easily sort things out, such as a loop catching on a tree root.
A lot of our cliffs are sea cliffs, so at the base you really don't want to be flaking the rope out, let along two ropes, as there will be no space.
The REALLY important bit is what you do when you uncoil the rope. Take it off your back, separate the ends THEN place it carefully on the ground, or hang from sling. It is critical that you carefully separate the ends all the way back to the first coil. This is because, unlike the coils, the ends will be twisted around each other when you finished the coils off by taking turns around the main coils. This sounds more complex than it is. You just remove the finishing turns, grab ONE rope as it comes off the top of the main coils and pull to separate it from the other. If you try the method, and find you still need to flake the rope out, it is probably because you are not doing this bit right.
It also works well in the mountains. Once you get to the first rap, you just carefully separate the ends, tie them together through the chains and throw the coils down the mountain. you don't even need to place the ropes on the ground whilst doing this, they will either be in your hand (as you separate the ends) or around your neck (as you tie the ropes together through the chains).
When you finish rapping, coiling from one end also has an advantage: one person coils as the other pulls. This reduces the mess on the ground / in the sea when the rope is pulled.
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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Mar 16, 2016 - 08:00am PT
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since the Revival of this thread I decided to dust that original posters technique off and try it again and although it is a little strange getting used to coiling it that way I do see the advantage and it does come right out of a pile at least laying on my perfectly flat floor
Edit;
doing it as fast as he does would take some major practice
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Mar 16, 2016 - 10:33am PT
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I changed over to the backpack-style coil years ago because I think it adds fewer twists to the rope. Mostly I flake the rope in my hand, which I can do almost as fast as the OP's method, but after learning the OP's method a year or two ago I sometimes use it too, mostly just for fun. Since I'm one of the relatively rare American half-rope users, I do things the way David mentions.
A mountaineer's coil can also be done around the neck and a hand and is probably the fastest way to coil a single rope. Mike Barter has a cool extra rope flip around an elbow, but other than being fun to watch I can't for the life of me figure out what use it is.
The rope will feed fine out of a mountaineer's coil if the coil can be located directly underneath the belayer's brake hand, so that the rope rises straight up out of the coil. Problems happen when the coil is off to the side and the rope has to be dragged out of it laterally.
The backpack-style coil can be folded in half for carrying inside a pack and takes up about the same amount of space as a folded mountaineer's coil. Practically speaking it takes less space, since the folded coil leaves a "doughnut hole" that has to be filled to use the remaining space effectively.
The mountaineer's coil is easier to carry with a small summit pack that doesn't have good opportunities for strapping the rope on the outside or putting it under a lid.
Scrambling with a backpack-style coil is more pleasant than with a mountaineer's coil, which unless it is very tight will swing forward and block one's view.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Mar 16, 2016 - 09:50pm PT
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You should give it a try!
I will!
edit-what about over & under wraps? Up thread was mentioned the use of that technique by stage hands wrapping cable. We use it about half the time- depends on the experience of our stage crew. Wouldn't that make a mountaineers coil feed out easier and eliminate these twists mentioned?
Arne
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Mar 16, 2016 - 10:10pm PT
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I like the idea of the double mountaineers coil for carrying an injured partner backpack style, luckily I've never had to use it.
I tend to coil ropes of all types and long extensions cords the same way. A mountaineers coil just has too much tendency to put twists in the rope for my liking.
I also don't like coiling around my neck. Not only for wet ropes but just the aluminum dust, dirt, etc. or on a hot day I don't want to wear a scarf of rope on my neck even for 2 minutes.
I'll give the OP video a try but see if I can modify it for hands only.
Like building an anchor there's a wide latitude for personal preference.
The over under is good for shorter cables and is prolly the best for longevity of audio cables. But when I butterfly coil a long rope or cord I do almost full outstretched arm lengths. So I know each loop is almost 6 feet. So it's quicker for long ropes. And I can take say 10 loops off the coil and drop that knowing it's just under 60 feet if I'm setting up a top rope for example.
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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Mar 17, 2016 - 07:22am PT
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With 4/0 power cable the over under is almost mandatory
Fet
I don't like the neck thing either I would be interested in what you come up with that doesn't involve the neck. I guess with big hands you could just hold it but that negates the speed effect a little I would think.
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