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Chris McNamara
SuperTopo staff member
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 27, 2015 - 11:46am PT
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I wanted to let you all know that there is an individual who goes by the name Mark Winans (we don't know if that is his real name) who has decided to take censorship on the forum into their own hands. This person has such a strong hatred for one particular member, that he has started contacting advertisers to convince them to blacklist SuperTopo.
It disturbs us that Mr. Winans has not cited a single post they feel is inappropriate, and the recent login he refers to has not generated any complaint from members to date.
To date, Mr. Winans has contacted more than half a dozen advertisers, claiming that SuperTopo "members promote violence against other Americans." And, that the "level of hatred expressed on this site against Latinos and Muslims specifically is absolutely unacceptable in the United States of America."
Here is an example of a recent communication Mr. Winans sent to us:
Like I said yesterday, for every Ron Anderson comment I am sending a boycott letter to one of your advertisers. Today it was Century Link for the first one. He's got several more comments(Surprise!), so I will need to send out several more boycott letters to your advertisers. Attached please find my letter to your sponsors. July 23, 2015
Denver,CO
Dear Sirs and Madams-
I would like you to know that you are advertising on a website whose members promote violence against other Americans. The level of hatred expressed on this site against Latinos and Muslims specifically is absolutely unacceptable in the United States of America. Specifically, I am talking about www.supertopo.com and its forum. While I of course believe in free speech in our great nation, I see no reason why a commercial platform needs to give its members a vehicle to express what can only be described as disgusting hate speech. Let them get their own website if they want to profess their constant hatred of fellow American citizens. You may not know this, but www.supertopo.com is a website that is oriented towards rock climbers in general, and rock climbers with a connection to Yosemite National Park in particular. It is very influential among a small but hardcore group of outdoor enthusiasts. Please be aware that as long as you continue to advertise onwww.supertopo.com, I will boycott your products and services, and will ask all my friends and acquaintances who rock-climb, run, kayak, mountaineer, hike, bike, backpack to join me in boycotting your company, and will ask them to ask all of their friends in joining me. Thank you for your consideration.
Mark Winans
Denver, CO
We consider these claims slander, and we find the idea of caving in to a vigilante's attempt to extort us into embracing their individual standard for moderation to be distasteful.
But, I need to note that this individual is succeeding in convincing advertisers to blacklist SuperTopo, and that presents a real threat to the long-term viability of continued operation of this site.
We look into every complaint about inappropriate posts, but we have to date not received a single complaint about posts from the recent login Mr. Winans seems fixated on (we believe Mr. Winans is likely referring to the relatively new member Rdog, but we are not sure as he's never clarified which member or what specific posts he feels are inappropriate). This appears to us to be a personal beef of Mr. Winans, which is, to date, not supported by any other member complaints regarding inappropriate content.
What are your thoughts?
Is this how censorship and moderation should work on this site?
Is this an act of courageous consumer activism? Or, an arrogant attempt to impose one person's censorship standards on a community? Or, something else.
Mr. Winans has told us that he reads the forum every day for 10+ years, but is not a member. It seems likely he will read your comments.
Please share your thoughts.
Chris
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bobinc
Trad climber
Portland, Or
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Jul 27, 2015 - 11:51am PT
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No idea who this 'person' is.
As far as I can tell, Ron A seems to be a fairly normal poster on the ST, if by 'normal' you mean a white, mid-50s mostly former climber with too much time on his hands.
It seems in his more recent STopo incarnation, he's tried to tread a less controversial line. Perhaps the 'Winans' entity is responding to posts from further back.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jul 27, 2015 - 12:00pm PT
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There are definitely posts by certain individuals which I find personally distasteful, but as a whole, the community recognizes these things for what they are. We call our own members on their crap, and the overwhelming majority of Supertopo members are tolerant and accepting.
In the case of Latinos, the rants are usually directed against illegal immigrants, not American citizens. Some of these posts are still uninformed and distasteful, and fear based, but not directed against American citizens.
Vigilante censorship? Lame.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Jul 27, 2015 - 12:07pm PT
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I would like you to know that you are advertising on a website whose members promote violence against other Americans. The level of hatred expressed on this site against Latinos and Muslims specifically is absolutely unacceptable in the United States of America. Specifically, I am talking about www.supertopo.com and its forum. While I of course believe in free speech in our great nation, I see no reason why a commercial platform needs to give its members a vehicle to express what can only be described as disgusting hate speech. Let them get their own website if they want to profess their constant hatred of fellow American citizens.
Although this is apparently directed towards Ron Anderson's comments, this statement broad brushes the entire forum as producing hate speech and nothing could be further from the truth. If "he's" been following these discussions, then "he" also knows that many are in opposition to Ron's views.
This is a form of coercion, and I think "Mark" is missing the whole point of having open discussions about various topics without censorship. I agree with Survival. What to do about the situation is another question though.
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Jul 27, 2015 - 12:17pm PT
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Kind of a bullshit approach, but honestly, I'm surprised this is even a question. This forum was once a valuable resource, particularly for over seas climbers looking for up to date info to supplement your books. That function exists elsewhere now and I can't imagine the cost of having your brands associated w the various lone wolves out there is worth the minimal benefit of increased sales. Personally, I'd have cut the forum about 3 years ago.
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overwatch
climber
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Jul 27, 2015 - 12:20pm PT
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of course they're going to say they are not a member, duh. It could be one of any number of posters because the all- knowing one has ruffled many feathers.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jul 27, 2015 - 12:23pm PT
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While I think the occasional post is distasteful, it is absurd to characterize ANY post as promoting violence against any defined group.
It's a lie.
Chris, I'd ask if there was anything individual members could do to counter this inappropriate and offensive attack against the site?
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overwatch
climber
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Jul 27, 2015 - 12:26pm PT
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I agree and then deal with whatever loss of advertisers that may happen if and when it happens
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jul 27, 2015 - 12:28pm PT
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Perhaps "Mark Winans" is another alias for that kiwi guy who seems to enjoy attacking the supertopo forum.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jul 27, 2015 - 12:29pm PT
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"Progressives" are always the first to call for censorship. When they can't produce rational defenses of their claims they always react by trying to silence any view not deemed politically correct.
When they have no power they caterwaul like small brats.
Where they have had complete power they march disinters off to re-education camps or worse.
As I understand it advertisers pay for traffic. If this becomes just another boring pc dumbed down site, you'll see that much reduced.
When this type of coercion is surrendered to it only encourages more of the same. Let it get started and it will never end.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jul 27, 2015 - 12:31pm PT
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Chris, this is your business, and your site, so I'll understand whatever decision you make, but I'll express my opinion nonetheless. The relative freedom to express opinions on this site - whether on climbing topics or elsewhere - makes it particularly valuable. The whining of this particular individual mirrors the attack on diverse opinions I see elsewhere in society generally.
I will happily contact any advertiser and tell them that the diversity of opinion, and our relative freedom of expression, keeps me on this site rather than on others. It would help me to know each communication "Winans" sends, however, so that I can see if any advertisers act with spinelessness or intolerance of true diversity of viewpoints, and treat them accordingly.
John
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jul 27, 2015 - 12:32pm PT
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Ron, while we may disagree with some things you write, I DO NOT agree with you leaving the site. You also make valuable contributions, and have unique insights to share.
I feel strongly about you not leaving, and the blackmail not working. If it does, it is only the first in a series that will happen. If it stops here, then it is stopped.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Jul 27, 2015 - 12:36pm PT
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But, I need to note that this individual is succeeding in convincing advertisers to blacklist SuperTopo, and that presents a real threat to the long-term viability of continued operation of this site.
It sounds like ignoring "Mark" has already been tried.
And Clint, I suppose it could be the "Kiwi", but given his recent incarceration it seems unlikely as his MO seems unchanged.
Seems to me there are a number of options;
1) Stay the course (and try to convince Mark to leave the site alone).
2) More heavily filter the Forum's discussions
3) Get rid of the Forum
4) Get rid of the Forum except all climbing related topics.
missing any?
edit; John E had a good one on previous page
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couchmaster
climber
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Jul 27, 2015 - 12:36pm PT
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Wow, Mr Winans clearly doesn't visit any news sites that allow for comments. Those typically get so bad that the kindest one of the bunch could often be considered the worst I've seen on Supertopo. If a bad ST post is a 3, I often see 8 and 9's on news sites, it's embarrassing to read some of them are so bad. Perhaps as news sites, in Mr Whinners views, they are allowed to have free speech but as climbers we are not allowed the same?
I've been here for a long time, and although I've seen some interesting things: people have called each other "Nazi", "Racist", "Libtard" or any number of slurs during a passionate discourse on a topic, I have not seen this alleged racism.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jul 27, 2015 - 12:37pm PT
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So in Crankase's view opinions need a sanctioning body.
Proved my point.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jul 27, 2015 - 12:39pm PT
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TGT takes it straight to "progressives" and re-education camps, sheesh, what a pre-school.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jul 27, 2015 - 12:39pm PT
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Many of Rpn's comments go way, way, way beyond what any reasonable person of any political party would consider politically incorrect.
Crankster, many reasonable people of both major political parties find political "correctness" or "incorrectness" absurd, anti-intellectual, and violative of the free exchange of ideas. When I first heard the term - in the late 1970's - it was offered in dirision. It ("politically correct") denoted an opinion that did not deviate from predictable left-of-center views, and therefore offered nothing new to the discussion.
John
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Jul 27, 2015 - 12:40pm PT
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He's full of crap Chris. But I get your point that you might not be able to ignore him.
If you will allow it, I would be willing to compose a letter/email for me to send to your advertisers; me as an individual consumer and Supertopo forum user.
My letter would be polite and professional. The gist of the letter would be that I too am a gear user/purchaser and I too am a Supertopo forum member. I would emphasize to your advertisers that, in my opinion, this "Mark" guy is an anonymous coward who is inventing tales designed to hurt Supertopo. I would make it clear that Supertopo is a great site for vigorous discussion by climbers of topics of interest to them.
Such a letter would ask them to completely disregard this anonymous and untrue set of claims.
I would use my real name and address to each advertiser and invite them to contact me to verify that I am real.
I will not do this, however, unless you are OK with it; it is your site (thank you by the way) and they are your advertisers.
Feel free to contact me privately (or here) if you are OK with me taking this step.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jul 27, 2015 - 12:42pm PT
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Chris, which advertisers acquiesced to Winans' request to boycott ST?
Thanks.
John
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Jul 27, 2015 - 12:43pm PT
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I wholeheartedly agree with this comment by JEleazarian:
The relative freedom to express opinions on this site - whether on climbing topics or elsewhere - makes it particularly valuable.
Yes, exactly.
And it looks like John posted with a mirror of my idea before I finished typing my own version of it.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jul 27, 2015 - 12:50pm PT
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I agree with the general sentiment of all who have posted thusfar. This kind of tactic goes way beyond some of the slimiest manipulations I've observed at this forum to get someone booted.
""Progressives" are always the first to call for censorship."
As usual, TGT conflates this with 'progressives'. Your lameness is showing, TGT...zip it back up.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jul 27, 2015 - 12:54pm PT
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Ron, knock it off. You've got most of us (including, for the most part, crankster) in your camp on this one, in spite of your incredible glass house irony of your past history with those here you don't like.
Think about this like the way McCain reacted to Trump's comments. Take the high road, keep your mouth shut, and let the other as#@&%e continue to make themself look like an as#@&%e.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Jul 27, 2015 - 12:55pm PT
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Mtnyoung said;
If you will allow it, I would be willing to compose a letter/email for me to send to your advertisers; me as an individual consumer and Supertopo forum user.
My letter would be polite and professional. The gist of the letter would be that I too am a gear user/purchaser and I too am a Supertopo forum member. I would emphasize to your advertisers that, in my opinion, this "Mark" guy is an anonymous coward who is inventing tales designed to hurt Supertopo. I would make it clear that Supertopo is a great site for vigorous discussion by climbers of topics of interest to them.
Such a letter would ask them to completely disregard this anonymous and untrue set of claims.
I would use my real name and address to each advertiser and invite them to contact me to verify that I am real.
I will not do this, however, unless you are OK with it; it is your site (thank you by the way) and they are your advertisers.
Feel free to contact me privately (or here) if you are OK with me taking this step.
I would be willing to do this as well. I am a noob at this leading stuff and have learned much on and made new friends because of this site. This "guy" is just wrong and I have no problem giving back to this forum. If this is the way, so be it.
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jstan
climber
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Jul 27, 2015 - 01:05pm PT
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Maybe someone can help us here. This morning I was able to pull up a thread titled something like "as low as we can sink....."
It is gone now and it apparently bore on the events described here. That thread needs to be recovered as it bears directly on this thread.
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couchmaster
climber
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Jul 27, 2015 - 01:06pm PT
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Rdog noted: "One who has never divulged his real name, nor has EVER posted a single pic of himself, climbing or otherwise. So " Crankster",, would your ip addy match Winans?"
Haha! I could totally see that being the case, Cranksters anger towards both Ron and Werner is way over the top. Furthermore, the wording is similar between Winans and Crankster.
Any way to get both IP addresses? In either case, if I can be of any assistance Chris, please don't hesitate to ask.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 27, 2015 - 01:07pm PT
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I have to think your advertisers regularly get complaints from such cranks.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jul 27, 2015 - 01:08pm PT
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I would like you to know that you are advertising on a website whose members promote violence against other Americans. The level of hatred expressed on this site against Latinos and Muslims specifically is absolutely unacceptable in the United States of America. Specifically, I am talking about www.supertopo.com and its forum.
To my knowledge, there have been no posts on Supertopo -- by Ron Anderson or anyone else -- promoting violence against Americans.
Ron, and others, occasionally make posts expressing anti-Muslim feelings, but what the "Winans" letter writer does not mention in his letters to advertisers is that whenever such a post is made, the vast majority of responses are to castigate the poster for expressing ideas most of us find distasteful.
In fact, the tone of the overwhelming majority of posts made by Supertopo members is exactly the opposite of what "Mark Winans" says it is.
Please feel free to pass this comment on to any advertisers who are considering pulling their ads from Supertopo.
David Harris
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Jul 27, 2015 - 01:08pm PT
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What apogee said:
Ron, knock it off. You've got most of us (including, for the most part, crankster) in your camp on this one, in spite of your incredible glass house irony of your past history with those here you don't like.
Think about this like the way McCain reacted to Trump's comments. Take the high road, keep your mouth shut, and let the other as#@&%e continue to make themself look like an as#@&%e.
I agree word for word.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Jul 27, 2015 - 01:09pm PT
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Hey Chris,
You want mainstream advertising and visibility you need a better approach to moderating. Might even need an overhaul. You are doing great with OGL and though I'm sure traffic here is decent these might need to become separate entities. I love Supertopo but an early ~2000's messageboard with all the workarounds and issues with abuse as this may be a liability and not be something you want connected to your current projects.
Think of ST as your first climbing partner who is a stoner living in his parents basement. Some good memories but he's just going to ruin things if you bring him along to business meetings.
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Da-Veed
Big Wall climber
Bigfork
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Jul 27, 2015 - 01:15pm PT
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If Ron was banned why is he still posting here under another name?
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Jul 27, 2015 - 01:24pm PT
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Ron, I have taken note of who's said what.
This isn't your fight. Some jerk is using you as an excuse. Just leave it alone.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jul 27, 2015 - 01:26pm PT
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In a country whose young Latinos now routinely call each other "Niggah" on their Facebook posts, and whose police SEEM to shoot first and question later, this feller Winan is ultra-lightweight.
The more politically correct parts of the country become (or believe they are becoming), it seems there is an undertow of others who damn and curse foreigners for our collective woes.
Few have washed up here on the shores of ST Island, Skipper.
Stay the course.
This is just a squall, one of many you'll face, though you are right to bring it to the crew.
--the Aaargh-umentative Scupper Rat
Shame on you, Mark.
edit: mtnyoung is right, Rdog. Back the fook doon, there's a good boy.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jul 27, 2015 - 01:26pm PT
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Hard to imagine that any advertisers would take this seriously. It isn't
like they've branded the place like Gym Climbers.com Field of Dreams. A
cursory review of any of the cited threads would probably have them in
stitches or scratching their heads at the worst. I'm no lawyer but this
certainly seems to be some form of blackmail.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jul 27, 2015 - 01:30pm PT
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I find it hard to believe this guy has had any success causing advertisers to leave. One guy making baseless accusations? One guy on a vendetta against one poster who is not representative of the overall tone of the site?
Well whoever you are out there I wish you would stop. You are not solving any problem with your tactic, you are being destructive with no gain for anyone.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jul 27, 2015 - 01:46pm PT
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Since when does political incorrectness become hate speech? Ron's suggestion that we do not let any more Muslims into the country until we sort out who's already here might not be "politically correct," but I don't see the racism or hate in it. Given our first amendment rights Ron is way inside the envelope.
We better be careful, terms like politically correct sound pretty Orwellian to me. And screaming "hate speech" when it's not there is like crying wolf. When it really happens no one will listen, they've heard it to much already.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Jul 27, 2015 - 01:50pm PT
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If you don't believe the name, why would you believe the location? Why don't we assume the standard when this sort of thing happens?? Ron, have you turned down some amorous advances lately? :)
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 27, 2015 - 02:00pm PT
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Chris and all of the rest of you are giving this guy the attention he seeks. This thread shouldn't be here.
If an advertiser sees value here, they'd have to be born yesterday to take this guy seriously - fuk'em, let them go.
Otherwise, call the advertiser and stand up for yourself. Shouldn't be hard, your opponent is an anonymous loser.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jul 27, 2015 - 02:00pm PT
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The term politically correct is a polite euphemism for stick up the arse.
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canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
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Jul 27, 2015 - 02:08pm PT
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While I don't open any of the politard threads anymore, I am aware that generally they seemed to be full of the same people posting over and over, and arguing the same old stuff ad nauseum. As usual it's the "those threads" that are creating the dissent, and according to Chris, the potential negative impact to sponsors.
Rather than whine about a specific poster who is complaining to suppliers, why not just get rid of "those threads". No politics, no religion. Many forums have seen the wisdom of that, as those are the topics that seem to generate the majority of hate?
As to the complainer, he's exercising his right to contact sponsors. His opinion is a important as a sponsor is willing to make it. I'm not at all surprised that they are questioning their association with a forum that allows hate speech. What would you expect a corporation to do? Can't host a free for all and think that corporate America is going to co-sign.
The problem is not with the complainer, the problem is with the lack of moderation. If you don't want to have moderation, that's fine too, but then don't act all indignant that someone complained? I believe several people have suggested a separate forum for "no holds barred" discussions...you might ask how your sponsors would feel about that and see if it takes care of their concerns?
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Jul 27, 2015 - 02:10pm PT
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Supertopo is like a fine women if ur nice you get in!
this pic is for Mark Winans
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Jul 27, 2015 - 02:13pm PT
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While I consider members like TGT and ron to be angry racist old white men whoever this as#@&%e is just outdid them all with this tactic.
Perhaps a group effort is in order - form a letter for your advertisers and we will ALL sign it (stating whoever this asshat is it's complete bullshit). I'll happily include my real name as I'm sure everyone else would. Because if there is one thing for sure, as much as I use greasemonkey to get "rid" of guys like ron and tgt there's one big difference - those guys are at least not such a f*#king pussy to go anonymous like this POS.
And if your advertisers do pull out because of this lowlife maybe let us know which ones so we can let them know personally that we do not support their decision and they just lost another customer.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jul 27, 2015 - 02:15pm PT
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The problem is not with the complainer, the problem is with the lack of moderation.
Canyoncat, that statement succinctly states the nature of the disagreement, and I like your ability to focus on the real issue - namely the effect the format of this site has on advertisers.
That said, if I accept your position, I would conclude that if a free discussion offends a voluntary listener, I should limit the discussion to the inoffensive. Such a concept destroys the free exchange of ideas, leads to narrow-mindedness and "group think," and leads to the intellectual impoverishment of participants.
Of course, if the advertisers are too frightened of the offended to risk supporting a site that allows posters to state opinions making some readers uncomfortable, then I guess Chris really has no choice. Nonetheless, my knee-jerk support of free expression causes me to "make the same argument ad nauseum." To me the problem isn't the moderation, it's the intolerant readers.
John
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10b4me
Social climber
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Jul 27, 2015 - 02:16pm PT
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Mr. Winans has told us that he reads the forum every day for 10+ years, but is not a member. is he a climber?
Although I no longer climb, I would hate to see the site go away. There is good climbing history, and good climbing beta.
Don't want to say I told you so but, I told you so. Once you let the political threads dominate the forum, this is the result.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jul 27, 2015 - 02:18pm PT
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Yeah if one complainer can lose you a sponser..I'd think a bunch of supporters would get such wishy washies back.
Hell I'm gunna start writing non-sponsers and boycot them if they don't advertise on ST... ok..not really.. I'm too lazy to do something that dumb.
egads one moron is that effective.. weird.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Jul 27, 2015 - 02:20pm PT
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John,
You're batting 1000 today. What you said is exactly true:
Such a concept destroys the free exchange of ideas, leads to narrow-mindedness and "group think," and leads to the intellectual impoverishment of participants.
By NOT doing this, Supertopo remains different, it stays our of the "milk toast" website rut.
(Due respect to Dingus for using the word as intended, in context.)
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jul 27, 2015 - 02:32pm PT
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What a lame tactic.
I just ignore Ron Anderson's posts. You just need the self control to do it, because it's fun to watch a train wreck. Don't jeopardize the forum for everybody.
Come on Mark Winans whoever you are. Man up and just ignore the lame rants of any blowhards. Not just on SuperTopo but in life. Avoid the negative and seek out what makes you happy. You can do it.
Write back to the sponsors you wrote. Tell them you were wrong. That it's your responsibility to avoid what bothers you, it's no one else's. I guarantee you that's a better strategy and you'll feel better about yourself.
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canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
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Jul 27, 2015 - 02:42pm PT
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John, I don't disagree with you at all. I am however a realist, and in the real world, "sponsored" forums are answerable to their sponsors. That's just the way it is with corporations.
There is certainly a place for freedom of speech, but that may not include expecting companies to turn a blind eye (or deaf ear) to racism, religious intolerance, or hate speech. It's just not practical. I just don't engage, so none of it bothers me, but I work for a mega-corporation and they would never tolerate any of that in our workplace (we don't sponsor any forums...LOL). If I were in charge of advertising dollars, it's likely I'd pull the ads too. Who really wants to be associated with that? Seriously guys, stop thinking about through just your eyes as an individual and think of it through the eyes of say, Patagonia or REI?
Chris needs to decide which is more important, corporate $$$ or "freedom of speech". Doubt he gets he to have both, which is why he should be considering this (instead of complaining). But that's just my opinion from The Man and a cube rat.
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plund
Social climber
OD, MN
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Jul 27, 2015 - 02:45pm PT
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I coulda swore we had a Constitution & Bill of Rights in this country!
Stupid speech is protected. Racist speech is protected. Ignorant speech is protected. Dishonest speech is protected. Prejudiced speech is protected. Utterly inane speech that makes everyone dumber for hearing it is protected.
Pretty much everything BUT the old "yelling fire in a crowded theater" is protected; however, nowhere is "freedom from being offended" protected.
If you disagree, then disagree! If disgusted, then move along. Certainly, if ST is so bad, Mr Winans can boycott its sponsors, etc. But don't start slapping paint on the whole lot of us, or attacking CMac personally. That smacks of butthurt and taking one's sense of self-righteousness WAY too far.
I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend your right to say it. (cribbed / paraphrased from somewhere)
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 27, 2015 - 02:46pm PT
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Too funny.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jul 27, 2015 - 02:50pm PT
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"You are confusing the GOVT preventing someone from exercising their speech, vs. a private entity allowing them to do so on their privately owned platform."
This confusion runs rampant at this Forum.
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Ryan Evans
climber
Mammoth Lakes
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Jul 27, 2015 - 03:03pm PT
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Shoot him
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Jul 27, 2015 - 03:11pm PT
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I am with Mtnyoung and JElezarian. I am more than willing to send a personal letter to each of the site's sponsors. Let all the voices be heard. Not just one.
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Norton
Social climber
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Jul 27, 2015 - 03:17pm PT
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chris and rj
Just make sure this doesn't affect the naughty Russian slut ads or the Asian slut ads. Those are my favs.
Thanks your pal WTF.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jul 27, 2015 - 03:23pm PT
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So " Crankster",, would your ip addy match Winans?
Folks keep asking about the IP address for the Mark guy, but read the OP again--he's not a member of the forum!
Which, to me, seems really odd...
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jul 27, 2015 - 03:28pm PT
|
I just finished a little on-line shopping.
If you look for anything to buy on the internet, you'll get ads on here promoting what you just looked for.
This afternoon, after reading about Mr Winans, I clicked on a few of those ads.
Now, I'm looking forward to a new Opinel #8 and a Fenix LD 11 flashlight from Knifecenter, a grease filtering system and a lid for a saucepan from Katom Restaurant Supply, and some rechargeable li-on batteries and a charger from B & H Photo.
I'm sending cash to the advertisers - not e-mails.
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overwatch
climber
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Jul 27, 2015 - 03:33pm PT
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The ultimate, huh?
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Jul 27, 2015 - 03:35pm PT
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I say give em the boot, the raciest Rong Anderson, the anonymous Crankster who harasses people, Me who climbs to much, nuke em all till they glow...clean this place up and make it the kind of spot you can bring your kids instead of having to watch where you step.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jul 27, 2015 - 03:35pm PT
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CMAC,
As someone pointed out earlier, the claims are not slander. Here are the California jury instructions for a slander/defamation claim:
"[Name of plaintiff] claims that [name of defendant] harmed [him/her] by making [one or more of] the following statement(s): [list all claimed per se defamatory statement(s)]. To establish this claim, [name of plaintiff] must prove all of the following:
Liability
1. That [name of defendant] made [one or more of] the statement(s) to [a person/persons] other than [name of plaintiff];
2. That [this person/these people] reasonably understood that the statement(s) [was/were] about [name of plaintiff];
3. [That [this person/these people] reasonably understood the statement(s) to mean that [insert ground(s) for defamation per se, e.g., “[name of plaintiff] had committed a crime”]];
4. That [name of defendant] failed to use reasonable care to determine the truth or falsity of the statement(s)."
The letter suggests that member of this forum are guilty of certain conduct, but not that your site condones or approves that conduct. This isn't my area of practice, but it may trigger a claim for trade libel or intentional interference with prospective economic advantage. Regardless, I believe it may be worthwhile contacting your advertisers and advising them that your site is primarily one intended to promote and share climbing information. One avenue by which the site promotes information sharing is by means of its Forum. Given the diversity of the people who visit the site, the subject matter discussed on the Forum is not always climbing related. Rather than seek to censor those discussions, the Taco supports every members' First Amendment right to freedom of speech. Given the importance of our freedom of expression, some members may express opinions that others may find objectionable, etc, etc.
For the record, I'm 75% Latino. While some on this site have expressed opinions about issues important to Latinos, I certainly don't view those opinions as represented of the majority of the members or the site in general. People say what they're gonna to say, which is good because, after they've said it, I know the F- to stay away from them. Problem solved.
Good luck with this mess.
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apinguat
Trad climber
kingfield, me
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Jul 27, 2015 - 03:42pm PT
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Good idea Chaz.
I did similar off OLG reviews / links last night. I always worry that somehow that data isn't transmitted accurately.
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jonnyrig
climber
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Jul 27, 2015 - 03:43pm PT
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jul 27, 2015 - 03:45pm PT
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"Taking time out of life to personally contact a forum moderator/owner about a poster who you don't agree with politically...on a climbing forum, is the ultimate loser move."
FAKT.
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little Z
Trad climber
un cafetal en Naranjo
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Jul 27, 2015 - 03:46pm PT
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Hey Marky yer a big fat pussy !!!
Hey Marky yer a big fat dick !!!
(just want to show those advertisers that we don't discriminate here on the ST forum)
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Jul 27, 2015 - 04:10pm PT
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Oh wow I'm sorry cmac that's such a headache, but you know how humans are. Too bad this Mark guy doesn't realize just how like Ron he's behaving in his insular mental fiefdom.
This forum continues to be so entertaining it's why I come to the site :-) Some people just take it too seriously. I'm sorry - I don't know - I wish you (cmac) the best.
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Norton
Social climber
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Jul 27, 2015 - 04:31pm PT
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It's probably that anonymous coward dipshit crankpot cranknutcase crankloon who's always the biggest whiny bitch here .....
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John Duffield
Mountain climber
New York
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Jul 27, 2015 - 04:31pm PT
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I'm told, he is over at AR-15.com also, but I don't have an account there and can't see it.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 27, 2015 - 04:54pm PT
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Werner..you have some weird obsession going on Crankster. Let it go. it is kind of creepy.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Jul 27, 2015 - 04:57pm PT
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Having held onto my own unhealthy grudges, I'd say the idea that Mark would get this worked up over it without being a forum member with some previous unhealthy interactions in the forum is pretty unlikely, and it stands to reason (my reason anyway :-) that cmac pretty much knows who it is, at least as far as IP addresses and user ids go.
As kind of an unhealthy obsessive myself, I guess I'd just say to Mark that you're not gonna get what it is that you really want this way. Honestly I think you're just gonna dig yourself further into an unhealthy hole, and you'd be much better served figuring out what it is that you're really trying to get from doing this - holding onto this unhealthy grudge and expressing it in this antisocial way - and then put yourself on a path to getting whatever it is that you're really after. With all due respect, I think that the path that you're on is just going to hurt all of us.
Anyway, wishing us all well.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jul 27, 2015 - 04:59pm PT
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I like how more avatars are turning into ducks...HA!
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Jul 27, 2015 - 05:11pm PT
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To me, these two sentiments sum it up
JEleazarian wrote:
To me the problem isn't the moderation, it's the intolerant readers.
plund wrote:
If you disagree, then disagree! If disgusted, then move along.
Chris,
Sorry you have to wade through this mess.
FWIW: I wouldn't change anything.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jul 27, 2015 - 05:11pm PT
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Chris, real sorry you're having to deal with this.
Free speech is a fundamental liberal principle.
Shame on you, Mr. Winans. :(
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 27, 2015 - 05:18pm PT
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Censorship has been a tool used since the beginnings of civilization to restrain the free exchange of ideas.
I am nearly always opposed to the ideas expressed by Ron, TGT et al and they, likely, nearly always disagree with me. I live in a country where I can express my ideas freely and that means that those with contrasting views from mine have the same right.
Mr. Winans is obviously, like me, left of center. He should read some recent history of totalitarian regimes using censorship to extinguish progressive ideas in their citizenry.
Winans states that he doesn't participate in the forum....perhaps he should save his misplaced energy for arenas of more personal interest.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jul 27, 2015 - 05:25pm PT
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Yeah, I missed the booting &/or departure, too. What's the whole story behind Kos?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Jul 27, 2015 - 06:08pm PT
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"Like I said yesterday, for every Ron Anderson comment I am sending a boycott letter to one of your advertisers. Today it was Century Link for the first one. He's got several more comments(Surprise!), so I will need to send out several more boycott letters to your advertisers. Attached please find my letter to your sponsors. July 23, 2015
Denver,CO
Dear Sirs and Madams-
I would like you to know that you are advertising on a website whose members promote violence against other Americans. The level of hatred expressed on this site against Latinos and Muslims specifically is absolutely unacceptable in the United States of America. Specifically, I am talking about www.supertopo.com and its forum. While I of course believe in free speech in our great nation, I see no reason why a commercial platform needs to give its members a vehicle to express what can only be described as disgusting hate speech. Let them get their own website if they want to profess their constant hatred of fellow American citizens. You may not know this, but www.supertopo.com is a website that is oriented towards rock climbers in general, and rock climbers with a connection to Yosemite National Park in particular. It is very influential among a small but hardcore group of outdoor enthusiasts. Please be aware that as long as you continue to advertise onwww.supertopo.com, I will boycott your products and services, and will ask all my friends and acquaintances who rock-climb, run, kayak, mountaineer, hike, bike, backpack to join me in boycotting your company, and will ask them to ask all of their friends in joining me. Thank you for your consideration.
Mark Winans
Denver, CO"
Wow, talk about being butt hurt. Mr. Mark Winans or whoever you are have a backbone. Let things go. Let insults and rudeness and disagreeable comments go. Let it roll off like water on a ducks back. This is the USA and we have freedom of speech. Not everyone is gonna agree, some people aren't going to see things your way. Some may offend. It's life. Get over it.
I have to say I really really appreciate Chris Mac and the opportunity he has created with the online Supertopo climbing community via the forum, and our virtual campfire "The Supertaco." The history here on ST is extrodinary and the online community of very well known and respected climbers and pioneers in our community of brothers and sisters of the rope is at times unbelievable. What an opportunity to talk to these incredible people for which we admire for their incredible accomplishments in outdoor adventure sports.
Man, if anyone has the right to whine and complain about slander and being called every name under the Sun its me. Lol. I'm ok with it. I let it go. I have a backbone. I have self respect. I don't try to give back negativity to the offenders. I try to live by "The Golden Rule." As a fellow climber, back country skier, paraglider pilot, and a Messianic Jew/Gentile I hope I contribute to the community here at ST. Now I know I have a knack for bringing out the controversial topics, but can't we all agree to reason together in peace? Some of the OT threads are the best and most interesting and get everyone involved and worked up. But hey it's what's real life is all about. The climbing and related adventure sports that we all do and love is the mainstay continual backdrop here on ST and a way we all relate. The rest is the OT spice.
Why try to bring down such an open community? It seems that ST has policed itself when it's really needed. Why try to censore the free speech of others? That's what nations do that don't have the Constitution and the liberty we have here in the U.S. They hold down their people by taking away their freedoms. Don't let it happen. Push back.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jul 27, 2015 - 06:15pm PT
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Wow Klimmer! Did you ever nail it.
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Mark Sensenbach
climber
CA
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Jul 27, 2015 - 06:16pm PT
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I must say I really appreciate this forum.. As in all you can focus on the negative or focus on the positive. Try to stay positive or just move on down the road.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Jul 27, 2015 - 06:17pm PT
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The Kos thing crossed my mind, but he seemed like a pretty down to earth dude except for that one f*#k up. Hopefully everything is cool in his personal life and if this is him this isn't a sign of something bigger goin on : /
I agree that if anyone takes sh#t without whining its Klimmer. I try to be nice to the guy and hopefully I have been because besides being a little nuts (who isn't??) he seems a pretty reasonable and friendly guy.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jul 27, 2015 - 06:17pm PT
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Whomever this guy is he is the lowest of cowards.
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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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Jul 27, 2015 - 06:20pm PT
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It can work both ways. I'd be happy to boycott any company that decides to pull their ads in response to this buffoon. Just post 'em up.
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10b4me
Social climber
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Jul 27, 2015 - 06:25pm PT
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So if this guy has been reading the forum for ten years, he probably enjoys it. Isn't he shooting himself in the foot if the site goes away?
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Jul 27, 2015 - 06:35pm PT
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Mr. Winans
May borrow one of Ron's guns, pack it with his boycott letters, Then he can shove it up his ass and pull the trigger.
It can work both ways. I'd be happy to boycott any company that decides to pull their ads in response to this buffoon. Just post 'em up.
In.
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ruppell
climber
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Jul 27, 2015 - 06:39pm PT
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Why go after the site? Go after Ron. It's more fun.
And before everyone rips my online balls off, I like Ron and think he should stay around.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Jul 27, 2015 - 06:43pm PT
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Dont you dare leave Ron! That would be playing into their hand, and a damn chicken shyte hand they have.
Noone one this site should tolerate this person nor give way to this level of back stabbin shenanigans.
I may disagree with Ron, but we are all entitled to our own beliefs regardless.
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Climberdude
Trad climber
Clovis, CA
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Jul 27, 2015 - 06:55pm PT
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I hope this does not cause Rdog to leave this site. While Rdog contributes a lot of non-climbing content as well as climbing content, I appreciate reading his comments even if I do not agree with a lot of it. I appreciate the diversity of the crowd, even those with very strong political views.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jul 27, 2015 - 07:04pm PT
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"...he seemed like a pretty down to earth dude except for that one f*#k up. "
Yeah, we all go off the deep end every once in a while, and deserve the benefit of the doubt until then.
It's the one who never leave the deep end that are the real whacknuts.
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Dapper Dan
Trad climber
Redwood City
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Jul 27, 2015 - 07:14pm PT
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I know it's fallen in and out of favor over the years , but why not just have different sub forms : climbing , partners , trip reports , and off topic . Every other forum and community I am part of , motorcycles , 4x4 guys , and education , keep all the political junk confined in the off topic area . The forums and posters in general are so much more cordial and respectful ...
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jul 27, 2015 - 07:48pm PT
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Ron, I think Tom Petty would send you a cease and desist letter if he knew you were using one of his songs as your battle cry.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Jul 27, 2015 - 07:56pm PT
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Read this at post one this morning. Guess it picked up steam. Anyone have a good synopses. .
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Jul 27, 2015 - 08:02pm PT
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Here's a snymopses...Mark has a sore mangina and wants everyone to cow tow to him...How bout a group hug...?
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Norton
Social climber
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Jul 27, 2015 - 08:03pm PT
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"FreeSpeach"
yeah right
first and only post
just guess who it is, typical dick move to post someone's address and phone number
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Jul 27, 2015 - 08:05pm PT
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Fighting a bigotted a-hole with underhanded dickishness. Hard to pick a winner here.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jul 27, 2015 - 08:06pm PT
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"If it were my website I would not allow threads about politics or religion." -drljefe
Oh, drljefe, I'm disappointed to read that. So where's your inner humanist in that post? or inner humanities junkie?
Politics... religion... arguably our two institutions that are most concerned with humans and their deepest interests.
The forum's often likened to a climber's campfire. Really, what kind of campfire would it be with these two core subjects barred? Food for thought.
.....
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Say you're a "science type" (scientist, scienteer, science scholar, fan of science, etc)... You stick to science and avoid the humanities (the issues, topics, whatnot), and then you're considered by many narrow-minded, out of touch, anal-retentive, introverted, cold, yada yada.. On the other hand, you take up the challenge (unlike the stereotype, unlike many of your predecessors of yesteryear) and you actively / proactively involve yourself in the humanities in the form of politics and/or religion and/or philosophy and/or belief and such efforts are referred to as junk and bs and stoopid... worth avoiding whenever and wherever possible.
Damn, it's a tough world.
Yes, indeed. :)
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Jul 27, 2015 - 08:09pm PT
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Regarding violence...Ron, didn't you post a thread this morning and then delete it? Didn't you call out someone and say that if this person made a comment like that to you in person you'd "take ANY action necessary" to curtail it? crankster
so i have to write the sponsors now too.
"Dear Google,
clearly, you should not be sending advertising for outdoor singles, or babes in lingerie on the web site known as supertaco. Based upon the intelligence of some users and the immature fights that break out google should really be sending crayon and diaper advertisements. Just be forewarned.
sincerely,
hokeye
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jul 27, 2015 - 08:10pm PT
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Somebody check the IP of freespeech. No doubt it has Moundhouse, NV origins.
Ron, WTF. Seriously.
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Psilocyborg
climber
|
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Jul 27, 2015 - 08:32pm PT
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whoever this person is should completely and utterly f*#k off.
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atchafalaya
Boulder climber
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Jul 27, 2015 - 08:36pm PT
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"Winans is likely referring to the relatively new member Rdog, but we are not sure as he's never clarified which member or what specific posts he feels are inappropriate)."
That's because rdog(Ron Anderson) had a mental meltdown, deleted his previous 20,000 bigoted, racist, and intolerant posts, and just recently crawled back as a new forum member. Winans delivery sucks, but he ain't lying.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jul 27, 2015 - 08:41pm PT
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Here is an example of a recent communication Mr. Winans sent to us:
It makes sense to me to post all of his communications to you and any other communications to others to which you have access here.
I don't think Winans will do it himself.
If he thinks he has a case to make, then let's see what it is.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Jul 27, 2015 - 08:51pm PT
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If Winans has a beef about Rdogs porcupine fleece-lined thongs , this isn't the venue to air it..
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Jul 27, 2015 - 09:00pm PT
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HourDog...Shut up ...i know ...!
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jul 27, 2015 - 09:01pm PT
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Hey maybe Winans is a reformed Mexican Muslim and did the best he could legally to get back at Rron? I say reformed because otherwise he prolly would have jus blown dog up ;^O
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Jul 27, 2015 - 09:10pm PT
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atchafalaya
Boulder climber
Jul 27, 2015 - 08:36pm PT
"Winans is likely referring to the relatively new member Rdog, but we are not sure as he's never clarified which member or what specific posts he feels are inappropriate)."
That's because rdog(Ron Anderson) had a mental meltdown, deleted his previous 20,000 bigoted, racist, and intolerant posts, and just recently crawled back as a new forum member. Winans delivery sucks, but he ain't lying.
atchafalaya, try SuperNursery.
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Crazy Bat
Sport climber
Birmingham, AL & Seweanee, TN
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Jul 27, 2015 - 10:16pm PT
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When I first joined this forum it was full of the necked female form. One post from Cmac and the members began to behave. To any advertisers following this thread I have to say that the level of hate on hate has also dropped since I joined in 2010. I just ignore those posts I don't agree with and scroll on down.
Rock climbing is just one of my interests, I also cave, canoe, backpack and hunt.
Fellow posters, keep in mind this is probably one thread that the advertisers are looking at.
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Fish Finder
climber
|
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Jul 27, 2015 - 10:19pm PT
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Very Simple
Freedom of speech can sometimes be about better
Letter writing
Ignore and forget the Sponsors that pay any attention
To one d#@&%e bag
Don't Flinch as the last thing you want are copycats
Dear Sponsors
We are sorry that you were contacted by a delusional individual
That does not represent our core members who purchase your products
Although we try to uphold great standards on our forum
We do respect that all have the same right to freedom of speech
Bla bla bla
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Fish Finder
climber
|
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Jul 27, 2015 - 10:57pm PT
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So many whiners
So little time
Being attacked on a forum is just words
Is no different than getting hit with spit balls
In grammar school
Grow up and get thicker skin
How is it that so many need so much attention
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Fish Finder
climber
|
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Jul 27, 2015 - 11:25pm PT
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My contributions are that I am here
Edit:You can't hold back or censor Freedom of Speech
We all are who we are and say what we want to say
Words are not swords they are words
If they cut
Your just reading them wrong
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Fish Finder
climber
|
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Jul 27, 2015 - 11:42pm PT
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Meaningful is so subjective
In so many circles
Don't get all bruised patten yourself
on your back
I'm happy that you contribute anyway that you do
I'm sorry the admin won't give you the attention you deserve
For me I'll just do what I do here
Regardless if it fits into anyone else's expectations
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
Shitalkqua, WA
|
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Jul 27, 2015 - 11:43pm PT
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jul 27, 2015 - 11:52pm PT
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Folks, there is NO First Amendment issue:
Amendment I. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
It refers ONLY to action by the Gov't, not to private citizens. We all can restrict speech as much as we want.
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T.J.
climber
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Jul 27, 2015 - 11:58pm PT
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Well sheesh,
To the person "Mark", I have been visiting this site for many years. I enjoy it. It gives me a community of like minded "friends" whom I can interact with. For me, I'm a new dad which means I'm in semi-limited, temporary, space I have to work through as my kids get out of their early phase. I enjoy the TR's that give me the light to keep trying!!! Thanks everyone! I have found a place where I have lost amazing friends and can share stories with people that my friends knew but I I have never met. I am inspired by the positive minds here that keep me digging deep for anything that is truly worth pursuing. OT's, well they are just amusing and I participate despite the lack of "voice" that works better in person but whatever.
Chris,
I want my avatar "skywalker" back but I changed something and I don't know why it kicked me off.
Cheers!!!!
S....
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Fish Finder
climber
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Jul 28, 2015 - 12:00am PT
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Hi Patrick
Nice to meet you
You had mentioned a "wall of silence"
We all have so many minutes in a day
I'm guessing there aren't enough minutes
In the admins day to address all the squabbles
That go on here
This is all what YOU make of it
It's a fun informative collective
There are way more Asshats here
Than I can handle
But you weed them out and hold close the things you feel true to
Edit: Best,Gregg Pusateri
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Fish Finder
climber
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Jul 28, 2015 - 12:24am PT
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Casual and indirect
OK I am clueless
I know nothing about you or your issues here
I hope you can work that out
No one can follow your path here
Not me not C to the Mac
Just You
Chris is more of a Baliff
Trying to maintain order in the courtroom
Without saying anything
But please step inside and wait
as there is no Judge
Edit: so that is my point
Chris shouldn't have to drop anything for anybody
Where is the entitlement coming from?
Because you post meaningful content here for others to enjoy?
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Jul 28, 2015 - 12:28am PT
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This is an interesting dilemma for advertisers and companies that offer advertising space: how to stay out of personal vendettas? Advertisers can take the easy way out and walk away from anything that hints at controversy; but then they kill the businesses that bring them eyeballs and ultimately sales, and earn the resentment of many if not most of those viewers! From the forum admin's side, they can appease the manipulative minority viewpoint, destroy the environment that encourages most of their viewers to come, and then lose advertisers because they can't generate eyeballs!
For me, the litmus test of an advertiser should be this: does the forum have a reinforcing effect where hateful speech is encouraged and ultimately flourishes because there is a critical mass of participants who stoke the continued generation of hateful speech? Or is there a small group of ignorami that are present everywhere (that would be my tongue and cheek plural of ignoramuses) who are recognized as such and generally opposed or disregarded by other forum members? I've been hanging out at this site for 10 years, and I think the site is pretty clearly in the latter category.
The forum administrators have occasionally spoken out against or banned members that were unrepentant and repugnant in their expressed views, but they have skillfully balanced this with a very light degree of intervention that fosters the diversity of community that most if not all of the participants value. Viewers are always welcome to walk away. I don't think any sane person can claim this site creates more hatred in the world than it combats. There is no favoritism for discriminating or expressing disagreement with any specific group. All topics are open. If anything, the puffed up arguments that happen here are an outlet for negative energy that some participants need to be more positive in their face-to-face daily life.
One of the problems with imposing strict limits on what people talk about is that it takes away the ability to discuss uncomfortable or politically incorrect issues, and leads to a dystopian thought-police type society where we can't explore ideas any more and are forced to accept the viewpoint of the current administration. It can lead to less understanding and less acceptance of diversity. Sometimes those vocal ignoramuses say things that are just repugnant to just about everyone. But sometimes they say things out loud that are not as extreme, that are things many others are thinking but would be too embarrassed to say out loud for fear of being judged politically incorrect. The airing of these ideas, and the opposition from the rest of the group, and the exchange of ideas, can disinfect the minds of people who otherwise would hold onto their poorly conceived negative ideas with no public airing to give opportunity to change them.
So advertisers: if you want me to associate you with Big Brother Dystopian World and stop buying your products, go ahead and cave into the manipulations of Mark Winans. I have never communicated with the guy, and I have no idea who he is or what he wants. I have no problems with Latino folks, and no problems with Muslim individuals or Christian individuals. I am not fond of organized religion in general, especially because of the history of violence associated with many of them, but I don't think that makes me into a promulgator of hate speech, or intolerant of the existence of religious groups. Maybe if you are selling plastic Jesus statues I ruled myself out as a target customer ;) But otherwise, consider me an average Joe that comes here BECAUSE of the diversity, and withdrawing your advertising is a statement that you don't support what I want.
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drunkenmaster
Social climber
santa rosa
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Jul 28, 2015 - 01:06am PT
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Mr Winan is wrong when it says: "I would like you to know that you are advertising on a website whose members promote violence against other Americans. The level of hatred expressed on this site against Latinos and Muslims specifically is absolutely unacceptable in the United States of America. Specifically, I am talking about www.supertopo.com and its forum."
It should have said "I am talking about the SuperTopo forum." == only the SuperTopo forum is what is in question here because I am part of SuperTopo and we first and foremost make guidebooks. I am a SuperTopo author and also a proud member of a Latino family and good friend of many Muslims as I am sure a lot of other SuperTopo users are. I do not at all agree with "Mr Whinar". It seems very sad and I feel needs to be ignored now because It is obviously delusional about who is at fault - this is America and this is a FREE FORUM with FREEDOM OF SPEECH so if It does not like the open dialogue then please LEAVE :) It seems that only one or maybe a couple of our members at most said anything to fire It up and that is in no way a representation of our overall attitude. So to try to persecute the many for the actions of a few that It does not agree with is not what FREEDOM is about so maybe It should question It's own FREEDOM or lack thereof.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Jul 28, 2015 - 03:47am PT
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Reality sells.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Jul 28, 2015 - 07:01am PT
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This Low-T thing is nothing to joke about. I was just explaining to a group of climbers at the Warming Wall, how my level dropped substantially after 40, and I am only good for 2 or 3 times a day now.
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little Z
Trad climber
un cafetal en Naranjo
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Jul 28, 2015 - 07:05am PT
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Well said Nut, well said. Wish I had your eloquence.
If advertisers can't see that this is nothing but a personal vendetta, then go ahead and bail and look for somewhere else to pander to the weak minded.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jul 28, 2015 - 07:33am PT
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A tempestuous teapot, indeed.
Also, at times, the ST Forum is a dirty, shyte-stinkin', lime-encrusted toilet bowl swirling away for hours to no avail.
QED.
MFM
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jul 28, 2015 - 07:50am PT
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Quedando atrás en su comprhension de por qué este tema está generando mucho interés en el foro?
Podemos ayudar.
Advertising, of thee I sing.
God loves you, CMac. It's not too much, just enough, no matter what.
Good job.
Final words on the subject.
Adios, muchachos.
See you at Facelift, Fish Finder, aka "Greg P."
I hope to make it and I'm gonna bring some custom-made sausage for breakfasts, I hope.
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Lurkingtard
climber
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Jul 28, 2015 - 08:40am PT
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Less whining, more climbing.
You're welcome.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Jul 28, 2015 - 08:41am PT
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HTFU.
Thin skin has no place here, for better or worse. I've posted many touchy-feely threads over the years and I separate the wheat from the chaff. Be who you are, but be confident as you do so.
BTW Avery, I like what you're doing with the historical threads.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jul 28, 2015 - 08:47am PT
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Yeah, good stuff on the Alpine History threads Avery.
Just step away for a bit. It's about the only thing that works for me when something gets me wrapped around the axle.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Jul 28, 2015 - 08:47am PT
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Here's my Internet Dick Tracy thought:
I don't think it's Kos, unless he's gone deep under cover.
The complainer targeted CenturyLink (which is the local telephone provider in Colorado and other places, but not, to my knowledge, anywhere in California, where Kos is from).
Assuming the ads are targeted by IP address, Kos wouldn't get CenturyLink ads and wouldn't have thought to target that company in his boycott.
Most likely, the complainer is from somewhere served by CenturyLink, so I think we can rule out the Californians (some of whom would otherwise be leading suspects--for some reason Ron and Californians don't seem to play nicely).
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Jul 28, 2015 - 08:48am PT
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I'm sorry the admin won't give you the attention you deserve
Could you please elaborate on that, Fish Finder.
I'm tired of hiding behind "Avery"
My real name is Patrick Kavanagh (For those few people who give a damn)
Hi, Patrick. I don't know why you are all upset and calling out FF on his climbing content. I can swear to the fact that FF does indeed CLIMB ROCKS, quite well in fact.
So thanks for sporting up your real name, if it is indeed your real name.
Are you sure your not "Mark Winans?"
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Jul 28, 2015 - 08:54am PT
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Fish Finder is also a good friend of mine and has bailed me out of many situations and is well loved and liked in the local climbing community he resides in.
Save the abuse
That's 'abuse'? Can you say 'first world problems'?
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Jul 28, 2015 - 08:57am PT
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^^^^ If he does will you stop emailing advertisers to pull their content?
lolololol
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jul 28, 2015 - 08:59am PT
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it might be easier to just tell Ron to refrain from posting racist comments?
What kind of alternate universe could that even happen in??
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jul 28, 2015 - 09:02am PT
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Hahahahaha! Bleedin' 'ell, Lt!!!!
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looks easy from here
climber
Ben Lomond, CA
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Jul 28, 2015 - 09:11am PT
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209 posts in and none of our tin-hatters have cried false flag by CMac to drum up site traffic and rah-rah letters to sponsors?
I'm honestly a little disappointed.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 28, 2015 - 09:24am PT
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Not sure why I'm replying to this thread... but I find the somewhat disingenuous outrage over the perceived limitations of "our freedom of expression" alleged to a "vigilante censor" quite beside the point.
Whether or not you, or the administrators of this web site believe that it is "more than just" a commercial enterprise, what is at stake is a commercial interest. And the mature act would be to protect the "property" represented by the site, the interest in the SuperTopo brand and its commercial offerings. In other words, formal legal proceedings against the allegations of the individual.
The owners of SuperTopo can decide whether or not it is worth their time to pursue such a course of action. Assuming that "Mark Winans" is seriously offended by the postings on SuperTopo Forum, he is well within his "rights" to voice his opinion to the world, including the advertisers. He is also well within his rights to organize a boycott on the basis of his beliefs. However, his actions are a deliberate attempt to deny the owners of the site the commercial benefits of running the site. It would seem this is disagreement is the sort of thing that gets sorted out in court.
If "Mark Winans" has ulterior motives the only way to discover them is to confront him legally.
The downside, of course, is that the outcome in initiating a legal action is not certain, though it is expensive in time and money.
This leads to the question about how the content of SuperTopo Forum is viewed by a reader, whether a member or not, and what action the administrators of the site could or should take in the protection of their commercial interest. Denying advertising through boycott does not shut the site down directly, there are other ways of raising revenue to maintain the site.
For those posting content which is the basis of "Mark Winans" complaint; those complaints are the natural consequences of expressing such ideas. Whether or not "our vibrant republic" supports the freedom to make these expressions, it does not make that expression exceptional, the freedom is open to everyone. And having all those ideas out in the "market of ideas" allows people to decide for themselves whether or not the ideas are acceptable and/or correct. The people can decide.
Where those decisions infringe a right of a minority (even a minority of one), we once again have the courts to decide the outcome.
As an aside, the society of SuperTopo Forum members does not necessarily hold the views of the general internet public, and the tolerance of the STForum members to certain types of posts is not necessarily shared by the "general internet public." In the past this has been amply demonstrated by people leaving the ST Forum community over what they considered to be outrageous, hurtful or derogatory posting. My point here is that we might have "self selected" an audience willing to put up with otherwise abhorrent behavior in order to gain something else of value.
That means it is possible that in a more general view of what goes on here, that some of the postings are so repugnant that individuals feel that action need be taken against the site.
You could ask yourself the question: if I had to pay to be a member of the STForum, would I be willing to directly support all of the content on STForum?
We actually don't have to answer that question, but the advertisers do...
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Jul 28, 2015 - 09:24am PT
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Ed, a lot of words, wise as usual, but - I'll ask again - why wouldn't you (as moderator) just make a rule that no racist comments are allowed on the site? If I'm an advertiser, I'd have no interest supporting a website forum without at least this bit of self-imposed "censorship".
Also, seems to me that this is moot point. Someone has threatened to send advertisers copies of Ron Anderson's posts he deems to promote violence against Latino & Muslim Americans. Step 1 might be to make sure this does not happen in the future. Chris can purse legal action if he wants on the letters already sent, but at least he'd have no further ones to deal with.
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HermitMaster
Social climber
my abode
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Jul 28, 2015 - 09:29am PT
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Crankster,
Put a sock in it. No one on this forum is a racist. (Except when Norton posted the picture of Obama with a bone in his nose and calling him a ni$$ar)
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Jul 28, 2015 - 09:32am PT
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For context,
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Edit; Really, Crankster, you should get off of your high horse and chill the f*#k out. I actually agree with you politically, but you waste people's time with your bitching and whining. Just shut up about politics and talk about climbing, and keep it that way. There are other forums for your whining.
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HermitMaster
Social climber
my abode
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Jul 28, 2015 - 09:42am PT
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Stuff it yourself, Hermit. There are plenty of racist on this site - most hide, one doesn't. My opinion, of course.
Your Opinion, of course....So, let us all genuflect to it.....
No thanks....
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this just in
climber
Justin Ross from North Fork
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Jul 28, 2015 - 09:43am PT
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Wow another crankster self appreciation thread. Have you called anyone a bully yet?
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Gregory Crouch
Social climber
Walnut Creek, California
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Jul 28, 2015 - 09:44am PT
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I find the political threads so distasteful that ever since I was fool enough to read a few of them shortly after I joined, I have ignored them almost entirely. I suggest Mr. Winans do the same. But I wouldn't be in favor of imposing any forum censorship, either. From either the right or left. Unless it starts impacting your bottom line, then you'll have to choose. You do own it, after all.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Jul 28, 2015 - 09:53am PT
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Crankster. I doubt Brandon is going to respond because the guy has some real sense of what is going on here. Now, this quote from you is a great example of that.
Brandon, what the hell are you talking about??? Have you read the title of this thread??? It's not about climbing!!!! Read!!!!!! I'm addressing the subject matter and you're posting stupid time-wasting videos!!!!
You are choosing to refocus the thread (again) on comments like this, as opposed to responding to say Ed's well thought argument and comment on the previous page all the while ignoring the off topic comments. You have a choice. And you have chosen to argue with those who you are complaining about thereby dragging the further down that path and (in my opinion) bolstering their arguments. I really doubt you would get this response if you really stayed on topic...
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Jul 28, 2015 - 09:58am PT
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^^^^figures you don't get it. Your choice.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Jul 28, 2015 - 10:00am PT
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First they came for him, and I was not that so I said no skin off my back...
Then they came a bit more aggressively and I said : well I do not want to get any of that on me. . . .
Then I saw that really good climbers with years more experience then I we're not coming back. . . .
Then they came for you but I never liked what you said, so eF that. . .
Know what ?
Now they say
No Small Rocks From Small rock Hell no Moderation - thinking what we want is freedom
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Jul 28, 2015 - 10:31am PT
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In direct response to Chris' query, What are your thoughts? :
My thought is that whoever Winans is, he/she is exercising his right to express his opinion. People do that in 100s of posts a day on this Forum. The difference is, Winans probably has the legal right (not being a lawyer, I don't know for sure) to express those opinions to advertisers, whereas the people on the Forum express their opinions at your discretion since you own the site.
It seems like what you are really asking is, what should you do, or what would WE do, under these circumstances.
What I would do, if I owned the site: I personally do not enjoy and avoid/ignore threads about politics, religion, and women's body parts. If I OWNED this site, I would have a moratorium on those threads and it wouldn't bother ME if people left in droves because my policy made the Forum "boring" to them. And it wouldn't bother ME if the Forum made less money because those changes. But I have NEVER complained to you about these things because YOU OWN IT, and I presume the Forum operates exactly the way you want it to.
As to what YOU should do, that's your business. What kind of Forum do YOU want? People have been complaining to you for years about over-posters, extreme nastiness between certain users, and too many politics/religion/tits&ass threads. Lots of good suggestions have been floated over the years, but have never been implemented.
Maybe I should recommend that you just say F*%k it and close the whole Forum down, but oh, wait! Then all the CLIMBING info that gets exchanged here wouldn't happen, and THAT would be a real loss to the climbing community.
Phyl
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jul 28, 2015 - 10:41am PT
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Any advertiser that cannot distinguish between positions officially advocated by Supertopo itself and the opinions expressed by unaffiliated individuals in a forum context is too stupid and PC to do business with.
Please, Chris, let us know what businesses have been swayed by this tripe and thus have quit advertising here, so that we can boycott them on the basis of their stupidity alone.
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Norton
Social climber
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Jul 28, 2015 - 10:44am PT
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No one on this forum is a racist. (Except when Norton posted the picture of Obama with a bone in his nose and calling him a ni$$ar)
yes, I did do that a couple of years ago, yeah I got angry with a right wing prick
to mock the thinly veiled pure racism against President Obama that a certain poster who is still active here was vomiting at the mouth with
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squishy
Mountain climber
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Jul 28, 2015 - 11:06am PT
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Any advertiser that cannot distinguish between positions officially advocated by Supertopo itself and the opinions expressed by unaffiliated individuals in a forum context is too stupid and PC to do business with.
I think they are smart enough to realize that the unaffiliated individuals are ALLOWED, in this case (by the moderators), and there's MEANS to prevent such content. The advertisers are reacting to inaction by moderators (or Chris himself), not the posting of unsavory and controversial content by individuals. And they have a right to such a decision, to call them too stupid or PC to do business with when they are possibly making a sound business decision, for them, is sort of disingenuous...and dare I say, stupid...
I think there's forums out there where such people can go post that stuff in freedom, a climbing forum is not and should not ackomidate them or feel forced to by peers or the community. Especially if you face such allegations and outside pressure. The rants and content by some posters here is distasteful, but I have no opinion on that, I enjoy the color, but if there's adverse effects then you must react to shore up the ship. Sure, fighting for free speech and the right for everyone here to be themselves and open is an honorable thing to fight for, I would do the same and have in the past. But I must say, when it effects your personal life and people truly get nasty, it's simply not worth it anymore.
Also, because Chris (arguably a public figure through fame) has decided to present himself as the face and name behind Supertopo, there is no protection against slander, even if it's proven this character is doing this intentionally to hit your pocketbook and lying to do so..you are open to such criticism by being a public figure and standing on the world stage. You must understand you are held to a higher standard than anyone else posting here and therefor it is your responsibility to moderate. I think everyone, who believes in free speech and open forum content, should support and accept your choice to begin moderating, in order to protect your name and community. There must be compromise and understanding..and Ron needs to go find a tea bagger forum to dump on and keep his posts about climbing...there's a time and place for that, a much better time and place...so go take advantage of those forums ron and try to understand what your doing to this entire community...
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atchafalaya
Boulder climber
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Jul 28, 2015 - 11:09am PT
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So, Ron Anderson (rdog) is hurting your business? The choice(s) seem pretty clear.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jul 28, 2015 - 11:13am PT
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It seems like what you are really asking is, what should you do, or what would WE do, under these circumstances.
What I would do, if I owned the site: I personally do not enjoy and avoid/ignore threads about politics, religion, and women's body parts. If I OWNED this site, I would have a moratorium on those threads and it wouldn't bother ME if people left in droves because my policy made the Forum "boring" to them. And it wouldn't bother ME if the Forum made less money because those changes. But I have NEVER complained to you about these things because YOU OWN IT, and I presume the Forum operates exactly the way you want it to.
As to what YOU should do, that's your business. What kind of Forum do YOU want? People have been complaining to you for years about over-posters, extreme nastiness between certain users, and too many politics/religion/tits&ass threads. Lots of good suggestions have been floated over the years, but have never been implemented.
Phyl, it doesn't surprise me that you would remain focused on the question CMac asked. Other than the person-to-person griping, most seem to say they want the forum remaining as it is but, as you correctly state, that's Chris's decision as an owner. I'll admit that as a father of daughters, an older brother of sisters, and a husband, I could do without threads focused on females as sex objects, but I think Chris has already dealt with that.
As a person interested in truth, though, I deplore the idea that we should combat ideas by preventing their expression. I remain shocked to learn what constitutes "hate speech." It seems as absurd as the inquiries to determine if a particular murder (definition of murder is an unlawful homocide with malice aforethought) constitutes a "hate crime."
After all, I am an (1)old (2)white (3)male (4) evangelical Christian (5) conservative (6) Republican (7) who climbs by the "first ascent principal" meaning that I (8) climb runout slab routes the way I find them and who (9) enjoys aid climbing and (10) enjoys sport climbing and (11) enjoys gym climbing. There have been threads and posts criticizing each of those 11 categories above (and doubtless more in which I would fit). Have I therefore suffered from "hate speech?" I don't think so. In fact, I suspect neither Crankster nor "Mark Winans" nor any other Coloradan with a personal ST vendetta thinks so.
I find the proper response to criticism of any of the groups to which I belong consists of argument, not censorship. In my opinion, anyone unable to silence an argument with logic has no "right" to silence it with censorship.
John
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Jul 28, 2015 - 11:22am PT
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John, I enjoy your posts and respect your opinion - and I leave all climbs as I find them, also. But don't lump me in with Mark Winans. As I've stated, I don't advocate a boycott of a worthy site like ST, I just think one poster crosses the line into "hate speech" too many times. We can disagree on what constitutes hate speech. It happens infrequently here, but it should be obvious to you, I would hope. When you do, let loose with your logic.
squishy nailed it, by the way.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jul 28, 2015 - 11:28am PT
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Sorry crankster. My bad.
John
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Jim Clipper
climber
from: forests to tree farms
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Jul 28, 2015 - 11:51am PT
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This is clearly an attempt by Jade Helm to discredit and slander Rdog. Ron simply knows too much. They can't afford to have him continue posting, and possibly bust the whole thing wide open.
Or maybe, it is a false flag campaign by Rdog. By making himself the victim, he'll cement his place on the Taco for eternity.
Sorry if this all was so obvious.
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squishy
Mountain climber
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Jul 28, 2015 - 11:53am PT
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hahahahahahahaha, ok that was funny...
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sDawg
climber
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Jul 28, 2015 - 12:08pm PT
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Chris, I have to push back. You've given just enough information to get the bulk of your users on your side, but haven't been completely transparent with us. Have you reached out to make 100% sure your complaint policies are painfully clear with Mark? Have you ensured him of the transparency of your followup to any complaint? Perhaps an offer to speak with him to review your policies and consider his feedback would even be appropriate. You'd be in the right to say he has some responsibility for seeking out direct complaint mechanisms before going over your head to advertisers. However if you want the moral high ground it's on you to make a concerted effort to ensure he has none available.
Of course I don't think capitulating to his demands is the right course, but your original post is not sufficient to convince me that effortful communication and deliberate de-escalation from your side can't work.
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Norton
Social climber
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Jul 28, 2015 - 12:08pm PT
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I don't feel there is anything contrived, manipulative, or "fake" about Ron Anderson.
He is what he is, and he wears what he is proudly with no apologies.
Personally, not that he or anyone else care what I think, what he is makes me want to puke.
To me he is the caricature of the "Ugly American" so reviled across the globe.
I say let Ron Anderson continue to be Ron Anderson, he has already been "banned" and
it is obvious he wants to continue to post here because he talked his way back on.
Ron is careful, nowadays, that he does not directly attack anyone without them starting it.
What he cannot stop or even mitigate a little is what is his true nature...........
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jul 28, 2015 - 12:08pm PT
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Interesting and informative articles, along with the "related articles" listed, k-man. Thanks for the reference. They put the dangers of personal attacks in a better perspective for me.
Trolls and "bullies" differ, though, in my mind. Frankly, I've read very little on Super Topo that comes close to what I would call "bullying," and what little I have, the moderators very quickly squelched.
Trolls, in contrast, simply generate controversy, which is their desired effect. Lord knows we've all thought the authors of some stuff we've read must be idiots, and told them so in exasperation, but if that's all it takes to make a "bully," then I think we overreact. As a concrete (and almost certainly a trolling [to some eyes here]) example, consider some of what Werner posts. If he calls us "stoopid," does anyone really believe that he thinks we're mentally deficient, worthless, despicable people, rather than just being playful in expressing his disagreement? In no way is Werner a "cyberbully" to my reading, and that's one reason, in addition to his body of work as a climber, why so many of us pay attention to all he posts.
I think Ron, LEB and several others,in contrast, have been subjected to a very great deal of what seems, to me, bullying behavior. The personal insults directed their way - often telling them they're awful people and need to go away - would cause an objective person to conclude that the posters hated them personally, not just the ideas they expressed.
What am I missing?
John
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jul 28, 2015 - 12:55pm PT
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And they have a right to such a decision, to call them too stupid or PC to do business with when they are possibly making a sound business decision, for them, is sort of disingenuous...and dare I say, stupid...
They, of course, have the right to their own assessment of reality, as do you, and as do I. As you just said to me, "dare you," that my perspective is stupid, you must by definition think that it's possible to think another person's perspective is stupid. So, apparently we are simply disagreed about what stupid is.
Your idea that CMac is complicit in what he allows seems really thin to me, and, again, if advertisers want to pull their ads on something that thin, I'm happy to boycott them for what I believe really is an overly PC view of reality and a failure to GET the basic principle: Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me.
I think there's forums out there where such people can go post that stuff in freedom, a climbing forum is not and should not ackomidate them or feel forced to by peers or the community.
There is a reason why CMac has "been complicit" in allowing these forums to remain largely unmoderated, and it's a reasonable and consistent position that, I believe, includes a realization that a heavily moderated forum will soon go the way of rc.com and others. This is not a "climbing forum" in the sense you seem to believe. It is a forum of largely climbers who like to discuss a wide, wide range of topics. That is not the same as a "climbing forum."
If CMac wants to turn it into strictly a climbing forum, that is, of course, his right. Many will leave for the other forums you mention. Such is life. Big deal. Only CMac can decide the bang-for-the-buck himself. Who am I? But none of this touches my perspective that these finger-to-the-wind, PC-intensive perspectives are stupid and ultimately unsustainable.
Especially if you face such allegations and outside pressure. The rants and content by some posters here is distasteful, but I have no opinion on that, I enjoy the color, but if there's adverse effects then you must react to shore up the ship.
Maybe. Or maybe "shoring up the ship" is to simply and forthrightly respond to the advertisers about your "light moderation" policy and find others if some leave. There are MANY fish in the sea, and not all are stupid enough to take seriously the rant of a single letter. The forums by and large are NOT as the letter states, and it is easy enough to discover that fact with a tiny bit of digging. So, I have zero sympathy for the "sensibilities" of any advertiser that can't see the sense in CMac's past approach.
Again, it's his call and his alone. He asked for thoughts, and I've offered mine. You call my perspective "stupid," but I'm not the one apparently making decisions and having perspectives based on the THINNEST of "evidence."
Sure, fighting for free speech and the right for everyone here to be themselves and open is an honorable thing to fight for, I would do the same and have in the past. But I must say, when it effects your personal life and people truly get nasty, it's simply not worth it anymore.
That's your opinion, and I'll say flatly that I have no respect for it. I believe that talk of "honor" and doing the right thing is a bunch of armchair hooey until the moment that your stand DOES take you into deep waters, cost you personally, and get truly nasty. Only then do you (and others) know whether you have a genuine principled stand or just a comfortable preference.
It's pretty clear that we don't share some pretty core values, so I won't "debate" you further on this subject. It's CMac's call, and I'll support his decision. I've offered my thoughts, which is all any of us can do.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Jul 28, 2015 - 01:50pm PT
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Radical!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jul 28, 2015 - 01:54pm PT
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This Marc Winans
My bad. I got it from Pete OB above.
It's no "witch hunt" to seek to contact the guy and try to get his overarching perspective, as well as see if there's any way to find some meeting of the minds.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jul 28, 2015 - 02:02pm PT
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It's amazing no ones mentioned, Capt. Obvious
You have, about 10 times now, lol!
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anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
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Jul 28, 2015 - 02:03pm PT
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I'm sorry.
I knew my selfies thread was contributing to the demise of SuperTopo but I never knew it would go this far.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jul 28, 2015 - 02:14pm PT
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I skimmed and counted, just out of curiosity, make it six, lol!!
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michael feldman
Mountain climber
NJ
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Jul 28, 2015 - 02:36pm PT
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Hey Chris,
As an attorney and a climber, I think this (what Winans is apparently doing based upon your description) is pretty outrageous. First, in the "Forum Tips," SuperTopo sets forth its policy. If Winans has a problem with a particular post, he should have followed your policy and then you could decide whether there was a particular action that should be taken. His failure to do so is, itself, a breach of SuperTopo's policies.
Second, SuperTopo has no obligation to read and monitor every posting to determine if something said is offensive to someone. Indeed, I am pretty sure that there are a ton of posts that are offensive to someone (i.e., a gym-only climber being offended by someone saying that is not real climbing, etc.). While it would be nice for people to all just get along, you cannot prevent people from being offended - though your policy sets forth a procedure to try to deal with the most offensive postings. That being said, I would bet that at least 99% of everything that goes on in the Forum is not truly offensive in the sense that it would upset any advertisers.
Third, Winans appears to be engaged in defamation AND tortious interference with contract/business advantage (legal stuff). While the truth may be a defense to defamation, it appears that the claim that SuperTopo is engaged in making offensive statements is not true. Rather, his own allegations appear to be that a third-party (not SuperTopo) is making statements that Winans believes are offensive and those statements appear on SuperTopo's forum (and are not removed because Winans has refused to follow SuperTopo's policy). There is a huge difference here. Nobody is accusing the NY Times, CNN, the WSJ or any other news organizations of making offensive comments because they publish comments made by Trump or Huckabee or Hezbollah or North Korea, etc. Winans appears to be engaged in tortious interference because he is knowingly and intentionally trying to interfere with SuperTopo's relationships with its advertisers. Indeed, that appears to be his stated intent.
Fourth, while a lawsuit may solve some problems, it could be expensive and it may be difficult to identify who Winans actually is. On the other hand, preparing a detailed letter explaining all of this to all of your advertisers in advance may stem some of the potential damage. I would think that any credible advertiser would not be put off by what is actually going on here - as opposed to their initial view of things when they receive a letter or e-mail from Winans. Maybe it is time to take the initiative so the first thing your advertisers see is the truth, so they have the correct perspective when/if they receive any letter from Winans.
That's my 2 cents.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jul 28, 2015 - 02:47pm PT
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Michael, if that's your two cents, we need to talk about raising your hourly rate!
John
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jul 28, 2015 - 02:48pm PT
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Only on SuperTopo would a non-lawyer lecture a lawyer about the law. LOL!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jul 28, 2015 - 03:38pm PT
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Lawyer guy, you might want to re-read what this Winans guy actually wrote. You have misconstrued it, it is very clear that he singles out the members of the forum.
headupyourazz, you might want to do some rereading of your own. "Lawyer guy" is spot on regarding "Mark's" intention, tactics, and defamation. He's also spot on regarding the fact that a suit would be well-grounded, assuming that this goofball can be outed.
Almost as bad as the philosopher guy, but at least your walls of text are 400 words instead of 12,000.
Here's my four letters: ROFL!
Don't be envious because you're not capable of putting up anything but flimsy, broke-back shacks of text. Nobody thinks any less of you. I know it's not possible for me to.
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michael feldman
Mountain climber
NJ
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Jul 28, 2015 - 03:42pm PT
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Elcap, your point is well taken (though I have never been laughed out of court, nor will I). However, the ultimate points remain the same. SuperTopo has a policy to try to prevent offensive postings. Thus, SuperTopo does not "give its members a vehicle to express what can only be described as disgusting hate speech." Indeed, SuperTopo does the opposite, in practice and in its policy, and ironically, with the very poster Winans seems to be complaining about. Winans also misleads when he states that SuperTopo's "members promote violence against other Americans." I do not believe SuperTopo has members. More importantly, Winans specifically points to a sole (now banned) poster on the SuperTopo website. He/she knows that the letter to the advertiser is thus false and misleading.
Everyone is entitled to his/her point of view, but let's not kid ourselves into ever believing that Winans is trying to prevent discrimination or offensive comments by what he/she is doing. Winans is trying to damage SuperTopo. For all we know, Winans IS Ron Anderson.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jul 28, 2015 - 03:45pm PT
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ElCap,
Perhaps you missed a couple of subtle differences.
You lectured the lawyer. I offer my opinions.
I'd be happy to compare my military service and
aviation licenses and endorsements to yours any time. I guarantee I could
make you throw up within 2 minutes if you want to spring for some aerobatic
time. ;-)
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Jul 28, 2015 - 03:49pm PT
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Michael
More importantly, Winans specifically points to a sole (now banned) poster on the SuperTopo website. He/she knows that the letter to the advertiser is thus false and misleading.
I believe Ron Anderson is currently posting as Rdog and most know it. Certainly not a secret.
edit; I think that is who you referring to..
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Jul 28, 2015 - 04:09pm PT
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El Cap.... having another bad day??
Boltguy? GFYS, clown.
your are one of the first to come out all hateful....
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atchafalaya
Boulder climber
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Jul 28, 2015 - 04:12pm PT
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"though I have never been laughed out of court, nor will I"
Is that because you didn't hear what happened after you exited the courtroom, or because you practice transactional work?
Both would explain your analysis of Winan's email.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Jul 28, 2015 - 04:15pm PT
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Jul 28, 2015 - 03:25pm PT
Looks like you got what you wanted Mark. Well played sir....but what will you whine about now???? One thing for sure, it won't involve climbing content
Too funny. Deputy Potatohead drops in and solves the case!
PS: try paying attention. Ron's posts were deleted along with his former account before this Mark Winans appeared. Back to desk duty there, Barney Fife.
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Jul 28, 2015 - 04:21pm PT
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I do not really agree with a person going to advertiser and threatening boycotts. However, I do find it amusing that the person can back it up with example posts. I also find it very amusing that one person mentions that he has not seen any examples of Ron Anderson threatening Americans but then goes on to say he has said stuff about Muslims... Ah, perhaps think about that a minute or two.
I do not spend a ton of time on here and actually spend less all time. Partly because of how strident some of the posts are. I just did not realize how prejudiced some of the users are. I do very much agree with the person that said Supertopo is a product and if you want to take it to the next level then moderation (something I really do not like) may need to be considered. Supertopo is supported by advertisers and I have a hard time believing the advertisers support or condone some of the more hard line posts that go on here.
There comes a time when you have to decide on whether you want to be a bush league site or if you want to be a business. If you want to be bush league than do not worry about the advertisers and let everyone do what they want. If you want to be a business you will probably has to have some folks tone it down a bit. It is rather obvious from following the forum the last few years some folks are unable to moderate themselves.
Here's to sweat in your eye.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Jul 28, 2015 - 04:32pm PT
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Mr. Mud just put this issue to bed.
Bravo
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jul 28, 2015 - 04:38pm PT
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Then, when corrected, incredibly leaves it up
Yup, because I don't delete posts or edit them without noting it. When I'm wrong, I'm wrong, and I don't hide.
BTW, I won't shorten your handle to "El Cap" like some others here. I have respect for El Cap, and your handle itself is offensive and is so by design. If that's your level, then "headupyoazz" is the appropriate reworking of it, not "El Cap."
Don't get mad, lol... just get your head out....
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Jul 28, 2015 - 05:02pm PT
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Is it about time for Chris to weigh in here again?
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Handjam Belay
Gym climber
expat from the truth
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Jul 28, 2015 - 05:35pm PT
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CHRIS!!!!!
BEFORE YOU CALL THE LAWYER CALL JEREMY
If it gets past him call:
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LuckyPink
climber
the last bivy
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Jul 28, 2015 - 05:54pm PT
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There is no such thing as bad publicity P T Barnum
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jul 28, 2015 - 06:01pm PT
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Thanks for coming down to the audition, but we've already made our selection.
-The Hardy Boys
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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MisterE
Gym climber
Being In Sierra Happy Of Place
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Jul 28, 2015 - 06:56pm PT
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I do not really agree with a person going to advertiser and threatening boycotts. However, I do find it amusing that the person can back it up with example posts. I also find it very amusing that one person mentions that he has not seen any examples of Ron Anderson threatening Americans but then goes on to say he has said stuff about Muslims... Ah, perhaps think about that a minute or two.
I do not spend a ton of time on here and actually spend less all time. Partly because of how strident some of the posts are. I just did not realize how prejudiced some of the users are. I do very much agree with the person that said Supertopo is a product and if you want to take it to the next level then moderation (something I really do not like) may need to be considered. Supertopo is supported by advertisers and I have a hard time believing the advertisers support or condone some of the more hard line posts that go on here.
There comes a time when you have to decide on whether you want to be a bush league site or if you want to be a business. If you want to be bush league than do not worry about the advertisers and let everyone do what they want. If you want to be a business you will probably has to have some folks tone it down a bit. It is rather obvious from following the forum the last few years some folks are unable to moderate themselves.
Here's to sweat in your eye.
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Jul 28, 2015 - 07:19pm PT
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It's a white guys forum, figure it out.
Times change.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jul 28, 2015 - 07:32pm PT
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How much traffic would this site get without the forum? I doubt a single person has failed purchase a product based on the ravings of lunatics and biggots on the forum.
Ban the people that add no value and be done with it.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jul 28, 2015 - 08:00pm PT
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Ban the people that add no value and be done with it.
Is Paypal accepted?
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| Messages 1 - 185 of total 185 in this topic |
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