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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 26, 2015 - 06:37am PT
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lets face it, our climbing rules are basicly stupid. One guy drills a bolt aid ladder and he is a hero. The next guy chips a single hold to make a free move and avoid makeing an aid move on a bolt and he is a zero. Etc, Etc, Etc.
Will someone please explaine to me why this is more ethical than a bolt?
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Jul 26, 2015 - 06:47am PT
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As long as it went in ground up, on stance, while sporting a Carmen Miranda headpiece, it's cool with me...
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Jul 26, 2015 - 06:55am PT
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That is lovely photo. I feel more ethical just looking at it!
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 26, 2015 - 06:58am PT
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Will someone please explain to me why this is more ethical than a bolt?
That is an example of an illusion created within the mind.
They believe that they have eliminated a bolt.
But it's the same as both a bolt and a copperhead/aluminhead where manufactured into the rock by force.
This an example how the climber can justify forcing a line to an acceptable bolt count on a big wall.
Just chisel out seams that take no other gear and paste heads .......
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 26, 2015 - 07:00am PT
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Good question. Bolts got their legitimacy during the "Golden Age" of Yosemite when getting up big walls was the name of the game. Free climbing was very secondary to aid. Bolt ladders were put in where deemed necessary but I don't think that chipping holds we're considered.
Both chipping and bolting mar the rock landscape. Both chipping and bolts are often deemed unnecessary by later climbers with better skills. Holds we're chipped on the first ascents of The Gripper and Outer Limits which are moderate climbs by today's standards.
Bolts for aid often become bolts for protection when the section is free climbed. A chipped hole forever negates the chance for better climbers doing the section free in its natural state.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 26, 2015 - 07:00am PT
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That is exactly my point. Most of our climbing rulze are illusions created within our minds..
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 26, 2015 - 07:03am PT
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I am not just talking about chipping Vs bolt ladder. I am speaking of the whole shebang....
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Jul 26, 2015 - 07:03am PT
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I would feel safer with one of these.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jul 26, 2015 - 07:05am PT
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Reglas para la escalada?
Estas loco!
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 26, 2015 - 07:06am PT
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And bolts were legit long before Yosemite...
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Jul 26, 2015 - 07:42am PT
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Every climb in an area has to be the same style.
I.e. Tuolumne
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jul 26, 2015 - 08:16am PT
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I'm not saying one is better than the other, but in terms of why place a head instead of a bolt, here's some reasoning. A bolt is A1 and takes no real skill to place, whereas copperheading takes more skill. Copperhaeads are faster to place and are less bomber than a bolt.
So instead of placing an A1 bolt ladder next to a long seam, you have a scary set of heads.
From what I gather, aid climbing is an exercise in fear--why do a route if every move is easy A1, where is the thrill?
As for other silly climbing rules--I like the one that says "Pull down, not out."
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 26, 2015 - 08:54am PT
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So you are saying that bashing a hole in the rock to place shitty gear is better than drilling a hole to place good gear? that is exactly my point ;)
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big wall paul
Trad climber
tahoe, CA
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Jul 26, 2015 - 08:55am PT
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That head is more ethical than a bolt because you're using what the stone has offered to place a piece, and that one looks pretty darn bomber to me.
whereas a bolt can be placed virtually anywhere.
It kinda looks like the crack was widened by chipping out the sides, which is frowned upon, but perhaps it looks white due to sloppy chiseling of the head, not chipping.
Or maybe some of the hammer hits were direct, ie, not using the cold chisel.
But even if it was chipped intentionally, it's still more ethical than a bolt.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Jul 26, 2015 - 10:17am PT
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A climb gets only one first ascent, subsequent ascents have to deal with the actions and often ego driven tactics used by the first party. The quick fixes deployed whether for speed or style usually don't stand the test of time and the route needs to be updated. "Fair means" by the first party should remain approximately the same for later parties.
If a tactic appears that it will not stand repeated use, then why not encourage first ascent parties to use more permanent placements?
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big wall paul
Trad climber
tahoe, CA
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Jul 26, 2015 - 10:54am PT
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That mashy looks like it would withstand over a hundred clips.
And when it does fail, either by the cable fraying
or the mashy popping out, that party will just have to place another in it's place.
Such is the fun of doing classic nailing routes!
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 26, 2015 - 10:54am PT
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Ha, ha, > in this case that would have caused a real shitstorm:) This A4 line is 3ft left of a 10+ corner. I am not picking on this climb specifically. I just took the photo yesterday and thought it was a cool shot exposeing how stupid most of our rulze are. in this case chiseling a hole in the rock and bashing a piece of metal into it proved that one man was a bad ass yet annother equally respected man in the same state chiseled a single hold to keep a 6 pitch 5 easy climb from haveing a single point of aid or a single shut down move. this man was tarred feathered and flayed to within an inch of his life..
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 26, 2015 - 10:55am PT
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so essentually the bashie is a chipped hold:)
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jul 26, 2015 - 11:00am PT
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BURT BRONSON'S ethical sense sez: "Real men ought to use a shoulder stand from the top steps to avoid drilling."
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 26, 2015 - 11:33am PT
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and there are lots more stupid Rulze......
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kpinwalla2
Social climber
WA
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Jul 26, 2015 - 11:40am PT
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Another interesting application of climbing rules - in this case, the "no one can add/delete fixed protection after the first ascent, except by permission of the first ascentionist" rule. Suppose someone solos an unprotectable 5.9 slab for it's FA. By the "rules" no one can climb that route (forever) unless he/she also solos it. Applying this logic, someone like (an evil twin of) Alex Honnold could walk into a new area, solo dozens of routes and effectively prevent them from ever being repeated.
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big wall paul
Trad climber
tahoe, CA
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Jul 26, 2015 - 11:42am PT
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heh, the only way that bashy is a chipped hold is if some free climber plans on pulling on the wire to move past! Ouch, that would be painful.
Or am I missing your point?
comparing nailing routes to chipped holds for free climbs is comparing apples to oranges.
Nailing routes you bash pins and mashies in and sometimes scar the rock in the process, but as long as you don't drill new holes for bolts or bat hooks, it's ok.
Whereas we can all agree, chipping holds for a free route is definitely not good.
different rules for different climbs.
But I don't think they're stupid rules, just different.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 26, 2015 - 11:46am PT
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only in your minds are they different. in reality a chip in the rock is a chip in the rock...
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big wall paul
Trad climber
tahoe, CA
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Jul 26, 2015 - 11:47am PT
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Warbler:
using that logic, you're saying we should make the PO Wall a 3000' bolt ladder?
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big wall paul
Trad climber
tahoe, CA
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Jul 26, 2015 - 11:49am PT
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Tradman: I agree, but also they are different in the guidebook: one is a free climb, the other aid. so different rules for each: a chip on an aid route is fine, a chip on a free not.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 26, 2015 - 11:59am PT
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And that's stupid;)
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looks easy from here
climber
Ben Lomond, CA
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Jul 26, 2015 - 12:09pm PT
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Suppose someone solos an unprotectable 5.9 slab for it's FA. By the "rules" no one can climb that route (forever) unless he/she also solos it
What is "Granite Garden", Alex?
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Jul 26, 2015 - 12:16pm PT
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It's all the same to me if it's left in the wall after you pass.
How long it lasts matters to some.
Size doesn't matter, so I'm told, from others.
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big wall paul
Trad climber
tahoe, CA
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Jul 26, 2015 - 12:21pm PT
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Kpin:
yes, that's why most of Tuolumne is off limits to most climbers.
I like to bend that rule a little: I usually bring a hammer and a few pins on free climbs, just in case I find a section of climbing that is un-protectable with standard gear or existing fixed protection has fallen out.
Any piton I put in I leave fixed for future parties.
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perswig
climber
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Jul 26, 2015 - 03:16pm PT
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Are you bored, Nick?
And ... where'd you find the bashie?
Dale
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 26, 2015 - 03:40pm PT
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It is in the seam just left of my partner Ryans butt
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CCT
Trad climber
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Jul 26, 2015 - 03:46pm PT
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Big Wall Paul and KipinWalla speak truth.
Sad sad Tuolumne. So many good climbs. So many mediocre climbers who don't want to risk death on 5.9 and below.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 26, 2015 - 03:52pm PT
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Not picking on aid climbers just babeling about how st00pid our rulze are. How about the not grabbing the draw thing. I know a few folks who broke their ankles because it was drilled in to them that they are not allowed to grab the draw. FCK That! If i am sketched out and I get that sucker clipped to the bolt I will grab on to it until I get the rope clipped in. I can allways try annother time to get it clean unless I am on IR with a broken ankle because of some stupid rule.
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Edge
Trad climber
Betwixt and Between Nederland & Boulder, CO
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Jul 26, 2015 - 03:58pm PT
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Looks like a busy day on the VMC.
Bashie ethics aside, that looks like a ridiculously contrived aid line so close to a mega classic.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 26, 2015 - 04:03pm PT
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You could probobly reach up and clip it if you wern't so worried about your feet greasing off the wet slab.....
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The Call Of K2 Lou
Mountain climber
North Shore, BC
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Jul 26, 2015 - 04:14pm PT
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I only climb onsight free solo naked at night. I carry a backpack filled with rocks and breathe through a straw to combat any unforeseen advantages I may have gained.
Doing any less than that just means you're a poseur.
;P
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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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Jul 26, 2015 - 05:19pm PT
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Jul 26, 2015 - 05:32pm PT
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There are so many good well protected climbs that I have no issue with leaving climbs as their FA left them. If that means there are are some un-repeated contrivances out there, I am OK with that. I greatly prefer that proposition than one where ever generation feels entitled to re-interpret how much protection a climb should have. Bold test pieces that are under protected will fall into obscurity and fade away, maybe to one day be rediscovered by a future bold generation.
Chipping, chiseling, and other intentional rock modification is awful. If you are going to alter the rock, might as well sink a decent bolt. Trenched heads are as bad as chiseled holds.
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steveA
Trad climber
Wolfeboro, NH
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Jul 26, 2015 - 05:46pm PT
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Tradmanclimbs,
Just curious, are you saying that the bashie you posted a photo of, is just over the lip of the overhang, on the DD?
It must be a recent placement, as I was up there last year, and never noticed it. I hope they don't pound too hard in that seam, and have the whole flake break off, on top of them.
Glad the route is getting done, but I really can't understand why anyone would place a bashie there?
I bet few climbers who do the DD realize that the 3/8" bolt on the 4th pitch,
on the slab, above the overhang, was placed years after the 1st ascent. It was quite a committing lead BITD. I assume most people clip that bolt today.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 26, 2015 - 05:59pm PT
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Steve. It is right above the roof on P2 in that seam . I believe the route is called Rageing Rainbow and that pitch is rated A3+. Nail the seam straight up, thinner near the top. Bat hook over a small overlap to 2 bolt belay was the description in the Syks book. Even though I do think its a bit silly to have an aid pitch that close to a free pitch I am not specifically picking on this route or aid climbing. Just making fun of all our stupid rules...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 26, 2015 - 06:05pm PT
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On a related note Ryan told me he accidently fixed a cam on that pitch that was there for several years and then one spring it was at the base of the cliff. tells us that the whole thing flexes considerably when the seep freezes allowing the cam to fall out with the spring melt. nailing that seam very well could split it off and change the rout dramaticly. We need a rule for this!
;)
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steveA
Trad climber
Wolfeboro, NH
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Jul 26, 2015 - 06:17pm PT
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Tradman,
I guess when I'm dead and under the ground, all this stuff really won't matter. The next generation of climbers will create a whole new set of rules.
Re-read my previous post.
I bet you were glad to clip that bolt on the 4th pitch! On the 1st ascent, that slab was wet, and there was no pro. after the overhang. Glad I didn't peel!
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jul 26, 2015 - 06:28pm PT
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There are rules for narcissism? Really?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 26, 2015 - 06:33pm PT
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We were wimps and did not get that far. We waited a long time while the folks ahead of us worked the route and my rope gun lost his stoke. I have never been on it before and am not a very strong rock climber so was not up for leading P 3 after watching muscle bound tall skinny strong looking kids take multiple whips.. I was super stoked to get as far as we did and now have a bit more confidence that I could follow the climb. As far as that extra bolt goes its probobly fair to say that the route would not be anywhere near as populer as it is without that bolt. We all tremendously respect what you did on the FA but we are also very thankfull that you have allowed that bolt to stay!
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Jul 26, 2015 - 08:17pm PT
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That is a #1 beak placement.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Jul 27, 2015 - 04:43am PT
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Rules?
They make my day.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Jul 27, 2015 - 05:56am PT
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As for other silly climbing rules--I like the one that says "Pull down, not out."
What to do when chimneying on Half Dome?
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Andy Middleton
Trad climber
Cow Hampshire
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Jul 27, 2015 - 09:15am PT
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Trad - yes some rules are stoopid, and some are followed/not followed depending on the situation. But what you are advocating for in this instance is a line of bolts 3ft left of those classic corners. Kinda glad at least some rule was followed in this case... Also - are there any actual rules about chopping lines?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jul 27, 2015 - 09:50am PT
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The rule is do your best job to leave the challenge that nature presented in it's natural condition for other climbers to experience.
The rule isn't stupid. The placement didn't follow the rule.
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Gunkie
climber
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Jul 27, 2015 - 09:55am PT
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BURT BRONSON'S ethical sense sez: "Real men ought to use a shoulder stand from the top steps to avoid drilling."
Can't be BURT BRONSON; it should be written like, "REAL MEN OUGHT TO USE A SHOULDER STAND FROM THE TOP STEPS TO AVOID DRILLING."
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Gunkie
climber
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Jul 27, 2015 - 09:57am PT
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Tradman, been on Mordor Wall these days?
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jul 27, 2015 - 10:03am PT
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SO RIGHT!!!!
I WILL HAVE TO HARDEN MYSELF, THE F*#KUP.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jul 27, 2015 - 10:49am PT
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The rule isn't stupid. The placement didn't follow the rule.
Amen! Oh, and some of our "rules" seem stupid, particularly with hindsight.
I think Moof also gets it right. There are plenty of well-protected free climbs out there. I see no need to have every climb grid bolted. Dealing with runouts is part of the traditional climbing experience, and plenty of climbers still enjoy the fulfillment the traditional experience brings. To each his or her own.
John
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hellroaring
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Jul 27, 2015 - 12:06pm PT
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+1.on what John just stated...
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Jul 27, 2015 - 02:22pm PT
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I have a tradition of FAing all my routes with a buttplug, so I insist all that follow do the same.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jul 27, 2015 - 02:26pm PT
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Patrick Compton, most of these old farts would suck on your ground-breaking "Red Route," 5.13bpx.
My mousketeer hat is off to you, sir.
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CascadeOtto
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jul 27, 2015 - 03:18pm PT
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In my beginner climber days I was shamed into following the local Rule: He who is not driving to the mountains brings the beer.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Jul 27, 2015 - 03:45pm PT
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Patrick Compton, most of these old farts would suck on your ground-breaking "Red Route," 5.13bpx.
Its really this new gym climbin, sporto bouldering generation this is missing out by not following my traditon of buttplugs while sending the gnar.
kids these days climb like 12s after a year in the gym without ever even trying even a small buttplug. It is truly the downfall of climbing.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 27, 2015 - 04:15pm PT
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No way am I advocateing a bolt there. I simply took a picture of a manufactured placement and thought it would start a good discussion. The discussion is open to any and all of our rules. when you take a step back many of they are pretty damn silly. Especially a rule that allows a hard aid climber to chip a hold...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 27, 2015 - 05:13pm PT
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I actually generaly abide by most of the rules. One of my Rules that i actually believe in reasonably strongly is no squeeze jobs. That head definatly is a squeeze job. had they gone up annother body length before bashing it in I would never have seen it.
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drunkenmaster
Social climber
santa rosa
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Jul 27, 2015 - 09:28pm PT
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it would be delusional to think chipping a hold to free a route is anything other than cheating. all the aid bla bla - u can have my part of that :)
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drunkenmaster
Social climber
santa rosa
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Jul 28, 2015 - 01:29am PT
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i hope that was a joke ~ in which case :) lol
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 28, 2015 - 03:03am PT
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Interesting. the chipping incident that came to mind was a long time NH local with gobbs of back country FA's put up a 5 or 6 pitch 5.6 that had a single shutdown move on it. He wanted to keep it at the grade so he chipped a single hold. pretty much got reamed with wire brush over that one. now according to our silly climbing rules had he simply fired in an A0 bolt he would have been a hero. Now according to the same silly rules an aid climber can chip away at will and still be a hero..
take a step back and the rules seem pretty darn silly.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Jul 28, 2015 - 03:40am PT
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He wanted to keep it at the grade so he chipped a single hold.
He molested the rock in order to free climb it. Aid climbing with a hammer is murdering the rock at its worst or is an honest admission to ineptness and psychological dysfunction at the least. Even in prison the rules are that you are much better off being a murderer than a molester.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 28, 2015 - 03:47am PT
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He chipped the rock to keep it a beginner climb. this guy is by no means a beginner. Had he drilled a bolt to keep it a beginner climb no one would have cared. This is definatly a 1st world problem!
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Jul 28, 2015 - 04:56am PT
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Joe public could care less about a chipped hold, on a 5.6... lol!
From the road, probably a blasted road cut, joe public can see... chalk!
chalk does far more visual impact to the non-climber, but chalk is invisible to climbers.
but no one talks about chalk, it is just a given that it will be used as much as possible.
But a chipped, comfortized or glued hold.... Heresy!
Climbing is cute little club, and when in the club, you follow the rules.
but those rules are completely arbitrary.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 28, 2015 - 06:17am PT
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Most of the bolting referred to in this thread is for aid climbing. A VAST majority of the aid bolting in America has occured in California.....primarily in Yosemite. Nearly all bolting in the rest of the country has been to protect free climbs.....primarily sport routes.
So the bolt vs. chipped hold argument has to be put into context. Obviously, chipping a bolted sport/free route to change the grade would be compltetely unacceptable to nearly everyone.
conversely
When choosing between bolting or chipping an aid section, the assumption is made that it can't go free. Those assumptions are often found to be wrong. If the section in question was bolted it may eventually be free climbed with the bolts serving for protection. If the section is chipped it is forever changed and, if freed, is not the same climb, the architecture of the rock has been altered. Some might argue that bolting does the same, that the bolt wasn't there in the natural state. True, but concerning free climbing the bolt doesn't AID the climbing except in providing protection that wasn't previously there (read sport climbing). Chipped holds not only permanently mar the rock, they also forever change the nature of the climbing.
I have seen, BY FAR, more chipping in California than anywhere else. I have two theories about that:
1) The aid climbing mentality in Cali brought on by Yosemite Big Walls.
2) The feeling among climbers there during the free climbing explosion beginning in the early 70's that if they couldn't do a move sans chipping nobody ever wood. Hubris led to some notable modifications that we all know.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 28, 2015 - 07:27am PT
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Not CA bashing.just pointing out the facts. By the way, I was on the scene during Valley chipping in the 70's.....where were you?
Big wall climbing began in Ca. and the majority of it is in CA. Few people put up short aid routes they are almost exclusively reserved for bigger venues most of which are in Ca.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Jul 28, 2015 - 10:11am PT
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For all of the years that I have been climbing I have followed ONE RULERule #1 !
rule number one do not mess the place up. make everything better or keep your hands off, leave it alone , Do Not Touch, and redundancy, too, do not mess the place up,leave it alone, don't touch climb past leaving no trace. . .
Qhaving done this ,or as little as need be to be safe, I have been blessed to have places ,pristine, in the midst of urban chaos, all to myself.not that I am pure. I am not.
having transgressed a few times a loose but not dangerous hold here or there, all the way to using a car jack, it depends on the location and use by non-climbers that dictates.
I am not anti any style or means to climb something.
given the restrictions that are ad-heard to by popular
Or majority "agreement".
The, 'breaking' with the herd is problematic.
in a quarry. Or on crumbeling Rock, clean away till, it suites the climber who is putting in the effort.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jul 28, 2015 - 11:38am PT
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2) The feeling among climbers there during the free climbing explosion beginning in the early 70's that if they couldn't do a move sans chipping nobody ever would. Hubris led to some notable modifications that we all know.
Jim, I think that attitude has prevailed probably during all of the history of climbing. After all, Collie cut his famous step in Britain long before the Lunch Ledge ascent (the first "properly roped" climb in Yosemite Valley). The criticism of many contemporary bolted routes ultimately rests in a belief that we should leave problems we can't climb using traditional means, (meaning in Yosemite, ground-up, solely human-powered, etc.) to future generations. I remember Robbins making that very argument many decades ago about the Dawn Wall, but it applies with equal force to free climbing.
I guess that's why I like the First Ascent Principle he articulated. It allows freedom for several different styles to coexist.
John
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 28, 2015 - 04:00pm PT
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Some of My stupid climbing Rules.
#1 Don't f*#k up and die.
#2 have fun, be nice and respectful to people you meet while climbing.
#3 try to stay away from super busy areas on weekends.
#4 Don't let stupid rules get you hurt or killed. The Only time the stupid rules actually count is on an FA or FFA. Take a hang! You can always come back and try again if you stay healthy. See rule #1
#5 Don't mess with other folks routs.
#6 No squeeze jobs.
#7 respect other peoples projects/ red tags. see rule #2.
#8 always use stainless steel and make shure the hole is clean ;)
#9 only climb with people you actually like.
#10 not everything needs to be cleaned and climbed. that bright green moss is there for a reason..........
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Jul 28, 2015 - 08:26pm PT
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Tradman- I know you do cragging FA's.
Wondering how you feel about this scenario...
A good route that takes all gear except for the first 25 cruxy feet.
Place a bolt or discreetly exploit(manufacture) a small seam for a gear placement.
FYI- I'm not planning to do this but I've seen it done.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 29, 2015 - 03:04am PT
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thats an easy one. place the bolt. can't even fanthom going to the work of manufactureing a gear placement that most likly won't be bomber for a critical piece. It's also a classical example of how fcked up climbing rules are. Someone was so set on a rule (in their own mind) that did not allow bolts that they completly broke annother rule to get arround the first rule.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Jul 29, 2015 - 06:21am PT
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The third scenario would be to run it out to the first piece you sackless barney, it's only 5.9! :-)
I will say this- I'm ok with it.
The FAist was not anti bolt, just wanted to keep the line "natural".
Kinda like how a 99% sport route will often get that last 1% bolt, where gear would go, just so it's an "actual" sport route.
FAists...a..."unique" bunch. :-)
Here's a read about hold manufacturing.
http://www.rockandice.com/lates-news/making-the-grade?page=2
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Jul 29, 2015 - 07:53am PT
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Interesting stuff. A bunch of people were butthurt by Sean Jones rap bolting a section on the upper slab of Ground Up, in order to avoid ground up bolt ladder, which would than be moved to a spot that he top ropes and finds to be better. But we are all ok with giant poles and steps that are manufactured to the top of half dome.
I think it is important to follow an acceptable ethic for the area, obey the law, but also use common sense. Don't you have to apply to place/replace a single bolt in Yosemite and SEKI? But who follows that law? It is about climbing, pushing yourself to do more with less and not cause a shitshow.
Also, bolt ladders and chipped hold are both lame. Every time I placed a bolt and used it as a point of aid I felt like I am murdering the impossible. At all times I justified it as acceptable because it was a short section which hopefully can be free climbed in the future, but it did not make me feel happy.
Tradman, I follow a similar list of rules you have :)
Not picking on aid climbers j
Haha why not? Aid climbing is basically about chiseling and engineering your way up the terrain above your physical skills. Having the right gear is much more important than skills >:) fairly necessary evil.
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steveA
Trad climber
Wolfeboro, NH
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Jul 29, 2015 - 08:38am PT
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VitalityM,
"Haha why not? Aid climbing is basically about chiseling and engineering your way up the terrain above your physical skills. Having the right gear is much more important than skills >:) fairly necessary evil."
Are you saying that 99.9% of the climbers that climb the Nose or the Salathe
are lame because they can't do it all free?
You would see virtually nobody on El Cap if all aid were eliminated.
I might add that virtually all the routes I did the 1st ascent of in N.H. over 40 years ago, were mixed aid/free routes, primarily due to the fact that the cracks were full of dirt and lichen. Once all the crap was cleaned off, they were later free climbed.
We all stand on the shoulders of our predecessor's.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Jul 29, 2015 - 11:29am PT
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Are you saying that 99.9% of the climbers that climb the Nose or the Salathe
are lame because they can't do it all free?
No, I am making a sarcastic joke highlighting that there is a lot of silly ways to pass a judgement on the style that other climbers choose. Does not only involve climbing. I think, for many, it comes down to ego and the need to put the other people around down in order to validate own actions. :)
We are all going to hell. Enjoy your days on earth. Aid, free, train, drink beer, enjoy solitude, views of faraway summits with amigos, swim in lakes, get laid or watch baseball. Whatever. Follow your passion, use common sense and respect other people as much as possible.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jul 29, 2015 - 12:02pm PT
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Stupid-climbing Rules!!
I know this from experience.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jul 29, 2015 - 12:07pm PT
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Stupid-climbing Rules!!
I know this from experience.
LOL! Me, too.
John
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jul 29, 2015 - 12:08pm PT
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We are all going to hell. Enjoy your days on earth.
When that time comes, most of us will be rigging biner brakes.
Others will be breaking out their jumars, but most of those that do ain't climbers...
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Jul 30, 2015 - 09:20pm PT
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But we are all ok with giant poles and steps that are manufactured to the top of half dome.
Go chop that, in righteous indignation, and see if it makes the news. Hikers on top of Half Dome, WTF?
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big wall paul
Trad climber
tahoe, CA
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Jul 31, 2015 - 01:21am PT
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obviously that guy in NH should have placed a bolt and graded his climb 5.6 A0. It probably would have made the climb more popular, because parties would be thinking about that A0 move!
As for grabbing the draw (regarding a post earlier in the discussion), I'm all for that!
I am basically a 5.9 A0 climber, and that style has gotten me up some awesome 5.14 climbs.
Climbs are often like mountain bike rides: 97% ride-able and you walk around the other 3%.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 31, 2015 - 05:45am PT
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Paul. in reality what is the real difference? Drilling a hole and pounding a piece of metal into it, clipping nylon to it and grabbing said nylon makes him a hero in most climbers minds. Chipping a piece of rock off and grabbing the resulting hold makes him a zero in most climbers minds. You can't use the robbing the impossible and saveing it for future generations argument because the thousands of climbers who could do the move are not going to hike an hour and a half and climb 5 pitches of 5.6 to savor an easy boulder move. On the other hand the moderate climber out for a nice easy back country climb willingly grabs the manufactured hold and then passes judgment on the routes creator. It's a 1st world problem which brings me back to my origional point. stupid climbing rules..
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Jul 31, 2015 - 06:36am PT
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On the other hand the moderate climber out for a nice easy back country climb willingly grabs the manufactured hold and then passes judgment on the routes creator. It's a 1st world problem which brings me back to my origional point. stupid climbing rules..
FMG, third world problem, mutilation for what, again?
Don't chip holds for free climbing isn't a stupid climbing rule, there is no game if you do, unless the whole rating system gets thrown out as well.
Try Stupid climbing rules and ratings naxt.
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big wall paul
Trad climber
tahoe, CA
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Jul 31, 2015 - 02:14pm PT
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Trad: yes, I agree, both are instances of modifying the rock to gain upward progress. And silly of us to think either is better or worse than the other.
But obviously the NH guy had to do something to get past that spot. I remember even Dan Osman having drilled holes into routes to get past blank spots, and everyone respected him. Well, for the most part :). Shows how relative we apply our stupid climbing rules are. I don't see them as cut and dry, I see them as degrees of evil that we enact upon the stone, in an effort to provide progress up the route. Like all the bat hook holes you see alongside Offwidths -- deplorable they are, but there they are since someone couldn't get past that section of rock.
At least we are fairly respectful of the stone. heck, we better be since we worship it so much. I can't imagine living in another area where holes, chipping, glueing holds etc is more widespread.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jul 31, 2015 - 04:51pm PT
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1) Seek to scare yourself to gain character (plus, being scared is fun).
2) Seek to live through it, so that you gain the benefits of (1).
3) Start at the bottom and climb up using the features the rock presents in the ways that seem best to you, all things considered.
4) Be honest about what you did.
5) Employ your gains from (1) to endure the flack you will get from (4) because you broke somebody's rules from (3).
Rinse and repeat.
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JimT
climber
Munich
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I'm not really qualified to offer an opinion. But for comparison consider the wide variety of European rules (which range from "via ferrata" routes to the super-strict & perhaps insane "ethics" of Dresden [?] area crags.
Though it might (???) be a good idea, I don't imagine North America will be seeing construction of many via ferrata routes.
Via ferrata are nothing to do with rock climbing or mountaineering, they are roped tourism.
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